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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The sure guide to knowing if you live in a marginal – how m

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited February 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The sure guide to knowing if you live in a marginal – how much is coming through your letterbox

The above polling by Ipsos at GE10 says a lot. By the final week just over a quarter of those sampled in its marginals polling realised that that was the status of their seat.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited February 2015
    First...and O/t I know but....

    SKY News

    Singer Leslie Gore, who topped the US charts in 1963 with her song about teenage angst called It's My Party, has died. Her hits in the early 60s also included Judy's Turn to Cry, You Don't Own Me, She's A Fool, That's The Way Boys Are and Maybe I Know.

    Gore, who had cancer, died aged 68 at New York-Presbyterian Hospital in Manhattan.

    Legend.....

    She didn't need leaflets only a voice.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038
    Second! I see Guido is reporting on a shocking Tory 'cash for access' scandal....
  • It seems a bit quaint to have a ban on inefficient, hard-to-focus TV ads while allowing highly efficient, focussed advertising on social media. In US presidential elections they have small enough media markets and big enough states that they can target marginal states without too much wastage. But if British parties were allowed to run TV ads, would they even bother? If each party is only trying to swing maybe one voter in twenty, it seems very wasteful to have to buy TV time covering an entire region that could be more productively used by a washing powder company that has stuff they want to sell to everybody.
  • Hengists_GiftHengists_Gift Posts: 628
    edited February 2015

    It seems a bit quaint to have a ban on inefficient, hard-to-focus TV ads while allowing highly efficient, focussed advertising on social media. In US presidential elections they have small enough media markets and big enough states that they can target marginal states without too much wastage. But if British parties were allowed to run TV ads, would they even bother? If each party is only trying to swing maybe one voter in twenty, it seems very wasteful to have to buy TV time covering an entire region that could be more productively used by a washing powder company that has stuff they want to sell to everybody.

    It also seems a bit quaint that we can turn off Shockwave flash and install adblock to stop the vast majority of those interminable internet ads but we are forced to suffer the generally mindless drivel of TV ads without the ability to actively block any of them.

    Why would they bother? Because they can and the Tories in particular have money to burn on such exercises (before the main campaign that is). We would be inundated with the damn things right now if they weren't banned. Its bad enough that we have at least three and perhaps up to six government departments pumping out thinly veiled pro-coalition campaign propaganda (Broadband roll out, citizen's service, help to buy scheme etc etc). none of which I believe. appeared on our screens until after Christmas conveniently.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,628
    I don't think the Tories, or anyone else, has money to burn. The total budget for the conservatives 2015 election campaign will be roughly similar to what the Democrats would spend in - rather safe - new Jersey. On congressional races.
  • And so it rumbles on......

    Ed Balls among 12 shadow cabinet members who claimed expenses without receipts
    Following shadow chancellor's advice that everyone should get a receipt for cash in hand jobs, Labour MPs put in spotlight over their expense claims


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11416788/Ed-Balls-among-12-shadow-cabinet-members-who-claimed-expenses-without-receipts.html

    Its a Great week for Ed!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,038
  • Hengists_GiftHengists_Gift Posts: 628
    edited February 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    I don't think the Tories, or anyone else, has money to burn. The total budget for the conservatives 2015 election campaign will be roughly similar to what the Democrats would spend in - rather safe - new Jersey. On congressional races.

    Granted it is the Guardian but this suggests that the Tories have well over double the funding they could spend during the campaign period. If its to be believed they could fully fund two election campaigns and still have £13 million spare. Money to burn Ok perhaps not but not far off and that's not to say additional funding wouldn't be made available if they knew they could spend it.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/13/tories-david-cameron-buy-election-campaign-spending
  • Hengists_GiftHengists_Gift Posts: 628
    edited February 2015
    RobD said:
    How bizarre! If they were going to recycle 6 month old articles the last person I would pick is that veritable swivel-eyed nutter.
  • I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....
  • I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
  • I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2015
    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    How is hostility measured. A "do you like/dislike question" is a binary choice, it doesn't give you any indications of how intense the feeling is. Most voters don't have intense feelings about any politician, its just something on the news that momentarily annoys them before they get on with life.

    It might be fair to say that *more* voters are hostile to UKIP than kippers are to Cameron, but I am not sure you can attribute any relative strength or passion to those feelings. The real picture is more likely to be "quite a lot of voters are marginally unimpressed by UKIP, slightly less UKIP member really didn't have much time for Cameron"

    I'm a BoO Tory, about as un-Miliband as you can get, and I am not "hostile" to him, I think he's a bit of a dick, and would make a bad leader of the country, but hostile puts it way too strongly. If that's how I feel, most voters really wont give a cr@p.
  • Indigo said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    How is hostility measured. A "do you like/dislike question" is a binary choice, it doesn't give you any indications of how intense the feeling is. Most voters don't have intense feelings about any politician, its just something on the news that momentarily annoys them before they get on with life.

    It might be fair to say that *more* voters are hostile to UKIP than kippers are to Cameron, but I am not sure you can attribute any relative strength or passion to those feelings. The real picture is more likely to be "quite a lot of voters are marginally unimpressed by UKIP, slightly less UKIP member really didn't have much time for Cameron"
    See the previous thread header, which measures intensity of feeling. The real picture is just as I stated it.
  • Hengists_GiftHengists_Gift Posts: 628
    edited February 2015
    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.

    That is of course once they've digested that MPs in Westminster want to corrupt their children at ever younger ages.
  • PM: Young Unemployed Will Work For Benefits

    David Cameron says his reforms aim to end long-term unemployment and help youngsters understand "welfare is not a one-way street".


    http://news.sky.com/story/1428774/pm-young-unemployed-will-work-for-benefits

    So how does Cameron square this with the minimum wage? There is no way the government can afford to pay them £154 per week surely? Won't charities and so forth stop paying employees if they think they can get unemployed serfs for virtually nothing?

    I do not believe for a moment that a minority Tory government has a cat's chance of putting this through

    As Iain Martin would say we need the detail!
  • antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
  • antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
  • antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    Ah, we're onto the Millwall defence. How sweet.
  • antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    Ah, we're onto the Millwall defence. How sweet.
    Whatever you say. Now do please excuse I've not slept yet and I intend to!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Indigo said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    How is hostility measured. A "do you like/dislike question" is a binary choice, it doesn't give you any indications of how intense the feeling is. Most voters don't have intense feelings about any politician, its just something on the news that momentarily annoys them before they get on with life.

    It might be fair to say that *more* voters are hostile to UKIP than kippers are to Cameron, but I am not sure you can attribute any relative strength or passion to those feelings. The real picture is more likely to be "quite a lot of voters are marginally unimpressed by UKIP, slightly less UKIP member really didn't have much time for Cameron"

    I'm a BoO Tory, about as un-Miliband as you can get, and I am not "hostile" to him, I think he's a bit of a dick, and would make a bad leader of the country, but hostile puts it way too strongly. If that's how I feel, most voters really wont give a cr@p.
    What matters (in electoral terms) is what the voters think of UKIP in the places they're targeting. Voters in the UK as a whole don't think highly of the SNP and DUP, but that tells us nothing about how either party will perform in Scotland or Northern Ireland respectively.

    Likewise, it's what the voters think of UKIP in Kent, Essex, Lincolnshire, South Yorkshire, Devon and Cornwall, that will determine how the party performs on May 7th.

