"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
I agree, seems unrealistic. They could do the sly little trick that Australia does do. Non residents arent able to access the tax free allowance. How about making the tax free allowance available only after two years of paying income tax?
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
I think making immigration unattractive is the whole point.
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
Presumably Farage also supports the reverse situation, where Brits who emigrate cannot take their kids and place them in local schools?
Mr. Eagles, if you believe the republic was superior, then Caesar is more to blame than any other man for ending it. If you believe the empire was better, the Golden Age began just over a century [from memory] after Caesar's death.
Yes, cheers for looking and I'm having a look around as well. It'd be interesting to know when the rules were tightened because it puts the various events/people in context.
Unless Shapps broke some law on what he should have declared as an MP in 2005, what is the point about dredging up stuff from ten years ago? I would have to check carefuly if asked what I was precisely doing 10 years ago.
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
Presumably Farage also supports the reverse situation, where Brits who emigrate cannot take their kids and place them in local schools?
In several countries I worked in I had to pay for private eductaion for my children so that they did not burden the state. My employer also paid up to £15,000 a year for a work permit.
Some systems are stable, like the Roman republic. The imperial approach had critical flaws (the donative being a major one, as well as the total lack of balance of power).
There's a case for directly electing the PM, and re-emphasising the hereditary aspect of the Lords to remove the hundreds of political appointments.
An English Parliament is a necessary step which cannot, I believe, be legitimately contested. Holding a referendum whenever significant changes to constitutional arrangement or foreign treaties would also be well worth exploring
But these things will likely not happen. They make sense, they'd strengthen the constitution but I do not believe they'd be considered acceptable amongst the metropolitan sorts.
Polybius' and Lycurgus' views on a balanced constitution (monarchy, aristocracy and democracy) are very interesting. These days only the latter is considered legitimate, but that assumes that the elite (aristocrats, or oligarchs) will not find other ways to channel their power if there is no official, transparent means to do so.
What particularly is wrong with the Israeli voting system? I have zero knowledge on the subject...
A little lesson on the subject: When Israel was declared independent it chose a PR system that had no checks or balance. Any party, and there were many, could set up lists, and know that there was no threshold to overcome.
In the early days its seemed to work as there were only 2 main parties both, of the left: Mapai (labour) and Mapam (an ultra socialist sort of party that loved Stalin). They set up a Knesset (parliament) of 120 seats, which was ok for a population of less than a million. Trouble is despite all the changes and a population approaching 8 million it no longer works.
The only change made is a threshold of 3%± (I'm not sure of the exact percentage, could be 2.5%) for a list to enter the Knesset. The number of seats is the same putting a stop to talent entering the arena. (I once sent a plan for an expanded Knesset of 260 seats to the government, but got no answer.)
Thats it in a nutshell. Any government party cannot, because of the seat numbers be more than 40 people, and because there are so many parties competing, if any party reaches 30± persons, thats a good day.
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
Presumably Farage also supports the reverse situation, where Brits who emigrate cannot take their kids and place them in local schools?
In several countries I worked in I had to pay for private eductaion for my children so that they did not burden the state. My employer also paid up to £15,000 a year for a work permit.
Many will make you purchase health insurance for at least a certain period of time as well, even if there is "free" health care e.g Canada will make you do that.
Mr. Eagles, no wonder, given all the mistakes it'd contain
Incidentally, after realising how long it'd been since I'd read some proper history, I've added to my mountain of books to read with Sallust. Looking forward to his musings on the Jugurthine War.
What particularly is wrong with the Israeli voting system? I have zero knowledge on the subject...
A little lesson on the subject: When Israel was declared independent it chose a PR system that had no checks or balance. Any party, and there were many, could set up lists, and know that there was no threshold to overcome.
In the early days its seemed to work as there were only 2 main parties both, of the left: Mapai (labour) and Mapam (an ultra socialist sort of party that loved Stalin). They set up a Knesset (parliament) of 120 seats, which was ok for a population of less than a million. Trouble is despite all the changes and a population approaching 8 million it no longer works.
The only change made is a threshold of 3%± (I'm not sure of the exact percentage, could be 2.5%) for a list to enter the Knesset. The number of seats is the same putting a stop to talent entering the arena. (I once sent a plan for an expanded Knesset of 260 seats to the government, but got no answer.)
Thats it in a nutshell. Any government party cannot, because of the seat numbers be more than 40 people, and because there are so many parties competing, if any party reaches 30± persons, thats a good day.
Thanks, so it is primarily because of the lack of a good threshold? I would have thought a PR system would encourage parties to work together in coalitions, like in Italy.
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
Why? Are people at private schools less likely to mix with immigrants than people at government schools? You are also assuming they are permanent immigrants. If they are not it doesn't matter that much.
So 52% of the electorate have not made their mind up and have to decide whether to stick with the devil we know as the country slowly recovers or put their future prosperity in the hands of Ed "Dwayne Dibley" and Ed "Browns Sidekick"
Not hard to see where this is going to go.....
Possibly the most important stat that has been posted here for a while.
Entirely in line with what you hear on the doorstep.
No love for anybody, but special derision for the two Eds.
Dosent surprise me. I think there will be a large chunk of Labour leaning voters who wont bother to get out of bed on voting day. Frankly anything could happen in this election except EICIPM.
I dont think you can entirely rule out 250 ukip mps crapping themselves on May 8th when they realise they have been elected and have to try and form a government. Unlikely but I think EICIPM is even more unlikely. We may be about to find out how good the top civil servants are and how good HM Queen is at getting politicians to form unlikely coalitions. My guess is that she will order Dave and Ed to form a grand coalition if we get a real stalemate.
If UKIP were to get 250 MPS then the civil service would do their best to try and make sure that nothing serious happens whilst UKIP were in power.
