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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Cracking New Statesman piece by Matthew Engel on betting &

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited January 2015 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Cracking New Statesman piece by Matthew Engel on betting & politics

“…The original purpose of both sides – trying to make a profit on the transaction – is certainly not absent. Indeed, in recent years it has become more central. At the heart of this phenomenon is a new class somewhat different from the blokes who hang round the betting shops.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    A wonkish first?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015
    WTF are the Tories (in the person of Jane Ellison) doing manufacturing splits for no good reason with the plain packaging nonsense. Its illiberal (no surprise there), promotes smuggling of untaxed cigarettes and has been shown to cause a drop in cigarette prices with the commensurate increase in consumption, and generally doesn't have any evidence to recommend it.... and it causes a revolt of 100 MPs three months before the General Election, apart from that its a great idea
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015
    After his pronouncement in The Lords yesterday I think Tom King should think about spending more time with his garden.

    http://order-order.com/2015/01/27/fmr-def-sec-isis-gains-entirely-due-to-whatsapp-or-snapchat/
    It includes the use of things that not all your Lordships—that certainly includes me—are masters of. I am not a tweeter. We have Facebook and Twitter. Somebody tried to explain WhatsApp to me; somebody else tried to explain Snapchat. I do not know about them, but it is absolutely clear that the terrorists and jihadists do. The understanding is that part of the reason for ISIL’s amazing advance across Syria and into Iraq was that their communications were so good and the way they kept together was entirely due to one or other of the last two systems that I mentioned, which they handled with great intelligence.”
    Entirely ?! Or neither. So let me get this right, its a messaging system he doesnt understand, but has been told they cant crack, and they are sure its causing all the problems, alternatively it could be full of gossip and selfies and the real messages are passed by any one of several thousand ways to send secure messages including, inter alia, couriers and getting on a plane and going to talk to someone.

    Perhaps Baroness Trumpington was right in her response to him last year http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/14/article-2061490-0ECC987600000578-649_634x398.jpg
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Engel noted the 50/1 Smithson bet on Obama. It's the first I've heard of it.

    Personally I think it's a complete myth derived by the lizard people of Bedford in a cruel and unscrupulous attempt to hype the share price of the South Midlands Hair Restoratives PLC.
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    Indigo said:

    After his pronouncement in The Lords yesterday I think Tom King should think about spending more time with his garden.

    http://order-order.com/2015/01/27/fmr-def-sec-isis-gains-entirely-due-to-whatsapp-or-snapchat/

    It includes the use of things that not all your Lordships—that certainly includes me—are masters of. I am not a tweeter. We have Facebook and Twitter. Somebody tried to explain WhatsApp to me; somebody else tried to explain Snapchat. I do not know about them, but it is absolutely clear that the terrorists and jihadists do. The understanding is that part of the reason for ISIL’s amazing advance across Syria and into Iraq was that their communications were so good and the way they kept together was entirely due to one or other of the last two systems that I mentioned, which they handled with great intelligence.”
    Entirely ?! Or neither. So let me get this right, its a messaging system he doesnt understand, but has been told they cant crack, and they are sure its causing all the problems, alternatively it could be full of gossip and selfies and the real messages are passed by any one of several thousand ways to send secure messages including, inter alia, couriers and getting on a plane and going to talk to someone.


    Reminds me somewhat of this classic:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VgwxKW0J6I
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Indigo said:

    WTF are the Tories (in the person of Jane Ellison) doing manufacturing splits for no good reason with the plain packaging nonsense. Its illiberal (no surprise there), promotes smuggling of untaxed cigarettes and has been shown to cause a drop in cigarette prices with the commensurate increase in consumption, and generally doesn't have any evidence to recommend it.... and it causes a revolt of 100 MPs three months before the General Election, apart from that its a great idea

    I've seen comments from a handful of Tory MPs supportive of this measure on Facebook. They think they're doing the right thing.
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited January 2015
    On the subject of newspaper articles it's noticeable, to me at least, how the papers are firming up for the Conservatives. The biggest surprise is today's Daily Express. It's a paper I have marked as coming out UKIP on May 7th but you wouldn't think so from today's edition.

    I'm speculating on a number of reasons for the pro-Tory mood: the horror of Ed Miliband, distaste for Alex Salmond and the idea he might control power, desire to continue the economic platform and the mansion tax which would hit many of those near the top of the print media industry. It probably really comes down to the fact that Labour are a shambles and would be a disaster. Is there anyone left here on pb.com that thinks otherwise?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015

    I'm speculating on a number of reasons for the pro-Tory mood: the horror of Ed Miliband, distaste for Alex Salmond and the idea he might control power, desire to continue the economic platform and the mansion tax which would hit many of those near the top of the print media industry. It probably really comes down to the fact that Labour are a shambles and would be a disaster. Is there anyone left here on pb.com that thinks otherwise?

    I think its simpler than that, a Labour government means a full implementation of the Leveson Report, and beer and sandwiches at No 10 for Hacked Off.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Tempting to sell Labour @ 280 on the spreads this morning. Also attracted by Ladbrokes odds on the 251-275 Labour seat band.

    Hmm.
  • Mike, Could you include the link please?
  • On the subject of newspaper articles it's noticeable, to me at least, how the papers are firming up for the Conservatives. The biggest surprise is today's Daily Express. It's a paper I have marked as coming out UKIP on May 7th but you wouldn't think so from today's edition.

    I'm speculating on a number of reasons for the pro-Tory mood: the horror of Ed Miliband, distaste for Alex Salmond and the idea he might control power, desire to continue the economic platform and the mansion tax which would hit many of those near the top of the print media industry. It probably really comes down to the fact that Labour are a shambles and would be a disaster. Is there anyone left here on pb.com that thinks otherwise?

    Con maj nailed on, then.

    Alternatively, It's noticeable, to me at least, how the public are firming up for none of the major political parties. Both the Tories and Labour on around a third of the vote. Hardly a ringing endorsement of either of 'em.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,711
    Indigo said:

    I'm speculating on a number of reasons for the pro-Tory mood: the horror of Ed Miliband, distaste for Alex Salmond and the idea he might control power, desire to continue the economic platform and the mansion tax which would hit many of those near the top of the print media industry. It probably really comes down to the fact that Labour are a shambles and would be a disaster. Is there anyone left here on pb.com that thinks otherwise?

