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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LDs said to be “competitve” in Solihull – the Tories’ top y

SystemSystem Posts: 11,707
edited February 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LDs said to be “competitve” in Solihull – the Tories’ top yellow target

Survation private polling suggests the LDs "competitive" in Solihill CON target number 3
http://t.co/4JXAuHaYct pic.twitter.com/WOdNRrFFyc

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    My thoughts on this are here: http://ponyonthetories.blogspot.co.uk/
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    Doesn't it also suggest the following odds-against chances are "competitive"?

    Tories in Cheltenham @ 7/4
    Tories in Cheltenham @ 6/5
    LD in Cardiff Central @ 11/4
    Tories in Eastbourne @ 13/8
    Tories in Cheadle @ 6/5
    Labour in Bermondsey @ 7/4

    Assuming Leeds NE should be Leeds NW, you can get 13/5 on Labour there.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408
    It is very likely that the Lib Dem vote will be down over the whole country by round about 50%. This itself assumes a modest recovery from where they are now.

    There are only so many votes that don't matter that can be lost. Antifrank has done some excellent analysis against this. Once about a third of the country is down to almost zero the falls in the bastions begin.

    The Lib dem vote in Solihull will fall by several thousand. It is possible, I suppose, with UKIP etc that the Tory vote could fall by a few thousand as well but the overwhelming probability is that Burt is gone for a burton.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I'm reading that Greece is about to be booted out the euro, the markets don;t seem to give a t8ss.
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    Ah, Anthony Wells has helped here:

    The word “competitive is vague” – I’m told they meant it as within five points.

    [...]

    I understand Survation will be releasing some figures later on today, so we shall be able to see for ourselves…


    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9259
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    Isn't the term "Competitive" politicspeak meaning we've no chance whatsoever but we'll keep trying anyway.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited February 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    My thoughts on this are here: http://ponyonthetories.blogspot.co.uk/

    In Wells the Ashcroft poll had the LDs ahead on "all expressing voting intention" which I'd argue is the best measure in tight battlegrounds. In key marginals the party GOTV ops designed to get the most marginal voters out to vote.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    £16.67 Solihull @ 10-3 (Hedge against £100 @ 1-3 CON)
    £50 Mid Dorset & North Poole @ 4-11 CON
    £25 Somerton & Frome (Top up) @ 4-11 CON

    is how I've played all this.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Isn't the term "Competitive" politicspeak meaning we've no chance whatsoever but we'll keep trying anyway.

    No that is wishful thinking on your part .
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    Pulpstar said:

    My thoughts on this are here: http://ponyonthetories.blogspot.co.uk/

    In Wells the Ashcroft poll had the LDs ahead on "all expressing voting intention" which I'd argue is the best measure in tight battlegrounds. In key marginals the party GOTV ops designed to get the most marginal voters out to vote.

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Wells-Full-tables-Sept-14.pdf

    Where ?!
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    Don't BPC rules mean that the poll should be released now properly since part of its findings have been made public?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    Don't BPC rules mean that the poll should be released now properly since part of its findings have been made public?

    Yes.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408
    The Wiki page is somewhat confusing but as I understand it they are saying that in 2014 the local council had 29 tories, 10 greens, 8 Lib dems, 2 Labour and an independent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Borough_of_Solihull

    It perhaps raises an interesting question of who is going to come second.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    DavidL said:

    The Wiki page is somewhat confusing but as I understand it they are saying that in 2014 the local council had 29 tories, 10 greens, 8 Lib dems, 2 Labour and an independent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Borough_of_Solihull

    It perhaps raises an interesting question of who is going to come second.

    Lib Dems.
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    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    The Wiki page is somewhat confusing but as I understand it they are saying that in 2014 the local council had 29 tories, 10 greens, 8 Lib dems, 2 Labour and an independent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Borough_of_Solihull

    It perhaps raises an interesting question of who is going to come second.

    Lib Dems.
    Talking your book

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    I'm honestly trying to find a glimmer of hope for Munt in these tables :)

    Can anyon help me out ?
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    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited February 2015
    Stephen Fisher's latest GE Seats projection at 20/02/15:

    "We now have Labour as very narrow favourites to emerge as the largest party, with a 51% chance to the Tories’ 49%. But, just as every week since our new model launched in January, it’s basically 50-50.

    The chances of a Hung Parliament are up again, to 86%, as David Cameron’s chances of securing a majority are down to 8% and Ed Miliband’s stay on 5%

    It is very likely that Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP, the SDLP, Plaid Cymru and the Greens would have a majority of seats between them (our model gives an 82% chance of some combination of these having the required 323 seats). Whether Ed Miliband can convert that into a place in Number 10 remains to be seen, but our model suggests that’s more likely than David Cameron being able to remain.

    Our central forecast is for the Tories to win 33.7% of the vote and 281 seats, and Labour to win fewer votes (31.4%) but one more seat (282). That combined vote share – 65.1% – for the two parties would be their lowest since 1918."
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    The Wiki page is somewhat confusing but as I understand it they are saying that in 2014 the local council had 29 tories, 10 greens, 8 Lib dems, 2 Labour and an independent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Borough_of_Solihull

    It perhaps raises an interesting question of who is going to come second.

    Lib Dems.
    Talking your book

    Haven't you backed the Lib Dems at 6-4 here Mike :D ?
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Jim McGovern is my MP and he has operated on the assumption that he has a seat for life for far too long. I was distinctly underwhelmed with his doorstep performance during the referendum too. It probably would not make any difference to the final outcome (except in scale) but Labour made a mistake in allowing him to stand again.

    I have been saying on here that I was tempted to vote tactically for Labour if it would stop the SNP taking the seat but I will not do so if they have no chance whatsoever. At the moment they are not coming close to persuading me they have a chance.
    I don't understand how can you state all this, accept what a terrible atrocious waste of space Mcgovern is, presumably living in Dundee can see the changes brought about by the SNP control of the council and freely admit that they are doing the right thing tackling school rationalisation and yet you won't support the SNP in an election where Independence is not on the table.
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    So now a party's private poll is better than Lord Ashcroft's?

    Reminds me of a line in Neil Young's Ambulance Blues. "You're all just p****ng in the wind".

    FYI At the last GE, with the Lib Dems Cleggasm surge they managed to lose a net number of seats to the Conservatives.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,994
    there I was, refreshing the previous thread like an idiot.
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    I have been saying for a while I wouldn't be surprised if Ms Burt held on whilst more safe colleagues lost.
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    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.

    Watford, Montgomeryshire ?!
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    Pulpstar said:

    I'm honestly trying to find a glimmer of hope for Munt in these tables :)

    Can anyon help me out ?

    Fieldwork : 6th-17th August 2014 is the best I can suggest
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    DavidL said:

    The Wiki page is somewhat confusing but as I understand it they are saying that in 2014 the local council had 29 tories, 10 greens, 8 Lib dems, 2 Labour and an independent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Borough_of_Solihull

    It perhaps raises an interesting question of who is going to come second.

