Seems UKIP up six points in an opinion poll is barely worth a mention by most posters.. says it all really
Those who have shorted UKIP just keep selling... no rebase.. average out... cross fingers
It's six points since January, thats hardly a news story.
UKIP up 6 Tories down 6 since Dave made his Awesome Speech about Europe and ramped up immigration.
Hardly unpredictable was it?
Tories down 17 points in 3 years in a sub section (over 65s) is hardly "Man Lands On Moon" is it?
The fact that the Tories have lost around a third of their pensioner vote since 2010 is quite a big polling story,and most pollsters are showing the same. The UKIP bounce has been charted over the last six months,this poll confirms it.
What the PB Tories need to take on board is Cameron's personal ratings with the over 65's -they are dire,and this poll shows the same as MORI.
Fair enough, I would say the relation between the two would be the story.
Every constituency should have leaflets showing the impact of UKiP on Tory hopes and the likely result of voting for UKiP with regards of letting the leftie thieves back in.
The Tory GE campaign should start the week after the Euros!
Knocking copy can work, but it is very tough to get right. Cameron appears to be an adequate PM, given the hand he picked up, but his track record as a politician is poor. Using up political capital on gay marriage was soft.
His line on an EU referendum is entirely implausible. To claim that he is going to try to re-negotiate Britain's deal with the EU, and then recommend we stay in, is daft. He has fatally undermined his own negotiating position. No barrow-boy would make that mistake.
If you don't try to renegotiate (and I am sceptical whether we will get anything meaningful) then the argument from the 'in' side is 'we can make it better'. The only way to defeat that argument is to test it. And may be I'm wrong, and we manage to renegotiate a fantastic deal.
Yes, Cameron's position makes sense in that way, but for one exception - he has not explained what it is that he wishes to renegotiate. He has not established his red lines.
That makes the pivot to later advocating withdrawal after an attempted renegotiation harder to achieve, and so it looks more as though he wishes to spin any concession as a meaningful renegotiation, however minor.
You never go into a negotiation saying what your 'red lines' are. Moreover, the EU would just take that as a starting point for a negotiation.
Ultimately, the PM is our agent, and will get the best deal he can. It's then up to the voters, as princpal, to decide whether to accept or reject the deal.
I don't think the PM should have implied that he will argue to stay in the EU regardless (not sure exactly what he said, but that was how it was reported), but otherwise he is approaching the negotiation in the right way.
This doesn't seem very professional of Ashcroft. Question 12 is - "The next general election is expected to be in May 2015. Though it is still very early to judge, given what you know about the coalition government's performance so far, and what you expect it to do in the future, and what the other parties are saying or doing, which of the following would you most like to see as the outcome of the next election?"
And yet the answers are summarised as "total expecting Labour in government" and "total expecting Conservatives in government". They weren't asked about expectation, they were asked about preference.
Sort-of on-topic: I had an interesting chat with some Tory activists, members and councillors a few days ago on the subject of UKIP and their performance in the local elections, specifically in relation to Sussex. From what I heard from councillors and those who'd been canvassing, there's no doubt that the gay marriage issue was a major driver in shifting votes to UKIP, at least in this area. One councillor in a very safe Tory area told me he had had a number of calls from lifelong Conservative voters who were not going to vote Tory this time because of gay marriage. (In his particular patch, UKIP screwed up the nomination papers so he didn't have a UKIP opponent: he asked one of those former Tory voters who was incensed by the gay marriage issue how he would vote, and got the reply 'Green', which seems rather odd.)
In addition, there was a strong feeling amongst the Conservative supporters I was talking to that the whole issue was an unnecessary own-goal. Even if they weren't particularly fussed about the issue themselves, they felt Cameron had screwed up by championing it.
I suspect that this issue may be behind the Ashcroft poll's finding of fall in Cameron's popularity compared with the party.
Two questions come to mind on this:
1) Will the effect of the gay marriage issue fade over the next couple of years?
2) Is the gay marriage issue a root cause of the dissatisfaction with Cameron, or a convenient hook on which to hang general dissatisfaction?
Will the effect of the gay marriage issue fade over the next couple of years?
Dave better pray it does. Because if it doesn't, ditching Dave would be a good way of ditching the issue. And if he continues to lag the party in the polls, he might actually be vulnerable.