    I think its simpler than that, a Labour government means a full implementation of the Leveson Report, and beer and sandwiches at No 10 for Hacked Off.
    Probably a combination of that and the mansion tax to be fair.

    Incidentally, when we have plain .... well, they won’t really be, will they ..... packets for cigarettes, won’t they be easier to spot, and, if discovered in a suspects pockets, lead to further inquiries by Inspector Knacker?
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited January 2015

    Tempting to sell Labour @ 280 on the spreads this morning. Also attracted by Ladbrokes odds on the 251-275 Labour seat band.

    Hmm.

    I'm starting to make my big betting moves over the next week. They won't surprise you ;)

    I agree with you about the Labour seat band. I also like the 9/2 Conservative majority.

    9/2 on the LibDems in the 11-20 seat band also looks very tempting to me.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    @jameschappers: EXC NHS satisfaction at second highest ever level, with 11-point increase among Labour voters #GE2015 http://t.co/qGMJn4PM8w
  • I'm a mug punter cast amongst a sea of anoraks.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It would be refreshing if just once someone could write an article like this and refer to the site posters' barely concealed sexual magnetism.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I'm a mug punter cast amongst a sea of anoraks.

    Shadsy can count on me to keep him in beer.

    I win some and lose some. I did well on the indyref by following the McARSE, not so well on by-elections. May is going to be the big one when some half forgotten bets finally get settled one way or another.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    antifrank said:

    It would be refreshing if just once someone could write an article like this and refer to the site posters' barely concealed sexual magnetism.

    Embrace the anorak! Nothing beats a night in looking at spreadsheets to spot anomalies. Nearly as much fun as railway timetables.
  • Last night we had Burnham's strop and bull, a tory lead maintained and even a spot of red on red.

    When the going get's tough....

    Tom Newton Dunn‏@tnewtondunn·7 hrs7 hours ago
    100 days went well then; RT @johnprescott: I see those Tory collaborators Milburn & Hutton are attacking Labour's brilliant NHS plan...


    James Chapman (Mail) retweeted
    John Woodcock‏@JWoodcockMP·7 hrs7 hours ago
    @johnprescott what a shabby thing to say
  • I'm a mug punter cast amongst a sea of anoraks.

    Shadsy can count on me to keep him in beer.

    I win some and lose some. I did well on the indyref by following the McARSE, not so well on by-elections. May is going to be the big one when some half forgotten bets finally get settled one way or another.
    Same here - I'm looking forward to working around all the betting company websites rying to work out if I've got an account and then if I have, what my log in details are, to then see if I bet anything with them.... for sure I've got Betfair, Lads and Hills but I think there's others out there for the odd contra-ukip specific constituency bet.... not to mention the money from ISAM to collect as well.....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tnewtondunn: What our graphic artists think "a pale imitation" of Neil Kinnock might look like; http://t.co/8F1ylmqnbB http://t.co/aGSCMa5kIr
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited January 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: What our graphic artists think "a pale imitation" of Neil Kinnock might look like; http://t.co/8F1ylmqnbB http://t.co/aGSCMa5kIr

    Uncanny. I was wondering yesterday if my friends at The Sun might repeat the Kinnock lightbulb ;)

    EdM is toast.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited January 2015
    As Labours positioning on the NHS descends into total chaos and Farce ( Daily Telegraph) the financial Times reports "Britain's economy has grown at its fastest rate since the 2008 financial crisis" and Labours election plans already start to crumble as the Tories trends towards leads increase...... There are still 98 days to go, several debates and 3 weeks on the hustings .........and Burnham not guaranteed a cabinet position even if they did win?

    At this rate Labour will be sub 25

    POEMWAS.
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited January 2015
    Moses_ said:

    As Labours positioning on the NHS descends into total chaos and Farce ( Daily Telegraph) the financial Times reports "Britain's economy has grown at its fastest rate since the 2008 financial crisis" and Labours election plans already start to crumble....... There are still 98 days to go, several debates and 3 weeks on the hustings and Burnham not guaranteed a cabinet position even if they did win?

    At this rate Labour will be sub 25

    POEMWAS.


    Agreed. And an election Budget still to come. That alone will most likely add a minimum 1-2% to the Conservative share.
  • antifrank said:

    It would be refreshing if just once someone could write an article like this and refer to the site posters' barely concealed sexual magnetism.

    The photos of PB gatherings are a somewhat hefty obstacle to such an hypothesis.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,567
    Great article and very satisfying for Mike personally - well-deserved. I also appreciated this paragraph:

    "Most of us would be terrified by the notion of subjecting our career and livelihood to continual monstering by the press and Twittersphere, interspersed with periodic revalidation by public whim."

    Indigo said:

    WTF are the Tories (in the person of Jane Ellison) doing manufacturing splits for no good reason with the plain packaging nonsense.

    I've seen comments from a handful of Tory MPs supportive of this measure on Facebook. They think they're doing the right thing.
    Indeed. Anna Soubry and I are both enthusiastic supporters. On a range of issues (mostly social), we do actually agree.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: Amazing A Burnham interview on Newsnight last night. Concedes Labour has no limit on % of private NHS provision. http://t.co/GfhAG7e7LD
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Good morning, everyone.

    That's a rather nice write-up of the site. Perhaps I should check the full article, to see whether the important matters of F1 and classical history are mentioned.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    On the subject of newspaper articles it's noticeable, to me at least, how the papers are firming up for the Conservatives. The biggest surprise is today's Daily Express. It's a paper I have marked as coming out UKIP on May 7th but you wouldn't think so from today's edition.

    I'm speculating on a number of reasons for the pro-Tory mood: the horror of Ed Miliband, distaste for Alex Salmond and the idea he might control power, desire to continue the economic platform and the mansion tax which would hit many of those near the top of the print media industry. It probably really comes down to the fact that Labour are a shambles and would be a disaster. Is there anyone left here on pb.com that thinks otherwise?

    Any other reasons you can think of for historically Tory papers being Tory papers? Like, they are Tory papers? Next you'll be casting around for explanations of CCHQ's ill-disguised enthusiasm for the blue team.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    The photo at the top of the thread is from 1964, btw.

    25/1 for NOM. How times (and the electoral system) have changed...!
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RodCrosby said:
    I have been to both Auschwitz and Dachau, about 30 years ago. Both were disturbing - Dachau because of its intimacy and compactness, being in the middle of an artists colony, and Auschwitz for its sheer scale (Birkenau) and its banality in the original camp, which was originally a Polish army cavalry camp.