Mr. 1000, consider Rome under Vespasian, Trajan or Aurelian, and compare it to Rome under Domitian, Commodus and Elagabalus.
Or consider it at the height of the republic in the third century BC compared to the end of the republic when Milo and Clodius were roaming the streets.
Strong governments can be good or bad, but weak governments can only be bad. Do we want weak government handling negotiations with the EU, with control of our armed forces, with responsibility for our economy?
Mr. 1000, consider Rome under Vespasian, Trajan or Aurelian, and compare it to Rome under Domitian, Commodus and Elagabalus.
Or consider it at the height of the republic in the third century BC compared to the end of the republic when Milo and Clodius were roaming the streets.
Strong governments can be good or bad, but weak governments can only be bad. Do we want weak government handling negotiations with the EU, with control of our armed forces, with responsibility for our economy?
We want as little government as possible, with constitutional limits on what government should be able to do. It is disturbing that so many people believe democracy ("mob rule") is more important than the rights of citizens not to be molested by the government.
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
Presumably Farage also supports the reverse situation, where Brits who emigrate cannot take their kids and place them in local schools?
What is he going to suggest next?
That immigrants wear a distinctive badge sewn on their clothes, perhaps?
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
I don't think so. I would have thought immigrant's children who attend private school are more likely to integrate than those who go to state comp, by virtue of getting better jobs, having more money etc
Seems to me most problems with immigration stem from friction caused by economic strife rather than actual differences between immigrants and people already in the host country, that's why poorer people tend to be angry about immigration, although people unaffected by it like to think its because poor people are thicker than them
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
Why? Are people at private schools less likely to mix with immigrants than people at government schools? You are also assuming they are permanent immigrants. If they are not it doesn't matter that much.
All that would happen is that "uber cheap immigrant only" private schools would appear. And we'd have a bunch of 16 year olds without decent education who've never mixed with the native population.
Much more sensible to have a levy - say £2,000/year - for immigrants to allow their children to use the state system.
Always amazes me how much socialists attack tax payers....
Would be interesting to compare how much tax the current cabinet has paid in the past 10 years vs the current shadow cabinet.
We are in strange times, where successful people are desperately trying to hide their success, like posing in their second basic kitchen, rather than their main one that the hired help cooks the kids meals in. Cameron isn't much better.
Where as I notice Boris okayed that his sister outed that his family home has three kitchens...Interesting that also Boris was happy for people to look at this income, and took no shame in the fact he is paid well by the Telegraph to write his amusing articles.
Mr. Eagles, no wonder, given all the mistakes it'd contain
Incidentally, after realising how long it'd been since I'd read some proper history, I've added to my mountain of books to read with Sallust. Looking forward to his musings on the Jugurthine War.
I'm tempted to do a thread comparing Nick Clegg to the Emperor Honorius watching as the electoral Visigoths are about to sack the Lib Dems.
What particularly is wrong with the Israeli voting system? I have zero knowledge on the subject...
A little lesson on the subject: When Israel was declared independent it chose a PR system that had no checks or balance. Any party, and there were many, could set up lists, and know that there was no threshold to overcome.
In the early days its seemed to work as there were only 2 main parties both, of the left: Mapai (labour) and Mapam (an ultra socialist sort of party that loved Stalin). They set up a Knesset (parliament) of 120 seats, which was ok for a population of less than a million. Trouble is despite all the changes and a population approaching 8 million it no longer works.
The only change made is a threshold of 3%± (I'm not sure of the exact percentage, could be 2.5%) for a list to enter the Knesset. The number of seats is the same putting a stop to talent entering the arena. (I once sent a plan for an expanded Knesset of 260 seats to the government, but got no answer.)
Thats it in a nutshell. Any government party cannot, because of the seat numbers be more than 40 people, and because there are so many parties competing, if any party reaches 30± persons, thats a good day.
Thanks, so it is primarily because of the lack of a good threshold? I would have thought a PR system would encourage parties to work together in coalitions, like in Italy.
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
Why? Are people at private schools less likely to mix with immigrants than people at government schools? You are also assuming they are permanent immigrants. If they are not it doesn't matter that much.
All that would happen is that "uber cheap immigrant only" private schools would appear. And we'd have a bunch of 16 year olds without decent education who've never mixed with the native population.
Much more sensible to have a levy - say £2,000/year - for immigrants to allow their children to use the state system.
We could also have a flexible system, where certain key jobs e.g. doctor / nurse in the NHS, have these fees waived while they worked there.
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
Presumably Farage also supports the reverse situation, where Brits who emigrate cannot take their kids and place them in local schools?
What is he going to suggest next?
That immigrants wear a distinctive badge sewn on their clothes, perhaps?
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
Presumably Farage also supports the reverse situation, where Brits who emigrate cannot take their kids and place them in local schools?
What is he going to suggest next?
That immigrants wear a distinctive badge sewn on their clothes, perhaps?
A big owl to show they're a prat?
When an owl is mentioned, this image must be posted
What particularly is wrong with the Israeli voting system? I have zero knowledge on the subject...
A little lesson on the subject: When Israel was declared independent it chose a PR system that had no checks or balance. Any party, and there were many, could set up lists, and know that there was no threshold to overcome.
In the early days its seemed to work as there were only 2 main parties both, of the left: Mapai (labour) and Mapam (an ultra socialist sort of party that loved Stalin). They set up a Knesset (parliament) of 120 seats, which was ok for a population of less than a million. Trouble is despite all the changes and a population approaching 8 million it no longer works.
The only change made is a threshold of 3%± (I'm not sure of the exact percentage, could be 2.5%) for a list to enter the Knesset. The number of seats is the same putting a stop to talent entering the arena. (I once sent a plan for an expanded Knesset of 260 seats to the government, but got no answer.)
Thats it in a nutshell. Any government party cannot, because of the seat numbers be more than 40 people, and because there are so many parties competing, if any party reaches 30± persons, thats a good day.