  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Morning all and clearly no-one is treating Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross as a marginal.
    We received a 2015 calendar from our sitting SNP MSP in December and the usual quarterly newsletter from John Thurso before Christmas confirming what he has been doing as our MP. Yesterday his current newsletter arrived. That is it.

    I have no idea who the Labour candidate is and I know the Tories have not yet selected a candidate. The SNP selected their candidate a few weeks ago but I have no idea who he is or where he lives.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    PM: Young Unemployed Will Work For Benefits

    David Cameron says his reforms aim to end long-term unemployment and help youngsters understand "welfare is not a one-way street".


    http://news.sky.com/story/1428774/pm-young-unemployed-will-work-for-benefits

    So how does Cameron square this with the minimum wage? There is no way the government can afford to pay them £154 per week surely? Won't charities and so forth stop paying employees if they think they can get unemployed serfs for virtually nothing?

    I do not believe for a moment that a minority Tory government has a cat's chance of putting this through

    As Iain Martin would say we need the detail!

    Kippers banging on about the feckless keeping their benefits and reintroducing the bedroom tax. Must be a danger of the left vote being split between the 4 left wing parties ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    Perhaps it is indicative of where SLAB stand but in Dundee West we have not had a political leaflet since last September and the referendum campaign. At the last election this was a safe Labour seat. Now I really wonder if they have given up.

    We did see SLAB in Dundee City centre a couple of weeks ago with a stall. No sign of Jim McGovern though although tbh it was a bit like that in the referendum too until the last couple of weeks. His failure to capitalise on a major local school controversy discussed on here recently is pretty indicative of a man heading into retirement as well.

    For all the noise from the SNP I do wonder if a bit of post referendum fatigue has set in. Nothing from them either and we have an SNP councillor in the village.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    TGOHF said:

    PM: Young Unemployed Will Work For Benefits

    David Cameron says his reforms aim to end long-term unemployment and help youngsters understand "welfare is not a one-way street".


    http://news.sky.com/story/1428774/pm-young-unemployed-will-work-for-benefits

    So how does Cameron square this with the minimum wage? There is no way the government can afford to pay them £154 per week surely? Won't charities and so forth stop paying employees if they think they can get unemployed serfs for virtually nothing?

    I do not believe for a moment that a minority Tory government has a cat's chance of putting this through

    As Iain Martin would say we need the detail!

    Kippers banging on about the feckless keeping their benefits and reintroducing the bedroom tax. Must be a danger of the left vote being split between the 4 left wing parties ?
    In principle I am in favour of a "workfare" approach, I don't see why people who are receiving benefits from society, so long as they have sufficient health, shouldn't contribute to society in some productive way rather than sitting on the sofa playing with their Xbox. However the scheme needs to be carefully thought out, otherwise employers will start sacking their paid gophers and floor sweepers, and replacing them with cheap people off benefits.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    Ah, we're onto the Millwall defence. How sweet.
    Where would you rather be, if you're an insurgent party? Have 30% of the population open to voting for you, and 70% hostile? Or be met with indifference? Motivating people to go out and vote for you is the thing that matters.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020

    PM: Young Unemployed Will Work For Benefits

    David Cameron says his reforms aim to end long-term unemployment and help youngsters understand "welfare is not a one-way street".


    http://news.sky.com/story/1428774/pm-young-unemployed-will-work-for-benefits

    So how does Cameron square this with the minimum wage? There is no way the government can afford to pay them £154 per week surely? Won't charities and so forth stop paying employees if they think they can get unemployed serfs for virtually nothing?

    I do not believe for a moment that a minority Tory government has a cat's chance of putting this through

    As Iain Martin would say we need the detail!

    The rather fundamental misconception here is that being required to do something for benefits is not a job. If you want to get paid the minimum rate for a job go get one.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Just looking at yesterday's 4 polls I see the common thing is Labour down except in Ashcroft where it stood still and the Tories fell.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2015
    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:



    Ah, we're onto the Millwall defence. How sweet.

    Where would you rather be, if you're an insurgent party? Have 30% of the population open to voting for you, and 70% hostile? Or be met with indifference? Motivating people to go out and vote for you is the thing that matters.
    Yes I understand that. If Cameron screws the pooch over the EU referendum, or come to that if we have five years of Miliband fannying around while the economy nosedives and the country suffocates under a new blanket of political correctness, I think the kippers will be comfortably in the 20's next election, especially if they have a nice set of second places this time around to embolden potential voters. Antifrank might need to consider emigrating ;)

    Personally I think this whole like/dislike measure is a load of tosh. Its going to be subject to rampant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_desirability_bias, I know plenty of people that are planning to vote kipper, but wouldn't tell their friends for fear or ridicule or ostracism, no chance they would tell the nice young lady on the telephone.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    PM: Young Unemployed Will Work For Benefits

    David Cameron says his reforms aim to end long-term unemployment and help youngsters understand "welfare is not a one-way street".


    http://news.sky.com/story/1428774/pm-young-unemployed-will-work-for-benefits

    So how does Cameron square this with the minimum wage? There is no way the government can afford to pay them £154 per week surely? Won't charities and so forth stop paying employees if they think they can get unemployed serfs for virtually nothing?

    I do not believe for a moment that a minority Tory government has a cat's chance of putting this through

    As Iain Martin would say we need the detail!

    Kippers banging on about the feckless keeping their benefits and reintroducing the bedroom tax. Must be a danger of the left vote being split between the 4 left wing parties ?
    In principle I am in favour of a "workfare" approach, I don't see why people who are receiving benefits from society, so long as they have sufficient health, shouldn't contribute to society in some productive way rather than sitting on the sofa playing with their Xbox. However the scheme needs to be carefully thought out, otherwise employers will start sacking their paid gophers and floor sweepers, and replacing them with cheap people off benefits.
    Are you not concerned by this lurch to the left by the Kippers ? Has coincided with the chap from the Express throwing his weight around.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    Just looking at yesterday's 4 polls I see the common thing is Labour down except in Ashcroft where it stood still and the Tories fell.

    I suspect this phenomena will become known as "Ed on the telly".
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712
    I’ve voted at every GE since 1959 and I really don’t recall one where a) the Conservatives came across as so hard and unfeeling on the “poor”, deserving or undeserving, or b) the Labout Party had so many iuncosted and apparently unthought through policies (with the possible exception of 1983).
    Or, come to that, where the Liberals/LibDems were so quiet. Or possibly unreported.
  • PurseybearPurseybear Posts: 766
    edited February 2015
    Cripes The Sun front is something else. Bloomin' vicious against Miliband.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1428762/tuesdays-national-newspaper-front-pages

    One thing re media pple whinge about anti-Tory bias in BBC but it's nothing like the anti-Miliband bias in the current rightwing printed press.

    Overall bit of an uptick for Tories yesterday. Finding this hard to call.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @TelePolitics: Of all the political sins, hypocrisy is worst - especially for Labour http://t.co/Uv78aBfKKR
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    I’ve voted at every GE since 1959 and I really don’t recall one where a) the Conservatives came across as so hard and unfeeling on the “poor”, deserving or undeserving, or b) the Labout Party had so many iuncosted and apparently unthought through policies (with the possible exception of 1983).
    Or, come to that, where the Liberals/LibDems were so quiet. Or possibly unreported.