Sort-of on-topic: I had an interesting chat with some Tory activists, members and councillors a few days ago on the subject of UKIP and their performance in the local elections, specifically in relation to Sussex. From what I heard, there's no doubt that the gay marriage issue was a major driver in shifting votes to UKIP, at least in this area. One councillor in a very safe Tory area told me he had had a number of calls from lifelong Conservative voters who were not going to vote Tory this time because of gay marriage. (In his particular patch, UKIP screwed up the nomination papers so he didn't have a UKIP opponent: he asked one of those former Tory voters who was incensed by the gay marriage issue how he would vote, and got the reply 'Green', which seems rather odd.)
In addition, there was a strong feeling amongst the Conservative supporters I was talking to that the whole issue was an unnecessary own-goal. Even if they weren't particularly fussed about the issue themselves, they felt Cameron had screwed up by championing it.
I suspect that this issue may be behind the Ashcroft poll's finding of fall in Cameron's popularity compared with the party.
Two questions come to mind on this:
1) Will the effect of the gay marriage issue fade over the next couple of years?
2) Is the gay marriage issue a root cause of the dissatisfaction with Cameron, or a convenient hook on which to hang general dissatisfaction?
the issue for blue non-voters and vote switchers is Cameron hasn't got his priorities right; he wastes his political capital on gimmicks. For his activists add in poor party management.
Cameron has been around a long time now. Eight years as LoO or PM. That's a long time these days. Popularity was bound to start running out. Also other pols will start to see time running out for them and start muttering behind the scenes.
Cameron also has a fundamental weakness. He didn't win outright.
I see Kevin Rudd has given the classic Heseltine 1990 statement that he 'does not see any circumstances' in which he would take the ALP leadership on a trip to Victoria. Coupled with a poll this week showing the ALP would lose over 30 seats and a statement from Bill Shorten, a senior minister and potential ALP leader, that Abbott would win a landslide at the moment, I think we can say Gillard is about as safe as a Turkey in a Bernard Matthews' factory! http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-07/rudd-says-julia-gillard-showing-strong-leadership/4739410
You can just see the excitable straight from university PPE graduate SPADS wetting themselves with delight when gay marriage got up and running.
What a way to de-toxify ourselves...squeak! squeak!
well yes idiotic to say the least, but then they're not alone. Labourites spent most of last year talking about fops and pasties instead of nailing Osborne's coffin shut on the economy, now they've left a wounded beast and the arguments are all on his side. Ed's no better than Dave when it comes to JCR debating japes.
Good morning. OT. Putting these figures through at electoral calculus leads to a Labour majority of 106, and this is another poll that shows UKIP getting zero seats.
We all know that UNS is now a busted flush with the percentages that UKIP are now getting so why keep repeating the inane zero seats for UKIP, mantra? I'm betting 20+ seats for UKIP if they keep the percentages around 18%, which seems to be the average of recent polling.
I understand your dismay - it's FPP at its worst. Yet UNS is NOT a busted flush. Indeed it did a remarkably good job as a rule of thumb last time, despite the PB Tories spending weeks in the run up to the election telling us all how it was, erm, a busted flush..
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
The difference between Rudd and Heseltine is that Rudd had the chance to challenge, everyone expected him to, and he did nothing, making his supporters look like idiots.
Sort-of on-topic: I had an interesting chat with some Tory activists, members and councillors a few days ago on the subject of UKIP and their performance in the local elections, specifically in relation to Sussex. From what I heard, there's no doubt that the gay marriage issue was a major driver in shifting votes to UKIP, at least in this area. One councillor in a very safe Tory area told me he had had a number of calls from lifelong Conservative voters who were not going to vote Tory this time because of gay marriage. (In his particular patch, UKIP screwed up the nomination papers so he didn't have a UKIP opponent: he asked one of those former Tory voters who was incensed by the gay marriage issue how he would vote, and got the reply 'Green', which seems rather odd.)
In addition, there was a strong feeling amongst the Conservative supporters I was talking to that the whole issue was an unnecessary own-goal. Even if they weren't particularly fussed about the issue themselves, they felt Cameron had screwed up by championing it.
I suspect that this issue may be behind the Ashcroft poll's finding of fall in Cameron's popularity compared with the party.
Two questions come to mind on this:
1) Will the effect of the gay marriage issue fade over the next couple of years?
2) Is the gay marriage issue a root cause of the dissatisfaction with Cameron, or a convenient hook on which to hang general dissatisfaction?
the issue for blue non-voters and vote switchers is Cameron hasn't got his priorities right; he wastes his political capital on gimmicks. For his activists add in poor party management.
Well letting people who love each marry is hardly a "gimmick". All credit to him - he's been brave on this issue and deserves a lot more credit for it than he is getting, particularly from his own "supporters".