Thanks, so it is primarily because of the lack of a good threshold? I would have thought a PR system would encourage parties to work together in coalitions, like in Italy.
Yes, 10 parties and a PR list system with a threshold of just 2% works fine in Denmark (including good 10-party debates!). The difference from Israel is that there are two broad alliances, so you're merely voting for your preferred shading of left or right, gently nudging the overall coalition in your preferred direction - for instance, you could vote for liberal economic policies combined with social liberalism and pacifism, or choose between centralist and non-centralist socialism. In my opinion it works better than FPTP (where the alliances are less explicit and you can't choose a flavour withiin them).
The problem in Israel is that opinion is fractured along several axes (religious, economic, ethnic, expansionism) so there aren't stable alliances and the parties have to scratch their heads and make up a pact after each election.That means that voters are playing guessing games.
But the real problem is the multi-dimensional division of opinion, not the electoral system.
Its got to be a bit dubious isn't it where a reporter claims to know more than the intelligence services? But anyway being threatened by a group that believes they are going to bring on the apocalypse (be first defeated and nearly wiped out by the 'anti messiah' before being saved by the return of Jesus) - well thats surely got to give us an edge.
I think his main job is as a lecturer in political science at Yale.
Clueless then.
IS is at its heart just the militia of Sunni Arabs. They have completely failed in their attempts to attack Kurdish and Shia areas let alone threaten us. Their much publicised foreign fighters of disaffected young males looking for some fun are a tiny fraction of their fighting strength. They might terrify us but their holier than thou attitude will eventually alienate them from the indigenous Sunni Arabs and they will be sent packing as the Arab tribes kicked them out last time. IS will devour itself of its own accord and a little border security and intelligence work will suffice for us. Good reason neighbouring Turkey and Israel remain not just non plussed but actively support them.
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
Presumably Farage also supports the reverse situation, where Brits who emigrate cannot take their kids and place them in local schools?
What is he going to suggest next?
That immigrants wear a distinctive badge sewn on their clothes, perhaps?
A big owl to show they're a prat?
When an owl is mentioned, this image must be posted
Is this news? I thought we already knew this already or is the argument that he was Mr Green for a few more months after being an MP?
Isn't the point that he lied about it, going so far as to start legal proceedings against someone who dared to suggest otherwise? Plus it was over a year later, not mere months. Then there's the dodginess of the company itself, which pretended to be a massive US based company when it was Shapps flogging stuff. The world of internet marketing is a decidedly dodgy one - it's the modern day version of the huckster snake oil salesman. There's a rather good documentary on them called 'Scamworld' and an article in The Verge on it. Of course what they do is rarely illegal, just highly immoral (in Shapps' case he sold a product that 'may constitute an act of fraud').
Frankly it's amazing that Shapps has risen as high as he has in the Tory party, probably because very few people understand exactly what it is he did, something he hasn't helped with by trying to cover his tracks. Hence the Graun beavering away at him - they know the whole thing stinks so will use each inconsistency in his story to repeat the allegations.
What particularly is wrong with the Israeli voting system? I have zero knowledge on the subject...
A little lesson on the subject: When Israel was declared independent it chose a PR system that had no checks or balance. Any party, and there were many, could set up lists, and know that there was no threshold to overcome.
In the early days its seemed to work as there were only 2 main parties both, of the left: Mapai (labour) and Mapam (an ultra socialist sort of party that loved Stalin). They set up a Knesset (parliament) of 120 seats, which was ok for a population of less than a million. Trouble is despite all the changes and a population approaching 8 million it no longer works.
The only change made is a threshold of 3%± (I'm not sure of the exact percentage, could be 2.5%) for a list to enter the Knesset. The number of seats is the same putting a stop to talent entering the arena. (I once sent a plan for an expanded Knesset of 260 seats to the government, but got no answer.)
Thats it in a nutshell. Any government party cannot, because of the seat numbers be more than 40 people, and because there are so many parties competing, if any party reaches 30± persons, thats a good day.
Thanks, so it is primarily because of the lack of a good threshold? I would have thought a PR system would encourage parties to work together in coalitions, like in Italy.
Yes, 10 parties and a PR list system with a threshold of just 2% works fine in Denmark (including good 10-party debates!). The difference from Israel is that there are two broad alliances, so you're merely voting for your preferred shading of left or right, gently nudging the overall coalition in your preferred direction - for instance, you could vote for liberal economic policies combined with social liberalism and pacifism, or choose between centralist and non-centralist socialism. In my opinion it works better than FPTP (where the alliances are less explicit and you can't choose a flavour withiin them).
The problem in Israel is that opinion is fractured along several axes (religious, economic, ethnic, expansionism) so there aren't stable alliances and the parties have to scratch their heads and make up a pact after each election.That means that voters are playing guessing games.
But the real problem is the multi-dimensional division of opinion, not the electoral system.
You missed out the main difference between Denmark and Israel. Israel is in a permanent state of war with those who wish to destroy it. Denmark can get away with wishy-washy governments. Israel can't.
Mr. Palmer, I find this unpleasant: "The difference from Israel is that there are two broad alliances, so you're merely voting for your preferred shading of left or right, gently nudging the overall coalition in your preferred direction..."
If the voters don't have a real choice, then democracy it is not.
It's that disillusionment with Westminster consensus that has seen UKIP flourish and has helped the SNP as well [although the SNP are substantially different in nature to UKIP, as is their rise].
What particularly is wrong with the Israeli voting system? I have zero knowledge on the subject...
A little lesson on the subject: When Israel was declared independent it chose a PR system that had no checks or balance. Any party, and there were many, could set up lists, and know that there was no threshold to overcome.