    Solihull council has 2 parliamentary constituencies Meriden and Solihull
  • Options
    My understanding is that the findings will be made public. One of the great things about the BPC is that commissioners of private polling can't go public with it without the data following.
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    Pulpstar said:

    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.

    Watford, Montgomeryshire ?!
    I got on the LDs in Watford at 11/2 because I saw what a difference having the 4 times elected mayor as the candidate could mean. Montgomeryshire was me trying to think of a header to write which would get Lembit in.
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    I expect the intervention of the Greens to kill off the faint hopes that Lorely Burt may have. They did not stand in this constituency last time, but given their relatively strong local council base, they will presumably expect to do better than average here. I would have thought that they would be aiming to save their deposit at least.

    The Survation poll is unlikely to have prompted for the Greens.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.

    Do you really think this will be any more than a simple statement from UKIP, Liberal and Green spokespeople at the end of each piece where the Labour and Conservative positions dominate?

    The Ofcom guidelines are clear. "Up to the same coverage as Labour and the Conservatives", not the same, up to. The broadcaster still has considerable leeway as to how they implement this.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    edited February 2015

    Pulpstar said:

    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.

    Watford, Montgomeryshire ?!
    I got on the LDs in Watford at 11/2 because I saw what a difference having the 4 times elected mayor as the candidate could mean. Montgomeryshire was me trying to think of a header to write which would get Lembit in.
    You're also on Labour in Camborne and Redruth at 8s :) ... & so am I - it's not my best bet.

    Watford was a superb punt at 11-2, hat tip for that one. But you HAVE bet on single seats ;)
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    I'm fairly agnostic on this but fwiw I did place a small bet on the LDs in St Ives earlier today, at even money.
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    I find the almost total absence of on the ground campaigning experience in fierce battles on this site quite amazing. Maybe three or 4 posters have actually done it. The rest are just talking theoreticals.
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    I'm fairly agnostic on this but fwiw I did place a small bet on the LDs in St Ives earlier today, at even money.

    Seems sensible given Anthony Wells' piece.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062
    Dair said:

    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.

    Do you really think this will be any more than a simple statement from UKIP, Liberal and Green spokespeople at the end of each piece where the Labour and Conservative positions dominate?

    The Ofcom guidelines are clear. "Up to the same coverage as Labour and the Conservatives", not the same, up to. The broadcaster still has considerable leeway as to how they implement this.
    That sounds bizarre. It suggests that all they aren't allowed to do is offer MORE coverage to other parties.
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    Hengists_GiftHengists_Gift Posts: 628
    edited February 2015
    FPT

    @Casino Royale

    Why would it damage the Tories? If they preannouce it, and it's publically popular, and then days later the Lib Dems and Labour vote it down then they'd be the ones risking damage. Particularly if Osborne manages the political presentation effectively - he can set an almighty trap.

    The key word here is 'shoehorn' and the expiry on 5th April of the existing IHT threshold level. The Lib Dems will want something they can campaign on too, so expect a trade on higher property taxes for the living with cuts for the deceased


    Have you forgotten the omnishambles budget already?

    The keyword here is 'class'. If Labour can ensure that the Tories get virtually no C2, DE voters then you can forget a majority and probably kiss goodbye to largest party. Handing them the chance to bang on about the Tories and their 'millionaire's tax avoidance measures' is handing it to them on a plate.

    The Libdems are using it as an example of how the Tories are unfair on tax on their website. If they want any credibility at all at this election they are not going to back down on it. If they did it would indicate they had learned nothing from the Tuition fees debacle.

    Look I want to see IHT scrapped altogether but frankly if Tories want to invite a whole world of pain by trying to do something that has massive predictable class overtones to it before the election by all means go ahead. It will be reminiscent of the omnishambles budget furore all over again.

    At this stage when all the economic markers seem to be going the Tories way I'd leave it alone. Put it back in the manifesto and leave it for next time. But hey knowing Tory strategic thinking it will likely be the first thing Osborne announces when he stands up.

    PS And I don't think the 'Pay more now so you have less not to be taxed when your dead' idea (higher property taxes) will impress anyone who its intended to impress. Frankly it sounds as misguided as Brown abolishing the 10p Tax rate.
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    Dair said:

    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.

    Do you really think this will be any more than a simple statement from UKIP, Liberal and Green spokespeople at the end of each piece where the Labour and Conservative positions dominate?

    The Ofcom guidelines are clear. "Up to the same coverage as Labour and the Conservatives", not the same, up to. The broadcaster still has considerable leeway as to how they implement this.
    No. I've worked and operated the broadcasting rules during my time at the BBC. UKIP & the LDs will get 0.8 of the time of LAB & CON. The rest will be afterthoughts.

    In Scotland and Wales SNP and PC have that status.


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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,467
    edited February 2015
    FPT
    So far this week (inc. today's Sun YG and Populus) - LibDems on an ELBOW score of 8.3%, which, if sustained till Sunday, would be their highest weekly score since 24th August
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    DavidL said:

    The Wiki page is somewhat confusing but as I understand it they are saying that in 2014 the local council had 29 tories, 10 greens, 8 Lib dems, 2 Labour and an independent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Borough_of_Solihull

    It perhaps raises an interesting question of who is going to come second.

    Solihull council has 2 parliamentary constituencies Meriden and Solihull
    So all the green councillors are in Meriden.... Is the green candidate for Solihull expected to take nothing from the LDs?
  • Options

    I find the almost total absence of on the ground campaigning experience in fierce battles on this site quite amazing. Maybe three or 4 posters have actually done it. The rest are just talking theoreticals.

    Hey, I've done it.

    And I can confirm that in Broxtowe five years ago Gordon Brown wasn't very well liked but Nick P was. It showed in the result. Will probably again.
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    My understanding is that the findings will be made public. One of the great things about the BPC is that commissioners of private polling can't go public with it without the data following.

    But will they have to release all the polling (said to be 100 seats)? Or can they cherry-pick the ones specifically mentioned to journalists?
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    FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Isn't the term "Competitive" politicspeak meaning we've no chance whatsoever but we'll keep trying anyway.

    No that is wishful thinking on your part .
    Its a 'no' on your part. 'Competitive' means losing gallantly. The 300 Spartans were competitive.
  • Options

    My understanding is that the findings will be made public. One of the great things about the BPC is that commissioners of private polling can't go public with it without the data following.

    But will they have to release all the polling (said to be 100 seats)? Or can they cherry-pick the ones specifically mentioned to journalists?
    Good question. I expect we shall see some arguments about that.
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited February 2015

    Dair said:

    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.

    Do you really think this will be any more than a simple statement from UKIP, Liberal and Green spokespeople at the end of each piece where the Labour and Conservative positions dominate?