    Or possibly moribund.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    TGOHF said:
    It was clear that Ed Balls was lying as soon as he opened his mouth. If you use that as a guide you will not go wrong. All politicians are deceitful, its in their DNA, but Balls lies somehow really grate. He is as about as untrustworthy as a politician as its possible to get.

    It was inevitable that the media would go for the jugular.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712

    I’ve voted at every GE since 1959 and I really don’t recall one where a) the Conservatives came across as so hard and unfeeling on the “poor”, deserving or undeserving, or b) the Labout Party had so many iuncosted and apparently unthought through policies (with the possible exception of 1983).
    Or, come to that, where the Liberals/LibDems were so quiet. Or possibly unreported.

    Or possibly moribund.
    Certainly appear to be locally, although it’s never been a strong area. Odd, considering there’s a LibDem held seat very close.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    Just looking at yesterday's 4 polls I see the common thing is Labour down except in Ashcroft where it stood still and the Tories fell.

    And that after the Labour shills on here told us it was Labour's best week in years. I'd hate to see what their worst brings. Although, may not have to wait long for that....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    It was clear that Ed Balls was lying as soon as he opened his mouth.

    @SophyRidgeSky: A Times reader asks the question everyone is wondering about... http://t.co/n75PEm2yAL
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The problem with Mr Miliband is not so much that he is a dangerous extremist; in Germany or Sweden he would be considered solidly centrist. It is that he appears unable to couch, or even consider, his earnestly held beliefs in such a way as to build a consensus of support for them. The impression is of a political autistic, with extraordinarily little awareness of how he comes across or willingness to learn from his mistakes. That is a worrying trait in the man pitching to be Britain’s next leader.
    http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21643142-labour-partys-campaign-patchwork-angry-protests-no-coherent-theme
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    TGOHF said:

    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    PM: Young Unemployed Will Work For Benefits

    David Cameron says his reforms aim to end long-term unemployment and help youngsters understand "welfare is not a one-way street".


    http://news.sky.com/story/1428774/pm-young-unemployed-will-work-for-benefits

    So how does Cameron square this with the minimum wage? There is no way the government can afford to pay them £154 per week surely? Won't charities and so forth stop paying employees if they think they can get unemployed serfs for virtually nothing?

    I do not believe for a moment that a minority Tory government has a cat's chance of putting this through

    As Iain Martin would say we need the detail!

    Kippers banging on about the feckless keeping their benefits and reintroducing the bedroom tax. Must be a danger of the left vote being split between the 4 left wing parties ?
    In principle I am in favour of a "workfare" approach, I don't see why people who are receiving benefits from society, so long as they have sufficient health, shouldn't contribute to society in some productive way rather than sitting on the sofa playing with their Xbox. However the scheme needs to be carefully thought out, otherwise employers will start sacking their paid gophers and floor sweepers, and replacing them with cheap people off benefits.
    Are you not concerned by this lurch to the left by the Kippers ? Has coincided with the chap from the Express throwing his weight around.
    As a Tory ? Nope, not my problem ;)

    I don't think its a lurch to the left as such, I think its populists doing what populists do, spotting what looks like a policy the public will like and adopting it, I doubt the left/right aspect occurs to them.
  • Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    Ah, we're onto the Millwall defence. How sweet.
    Where would you rather be, if you're an insurgent party? Have 30% of the population open to voting for you, and 70% hostile? Or be met with indifference? Motivating people to go out and vote for you is the thing that matters.
    More than half of the population is sympathetic to UKIP's message on immigration, so i suggest UKIP's issue in expanding further is one of brand, style and tone rather than policy.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    I’ve voted at every GE since 1959 and I really don’t recall one where a) the Conservatives came across as so hard and unfeeling on the “poor”, deserving or undeserving, or b) the Labout Party had so many iuncosted and apparently unthought through policies (with the possible exception of 1983).
    Or, come to that, where the Liberals/LibDems were so quiet. Or possibly unreported.

    Or possibly moribund.
    Certainly appear to be locally, although it’s never been a strong area. Odd, considering there’s a LibDem held seat very close.
    It may be they are diverting all energies to the winnable neighbour. Although I am hearing anecdotally how they are finding it difficult to get leaflets delivered even in those areas. The loss of so many councillors has seriously hollowed them out.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    I’ve voted at every GE since 1959 and I really don’t recall one where a) the Conservatives came across as so hard and unfeeling on the “poor”, deserving or undeserving, or b) the Labout Party had so many iuncosted and apparently unthought through policies (with the possible exception of 1983).
    Or, come to that, where the Liberals/LibDems were so quiet. Or possibly unreported.

    Not sure about your a) I think you have forgotten Norman "if it isn't hurting it isn't working" Lamont, the man who made my lifelong Conservative voting father vote for Blair.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    I've only had the 1 piece of electoral guff through the letterbox. I'd still say this is a marginal, but I suppose some are more ferociously contested than others.
  • Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:



    Ah, we're onto the Millwall defence. How sweet.

    Where would you rather be, if you're an insurgent party? Have 30% of the population open to voting for you, and 70% hostile? Or be met with indifference? Motivating people to go out and vote for you is the thing that matters.
    Yes I understand that. If Cameron screws the pooch over the EU referendum, or come to that if we have five years of Miliband fannying around while the economy nosedives and the country suffocates under a new blanket of political correctness, I think the kippers will be comfortably in the 20's next election, especially if they have a nice set of second places this time around to embolden potential voters. Antifrank might need to consider emigrating ;)

    Personally I think this whole like/dislike measure is a load of tosh. Its going to be subject to rampant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_desirability_bias, I know plenty of people that are planning to vote kipper, but wouldn't tell their friends for fear or ridicule or ostracism, no chance they would tell the nice young lady on the telephone.
    I see, we're onto the next line of defence for kipper sympathisers: they didn't really mean it.

    For a party that claims it likes to challenge the consensus, UKIP seems very bad at dealing with uncomfortable truths itself.
  • There is also an issue for UKIP that even if they got 30% of the vote in a PR system, all the other mainstream parties would conspire to lock them out of office, particularly if they are seen to be tool toxic. That would result in them never influencing anything.

    A similar thing happens to new populist right-wing parties across Europe, the Swedish Democrats being just one example.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    Ah, we're onto the Millwall defence. How sweet.
    Where would you rather be, if you're an insurgent party? Have 30% of the population open to voting for you, and 70% hostile? Or be met with indifference? Motivating people to go out and vote for you is the thing that matters.
    More than half of the population is sympathetic to UKIP's message on immigration, so i suggest UKIP's issue in expanding further is one of brand, style and tone rather than policy.
    Under First Past the Post, committed minorities count for more than uncommitted majorities.

    Most people think that Labour under Ed Milliband is unfit for office. But, they might win office on a third of the vote. Most Scots are opposed to independence, but the SNP are about to sweep the board, against divided opponents.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    antifrank said:

    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:



    Ah, we're onto the Millwall defence. How sweet.