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
Sort-of on-topic: I had an interesting chat with some Tory activists, members and councillors a few days ago on the subject of UKIP and their performance in the local elections, specifically in relation to Sussex. From what I heard, there's no doubt that the gay marriage issue was a major driver in shifting votes to UKIP, at least in this area. One councillor in a very safe Tory area told me he had had a number of calls from lifelong Conservative voters who were not going to vote Tory this time because of gay marriage. (In his particular patch, UKIP screwed up the nomination papers so he didn't have a UKIP opponent: he asked one of those former Tory voters who was incensed by the gay marriage issue how he would vote, and got the reply 'Green', which seems rather odd.)
In addition, there was a strong feeling amongst the Conservative supporters I was talking to that the whole issue was an unnecessary own-goal. Even if they weren't particularly fussed about the issue themselves, they felt Cameron had screwed up by championing it.
I suspect that this issue may be behind the Ashcroft poll's finding of fall in Cameron's popularity compared with the party.
Two questions come to mind on this:
1) Will the effect of the gay marriage issue fade over the next couple of years?
2) Is the gay marriage issue a root cause of the dissatisfaction with Cameron, or a convenient hook on which to hang general dissatisfaction?
the issue for blue non-voters and vote switchers is Cameron hasn't got his priorities right; he wastes his political capital on gimmicks. For his activists add in poor party management.
Well letting people who love each marry is hardly a "gimmick". All credit to him - he's been brave on this issue and deserves a lot more credit for it than he is getting, particularly from his own "supporters".
well let's see BAJ, there was no groundswell demand for GM, there were no party pressures on DC to push it. He did it for political reasons to make himself look good to certain sets of voters I'd call that political gimmickery. And then he screwed it up anyway.
In the end, I think he'll have to do a deal with the tories.
No, he won't.
His USP is I'm not lib-lab-con and that disappears very quickly should he contemplate any deal. Not exactly a protest vote if Farage is chums with Cammie, which will never happen anyway. They despise each other as do his activists. Why bother switching to the kippers in the first place if you were a tory and they do a deal with the tories?
Farage is a pressure group on tory backbenchers and grassroots right now and seems content with that. As long as he can try and shift the tories to BOO he won't worry too much about MPs just yet. A good thing too since he still hasn't got any.
I think that is a perfect summary of his position - at least I damn well hope it is because if he really thinks UKIP will be getting many MPs after the next election he is not living in the real world.
See this is why I have sympathy for Dave, when we have people like this in the party.
I can't believe I missed this the other day, talking about Baroness Knight and the gay marriage debate
She said “a higher authority” than any peer, had “already decided that people are not equal”, because “some people can see, others are blind”.
and
However, in the same interview she insisted that she is not “anti-homosexual”, just “pro-children”. Gays are “clever, very, very good at artistic things (and) very, very good at things like antiques,” she added.
On Ibiza: I do agree that it was bloody ridiculous to attack the PM for having the temerity to go on holiday.
And it was bloody ridiculous of Number Ten to release the happy Dave and Sam aren't they lovely photo's on the day Lee Rigby's parents were in Woolwich.
Blaming everyone else is all well and good but the PR numpties who reckon Dave playing family guy will get them out of any hole have to take some responsibility.
tim, I realise you don't take holidays, but the rest of humanity does. Blair and Brown also released holiday pics and then told the press to foxtrot oscar. Having stressed people with their fingers on nuclear buttons isn't a good idea.
Obama appears to have gone to the other extreme and now releases pictures of when he's at work, the rest of the time he's playing golf with his homies.
The difference between Rudd and Heseltine is that Rudd had the chance to challenge, everyone expected him to, and he did nothing, making his supporters look like idiots.
Erm, isn't the L in ALP a clue. Flocking sheep and all...?
As always, trust on the economy will be the crucial issue in 2015. Economically, they will all be using the same hymn sheet with a few gimmicks at the edges (the two Eds assume their moaning left-wingers have nowhere else to go, and they are right).
Socially, there's also a consensus in line with the BBC viewpoint, so that leaves a choice between who is best to administer the economic medicine.
Ed vs Dave.
UKIP don't fancy that, but they're unlikely to win enough seats under FPTP to matter.