In the early days its seemed to work as there were only 2 main parties both, of the left: Mapai (labour) and Mapam (an ultra socialist sort of party that loved Stalin). They set up a Knesset (parliament) of 120 seats, which was ok for a population of less than a million. Trouble is despite all the changes and a population approaching 8 million it no longer works.
The only change made is a threshold of 3%± (I'm not sure of the exact percentage, could be 2.5%) for a list to enter the Knesset. The number of seats is the same putting a stop to talent entering the arena. (I once sent a plan for an expanded Knesset of 260 seats to the government, but got no answer.)
Thats it in a nutshell. Any government party cannot, because of the seat numbers be more than 40 people, and because there are so many parties competing, if any party reaches 30± persons, thats a good day.
Thanks, so it is primarily because of the lack of a good threshold? I would have thought a PR system would encourage parties to work together in coalitions, like in Italy.
Yes, 10 parties and a PR list system with a threshold of just 2% works fine in Denmark (including good 10-party debates!). The difference from Israel is that there are two broad alliances, so you're merely voting for your preferred shading of left or right, gently nudging the overall coalition in your preferred direction - for instance, you could vote for liberal economic policies combined with social liberalism and pacifism, or choose between centralist and non-centralist socialism. In my opinion it works better than FPTP (where the alliances are less explicit and you can't choose a flavour withiin them).
The problem in Israel is that opinion is fractured along several axes (religious, economic, ethnic, expansionism) so there aren't stable alliances and the parties have to scratch their heads and make up a pact after each election.That means that voters are playing guessing games.
But the real problem is the multi-dimensional division of opinion, not the electoral system.
You missed out the main difference between Denmark and Israel. Israel is in a permanent state of war with those who wish to destroy it. Denmark can get away with wishy-washy governments. Israel can't.
Sounds like it could do with a less wishy-washy voting system
"Think about how things have changed since 2008. Back then, I was the young, tech-savvy candidate of the future. Now I’m yesterday’s news and Hillary has got a server in her house. I didn’t even know you could have one of those in your house. I am so far behind. Did you know that? I would have gotten one."
Its got to be a bit dubious isn't it where a reporter claims to know more than the intelligence services? But anyway being threatened by a group that believes they are going to bring on the apocalypse (be first defeated and nearly wiped out by the 'anti messiah' before being saved by the return of Jesus) - well thats surely got to give us an edge.
I think his main job is as a lecturer in political science at Yale.
Clueless then.
IS is at its heart just the militia of Sunni Arabs. They have completely failed in their attempts to attack Kurdish and Shia areas let alone threaten us. Their much publicised foreign fighters of disaffected young males looking for some fun are a tiny fraction of their fighting strength. They might terrify us but their holier than thou attitude will eventually alienate them from the indigenous Sunni Arabs and they will be sent packing as the Arab tribes kicked them out last time. IS will devour itself of its own accord and a little border security and intelligence work will suffice for us. Good reason neighbouring Turkey and Israel remain not just non plussed but actively support them.
Did you read the article. I do not think it says what you think it says.
It should be a textbook swing seat, one that by now Labour ought to be poised to retake.
Cannock Chase in Staffordshire, 40 minutes north of Birmingham, is a working-class former mining area. The incumbent Tory MP, Aidan Burley, with a beatable majority of 3,195 , is standing down after supplying an SS uniform and insignia at a stag party.
Over two hours in the ward, not a single person who answered the door said they were planning to vote Labour.
Had a newsheet from Lib Dems pointing out that only the LDs can keep Labour out. Had do you want Teresa May to read your emails stuff, defending the NHS.
It should be a textbook swing seat, one that by now Labour ought to be poised to retake.
Cannock Chase in Staffordshire, 40 minutes north of Birmingham, is a working-class former mining area. The incumbent Tory MP, Aidan Burley, with a beatable majority of 3,195 , is standing down after supplying an SS uniform and insignia at a stag party.
Over two hours in the ward, not a single person who answered the door said they were planning to vote Labour.
Ed Miliband faces a shock in the Midlands — known as a bellwether for the election result — amid concerns that Labour is stretching resources too thinly across the region, local MPs have warned.
The party is attempting to wrestle control of 20 marginal seats across the East and West Midlands. In the event of a hung parliament, failure here could deprive Labour of the chance to be the largest party.
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
Presumably Farage also supports the reverse situation, where Brits who emigrate cannot take their kids and place them in local schools?
That is the norm for most European countries where I have worked. As a rule the British migrants put their kids into the local international school - which are very common all across Europe. It tends to be the only way their education is not severely damaged by having to take lessons in a foreign language.
It is less common with infants but very much the norm with seniors.
"Think about how things have changed since 2008. Back then, I was the young, tech-savvy candidate of the future. Now I’m yesterday’s news and Hillary has got a server in her house. I didn’t even know you could have one of those in your house. I am so far behind. Did you know that? I would have gotten one."
Talking of tech-savvy, can PB.com not have a favicon? At the moment it parasitises from other sites; mine has pretended to be BT for a year but now thinks it is Gmail.
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
I don't think so. I would have thought immigrant's children who attend private school are more likely to integrate than those who go to state comp, by virtue of getting better jobs, having more money etc
Seems to me most problems with immigration stem from friction caused by economic strife rather than actual differences between immigrants and people already in the host country, that's why poorer people tend to be angry about immigration, although people unaffected by it like to think its because poor people are thicker than them
You're assuming that migrants would be joining good quality established style of private schools. Private schools currently have to be good because they've realistically got to be better than state comps or why would people choose to pay fees when they could just go to a comp for free?
However instead if poor migrants were blocked from state comps they'd be forced into newly established alternatives that have no state comp alternative they need to beat. They'd almost certainly be far more religious too than current state ones.
"Think about how things have changed since 2008. Back then, I was the young, tech-savvy candidate of the future. Now I’m yesterday’s news and Hillary has got a server in her house. I didn’t even know you could have one of those in your house. I am so far behind. Did you know that? I would have gotten one."
