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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » All current surveys with CON leads are from pollsters whic

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited February 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » All current surveys with CON leads are from pollsters which’ve been tested in a GE unlike all but one of those with LAB leads

Make of this what you will and it might just be a huge coincidence but there appears to be a split between the pollsters that have been tested in a general election and those that haven’t.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,040
    and he snipes the first!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,040
    ICM = the original gold standard
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Bugger - screwed again
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,040
    Tim_B said:

    Bugger - screwed again

    you have much to learn, padawan! ;)
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Hodges just come in contact with reality and had his leftie comfort zone shaken to the core

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11434695/Over-a-quarter-of-British-Muslims-have-sympathy-for-the-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.-That-is-far-too-many.html
    Two weeks ago I took part in a debate on free speech, hosted by the Islamic Education and Research Academy. It was a good discussion, well attended, with an almost exclusively Muslim audience. Near the end, one audience member began to defend the killing of apostates. I challenged him, as did the other non-Muslim panelists. None of the Muslim panelists challenged him. No members of the audience challenged him. Instead, when he’d finished defending the murder of apostates, a significant section of the audience applauded him.
  • Good work Mr Smithson. The two 7% Lab leads are online polls too.
  • From previous thread:

    Premier League (Phone)

    ICM
    Ashcroft
    Ipsos-MORI
    ComRes (Indy/Mail)


    Championship (Online)

    YG
    Populus
    TNS
    Opinium
    ComRes (Indy on Sunday)
    Survation


    I know thats controversial but 2015 demographics are unlike anything before. Don't trust online pollsters a jiffetyjotty & I'm also wobbling re phonesters cos of sampling problems.

    Past performance does not equal future results. I'll repost 3 key questions which I think will determine which pollster does best in 2015

    1) How well will past vote recall work this time when the political climate is so volatile? It will have been a 5 year parliament and voters will have had Euro and local elections + Holyrood and Welsh Assembly outside England. It doesn't matter if people get these elections muddled up if they always voted the same way. When people have voted for multiple parties this could be an issue
    2) How well will turnout filters work? UKIP and the SNP have had some success in energising previous non-voters but how many of them will actually turnout to vote?
    3) What impact will individual registration have? Some people may tell the pollsters they intend to vote and then turn up at the ballot box to find they can't
    Without going into specifics, one pollster told me "we're all nervous about this one". Given size and complexity of the flows between parties (and the issues you guys mentioned), there's an unprecedented amount of ways they could cock this up...
    With you Numbercruncher. GarethoftheVale also put something interesting.

    Unless the firms come into line someones going to get fingers burnt this time. The demographics in 2015 are so different. Onliners are almost all politically aware & older non-workers non-swing voters. Phones? I mean who uses a landline these days? And mobiles make geo-local sampling nigh imposs.

    Next throw into the pond fact that no-one's talking about the election. Except here and Westminster.

    Unsure what to make of it right now & urge some betting caution until the waters clear maybe post Easter.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Which wise PB sage has said: "No long-term future for BBC licence fee," many times in the past, I wonder? Who defended the claim from a load of mindless sqwarking BBC fans who could not see past the ends of their noses?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-31623659

    Ahem.

    I doubt the compulsory levy idea will be very popular amongst the public. Neither will moving to a subscriptions service with the need for everyone to get new set top boxes - only a few years after we all went digital. Besides, removing free-to-air would make the BBC like all the other competing services and drive an HGV-sized hole through their finances.

    So we're faced with either a massively unpopular compulsory levy or something that will cost the public a fortune and will remove the BBC's USP.

    The BBC as we know it is dying. It will live on in some reduced form, but the Auntie we knew and loved is in its dotage.

    Which is sad, as I like the BBC and don't mind paying the licence fee.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Good thread, Mike. This type of analysis goes some way to removing the fog of Yougov.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,629

    Which wise PB sage has said: "No long-term future for BBC licence fee," many times in the past, I wonder? Who defended the claim from a load of mindless sqwarking BBC fans who could not see past the ends of their noses?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-31623659

    Ahem.

    I doubt the compulsory levy idea will be very popular amongst the public. Neither will moving to a subscriptions service with the need for everyone to get new set top boxes - only a few years after we all went digital. Besides, removing free-to-air would make the BBC like all the other competing services and drive an HGV-sized hole through their finances.

    So we're faced with either a massively unpopular compulsory levy or something that will cost the public a fortune and will remove the BBC's USP.

    The BBC as we know it is dying. It will live on in some reduced form, but the Auntie we knew and loved is in its dotage.

    Which is sad, as I like the BBC and don't mind paying the licence fee.

    £5/month levy, plus a few adverts? I think they'd get an 80% take up rate.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    rcs1000 said:

    Which wise PB sage has said: "No long-term future for BBC licence fee," many times in the past, I wonder? Who defended the claim from a load of mindless sqwarking BBC fans who could not see past the ends of their noses?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-31623659

    Ahem.

    I doubt the compulsory levy idea will be very popular amongst the public. Neither will moving to a subscriptions service with the need for everyone to get new set top boxes - only a few years after we all went digital. Besides, removing free-to-air would make the BBC like all the other competing services and drive an HGV-sized hole through their finances.

    So we're faced with either a massively unpopular compulsory levy or something that will cost the public a fortune and will remove the BBC's USP.

    The BBC as we know it is dying. It will live on in some reduced form, but the Auntie we knew and loved is in its dotage.

    Which is sad, as I like the BBC and don't mind paying the licence fee.

    £5/month levy, plus a few adverts? I think they'd get an 80% take up rate.
    Possibly, although the competing services are awfully good. And you still have the need for the customer to buy a new set-top box decoder, which would act as a drag.

    Besides, one of the things being proposed is that it would be a compulsory household levy, which would mean that the 20% who did not want it are screwed.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    First ....

    (Among PB TOTY recipients)
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    rcs1000 said:

    Which wise PB sage has said: "No long-term future for BBC licence fee," many times in the past, I wonder? Who defended the claim from a load of mindless sqwarking BBC fans who could not see past the ends of their noses?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-31623659

    Ahem.

