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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tories slump 5 while Greens jump to 11 in this week’s Ashcr

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  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Peak Weasel

    .@LordAshcroft focus group: PM likened to fox/giraffe; Farage peacock/ weasel; Clegg chihuahua; Ed M zoo animal 'noone wants to see'

    What about Natalie Bennett?
    Fox - hunting a chicken ?

    Masterstroke by Cam to big up the Greens - much derided by some on here.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    With an MoE of 3% Greens at 11% might just as easily be Greens at 8%. The last time it was 6% that is also within MoE of 8%.

    Its all MoE stuff still, its just looks impressive on small parties.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    antifrank said:

    isam said:

    This is another thread dominated by squabbling over polls that might/might not be favourable to someones preferred option... and that may or may not be anywhere near the current mood/GE result

    "An observation, not a criticism" as my Dad says to my Mum after dinner, but I think less threads micro analysing polls and more about individual betting heats or political philosophy would be beneficial, and result in less partisan nonsery

    No single poll should be taken too seriously. The more interesting its results, the more likely it is to be an outlier, one way or another.
    Right - the fact that this poll is so entertaining for having the Greens on 11% is a clear sign that the Greens won't poll 11% in May.

    Still fun though.
  • The question we should all be asking is whether all these polls are really just confusing the issue more. I am not sure I see the value! What was wrong with monthly polls!!!?
  • Neil said:

    Very odd poll. Guess it just confirms the ongoing trend of Labour and Tories staying very tight. I was relatively confident of a Lab overall majority in early 2014, don't have a clue now.

    Was in Nottingham this weekend in Nick Palmer's former constituency. Obviously somewhere Labour need to win to be on the right track come may. Was surprised to here how popular Anna Soubry seems to be locally, especially amongst some usually solid Labour voters i know. They all expect her to get back in next time.

    Obviously that's only anecdotal evidence, but if Broxtowe doesn't fall Labour are stuffed.

    That's very much at odds with Nick Palmer's own recent comments in which he appears to think he's home and dry in Broxtowe.
    I dont think anyone can fairly accuse Nick of taking the election result in Broxtowe for granted.

    Not quite but nearly in one of his recent posts... something along the line of him now expecting to win by a few thousand I think wasn't it?
    The people I was speaking to were Teachers/Social Workers - should be classic Lab voters, but were all very complimentary about Soubry's work as a constituency MP (something Mr Palmer used to get high marks for too i believe). So I was surprised at their comments and belief she would win next time.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Pulpstar said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's amazing - there is obviously a core group of people who are desperately seeking a radical left agenda. They thought the LDs would provide it only to be thwarted by reality and now they think that the Greens can provide it.

    Or rather, and more likely, they don't really care who gets in and are only interested in the moral satisfaction of not voting for "more of the same".

    Whether this is a legitimate action (of course it is) is one thing. Whether it furthers the development of participatory politics is another.

    Or the Greens have been in the news about 500% more than usual this week with the PM categorising them as the same as the Lib Dems and UKIP?
    And the effect in Populus of this publicity was to put their vote share down to 4% .
    But the effect on membership has seen them sail past the Lib Dems. That's going to have a real impact on council elections and then your beloved council by-elections up and down the country over time.

    Dream on
    Dream on about what? The membership surge? That's happened. Council election results? Well, with 3 / 4 times as many members as the last time these seats were contested there will be more people to stand in those elections and more activists to do the work to win more seats. Council by-elections? They will follow on from that. Retaining Brighton Pavilion? It's better than an 8/1 shot.

    Sweet dreams!
    So you'll be using the 8-1 winnings from Brighton to pay TSE ?
    I'll be contributing both sets of winnings to the PB Tory cocktail fund (though I may reserve some of it to pay for John O's return ticket from wherever he ends up after the party).

  • Brilliant.

    "We all have to speak out now. The time for qualification is over. We must rage against the fear. Scream ferociously “this will not stand”. That in 2015 we will not sit by whilst out neighbours feel scared to go to their shops, or take their children to school, or go to their place of worship. We need to say: “They came for the Jews. And I spoke out. Because I am not a Jew”. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11354927/They-are-still-coming-for-the-Jews.-So-why-is-nobody-speaking-out.html
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    It will be interesting to see the January ICM. Their December poll had the Lib Dems on almost three times as much support as the Greens, leading by 14% to 5%.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Found Ed in the zoo : the Aye-aye Captain, deemed an omen of ill fortune by those who see it....

    animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/aye-aye/
  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Peak Weasel

    .@LordAshcroft focus group: PM likened to fox/giraffe; Farage peacock/ weasel; Clegg chihuahua; Ed M zoo animal 'noone wants to see'

    What about Natalie Bennett?
    Fox - hunting a chicken ?