    The one absurd thing that struck me in all of them was that there are no birds singing.

    You could still feel the evil.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Trident off to Wales?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2929226/Trident-quit-Scotland-Wales-Secret-plan-nuclear-subs-triggered-rise-SNP.html

    One fewer 'trump card' in the "inevitable" (sic) Indy negotiations......
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Firestopper,

    "Alternatively, It's noticeable, to me at least, how the public are firming up for none of the major political parties."

    It used to be the case that people would vote to prevent the worst of the two real options ending up in government. The LDs gained there but they are now part of the establishment.

    I suspect that the lack of clear blue (or red) water will reduce this "worst" choice fear now that the differences are paper-thin anyway. You can vote Kipper or Green or whatever, and it's not the end of the world if the Blue or Reds get in. There are minor differences only at the economic level and socially, it's the same.

    Why not vote Green and get Blue? Why not vote Kipper and get Red? Why vote against Blue/Red when the worst case is the same as the less worst case?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: What our graphic artists think "a pale imitation" of Neil Kinnock might look like; http://t.co/8F1ylmqnbB http://t.co/aGSCMa5kIr

    Should it not be an environmentally friendly bulb after all the conferences reduce poor Ed to tears don't they? I see though the lamp is an Eddison screw fit " very appropriate" given the additional costs this guy alone created for every house in the land and continues to do so with his energy freeze gimmick.
  • @Scrapheap_as_was

    For those of you who are having trouble managing different betting accounts, I recommend using a password manager such as lastpass. This has a browser extension that can automatically remember and fill in your login details for you. As this frees you from having to remember the details, you can also use randomly geneated passwords so that you are not re-using passwords across different sites, which enhances security.
  • Nice pic of Shadsy. That hair style really suits him.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,125
    Moses_ said:

    As Labours positioning on the NHS descends into total chaos and Farce ( Daily Telegraph) the financial Times reports "Britain's economy has grown at its fastest rate since the 2008 financial crisis" and Labours election plans already start to crumble as the Tories trends towards leads increase...... There are still 98 days to go, several debates and 3 weeks on the hustings .........and Burnham not guaranteed a cabinet position even if they did win?

    At this rate Labour will be sub 25

    POEMWAS.

    Very early days. But so far not one of Ed's best weeks. Milburn has been saying that Lab are running a rerun of 1992. But we are still 100 days away. The NHS card is being played early. Jennifer's ear wasn't raised until the actual campaign with Kinnock.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Tim_B said:

    RodCrosby said:
    I have been to both Auschwitz and Dachau, about 30 years ago. Both were disturbing - Dachau because of its intimacy and compactness, being in the middle of an artists colony, and Auschwitz for its sheer scale (Birkenau) and its banality in the original camp, which was originally a Polish army cavalry camp.

    The one absurd thing that struck me in all of them was that there are no birds singing.

    You could still feel the evil.
    I went to Dachau also and agree. I also took a number of photographs during the day which was cold grey and overcast. A few weeks later I looked back at them and got a serious fright. Two of the photos taken were in the vicinity of the area of executions and torture at one end of the camp. These came out with the sky as blood red. There were trees with leaves also in the two pictures where the red was behind and filled the gaps entirely. I have shown it to a couple of local camera experts and they cannot explain the outcome. All other pictures were entirely normal as was the view when I took the two pictures. I have never been able to explain this?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited January 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Amazing A Burnham interview on Newsnight last night. Concedes Labour has no limit on % of private NHS provision. http://t.co/GfhAG7e7LD

    Interesting stat from that:

    % NHS Outsourced - change:
    Labour: +4.4%
    Coalition: +1.5%

    So the coalition is daily vilified by Labour for increasing outsourcing by one third of Labour's increase......
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,125
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Amazing A Burnham interview on Newsnight last night. Concedes Labour has no limit on % of private NHS provision. http://t.co/GfhAG7e7LD

    Hmm. Seems to be taking it out of context. Burnham was pressed whether there was a hard % number, he said no, what there is a move back to NHS being main provider with some stuff bought in, in support, from private sector.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Fame at last.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    As Labours positioning on the NHS descends into total chaos and Farce ( Daily Telegraph) the financial Times reports "Britain's economy has grown at its fastest rate since the 2008 financial crisis" and Labours election plans already start to crumble as the Tories trends towards leads increase...... There are still 98 days to go, several debates and 3 weeks on the hustings .........and Burnham not guaranteed a cabinet position even if they did win?

    At this rate Labour will be sub 25

    POEMWAS.

    Very early days. But so far not one of Ed's best weeks. Milburn has been saying that Lab are running a rerun of 1992. But we are still 100 days away. The NHS card is being played early. Jennifer's ear wasn't raised until the actual campaign with Kinnock.
    The NHS is traditionally there last redoubt, their fall back position When all else has failed they stand fast at the NHS barricade and pray for deliverance.

    All they now need to do is start singing " men of Harlech" as the Zulus advance and the picture is entirely complete.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited January 2015

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Amazing A Burnham interview on Newsnight last night. Concedes Labour has no limit on % of private NHS provision. http://t.co/GfhAG7e7LD

    there is a move back to NHS being main provider
    Since the difference is:

    % NHS publicly Sourced:

    Labour: 95.6%
    Coalition: 94.1%

    We truly are deep into the narcissism of small differences......
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    At the risk of being sexist, I thought the problem was Burnham was that he took the wrong tone with a woman. He didn't say ... "this is far too complicated for you, dear, so listen carefully" but I expected it any minute. He'd have got away with it against Paxman but against Wark, it looked like bullying.

    Hyperbole we expect from politicians. Twenty four hour to save the pound/NHS is par for the course and they'll say the same again tomorrow. But Burnham's big idea was closer cooperation between health and social care - probably not a bad idea but it should be happening anyway.

    It seems that the more the big two parties merge, the more they scream how different they are. Tweedledee is much better than Tweedledum. Tweedledee is nicer and Tweedledum more efficient, so there.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Hmm. Seems to be taking it out of context. Burnham was pressed whether there was a hard % number, he said no, what there is a move back to NHS being main provider with some stuff bought in, in support, from private sector.