    I doubt the compulsory levy idea will be very popular amongst the public. Neither will moving to a subscriptions service with the need for everyone to get new set top boxes - only a few years after we all went digital. Besides, removing free-to-air would make the BBC like all the other competing services and drive an HGV-sized hole through their finances.

    So we're faced with either a massively unpopular compulsory levy or something that will cost the public a fortune and will remove the BBC's USP.

    The BBC as we know it is dying. It will live on in some reduced form, but the Auntie we knew and loved is in its dotage.

    Which is sad, as I like the BBC and don't mind paying the licence fee.

    £5/month levy, plus a few adverts? I think they'd get an 80% take up rate.
    I think they want a compulsory levy - one might almost call it a BBC Tax. I really do not think the BBC get it. The internet is killing it off in its current form - and good riddance too.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited February 2015

    rcs1000 said:

    Which wise PB sage has said: "No long-term future for BBC licence fee," many times in the past, I wonder? Who defended the claim from a load of mindless sqwarking BBC fans who could not see past the ends of their noses?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-31623659

    Ahem.

    I doubt the compulsory levy idea will be very popular amongst the public. Neither will moving to a subscriptions service with the need for everyone to get new set top boxes - only a few years after we all went digital. Besides, removing free-to-air would make the BBC like all the other competing services and drive an HGV-sized hole through their finances.

    So we're faced with either a massively unpopular compulsory levy or something that will cost the public a fortune and will remove the BBC's USP.

    The BBC as we know it is dying. It will live on in some reduced form, but the Auntie we knew and loved is in its dotage.

    Which is sad, as I like the BBC and don't mind paying the licence fee.

    £5/month levy, plus a few adverts? I think they'd get an 80% take up rate.
    Besides, one of the things being proposed is that it would be a compulsory household levy, which would mean that the 20% who did not want it are screwed.
    Morning all.

    The HoCs Culture, Media and Sport Committee concluded that the best alternative to the licence fee would be a compulsory broadcasting levy paid by all households, regardless of whether they watch TV, or how they watch.

    Strikes me as a very odd proposal - If TV ownership is excluded from the equation for paying what is now the TV tax, what you are left with is BBC taxation in perpetuity. - f'k that for a game of soldiers.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Does re-watching box sets of Sherlock count? If not it must be more than a year since I watched something on the BBC main channels. Watch their news channel occasionally and even less frequently Parliament.

    I would miss their radio. But locking people up for not paying the licence fee is an abomination and has to stop.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @felix

    'I think they want a compulsory levy - one might almost call it a BBC Tax. I really do not think the BBC get it. The internet is killing it off in its current form - and good riddance too.'

    What is so special about the BBC that it doesn't have to compete & has to be funded by a tax?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    Straw clutching turned into an art form.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471



    Morning all.

    The HoCs Culture, Media and Sport Committee concluded that the best alternative to the licence fee would be a compulsory broadcasting levy paid by all households, regardless of whether they watch TV, or how they watch.

    Strikes me as a very odd proposal - If TV ownership is excluded from the equation for paying the TV tax, what you are left with is BBC taxation in perpetuity. - f'k that for a game of soldiers.

    Yep.

    Having said that, they have it in Germany, at a rate of around 18 euros per month (more expensive than the BBC's licence fee), but the German fee funds two organisations.

    And there's the nub. *If* it was to happen, then other services should be able to apply for a slice as long as they fulfil certain 'public' criteria. But the BBC would have to do that as well.

    As it is, it would be an utterly anti-competitive in a rapidly fragmenting market (both in terms of content and delivery), It'd be madness, and a massive political hot potato.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    On topic is this not a bit of a fluke? Some of those in the blue corner were in the red corner not so long ago and visa versa. I still put most weight on ICM but they have had some pretty uncomfortable results for the blues not that long ago.

    This election is very difficult to call. My expectation is that at some point the pollsters will huddle together for warmth and protection from the big bad electorate to avoid looking particularly stupid. No one will want to look particularly stupid. Its bad for business.

    Whether they will huddle in the right place is of course anyone's guess but it will probably have some effect on the result.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Roger said:

    Straw clutching turned into an art form.

    "Straw clutching" the art of gaining large sums of money whilst a Member of Parliament
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025



    Morning all.

    The HoCs Culture, Media and Sport Committee concluded that the best alternative to the licence fee would be a compulsory broadcasting levy paid by all households, regardless of whether they watch TV, or how they watch.

    Strikes me as a very odd proposal - If TV ownership is excluded from the equation for paying the TV tax, what you are left with is BBC taxation in perpetuity. - f'k that for a game of soldiers.

    Yep.

    Having said that, they have it in Germany, at a rate of around 18 euros per month (more expensive than the BBC's licence fee), but the German fee funds two organisations.

    And there's the nub. *If* it was to happen, then other services should be able to apply for a slice as long as they fulfil certain 'public' criteria. But the BBC would have to do that as well.

    As it is, it would be an utterly anti-competitive in a rapidly fragmenting market (both in terms of content and delivery), It'd be madness, and a massive political hot potato.
    Sounds horribly like the poll tax to me. That went well.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015
    john_zims said:

    @felix


    What is so special about the BBC that it doesn't have to compete & has to be funded by a tax?

    Remarkably little. It's mainly churning out poor quality commercial junk, using public funding. Even the radio networks have succumbed, Radio 4 being particularly bad at the moment. Too many repeats, and even stalwarts such as The Archers have been turned into an audio version of Eastenders.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    Alanbrooke

    "Straw clutching" the art of gaining large sums of money whilst a Member of Parliament"

    You should write Dan Hodges gags for for him.




  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    edited February 2015
    It difficult to see this election as anything other than England v Germany. England play them off the park and the Germans win on penalties.

    I've reconciled myself to five more years but this time without Lib Dem involvement. There's never been a better time to be rich or a newspaper proprietor or a tax avoider. Dig in folks!
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015
    Roger said:

    It difficult to see this election as anything other than England v Germany. England play them off the park and the Germans win on penalties.

    I've reconciled myself to five more years but this time without Lib Dem involvement. There's never been a better time to be rich or a newspaper proprietor or a tax avoider. Dig in folks!

