Nick Griffin doesn't seem to know what a terrorist is.
According to his Wikipedia biog, he was the co-founder of Umkhonto we Sizwe and instigator of the armed struggle. Surely that makes him a (former) terrorist?
In the Riviona trial Mandela was convicted of planning armed attacks with the cadres of the South African Communist party, but I think that there is no evidence of personal involvement in such attacks.
He also made a point of opposing violence when democratic means became possible. The difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is not just one of perspective. A terrorist is one who resorts to violence despite normal political processes being possibe. A freedom fighter is one who cannot act via democratic or peaceful means such as strikes or protests. The other distinction must be about targetting.
Hence French Resistance are freedom fighters, IRA are terrorists, or at least were until they accepted the Good Friday agreement.
According to his Wikipedia biog, he was the co-founder of Umkhonto we Sizwe and instigator of the armed struggle. Surely that makes him a (former) terrorist?
The State v. Nelson Mandela et al, Supreme Court of South Africa, Transvaal Provincial Division, 1963-1964
Mandela pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence, including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns which planted bombs in public places such as the Johannesburg railway station.
President P.W. Botha, on a number of occasions, offered Nelson Mandela freedom from prison, if he would only renounce terrorist violence. Mandela refused to do so.
On the subject of catnatgate, may I just say that I think James fights his corner valiantly, and against considerable odds, often with 5 or 10 opponents against him. If the Yes campaign have more like him, I wouldn't count against them winning the referendum. But, having now read his article on Scot goes pop, I do think the whole thing is getting a little personal, on both sides, and, to me, a little tedious. Can't we have some more 80s pop or something?
, have you apologised to Lucinda Creighton yet, by the way?
On what planet am I responsible for the BBC's reporting?
Has Salmond apologised for his "automatic membership claims"?
As well as "not asking the EU" about membership it appears we can add "not asking the Treasury" about the sterling zone to the list:
THE Scottish Government has so far failed to contact the Treasury to discuss details of its plan for a currency union in the event of independence, it has emerged
Nick Griffin doesn't seem to know what a terrorist is.
According to his Wikipedia biog, he was the co-founder of Umkhonto we Sizwe and instigator of the armed struggle. Surely that makes him a (former) terrorist?
In the Riviona trial Mandela was convicted of planning armed attacks with the cadres of the South African Communist party, but I think that there is no evidence of personal involvement in such attacks.
He also made a point of opposing violence when democratic means became possible. The difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is not just one of perspective. A terrorist is one who resorts to violence despite normal political processes being possibe. A freedom fighter is one who cannot act via democratic or peaceful means such as strikes or protests. The other distinction must be about targetting.
Hence French Resistance are freedom fighters, IRA are terrorists, or at least were until they accepted the Good Friday agreement.
In addition, Mandela didn't just not target civilians, he took active effort to try to make sure civilians weren't in buildings when they bombed them. Thus, he wasn't using terror as a weapon and was not a terrorist.
I don't know - I've googled the leading Danish newspaper Belingske Tidende and the national TV website http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre_sprog/English/index.htm and neither has got anything about it. Reading the item you forwarded, it sounds to me like the negotiating squabbles that we see regularly in Britain between governments and teachers' unions - the sabre-rattling doesn't usually lead to anything very definite. I'm suspicious of the 90% figure - it's the sort of stat that pressure groups produce and it usually turns out to be "of those who answered our survey asking for support" (in this case it seems to be based on doctors attending a meeting in one suburb of Copenhagen). But I don't know anything about it - it might be more serious than I think.
Carlotta : well if the English FA Cup final could be played in Cardiff for several years, I see no reason why the Scottish Fashion Awards shouldn't go on tour as well.
True story: my sister was watching the (rather splendid) Road to Referendum : 1945-1974 earlier tonight, and asked me "so did Scotland lose its independence in 1945?"
One thing that worries me about the Scottish referendum is the possibility of a very close result. At the moment the possible outcome would seem to be anything from a thumping no, (possible), through a narrowish no, (more than likely), to a narrow yes, (again possible, well unlikely but for the sake of argument....)