Talking of tech-savvy, can PB.com not have a favicon? At the moment it parasitises from other sites; mine has pretended to be BT for a year but now thinks it is Gmail.
I accept this is a bit of a first-world problem.
Yeah, it's not like I've not got better things to do...
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
Presumably Farage also supports the reverse situation, where Brits who emigrate cannot take their kids and place them in local schools?
In several countries I worked in I had to pay for private eductaion for my children so that they did not burden the state. My employer also paid up to £15,000 a year for a work permit.
In the EU you would be paying the local country's taxes and thus contributing to the costs of your childrens education. Its the same here.
I note that EU regulations state that if you are in receipt of a State Pension from one EEA member state but resident in another, your healthcare should be covered by the state that pays your pension.
What about children of mixed British and immigrant couples (like, oh I don't know, the Farages for example)? Do they only have to wait two and a half years before they can use state schools?
Today I had a newsheet from Lib Dems pointing out that only the LDs can keep Labour out. Had the bar chart 48% LD, 28% Labour, 17% Con, and c. 4% Green.
Headlines include - do you want Teresa May to read your emails stuff, defending the NHS. Not much on Labour trashing the economy, that was left to the targeted postcard last week. Points out Cons are 100 - 1 outsiders with Ladbrooks, and that 'many Conservative voters are now saying they will back Stephen Williams.'
Might explain lack of postcards, and leaflets from the Blue team, though it may be wishful thinking.
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
Presumably Farage also supports the reverse situation, where Brits who emigrate cannot take their kids and place them in local schools?
In several countries I worked in I had to pay for private eductaion for my children so that they did not burden the state. My employer also paid up to £15,000 a year for a work permit.
In the EU you would be paying the local country's taxes and thus contributing to the costs of your childrens education. Its the same here.
I note that EU regulations state that if you are in receipt of a State Pension from one EEA member state but resident in another, your healthcare should be covered by the state that pays your pension.
Not sure that's true. I did a bit of research on moving to Belgium when I retire and the situation appears to be that to be covered by the Belgian insurance-based healthcare system you have to be employed (you pay and so does your employer) or claiming social security (which then pays). It doesn't matter which country pays the social security though so British pensioner in receipt of State pension would get their healthcare covered, but not if they only received a company or private pension.
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
I don't think so. I would have thought immigrant's children who attend private school are more likely to integrate than those who go to state comp, by virtue of getting better jobs, having more money etc
Seems to me most problems with immigration stem from friction caused by economic strife rather than actual differences between immigrants and people already in the host country, that's why poorer people tend to be angry about immigration, although people unaffected by it like to think its because poor people are thicker than them
You're assuming that migrants would be joining good quality established style of private schools. Private schools currently have to be good because they've realistically got to be better than state comps or why would people choose to pay fees when they could just go to a comp for free?
However instead if poor migrants were blocked from state comps they'd be forced into newly established alternatives that have no state comp alternative they need to beat. They'd almost certainly be far more religious too than current state ones.
They would be unlikely to be poor migrants if they had passed the test to qualify for a visa I think that is the point
Its got to be a bit dubious isn't it where a reporter claims to know more than the intelligence services? But anyway being threatened by a group that believes they are going to bring on the apocalypse (be first defeated and nearly wiped out by the 'anti messiah' before being saved by the return of Jesus) - well thats surely got to give us an edge.
I think his main job is as a lecturer in political science at Yale.
Clueless then.
IS is at its heart just the militia of Sunni Arabs. They have completely failed in their attempts to attack Kurdish and Shia areas let alone threaten us. Their much publicised foreign fighters of disaffected young males looking for some fun are a tiny fraction of their fighting strength. They might terrify us but their holier than thou attitude will eventually alienate them from the indigenous Sunni Arabs and they will be sent packing as the Arab tribes kicked them out last time. IS will devour itself of its own accord and a little border security and intelligence work will suffice for us. Good reason neighbouring Turkey and Israel remain not just non plussed but actively support them.
Did you read the article. I do not think it says what you think it says.
Having read it now it is better than most, too much on the usual loudmouths living in the West though.
"Farage said it was a “difficult” issue and that it was not a manifesto pledge. But he said his personal view was that immigrants would only bring their dependents after a period of time and after that he would not envisage their children being allowed to go straight into state schools."
So you're supposed to leave your kids behind when emigrating to the UK. Doesn't sound like an attractive proposition....
Presumably Farage also supports the reverse situation, where Brits who emigrate cannot take their kids and place them in local schools?
In several countries I worked in I had to pay for private eductaion for my children so that they did not burden the state. My employer also paid up to £15,000 a year for a work permit.
In the EU you would be paying the local country's taxes and thus contributing to the costs of your childrens education. Its the same here.
I note that EU regulations state that if you are in receipt of a State Pension from one EEA member state but resident in another, your healthcare should be covered by the state that pays your pension.
Not sure that's true. I did a bit of research on moving to Belgium when I retire and the situation appears to be that to be covered by the Belgian insurance-based healthcare system you have to be employed (you pay and so does your employer) or claiming social security (which then pays). It doesn't matter which country pays the social security though so British pensioner in receipt of State pension would get their healthcare covered, but not if they only received a company or private pension.
Wasn't there some issue in France, where a load of ex-pats where told that unless they were contributing equivalent of NI (or had x years worth), they weren't entitled to free health care anymore?
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
Why? Are people at private schools less likely to mix with immigrants than people at government schools? You are also assuming they are permanent immigrants. If they are not it doesn't matter that much.
All that would happen is that "uber cheap immigrant only" private schools would appear. And we'd have a bunch of 16 year olds without decent education who've never mixed with the native population.