Neil - Indeed. James Kelly - He did not have the numbers last time and said he would not challenge again unless he had the overwhelming backing of the caucus to draft him to the leadership role, the fact he has come out with this statement suggests panicking ALP MPs in marginals could now give him just the support he needs. Heseltine was also not a former PM
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
Its hardly the suffragettes (although David Lammy compared it to the abolition of slavery)
I've heard that just 0.2% of the population are in civil partnerships (pls correct if this is wrong)
Anti Gay marriage people are often told (by Stella Creasy for example) that if you don't like it, simply don't marry someone of the same sex.
So its nothing to do with them in other words, therefore it isn't a big societal change.
It affects almost nobody.
It was a political gimmick to detoxify his party by someone with form (Clause 28) and has been rumbled as such.
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't think, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
Yes, he's not bothered about gay marriage, as the following quote shows
People who call gay sex ‘disgusting’ will be allowed to stay in the UK Independence Party.
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
MPs last night backed the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, but Mr Farage said ministers were ‘picking a war with middle England’.
well all politicians love their stunts, Ed even went to the extent of getting married to make himself look vaguely normal.
But I still don't think any UK politician can beat Tony's five times a night bragadoccio. Boris has his moments but shagging Cherie and her gigolo hub still holds top spot. I suppose we should just be thankful they didn't record themselves and stick it on youtube.
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
I agree with you , Farage is simply an opportunist little sh1te with no principled belief about gay marriage one way or the other but will pronounce UKIP against it in order to get a few more votes .
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
isam, UKIP will have to be very careful about this issue because while it's a vote winner for them in the short term, it could be a millstone around their necks longer. Young people are overwhelmingly in favour of gay marriage, and they don't want to get stuck in a GOP situation. It probably makes sense politically for them to leave it as it is until after the 2015 election, and then say they have decided it's the law of the land and won't revoke it.
Like MarkSenior, however, I dislike using this sort of issue as a vote winner. What I find particularly bad about UKIP on this issue is that they sacked the head of their youth wing for supporting gay marriage, but they have taken no action against councilors who have made some pretty repugnant comments against gay people.
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
I agree with you , Farage is simply an opportunist little sh1te with no principled belief about gay marriage one way or the other but will pronounce UKIP against it in order to get a few more votes .
Farage is simply an opportunist little sh1te with no principled belief
I feel your anger Mark, that's traditional LD territory he's poaching on, just ask Peter Tatchell.
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
Yes, he's not bothered about gay marriage, as the following quote shows
People who call gay sex ‘disgusting’ will be allowed to stay in the UK Independence Party.
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
MPs last night backed the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, but Mr Farage said ministers were ‘picking a war with middle England’.
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
isam, UKIP will have to be very careful about this issue because while it's a vote winner for them in the short term, it could be a millstone around their necks longer. Young people are overwhelmingly in favour of gay marriage, and they don't want to get stuck in a GOP situation. It probably makes sense politically for them to leave it as it is until after the 2015 election, and then say they have decided it's the law of the land and won't revoke it.
Like MarkSenior, however, I dislike using this sort of issue as a vote winner. What I find particularly bad about UKIP on this issue is that they sacked the head of their youth wing for supporting gay marriage, but they have taken no action against councilors who have made some pretty repugnant comments against gay people.
Where is the like button when you surprisingly want to use it !!!!??
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
I agree with you , Farage is simply an opportunist little sh1te with no principled belief about gay marriage one way or the other but will pronounce UKIP against it in order to get a few more votes .
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
isam, UKIP will have to be very careful about this issue because while it's a vote winner for them in the short term, it could be a millstone around their necks longer. Young people are overwhelmingly in favour of gay marriage, and they don't want to get stuck in a GOP situation. It probably makes sense politically for them to leave it as it is until after the 2015 election, and then say they have decided it's the law of the land and won't revoke it.
Like MarkSenior, however, I dislike using this sort of issue as a vote winner. What I find particularly bad about UKIP on this issue is that they sacked the head of their youth wing for supporting gay marriage, but they have taken no action against councilors who have made some pretty repugnant comments against gay people.
for a minute there I thought you had a crush on Avery !
Of course I do, doesnt everyone?
Btw I've been in Liverpool for the last few days. I dont know why the place has such a bad reputation, I think it's fantastic - so much so I've even decided to stay on another night after all my work is done.
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
Yes, he's not bothered about gay marriage, as the following quote shows
People who call gay sex ‘disgusting’ will be allowed to stay in the UK Independence Party.
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
MPs last night backed the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, but Mr Farage said ministers were ‘picking a war with middle England’.
Is that your argument that Farage is personally very anti gay marriage?