    Masterstroke by Cam to big up the Greens - much derided by some on here.
    You mean the Tory score going down to the benefit (mostly) of the Greens?
  • isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's amazing - there is obviously a core group of people who are desperately seeking a radical left agenda. They thought the LDs would provide it only to be thwarted by reality and now they think that the Greens can provide it.

    Or rather, and more likely, they don't really care who gets in and are only interested in the moral satisfaction of not voting for "more of the same".

    Whether this is a legitimate action (of course it is) is one thing. Whether it furthers the development of participatory politics is another.

    Or the Greens have been in the news about 500% more than usual this week with the PM categorising them as the same as the Lib Dems and UKIP?
    And the effect in Populus of this publicity was to put their vote share down to 4% .
    Greens at 6% in today's Populus.
    4%
    http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/OmOnline_Vote_19-01-2015_BPC.pdf
  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Peak Weasel

    .@LordAshcroft focus group: PM likened to fox/giraffe; Farage peacock/ weasel; Clegg chihuahua; Ed M zoo animal 'noone wants to see'

    What about Natalie Bennett?
    Fox - hunting a chicken ?

    Masterstroke by Cam to big up the Greens - much derided by some on here.
    Did you see the YouGov polling yesterday ?

    Shows how much out of touch Kippers are with modern Britain and their animus towards immigrants/Muslims.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Ever so slightly feel that Ashcroft's polls are becoming the 2015 Angus Reid.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    Neil said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's amazing - there is obviously a core group of people who are desperately seeking a radical left agenda. They thought the LDs would provide it only to be thwarted by reality and now they think that the Greens can provide it.

    Or rather, and more likely, they don't really care who gets in and are only interested in the moral satisfaction of not voting for "more of the same".

    Whether this is a legitimate action (of course it is) is one thing. Whether it furthers the development of participatory politics is another.

    Or the Greens have been in the news about 500% more than usual this week with the PM categorising them as the same as the Lib Dems and UKIP?
    And the effect in Populus of this publicity was to put their vote share down to 4% .
    But the effect on membership has seen them sail past the Lib Dems. That's going to have a real impact on council elections and then your beloved council by-elections up and down the country over time.

    Dream on
    Dream on about what? The membership surge? That's happened. Council election results? Well, with 3 / 4 times as many members as the last time these seats were contested there will be more people to stand in those elections and more activists to do the work to win more seats. Council by-elections? They will follow on from that. Retaining Brighton Pavilion? It's better than an 8/1 shot.

    Sweet dreams!
    So you'll be using the 8-1 winnings from Brighton to pay TSE ?
    I'll be contributing both sets of winnings to the PB Tory cocktail fund (though I may reserve some of it to pay for John O's return ticket from wherever he ends up after the party).

    First Class from the Whitsunday Islands via Watford Junction
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Danny565 said:

    The Ashcroft opinion polls really are batshit insane. There surely can't be THAT much volatility?

    I'm wondering if it puts some slight doubt on his much-vaunted marginals polls as well, tbh.

    The volatility is probably about right, given the sample size, and random variation.

    The low figures for Labour and Conservatives combined are what stand out - could be the Angus Reid of this Parliament.
    It seems to me that all the pollsters are having trouble with a 5 horse race. They are used to 2 or at the most 2.5 horses.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    BenM said:

    Ever so slightly feel that Ashcroft's polls are becoming the 2015 Angus Reid.

    Is he Canadian or has he ever been to Canada? We need to know.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited January 2015

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's amazing - there is obviously a core group of people who are desperately seeking a radical left agenda. They thought the LDs would provide it only to be thwarted by reality and now they think that the Greens can provide it.

    Or rather, and more likely, they don't really care who gets in and are only interested in the moral satisfaction of not voting for "more of the same".

    Whether this is a legitimate action (of course it is) is one thing. Whether it furthers the development of participatory politics is another.