    @DPJHodges: Andy Burnham in the Mirror writes that Labour will "call time on the [NHS] market experiment". On Newsnight he said the opposite.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Amazing A Burnham interview on Newsnight last night. Concedes Labour has no limit on % of private NHS provision. http://t.co/GfhAG7e7LD

    Hmm. Seems to be taking it out of context. Burnham was pressed whether there was a hard % number, he said no, what there is a move back to NHS being main provider with some stuff bought in, in support, from private sector.
    Since the difference is:

    % NHS publicly Sourced:

    Labour: 95.6%
    Coalition: 94.1%

    We truly are deep into the narcissism of small differences......
    The Blairites are Cameroons and the Cameroons are Blairites, as used to be posted here incessantly.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:

    As Labours positioning on the NHS descends into total chaos and Farce ( Daily Telegraph) the financial Times reports "Britain's economy has grown at its fastest rate since the 2008 financial crisis" and Labours election plans already start to crumble as the Tories trends towards leads increase...... There are still 98 days to go, several debates and 3 weeks on the hustings .........and Burnham not guaranteed a cabinet position even if they did win?

    At this rate Labour will be sub 25

    POEMWAS.

    Very early days. But so far not one of Ed's best weeks. Milburn has been saying that Lab are running a rerun of 1992. But we are still 100 days away. The NHS card is being played early. Jennifer's ear wasn't raised until the actual campaign with Kinnock.
    The NHS is traditionally there last redoubt, their fall back position When all else has failed they stand fast at the NHS barricade and pray for deliverance.

    All they now need to do is start singing " men of Harlech" as the Zulus advance and the picture is entirely complete.
    Some of us are old enough to remember Conservatives under William Hague's slogan: 24 hours until Gordon Brown saves the pound.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Moses_ said:

    Tim_B said:

    RodCrosby said:
    I have been to both Auschwitz and Dachau, about 30 years ago. Both were disturbing - Dachau because of its intimacy and compactness, being in the middle of an artists colony, and Auschwitz for its sheer scale (Birkenau) and its banality in the original camp, which was originally a Polish army cavalry camp.

    The one absurd thing that struck me in all of them was that there are no birds singing.

    You could still feel the evil.
    I went to Dachau also and agree. I also took a number of photographs during the day which was cold grey and overcast. A few weeks later I looked back at them and got a serious fright. Two of the photos taken were in the vicinity of the area of executions and torture at one end of the camp. These came out with the sky as blood red. There were trees with leaves also in the two pictures where the red was behind and filled the gaps entirely. I have shown it to a couple of local camera experts and they cannot explain the outcome. All other pictures were entirely normal as was the view when I took the two pictures. I have never been able to explain this?

    I remember behind the execution block - gas chambers and ovens - at Dachau there was a series of odd shaped flower beds. They were built up to a peak about 6 feet tall, with slopes on both sides. Roses were planted on the slopes, and Russian POWs were marched up and machine gunned, so that their blood would help to grow the roses.

    I remember initially feeling the utter horror of the place, and yet by the time I left my senses were dulled, which goes to show how quickly you become immune to the sheer immensity of what was committed there.

    Dachau - and Theodor Eicke - became the training ground for all Nazi Concentration Camps.

    That visit instilled in me the meaning of extremism.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2015
    (a) Sky News's projection has Labour losing around 40-45 seats to the SNP.

    (b) The last 3 opinion polls show a 3% swing to Labour, which would deliver around 40-45 gains to the party in England and Wales.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Trident off to Wales?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2929226/Trident-quit-Scotland-Wales-Secret-plan-nuclear-subs-triggered-rise-SNP.html

    One fewer 'trump card' in the "inevitable" (sic) Indy negotiations......

    Given that the SNP aim is to remove Trident from Scotland then that's a win for the SNP.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015


    Indeed. Anna Soubry and I are both enthusiastic supporters. On a range of issues (mostly social), we do actually agree.

    Repent at leisure ? The evidence from the Australian experience here is not in yet, but the preliminary discussion implies that with the lack of brand competition, people tend to buy the cheapest, and the companies also complete on price not brand, so the price of cigarettes plummets and usage goes up.

    And then there is this, the plain packaging makes it easy to sell counterfeit cigs:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11372374/Nick-de-Bois-Introducing-plain-cigarette-packaging-could-go-badly-badly-wrong.html
    The lack of attention to the growth of illicit cigarettes is irresponsible. Bringing forward plain packaging legislation - rather than waiting for comprehensive data from Australia about impact on smoking rates, tax revenues and crucially assessing the growth of illicit cigarettes - is the result of "feel good" politics as opposed to rational, evidenced-based policy. If standardised packaging does go ahead, that feel good feeling will soon be replaced by the realisation that we’ve got this badly, badly wrong.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Morning all and Mike deserves such credit for giving us all hours of fun and frustration over the past decade.

    Credit also to Robert, TSE, Henry Manson, Antifrank, Jack W, Sunil, Andy JS, Rod Crosby, Harry Hayfield, Mark Senior and those others I have forgotten to mention who take a great deal of time and trouble to contribute articles, compile spreadsheets on marginal seats and swings etc etc.

    As we are now within 100days of the GE, more than ever I see the numbers looking like
    Tory 35-37%
    Labour 25-28%
    LibDem 10-15%
    UKIP 10-15%

    and Tories largest party between 300 seats and an ultra thin Tory majority
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Scott_P said:

    Hmm. Seems to be taking it out of context. Burnham was pressed whether there was a hard % number, he said no, what there is a move back to NHS being main provider with some stuff bought in, in support, from private sector.

    @DPJHodges: Andy Burnham in the Mirror writes that Labour will "call time on the [NHS] market experiment". On Newsnight he said the opposite.
    Its not entirely clear what he said on Newsnight - and he really shouldn't say to an interviewer 'You haven't been listening to my answers' when he has not being answering their questions......
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Great article and very satisfying for Mike personally - well-deserved. I also appreciated this paragraph:

    "Most of us would be terrified by the notion of subjecting our career and livelihood to continual monstering by the press and Twittersphere, interspersed with periodic revalidation by public whim."

    Indigo said:

    WTF are the Tories (in the person of Jane Ellison) doing manufacturing splits for no good reason with the plain packaging nonsense.

    I've seen comments from a handful of Tory MPs supportive of this measure on Facebook. They think they're doing the right thing.
    Indeed. Anna Soubry and I are both enthusiastic supporters. On a range of issues (mostly social), we do actually agree.

    If she loses in May I expect we'll see her back again quite soon, possibly as MP for Rushcliffe.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Alistair said:

    Trident off to Wales?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2929226/Trident-quit-Scotland-Wales-Secret-plan-nuclear-subs-triggered-rise-SNP.html

    One fewer 'trump card' in the "inevitable" (sic) Indy negotiations......