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
There was a blog somewhere where someone posted some comments from politicians saying they were opposed to gay marriage at it would lead to all sort of bad things.
Except the quotes was from the 40s, 50s and 60s and instead of segregation and interracial marriage being the problem, he had replaced them with gay marriage.
If you're missing the fact that UKIP are like Strom Thurmond in 1948, then I'm delighted with that.
for a minute there I thought you had a crush on Avery !
Of course I do, doesnt everyone?
Btw I've been in Liverpool for the last few days. I dont know why the place has such a bad reputation, I think it's fantastic - so much so I've even decided to stay on another night after all my work is done.
Liverpool is great when you go via train.
When you go buy car, and come off the m62, it's where you see some of the places you think, so that's why Liverpool's got that reputation.
PS - If you're stopping over tonight, go to the Reflex bar in the town centre, it's like Poptastic, except with more cheesier 80s music, and there's a big poster of David Hasselhoff in there as well, which far too many people try and kiss or dry hump.
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
Yes, he's not bothered about gay marriage, as the following quote shows
People who call gay sex ‘disgusting’ will be allowed to stay in the UK Independence Party.
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
MPs last night backed the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, but Mr Farage said ministers were ‘picking a war with middle England’.
Is that your argument that Farage is personally very anti gay marriage?
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
There was a blog somewhere where someone posted some comments from politicians saying they were opposed to gay marriage at it would lead to all sort of bad things.
Except the quotes was from the 40s, 50s and 60s and instead of segregation and interracial marriage being the problem, he had replaced them with gay marriage.
If you're missing the fact that UKIP are like Strom Thurmond in 1948, then I'm delighted with that.
Very poor argument to compare difference of sexual preference with race.
No need to get all tribal and angry it doesn't become you.
Surely gay marriage is far more about the timing than the issue itself...
If you believe that then you probably also believe that the very people who now say that Civil Partnerships are great and meet all the gays' needs were actually in favour of Civil Partnerships at the time.
"Btw I've been in Liverpool for the last few days."
The Walker's great (especially if it starts raining). Never thought much of the Tate - it's full of pretentious trash. If a cleaner left his bucket there one day, they'd assume it was an exhibit.
The Dispensary serves a good pint, as do most of the pubs,
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
Yes, he's not bothered about gay marriage, as the following quote shows
People who call gay sex ‘disgusting’ will be allowed to stay in the UK Independence Party.
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
MPs last night backed the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, but Mr Farage said ministers were ‘picking a war with middle England’.
Is that your argument that Farage is personally very anti gay marriage?
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
There was a blog somewhere where someone posted some comments from politicians saying they were opposed to gay marriage at it would lead to all sort of bad things.
Except the quotes was from the 40s, 50s and 60s and instead of segregation and interracial marriage being the problem, he had replaced them with gay marriage.
If you're missing the fact that UKIP are like Strom Thurmond in 1948, then I'm delighted with that.
Very poor argument to compare difference of sexual preference with race.
No need to get all tribal and angry it doesn't become you.
Damn right I get angry when people try and deny gay couples equality.
Explain why in the 50s some politicians were railing against interracial marriages and couples is different to railing against gay couples marrying today is different?
Thanks .. but I've seen your shoes so I'm not sure I should take your advice on good nights out! But the bars in Liverpool are probably the best thing about it. So many great places to have a drink. (And I did arrive by train..)
for a minute there I thought you had a crush on Avery !
Of course I do, doesnt everyone?
Btw I've been in Liverpool for the last few days. I dont know why the place has such a bad reputation, I think it's fantastic - so much so I've even decided to stay on another night after all my work is done.
Thanks .. but I've seen your shoes so I'm not sure I should take your advice on good nights out! But the bars in Liverpool are probably the best thing about it. So many great places to have a drink. (And I did arrive by train..)
You'll love my new shoes, my wife has banned me from wearing them within 100 miles of her.
See, I was right about the train, and I'm right about Reflex, you'll love the The Reflex Bar.
I see tim is referring to the elderly as "coffin dodgers" now. How pleasant.
I don't get what anyone gains by using terms like that, we all must have elderly friends/relatives
Yes it was a deadly serious post. I genuinely think they smell of humbugs and Nigel Farage puts his tongue down their throats.
Is there anything worse than a sensitive Kipper.
What's wrong with not liking disgusting analogies?
I don't see 'sensitive' as an insult, but I think you should remember how you react to stereotyping of immigrants, gay people, whatever it may be before you throw out insults yourself, or at least remember that the other person may not be "deadly serious"
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
Yes, he's not bothered about gay marriage, as the following quote shows
People who call gay sex ‘disgusting’ will be allowed to stay in the UK Independence Party.