    Or the Greens have been in the news about 500% more than usual this week with the PM categorising them as the same as the Lib Dems and UKIP?
    And the effect in Populus of this publicity was to put their vote share down to 4% .
    Greens at 6% in today's Populus.
    4%
    http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/OmOnline_Vote_19-01-2015_BPC.pdf
    No idea how many green RESPOnDENTS to the poll there were though.

    Can someone ( @OblitusSumMe ??!) calculate it ?
  • Apart from the usual Scots born lawyers; when did intellectual folk last invest in "The Gold Standard"?

    A moderated system of failure: Very much suitable for [MODERATED] plastics but not for grown-ups with a knowledge of Economics! How banal....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,123
    edited January 2015
    I haven't added Populus or Ashcroft yet but I calculate a 100% probability that the LD lead over the Greens for all of January's polls up the weekend is 1.05%, whether you use simple average or the ELBOW aggregate.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    I don't think the great British public are taking their politics very seriously at the moment. Maybe as about as seriously as our "top" politicians deserve though.

    A lot of this is Miliband's fault of course. He has lost half the SLAB vote to the SNP and now he seems to have lost a significant chunk of the dafty left vote (sorry Neil, no offence) to the Greens. Who can he lose next?

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    The fact that they are so obviously the most competent option despite all this nonsense really shows why the public have despaired and lent their votes all over the shop.

    Or Lord Ashcroft's polling is the greatest waste of money since Gordon Brown decided to increase public "investment". Hard to tell really.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Brilliant.

    "We all have to speak out now. The time for qualification is over. We must rage against the fear. Scream ferociously “this will not stand”. That in 2015 we will not sit by whilst out neighbours feel scared to go to their shops, or take their children to school, or go to their place of worship. We need to say: “They came for the Jews. And I spoke out. Because I am not a Jew”. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11354927/They-are-still-coming-for-the-Jews.-So-why-is-nobody-speaking-out.html

    Yes - very good. What took him so long to realise this, though? There have been guards outside synagogues for the last decade. He need only have asked his mother - I'm talking about her constituency.

    The terrorists in Toulouse targeted a Jewish school; the ones in Mumbai targeted the only tiny synagogue there; the terrorists in Belgium last year also targeted Jews; some people here a few years ago were charged (and, I believe, convicted) of preparing attacks on Jewish targets in Manchester. There's been plenty of evidence - for those with eyes to see.
  • Blues and Greens working hand in hand together.....

    Only natural to combat Nige and Ed's combo.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Patrick O'Flynn ‏@oflynnmep 29m29 minutes ago
    Fantastic column on the rise of UKIP by my old Daily Express colleague Leo McKinstry http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/leo-mckinstry/552791/Leo-McKinstry-on-the-rise-and-appeal-of-Ukip
  • DavidL said:

    I don't think the great British public are taking their politics very seriously at the moment. Maybe as about as seriously as our "top" politicians deserve though.

    A lot of this is Miliband's fault of course. He has lost half the SLAB vote to the SNP and now he seems to have lost a significant chunk of the dafty left vote (sorry Neil, no offence) to the Greens. Who can he lose next?

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    The fact that they are so obviously the most competent option despite all this nonsense really shows why the public have despaired and lent their votes all over the shop.

    Or Lord Ashcroft's polling is the greatest waste of money since Gordon Brown decided to increase public "investment". Hard to tell really.

    I worked out that Lord Ashcroft has spent £1.8million on marginal polls this parliament and close to £400,000 on National polling so far in this parliament.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    It will be interesting to see the January ICM. Their December poll had the Lib Dems on almost three times as much support as the Greens, leading by 14% to 5%.

    If the Greens are level with the yellow peril on ICM's methodology then Neil has done his money.
  • Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's amazing - there is obviously a core group of people who are desperately seeking a radical left agenda. They thought the LDs would provide it only to be thwarted by reality and now they think that the Greens can provide it.

    Or rather, and more likely, they don't really care who gets in and are only interested in the moral satisfaction of not voting for "more of the same".

    Whether this is a legitimate action (of course it is) is one thing. Whether it furthers the development of participatory politics is another.