Much more sensible to have a levy - say £2,000/year - for immigrants to allow their children to use the state system.
That seems entirely reasonable to me. I don't know if it would comply with EU law, though.
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
I don't think so. I would have thought immigrant's children who attend private school are more likely to integrate than those who go to state comp, by virtue of getting better jobs, having more money etc
Seems to me most problems with immigration stem from friction caused by economic strife rather than actual differences between immigrants and people already in the host country, that's why poorer people tend to be angry about immigration, although people unaffected by it like to think its because poor people are thicker than them
You're assuming that migrants would be joining good quality established style of private schools. Private schools currently have to be good because they've realistically got to be better than state comps or why would people choose to pay fees when they could just go to a comp for free?
However instead if poor migrants were blocked from state comps they'd be forced into newly established alternatives that have no state comp alternative they need to beat. They'd almost certainly be far more religious too than current state ones.
They would be unlikely to be poor migrants if they had passed the test to qualify for a visa I think that is the point
If you don't want competition in the workforce, don't get educated.
"Think about how things have changed since 2008. Back then, I was the young, tech-savvy candidate of the future. Now I’m yesterday’s news and Hillary has got a server in her house. I didn’t even know you could have one of those in your house. I am so far behind. Did you know that? I would have gotten one."
Talking of tech-savvy, can PB.com not have a favicon? At the moment it parasitises from other sites; mine has pretended to be BT for a year but now thinks it is Gmail.
I accept this is a bit of a first-world problem.
Yeah, it's not like I've not got better things to do...
I thought that was something to do with my Chrome setup! PB pretends to be The Cloud, presumably from reading it in Wetherspoons. It's not alone though, at the moment my Virgin mail is some sort of animal, possibly a lion or tiger, I have no idea where that came from.
As an aside, has anybody else been watching Israeli politics? It looks like Netanyahu is about to be evicted from office, after calling an unnecessary election.
Oh I've got him staying in as PM on the electiongame. Knesset is on a knife efdge though so wouldn't take much switching for the centre-left bloc to get in.
It looks like Likud could be as many 6 seats behind Zionist Union - its 24-26 against 20-22. Given Netanyahu has managed to really upset most of the political partners on the tight of the electoral spectrum in Israel (and 70% of Israelis now think he should go), we are likely to see a change of PM.
Very interesting, and almost totally unremarked on in the UK press.
It seems to me that neither Likud or Zionist Union will be able to create a coalition with a majority of 61+.
The Netanyahu hardliners might get 22 Likud, 24 the three religious parties, 5 Otna/Yachad, 5 Lieberman? - that's 56..
The Herzog middle of the road secular parties might get 26 ZU, 12 Lapid, 5 Meretz, 8 Kulanu - that's 51
Holding the balance of power is the combined Arab party with 13! The SNP of Israel!
It is eerily familiar.
The possibilities are a) a Herzog/Arab coalition with 64. Unheard of and highly risky. (Lab/SNP) b) a grand coalition between Herzog and Netanyahu with Herzog as boss. (Con/Lab) Won't last long. c) another election d) a surprise.
What abouty a minority government, tolerated by religious parties for being nice about the devout and by secular parties for being helpful to low-income people, even if the parties woudln't get into bed together?
It's not that straightforward. Two big issues that divide the blocks are the settlements issue and the Haredi issue. The Haredis are about 10% of the population, fast growing (6 children per family) and are excused enlistment and get a lot of benefits because many study rather than work. They are resented by many other Israelis. A minority government can work if things are basically stable and non-contentious but I don't think it's like that in Israel. But I'm no expert and have no experience of Israel at all!
I think a minority government would come under my category d) - i.e. a surprise.
What about children of mixed British and immigrant couples (like, oh I don't know, the Farages for example)? Do they only have to wait two and a half years before they can use state schools?
That's not a hard one to answer. Children of a British parent, either one, are automatically treat as British, which in fact they are.
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
I don't think so. I would have thought immigrant's children who attend private school are more likely to integrate than those who go to state comp, by virtue of getting better jobs, having more money etc
Seems to me most problems with immigration stem from friction caused by economic strife rather than actual differences between immigrants and people already in the host country, that's why poorer people tend to be angry about immigration, although people unaffected by it like to think its because poor people are thicker than them
You're assuming that migrants would be joining good quality established style of private schools. Private schools currently have to be good because they've realistically got to be better than state comps or why would people choose to pay fees when they could just go to a comp for free?
However instead if poor migrants were blocked from state comps they'd be forced into newly established alternatives that have no state comp alternative they need to beat. They'd almost certainly be far more religious too than current state ones.
They would be unlikely to be poor migrants if they had passed the test to qualify for a visa I think that is the point
If you don't want competition in the workforce, don't get educated.
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
Why? Are people at private schools less likely to mix with immigrants than people at government schools? You are also assuming they are permanent immigrants. If they are not it doesn't matter that much.
All that would happen is that "uber cheap immigrant only" private schools would appear. And we'd have a bunch of 16 year olds without decent education who've never mixed with the native population.
Much more sensible to have a levy - say £2,000/year - for immigrants to allow their children to use the state system.
That seems entirely reasonable to me. I don't know if it would comply with EU law, though.
I was working on the theory that this was post-Brexit. Nevertheless, a simple levy on all those whose parents have not been resident for five years or paid five years NI ever, doesn't sound absurd.
It does seem that our government - unlike the Italians, for example - has done next to nothing to think creatively about how to stop benefit tourism.
What about children of mixed British and immigrant couples (like, oh I don't know, the Farages for example)? Do they only have to wait two and a half years before they can use state schools?
I imagine that if one were born here to a British parent, one would have access to the State system.
Today I had a newsheet from Lib Dems pointing out that only the LDs can keep Labour out. Had the bar chart 48% LD, 28% Labour, 17% Con, and c. 4% Green.