If the result is a very narrow no then it doesn't close the door for the SNP to try again in a few years time, but what if it's 51/49 yes? Sure yes means yes, but if that happens it's probable that large parts of the country have voted against. It's a one way ticket to independence with a lot of unhappy people who won't ever get another chance to change it. Would the more volatile unionists a la Rangers fans and beyond, just not accept that result? Is there a possibility of civil unrest in the form of demonstrations or God forbid, terrorism, from those who feel cheated? Would the SNP even consider voiding the whole thing and trying again later if it's just split down the middle? 51/49 could just be a disaster in waiting.
If it's going to be yes, then it has got to be in everyones interest to be a strong win, 10% + would probably be an emphatic enough margin. I know the probability is for a big no vote, but things can change fast. Personally I have no opinion except that it is for the Scots to decide, it's their choice, not mine. I'm sure an independent Scotland will be just as good friends(???) to the English as they are now. They will still support any other team playing England at football, and blame Thatcher for all their woes, but everything will turn out fine as long as the outcome is decisive.
Would the more volatile unionists a la Rangers fans and beyond, just not accept that result? Is there a possibility of civil unrest in the form of demonstrations or God forbid, terrorism, from those who feel cheated?
Yes, Lord Randolph Churchill ""Ulster will fight, and Ulster will be right", and all that.
Would the more volatile unionists a la Rangers fans and beyond, just not accept that result? Is there a possibility of civil unrest in the form of demonstrations or God forbid, terrorism, from those who feel cheated?
Yes, Lord Randolph Churchill ""Ulster will fight, and Ulster will be right", and all that.
I'd be in favour of arming the rebels.
Only if we can spread the word that Alec Salmond and all the other evil separatists are spending a long vacation at Tim Yeos house. I'd offer weapons of mass destruction just to guarantee that by election happens.
Maybe I'm getting my trains of thought a bit mixed up here, but all roads lead to Yeo!
True story: my sister was watching the (rather splendid) Road to Referendum : 1945-1974 earlier tonight, and asked me "so did Scotland lose its independence in 1945?"
Which is why I suspect you regard it as "rather splendid"!
Carlotta : Not at all, I was horrified. My sister is intelligent and several years older than me, and I suspect that lack of knowledge of our own country's history is far from untypical.
Carlotta : Not at all, I was horrified. My sister is intelligent and several years older than me, and I suspect that lack of knowledge of our own country's history is far from untypical.
Or she was being ironic? Which ever, Education is a devolved matter....
@paulwaugh: On Westminster Hour, Janet Royall: "We are *not* going to cut pensions." Adds "I'm sure over coming days, Ed Balls will say" what's in cap.
Right PB'ers, where do we think Edward Snowden will be on 9/6/2014?
I'd price it up thus;
Hong Kong / China = 8/11 Mainland US = 2/1 Guantanamo / Other non-mainland US territory = 4/1 Iceland = 20/1 UK = 50/1 Dead = 9/1
Anyone else?
Living on UK benefits in a 5 bedroomed council house in Croydon with 46 Human rights lawyers (being funded at UK taxpayers expense), claiming the Americans will cut off his testicles if he is deported. Which is probably close to the truth.
Or possibly: Paying Tim Yeo 5 grand a pop, (paid out by the DHSS),to ask parliamentary questions on his behalf
Would the more volatile unionists a la Rangers fans and beyond, just not accept that result? Is there a possibility of civil unrest in the form of demonstrations or God forbid, terrorism, from those who feel cheated?
Yes, Lord Randolph Churchill ""Ulster will fight, and Ulster will be right", and all that.
I'd be in favour of arming the rebels.
You could try Partition. 'Cos that's worked so well for everyone involved.
You could try Partition. 'Cos that's worked so well for everyone involved.
Rather like in Ireland we should re-draw the border depending on the vote.
If the locals just north of the current border want to stay in the UK then the border should be adjusted to allow for that to happen, within reason. Similarly, we should consider giving some of the UKs grubby northern socialist strongholds to an independent Scotland where they'll feel right at home.
If Labour can become this much of a shambles over their tax/spend/welfare plans two years from an election, what the hell will happen during the campaign itself?
Neil, not quite that desperate yet that we need to turn to Crystal Swing. Maybe some Abba?
Despite the repeated Crystal Swing references I've not listened to them until tonight. I'm going through YouTube now. Different, I'll grant you :-) Yes fitalass, ABBA if given a choice.