    Or the Greens have been in the news about 500% more than usual this week with the PM categorising them as the same as the Lib Dems and UKIP?
    And the effect in Populus of this publicity was to put their vote share down to 4% .
    Greens at 6% in today's Populus.
    4%
    http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/OmOnline_Vote_19-01-2015_BPC.pdf
    No idea how many green RESPOnDENTS to the poll there were though.

    Can someone ( @OblitusSumMe ??!) calculate it ?
    54 out of 2036?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    DavidL said:

    I don't think the great British public are taking their politics very seriously at the moment. Maybe as about as seriously as our "top" politicians deserve though.

    A lot of this is Miliband's fault of course. He has lost half the SLAB vote to the SNP and now he seems to have lost a significant chunk of the dafty left vote (sorry Neil, no offence) to the Greens. Who can he lose next?

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    The fact that they are so obviously the most competent option despite all this nonsense really shows why the public have despaired and lent their votes all over the shop.

    Or Lord Ashcroft's polling is the greatest waste of money since Gordon Brown decided to increase public "investment". Hard to tell really.

    I worked out that Lord Ashcroft has spent £1.8million on marginal polls this parliament and close to £400,000 on National polling so far in this parliament.
    It's good to see the British services sector supported in this way.
  • Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    When I last spoke to Sean he was planning to vote Tory.

    Has he changed his mind ? Genuine question.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited January 2015
    The underlying Yougov numbers from comparing 2010 and 2015 votes by party are very close to Ashcroft's numbers.

    Both are starting to show Con and Lab at under 30%.

    Is it possible that they've spent so long berating and vilifying each other that it is difficult to see enough positives in either of them?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's amazing - there is obviously a core group of people who are desperately seeking a radical left agenda. They thought the LDs would provide it only to be thwarted by reality and now they think that the Greens can provide it.

    Or rather, and more likely, they don't really care who gets in and are only interested in the moral satisfaction of not voting for "more of the same".

    Whether this is a legitimate action (of course it is) is one thing. Whether it furthers the development of participatory politics is another.

    Or the Greens have been in the news about 500% more than usual this week with the PM categorising them as the same as the Lib Dems and UKIP?
    And the effect in Populus of this publicity was to put their vote share down to 4% .
    Greens at 6% in today's Populus.
    4%
    http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/OmOnline_Vote_19-01-2015_BPC.pdf
    No idea how many green RESPOnDENTS to the poll there were though.

    Can someone ( @OblitusSumMe ??!) calculate it ?
    54 out of 2036?
    That's the weighted number - the unweighted isn't given. (Check the UKIP topline to see what I mean)
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    When I last spoke to Sean he was planning to vote Tory.

    Has he changed his mind ? Genuine question.
    I thought he was canvassing for UKIP, but happy to be corrected.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291

    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    When I last spoke to Sean he was planning to vote Tory.

    Has he changed his mind ? Genuine question.
    If he was still living in Luton South is what he has said hitherto.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's amazing - there is obviously a core group of people who are desperately seeking a radical left agenda. They thought the LDs would provide it only to be thwarted by reality and now they think that the Greens can provide it.

    Or rather, and more likely, they don't really care who gets in and are only interested in the moral satisfaction of not voting for "more of the same".

    Whether this is a legitimate action (of course it is) is one thing. Whether it furthers the development of participatory politics is another.

    Or the Greens have been in the news about 500% more than usual this week with the PM categorising them as the same as the Lib Dems and UKIP?
    And the effect in Populus of this publicity was to put their vote share down to 4% .
    Greens at 6% in today's Populus.
    4%
    http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/OmOnline_Vote_19-01-2015_BPC.pdf
    No idea how many green RESPOnDENTS to the poll there were though.

    Can someone ( @OblitusSumMe ??!) calculate it ?
    54 out of 2036?
    That's the weighted number - the unweighted isn't given. (Check the UKIP topline to see what I mean)
    Isn't the weighted number 43 (4%).?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    We're in the era of 6 party politics now.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Start asking The Greens about their plans for car use, car ownership, oil companies, energy firms and work out the implications for families, then watch their support go...down.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited January 2015
    Artist said:

    The Mansion tax, anti-privatisation, nationalising (some) railways, minimum wage rise, market intervention.. there's not much more Labour can cede to the Green type of voter to convince them if they're not already on board.