    Given that the SNP aim is to remove Trident from Scotland then that's a win for the SNP.
    Its only a 'win' in a negotiation if your opposite wants to keep it there.....if they have already moved it, or are ready to do so, what do you have to offer in return for something you want?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2015
    Morning. Is it possible to bet on Labour receiving a lower share than last time? I haven't noticed that option so far.

    Morning all and Mike deserves such credit for giving us all hours of fun and frustration over the past decade.

    Credit also to Robert, TSE, Henry Manson, Antifrank, Jack W, Sunil, Andy JS, Rod Crosby, Harry Hayfield, Mark Senior and those others I have forgotten to mention who take a great deal of time and trouble to contribute articles, compile spreadsheets on marginal seats and swings etc etc.

    As we are now within 100days of the GE, more than ever I see the numbers looking like
    Tory 35-37%
    Labour 25-28%
    LibDem 10-15%
    UKIP 10-15%

    and Tories largest party between 300 seats and an ultra thin Tory majority

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:

    As Labours positioning on the NHS descends into total chaos and Farce ( Daily Telegraph) the financial Times reports "Britain's economy has grown at its fastest rate since the 2008 financial crisis" and Labours election plans already start to crumble as the Tories trends towards leads increase...... There are still 98 days to go, several debates and 3 weeks on the hustings .........and Burnham not guaranteed a cabinet position even if they did win?

    At this rate Labour will be sub 25

    POEMWAS.

    Very early days. But so far not one of Ed's best weeks. Milburn has been saying that Lab are running a rerun of 1992. But we are still 100 days away. The NHS card is being played early. Jennifer's ear wasn't raised until the actual campaign with Kinnock.
    The NHS is traditionally there last redoubt, their fall back position When all else has failed they stand fast at the NHS barricade and pray for deliverance.

    All they now need to do is start singing " men of Harlech" as the Zulus advance and the picture is entirely complete.
    Recently every election has been the last chance to save thye NHS, and yet it still chugs merrily along.

    Cameron should try calling Miliband out on this, since it's just tub thumping bollocks.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    AndyJS said:

    Morning. Is it possible to bet on Labour receiving a lower share than last time? I haven't noticed that option so far.

    Morning all and Mike deserves such credit for giving us all hours of fun and frustration over the past decade.

    Credit also to Robert, TSE, Henry Manson, Antifrank, Jack W, Sunil, Andy JS, Rod Crosby, Harry Hayfield, Mark Senior and those others I have forgotten to mention who take a great deal of time and trouble to contribute articles, compile spreadsheets on marginal seats and swings etc etc.

    As we are now within 100days of the GE, more than ever I see the numbers looking like
    Tory 35-37%
    Labour 25-28%
    LibDem 10-15%
    UKIP 10-15%

    and Tories largest party between 300 seats and an ultra thin Tory majority

    7/4 with Ladbrokes. I put a small sum on at 2/1 a while back, which wasn't a great bet really.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Its not entirely clear what he said on Newsnight - and he really shouldn't say to an interviewer 'You haven't been listening to my answers' when he has not being answering their questions......

    @PCollinsTimes: Burnham puzzling. If doctor judges private provider to be best option, is that OK? If it replaces public provider?
    https://t.co/vrJ8vSbO7I

    @PCollinsTimes: I was also impressed by the idea that outsourcing at 4.4% is fine. But outsourcing at 6.6% is terrible. It's a very precise location of hell

    @iainmartin1: @PCollinsTimes How about 5.5%? #thirdway

    The journo consensus is very much that the Burnham interview proceeded in a manner not necessarily to his advantage.

    @paulwaugh: Milburn/Hutton/Mand feel like drummer + guitarists trying to get band back together. But minus lead singer Blair. Discuss #UglyRumours #WRM
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,711
    I went to Belsen 30+ years ago. Like Moses, RodCrosby & Tim B I was struck by the “atmosphere" of the place; it was really cold and cruel. (And we were there on a sunny summer day). No birds singing there, either. Dreadful, dreadful place.

    A granddaughter was a teacher on a school party which went to Auschwitz a couple of years ago. She told me that what really broke her was seeing the piles of children’s shoes!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    On betting my current slips are as follows - but if I have left a private bet off then let me know

    Sourby to win
    Huppert to win
    Lay Lab maj
    Cons most seats
    Kippers to poll under 17% (Mike K)
    LDs to get more actual votes than Ukip (isam)

  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited January 2015
    I didn't think Burnham was that bad on Newsnight. He obviously cares about the NHS.

    His problem is a) the graph, which clearly showed the coalition has outsourced to private providers in fewer numbers than Labour did, and b) that he and Ed Miliband want to make the NHS the 'centrepiece' of the GE campaign when the major difference in policy seems small and the big difference just semantics.

    Kirsty Wark was very good and very correct. Most patients want the best care and the quickest recovery, if that means being outsourced to a private clinic then would they actually give a toss?

    I don't think many people want or support vast chuncks of NHS treatments being outsourced to private providers but a rise in five years from 4.4% outsourcing to 5.9% is hardly a worry. Certainly not time to start fearmongering on about 'saving the NHS'.

    Take the politics out of it and the difference between Labour and the Tories is very small. Though I suspect perceptions among the electorate that Labour are better at running the NHS are out of synch with the numbers, hence the centrepiecing of the issue.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    NickP,

    Strangely enough, voters do want a reason to vote for the man or woman who appears at the door. Honesty would be a good start. Andy B could have said .... "When Tony was in charge, we were all Blairites, so a little competition was good. Now we're all Milibandites, so any competition is bad. If we change leader tomorrow ... wait and see."

    Patronising the voter is bad, though. We may be thick, but we can often tell when you're saying things you don't really mean. We accept you may have to, but don't assume we're stupid enough not to know the difference.

    You and Ms Soubry may be the exception, but if you are - that's why your career in your respective parties may be less than stellar.

    Yes, I am a cynic.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Ah! The differences between the two Eds on an SNP pact explained - Iain Martin: Apparently Miliband was advised Scots voters used to Holyrood pacts so don't rule out deal with SNP. Ignores somewhere called, er, England.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Scott_P said:

    Hmm. Seems to be taking it out of context. Burnham was pressed whether there was a hard % number, he said no, what there is a move back to NHS being main provider with some stuff bought in, in support, from private sector.