    Where would you rather be, if you're an insurgent party? Have 30% of the population open to voting for you, and 70% hostile? Or be met with indifference? Motivating people to go out and vote for you is the thing that matters.
    Yes I understand that. If Cameron screws the pooch over the EU referendum, or come to that if we have five years of Miliband fannying around while the economy nosedives and the country suffocates under a new blanket of political correctness, I think the kippers will be comfortably in the 20's next election, especially if they have a nice set of second places this time around to embolden potential voters. Antifrank might need to consider emigrating ;)

    Personally I think this whole like/dislike measure is a load of tosh. Its going to be subject to rampant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_desirability_bias, I know plenty of people that are planning to vote kipper, but wouldn't tell their friends for fear or ridicule or ostracism, no chance they would tell the nice young lady on the telephone.
    I see, we're onto the next line of defence for kipper sympathisers: they didn't really mean it.

    For a party that claims it likes to challenge the consensus, UKIP seems very bad at dealing with uncomfortable truths itself.
    In much the same way as say LDs on 6% of the VI telling us how they are still going to get 35 seats ?
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    Officials insist the 55-year-old chief executive is leaving Oxfordshire County Council for cost-cutting reasons. But there is anger from victims that the deal will allow Miss Simons to dodge any blame.

    Catastrophic failings by the police and social workers meant the abuse carried on for years. In a further development, the chief constable whose force will be lambasted in the same report has been promoted to a new £185,000 a year job.

    Sara Thornton will step down next month as head of Thames Valley Police – after eight years in charge – to lead the new National Police Chiefs Council.

    Like Miss Simons, the 52-year-old refused to resign two years ago despite the failings of her officers in the Oxford sex grooming case.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    I see Dan Hodges is mining the rich seam of Labour hyprocisy.

    We Tories know all about how toxic that can be. If you are going to preach from the moral high ground, then check it isn't also a patch of quicksand. When Back-to-Basics got shafted by Back-to-my-Place, that should have been a warning to all political parties: the voters really, really hate a hypocrite. I can barely begin to imagine how much further the Tories would have fallen in the 90's if John Major's affair with Edwina had become public knowledge. That would have given the media the sprinkles on the icing on the cake. Mockery. The front page of today's Sun shows Ed Miliband getting close to that.

    Labour's other trait it should worry about is the hubris that comes with being certain of its moral certainty. There are two ways at looking at a "Milly Dowler moment". Generally, the voters will take the one that most looks like a prat fall.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    Ah, we're onto the Millwall defence. How sweet.
    What an extraordinarily revealing thing to say: you think that the playground bully's old standby "nobody likes you [because you smell funny]" is an argument in itself, and requires a defence. That is simple conformist bigotry: today it's Ukip, fifty years ago it would have been darkies and pansies, and there are always an endless supply of groupthinkers like yourself who believe that the normal rules just this once don't apply, because God *really* hates Kippers or whatever.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I see Dan Hodges is mining the rich seam of Labour hyprocisy.

    Who could have possibly predicted that Ed's Back to Tax Basics campaign would bite Labour heavily in the ass?

    Oh, that's right, we did...
  • Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    [police chief snipped]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    Genuine question: what is this pension package? Is it a special, one-off payment of £423k into her pension scheme, or has the Mail simply totted up what is already in it? Does pb have any experts on making high-salary staff redundant?
  • Ishmael_X said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    Ah, we're onto the Millwall defence. How sweet.
    What an extraordinarily revealing thing to say: you think that the playground bully's old standby "nobody likes you [because you smell funny]" is an argument in itself, and requires a defence. That is simple conformist bigotry: today it's Ukip, fifty years ago it would have been darkies and pansies, and there are always an endless supply of groupthinkers like yourself who believe that the normal rules just this once don't apply, because God *really* hates Kippers or whatever.

    Those poor misunderstood kippers, spreading their message of universal love and understanding. How could anyone dislike them? I'm racking my brains and I can't think of a single unpleasant idea or action that any kipper has done to deserve such opprobrium.

    Get real.
  • Socialist Workers' Party releases election guidance:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31499189
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,628

    There is also an issue for UKIP that even if they got 30% of the vote in a PR system, all the other mainstream parties would conspire to lock them out of office, particularly if they are seen to be tool toxic. That would result in them never influencing anything.

    A similar thing happens to new populist right-wing parties across Europe, the Swedish Democrats being just one example.

    I don't think that's true at all.

    I think in the event of an election that was 30 UKIP, 30 Conservative, 30 Labour, 10 LibDem, then a Conservative-UKIP coalition would be almost certain.

    The issue is that junior coalition partners tend to get - and this is a technical term - "fucked". It happened the FPD in Germany, it's happening to the LibDems in the UK.

    And it's why the "Five Star" movement in Italy refuses to get involved in any coalition.

    The big question is how politics in the UK is to be organised if we have the leading party on (or below) 30% of the vote. Is barely more than one-in-four votes a mandate?
  • There is also an issue for UKIP that even if they got 30% of the vote in a PR system, all the other mainstream parties would conspire to lock them out of office, particularly if they are seen to be tool toxic. That would result in them never influencing anything.

    A similar thing happens to new populist right-wing parties across Europe, the Swedish Democrats being just one example.

    And FN in France, probably the nearest equivalent to UKIP.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712
    Indigo said:

    I’ve voted at every GE since 1959 and I really don’t recall one where a) the Conservatives came across as so hard and unfeeling on the “poor”, deserving or undeserving, or b) the Labout Party had so many iuncosted and apparently unthought through policies (with the possible exception of 1983).
    Or, come to that, where the Liberals/LibDems were so quiet. Or possibly unreported.

    Not sure about your a) I think you have forgotten Norman "if it isn't hurting it isn't working" Lamont, the man who made my lifelong Conservative voting father vote for Blair.
    Yup, I had. Good point. However, was he the first swallow of summer, harbinger of doom or something?

    IIRC, too, he lost what was expected to be safe seat at the next election!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: That C4 program on Ukip is a farce. It has the Lib Dems getting 19%...
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    [police chief snipped]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    Genuine question: what is this pension package? Is it a special, one-off payment of £423k into her pension scheme, or has the Mail simply totted up what is already in it? Does pb have any experts on making high-salary staff redundant?
    It all depends on their contract - but nowadays most corporate contracts contain clauses for incompetence etc . Apparently this was not the case here, but shows how vital it is that many senior Public Sector staff contracts need urgent revision - both for current and future employees.
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534

    Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    [police chief snipped]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    Genuine question: what is this pension package? Is it a special, one-off payment of £423k into her pension scheme, or has the Mail simply totted up what is already in it? Does pb have any experts on making high-salary staff redundant?
    Her pension pot all depends upon what type of pension she is on. If it's a final salary, the value is an estimate of the pot size to pay her pension.
    If it's a defined benefit pension, it will have a value. It's made up of the council and her contributions over the years and the performance of the investment. It us completely wrong to position it as a payment for departure.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,628

    There is also an issue for UKIP that even if they got 30% of the vote in a PR system, all the other mainstream parties would conspire to lock them out of office, particularly if they are seen to be tool toxic. That would result in them never influencing anything.

    A similar thing happens to new populist right-wing parties across Europe, the Swedish Democrats being just one example.

    And FN in France, probably the nearest equivalent to UKIP.
    The FN is not locked out of power. The issue is that the French electoral system puts a huge amount of power in the hands of the President, and (so far) the FN has scored poorly in run-offs against candidates from other parties. The FN does have a fairly reasonable record of local government in France, as well.

    This isn't other parties conspiring against the FN. It is the voters choosing other candidates in the second round of voting.