    Which newspaper title are you buying to complete the trio?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    edited February 2015
    DavidL said:

    On topic is this not a bit of a fluke? Some of those in the blue corner were in the red corner not so long ago and visa versa. I still put most weight on ICM but they have had some pretty uncomfortable results for the blues not that long ago.

    And it is that trend that is most interesting.

    I do find it bizarre that polls are judged on anything other than a trend over time. The problem with whatever methodology His Lordship is using is that trends are much more difficult to ascertain. This may be down to changes in who is doing his polling for him. I think all we can say for now is that it appears to fully use all the bandwidth of margin and error - and some.

    I also wonder to what extent polls are tweaked to provide an answer nearer that it perceives its client wants to get. So for example, do they worry a leftish paper might not continue employing a firm that comes up with polling good for Conservatives/UKIP? You would hope note, but it is a doubt that never quite goes away.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Which wise PB sage has said: "No long-term future for BBC licence fee," many times in the past, I wonder? Who defended the claim from a load of mindless sqwarking BBC fans who could not see past the ends of their noses?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-31623659

    Ahem.

    I doubt the compulsory levy idea will be very popular amongst the public. Neither will moving to a subscriptions service with the need for everyone to get new set top boxes - only a few years after we all went digital. Besides, removing free-to-air would make the BBC like all the other competing services and drive an HGV-sized hole through their finances.

    So we're faced with either a massively unpopular compulsory levy or something that will cost the public a fortune and will remove the BBC's USP.

    The BBC as we know it is dying. It will live on in some reduced form, but the Auntie we knew and loved is in its dotage.

    Which is sad, as I like the BBC and don't mind paying the licence fee.

    Nah, there will still be a BBC. The brand is worth too much for the government not to want to flog it ;)

    What will happen is:

    - funding from central government to a Public Broadcasting Trust

    - PBT funds (a) public service broadcasting - the stuff I suspect you like about the BBC; and (b) for a transition period - say 3 years - gives the BBC a declining income stream

    - BBC then spins off into a commercial organisation. I mean, why are we being forced to pay for a lot of the rubbish on BBC1. I don't remember the last time I watched it personally & if they want to compete with ITV then they should be funded like ITV (or Sky)

    - public service broadcasting pot is available for anyone to pitch for (and may be they have their own PBS channel) to fund interesting programmes that fall within the remit
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roger said:

    It difficult to see this election as anything other than England v Germany. England play them off the park and the Germans win on penalties.

    I've reconciled myself to five more years but this time without Lib Dem involvement. There's never been a better time to be rich or a newspaper proprietor or a tax avoider. Dig in folks!

    Germany plays the ball, not the man, so your analogy falls at the first hurdle
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Another day, another just under 5% for SNP crosstab.

    Tic toc.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Morning all and an excellent thread header because it reminds us who have a track record and who don't have. What would be useful would be a repeat of the "accuracy" chart showing how accurate a prediction the pollsters were 2 months before GE 2010 compared to the actual result, especially in party shares. For those not around in 2010, a thread on their accuracy when by-elections were announced compared to the actual result would also be useful.

    I seem to recall that for some by-elections this parliament, some pollsters issued initial polls which were wildly inaccurate but their subsequent polls just before the by-election were much closer to the result.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    £50 billion of losses by RBS in 7 years is a truly horrifying statistic.
  • The licence fee stays for another ten years apparently. That should surely give everyone enough time to work out a way of ensuring that anyone who does not want to pay the licence fee (or a subscription) can opt out from doing so. It is ridiculous that people who do not want to receive the BBC's services are made to pay for them anyway.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    Alanbrooke

    "once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.
    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.
    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008."

    Don't be so parsimonious. We're all Tories now
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    That's absolutely not true. I've not said that at all.

    But the share price is back above 400p which suggests progress is being made
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    I cannot fathom out how YouGov does its weightings. Last night we had a 33-33 draw yet in London it was 29-35 and South of England it was 45-21. Given that the overwhelming majority of the population lives in those 2 regions, how do we get 33-33. Even the North of England which is much smaller though more heavily Labour has improved to 28-47.
  • Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Thankfully, the poor and downtrodden are being looked after OK:

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/feb/27/rbs-bonuses-loss-pay-market-rate

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411

    I cannot fathom out how YouGov does its weightings. Last night we had a 33-33 draw yet in London it was 29-35 and South of England it was 45-21. Given that the overwhelming majority of the population lives in those 2 regions, how do we get 33-33. Even the North of England which is much smaller though more heavily Labour has improved to 28-47.

    Just natural subsample variation.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Why haven't any of the big banks been broken up yet?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2015
    Oh dear... no ifs, no buts.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11435529/Britains-brightest-leaving-in-brain-drain-and-replaced-with-low-skilled-migrants.html
    One in ten of Britain’s best workers have been lured from the UK in a brain drain and been replaced by low skilled migrants, research has found.

    The country’s most highly skilled workers are emigrating because they can earn more money and enjoy better standards of living overseas, according to University College London.

    Dr John Jerrim, of the UCL Institute of Education, said: “Immigrants account for one in four of the 9.6 million working age adults living in the United Kingdom with low level numeracy skills.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Alonso's sitting this test out, and has been replaced (for the test) by Kevin Magnussen.

    On-topic: the 7 point Labour leads look a bit silly. It does seem more or less level-pegging overall.
  • Indigo said:

    Oh dear

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11435529/Britains-brightest-leaving-in-brain-drain-and-replaced-with-low-skilled-migrants.html

    One in ten of Britain’s best workers have been lured from the UK in a brain drain and been replaced by low skilled migrants, research has found.

    The country’s most highly skilled workers are emigrating because they can earn more money and enjoy better standards of living overseas, according to University College London.

    Dr John Jerrim, of the UCL Institute of Education, said: “Immigrants account for one in four of the 9.6 million working age adults living in the United Kingdom with low level numeracy skills.


    Indeed. A shocking condemnation of British business culture.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    edited February 2015
    Easterross

    "What would be useful would be a repeat of the "accuracy" chart showing how accurate a prediction the pollsters were 2 months before GE 2010 compared to the actual result,"

    A quick look at the chart for late Feb 2010 shows it to be TNS. So using that yardstick I'd say Labour with a majority that should see them through till about 2025.

    Don't choke on your porridge
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Charles said:



    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    That's absolutely not true. I've not said that at all.