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
MPs last night backed the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, but Mr Farage said ministers were ‘picking a war with middle England’.
Is that your argument that Farage is personally very anti gay marriage?
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
There was a blog somewhere where someone posted some comments from politicians saying they were opposed to gay marriage at it would lead to all sort of bad things.
Except the quotes was from the 40s, 50s and 60s and instead of segregation and interracial marriage being the problem, he had replaced them with gay marriage.
If you're missing the fact that UKIP are like Strom Thurmond in 1948, then I'm delighted with that.
Very poor argument to compare difference of sexual preference with race.
No need to get all tribal and angry it doesn't become you.
Damn right I get angry when people try and deny gay couples equality.
Explain why in the 50s some politicians were railing against interracial marriages and couples is different to railing against gay couples marrying today is different?
Are you as angry about straight couples not having civil partnerships?
Or are some things more equal than others?
I would have thought that the politicians in the 50s that you refer to were against interracial marriages on the back of some misguided feeling of white superiority. There is no comparison with the position of anti gay marriage today.
I see tim is referring to the elderly as "coffin dodgers" now. How pleasant.
I don't get what anyone gains by using terms like that, we all must have elderly friends/relatives
Yes it was a deadly serious post. I genuinely think they smell of humbugs and Nigel Farage puts his tongue down their throats.
Is there anything worse than a sensitive Kipper.
What's wrong with not liking disgusting analogies?
I don't see 'sensitive' as an insult, but I think you should remember how you react to stereotyping of immigrants, gay people, whatever it may be before you throw out insults yourself, or at least remember that the other person may not be "deadly serious"
I thin k I've worked out who is deadly serious about immigrants on here, it's not difficult.
Well perhaps you have created an image for yourself as the other side of the coin? The UAF to the EDL? The SWP to the BNP?
Wouldn't you rather be the bigger man and leave the disgusting insults etc to the racist homophobes?
for a minute there I thought you had a crush on Avery !
Of course I do, doesnt everyone?
Btw I've been in Liverpool for the last few days. I dont know why the place has such a bad reputation, I think it's fantastic - so much so I've even decided to stay on another night after all my work is done.
A historian I had dinner with last night (we were debating regional development) was arguing that it should really be thought of as part of Ireland rather than England when you look at developing ex-London economic hubs
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
Hmmm, while your second point has validity, I doubt it would be at current levels if DC had basic party management skills.
The other thing is, I think Cameron didn't expect any other party to start being anti-gay marriage like UKIP have been.
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
"Basing a policy on denying gays equal rights"?
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
The Tory manifesto of 2010 was talking about it.
To be fair, although this is pure guesswork, I wouldn't have thought Farage is personally that bothered either way about gay marriage. It is politically wise for him to be vaguely against it while UKIP support is growing,... old fashioned values and all that. But I don't hink, correct me if Im wrong, he has ever been explicitly anti gay marriage... just says that Cameron considers issues such as gay marriage more important that Britain being able to choose who comes in/ border control etc
Yes, he's not bothered about gay marriage, as the following quote shows
People who call gay sex ‘disgusting’ will be allowed to stay in the UK Independence Party.
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
MPs last night backed the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, but Mr Farage said ministers were ‘picking a war with middle England’.
Is that your argument that Farage is personally very anti gay marriage?
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
There was a blog somewhere where someone posted some comments from politicians saying they were opposed to gay marriage at it would lead to all sort of bad things.
Except the quotes was from the 40s, 50s and 60s and instead of segregation and interracial marriage being the problem, he had replaced them with gay marriage.
If you're missing the fact that UKIP are like Strom Thurmond in 1948, then I'm delighted with that.
Part of the Conservatives' problem with the gay marriage policy is the sense that none of the senior figures care about it one way or the other. They merely see it as way to immunise themselves in the long term against 'nasty party' toxification. Being able to say "it was a Conservative government which legalised gay marriage!" will no doubt be effective, but it's very cynical.
Paul Elliot was the victim of internal FA politics. Not lefties.
Paul Elliott was not a victim of any kind. He is a fool who was pious and demanded zero tolerance when he heard racist language from some people, but used it himself when he lost his temper.
He knew exactly what he meant when he abused Richard Rufus and that's the point.
for a minute there I thought you had a crush on Avery !
Of course I do, doesnt everyone?