    But, hey, if it turns out to be Hollande vs Le Pen this time around, then the FN stands a definite chance.
  • Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    [police chief snipped]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    Genuine question: what is this pension package? Is it a special, one-off payment of £423k into her pension scheme, or has the Mail simply totted up what is already in it? Does pb have any experts on making high-salary staff redundant?
    I'm no expert, but as far as I know all these "pension packages worth X" that the media talks about in public sector are simply the nominal value of accrued final salary schemes i.e. in order to purchase a similar level of pension on the open market one would have to have £423K in the bank. Usually a scheme will provide 1/80 or perhaps 1/40 x the number of year's of service x final annual salary.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Ishmael_X said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    Ah, we're onto the Millwall defence. How sweet.
    What an extraordinarily revealing thing to say: you think that the playground bully's old standby "nobody likes you [because you smell funny]" is an argument in itself, and requires a defence. That is simple conformist bigotry: today it's Ukip, fifty years ago it would have been darkies and pansies, and there are always an endless supply of groupthinkers like yourself who believe that the normal rules just this once don't apply, because God *really* hates Kippers or whatever.

    Sorry, but UKIP playing the victim card like those victims down the ages, "darkies and pansies"?

    Before long, when they went outside, Yon Kippers were forced to wear a purple pound sign, sewn onto their coats....

    Funniest post on here in ages. Comedy gold.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2015

    Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    [police chief snipped]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    Genuine question: what is this pension package? Is it a special, one-off payment of £423k into her pension scheme, or has the Mail simply totted up what is already in it? Does pb have any experts on making high-salary staff redundant?
    I'm no expert, but as far as I know all these "pension packages worth X" that the media talks about in public sector are simply the nominal value of accrued final salary schemes i.e. in order to purchase a similar level of pension on the open market one would have to have £423K in the bank. Usually a scheme will provide 1/80 or perhaps 1/40 x the number of year's of service x final annual salary.
    Her stated final salary was £186,000, and she is retiring at 55 after probably 30 years of service, if we assume 80ths, which is doubtful, her final salary pension would be around £70,000 so her pension pot much be massively larger than £423,000 on the open market. The current best annuity rate for a 55 year old with RPI linked pension is 2.15% according to today's FT, so to get £70,000 per year her total pension pot would be around £3.2m. If it was 40ths that would be £140k p.a. and £6.4m pot.
  • Socialist Workers' Party releases election guidance:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31499189

    Amazing stuff. Did they ever hear about the importance of marriage?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good morning.

    In Richmond Park, where I live, I've only received 2 leaflets, one by the Tories and he other by the L/Dems, also a sort of truncated, badly printed L/Dem newspaper. The L/Dem leaflet was awful in colour and design; the tory one the usual adgit-prop.
  • Mr. Betting, bishops should stay out of electioneering. They were neither elected, nor are standing for election. Will we next have rabbis and imams urging their congregations to vote this way and that? It's a backwards state of affairs to have politics from the pulpit.
  • Mr. Betting, bishops should stay out of electioneering. They were neither elected, nor are standing for election. Will we next have rabbis and imams urging their congregations to vote this way and that? It's a backwards state of affairs to have politics from the pulpit.

    If religious leaders aren't there to give leadership to those who follow them, what are they there for?

    You don't have to agree with them.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2015

    Sorry, but UKIP playing the victim card like those victims down the ages, "darkies and pansies"?

    Before long, when they went outside, Yon Kippers were forced to wear a purple pound sign, sewn onto their coats....

    Possibly not the best day for Conservatives to follow that analogy.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2955220/Far-right-Anti-Jewish-rally-organiser-arrested-series-anti-Semitic-tweets-sent-Labour-MP-Luciana-Berger.html
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    You don't seem to understand how politics works.

    30% not objecting to a party without policies is woeful. Every single time you introduce a policy, that number goes down. At the moment UKIP have no policies, they can only lose potential.
  • Mr. Antifrank, moral leadership is not the same as electoral suggestions.

    You don't get to play the game without sticking to the rules that govern everyone else on the pitch. If the bishops want to campaign, then let them stand, let them be candidates, let them knock on doors.

    And if they're terribly concerned about poverty, let them pay their full taxes instead of enjoying the charitable tax breaks they currently indulge in. Charities have a duty [flouted often though it may be] to be politically neutral.

    Not to mention it paves the way for other religious leaders to start preaching politics. Do we want a precedent set of religious leaders involving themselves in politics? Identity politics is a vile thing, and the Archsocialist should either become a politician or keep out of the election.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,628
    Indigo said:

    Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    [police chief snipped]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    Genuine question: what is this pension package? Is it a special, one-off payment of £423k into her pension scheme, or has the Mail simply totted up what is already in it? Does pb have any experts on making high-salary staff redundant?
    I'm no expert, but as far as I know all these "pension packages worth X" that the media talks about in public sector are simply the nominal value of accrued final salary schemes i.e. in order to purchase a similar level of pension on the open market one would have to have £423K in the bank. Usually a scheme will provide 1/80 or perhaps 1/40 x the number of year's of service x final annual salary.
    Her stated final salary was £186,000, and she is retiring at 55 after probably 30 years of service, if we assume 80ths, which is doubtful, her final salary pension would be around £70,000 so her pension pot much be massively larger than £423,000 on the open market. The current best annuity rate for a 55 year old with RPI linked pension is 2.15% according to today's FT, so to get £70,000 per year her total pension pot would be around £3.2m. If it was 40ths that would be £140k p.a. and £6.4m pot.
    Was she at Oxfordshire County Council for 30 years? If she had multiple (council) employers, or spent any time outside the public sector, then she might not have 30 years worth of elgible service.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't know, I'm just trying to work out the source of the figures used.
  • Mr. Antifrank, moral leadership is not the same as electoral suggestions.

    You don't get to play the game without sticking to the rules that govern everyone else on the pitch. If the bishops want to campaign, then let them stand, let them be candidates, let them knock on doors.

    And if they're terribly concerned about poverty, let them pay their full taxes instead of enjoying the charitable tax breaks they currently indulge in. Charities have a duty [flouted often though it may be] to be politically neutral.

    Not to mention it paves the way for other religious leaders to start preaching politics. Do we want a precedent set of religious leaders involving themselves in politics? Identity politics is a vile thing, and the Archsocialist should either become a politician or keep out of the election.

    Personally I'm all in favour of disestablishing the church and removing tax breaks from religions unless they do wider good than just praying for our souls, and only to that extent.

    But I don't see anything objectionable about this letter. It doesn't tell followers who to vote for, but how to think about who to vote for from a religious perspective.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    DavidL said:

    Perhaps it is indicative of where SLAB stand but in Dundee West we have not had a political leaflet since last September and the referendum campaign. At the last election this was a safe Labour seat. Now I really wonder if they have given up.

    We did see SLAB in Dundee City centre a couple of weeks ago with a stall. No sign of Jim McGovern though although tbh it was a bit like that in the referendum too until the last couple of weeks. His failure to capitalise on a major local school controversy discussed on here recently is pretty indicative of a man heading into retirement as well.

    For all the noise from the SNP I do wonder if a bit of post referendum fatigue has set in. Nothing from them either and we have an SNP councillor in the village.