    The Ofcom guidelines are clear. "Up to the same coverage as Labour and the Conservatives", not the same, up to. The broadcaster still has considerable leeway as to how they implement this.
    No. I've worked and operated the broadcasting rules during my time at the BBC. UKIP & the LDs will get 0.8 of the time of LAB & CON. The rest will be afterthoughts.

    In Scotland and Wales SNP and PC have that status.
    That's not how Ofcom set out their guidelines, they do not state an 80% rule. This is a different situation to anything previously where there were three parties and three parties only. There is no breach in the guidelines in limiting the Liberals and UKIP to far less than a 0.8 ratio and we're still waiting for confirmation on whether the Greens will also be entitled to the same status.

    It is much harder for the broadcaster to give the same ratio to two or three parties as it does to one party. The reality will be plain once the offical period begins. I suspect you will be quite upset at the outcome.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Looks like I'm a "pbtory" on this thread :)
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    DavidL said:

    The Wiki page is somewhat confusing but as I understand it they are saying that in 2014 the local council had 29 tories, 10 greens, 8 Lib dems, 2 Labour and an independent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Borough_of_Solihull

    It perhaps raises an interesting question of who is going to come second.

    Solihull council has 2 parliamentary constituencies Meriden and Solihull
    So all the green councillors are in Meriden.... Is the green candidate for Solihull expected to take nothing from the LDs?
    7 in Meriden , 3 in Solihull IIRC . No why should not the Green candidate take some votes from the LDs , the question is more whether that number is larger than UKIP take from the Conservatives .
    Remember , I did forecast that the Conservatives would gain this seat back in 2010 , I admit my error .
  • Options

    I find the almost total absence of on the ground campaigning experience in fierce battles on this site quite amazing. Maybe three or 4 posters have actually done it. The rest are just talking theoreticals.

    Mike, I have in winning a marginal at the last GE. Recruiting large teams of volunteers is the trick 2 to 3 years beforehand. I managed to recruit almost 100 personally. The opponents and senior supporters watched in amazement as some key ballot boxes were opened with the first Conservative majorities in the opponents cllr areas in 20 years.
    And that is all I am admitting to. Oh and the swing was several % better than the national one.
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    The Wiki page is somewhat confusing but as I understand it they are saying that in 2014 the local council had 29 tories, 10 greens, 8 Lib dems, 2 Labour and an independent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Borough_of_Solihull

    It perhaps raises an interesting question of who is going to come second.

    Solihull council has 2 parliamentary constituencies Meriden and Solihull
    So all the green councillors are in Meriden.... Is the green candidate for Solihull expected to take nothing from the LDs?
    7 in Meriden , 3 in Solihull IIRC . No why should not the Green candidate take some votes from the LDs , the question is more whether that number is larger than UKIP take from the Conservatives .
    Remember , I did forecast that the Conservatives would gain this seat back in 2010 , I admit my error .
    It was one of the most surprising results of the nite, I recall.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2015
    antifrank said:

    My understanding is that the findings will be made public. One of the great things about the BPC is that commissioners of private polling can't go public with it without the data following.

    But will they have to release all the polling (said to be 100 seats)? Or can they cherry-pick the ones specifically mentioned to journalists?
    Good question. I expect we shall see some arguments about that.
    Looking at Anthony's article again, it's 100 polls, not 100 constituencies. I can't imagine that they would have spent money polling outside LibDem-held seats, apart from a couple such as Watford, but they may well have done multiple polls in a given constituency.
  • Options

    Isn't the term "Competitive" politicspeak meaning we've no chance whatsoever but we'll keep trying anyway.

    No that is wishful thinking on your part .
    Its a 'no' on your part. 'Competitive' means losing gallantly. The 300 Spartans were competitive.
    Madness? This is PB.com!
  • Options
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.

    Do you really think this will be any more than a simple statement from UKIP, Liberal and Green spokespeople at the end of each piece where the Labour and Conservative positions dominate?

    The Ofcom guidelines are clear. "Up to the same coverage as Labour and the Conservatives", not the same, up to. The broadcaster still has considerable leeway as to how they implement this.
    No. I've worked and operated the broadcasting rules during my time at the BBC. UKIP & the LDs will get 0.8 of the time of LAB & CON. The rest will be afterthoughts.

    In Scotland and Wales SNP and PC have that status.
    That's not how Ofcom set out their guidelines, they do not state an 80% rule. This is a different situation to anything previously where there were three parties and three parties only. There is no breach in the guidelines in limiting the Liberals and UKIP to far less than a 0.8 ratio and we're still waiting for confirmation on whether the Greens will also be entitled to the same status.

    It is much harder for the broadcaster to give the same ratio to two or three parties as it does to one party. The reality will be plain once the offical period begins. I suspect you will be quite upset at the outcome.
    Even if it is less than 80% this time, I cannot see the BBC not treating UKIP and the LDs equally or it is asking for trouble. This can only be of benefit to UKIP. It was noticeable how much more coverage they got for a while round the Euro elections.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062

    I find the almost total absence of on the ground campaigning experience in fierce battles on this site quite amazing. Maybe three or 4 posters have actually done it. The rest are just talking theoreticals.

    I tried campaigning once and hated it. Given all sorts of lines to use with the public I realised very quickly I'd started acting like a politician with their annoying soundbites. I'd rather shout my mouth off on blogs instead.
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    antifrank said:

    My understanding is that the findings will be made public. One of the great things about the BPC is that commissioners of private polling can't go public with it without the data following.

    But will they have to release all the polling (said to be 100 seats)? Or can they cherry-pick the ones specifically mentioned to journalists?
    Good question. I expect we shall see some arguments about that.
    Looking at Anthony's article again, it's 100 polls, not 100 constituencies. I can't imagine that they would have spent money polling outside LibDem-held seats, apart from a couple such as Watford, but they may well have done multiple polls in a givien constituency.
    Which in turn leads me to suspect that there may have been three polls in a given constituency but we will only get to see the most favourable.
  • Options
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.

    Do you really think this will be any more than a simple statement from UKIP, Liberal and Green spokespeople at the end of each piece where the Labour and Conservative positions dominate?

    The Ofcom guidelines are clear. "Up to the same coverage as Labour and the Conservatives", not the same, up to. The broadcaster still has considerable leeway as to how they implement this.
    No. I've worked and operated the broadcasting rules during my time at the BBC. UKIP & the LDs will get 0.8 of the time of LAB & CON. The rest will be afterthoughts.

    In Scotland and Wales SNP and PC have that status.
    That's not how Ofcom set out their guidelines, they do not state an 80% rule. This is a different situation to anything previously where there were three parties and three parties only. There is no breach in the guidelines in limiting the Liberals and UKIP to far less than a 0.8 ratio and we're still waiting for confirmation on whether the Greens will also be entitled to the same status.