    But the share price is back above 400p which suggests progress is being made

    " progress is being made"

    it's like a communique from Passchendale
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Why haven't any of the big banks been broken up yet?
    Osborne
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke

    "once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.
    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.
    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008."

    Don't be so parsimonious. We're all Tories now

    Leftie rewrite of history alert

    I just love the way the left blame the right when it all goes wrong. Despite the prawn cocktail circuits and the banks being the lefts best buddies for 13 years.
  • "All these Con lead polls from firms which have been tested in a GE"

    All easily allow Ed Miliband and the Rainbow Coalition to rule for five
    glorious years

    Cameron needs to have a coalition total above 50% to get into power
    unless he gets 40% on his own and since the coalition hasnt
    had that level since late 2010 then the fact still remains that bar
    a very good campaign for the Blues or a very bad campaign for
    the natural party of Government then Dave will be out in a couple
    of months

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The BBC has a major problem..Too many Producers who appear to produce absolutely nothing but spend years ruminating about it.The place could work just as well with half as many.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11435156/Why-are-so-many-men-attracted-to-Ukip.html


    “Women are just one of a number of groups that tend not to vote for Ukip. Others include young people, those with university degrees, and ethnic minorities, who tend not to be concerned over immigration and Europe.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Thankfully, the poor and downtrodden are being looked after OK:

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/feb/27/rbs-bonuses-loss-pay-market-rate

    somebody has to keep Swiss tax advisers busy
  • Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Why haven't any of the big banks been broken up yet?
    Morning all,

    Indeed, an excellent question. The state could have done it - as owners of Lloyds and RBS. I'm sure St Vince Cable would have been up for it. Perhaps it looked too complicated. Or perhaps the fiasco at Co-Op bank warned ministers off the idea of smaller banks with more community-minded aims.

    Personally, I have long been in favour of Will Hutton's idea of regional banks, along the lines of those in Germany (although some of them were also up to their necks in the US housing scam if I remember rightly).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    edited February 2015
    S. O

    "It is ridiculous that people who do not want to receive the BBC's services are made to pay for them anyway."

    Is it? We pay for art galleries that we don't visit. We pay for roads we don't drive down. We subsidize theatres that we never go near....the BBC is much more accessable and worthwhile than many things we pay for but don't use. If the BBC's output isn't to everyone's taste then do something about it (though the overwhelming evidence is that it is).
  • Mr. Flashman (deceased), it'd be interesting to see a gender breakdown for Green support.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Roger said:

    S. O

    "It is ridiculous that people who do not want to receive the BBC's services are made to pay for them anyway."

    Is it? We pay for art galleries that we don't visit. We pay for roads we don't drive down. We subsidize theatres that we never go near....the BBC is much more accessable and worthwhile than many things we pay for but don't use. If the BBC's output isn't to everyone's taste then do something about it (though the overwhelming evidence is that it is).

    if you choose not to visit Ludlow it's your loss Roger
  • Mr. Observer, just seen the licence fee story and must say I agree with you 100%.

    Imagine if everyone were forced, by law, to pay a levy for my books, regardless of whether they wanted to read them!

    Wait a minute...

    "The MPs suggested every household could pay a new compulsory levy instead."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-31623659

    That's unjustifiable.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited February 2015
    Indigo said:

    Hodges just come in contact with reality and had his leftie comfort zone shaken to the core

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11434695/Over-a-quarter-of-British-Muslims-have-sympathy-for-the-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.-That-is-far-too-many.html

    Two weeks ago I took part in a debate on free speech, hosted by the Islamic Education and Research Academy. It was a good discussion, well attended, with an almost exclusively Muslim audience. Near the end, one audience member began to defend the killing of apostates. I challenged him, as did the other non-Muslim panelists. None of the Muslim panelists challenged him. No members of the audience challenged him. Instead, when he’d finished defending the murder of apostates, a significant section of the audience applauded him.
    Unless you want to set up a centre to brainwash immigrants on arrival, this is an unavoidable consequence of mass immigration from non Christian countries

    Hodges might as well write an article complaining about cigarettes not doing enough in the war against lung cancer
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    In Italy I am told the license fee was about 130 Euro..not many paid it so it was halved to 60 and was deducted from all wages and benefit payments. Now everyone pays.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,348
    DavidL said:

    Does re-watching box sets of Sherlock count? If not it must be more than a year since I watched something on the BBC main channels. Watch their news channel occasionally and even less frequently Parliament.

    I would miss their radio. But locking people up for not paying the licence fee is an abomination and has to stop.

    If I recall rightly, not paying your licence fee is not a crime in Scotland, just a civil thing!

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Why haven't any of the big banks been broken up yet?
    Up to the shareholders innit ? Small banks were just as rooked as big banks in 2008.
  • F1: there's a question mark over Alonso's presence at the first race (Australia). Rather obviously, that would not help my long odds, tiny stake bet on him winning it.

    However, it may be worth checking the odds on him not to be classified, when the Betfair market gets going.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Why haven't any of the big banks been broken up yet?
    Up to the shareholders innit ? Small banks were just as rooked as big banks in 2008.
    No.

    It isn't.

    If the taxpayer via HMG is offering loans and guarantees ( currently we're on the hook for £1trn ) and is in effect their bank, then like any bank HMG can call in loans to protect its interest and force a restructuring. The shareholders just have to stand back and suck it up or come up with more money of their own.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    TGOHF said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11435156/Why-are-so-many-men-attracted-to-Ukip.html


    “Women are just one of a number of groups that tend not to vote for Ukip. Others include young people, those with university degrees, and ethnic minorities, who tend not to be concerned over immigration and Europe.

    Women aged over 60 remain very committed to the Conservatives, whereas far more men aged over 60 have switched to UKIP.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Why haven't any of the big banks been broken up yet?
    Osborne
    TSB
    Williams & Glyn

    Plus Shawbrook, Aldermore, Metro
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Why haven't any of the big banks been broken up yet?
    Up to the shareholders innit ? Small banks were just as rooked as big banks in 2008.
    No.

    It isn't.