    How about not signing up to economic/spending plans which are more right-wing than the 60%+ of the public who don't want more spending cuts?
  • antifrank said:

    DavidL said:

    I don't think the great British public are taking their politics very seriously at the moment. Maybe as about as seriously as our "top" politicians deserve though.

    A lot of this is Miliband's fault of course. He has lost half the SLAB vote to the SNP and now he seems to have lost a significant chunk of the dafty left vote (sorry Neil, no offence) to the Greens. Who can he lose next?

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    The fact that they are so obviously the most competent option despite all this nonsense really shows why the public have despaired and lent their votes all over the shop.

    Or Lord Ashcroft's polling is the greatest waste of money since Gordon Brown decided to increase public "investment". Hard to tell really.

    I worked out that Lord Ashcroft has spent £1.8million on marginal polls this parliament and close to £400,000 on National polling so far in this parliament.
    It's good to see the British services sector supported in this way.
    He's not finished yet.

    If he meets expectation he'll have spent close to £5million on polling this parliament.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited January 2015

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's amazing - there is obviously a core group of people who are desperately seeking a radical left agenda. They thought the LDs would provide it only to be thwarted by reality and now they think that the Greens can provide it.

    Or rather, and more likely, they don't really care who gets in and are only interested in the moral satisfaction of not voting for "more of the same".

    Whether this is a legitimate action (of course it is) is one thing. Whether it furthers the development of participatory politics is another.

    Or the Greens have been in the news about 500% more than usual this week with the PM categorising them as the same as the Lib Dems and UKIP?
    And the effect in Populus of this publicity was to put their vote share down to 4% .
    Greens at 6% in today's Populus.
    Or, well, last Friday's. Ooops.
  • Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    When I last spoke to Sean he was planning to vote Tory.

    Has he changed his mind ? Genuine question.
    I thought he was canvassing for UKIP, but happy to be corrected.
    He is. See JohnO's comment above.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's amazing - there is obviously a core group of people who are desperately seeking a radical left agenda. They thought the LDs would provide it only to be thwarted by reality and now they think that the Greens can provide it.

    Or rather, and more likely, they don't really care who gets in and are only interested in the moral satisfaction of not voting for "more of the same".

    Whether this is a legitimate action (of course it is) is one thing. Whether it furthers the development of participatory politics is another.

    Or the Greens have been in the news about 500% more than usual this week with the PM categorising them as the same as the Lib Dems and UKIP?
    And the effect in Populus of this publicity was to put their vote share down to 4% .
    Greens at 6% in today's Populus.
    4%
    http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/OmOnline_Vote_19-01-2015_BPC.pdf
    No idea how many green RESPOnDENTS to the poll there were though.

    Can someone ( @OblitusSumMe ??!) calculate it ?
    54 out of 2036?
    That's the weighted number - the unweighted isn't given. (Check the UKIP topline to see what I mean)
    Isn't the weighted number 43 (4%).?
    That's the turnout weighted number. But 54 is, itself a weighted number to demographics, past vote and party identification.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    This is another thread dominated by squabbling over polls that might/might not be favourable to someones preferred option...

    "An observation, not a criticism" as my Dad says to my Mum after dinner, but I think less threads micro analysing polls and more about individual betting heats or political philosophy would be beneficial, and result in less partisan nonsery

    I prefer the anecdotal feedback and animal references don't you?
    I think I do!
  • BenM said:

    Ever so slightly feel that Ashcroft's polls are becoming the 2015 Angus Reid.

    Are Angus Reid polling for 2015? If not - and I accept your point - think before you hit "Submit"....
  • I've also suggested to Lord Ashcroft that between now and the election he does two weekly polls.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    dr_spyn said:

    Start asking The Greens about their plans for car use, car ownership, oil companies, energy firms and work out the implications for families, then watch their support go...down.

    You left out our plans for taking candy from babies.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Cyclefree said:

    Brilliant.

    "We all have to speak out now. The time for qualification is over. We must rage against the fear. Scream ferociously “this will not stand”. That in 2015 we will not sit by whilst out neighbours feel scared to go to their shops, or take their children to school, or go to their place of worship. We need to say: “They came for the Jews. And I spoke out. Because I am not a Jew”. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11354927/They-are-still-coming-for-the-Jews.-So-why-is-nobody-speaking-out.html

    Yes - very good. What took him so long to realise this, though? There have been guards outside synagogues for the last decade. He need only have asked his mother - I'm talking about her constituency.