Btw I've been in Liverpool for the last few days. I dont know why the place has such a bad reputation, I think it's fantastic - so much so I've even decided to stay on another night after all my work is done.
A historian I had dinner with last night (we were debating regional development) was arguing that it should really be thought of as part of Ireland rather than England when you look at developing ex-London economic hubs
I assume you put him right and pointed out Ireland is off the east coast. A man you met on the Gloucestershire/Durham border told you that.
Comments
Ultimately, the PM is our agent, and will get the best deal he can. It's then up to the voters, as princpal, to decide whether to accept or reject the deal.
I don't think the PM should have implied that he will argue to stay in the EU regardless (not sure exactly what he said, but that was how it was reported), but otherwise he is approaching the negotiation in the right way.
And yet the answers are summarised as "total expecting Labour in government" and "total expecting Conservatives in government". They weren't asked about expectation, they were asked about preference.
In addition, there was a strong feeling amongst the Conservative supporters I was talking to that the whole issue was an unnecessary own-goal. Even if they weren't particularly fussed about the issue themselves, they felt Cameron had screwed up by championing it.
I suspect that this issue may be behind the Ashcroft poll's finding of fall in Cameron's popularity compared with the party.
Two questions come to mind on this:
1) Will the effect of the gay marriage issue fade over the next couple of years?
2) Is the gay marriage issue a root cause of the dissatisfaction with Cameron, or a convenient hook on which to hang general dissatisfaction?
I suspect The Sun and Telegraph's disgraceful Ibiza hatchet job also explains some of the fall in Cameron's personal ratings.
BTW, I'm wondering who carried out this poll for Lord Ashcroft. Couldn't see it in the data tables?
Dave better pray it does. Because if it doesn't, ditching Dave would be a good way of ditching the issue. And if he continues to lag the party in the polls, he might actually be vulnerable.
the issue for blue non-voters and vote switchers is Cameron hasn't got his priorities right; he wastes his political capital on gimmicks. For his activists add in poor party management.
Cameron also has a fundamental weakness. He didn't win outright.
You can just see the excitable straight from university PPE graduate SPADS wetting themselves with delight when gay marriage got up and running.
What a way to de-toxify ourselves...squeak! squeak!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-07/rudd-says-julia-gillard-showing-strong-leadership/4739410
You gotta love the ALP - please go for Rudd and have him win the GE, that would be too delicious for words.
They are probably reflecting on Wilde's quip that no good deed goes unpunished.
I'd expect gay marriage to fade for a while, then come back in 12-18 months when the first set of gay marriages start happening, and there's debates and aggro and legal cases over trying to force religious organisations to marry gays
Second point
If it wasn't gay marriage, it would be something else.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/liam-fox-and-andrew-mitchell-set-for-comeback-as-david-cameron-plans-double-cabinet-reshuffle-8649370.html
You have to give UKIP a big round of applause for basing a policy on denying gays equal rights.
Against idea/less likely to vote for party that supports (2010)
OA: 15
Con: 11 (18)
Lab: 9 (10)
LibD: 11 (14)
UKIP: 35 (na)
Con voters not majorly fussed by gay marriage.....
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/State-of-the-parties-data-tables-Online.pdf
I can't believe I missed this the other day, talking about Baroness Knight and the gay marriage debate
She said “a higher authority” than any peer, had “already decided that people are not equal”, because “some people can see, others are blind”.
and
However, in the same interview she insisted that she is not “anti-homosexual”, just “pro-children”. Gays are “clever, very, very good at artistic things (and) very, very good at things like antiques,” she added.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/06/03/baroness-knight-parliament-cant-help-blind-people-see-so-cant-help-artistic-gays-get-married/
Obama appears to have gone to the other extreme and now releases pictures of when he's at work, the rest of the time he's playing golf with his homies.
As always, trust on the economy will be the crucial issue in 2015. Economically, they will all be using the same hymn sheet with a few gimmicks at the edges (the two Eds assume their moaning left-wingers have nowhere else to go, and they are right).
Socially, there's also a consensus in line with the BBC viewpoint, so that leaves a choice between who is best to administer the economic medicine.
Ed vs Dave.
UKIP don't fancy that, but they're unlikely to win enough seats under FPTP to matter.
Forgive me if I yawn now.
Bilderberg have published their guest list online. Guess they can now add David Cameron's name: http://polho.me/11wI818 #transparency
Who was even talking about the possibility of gay marriage in 2010?