    If the taxpayer via HMG is offering loans and guarantees ( currently we're on the hook for £1trn ) and is in effect their bank, then like any bank HMG can call in loans to protect its interest and force a restructuring. The shareholders just have to stand back and suck it up or come up with more money of their own.
    Difficult to divest RBS whilst it is still making a loss.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Not a problem for me but anyone who thinks audreyanne isn't still posting on here please don't drive or operate machinery
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Why haven't any of the big banks been broken up yet?
    Morning all,

    Indeed, an excellent question. The state could have done it - as owners of Lloyds and RBS. I'm sure St Vince Cable would have been up for it. Perhaps it looked too complicated. Or perhaps the fiasco at Co-Op bank warned ministers off the idea of smaller banks with more community-minded aims.

    Personally, I have long been in favour of Will Hutton's idea of regional banks, along the lines of those in Germany (although some of them were also up to their necks in the US housing scam if I remember rightly).
    Regional banks have a role. The issue with the Landesbanken in Germany was that they had historically lent at wafer-thin rates based on a sovereign guarantee. When that disappeared, their funding costs went up and they decided to chase yield rather than take the politically difficult decision to reprice their loan book.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    "All these Con lead polls from firms which have been tested in a GE"

    All easily allow Ed Miliband and the Rainbow Coalition to rule for five
    glorious years

    Cameron needs to have a coalition total above 50% to get into power
    unless he gets 40% on his own and since the coalition hasnt
    had that level since late 2010 then the fact still remains that bar
    a very good campaign for the Blues or a very bad campaign for
    the natural party of Government then Dave will be out in a couple
    of months

    Er, no.

    Cameron could get back into power on 35% of the vote.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    Indigo

    "Oh dear... no ifs, no buts.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11435529/Britains-brightest-leaving-in-brain-drain-and-replaced-with-low-skilled-migrants.html

    One in ten of Britain’s best workers have been lured from the UK in a brain drain and been replaced by low skilled migrants, research has found.

    The country’s most highly skilled workers are emigrating because they can earn more money and enjoy better standards of living overseas, according to University College London.

    Dr John Jerrim, of the UCL Institute of Education, said: “Immigrants account for one in four of the 9.6 million working age adults living in the United Kingdom with low level numeracy skills."


    We create a culture where everyone is for sale to the highest bidder which is apparently why we pay crap bankers a fortune and then we blame the country for not making them even more comfortable so they do us the honour of not emigrating. Wouldn't it be better to change the greedy Thatcherite culture? Go visit Cuba and see a country where surgeons are paid the same as road sweepers but stay because they like the country and like helping people.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn)
    26/02/2015 07:49
    Immigration now higher than when Coalition took power in 2010, figures expected to reveal today sunpl.us/60140QHI
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,897
    Easterross The South and the North and London cancel each other out, Scotland is now worse for both main parties, it is the Midlands where the election is won, if the figures are close there so will be the result
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Roger said:

    Indigo

    "Oh dear... no ifs, no buts.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11435529/Britains-brightest-leaving-in-brain-drain-and-replaced-with-low-skilled-migrants.html

    One in ten of Britain’s best workers have been lured from the UK in a brain drain and been replaced by low skilled migrants, research has found.

    The country’s most highly skilled workers are emigrating because they can earn more money and enjoy better standards of living overseas, according to University College London.

    Dr John Jerrim, of the UCL Institute of Education, said: “Immigrants account for one in four of the 9.6 million working age adults living in the United Kingdom with low level numeracy skills."


    We create a culture where everyone is for sale to the highest bidder which is apparently why we pay crap bankers a fortune and then we blame the country for not making them even more comfortable so they do us the honour of not emigrating. Wouldn't it be better to change the greedy Thatcherite culture? Go visit Cuba and see a country where surgeons are paid the same as road sweepers but stay because they like the country and like helping people.

    Who would want to live in Cuba (unless you currently lived in somewhere like Haiti?)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,897
    coolagorna No, If the Tories plus LDs are on 45% they can still form a coalition (even plus the DUP) if UKIP are also on 10% as that makes 55%, Milband plus the Greens and SNP and Plaid and Respect would likely be on 44% at best
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568

    I cannot fathom out how YouGov does its weightings. Last night we had a 33-33 draw yet in London it was 29-35 and South of England it was 45-21. Given that the overwhelming majority of the population lives in those 2 regions, how do we get 33-33. Even the North of England which is much smaller though more heavily Labour has improved to 28-47.

    Huge Labour lead in the Midlands. But I don't think it's anything but subsample fluctuation. The parties are more or less tied, and have been since October, with a fractional Labour lead. Everything else is just noise.
    isam said:

    Not a problem for me but anyone who thinks audreyanne isn't still posting on here please don't drive or operate machinery

    Well, if she is, I'd encourage her to confirm (by private email if she likes) that she will honour our bet! I shan't feel bound to it if she doesn't.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    HYUFD said:

    coolagorna No, If the Tories plus LDs are on 45% they can still form a coalition (even plus the DUP) if UKIP are also on 10% as that makes 55%, Milband plus the Greens and SNP and Plaid and Respect would likely be on 44% at best

    If the Conservatives win c. 300 seats, then it's practically impossible to form a government without them. They could win that many on 35%.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Charles said:


    Nah, there will still be a BBC. The brand is worth too much for the government not to want to flog it ;)

    What will happen is:

    - funding from central government to a Public Broadcasting Trust

    - PBT funds (a) public service broadcasting - the stuff I suspect you like about the BBC; and (b) for a transition period - say 3 years - gives the BBC a declining income stream

    - BBC then spins off into a commercial organisation. I mean, why are we being forced to pay for a lot of the rubbish on BBC1. I don't remember the last time I watched it personally & if they want to compete with ITV then they should be funded like ITV (or Sky)

    - public service broadcasting pot is available for anyone to pitch for (and may be they have their own PBS channel) to fund interesting programmes that fall within the remit

    That's pretty much my thinking of the way it'll go long-term.

    The question that needs answer is this: what is the purpose of the BBC? If it is to deliver high-quality programming then it generally works: I could complain about Eastenders and Strictly, but others love them and hate some of the things I like (e.g. BBC 4).

    When the BBC was set up, it was a sensible way of providing high-quality content, first on the radio, and then TV. But the world is different now, and ITV, Sky, Channel 4 and increasingly t'Internet are all capable of producing high-quality TV programs.