    It is much harder for the broadcaster to give the same ratio to two or three parties as it does to one party. The reality will be plain once the offical period begins. I suspect you will be quite upset at the outcome.
    I suspect that my superior experience and judgement will be proved right.

  • Options

    antifrank said:

    My understanding is that the findings will be made public. One of the great things about the BPC is that commissioners of private polling can't go public with it without the data following.

    But will they have to release all the polling (said to be 100 seats)? Or can they cherry-pick the ones specifically mentioned to journalists?
    Good question. I expect we shall see some arguments about that.
    Looking at Anthony's article again, it's 100 polls, not 100 constituencies. I can't imagine that they would have spent money polling outside LibDem-held seats, apart from a couple such as Watford, but they may well have done multiple polls in a given constituency.
    That is I believe a correct analysis. Some seats have had several polls. Others have had just one.

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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited February 2015


    Even if it is less than 80% this time, I cannot see the BBC not treating UKIP and the LDs equally or it is asking for trouble. This can only be of benefit to UKIP. It was noticeable how much more coverage they got for a while round the Euro elections.

    Oh I agree with this completely but the point I was making was against the idea that the Liberals can hope to not get squeezed because of their Major Party status once the Official campaign begins. I don't think this is realistic at all and the broadcasters will continue to marginalise their message.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,230

    FPT

    @Casino Royale

    Why would it damage the Tories? If they preannouce it, and it's publically popular, and then days later the Lib Dems and Labour vote it down then they'd be the ones risking damage. Particularly if Osborne manages the political presentation effectively - he can set an almighty trap.

    The key word here is 'shoehorn' and the expiry on 5th April of the existing IHT threshold level. The Lib Dems will want something they can campaign on too, so expect a trade on higher property taxes for the living with cuts for the deceased


    Have you forgotten the omnishambles budget already?

    The keyword here is 'class'. If Labour can ensure that the Tories get virtually no C2, DE voters then you can forget a majority and probably kiss goodbye to largest party. Handing them the chance to bang on about the Tories and their 'millionaire's tax avoidance measures' is handing it to them on a plate.

    The Libdems are using it as an example of how the Tories are unfair on tax on their website. If they want any credibility at all at this election they are not going to back down on it. If they did it would indicate they had learned nothing from the Tuition fees debacle.

    Look I want to see IHT scrapped altogether but frankly if Tories want to invite a whole world of pain by trying to do something that has massive predictable class overtones to it before the election by all means go ahead. It will be reminiscent of the omnishambles budget furore all over again.

    At this stage when all the economic markers seem to be going the Tories way I'd leave it alone. Put it back in the manifesto and leave it for next time. But hey knowing Tory strategic thinking it will likely be the first thing Osborne announces when he stands up.

    PS And I don't think the 'Pay more now so you have less not to be taxed when your dead' idea (higher property taxes) will impress anyone who its intended to impress. Frankly it sounds as misguided as Brown abolishing the 10p Tax rate.

    Agree with this. Doing something on IHT will just reinforce the Tories' image as being on the side of the rich.

    Far far better to do something at the bottom end e.g. a 10p tax rate or a cut in the basic rate. I also think introducing higher council tax bands at the top end is necessary because it is ridiculous and unfair to have someone in a £400K house pay the same council tax as someone in a £2 mio house.

    If the Tories are going to do anything they have to do something which shows that the recovery and the economy are for the many not the few.

  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,745
    I was living in the Meriden constituency back at the time of the 1992 election. My housemate offered his services to the local CLP and got told to go over to North Warwickshire, where it would be worthwhile campaigning.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.

    Do you really think this will be any more than a simple statement from UKIP, Liberal and Green spokespeople at the end of each piece where the Labour and Conservative positions dominate?

    The Ofcom guidelines are clear. "Up to the same coverage as Labour and the Conservatives", not the same, up to. The broadcaster still has considerable leeway as to how they implement this.
    No. I've worked and operated the broadcasting rules during my time at the BBC. UKIP & the LDs will get 0.8 of the time of LAB & CON. The rest will be afterthoughts.

    In Scotland and Wales SNP and PC have that status.
    That's not how Ofcom set out their guidelines, they do not state an 80% rule. This is a different situation to anything previously where there were three parties and three parties only. There is no breach in the guidelines in limiting the Liberals and UKIP to far less than a 0.8 ratio and we're still waiting for confirmation on whether the Greens will also be entitled to the same status.

    It is much harder for the broadcaster to give the same ratio to two or three parties as it does to one party. The reality will be plain once the offical period begins. I suspect you will be quite upset at the outcome.
    I suspect that my superior experience and judgement will be proved right.
    As I live in Scotland I have very recent experience of how broadcasters deal with more than three major parties and the marginalisation of the Tories and Liberals in the Holyrood elections. This would seem to be more relevant and more recent experience than that of a three party system some decades ago, perhaps?
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    JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 378
    If the Lib Dems are going to hold Solihull then they will hold nearly all their seats.

    It just isn't going to happen. Burt just held on with an even smaller majority in 2010 than 2005 with the benefit of the Cleggasm.

    The witless Lib Dems narrowly defeated Burt for deputy and instead elected the retiring Malcolm Bruce thereby removing a credibility enhancing opportunity for Burt.

    With the Greens standing for the first time (it is not the first time for UKIP), I think I feel pretty much as certain as I do about Salmond winning Gordon, as I do of Burt's defeat.

    Bear in mind that the Tories lost the seat in 2005 primarily because their MP was virtually of normal retirement age, and generally regarded as making little effort in the constituency. The Tories have chosen a younger and apparently more energetic candidate now.

    I am amazed that 2/7 is still available on the Tories (I got 2/5 a good while back.
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    I find the almost total absence of on the ground campaigning experience in fierce battles on this site quite amazing. Maybe three or 4 posters have actually done it. The rest are just talking theoreticals.

    I am so annoying I would have to campaign tactically for another party to achieve the desired result. I suspect the same is true of most PB-ers, including the 3 or 4 posters you refer to.

    Anyway I thought we were meant to analyse the polling data, not rely on first hand-experience which can only give rise to - shudder - ANECDOTES!
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited February 2015
    Colour me underwhelmed by these second-hand reports of Lib Dem private polling without figures to back them up. They sound like a reverse of the dodgy Oakeshott polls from last year to me.
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    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    I'm not betting on any single seats at the moment even though prices might shift. Things will look very different once the formal campaigns have opened on March 31st and the purples & yellows are getting guaranteed coverage.

    Do you really think this will be any more than a simple statement from UKIP, Liberal and Green spokespeople at the end of each piece where the Labour and Conservative positions dominate?

    The Ofcom guidelines are clear. "Up to the same coverage as Labour and the Conservatives", not the same, up to. The broadcaster still has considerable leeway as to how they implement this.
    No. I've worked and operated the broadcasting rules during my time at the BBC. UKIP & the LDs will get 0.8 of the time of LAB & CON. The rest will be afterthoughts.