    @DPJHodges: Andy Burnham in the Mirror writes that Labour will "call time on the [NHS] market experiment". On Newsnight he said the opposite.
    Its not entirely clear what he said on Newsnight - and he really shouldn't say to an interviewer 'You haven't been listening to my answers' when he has not being answering their questions......
    This shows the danger I was talking about the other day. Years of shadow ministers not saying anything means they have had no practice, so trip up as soon as the interviewer takes them off piste.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Fenster said:

    I didn't think Burnham was that bad on Newsnight. He obviously cares about the NHS.

    His problem is he seems to care about NHS staff more than patients.

    The message he wanted to give last night was clearly "no more outsourcing", but when confronted with the reality that outsourcing might be better for patients he backtracked.

    His message is confused and contradictory. No wonder he can't sell it.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    I went to Belsen 30+ years ago. Like Moses, RodCrosby & Tim B I was struck by the “atmosphere" of the place; it was really cold and cruel. (And we were there on a sunny summer day). No birds singing there, either. Dreadful, dreadful place.

    A granddaughter was a teacher on a school party which went to Auschwitz a couple of years ago. She told me that what really broke her was seeing the piles of children’s shoes!

    It really gives meaning to the banality of evil - which is truly frightening.

    Auschwitz is industrial scale murder - 1.9 million people - Dachau is the boutique killing experience.

    it is the stuff of nightmares for reasonable people.

    Belsen is where Anne Frank was murdered.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    TGOHF said:

    On betting my current slips are as follows - but if I have left a private bet off then let me know

    Sourby to win
    Huppert to win
    Lay Lab maj
    Cons most seats
    Kippers to poll under 17% (Mike K)
    LDs to get more actual votes than Ukip (isam)

    Of those positions I am as follows:

    Backed Nick
    Agree
    Red on Lab Majority
    Green Con most seats.
    No Bet
    Ukip votes > Lib Dem
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:

    As Labours positioning on the NHS descends into total chaos and Farce ( Daily Telegraph) the financial Times reports "Britain's economy has grown at its fastest rate since the 2008 financial crisis" and Labours election plans already start to crumble as the Tories trends towards leads increase...... There are still 98 days to go, several debates and 3 weeks on the hustings .........and Burnham not guaranteed a cabinet position even if they did win?

    At this rate Labour will be sub 25

    POEMWAS.

    Very early days. But so far not one of Ed's best weeks. Milburn has been saying that Lab are running a rerun of 1992. But we are still 100 days away. The NHS card is being played early. Jennifer's ear wasn't raised until the actual campaign with Kinnock.
    The NHS is traditionally there last redoubt, their fall back position When all else has failed they stand fast at the NHS barricade and pray for deliverance.

    All they now need to do is start singing " men of Harlech" as the Zulus advance and the picture is entirely complete.
    Recently every election has been the last chance to save thye NHS, and yet it still chugs merrily along.

    Cameron should try calling Miliband out on this, since it's just tub thumping bollocks.
    Well quite - remove the politicking BS and there's very little difference between the two.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,346
    edited January 2015

    Alistair said:

    Trident off to Wales?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2929226/Trident-quit-Scotland-Wales-Secret-plan-nuclear-subs-triggered-rise-SNP.html

    One fewer 'trump card' in the "inevitable" (sic) Indy negotiations......

    Given that the SNP aim is to remove Trident from Scotland then that's a win for the SNP.
    Its only a 'win' in a negotiation if your opposite wants to keep it there.....if they have already moved it, or are ready to do so, what do you have to offer in return for something you want?
    As it is in any case a policy objective which SLAB share*, and SLAB have conspicuously failed to achieve, winning it is indeed a win.

    The article is short on facts (River Clyde, aye, right) and dates and I'm not sure they haven't simply rehashed a 2012 story

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/uk-nuclear-deterrent-welcome-wales-2053261

    As nobody else has picked up on the story that I can see, I wonder if they simply did a rehash after phoning some contact in Welsh Labour to make it 'news'.

    I suspect the unionist propaganda about the tens of thousands of Trident jobs in the glens might backfire somewhat (MoD actual figure: 512 IIRC). Also, the article carefully avoids the issue of where the missile and so on handling/maintenace base actually is, though there will be no doubt lots of one-off work in digging out tunnels in e.g. Worms Head to replace Coulport.

    Bit of a non-story in one sense, but it does raise the small matter of what the locals might think, and it might be worth keeping an eye on this if anyone has any bets on the GE in the Milford Haven area.


    *depending on the time of month, whether there is a r in the month, etc.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    antifrank said:

    AndyJS said:

    Morning. Is it possible to bet on Labour receiving a lower share than last time? I haven't noticed that option so far.

    Morning all and Mike deserves such credit for giving us all hours of fun and frustration over the past decade.

    Credit also to Robert, TSE, Henry Manson, Antifrank, Jack W, Sunil, Andy JS, Rod Crosby, Harry Hayfield, Mark Senior and those others I have forgotten to mention who take a great deal of time and trouble to contribute articles, compile spreadsheets on marginal seats and swings etc etc.

    As we are now within 100days of the GE, more than ever I see the numbers looking like
    Tory 35-37%
    Labour 25-28%
    LibDem 10-15%
    UKIP 10-15%

    and Tories largest party between 300 seats and an ultra thin Tory majority

    7/4 with Ladbrokes. I put a small sum on at 2/1 a while back, which wasn't a great bet really.
    Thanks.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    On betting my current slips are as follows - but if I have left a private bet off then let me know

    Sourby to win
    Huppert to win
    Lay Lab maj
    Cons most seats
    Kippers to poll under 17% (Mike K)
    LDs to get more actual votes than Ukip (isam)

    Of those positions I am as follows:

    Backed Nick
    Agree
    Red on Lab Majority
    Green Con most seats.
    No Bet
    Ukip votes > Lib Dem
    My big political betting position is on the SNP doing well. At present, this is a position I intend leaving open to the election.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited January 2015
    antifrank said:

    AndyJS said:

    Morning. Is it possible to bet on Labour receiving a lower share than last time? I haven't noticed that option so far.

    Morning all and Mike deserves such credit for giving us all hours of fun and frustration over the past decade.

    Credit also to Robert, TSE, Henry Manson, Antifrank, Jack W, Sunil, Andy JS, Rod Crosby, Harry Hayfield, Mark Senior and those others I have forgotten to mention who take a great deal of time and trouble to contribute articles, compile spreadsheets on marginal seats and swings etc etc.