    If you're in a particularly rural area, your chance of being hit on the doorstep go down, it isn't just numbers then, it's also the logistics of transport etc. The SNP were at the forefront of telephone canvassing, still are as far as I'm aware, and tend to depend on that for rural areas. If you're Ex-Dir you may well not get hit at all.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    rcs1000 said:

    There is also an issue for UKIP that even if they got 30% of the vote in a PR system, all the other mainstream parties would conspire to lock them out of office, particularly if they are seen to be tool toxic. That would result in them never influencing anything.

    A similar thing happens to new populist right-wing parties across Europe, the Swedish Democrats being just one example.

    I don't think that's true at all.

    I think in the event of an election that was 30 UKIP, 30 Conservative, 30 Labour, 10 LibDem, then a Conservative-UKIP coalition would be almost certain.

    The issue is that junior coalition partners tend to get - and this is a technical term - "fucked". It happened the FPD in Germany, it's happening to the LibDems in the UK.

    And it's why the "Five Star" movement in Italy refuses to get involved in any coalition.

    The big question is how politics in the UK is to be organised if we have the leading party on (or below) 30% of the vote. Is barely more than one-in-four votes a mandate?
    I do not see how the LDs were effed. They had a deputy PM in charge of various committees and 4 other cabinet posts and they were the ones who diluted government policy. They were given a referendum which they lost and made a mess of their half baked HoL reform.
    Maybe they should have with 24% of the vote or maybe not with just 60 seats, but they have peddled their wares. And now they promote them as disingenuously as they can.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    [police chief snipped]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    Genuine question: what is this pension package? Is it a special, one-off payment of £423k into her pension scheme, or has the Mail simply totted up what is already in it? Does pb have any experts on making high-salary staff redundant?
    I'm no expert, but as far as I know all these "pension packages worth X" that the media talks about in public sector are simply the nominal value of accrued final salary schemes i.e. in order to purchase a similar level of pension on the open market one would have to have £423K in the bank. Usually a scheme will provide 1/80 or perhaps 1/40 x the number of year's of service x final annual salary.
    Her stated final salary was £186,000, and she is retiring at 55 after probably 30 years of service, if we assume 80ths, which is doubtful, her final salary pension would be around £70,000 so her pension pot much be massively larger than £423,000 on the open market. The current best annuity rate for a 55 year old with RPI linked pension is 2.15% according to today's FT, so to get £70,000 per year her total pension pot would be around £3.2m. If it was 40ths that would be £140k p.a. and £6.4m pot.
    Was she at Oxfordshire County Council for 30 years? If she had multiple (council) employers, or spent any time outside the public sector, then she might not have 30 years worth of elgible service.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't know, I'm just trying to work out the source of the figures used.
    I have no idea, I was hypothesising based on her seniority, to get to that level it doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose that most of her career had been working her way up the local government ladder. Even if you halved that figure it would still imply a £1.6/3.2m pot which is still 4-8x the number quoted in the article.
  • rcs1000 said:

    There is also an issue for UKIP that even if they got 30% of the vote in a PR system, all the other mainstream parties would conspire to lock them out of office, particularly if they are seen to be tool toxic. That would result in them never influencing anything.

    A similar thing happens to new populist right-wing parties across Europe, the Swedish Democrats being just one example.

    I don't think that's true at all.

    I think in the event of an election that was 30 UKIP, 30 Conservative, 30 Labour, 10 LibDem, then a Conservative-UKIP coalition would be almost certain.

    The issue is that junior coalition partners tend to get - and this is a technical term - "fucked". It happened the FPD in Germany, it's happening to the LibDems in the UK.

    And it's why the "Five Star" movement in Italy refuses to get involved in any coalition.

    The big question is how politics in the UK is to be organised if we have the leading party on (or below) 30% of the vote. Is barely more than one-in-four votes a mandate?
    No, we'd get a Con-Lab grand coalition, like in Germany.
  • Mr. Antifrank, from the BBC article I linked to:
    "It is expected to back the concept of a living wage and urge political parties to avoid scapegoating groups such as immigrants and those on benefits."

    Also:

    "The letter - the first of its kind to be issued by the Church - is expected to say that the case for the Trident nuclear deterrent needs to be re-examined and more EU integration is needed."

    It'd be more subtle for them to say people should vote for Abour-lay, not Onservative-cay. And UKIP-ay is the work of Satan, it would seem.

    Priests involving themselves in electioneering is backward.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Dair said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    You don't seem to understand how politics works.

    30% not objecting to a party without policies is woeful. Every single time you introduce a policy, that number goes down. At the moment UKIP have no policies, they can only lose potential.
    A potential 30% is pretty good under our electoral system. The maximum potential vote for Conservatives and Labour is probably only 40%.
  • On topic, the Labour majority in the seat I live in is 1,613. No leaflets from anyone yet. It's certainly a marginal but not *quite* as marginal as the more high-profile one next door.

    On which subject, I wonder whether the Balls tax/receipts issue might play personally for him. I've no idea if the Conservatives have any intention of using it negatively against him, never mind whether any other party will, but it's not just a distraction (at best) for Labour as a whole but also an setback for Balls personally. With a majority of 1,101 he doesn't have a great deal of space for upsetting his voters.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,628

    rcs1000 said:

    There is also an issue for UKIP that even if they got 30% of the vote in a PR system, all the other mainstream parties would conspire to lock them out of office, particularly if they are seen to be tool toxic. That would result in them never influencing anything.

    A similar thing happens to new populist right-wing parties across Europe, the Swedish Democrats being just one example.

    I don't think that's true at all.

    I think in the event of an election that was 30 UKIP, 30 Conservative, 30 Labour, 10 LibDem, then a Conservative-UKIP coalition would be almost certain.

    The issue is that junior coalition partners tend to get - and this is a technical term - "fucked". It happened the FPD in Germany, it's happening to the LibDems in the UK.

    And it's why the "Five Star" movement in Italy refuses to get involved in any coalition.

    The big question is how politics in the UK is to be organised if we have the leading party on (or below) 30% of the vote. Is barely more than one-in-four votes a mandate?
    I do not see how the LDs were effed. They had a deputy PM in charge of various committees and 4 other cabinet posts and they were the ones who diluted government policy. They were given a referendum which they lost and made a mess of their half baked HoL reform.
    Maybe they should have with 24% of the vote or maybe not with just 60 seats, but they have peddled their wares. And now they promote them as disingenuously as they can.
    I am not suggesting the Conservatives f***ed the LibDems, merely that junior coalition partners tend to suffer electorally. This is a pattern we've seen in Scotland, in Europe and in the UK.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    antifrank said:

    Mr. Antifrank, moral leadership is not the same as electoral suggestions.

    You don't get to play the game without sticking to the rules that govern everyone else on the pitch. If the bishops want to campaign, then let them stand, let them be candidates, let them knock on doors.

    And if they're terribly concerned about poverty, let them pay their full taxes instead of enjoying the charitable tax breaks they currently indulge in. Charities have a duty [flouted often though it may be] to be politically neutral.

    Not to mention it paves the way for other religious leaders to start preaching politics. Do we want a precedent set of religious leaders involving themselves in politics? Identity politics is a vile thing, and the Archsocialist should either become a politician or keep out of the election.

    Personally I'm all in favour of disestablishing the church and removing tax breaks from religions unless they do wider good than just praying for our souls, and only to that extent.