    And that's the problem: the BBC is not the only way of delivering high-quality content any more, and treating them as if they are is damaging to everyone.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited February 2015
    What were people saying yesterday about muslims not feeling they should live by british law?

    Mostly for not paying the licence fee or sticking to the speed limit I suppose... And of course factor in the Mets institutional racism

    "More than a quarter of London’s prison population are Muslims, prompting urgent calls for an inquiry into what is happening in the justice system.

    Official figures have revealed that record levels of Muslim people are serving jail sentences and that the numbers are still growing. Across England and Wales the proportion has risen from eight per cent a decade ago to 14 per cent now.

    In London, the figure is an “astonishing” 27 per cent, which is more than double the 12 per cent of the capital’s population who are Muslim. In two prisons, Feltham and Isis, a third of the inmates were Muslim."

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/calls-for-inquiry-as-figures-show-27-of-londons-prisoners-are-muslim-9221167.html
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471

    F1: there's a question mark over Alonso's presence at the first race (Australia). Rather obviously, that would not help my long odds, tiny stake bet on him winning it.

    However, it may be worth checking the odds on him not to be classified, when the Betfair market gets going.

    Mr Dancer, the whole Alonso thing seems weird, and it's clear we are not being told everything (perhaps understandably). A relatively low-speed impact, at an odd part of the circuit, leading to concussion that keeps him hospitalised for a few days, and might affect him a month or so later?

    That's odd given F1 car safety features. Some people are wondering if he got an electrical shock from the KERS system (perfectly possible), but again, the after-effects seem rather lingering to this non-expert.

    Putting my tinfoil-hat on: I really hope to God that this is not the case, but might it be similar to the Richard Burns situation?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    Alanbrooke

    "if you choose not to visit Ludlow it's your loss Roger"

    I know. They need an advertising campaign.....

    "You can see lots more on a Ludlow tour............"
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    No.

    It isn't.

    If the taxpayer via HMG is offering loans and guarantees ( currently we're on the hook for £1trn ) and is in effect their bank, then like any bank HMG can call in loans to protect its interest and force a restructuring. The shareholders just have to stand back and suck it up or come up with more money of their own.

    The issue was simply a macro one. At a time when the banking sector was at risk of seizing up and the core national priority was to try and get credit flowing again, the last thing that everyone needed was complex restructuring.

    There is a clear objective in place to separate risk-led banking from the utility banking and I think that is absolutely the right model to follow. There's also a case for some regional banks (although I'd rather than national banks with a hub in one or two regions - otherwise everyone is going to be chasing into London rather than focusing on their core). But these things take time.
  • HYUFD said:

    coolagorna No, If the Tories plus LDs are on 45% they can still form a coalition (even plus the DUP) if UKIP are also on 10% as that makes 55%, Milband plus the Greens and SNP and Plaid and Respect would likely be on 44% at best

    First of all UKIP and the Libs have both stated they wont work
    with each other so dont add them together

    Secondly the DUP have voted with Labour on most issues this
    parliament

    Thirdly then you are left with Cam on 35% down 2 Libs on about
    9 % down 13...with Alexander, Swinson and probably Clegg gone
    and you are going to sell that to the country as having been given
    another mandate to govern?

    Good luck with that!!

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,897
    Sean F Even the case on 290+, then a LD+DUP arrangement becomes possible
  • Mr. Jessop, Richard Burns?

    The line is that the very high winds screwed the aerodynamics, he hit the wall and got concussion.

    I do not believe McLaren would lie about this (reputational damage would be significant) but there might be aspects that have not yet been made public. I'm not sure about an electric shock being involved. They've used KERS and ERS for a few years now and I've never heard of such an incident (inside the cockpit).

    However, it does seem rather peculiar.
  • Charles said:


    Nah, there will still be a BBC. The brand is worth too much for the government not to want to flog it ;)

    What will happen is:

    - funding from central government to a Public Broadcasting Trust

    - PBT funds (a) public service broadcasting - the stuff I suspect you like about the BBC; and (b) for a transition period - say 3 years - gives the BBC a declining income stream

    - BBC then spins off into a commercial organisation. I mean, why are we being forced to pay for a lot of the rubbish on BBC1. I don't remember the last time I watched it personally & if they want to compete with ITV then they should be funded like ITV (or Sky)

    - public service broadcasting pot is available for anyone to pitch for (and may be they have their own PBS channel) to fund interesting programmes that fall within the remit

    That's pretty much my thinking of the way it'll go long-term.

    The question that needs answer is this: what is the purpose of the BBC? If it is to deliver high-quality programming then it generally works: I could complain about Eastenders and Strictly, but others love them and hate some of the things I like (e.g. BBC 4).

    When the BBC was set up, it was a sensible way of providing high-quality content, first on the radio, and then TV. But the world is different now, and ITV, Sky, Channel 4 and increasingly t'Internet are all capable of producing high-quality TV programs.

    And that's the problem: the BBC is not the only way of delivering high-quality content any more, and treating them as if they are is damaging to everyone.
    One of the staple answers used to be that the BBC delivered high quality programming without the adverts - but in an age of online streaming and DVD boxsets that's not unique either.

    I think the BBC is a national institution without which Britain would be a poorer place to live. You could draw similarities with institutions such as the National Trust and the RSPB. Neither of those are funded by a compulsory household levy, though.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    HYUFD said:

    coolagorna No, If the Tories plus LDs are on 45% they can still form a coalition (even plus the DUP) if UKIP are also on 10% as that makes 55%, Milband plus the Greens and SNP and Plaid and Respect would likely be on 44% at best

    First of all UKIP and the Libs have both stated they wont work
    with each other so dont add them together

    Secondly the DUP have voted with Labour on most issues this
    parliament

    Thirdly then you are left with Cam on 35% down 2 Libs on about
    9 % down 13...with Alexander, Swinson and probably Clegg gone
    and you are going to sell that to the country as having been given
    another mandate to govern?

    Good luck with that!!

    It's seats, not vote share, that will determine the make-up of the next government.