Its hardly the suffragettes (although David Lammy compared it to the abolition of slavery)
I've heard that just 0.2% of the population are in civil partnerships (pls correct if this is wrong)
Anti Gay marriage people are often told (by Stella Creasy for example) that if you don't like it, simply don't marry someone of the same sex.
So its nothing to do with them in other words, therefore it isn't a big societal change.
It affects almost nobody.
It was a political gimmick to detoxify his party by someone with form (Clause 28) and has been rumbled as such.
People who call gay sex ‘disgusting’ will be allowed to stay in the UK Independence Party.
Nigel Farage defended party members with ‘old-fashioned’ views about homosexuality, as he warned that with the government passing same-sex weddings ‘nobody knows where it will end up’.
MPs last night backed the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, but Mr Farage said ministers were ‘picking a war with middle England’.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328955/Nigel-Farage-refuses-kick-old-fashioned-UKIP-members-say-gay-sex-disgusting.html#ixzz2VWxjcbv8
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
But I still don't think any UK politician can beat Tony's five times a night bragadoccio. Boris has his moments but shagging Cherie and her gigolo hub still holds top spot. I suppose we should just be thankful they didn't record themselves and stick it on youtube.
"This was the week Labour looked to show it could be trusted to control the welfare bill, with speeches by both Ed Miliband and Ed Balls.
But one aspect of what Ed Balls called "iron discipline" has already run into trouble within the party.
The shadow chancellor floated the idea of regional caps on benefits."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22813874
If you're trying to put out a house fire, the last thing you need is someone suggesting painting the windows while you're about it.
Like MarkSenior, however, I dislike using this sort of issue as a vote winner. What I find particularly bad about UKIP on this issue is that they sacked the head of their youth wing for supporting gay marriage, but they have taken no action against councilors who have made some pretty repugnant comments against gay people.
I feel your anger Mark, that's traditional LD territory he's poaching on, just ask Peter Tatchell.
I'd have thought that if senior politicians don't provide the media with photos of themselves doing stuff, the papers will try to get their own.
Is that your argument that Farage is personally very anti gay marriage?
Btw I've been in Liverpool for the last few days. I dont know why the place has such a bad reputation, I think it's fantastic - so much so I've even decided to stay on another night after all my work is done.
There was a blog somewhere where someone posted some comments from politicians saying they were opposed to gay marriage at it would lead to all sort of bad things.
Except the quotes was from the 40s, 50s and 60s and instead of segregation and interracial marriage being the problem, he had replaced them with gay marriage.
If you're missing the fact that UKIP are like Strom Thurmond in 1948, then I'm delighted with that.
When you go buy car, and come off the m62, it's where you see some of the places you think, so that's why Liverpool's got that reputation.
PS - If you're stopping over tonight, go to the Reflex bar in the town centre, it's like Poptastic, except with more cheesier 80s music, and there's a big poster of David Hasselhoff in there as well, which far too many people try and kiss or dry hump.
No need to get all tribal and angry it doesn't become you.
"Btw I've been in Liverpool for the last few days."
The Walker's great (especially if it starts raining). Never thought much of the Tate - it's full of pretentious trash. If a cleaner left his bucket there one day, they'd assume it was an exhibit.
The Dispensary serves a good pint, as do most of the pubs,
Explain why in the 50s some politicians were railing against interracial marriages and couples is different to railing against gay couples marrying today is different?
Thanks .. but I've seen your shoes so I'm not sure I should take your advice on good nights out! But the bars in Liverpool are probably the best thing about it. So many great places to have a drink. (And I did arrive by train..)
"Who has the more annoying online presence/following, The Cybernats or The Kippers"
See, I was right about the train, and I'm right about Reflex, you'll love the The Reflex Bar.
I don't see 'sensitive' as an insult, but I think you should remember how you react to stereotyping of immigrants, gay people, whatever it may be before you throw out insults yourself, or at least remember that the other person may not be "deadly serious"
I am tim.
Or are some things more equal than others?
I would have thought that the politicians in the 50s that you refer to were against interracial marriages on the back of some misguided feeling of white superiority. There is no comparison with the position of anti gay marriage today.
Wouldn't you rather be the bigger man and leave the disgusting insults etc to the racist homophobes?
Of course I'm not you - I'm not stupid enough to have a 100% losing betting record with myself
But we do have something in common. We both voted Green in 2009. Only I didnt regret it afterwards!
See Paul Elliott for details
He knew exactly what he meant when he abused Richard Rufus and that's the point.
If this is true, he is worse than I thought...
http://oldco.coplandroad.org/444641#!