    But I don't see anything objectionable about this letter. It doesn't tell followers who to vote for, but how to think about who to vote for from a religious perspective.
    Antifrank,

    Religion is personal thing, I don't mind my vicar telling me about my mortal sins, but when it comes to the church talking/hinting to me about the way I might vote, they can jolly well feck off. its none of their business.

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Dair said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    You don't seem to understand how politics works.

    30% not objecting to a party without policies is woeful. Every single time you introduce a policy, that number goes down. At the moment UKIP have no policies, they can only lose potential.
    The kippers have been parading their policies for quite some time (especially here!) http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

    In any case as a party that wont get into government, people don't care what their policies are, they will never get to enact them, what people like I assume is their abrasive tone and the slight impression of burning torches and pitchforks they bring to the party. They are also to be fair the only party that doesn't flannel and prevaricate on immigration, and issue which at least half the electorate feel strongly about.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,628
    Indigo said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    [police chief snipped]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    Genuine question: what is this pension package? Is it a special, one-off payment of £423k into her pension scheme, or has the Mail simply totted up what is already in it? Does pb have any experts on making high-salary staff redundant?
    I'm no expert, but as far as I know all these "pension packages worth X" that the media talks about in public sector are simply the nominal value of accrued final salary schemes i.e. in order to purchase a similar level of pension on the open market one would have to have £423K in the bank. Usually a scheme will provide 1/80 or perhaps 1/40 x the number of year's of service x final annual salary.
    Her stated final salary was £186,000, and she is retiring at 55 after probably 30 years of service, if we assume 80ths, which is doubtful, her final salary pension would be around £70,000 so her pension pot much be massively larger than £423,000 on the open market. The current best annuity rate for a 55 year old with RPI linked pension is 2.15% according to today's FT, so to get £70,000 per year her total pension pot would be around £3.2m. If it was 40ths that would be £140k p.a. and £6.4m pot.
    Was she at Oxfordshire County Council for 30 years? If she had multiple (council) employers, or spent any time outside the public sector, then she might not have 30 years worth of elgible service.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't know, I'm just trying to work out the source of the figures used.
    I have no idea, I was hypothesising based on her seniority, to get to that level it doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose that most of her career had been working her way up the local government ladder. Even if you halved that figure it would still imply a £1.6/3.2m pot which is still 4-8x the number quoted in the article.
    Yes: but she might have been hired to head up the unit from Oxford City Council, or Shropshire, or wherever. So, we really don't have enough information to make a sensible judgement about the accuracy of the Daily Mail's number.

    Unless she's on LinkedIn, of course :-)
  • Mr. Antifrank, from the BBC article I linked to:
    "It is expected to back the concept of a living wage and urge political parties to avoid scapegoating groups such as immigrants and those on benefits."

    Also:

    "The letter - the first of its kind to be issued by the Church - is expected to say that the case for the Trident nuclear deterrent needs to be re-examined and more EU integration is needed."

    It'd be more subtle for them to say people should vote for Abour-lay, not Onservative-cay. And UKIP-ay is the work of Satan, it would seem.

    Priests involving themselves in electioneering is backward.

    Of those four positions mentioned, the only one which does not immediately seem to have a moral dimension is the bit about EU integration. But no doubt the bishops will explain themselves on that point also in their letter.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    antifrank said:

    Mr. Antifrank, moral leadership is not the same as electoral suggestions.

    You don't get to play the game without sticking to the rules that govern everyone else on the pitch. If the bishops want to campaign, then let them stand, let them be candidates, let them knock on doors.

    And if they're terribly concerned about poverty, let them pay their full taxes instead of enjoying the charitable tax breaks they currently indulge in. Charities have a duty [flouted often though it may be] to be politically neutral.

    Not to mention it paves the way for other religious leaders to start preaching politics. Do we want a precedent set of religious leaders involving themselves in politics? Identity politics is a vile thing, and the Archsocialist should either become a politician or keep out of the election.

    Personally I'm all in favour of disestablishing the church and removing tax breaks from religions unless they do wider good than just praying for our souls, and only to that extent.

    But I don't see anything objectionable about this letter. It doesn't tell followers who to vote for, but how to think about who to vote for from a religious perspective.
    Antifrank,

    Religion is personal thing, I don't mind my vicar telling me about my mortal sins, but when it comes to the church talking/hinting to me about the way I might vote, they can jolly well feck off. its none of their business.

    Ps for the avoidance of doubt, the church is full of lefties but their congregations are not so keen ;)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Just looking at yesterday's 4 polls I see the common thing is Labour down except in Ashcroft where it stood still and the Tories fell.

    And that after the Labour shills on here told us it was Labour's best week in years. I'd hate to see what their worst brings. Although, may not have to wait long for that....
    Have to say there is nothing for Tories to be crowing about , as said they are coming across very badly , they are fast approaching wanting everybody except the rich penalised. Not good for them and up against a bunch of numpties, Cameron really is useless.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Mr. Antifrank, from the BBC article I linked to:
    "It is expected to back the concept of a living wage and urge political parties to avoid scapegoating groups such as immigrants and those on benefits."

    Also:

    "The letter - the first of its kind to be issued by the Church - is expected to say that the case for the Trident nuclear deterrent needs to be re-examined and more EU integration is needed."

    It'd be more subtle for them to say people should vote for Abour-lay, not Onservative-cay. And UKIP-ay is the work of Satan, it would seem.

    Priests involving themselves in electioneering is backward.

    Not party political, in the sense that they'd want their parishioners to choose either Labour, the Greens, Respect, or some other left-winger. That's why I left the Church of England.

  • rcs1000 said:

    I don't think the Tories, or anyone else, has money to burn. The total budget for the conservatives 2015 election campaign will be roughly similar to what the Democrats would spend in - rather safe - new Jersey. On congressional races.

    Granted it is the Guardian but this suggests that the Tories have well over double the funding they could spend during the campaign period. If its to be believed they could fully fund two election campaigns and still have £13 million spare. Money to burn Ok perhaps not but not far off and that's not to say additional funding wouldn't be made available if they knew they could spend it.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/13/tories-david-cameron-buy-election-campaign-spending
    Worth considering when thinking about whether there'll be two elections in 2015. I imagine that the SNP aren't short of funds either at the moment given their surge in membership.

    That said, I'd expect the SNP to want to keep Labour in power in Westminster until 2016 at least, partly for reasons of readies but mainly so that they can more readily discredit Labour locally in Scotland based on what they're doing in Westminster. It's a long time since 2007 now.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    [police chief snipped]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    Genuine question: what is this pension package? Is it a special, one-off payment of £423k into her pension scheme, or has the Mail simply totted up what is already in it? Does pb have any experts on making high-salary staff redundant?
    I'm no expert, but as far as I know all these "pension packages worth X" that the media talks about in public sector are simply the nominal value of accrued final salary schemes i.e. in order to purchase a similar level of pension on the open market one would have to have £423K in the bank. Usually a scheme will provide 1/80 or perhaps 1/40 x the number of year's of service x final annual salary.
    Her stated final salary was £186,000, and she is retiring at 55 after probably 30 years of service, if we assume 80ths, which is doubtful, her final salary pension would be around £70,000 so her pension pot much be massively larger than £423,000 on the open market. The current best annuity rate for a 55 year old with RPI linked pension is 2.15% according to today's FT, so to get £70,000 per year her total pension pot would be around £3.2m. If it was 40ths that would be £140k p.a. and £6.4m pot.
    Was she at Oxfordshire County Council for 30 years? If she had multiple (council) employers, or spent any time outside the public sector, then she might not have 30 years worth of elgible service.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't know, I'm just trying to work out the source of the figures used.
    I have no idea, I was hypothesising based on her seniority, to get to that level it doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose that most of her career had been working her way up the local government ladder. Even if you halved that figure it would still imply a £1.6/3.2m pot which is still 4-8x the number quoted in the article.
    Yes: but she might have been hired to head up the unit from Oxford City Council, or Shropshire, or wherever. So, we really don't have enough information to make a sensible judgement about the accuracy of the Daily Mail's number.