    In Scotland and Wales SNP and PC have that status.
    That's not how Ofcom set out their guidelines, they do not state an 80% rule. This is a different situation to anything previously where there were three parties and three parties only. There is no breach in the guidelines in limiting the Liberals and UKIP to far less than a 0.8 ratio and we're still waiting for confirmation on whether the Greens will also be entitled to the same status.

    It is much harder for the broadcaster to give the same ratio to two or three parties as it does to one party. The reality will be plain once the offical period begins. I suspect you will be quite upset at the outcome.
    I suspect that my superior experience and judgement will be proved right.
    As I live in Scotland I have very recent experience of how broadcasters deal with more than three major parties and the marginalisation of the Tories and Liberals in the Holyrood elections. This would seem to be more relevant and more recent experience than that of a three party system some decades ago, perhaps?
    From living in England it doesn't appear that the Tory's get even close to 80% of the attention that Labour and the SNP do.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited February 2015
    This thread looks like yet another "why Dave cannot win" thread dressed up as a betting thread re LD incumbency./
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    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Be interesting to see what happens in euroland today. One would imagine their favourite supper, fudge, will be served at the last minute.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408
    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Jim McGovern is my MP and he has operated on the assumption that he has a seat for life for far too long. I was distinctly underwhelmed with his doorstep performance during the referendum too. It probably would not make any difference to the final outcome (except in scale) but Labour made a mistake in allowing him to stand again.

    I have been saying on here that I was tempted to vote tactically for Labour if it would stop the SNP taking the seat but I will not do so if they have no chance whatsoever. At the moment they are not coming close to persuading me they have a chance.
    I don't understand how can you state all this, accept what a terrible atrocious waste of space Mcgovern is, presumably living in Dundee can see the changes brought about by the SNP control of the council and freely admit that they are doing the right thing tackling school rationalisation and yet you won't support the SNP in an election where Independence is not on the table.
    Because I am a Tory and a Unionist and not necessarily in that order.

    I also believe that the referendum campaign was the most dishonest I have ever been involved in and that SNP economics does the impossible and make Labour look sane (well almost).
    While Greece crashes and burns we are going to have 2 left wing parties competing to throw the most unfunded goodies at the electorate. They are both a disgrace but one believes in my country and one doesn't.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited February 2015
    DavidL said:

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Jim McGovern is my MP and he has operated on the assumption that he has a seat for life for far too long. I was distinctly underwhelmed with his doorstep performance during the referendum too. It probably would not make any difference to the final outcome (except in scale) but Labour made a mistake in allowing him to stand again.

    I have been saying on here that I was tempted to vote tactically for Labour if it would stop the SNP taking the seat but I will not do so if they have no chance whatsoever. At the moment they are not coming close to persuading me they have a chance.
    I don't understand how can you state all this, accept what a terrible atrocious waste of space Mcgovern is, presumably living in Dundee can see the changes brought about by the SNP control of the council and freely admit that they are doing the right thing tackling school rationalisation and yet you won't support the SNP in an election where Independence is not on the table.
    Because I am a Tory and a Unionist and not necessarily in that order.

    I also believe that the referendum campaign was the most dishonest I have ever been involved in and that SNP economics does the impossible and make Labour look sane (well almost).
    While Greece crashes and burns we are going to have 2 left wing parties competing to throw the most unfunded goodies at the electorate. They are both a disgrace but one believes in my country and one doesn't.
    The Scottish government, by design, has to come on or under budget.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Jim McGovern is my MP and he has operated on the assumption that he has a seat for life for far too long. I was distinctly underwhelmed with his doorstep performance during the referendum too. It probably would not make any difference to the final outcome (except in scale) but Labour made a mistake in allowing him to stand again.

    I have been saying on here that I was tempted to vote tactically for Labour if it would stop the SNP taking the seat but I will not do so if they have no chance whatsoever. At the moment they are not coming close to persuading me they have a chance.
    I don't understand how can you state all this, accept what a terrible atrocious waste of space Mcgovern is, presumably living in Dundee can see the changes brought about by the SNP control of the council and freely admit that they are doing the right thing tackling school rationalisation and yet you won't support the SNP in an election where Independence is not on the table.
    Because I am a Tory and a Unionist and not necessarily in that order.

    I also believe that the referendum campaign was the most dishonest I have ever been involved in and that SNP economics does the impossible and make Labour look sane (well almost).
    While Greece crashes and burns we are going to have 2 left wing parties competing to throw the most unfunded goodies at the electorate. They are both a disgrace but one believes in my country and one doesn't.
    The Scottish government, by design, has to come on or under budget.
    Aren't borrowing powers part of the proposed new devolution package?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Jim McGovern is my MP and he has operated on the assumption that he has a seat for life for far too long. I was distinctly underwhelmed with his doorstep performance during the referendum too. It probably would not make any difference to the final outcome (except in scale) but Labour made a mistake in allowing him to stand again.

    I have been saying on here that I was tempted to vote tactically for Labour if it would stop the SNP taking the seat but I will not do so if they have no chance whatsoever. At the moment they are not coming close to persuading me they have a chance.
    I don't understand how can you state all this, accept what a terrible atrocious waste of space Mcgovern is, presumably living in Dundee can see the changes brought about by the SNP control of the council and freely admit that they are doing the right thing tackling school rationalisation and yet you won't support the SNP in an election where Independence is not on the table.
    Because I am a Tory and a Unionist and not necessarily in that order.

    I also believe that the referendum campaign was the most dishonest I have ever been involved in and that SNP economics does the impossible and make Labour look sane (well almost).
    While Greece crashes and burns we are going to have 2 left wing parties competing to throw the most unfunded goodies at the electorate. They are both a disgrace but one believes in my country and one doesn't.
    The Scottish government, by design, has to come on or under budget.
    This isn't a Holyrood vote though ;)
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited February 2015
    DavidL said:

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Jim McGovern is my MP and he has operated on the assumption that he has a seat for life for far too long. I was distinctly underwhelmed with his doorstep performance during the referendum too. It probably would not make any difference to the final outcome (except in scale) but Labour made a mistake in allowing him to stand again.

    I have been saying on here that I was tempted to vote tactically for Labour if it would stop the SNP taking the seat but I will not do so if they have no chance whatsoever. At the moment they are not coming close to persuading me they have a chance.
    I don't understand how can you state all this, accept what a terrible atrocious waste of space Mcgovern is, presumably living in Dundee can see the changes brought about by the SNP control of the council and freely admit that they are doing the right thing tackling school rationalisation and yet you won't support the SNP in an election where Independence is not on the table.
    Because I am a Tory and a Unionist and not necessarily in that order.