  • Yep and with
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    coolagorna No, If the Tories plus LDs are on 45% they can still form a coalition (even plus the DUP) if UKIP are also on 10% as that makes 55%, Milband plus the Greens and SNP and Plaid and Respect would likely be on 44% at best

    First of all UKIP and the Libs have both stated they wont work
    with each other so dont add them together

    Secondly the DUP have voted with Labour on most issues this
    parliament

    Thirdly then you are left with Cam on 35% down 2 Libs on about
    9 % down 13...with Alexander, Swinson and probably Clegg gone
    and you are going to sell that to the country as having been given
    another mandate to govern?

    Good luck with that!!

    It's seats, not vote share, that will determine the make-up of the next government.

    Yep and with Tories losing 40 or so seats to Labour and
    the Libs losing 30 plus seats to Lab/SNP whilst Labour only lose seats.to
    their Coalition partners then the shabby coalition of peoples
    votes who voted for opposite things seems certain to be
    replaced by a coalition of peoples votes who at least broadly
    agree on a left of centre approach to things

    But of course the campaign can still change things

    Events dear boy Events and all that jazz



  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,897
    edited February 2015
    coolagorna No, but a high UKIP vote also means lower Labour vote and LD vote as well as Tory. The DUP have said one of their key issues is an EU referendum which only the Tories will deliver, they will go with the largest party and if that is the Tories will give them confidence and supply. As Sean F states seats will determine the government and Tory 292 + LD 28 + DUP 8 = 328 and has more of a mandate than say a Labour, SNP, Plaid, Green, Respect LD arrangement which Labour would need if it came second on seats in a hung parliament
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Charles said:


    Nah, there will still be a BBC. The brand is worth too much for the government not to want to flog it ;)

    What will happen is:

    - funding from central government to a Public Broadcasting Trust

    - PBT funds (a) public service broadcasting - the stuff I suspect you like about the BBC; and (b) for a transition period - say 3 years - gives the BBC a declining income stream

    - BBC then spins off into a commercial organisation. I mean, why are we being forced to pay for a lot of the rubbish on BBC1. I don't remember the last time I watched it personally & if they want to compete with ITV then they should be funded like ITV (or Sky)

    - public service broadcasting pot is available for anyone to pitch for (and may be they have their own PBS channel) to fund interesting programmes that fall within the remit

    That's pretty much my thinking of the way it'll go long-term.

    The question that needs answer is this: what is the purpose of the BBC? If it is to deliver high-quality programming then it generally works: I could complain about Eastenders and Strictly, but others love them and hate some of the things I like (e.g. BBC 4).

    When the BBC was set up, it was a sensible way of providing high-quality content, first on the radio, and then TV. But the world is different now, and ITV, Sky, Channel 4 and increasingly t'Internet are all capable of producing high-quality TV programs.

    And that's the problem: the BBC is not the only way of delivering high-quality content any more, and treating them as if they are is damaging to everyone.
    One of the staple answers used to be that the BBC delivered high quality programming without the adverts - but in an age of online streaming and DVD boxsets that's not unique either.

    I think the BBC is a national institution without which Britain would be a poorer place to live. You could draw similarities with institutions such as the National Trust and the RSPB. Neither of those are funded by a compulsory household levy, though.
    BBC is a very good model for 1920 to 1980. It is a redundant model for 2010 onwards.

    There is an argument for a limited Free Service. News, Children, Current Affairs, some sport designated free to air and some other bits no doubt, including some regional programs.

    There is no logic in 4 TV stations, 1 is adequate, sell the rest.
    Keep 3 National Radio stations, sell the rest.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Enoch Powells biggest fan on this week with Portillo et al tonight

    Good QT panel as well, Shapps, Reeves, Munt, Reckless...
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2015

    replaced by a coalition of peoples votes who at least broadly agree on a left of centre approach to things

    You are having a giraffe. They completely disagree on the economy, the critical issue of the moment. What is the LAB policy on austerity ? How does that compare to the SNP and Green policy ? Never mind defense policy!

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    BBC think..I had a producer who had a go at me because I turned up on location in a four wheel drive. vehicle...Why didn't I use public transport as she did..which just happened to be a tax payer paid London cab... which she genuinely thought was public transport
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    Morning all :)

    I'm not sure where the truth lies from the various polls either. Possibly a tiny CON lead, possibly a small LAB lead - in the scheme of things it doesn't matter very much but I suppose it's a bit of a virility test for the partisans.

    As I've often said, ICM does throw out occasional outlier numbers so we'll see if it's CON +4 lead is maintained next month.

    All the seat permutation theories make huge assumptions as to what parties will do as distinct from what they say now. I can't speak for the SNP or DUP let alone UKIP but from an LD perspective I don't believe the Party will want to enter into any kind of formal Coalition or even S&C with either a minority LAB or CON Government. That doesn't mean they would actively vote to bring them down on a Confidence issue - the party would abstain and let others find the numbers.

    As for negotiation, I'd simply tell the Conservatives - "if you want your Euro Refrendum, you can have it but you have to introduce STV for all elections without a Referendum".

    I'd tell Labour "if you want your Mansion Tax, you can have it but you have to introduce STV for all elections without a Referendum."

    That would at least have the advantage of keeping the negotiations short and not keeping Nicola Sturgeon waiting.
  • isam said:

    Enoch Powells biggest fan on this week with Portillo et al tonight

    Good QT panel as well, Shapps, Reeves, Munt, Reckless...

    Good panel? Michael Green, Ms boring snoring and a Lib Dem
    nonentity as well as robot voiced alkie Reckless?

    Hardly Galloway v the Zionists or Brand v Farage is it?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Yep and with

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    coolagorna No, If the Tories plus LDs are on 45% they can still form a coalition (even plus the DUP) if UKIP are also on 10% as that makes 55%, Milband plus the Greens and SNP and Plaid and Respect would likely be on 44% at best

    First of all UKIP and the Libs have both stated they wont work
    with each other so dont add them together

    Secondly the DUP have voted with Labour on most issues this
    parliament

    Thirdly then you are left with Cam on 35% down 2 Libs on about
    9 % down 13...with Alexander, Swinson and probably Clegg gone
    and you are going to sell that to the country as having been given
    another mandate to govern?

    Good luck with that!!