    Unless she's on LinkedIn, of course :-)
    Are public sector pensions not portable between local government units ?
  • Mr. F, some might say the Church of England left you.
  • Sean_F said:

    Mr. Antifrank, from the BBC article I linked to:
    "It is expected to back the concept of a living wage and urge political parties to avoid scapegoating groups such as immigrants and those on benefits."

    Also:

    "The letter - the first of its kind to be issued by the Church - is expected to say that the case for the Trident nuclear deterrent needs to be re-examined and more EU integration is needed."

    It'd be more subtle for them to say people should vote for Abour-lay, not Onservative-cay. And UKIP-ay is the work of Satan, it would seem.

    Priests involving themselves in electioneering is backward.

    Not party political, in the sense that they'd want their parishioners to choose either Labour, the Greens, Respect, or some other left-winger. That's why I left the Church of England.

    There was a good article in The Spectator about a year ago written by a CofE vicar who was a Conservative.

    He wrote under a pseudonym, but was very clear that his fellow vicars and bishops considered him something of a pariah. He felt he had to keep it quiet.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    ...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    If she is leaving for cost cutting reasons it will be interesting to see how much her replacement is paid.
    In fact the Oxford Times says ''It could potentially save the county council the £217,640 it pays Ms Simons, including salary, pension contributions and bonuses.'' and that the role of chief exec is being scrapped.

    Irrespective of what her pension package is worth then if she is not taking early retirement it should surely not be paid until 67. And if she is taking early retirement what is the severance pay for? It looks as if with the job being made redundant she is getting redundancy pay.
    http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/archive/2015/01/31/11762848.Oxfordshire_County_Council_scrapping_its_chief_executive_role/
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Indigo said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    [police chief snipped]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    Genuine question: what is this pension package? Is it a special, one-off payment of £423k into her pension scheme, or has the Mail simply totted up what is already in it? Does pb have any experts on making high-salary staff redundant?
    I'm no expert, but as far as I know all these "pension packages worth X" that the media talks about in public sector are simply the nominal value of accrued final salary schemes i.e. in order to purchase a similar level of pension on the open market one would have to have £423K in the bank. Usually a scheme will provide 1/80 or perhaps 1/40 x the number of year's of service x final annual salary.
    Her stated final salary was £186,000, and she is retiring at 55 after probably 30 years of service, if we assume 80ths, which is doubtful, her final salary pension would be around £70,000 so her pension pot much be massively larger than £423,000 on the open market. The current best annuity rate for a 55 year old with RPI linked pension is 2.15% according to today's FT, so to get £70,000 per year her total pension pot would be around £3.2m. If it was 40ths that would be £140k p.a. and £6.4m pot.
    Was she at Oxfordshire County Council for 30 years? If she had multiple (council) employers, or spent any time outside the public sector, then she might not have 30 years worth of elgible service.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't know, I'm just trying to work out the source of the figures used.
    I have no idea, I was hypothesising based on her seniority, to get to that level it doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose that most of her career had been working her way up the local government ladder. Even if you halved that figure it would still imply a £1.6/3.2m pot which is still 4-8x the number quoted in the article.
    You only need a few thousand public sector workers on this pay level retiring each year to find your paying out £10s of Billions in buying annuities each year.

    At least the State Pension is effectively paid as a benefit, so it's a genuine ongoing cost. but these overpaid public sector staff are utterly destroying any fiscal hope.
  • I now live in a marginal. Been phone polled twice, been receiving some very personal targeted mail.

    Canvassed a few times.

    This is the Lib Dems most recent offering

    @SheffieldHallam: From the lib-dems in Sheffield Hallam today, came by Royal Mail post, addressed personally @MSmithsonPB http://t.co/KKuBu16FLc

    @SheffieldHallam: Overleaf, it opens out to this. No mention of Nick Clegg. Two Ed's featuring heavily @MSmithsonPB http://t.co/1QxCXTYwEE
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Sean_F said:

    Dair said:

    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I would have thought that leaflet will just encourage a lower turn out. Not exactly the most palatable of choices....

    I hope young children don't see it. With those two mugs glaring at them, it could frighten them.
    Remember, the average voter feels more hostile to UKIP than the average kipper feels towards David Cameron.
    Still tugging your turkey over that. I think people will be more concerned about Cameron wanting to put kids on serf wages if they are unemployed personally.
    Typical kipper, ignoring inconvenient facts in favour of idle speculation.
    No a realistic Kipper who recognises that UKIP is little more than a passing thought for the vast majority of voters at this election who believe it or not are not obsessed over UKIP's polling detail as clearly you are. Whether they are hostile or not is of little relevance now because they are not going to vote UKIP in May anyway. However there are 30% or so who do not have any particular problem with UKIP and if UKIP could get two thirds of their votes unlikely as that seems that would be a massive achievement for them and more than they could have ever hoped for even two years ago.

    So it doesn't really matter how much you bang on about it it doesn't matter a whole lot to UKIP today because they have more than enough potential voters to keep them busy. Now do be a good little obsessive and go and annoy somebody else because frankly such considerations are presently irrelevant (particularly as it was less than 10 years ago that the Tories faced similar issues and look how that has apparently changed according to that polling).
    You don't seem to understand how politics works.

    30% not objecting to a party without policies is woeful. Every single time you introduce a policy, that number goes down. At the moment UKIP have no policies, they can only lose potential.
    A potential 30% is pretty good under our electoral system. The maximum potential vote for Conservatives and Labour is probably only 40%.
    Yes their potential is 40% WITH A WHOLE SET OF POLICIES.

    UKIP have none. Each policy they publish reduces their 30% max vote. Every. Single. One.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    saddo said:

    Financier said:

    More Failure Richly Rewarded

    The (Oxfordshire) council boss whose staff failed scores of girls abused by a sex grooming gang is in line for a payoff worth nearly £600,000.

    Miss Simons is due to leave her £186,000-a-year role at the council in June with a £151,000 severance payment and a pension package worth £423,000.

    [police chief snipped]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956225/

    Genuine question: what is this pension package? Is it a special, one-off payment of £423k into her pension scheme, or has the Mail simply totted up what is already in it? Does pb have any experts on making high-salary staff redundant?
    Her pension pot all depends upon what type of pension she is on. If it's a final salary, the value is an estimate of the pot size to pay her pension.
    If it's a defined benefit pension, it will have a value. It's made up of the council and her contributions over the years and the performance of the investment. It us completely wrong to position it as a payment for departure.
    On final salary pensions , they normally calculate your pot as being 20 x your full pension amount plus any top up payments. You can take 25% of this value as a tax free lump sum and have a reduced pension. You cannot tell from what Mail say as to what reality is.
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