    I also believe that the referendum campaign was the most dishonest I have ever been involved in and that SNP economics does the impossible and make Labour look sane (well almost).
    While Greece crashes and burns we are going to have 2 left wing parties competing to throw the most unfunded goodies at the electorate. They are both a disgrace but one believes in my country and one doesn't.
    But that idea is ludicrous, the record of the SNP is one of fiscal prudence and smart spending choices. They are as Tory as the Tories in fiscal terms. They have good arguments for extending the deficit reduction (because unlike Personal Debt government debt does not EVER need repaid and can fall without being repaid). Dundee isn't the beneficiary of any particular Largesse to have benefited from an SNP council, they merely use the money to benefit the population instead of the Labour Party and their grandees.

    And if you do genuinely believe in the Union, then you must surely be aware that the only way it can possibly be saved from the position we are in today is via Full Fiscal Autonomy, nothing else can possibly prevent Independence and only an SNP landslide in May can achieve this.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    I was living in the Meriden constituency back at the time of the 1992 election. My housemate offered his services to the local CLP and got told to go over to North Warwickshire, where it would be worthwhile campaigning.

    And yet Coventry South is seemingly almost impossible to take for the Blues.
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    JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 378
    DavidL

    "one believes in my country and one doesn't. "

    The problem that you have is that a majority of people in Scotland believe that SCOTLAND is their country.

    The Brit Nat side achieved their pyrrhic victory in the Referendum by persuading enough of that majority that the best interests of Scotland lay in supporting the Union, not that the United Kingdom was their country.

    Even the GE2015 will be fought primarily on what is best for Scotland-even Ruth Davidson is reported on Reporting Scotland this lunch time (Tories Scotland conference) as criticising the bedroom tax (yes-she even called it the "bedroom tax")
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    This thread looks like yet another "why Dave cannot win" thread dressed up as a betting thread re LD incumbency./

    Solihull has behaved atypically at past elections, but if Dave doesn't gain Solihull then I can't see anything other than PM Miliband.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062
    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Jim McGovern is my MP and he has operated on the assumption that he has a seat for life for far too long. I was distinctly underwhelmed with his doorstep performance during the referendum too. It probably would not make any difference to the final outcome (except in scale) but Labour made a mistake in allowing him to stand again.

    I have been saying on here that I was tempted to vote tactically for Labour if it would stop the SNP taking the seat but I will not do so if they have no chance whatsoever. At the moment they are not coming close to persuading me they have a chance.
    I don't understand how can you state all this, accept what a terrible atrocious waste of space Mcgovern is, presumably living in Dundee can see the changes brought about by the SNP control of the council and freely admit that they are doing the right thing tackling school rationalisation and yet you won't support the SNP in an election where Independence is not on the table.
    Because I am a Tory and a Unionist and not necessarily in that order.

    I also believe that the referendum campaign was the most dishonest I have ever been involved in and that SNP economics does the impossible and make Labour look sane (well almost).
    While Greece crashes and burns we are going to have 2 left wing parties competing to throw the most unfunded goodies at the electorate. They are both a disgrace but one believes in my country and one doesn't.
    But that idea is ludicrous, the record of the SNP is one of fiscal prudence and smart spending choices. They are as Tory as the Tories in fiscal terms. They have good arguments for extending the deficit reduction (because unlike Personal Debt government debt does not EVER need repaid and can fall without being repaid). Dundee isn't the beneficiary of any particular Largesse to have benefited from an SNP council, they merely use the money to benefit the population instead of the Labour Party and their grandees.

    And if you do genuinely believe in the Union, then you must surely be aware that the only way it can possibly be saved from the position we are in today is via Full Fiscal Autonomy, nothing else can possibly prevent Independence and only an SNP landslide in May can achieve this.
    Full fiscal autonomy would presumably mean no more Barnett? Hardly autonomous otherwise.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited February 2015

    Dair said:

    But that idea is ludicrous, the record of the SNP is one of fiscal prudence and smart spending choices. They are as Tory as the Tories in fiscal terms. They have good arguments for extending the deficit reduction (because unlike Personal Debt government debt does not EVER need repaid and can fall without being repaid). Dundee isn't the beneficiary of any particular Largesse to have benefited from an SNP council, they merely use the money to benefit the population instead of the Labour Party and their grandees.

    And if you do genuinely believe in the Union, then you must surely be aware that the only way it can possibly be saved from the position we are in today is via Full Fiscal Autonomy, nothing else can possibly prevent Independence and only an SNP landslide in May can achieve this.

    Full fiscal autonomy would presumably mean no more Barnett? Hardly autonomous otherwise.
    Absolutely it would. Isn't that also something a Tory should be supporting? Only the SNP can end Barnett.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    edited February 2015
    @Dair If Trident renewal goes ahead, and Scotland has FFA then what happens on the Clyde (Not a trolling question)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    JPJ2 said:

    DavidL

    "one believes in my country and one doesn't. "

    The problem that you have is that a majority of people in Scotland believe that SCOTLAND is their country.

    The Brit Nat side achieved their pyrrhic victory in the Referendum by persuading enough of that majority that the best interests of Scotland lay in supporting the Union, not that the United Kingdom was their country.

    Even the GE2015 will be fought primarily on what is best for Scotland-even Ruth Davidson is reported on Reporting Scotland this lunch time (Tories Scotland conference) as criticising the bedroom tax (yes-she even called it the "bedroom tax")

    Was a VERY pyrrhic victory for Scottish Labour.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited February 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair If Trident renewal goes ahead, and Scotland has FFA then what happens on the Clyde (Not a trolling question)

    I would expect that both questions will have the same answer - are the SNP holding the keys to No 10. If they are then Trident will not be upgraded but the existing system continue to be based at Faslane (which is why Sturgeon makes it clear it is the Upgrade which is her red line).

    FFA is obviously more complex in delivery given the easiest way to achieve it is very risky for the SNP. They might get away with a FFA for EVEL deal with the Tories because, effectively they would remove the Tories from Scottish decisions forever. However, it would work even better as a bargaining tool to get Labour to accept the inevitable.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062
    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair If Trident renewal goes ahead, and Scotland has FFA then what happens on the Clyde (Not a trolling question)

    I would expect that both questions will have the same answer - are the SNP holding the keys to No 10. If they are then Trident will not be upgraded but the existing system continue to be based at Faslane (which is why Sturgeon makes it clear it is the Upgrade which is her red line).
    What if neither Labour or the Tories will meet the SNP's red line? Do you force another GE?

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    isamisam Posts: 41,008
    edited February 2015
    I canvassed for Carswell in Frinton and Jaywick and three people said they were only backing UKIP because of my patter.. so a 1/1 record
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Ho hum,

    Sounds to me like Clegg is on a knife edge even if he's named:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/19/lib-dem-polling-brings-hope-of-future-coalition-role

    "Party officials are confident that Nick Clegg will retain his seat despite three polls showing he is behind. Photograph: Andy Rain/EPA"

    "Party officials are confident that Clegg will retain his seat in Sheffield Hallam despite three polls showing he is behind. They admit the seat has switched from being a Lib Dem/Tory fight to a contest against Labour, but are confident that the large Conservative vote in the seat can be squeezed by warning of the dangers of a Labour government with an overall majority."