Do Crystal Swing vids annoy JamesKelly or is it only cats? I've already been grassed up by Palmer for daring to respond to JK once tonight so I need guidance on boundaries here.
Rather like in Ireland we should re-draw the border depending on the vote.
The Irish border was never redrawn to reflect the views of those living on either side of it. The provisional border was eventually rubber-stamped because doing anything else proved more difficult.
If Labour can become this much of a shambles over their tax/spend/welfare plans two years from an election, what the hell will happen during the campaign itself?
If Labour can become this much of a shambles over their tax/spend/welfare plans two years from an election, what the hell will happen during the campaign itself?
Be interesting to see how much actual control either Ed Miliband or Ed Balls have over their Shadow Cabinet colleagues in various departments when the detailed policy announcements are made.
Crystal Swing are a longstanding pb institution. Some people think they are the worst band in history. I and one or two other committed fans wont hear a bad word said about them.
The Irish border was never redrawn to reflect the views of those living on either side of it. The provisional border was eventually rubber-stamped because doing anything else proved more difficult.
Thanks Neil, but I wasn't talking about the settlement itself (sorry for being unclear). I'm sure I've read about a subsequent re-drawing that was proposed between the two governments. Never enacted but would have passed much of the bandit country areas to the South.
I'll just try my Google-fu and try to jog my memory ... unless you can help?
EDIT: Aha, this was it: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2601577.stm
Yes, that's what happened from my memory. Basically the Government of Ireland Act allowed for a rough and ready partition (6 of 32 counties could opt out of Home Rule and then independence). The Treaty allowed for a proper Boundary Commission to reflect the views of populations along the boundary. What with the civil war and other issues this was delayed for some years. When it finally got going it was without Stormont support (fear of losing any territory) and became problematic for Dublin when it turned out they might lose bits of Donegal. Eventually they all agreed to drop it and keep the provisional, rough and ready border. For better or worse. Probably worse!
Crystal Swing are a longstanding pb institution. Some people think they are the worst band in history. I and one or two other committed fans wont hear a bad word said about them.
I think that I once was at the wedding from hell, with a Crystal Swing tribute band.
As rivals for worst band, we must consider John Otway. Unbelievably bad, yet sold enough to get on TOTP.
I've finally finished my project of putting all the local election results into a spreadsheet format so that the data can be easily copied for those who want to do aggregates for constituencies, council areas, etc. I've used highest/top vote in multi-member divisions/wards:
Crystal Swing are a longstanding pb institution. Some people think they are the worst band in history. I and one or two other committed fans wont hear a bad word said about them.
I think that I once was at the wedding from hell, with a Crystal Swing tribute band.
As rivals for worst band, we must consider John Otway. Unbelievably bad, yet sold enough to get on TOTP.
Comments
Talking of lost arguments, have you apologised to Lucinda Creighton yet, by the way?
He also made a point of opposing violence when democratic means became possible. The difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is not just one of perspective. A terrorist is one who resorts to violence despite normal political processes being possibe. A freedom fighter is one who cannot act via democratic or peaceful means such as strikes or protests. The other distinction must be about targetting.
Hence French Resistance are freedom fighters, IRA are terrorists, or at least were until they accepted the Good Friday agreement.
Mandela pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence, including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns which planted bombs in public places such as the Johannesburg railway station.
President P.W. Botha, on a number of occasions, offered Nelson Mandela freedom from prison, if he would only renounce terrorist violence. Mandela refused to do so.
Has Salmond apologised for his "automatic membership claims"?
As well as "not asking the EU" about membership it appears we can add "not asking the Treasury" about the sterling zone to the list:
THE Scottish Government has so far failed to contact the Treasury to discuss details of its plan for a currency union in the event of independence, it has emerged
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/no-treasury-talks-on-pound-by-snp.21143876
Much easier just to assert stuff eh?