    The terrorists in Toulouse targeted a Jewish school; the ones in Mumbai targeted the only tiny synagogue there; the terrorists in Belgium last year also targeted Jews; some people here a few years ago were charged (and, I believe, convicted) of preparing attacks on Jewish targets in Manchester. There's been plenty of evidence - for those with eyes to see.
    This is the first time I knew Dan Hodges is the son of Glenda Jackson.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    By the way I predicted that the Ashcroft poll would have the major parties (I know, out of date terminology but historical references make it clear who I mean) would be within 1 per cent of each other. I am so rarely right that I thought I should draw attention to this.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Ashcroft shakes out those oversampled Tory responders from last week.

    Labour back in the lead next week.

    Nothing to see here.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited January 2015
    I think Lord Ashcroft's weekly poll can not be trusted, it's too bouncy.
    Second outlier in as many weeks.

    I think the problem with his polls is the very small sample that he ends up with after all the filters.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,629
    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    Here's the thing: let's say David Cameron came out with a rational policy on encryption and on civil liberties. The Daily Mail would crucify him: David Cameron is - to use SeanT's words - "a useful idiot" who isn't standing up against the terrorists.

    You know that's true, I know that's true. We all know that the vast majority of people think the government should be doing more to monitor internet communication to catch suspected terrorists. The fact that it is completely ineffectual is irrelevant to the debate.

    The fact is that the right has fissured in the UK, and it is split between social conservatives (and as a secondary, those who hate the EU), and social liberals. Paul_Mid_Beds, who I have enormous respect for, is a classic example of the kind of Conservative who has left because he regards the party as too socially liberal. TSE is a classic example of the kind of person who would leave if the party because socially conservative.

    I don't see the split as healing; perhaps the only way it 'might' is if the right wing of the Liberal Democrats (David Laws, Danny Alexander, Nick Clegg, etc.) and the socially liberal part off the Conservative Party were to merge. And if the left wing of the LibDems went off to join Labour (Vince, Farron, etc). In this way you'd lose one party out of the 4 (or maybe 5).

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    It looks like it is pretty hard to receive ~40-45% of the vote and not win something like two-thirds or three-quarters of the seats. That's FPTP. Tactical voting is difficult, because the prospective tactical voter can be misled by the result last time, when underlying support has shifted so much, into casting an ineffective tactical vote.

    The exception to this is, of course, when there are only two parties.

    Which is why I think the Conservatives may have missed a trick by not dissolving the Scottish branch of their party and relaunching the Unionist Party [of Scotland]. The only voting block larger than the SNPs "45%" is the Unionist "55%"...
    Un peu en retard for that little wheeze, sensible as it may be. Murdo Fraser tried that on the blue-rinses and young Tories of Scotland. He got the chop and Ruth Davidson got the leadership.

    They prefer a London sock puppet , means they cannot upset the applecart.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    Neil said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Start asking The Greens about their plans for car use, car ownership, oil companies, energy firms and work out the implications for families, then watch their support go...down.

    You left out our plans for taking candy from babies.
    Now Neil, you are exaggerating. There is no Green policy to take candy from babies.

    Regulate it, limit its distribution, question the parental authority of those foolish enough to buy it with intent to supply to said babies, require the sugar content to be reduced (and manufactured from UK grown sugar beet natch) and the imposition of minimum height requirements for shelves bearing it, yes, but they wouldn't actually take it.
  • antifrank said:

    DavidL said:

    I don't think the great British public are taking their politics very seriously at the moment. Maybe as about as seriously as our "top" politicians deserve though.

    A lot of this is Miliband's fault of course. He has lost half the SLAB vote to the SNP and now he seems to have lost a significant chunk of the dafty left vote (sorry Neil, no offence) to the Greens. Who can he lose next?

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    The fact that they are so obviously the most competent option despite all this nonsense really shows why the public have despaired and lent their votes all over the shop.

    Or Lord Ashcroft's polling is the greatest waste of money since Gordon Brown decided to increase public "investment". Hard to tell really.

    I worked out that Lord Ashcroft has spent £1.8million on marginal polls this parliament and close to £400,000 on National polling so far in this parliament.
    It's good to see the British services sector supported in this way.
    He's not finished yet.