    I say this as a Clegg net backer.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair If Trident renewal goes ahead, and Scotland has FFA then what happens on the Clyde (Not a trolling question)

    I would expect that both questions will have the same answer - are the SNP holding the keys to No 10. If they are then Trident will not be upgraded but the existing system continue to be based at Faslane (which is why Sturgeon makes it clear it is the Upgrade which is her red line).
    What if neither Labour or the Tories will meet the SNP's red line? Do you force another GE?

    If you're the SNP? I'm not sure you need to, you abstain, leaving a Labour/Liberal coalition to form while making it clear you will pull down the government if any budget harms Scotland or commissions Trident 2 and campaign in 2016 for a new Referendum given you can now demonstrate that a clear Scottish voice has no audience in Westminster.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,994
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair If Trident renewal goes ahead, and Scotland has FFA then what happens on the Clyde (Not a trolling question)

    I would expect that both questions will have the same answer - are the SNP holding the keys to No 10. If they are then Trident will not be upgraded but the existing system continue to be based at Faslane (which is why Sturgeon makes it clear it is the Upgrade which is her red line).
    What if neither Labour or the Tories will meet the SNP's red line? Do you force another GE?

    If you're the SNP? I'm not sure you need to, you abstain, leaving a Labour/Liberal coalition to form while making it clear you will pull down the government if any budget harms Scotland or commissions Trident 2 and campaign in 2016 for a new Referendum given you can now demonstrate that a clear Scottish voice has no audience in Westminster.
    So 2 years is the SNP definition of a generation, is it? ;)
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    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair If Trident renewal goes ahead, and Scotland has FFA then what happens on the Clyde (Not a trolling question)

    I would expect that both questions will have the same answer - are the SNP holding the keys to No 10. If they are then Trident will not be upgraded but the existing system continue to be based at Faslane (which is why Sturgeon makes it clear it is the Upgrade which is her red line).
    What if neither Labour or the Tories will meet the SNP's red line? Do you force another GE?

    If you're the SNP? I'm not sure you need to, you abstain, leaving a Labour/Liberal coalition to form while making it clear you will pull down the government if any budget harms Scotland or commissions Trident 2 and campaign in 2016 for a new Referendum given you can now demonstrate that a clear Scottish voice has no audience in Westminster.
    Indeed. It leads to independence sooner or later. And the loss of the pound. And their banks and financial services industry. It kills spendyism in Scotland.
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    Full fiscal autonomy's utterly incompatible with the current system, and English votes for English laws simply would not do as a pathetic left-over to try and satisfy England.

    A federal approach could work. But the Conservatives don't want to emasculate Westminster, and the left want to carve England into little political fiefdoms.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    WeLoveWindows8 richardbunning 40m ago

    0
    1
    The Liberal Democrats will be returned in May with increased majorities. Clegg and Alexander will not lose their seats, they are respected by the nation for their hard work and personal sacrifice in getting the economic recovery on track.

    People instinctively trust the Lib Dems, and when they see the alternative of Labour / SNP / UKIP or Green, they will all flock back to Clegg and stand behind him.

    By George !

    That avatar looks familiar.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/19/lib-dem-polling-brings-hope-of-future-coalition-role
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,745
    If the LibDems want to differentiate themselves from the Tories, they could vote down Osborne's budget. That would be a #yellowswan event!
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408
    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:


    I have been saying on here that I was tempted to vote tactically for Labour if it would stop the SNP taking the seat but I will not do so if they have no chance whatsoever. At the moment they are not coming close to persuading me they have a chance.
    I don't understand how can you state all this, accept what a terrible atrocious waste of space Mcgovern is, presumably living in Dundee can see the changes brought about by the SNP control of the council and freely admit that they are doing the right thing tackling school rationalisation and yet you won't support the SNP in an election where Independence is not on the table.
    Because I am a Tory and a Unionist and not necessarily in that order.

    I also believe that the referendum campaign was the most dishonest I have ever been involved in and that SNP economics does the impossible and make Labour look sane (well almost).
    While Greece crashes and burns we are going to have 2 left wing parties competing to throw the most unfunded goodies at the electorate. They are both a disgrace but one believes in my country and one doesn't.
    But that idea is ludicrous, the record of the SNP is one of fiscal prudence and smart spending choices. They are as Tory as the Tories in fiscal terms. They have good arguments for extending the deficit reduction (because unlike Personal Debt government debt does not EVER need repaid and can fall without being repaid). Dundee isn't the beneficiary of any particular Largesse to have benefited from an SNP council, they merely use the money to benefit the population instead of the Labour Party and their grandees.

    And if you do genuinely believe in the Union, then you must surely be aware that the only way it can possibly be saved from the position we are in today is via Full Fiscal Autonomy, nothing else can possibly prevent Independence and only an SNP landslide in May can achieve this.
    Smart spending choices? Where do I start? Maybe excusing people like me from paying prescription charges so people dying of cancer can't get drugs Scotland can't afford? Or the devastation wreaked on the Scottish college system to pay for the absurd promise of no tuition fees? Or the ever decreasing number of places available at those universities for Scottish kids unless they can contrive an English address? O
    I could go on forever but I need to pick my kids up from the private school I had to pay to send them to to avoid the calamity that is Curriculum for Excellence.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    If the LibDems want to differentiate themselves from the Tories, they could vote down Osborne's budget. That would be a #yellowswan event!

    They won't :P
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    Pulpstar said:

    WeLoveWindows8 richardbunning 40m ago

    0
    1
    The Liberal Democrats will be returned in May with increased majorities. Clegg and Alexander will not lose their seats, they are respected by the nation for their hard work and personal sacrifice in getting the economic recovery on track.

    People instinctively trust the Lib Dems, and when they see the alternative of Labour / SNP / UKIP or Green, they will all flock back to Clegg and stand behind him.

    By George !

    That avatar looks familiar.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/19/lib-dem-polling-brings-hope-of-future-coalition-role

    His other comments are entertaining too: https://profile.theguardian.com/user/id/13856829
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Patrick said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair If Trident renewal goes ahead, and Scotland has FFA then what happens on the Clyde (Not a trolling question)

    I would expect that both questions will have the same answer - are the SNP holding the keys to No 10. If they are then Trident will not be upgraded but the existing system continue to be based at Faslane (which is why Sturgeon makes it clear it is the Upgrade which is her red line).
    What if neither Labour or the Tories will meet the SNP's red line? Do you force another GE?