But good to see London lending a hand to the Scottish Fashion Industry:
Guess where the Scottish Fashion Awards will be held this year? London
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/guess-where-the-scottish-fashion-awards-will-be-held-this-year-london.21292968
http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre_sprog/English/index.htm
and neither has got anything about it. Reading the item you forwarded, it sounds to me like the negotiating squabbles that we see regularly in Britain between governments and teachers' unions - the sabre-rattling doesn't usually lead to anything very definite. I'm suspicious of the 90% figure - it's the sort of stat that pressure groups produce and it usually turns out to be "of those who answered our survey asking for support" (in this case it seems to be based on doctors attending a meeting in one suburb of Copenhagen). But I don't know anything about it - it might be more serious than I think.
True story: my sister was watching the (rather splendid) Road to Referendum : 1945-1974 earlier tonight, and asked me "so did Scotland lose its independence in 1945?"
If the result is a very narrow no then it doesn't close the door for the SNP to try again in a few years time, but what if it's 51/49 yes? Sure yes means yes, but if that happens it's probable that large parts of the country have voted against. It's a one way ticket to independence with a lot of unhappy people who won't ever get another chance to change it. Would the more volatile unionists a la Rangers fans and beyond, just not accept that result? Is there a possibility of civil unrest in the form of demonstrations or God forbid, terrorism, from those who feel cheated? Would the SNP even consider voiding the whole thing and trying again later if it's just split down the middle? 51/49 could just be a disaster in waiting.
If it's going to be yes, then it has got to be in everyones interest to be a strong win, 10% + would probably be an emphatic enough margin. I know the probability is for a big no vote, but things can change fast. Personally I have no opinion except that it is for the Scots to decide, it's their choice, not mine. I'm sure an independent Scotland will be just as good friends(???) to the English as they are now. They will still support any other team playing England at football, and blame Thatcher for all their woes, but everything will turn out fine as long as the outcome is decisive.
I'd be in favour of arming the rebels.
Maybe I'm getting my trains of thought a bit mixed up here, but all roads lead to Yeo!
1). They don't do what is right cos they lose their ability to sponge off the hardworking taxpayer.
and
2). They are all a bunch of thieving crooked cnuts taking bungs, who should be special renditioned to Saudi Arabia to have limbs removed.
3). Yeo. (see 1+2).
I'd price it up thus;
Hong Kong / China = 8/11
Mainland US = 2/1
Guantanamo / Other non-mainland US territory = 4/1
Iceland = 20/1
UK = 50/1
Dead = 9/1
Anyone else?
If you replace Pimms with JD.
But I would never abuse a pb poll with a less than serious answer. The head says UKIP but the heart says not. I went with my heart
@paulwaugh: On Westminster Hour, Janet Royall: "We are *not* going to cut pensions." Adds "I'm sure over coming days, Ed Balls will say" what's in cap.
Or possibly: Paying Tim Yeo 5 grand a pop, (paid out by the DHSS),to ask parliamentary questions on his behalf
Partition wasnt ideal until you consider the alternative.
Though I'm sure it doesnt need to be said that Scotland 2014 is a very different proposition to Ireland 1920!
If the locals just north of the current border want to stay in the UK then the border should be adjusted to allow for that to happen, within reason. Similarly, we should consider giving some of the UKs grubby northern socialist strongholds to an independent Scotland where they'll feel right at home.
If Labour can become this much of a shambles over their tax/spend/welfare plans two years from an election, what the hell will happen during the campaign itself?
Do Crystal Swing vids annoy JamesKelly or is it only cats? I've already been grassed up by Palmer for daring to respond to JK once tonight so I need guidance on boundaries here.
Crystal Swing are a longstanding pb institution. Some people think they are the worst band in history. I and one or two other committed fans wont hear a bad word said about them.
I'll just try my Google-fu and try to jog my memory ... unless you can help?
EDIT: Aha, this was it:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2601577.stm
Yes, that's what happened from my memory. Basically the Government of Ireland Act allowed for a rough and ready partition (6 of 32 counties could opt out of Home Rule and then independence). The Treaty allowed for a proper Boundary Commission to reflect the views of populations along the boundary. What with the civil war and other issues this was delayed for some years. When it finally got going it was without Stormont support (fear of losing any territory) and became problematic for Dublin when it turned out they might lose bits of Donegal. Eventually they all agreed to drop it and keep the provisional, rough and ready border. For better or worse. Probably worse!