    If he meets expectation he'll have spent close to £5million on polling this parliament.
    How much? :)
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    chestnut said:
    Except those three haven't opposed the Greens being included, and say it's the decision of the broadcasters. The only one running from the debates is Cameron.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    On the subject of serious polling, are we due a Jack's ARSE soon with his magical 10 seats?
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Cyclefree said:

    Brilliant.

    "We all have to speak out now. The time for qualification is over. We must rage against the fear. Scream ferociously “this will not stand”. That in 2015 we will not sit by whilst out neighbours feel scared to go to their shops, or take their children to school, or go to their place of worship. We need to say: “They came for the Jews. And I spoke out. Because I am not a Jew”. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11354927/They-are-still-coming-for-the-Jews.-So-why-is-nobody-speaking-out.html

    Yes - very good. What took him so long to realise this, though? There have been guards outside synagogues for the last decade. He need only have asked his mother - I'm talking about her constituency.

    The terrorists in Toulouse targeted a Jewish school; the ones in Mumbai targeted the only tiny synagogue there; the terrorists in Belgium last year also targeted Jews; some people here a few years ago were charged (and, I believe, convicted) of preparing attacks on Jewish targets in Manchester. There's been plenty of evidence - for those with eyes to see.
    Israel just murdered several Lebanese Hezbollah fighters.

    http://news.antiwar.com/2015/01/18/israeli-helicopter-attack-on-syria-kills-five-hezbollah-fighters/
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    DavidL said:

    By the way I predicted that the Ashcroft poll would have the major parties (I know, out of date terminology but historical references make it clear who I mean) would be within 1 per cent of each other. I am so rarely right that I thought I should draw attention to this.

    Can you guess the next party that is going to slump/jump 5% in the next Ashcroft poll?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,347
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    It looks like it is pretty hard to receive ~40-45% of the vote and not win something like two-thirds or three-quarters of the seats. That's FPTP. Tactical voting is difficult, because the prospective tactical voter can be misled by the result last time, when underlying support has shifted so much, into casting an ineffective tactical vote.

    The exception to this is, of course, when there are only two parties.

    Which is why I think the Conservatives may have missed a trick by not dissolving the Scottish branch of their party and relaunching the Unionist Party [of Scotland]. The only voting block larger than the SNPs "45%" is the Unionist "55%"...
    Un peu en retard for that little wheeze, sensible as it may be. Murdo Fraser tried that on the blue-rinses and young Tories of Scotland. He got the chop and Ruth Davidson got the leadership.

    They prefer a London sock puppet , means they cannot upset the applecart.
    II was just thinking some more about Oblitus's comment, in the light of the common Bavarian comparison which some wistful Tories on PB like to make, and am inclined to believe that it would only work when there is a true Federal system.

    The issue is, incidentally, also highly relevant to SLAB and what Mr Murphy appears to be trying to show, and what he will be allowed to do by Mr Miliband (not necessarily the same thing at all).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,123
    edited January 2015
    Simply averaging Populus and Ashcroft gives a Lab/Tory dead-heat - using ELBOW it's a 0.1% Lab lead.

    For the LibDems, they are 1.0% ahead of Greens on a simple average, but 2.4% ahead on ELBOW!
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Indigo said:

    With an MoE of 3% Greens at 11% might just as easily be Greens at 8%. The last time it was 6% that is also within MoE of 8%.

    Its all MoE stuff still, its just looks impressive on small parties.

    You still do not understand MofE Maths for opinion polling do you . The 3% MofE refers to a party polling around 40% . For a party polling at around 10% the MofE is around 1.2% much lower than 3% .
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited January 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's amazing - there is obviously a core group of people who are desperately seeking a radical left agenda. They thought the LDs would provide it only to be thwarted by reality and now they think that the Greens can provide it.

    Or rather, and more likely, they don't really care who gets in and are only interested in the moral satisfaction of not voting for "more of the same".

    Whether this is a legitimate action (of course it is) is one thing. Whether it furthers the development of participatory politics is another.

    Or the Greens have been in the news about 500% more than usual this week with the PM categorising them as the same as the Lib Dems and UKIP?
    And the effect in Populus of this publicity was to put their vote share down to 4% .
    Greens at 6% in today's Populus.
    4%
    http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/OmOnline_Vote_19-01-2015_BPC.pdf
    No idea how many green RESPOnDENTS to the poll there were though.