    It's seats, not vote share, that will determine the make-up of the next government.

    Yep and with Tories losing 40 or so seats to Labour and
    the Libs losing 30 plus seats to Lab/SNP whilst Labour only lose seats.to
    their Coalition partners then the shabby coalition of peoples
    votes who voted for opposite things seems certain to be
    replaced by a coalition of peoples votes who at least broadly
    agree on a left of centre approach to things

    But of course the campaign can still change things

    Events dear boy Events and all that jazz



    The Lib Dems won't lose 30 + seats to Labour and SNP. If they lose 30 seats overall, then 10-15 losses would go to the Conservatives.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712

    HYUFD said:

    coolagorna No, If the Tories plus LDs are on 45% they can still form a coalition (even plus the DUP) if UKIP are also on 10% as that makes 55%, Milband plus the Greens and SNP and Plaid and Respect would likely be on 44% at best

    First of all UKIP and the Libs have both stated they wont work
    with each other so dont add them together

    Secondly the DUP have voted with Labour on most issues this
    parliament

    Thirdly then you are left with Cam on 35% down 2 Libs on about
    9 % down 13...with Alexander, Swinson and probably Clegg gone
    and you are going to sell that to the country as having been given
    another mandate to govern?

    Good luck with that!!

    Percentages of the vote don’t equate to Parliamentary seats.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I'm not sure where the truth lies from the various polls either. Possibly a tiny CON lead, possibly a small LAB lead - in the scheme of things it doesn't matter very much but I suppose it's a bit of a virility test for the partisans.

    As I've often said, ICM does throw out occasional outlier numbers so we'll see if it's CON +4 lead is maintained next month.

    All the seat permutation theories make huge assumptions as to what parties will do as distinct from what they say now. I can't speak for the SNP or DUP let alone UKIP but from an LD perspective I don't believe the Party will want to enter into any kind of formal Coalition or even S&C with either a minority LAB or CON Government. That doesn't mean they would actively vote to bring them down on a Confidence issue - the party would abstain and let others find the numbers.

    As for negotiation, I'd simply tell the Conservatives - "if you want your Euro Refrendum, you can have it but you have to introduce STV for all elections without a Referendum".

    I'd tell Labour "if you want your Mansion Tax, you can have it but you have to introduce STV for all elections without a Referendum."

    That would at least have the advantage of keeping the negotiations short and not keeping Nicola Sturgeon waiting.

    That's the key to the Euro referendum. Can the Conservatives bring themselves to offer PR in return?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Why haven't any of the big banks been broken up yet?
    Up to the shareholders innit ? Small banks were just as rooked as big banks in 2008.
    No.

    It isn't.

    If the taxpayer via HMG is offering loans and guarantees ( currently we're on the hook for £1trn ) and is in effect their bank, then like any bank HMG can call in loans to protect its interest and force a restructuring. The shareholders just have to stand back and suck it up or come up with more money of their own.
    Difficult to divest RBS whilst it is still making a loss.
    Absolutely, it's a basket case and which is why I have been saying consistently the taxpayer should cut his losses break the sod up in to something which puts real competition back in the market and politicians should quit trying to kid us we'll see our money back.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    edited February 2015
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Once again our brilliant financial sector shows why we need it so much.

    RBS posts 7th annual loss in a row with another £ 3.5bn down the Swannee.

    This was helped by £2.2bn of fines from "bankers' ethics" issues. So far the bank has lost £50bn since 2008.

    On the bright side the Chairman says the strategy is working ( WTF? ),

    Colombian drug cartels ask him what he's on as they can see a fantastic new product line for distribution.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11436222/RBS-posts-seventh-straight-annual-loss.html

    The strategy is working: they are gradually closing down or selling off the extraneous businesses to focus on the core mission of UK retail and corporate banking. If you look at the underlying profitability - excluding the sins of the past - it is performing ok. Not great, but ok, which given the turmoil it's been in is not a bad outcome.

    Still much still to do to clear up the mess left by the last management team.
    Let me put this in context for you. Red Robbo BL in 1974/5 made a loss of £123m roughly £1.25bn at today's prices.

    http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/archive/archive-british-leyland-turns-in-loss-of-more-than-123m-for-the-year/

    World War 2 only lasted 6 years

    Since 2008 we are now on management team 2, 3, 4 ? so which ones are the current bunch cleaning up after ?

    And more to the point are you forecasting a profit next year ?

    For 5 years you and I have been banging on about RBS with you telling me I don't understand banking and it will be all right this time next year. Well yet anotrher year has gone by and your record needle is still stuck.

    Break it up and move on, the taxpayer has been fleeced and will never get his money back.

    Why haven't any of the big banks been broken up yet?
    Osborne
    TSB
    Williams & Glyn

    Plus Shawbrook, Aldermore, Metro
    LOL

    we;ve thrown two deck chairs off the Titanic and expect it to refloat.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited February 2015
    This report into the future of the BBC basically has just kicked the issue of the licence fee into the very long grass. Another 11 years before any change.

    Now I am super critical of the BBC, but those that love it, the licence fee is already totally unenforceable. The world has changed, we don't all huddle around the big old moving picture box in the corner of the living room to choose from 3 channels.

    There are already a host of ways of watching the BBC and its output without the infamous detector van knowing you have done so, iPlayer is legal to watch on catchup without the licence (yes they talk about that in the report and I will come on to that), and it is only going to get worse and worse as mobile internet in a few years will many many times faster than even our current home broadband. Furthermore, Geo-location can also easily be defeated, so it is very easy for people to watch BBC output from abroad without ever having paid.

    Then what are they going to do about iPlayer, ask you to put in some licence code? Well that will cost to implement and enforce, and there are already plenty of places where you can access BBC programs within minutes of broadcast at a higher quality than iPlayer, and this will just get worse.

    This report is basically the head in the sand approach that the music and movie industry took for far too long (and the movie industry still does far too much of), before realising that they just couldn't enforce their old business models any longer and have / are adapting.

    It is now totally bizarre model that you have to pay a licence if you ever turn on a tv or radio, even if you are using the service you are paying for and there are 999 other channels on that device like this. As I said earlier we aren't talking about paying a fee to fund basically all the output from the single static media device.
This discussion has been closed.