    As we are now within 100days of the GE, more than ever I see the numbers looking like
    Tory 35-37%
    Labour 25-28%
    LibDem 10-15%
    UKIP 10-15%

    and Tories largest party between 300 seats and an ultra thin Tory majority

    7/4 with Ladbrokes. I put a small sum on at 2/1 a while back, which wasn't a great bet really.
    2-1/7-4 sounds a bit skinny for that.

    No bet recommended ?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:

    AndyJS said:

    Morning. Is it possible to bet on Labour receiving a lower share than last time? I haven't noticed that option so far.

    Morning all and Mike deserves such credit for giving us all hours of fun and frustration over the past decade.

    Credit also to Robert, TSE, Henry Manson, Antifrank, Jack W, Sunil, Andy JS, Rod Crosby, Harry Hayfield, Mark Senior and those others I have forgotten to mention who take a great deal of time and trouble to contribute articles, compile spreadsheets on marginal seats and swings etc etc.

    As we are now within 100days of the GE, more than ever I see the numbers looking like
    Tory 35-37%
    Labour 25-28%
    LibDem 10-15%
    UKIP 10-15%

    and Tories largest party between 300 seats and an ultra thin Tory majority

    7/4 with Ladbrokes. I put a small sum on at 2/1 a while back, which wasn't a great bet really.
    2-1/7-4 sounds a bit skinny for that.

    No bet recommended ?
    I don't recommend a bet at either 7/4 or 2/1. I'm not proud of that one, and won't be even if it comes home.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    On betting my current slips are as follows - but if I have left a private bet off then let me know

    Sourby to win
    Huppert to win
    Lay Lab maj
    Cons most seats
    Kippers to poll under 17% (Mike K)
    LDs to get more actual votes than Ukip (isam)

    Of those positions I am as follows:

    Backed Nick
    Agree
    Red on Lab Majority
    Green Con most seats.
    No Bet
    Ukip votes > Lib Dem
    My big political betting position is on the SNP doing well. At present, this is a position I intend leaving open to the election.
    Oh yes I am on the SNP too in a fair fashion.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited January 2015
    Btw has anyone got the time (I certainly don't) to present the Labour/Conservative vote share time charts in England only ?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,346
    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    Trident off to Wales?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2929226/Trident-quit-Scotland-Wales-Secret-plan-nuclear-subs-triggered-rise-SNP.html

    One fewer 'trump card' in the "inevitable" (sic) Indy negotiations......

    Given that the SNP aim is to remove Trident from Scotland then that's a win for the SNP.
    Its only a 'win' in a negotiation if your opposite wants to keep it there.....if they have already moved it, or are ready to do so, what do you have to offer in return for something you want?
    As it is in any case a policy objective which SLAB share*, and SLAB have conspicuously failed to achieve, winning it is indeed a win.

    The article is short on facts (River Clyde, aye, right) and dates and I'm not sure they haven't simply rehashed a 2012 story

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/uk-nuclear-deterrent-welcome-wales-2053261

    As nobody else has picked up on the story that I can see, I wonder if they simply did a rehash after phoning some contact in Welsh Labour to make it 'news'.

    I suspect the unionist propaganda about the tens of thousands of Trident jobs in the glens might backfire somewhat (MoD actual figure: 512 IIRC). Also, the article carefully avoids the issue of where the missile and so on handling/maintenace base actually is, though there will be no doubt lots of one-off work in digging out tunnels in e.g. Worms Head to replace Coulport.

    Bit of a non-story in one sense, but it does raise the small matter of what the locals might think, and it might be worth keeping an eye on this if anyone has any bets on the GE in the Milford Haven area.


    *depending on the time of month, whether there is a r in the month, etc.
    EDIT: for 'time of month', read 'time of day' - just realised unfortunate muddle on my part and double entendre.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited January 2015
    @Antifrank Monday is a big day for SNP/Scotland bettors, I better work properly list and work out my precise positions in Scotland over the weekend.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    @Antifrank Monday is a big day for SNP bettors, I better work properly list and work out my precise positions in Scotland over the weekend.

    I have my list of bets. Would you like me to extract my current Scottish bets and put up a link to them? (I'd rather not put the whole list up because quite a few are trading positions, but since I'm not intending to trade the Scottish bets, I can put this bit of the list up.)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Antifrank Monday is a big day for SNP bettors, I better work properly list and work out my precise positions in Scotland over the weekend.

    I have my list of bets. Would you like me to extract my current Scottish bets and put up a link to them? (I'd rather not put the whole list up because quite a few are trading positions, but since I'm not intending to trade the Scottish bets, I can put this bit of the list up.)
    Vanilla inbox
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Will the real Jim Murphy please stand up?
    The Scottish Labour leader needs to decide if he is a Blairite reformer or an old-school left-winger


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/11372609/Will-the-real-Jim-Murphy-please-stand-up.html

    Of course, as the Nats always tell us, Alan Cochrane writes absolute rubbish......
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701

    Great article and very satisfying for Mike personally - well-deserved. I also appreciated this paragraph:

    "Most of us would be terrified by the notion of subjecting our career and livelihood to continual monstering by the press and Twittersphere, interspersed with periodic revalidation by public whim."

    Indigo said:

    WTF are the Tories (in the person of Jane Ellison) doing manufacturing splits for no good reason with the plain packaging nonsense.

    I've seen comments from a handful of Tory MPs supportive of this measure on Facebook. They think they're doing the right thing.
    Indeed. Anna Soubry and I are both enthusiastic supporters. On a range of issues (mostly social), we do actually agree.

    In one sentence you encapsulate the problem with Cameron's Conservatives. That's precisely why I couldn't support either of you if I lived in Broxtowe.

    But of course you know that, and probably enjoyed a little bit making that comment.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,711
    Tim_B said:

    I went to Belsen 30+ years ago. Like Moses, RodCrosby & Tim B I was struck by the “atmosphere" of the place; it was really cold and cruel. (And we were there on a sunny summer day). No birds singing there, either. Dreadful, dreadful place.

    A granddaughter was a teacher on a school party which went to Auschwitz a couple of years ago. She told me that what really broke her was seeing the piles of children’s shoes!

    It really gives meaning to the banality of evil - which is truly frightening.

    Auschwitz is industrial scale murder - 1.9 million people - Dachau is the boutique killing experience.

    it is the stuff of nightmares for reasonable people.