As rivals for worst band, we must consider John Otway. Unbelievably bad, yet sold enough to get on TOTP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkYOZyNocrw
Dear lord that's gruesome. If they had their mother playing the keyboard in the background they'd take the crown.
Overall results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dDFzVlVSWGtOaGlNQllBQjBmVzc0Mnc#gid=0
Bristol:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dDg0aFJBdFJ2OVdBTS1OUVZXaU4xMVE#gid=0
Buckinghamshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dDJsLTVSeEUwOVZ3TkJzeDlDSFlobUE#gid=0
Cambridgeshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dGR3MnV4ay1OSG5SemoxaVNab185SFE#gid=0
Cornwall:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dC02dFJobkdWY1E1VTBiaWFiN3EwOFE#gid=0
Cumbria:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dEEtMS1xOWltVDBHVGJ0RDVRT3pENkE#gid=0
Derbyshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dGxDVWFzUnk2c2JUZEZaMXZnRGx4NGc#gid=0
Devon:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dDlabzlHYWRQLUNFdlJrRTRuMGpmT1E#gid=0
Dorset:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dExxNjV4VHczRXlINTZBdl80NjlKcmc#gid=0
Durham:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dEpRWDJyV0NzMi0zcHV4cnFORHZwNkE#gid=0
East Sussex:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dDdrVS1yQV85SUVwRV9GNFAyOTk0anc#gid=0
Essex:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dDIySUJiWThFM3gxcWEyNll4Rkx0Mnc#gid=0
Gloucestershire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dGxDZjhmTEpGcTVUS2ktVG1JUmVlRFE#gid=0
Hampshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dEtSTDNlVzhGcWl3RF9iMUd3aGJmWnc#gid=0
Hertfordshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dGZxeW9BQ2dQSE9SS2diRlRsN1A0N2c#gid=0
Isle of Wight:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dFhCYWMxM2lNc3daSnZlU1liZFo0aXc#gid=0
Kent:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dEdfWWk3NnlpeHpmbHZxcVlnSzZwMlE#gid=0
Lancashire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dGFzVHZ3ZU0zNkF3MWN5cGZKVjlad1E#gid=0
Leicestershire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dHViT1lRU3puQW5rQVJrX1RRZHhoLVE#gid=0
Lincolnshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dHVhWDR5UnEwN05FWHFiR0hMQzhmX2c#gid=0
Norfolk:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dFpySDhGdGFDMjY5ZGZtcTdOSW16UWc#gid=0
North Yorkshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dExuWDRnN3JqT1BQUUxGNnV0Nm5VWkE#gid=0
Northamptonshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dFZXQnBLTWNaNUN6YlFzQWRfU25qSHc#gid=0
Northumberland:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dDk0QUtnUTNmRmtKUWJGM1dwTjMxRFE#gid=0
Nottinghamshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dGxoSGFQaWg1V2tyYklHcXFkTm9LTXc#gid=0
Oxfordshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dFlDLTJzRUE4LTRmb3A3NTloVW55Smc#gid=0
Shropshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dDVKampQMkFudENGeU9oNnBNZnF0Rnc#gid=0
Somerset:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dFNVZDV4bWQzWkJHUjAwNDE3Tm1SLWc#gid=0
Staffordshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dHhKUk9GU1d5R3pIUzdHZ09ZNzAtLUE#gid=0
Suffolk:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dHk1d0dtdW4zcFlnSlJpcklOUmFrS3c#gid=0
Surrey:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dDFXbHNnZDBoSTJfWEZVYVRMOUJZeUE#gid=0
Warwickshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dHlMV3BUNy1uVV9hSUdMZlJPUW13cEE#gid=0
West Sussex:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dEdfZV9Vc2JyN1hwRm1tWXMwSEUtRGc#gid=0
Wiltshire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dC14dFZrLWlSN2JBR1d2clpLamlEOGc#gid=0
Worcestershire:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dFhxazVGMnpSNHk2VDRTNTFZb1lLWEE#gid=0
Anglesey:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dEhIamVuN3VKbGwxN1doUGlTdjlVR0E#gid=0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmVJTvL2dEM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se--DTfYh8k
Not when my sister was at school it wasn't. Or maybe the teaching of Scottish history under Mrs Thatcher was only atrocious in an "ironic" way?