Headlines include - do you want Teresa May to read your emails stuff, defending the NHS. Not much on Labour trashing the economy, that was left to the targeted postcard last week. Points out Cons are 100 - 1 outsiders with Ladbrooks, and that 'many Conservative voters are now saying they will back Stephen Williams.'
Might explain lack of postcards, and leaflets from the Blue team, though it may be wishful thinking.
Who are these "many voters" - do they quote anyone in particular ?
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
Why? Are people at private schools less likely to mix with immigrants than people at government schools? You are also assuming they are permanent immigrants. If they are not it doesn't matter that much.
All that would happen is that "uber cheap immigrant only" private schools would appear. And we'd have a bunch of 16 year olds without decent education who've never mixed with the native population.
Much more sensible to have a levy - say £2,000/year - for immigrants to allow their children to use the state system.
That seems entirely reasonable to me. I don't know if it would comply with EU law, though.
I was working on the theory that this was post-Brexit. Nevertheless, a simple levy on all those whose parents have not been resident for five years or paid five years NI ever, doesn't sound absurd.
It does seem that our government - unlike the Italians, for example - has done next to nothing to think creatively about how to stop benefit tourism.
The Italians have always had a good way of stopping benefit tourism, its called red tape. You can't start the process unless you turn up with all documents in triplicate on the first Thursday of the month, between 9 and 11am....If there is even one typo / spelling mistakes, you then have to wait until next month.
Then you come back on the 3rd Friday of the month for a face to face conversation, where you must be able to provide all the information perfectly......
etc etc etc
Unless your brothers friends wife works at the benefits office, then no problem just pop around there and get your paperwork filled in and stamped....just don't forget to take a bottle.
Always amazes me how much socialists attack tax payers....
Would be interesting to compare how much tax the current cabinet has paid in the past 10 years vs the current shadow cabinet.
Compare the current cabinet, with members of the previous Labour cabinet. That will be a real eye opener.
Boris vs "Red" Ken was most enlightening. One paid an incredible amount of tax and took basically not steps to minimize his bill and the other, well couldn't have been more polar opposite.
Wouldn't that reduce the chances of integration, rather than increase it?
I don't think so. I would have thought immigrant's children who attend private school are more likely to integrate than those who go to state comp, by virtue of getting better jobs, having more money etc
Seems to me most problems with immigration stem from friction caused by economic strife rather than actual differences between immigrants and people already in the host country, that's why poorer people tend to be angry about immigration, although people unaffected by it like to think its because poor people are thicker than them
You're assuming that migrants would be joining good quality established style of private schools. Private schools currently have to be good because they've realistically got to be better than state comps or why would people choose to pay fees when they could just go to a comp for free?
However instead if poor migrants were blocked from state comps they'd be forced into newly established alternatives that have no state comp alternative they need to beat. They'd almost certainly be far more religious too than current state ones.
I don't think significant numbers of poor migrants with children are envisaged (don't forget we are talking a post EU free movement of labour scenario ) and those that are would probably be required to accommodated either by expecting their employers to pay for their childrens education or through specific refugee / asylum schemes. The main assumption would likely be there wouldn't be many poor immigrants coming here with children. Hence they wouldn't have a significant impact on the quality of schools.
BTW: does anybody like the way the SPIN live odds box now shows different parties seats?
I've taught myself some new Javascript today :-) (And improved my Python somewhat)
I really disliked learning JavaScript and have promptly forgotten it all. Depending on your ability and what you plan on using Python for I would recommend the Real Python course and also Python Programming for Absolute Beginners. It is my favourite language.
Who is the correct tactical vote for in Thanet South though - obviously we all know it's for the Conservatives but Labour will be fighting hard here as they're in with enough of a chance to make a decent effort.
Comments
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/15/grant-shapps-admits-he-had-second-job-as-millioniare-web-marketer-while-mp
Its starting to get ridiculous now.
PR leads to fragmented parties, each catering to a little niche. Strong government becomes more difficult and political self-interest is exacerbated.
God bless them Victorian plunderers. Where would the finest treasures of the Middle East be without them, eh?
Some systems are stable, like the Roman republic. The imperial approach had critical flaws (the donative being a major one, as well as the total lack of balance of power).
There's a case for directly electing the PM, and re-emphasising the hereditary aspect of the Lords to remove the hundreds of political appointments.
An English Parliament is a necessary step which cannot, I believe, be legitimately contested. Holding a referendum whenever significant changes to constitutional arrangement or foreign treaties would also be well worth exploring
But these things will likely not happen. They make sense, they'd strengthen the constitution but I do not believe they'd be considered acceptable amongst the metropolitan sorts.
Polybius' and Lycurgus' views on a balanced constitution (monarchy, aristocracy and democracy) are very interesting. These days only the latter is considered legitimate, but that assumes that the elite (aristocrats, or oligarchs) will not find other ways to channel their power if there is no official, transparent means to do so.
Bit rambly [I'm tired].
When Israel was declared independent it chose a PR system that had no checks or balance. Any party, and there were many, could set up lists, and know that there was no threshold to overcome.
In the early days its seemed to work as there were only 2 main parties both, of the left: Mapai (labour) and Mapam (an ultra socialist sort of party that loved Stalin). They set up a Knesset (parliament) of 120 seats, which was ok for a population of less than a million. Trouble is despite all the changes and a population approaching 8 million it no longer works.
The only change made is a threshold of 3%± (I'm not sure of the exact percentage, could be 2.5%) for a list to enter the Knesset. The number of seats is the same putting a stop to talent entering the arena. (I once sent a plan for an expanded Knesset of 260 seats to the government, but got no answer.)
Thats it in a nutshell. Any government party cannot, because of the seat numbers be more than 40 people, and because there are so many parties competing, if any party reaches 30± persons, thats a good day.