    Belsen is where Anne Frank was murdered.
    Frightening indeed! “I was only following orders!” And what happened to all the guards? IIRC very few were actually prosecuted. Further, Belsen was close to a village and surely, surely something would have leaked out.

    Incidentally on the 10pm news last night there was something about Anne Franck dying in Auschwitz, and he father being there too. My recollection was clearly Belsen, although I wasn’t able to look it up last night!
  • Matthew Engel is a former editor of Wisden, that makes him a top banana.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good morning.
    Fantastic article and major PR for PB. We should be seeing some new punters arriving on site
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    I went to Belsen 30+ years ago. Like Moses, RodCrosby & Tim B I was struck by the “atmosphere" of the place; it was really cold and cruel. (And we were there on a sunny summer day). No birds singing there, either. Dreadful, dreadful place.

    A granddaughter was a teacher on a school party which went to Auschwitz a couple of years ago. She told me that what really broke her was seeing the piles of children’s shoes!

    Without in any way detracting from the Holocaust, its interesting to note how little note is made by comparison about the approximately simultaneous atrocities by the Japanese in which around 10,000,000 are believed killed, including around 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Trident off to Wales?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2929226/Trident-quit-Scotland-Wales-Secret-plan-nuclear-subs-triggered-rise-SNP.html

    One fewer 'trump card' in the "inevitable" (sic) Indy negotiations......

    LOL, Tories , you could not make them up
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Matthew Engel is a former editor of Wisden, that makes him a top banana.

    And his article will no doubt send hordes of Labourites to PB, only to be told they should be ashamed of trying to weaponize the NHS and that Ed Miliband is cr@p. Although they knew that anyway.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    I went to Belsen 30+ years ago. Like Moses, RodCrosby & Tim B I was struck by the “atmosphere" of the place; it was really cold and cruel. (And we were there on a sunny summer day). No birds singing there, either. Dreadful, dreadful place.

    A granddaughter was a teacher on a school party which went to Auschwitz a couple of years ago. She told me that what really broke her was seeing the piles of children’s shoes!

    It really gives meaning to the banality of evil - which is truly frightening.

    Auschwitz is industrial scale murder - 1.9 million people - Dachau is the boutique killing experience.

    it is the stuff of nightmares for reasonable people.

    Belsen is where Anne Frank was murdered.
    Frightening indeed! “I was only following orders!” And what happened to all the guards? IIRC very few were actually prosecuted. Further, Belsen was close to a village and surely, surely something would have leaked out.

    Incidentally on the 10pm news last night there was something about Anne Franck dying in Auschwitz, and he father being there too. My recollection was clearly Belsen, although I wasn’t able to look it up last night!
    The nazis - bless their hearts - kept impeccable records , and Anne Frank died at Belsen.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Alistair said:

    Trident off to Wales?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2929226/Trident-quit-Scotland-Wales-Secret-plan-nuclear-subs-triggered-rise-SNP.html

    One fewer 'trump card' in the "inevitable" (sic) Indy negotiations......

    Given that the SNP aim is to remove Trident from Scotland then that's a win for the SNP.
    Its only a 'win' in a negotiation if your opposite wants to keep it there.....if they have already moved it, or are ready to do so, what do you have to offer in return for something you want?
    It would be a WIN , big time , but as it is a load of bollocks it matters not a jot.
  • I see UKIP would allow smoking in pubs again.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    >I went to Belsen 30+ years ago. Like Moses, RodCrosby & Tim B I was struck by the “atmosphere" of the place; it was really cold and cruel. (And we were there on a sunny summer day). No birds singing there, either. Dreadful, dreadful place.

    A granddaughter was a teacher on a school party which went to Auschwitz a couple of years ago. She told me that what really broke her was seeing the piles of children’s shoes!

    It really gives meaning to the banality of evil - which is truly frightening.

    Auschwitz is industrial scale murder - 1.9 million people - Dachau is the boutique killing experience.

    it is the stuff of nightmares for reasonable people.

    Belsen is where Anne Frank was murdered.

    In Dachau there are memorials to all faiths but the Jewish memorial is the most poignant. It leads down a slope into a circular area with a long tall and ever narrowing chimney style structure above. It indicates the only exit those that went into the chambers had. for me stood in that building just put everything today in prospective.

    Yet some would deny it and some would have us move on as it is a situation from the past...... But is it? When similar things albeit on much smaller scales continue to occur in Europe we appear as powerless as ever to prevent.

    The school parties should continue as a reminder to the young not to make the same mistakes and never forget.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited January 2015

    I see UKIP would allow smoking in pubs again.

    Boozing in a pub isn't exactly healthy so I couldn't give a monkeys for us punters, but bad news for bar staff imo.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,155
    edited January 2015

    Will the real Jim Murphy please stand up?
    The Scottish Labour leader needs to decide if he is a Blairite reformer or an old-school left-winger


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/11372609/Will-the-real-Jim-Murphy-please-stand-up.html

    Of course, as the Nats always tell us, Alan Cochrane writes absolute rubbish......

    Since he's recycling what plenty of folk (including Nats) have been saying about Murphy for a while, it's debatable whether Cochrane can claim any authorship of that view. There was a point when, like the PB Loyalists, Cochers was extolling the virtues of Saint Jim.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,711
    Indigo said:

    I went to Belsen 30+ years ago. Like Moses, RodCrosby & Tim B I was struck by the “atmosphere" of the place; it was really cold and cruel. (And we were there on a sunny summer day). No birds singing there, either. Dreadful, dreadful place.

    A granddaughter was a teacher on a school party which went to Auschwitz a couple of years ago. She told me that what really broke her was seeing the piles of children’s shoes!

    Without in any way detracting from the Holocaust, its interesting to note how little note is made by comparison about the approximately simultaneous atrocities by the Japanese in which around 10,000,000 are believed killed, including around 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.
    I think that it was the “industrial process” of killing which was peculiarly horriying, to Western eyes at least.
    Unless I’m in error, and I’m sure someone here knows, the Japanese atrocities were more in line with the bloodlust shown by humans the world over, and for generations, in the immediate aftermath of the surrender of armies and indeed cities.

    Watching the stories about the two Japanese prisoners of ISIL my wife remarked that there was something “odd” about the Japanese complaining about barbarity to prisoners!
    However we agreed that there was "more joy in heavan over one sinner which repenteth"
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