    If you're the SNP? I'm not sure you need to, you abstain, leaving a Labour/Liberal coalition to form while making it clear you will pull down the government if any budget harms Scotland or commissions Trident 2 and campaign in 2016 for a new Referendum given you can now demonstrate that a clear Scottish voice has no audience in Westminster.
    Indeed. It leads to independence sooner or later. And the loss of the pound. And their banks and financial services industry. It kills spendyism in Scotland.
    Whether your fanciful dreams of the fiscal death of Scotland is true or not, it is the goal of the SNP to achieve Independence and to gain maximum benefit for Scotland until that happens. The latter is already overwhelmingly supported by the population of Scotland the the former is in crossover territory.

    So there is no problem with this outcome.
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    If the LibDems want to differentiate themselves from the Tories, they could vote down Osborne's budget. That would be a #yellowswan event!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Dair said:

    Patrick said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair If Trident renewal goes ahead, and Scotland has FFA then what happens on the Clyde (Not a trolling question)

    I would expect that both questions will have the same answer - are the SNP holding the keys to No 10. If they are then Trident will not be upgraded but the existing system continue to be based at Faslane (which is why Sturgeon makes it clear it is the Upgrade which is her red line).
    What if neither Labour or the Tories will meet the SNP's red line? Do you force another GE?

    If you're the SNP? I'm not sure you need to, you abstain, leaving a Labour/Liberal coalition to form while making it clear you will pull down the government if any budget harms Scotland or commissions Trident 2 and campaign in 2016 for a new Referendum given you can now demonstrate that a clear Scottish voice has no audience in Westminster.
    Indeed. It leads to independence sooner or later. And the loss of the pound. And their banks and financial services industry. It kills spendyism in Scotland.
    Whether your fanciful dreams of the fiscal death of Scotland is true or not
    Werent you the one worrying about the fiscal death of Scotland due to the unaffordability of state pensions?
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Neil said:

    Dair said:

    Patrick said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair If Trident renewal goes ahead, and Scotland has FFA then what happens on the Clyde (Not a trolling question)

    I would expect that both questions will have the same answer - are the SNP holding the keys to No 10. If they are then Trident will not be upgraded but the existing system continue to be based at Faslane (which is why Sturgeon makes it clear it is the Upgrade which is her red line).
    What if neither Labour or the Tories will meet the SNP's red line? Do you force another GE?

    If you're the SNP? I'm not sure you need to, you abstain, leaving a Labour/Liberal coalition to form while making it clear you will pull down the government if any budget harms Scotland or commissions Trident 2 and campaign in 2016 for a new Referendum given you can now demonstrate that a clear Scottish voice has no audience in Westminster.
    Indeed. It leads to independence sooner or later. And the loss of the pound. And their banks and financial services industry. It kills spendyism in Scotland.
    Whether your fanciful dreams of the fiscal death of Scotland is true or not
    Werent you the one worrying about the fiscal death of Scotland due to the unaffordability of state pensions?
    No. It was the inevitable fiscal death of the United Kingdom.
  • Options
    Dair said:

    Patrick said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair If Trident renewal goes ahead, and Scotland has FFA then what happens on the Clyde (Not a trolling question)

    I would expect that both questions will have the same answer - are the SNP holding the keys to No 10. If they are then Trident will not be upgraded but the existing system continue to be based at Faslane (which is why Sturgeon makes it clear it is the Upgrade which is her red line).
    What if neither Labour or the Tories will meet the SNP's red line? Do you force another GE?

    If you're the SNP? I'm not sure you need to, you abstain, leaving a Labour/Liberal coalition to form while making it clear you will pull down the government if any budget harms Scotland or commissions Trident 2 and campaign in 2016 for a new Referendum given you can now demonstrate that a clear Scottish voice has no audience in Westminster.
    Indeed. It leads to independence sooner or later. And the loss of the pound. And their banks and financial services industry. It kills spendyism in Scotland.
    Whether your fanciful dreams of the fiscal death of Scotland is true or not, it is the goal of the SNP to achieve Independence and to gain maximum benefit for Scotland until that happens. The latter is already overwhelmingly supported by the population of Scotland the the former is in crossover territory.

    So there is no problem with this outcome.
    I would welcome it. But all the issues around currency, central bank, lender of last resort, deficit funding, etc, etc at the time of Sindy are as valid now and in the future as they were then. The collapse of the Euro dream has also killed the realistic prospects for an independent Scotland to run anything other than a 'sound money' balanced budget policy.

    Sure, the SNP's clear objective for now is to milk England for every penny they can. But if it leads to actual full and final independence I for one think they will rue the day.
  • Options
    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Dair said:

    Neil said:

    Dair said:

    Patrick said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Dair If Trident renewal goes ahead, and Scotland has FFA then what happens on the Clyde (Not a trolling question)

    I would expect that both questions will have the same answer - are the SNP holding the keys to No 10. If they are then Trident will not be upgraded but the existing system continue to be based at Faslane (which is why Sturgeon makes it clear it is the Upgrade which is her red line).
    What if neither Labour or the Tories will meet the SNP's red line? Do you force another GE?

    If you're the SNP? I'm not sure you need to, you abstain, leaving a Labour/Liberal coalition to form while making it clear you will pull down the government if any budget harms Scotland or commissions Trident 2 and campaign in 2016 for a new Referendum given you can now demonstrate that a clear Scottish voice has no audience in Westminster.
    Indeed. It leads to independence sooner or later. And the loss of the pound. And their banks and financial services industry. It kills spendyism in Scotland.
    Whether your fanciful dreams of the fiscal death of Scotland is true or not
    Werent you the one worrying about the fiscal death of Scotland due to the unaffordability of state pensions?
    No. It was the inevitable fiscal death of the United Kingdom.
    I'm not sure that offering better state pensions (potentially payable from a younger age) would make the situation in an independent Scotland much more sustainable than in the UK but your entire premise is bonkers anyway.

  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited February 2015
    LD + tory leaflets in solihull;

    http://imgur.com/1mvcnyR,PPabmw6,INKdpLv,JiuAn48,7ENOqkc,MNlXJ5X,HZtbXUV#1

    No Nick Clegg and no bar chart :)
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,994
    Pong said:

    LD + tory leaflets in solihull;

    http://imgur.com/1mvcnyR,PPabmw6,INKdpLv,JiuAn48,7ENOqkc,MNlXJ5X,HZtbXUV#1

    No Nick Clegg and no bar chart :)

    It's also upside down ;) Schoolboy printing error.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    Pong said:

    LD + tory leaflets in solihull;

    http://imgur.com/1mvcnyR,PPabmw6,INKdpLv,JiuAn48,7ENOqkc,MNlXJ5X,HZtbXUV#1

    No Nick Clegg and no bar chart :)

    It's also upside down ;) Schoolboy printing error.
    To be fair, that might have been the leafleting team's fault, if they'd posted it wrongly.
This discussion has been closed.