For anyone that would like to play, the game closes at 7pm tomorrow:
http://www.electiongame.co.uk/israel15/
Game includes links to opinion polls, background on parties etc.
Interesting discussion on Israel below - I won't say what I think is going to happen while the game is still open!
For the record, the Israeli system is closed-list PR with the whole country as a single constituency, and a threshold of 3.25%, up from 2% in 2013.
Many thanks,
DC
Incidentally, after realising how long it'd been since I'd read some proper history, I've added to my mountain of books to read with Sallust. Looking forward to his musings on the Jugurthine War.
Or consider it at the height of the republic in the third century BC compared to the end of the republic when Milo and Clodius were roaming the streets.
Strong governments can be good or bad, but weak governments can only be bad. Do we want weak government handling negotiations with the EU, with control of our armed forces, with responsibility for our economy?
http://artdaily.com/news/44517/Statues-Devastated-in-World-War-II-Go-on-Show-at-the-Pergamon-Museum-in-Berlin#.VQX8VRBFDqA
Would be interesting to compare how much tax the current cabinet has paid in the past 10 years vs the current shadow cabinet.
That immigrants wear a distinctive badge sewn on their clothes, perhaps?
Seems to me most problems with immigration stem from friction caused by economic strife rather than actual differences between immigrants and people already in the host country, that's why poorer people tend to be angry about immigration, although people unaffected by it like to think its because poor people are thicker than them
Much more sensible to have a levy - say £2,000/year - for immigrants to allow their children to use the state system.
Where as I notice Boris okayed that his sister outed that his family home has three kitchens...Interesting that also Boris was happy for people to look at this income, and took no shame in the fact he is paid well by the Telegraph to write his amusing articles.
Poor Stilicho. Reminds me, I ought to buy a biography of him.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/20/article-2662719-1EEE326200000578-499_634x359.jpg
The problem in Israel is that opinion is fractured along several axes (religious, economic, ethnic, expansionism) so there aren't stable alliances and the parties have to scratch their heads and make up a pact after each election.That means that voters are playing guessing games.
But the real problem is the multi-dimensional division of opinion, not the electoral system.
IS is at its heart just the militia of Sunni Arabs. They have completely failed in their attempts to attack Kurdish and Shia areas let alone threaten us. Their much publicised foreign fighters of disaffected young males looking for some fun are a tiny fraction of their fighting strength. They might terrify us but their holier than thou attitude will eventually alienate them from the indigenous Sunni Arabs and they will be sent packing as the Arab tribes kicked them out last time. IS will devour itself of its own accord and a little border security and intelligence work will suffice for us. Good reason neighbouring Turkey and Israel remain not just non plussed but actively support them.
Justin Hinchcliffe, chair of Tottenham Conservatives, has written to voters in the neighbouring north London constituency of Hornsey and Wood Green to tell them to vote for Lynne Featherstone, the sitting Lib Dem MP.
Her Tory rival is simply “a paper candidate” who does not even believe he himself has a chance of winning, Mr Hinchcliffe said.
Frankly it's amazing that Shapps has risen as high as he has in the Tory party, probably because very few people understand exactly what it is he did, something he hasn't helped with by trying to cover his tracks. Hence the Graun beavering away at him - they know the whole thing stinks so will use each inconsistency in his story to repeat the allegations.
Here's The Verge article: http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/10/2984893/scamworld-get-rich-quick-schemes-mutate-into-an-online-monster
Israel is in a permanent state of war with those who wish to destroy it.
Denmark can get away with wishy-washy governments. Israel can't.
If the voters don't have a real choice, then democracy it is not.
It's that disillusionment with Westminster consensus that has seen UKIP flourish and has helped the SNP as well [although the SNP are substantially different in nature to UKIP, as is their rise].
Anyway, I'm off for the night.
"Think about how things have changed since 2008. Back then, I was the young, tech-savvy candidate of the future. Now I’m yesterday’s news and Hillary has got a server in her house. I didn’t even know you could have one of those in your house. I am so far behind. Did you know that? I would have gotten one."
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAK6R9mWMAEGEEe.jpg
Was tipped as a UKIP possible.. at 250/1
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/577229446941388800
It is less common with infants but very much the norm with seniors.
I accept this is a bit of a first-world problem.
However instead if poor migrants were blocked from state comps they'd be forced into newly established alternatives that have no state comp alternative they need to beat. They'd almost certainly be far more religious too than current state ones.
I note that EU regulations state that if you are in receipt of a State Pension from one EEA member state but resident in another, your healthcare should be covered by the state that pays your pension.
Today I had a newsheet from Lib Dems pointing out that only the LDs can keep Labour out. Had the bar chart 48% LD, 28% Labour, 17% Con, and c. 4% Green.
Headlines include - do you want Teresa May to read your emails stuff, defending the NHS. Not much on Labour trashing the economy, that was left to the targeted postcard last week. Points out Cons are 100 - 1 outsiders with Ladbrooks, and that 'many Conservative voters are now saying they will back Stephen Williams.'
Might explain lack of postcards, and leaflets from the Blue team, though it may be wishful thinking.
Is that the proposal?
I think a minority government would come under my category d) - i.e. a surprise.
It does seem that our government - unlike the Italians, for example - has done next to nothing to think creatively about how to stop benefit tourism.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/577234059711156224
I've taught myself some new Javascript today :-) (And improved my Python somewhat)
Then you come back on the 3rd Friday of the month for a face to face conversation, where you must be able to provide all the information perfectly......
etc etc etc
Unless your brothers friends wife works at the benefits office, then no problem just pop around there and get your paperwork filled in and stamped....just don't forget to take a bottle.
I really disliked learning JavaScript and have promptly forgotten it all. Depending on your ability and what you plan on using Python for I would recommend the Real Python course and also Python Programming for Absolute Beginners. It is my favourite language.