    Can someone ( @OblitusSumMe ??!) calculate it ?
    Well, the party ID weighting reduces the number of Green identifiers from 89 to 41. In table 2 (all respondents) the Greens have 54. So, if you assume that all of the 89 said they would vote Green, and that the other Green respondents to the poll were not significantly weighted, you would come up with a figure of 102 Green respondents.

    Excluding would not vote/don't know that would be just over 7% of the sample - so Ashcroft is still somehow finding many more Greens in his sample, consistent with the Ashcroft being an outlier with a randomly Green-heavy sample.
  • On the subject of serious polling, are we due a Jack's ARSE soon with his magical 10 seats?

    Some may mock Jack's ARSE, but it doesn't wobble about like Lord Ashcroft's.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    By the way I predicted that the Ashcroft poll would have the major parties (I know, out of date terminology but historical references make it clear who I mean) would be within 1 per cent of each other. I am so rarely right that I thought I should draw attention to this.

    Can you guess the next party that is going to slump/jump 5% in the next Ashcroft poll?
    So you think it was a fluke, right? So do I tbh.

    I note others are up 3 to 9. Given that most of the traditional others are now mainstream parties this seems fairly remarkable. I suspect the Scottish sub samples for this one are going to make the previous thread look a bit off.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    By the way I predicted that the Ashcroft poll would have the major parties (I know, out of date terminology but historical references make it clear who I mean) would be within 1 per cent of each other. I am so rarely right that I thought I should draw attention to this.

    Can you guess the next party that is going to slump/jump 5% in the next Ashcroft poll?
    Labour. Next week's poll will be:
    Con 33 +4
    Lab 23 -5
    LD 9 =
    UKIP 14 -1
    Grn 12 +1
    But somehow, EICIPM. You read it here first.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,704
    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    Or me. But every time I start to seriously reconsider voting Conservative the party and its supporters do everything possible to put me off.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    Here's the thing: let's say David Cameron came out with a rational policy on encryption and on civil liberties. The Daily Mail would crucify him: David Cameron is - to use SeanT's words - "a useful idiot" who isn't standing up against the terrorists.

    You know that's true, I know that's true. We all know that the vast majority of people think the government should be doing more to monitor internet communication to catch suspected terrorists. The fact that it is completely ineffectual is irrelevant to the debate.
    But they don't need to suddenly become Ron Paul. It's perfectly possible to give the Mail enough red meat (longer sentences for terrorists, closing down schools spreading down extremism etc) in a manner that's also rational.
    rcs1000 said:

    The fact is that the right has fissured in the UK, and it is split between social conservatives (and as a secondary, those who hate the EU), and social liberals. Paul_Mid_Beds, who I have enormous respect for, is a classic example of the kind of Conservative who has left because he regards the party as too socially liberal. TSE is a classic example of the kind of person who would leave if the party because socially conservative.

    But would TSE really leave if the Tories said they were demanding an emergency brake on EU immigration? Would he leave if they brought back the primary purpose rule? I don't think the Tories need to go out and campaign on an across the board socially conservative model. But they need to strike a balance, and they've failed to do that.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Neil said:

    BenM said:

    Ever so slightly feel that Ashcroft's polls are becoming the 2015 Angus Reid.

    Is he Canadian or has he ever been to Canada? We need to know.

    He's from Belize if that counts.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    The most startling thing about how well the Greens are doing is that they're doing this with a leader who makes Ed Miliband look sparkling with charisma. Just imagine how well they'd be doing if Caroline Lucas was still in charge.
  • FalseFlag said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Brilliant.

    "We all have to speak out now. The time for qualification is over. We must rage against the fear. Scream ferociously “this will not stand”. That in 2015 we will not sit by whilst out neighbours feel scared to go to their shops, or take their children to school, or go to their place of worship. We need to say: “They came for the Jews. And I spoke out. Because I am not a Jew”. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11354927/They-are-still-coming-for-the-Jews.-So-why-is-nobody-speaking-out.html

    Yes - very good. What took him so long to realise this, though? There have been guards outside synagogues for the last decade. He need only have asked his mother - I'm talking about her constituency.

    The terrorists in Toulouse targeted a Jewish school; the ones in Mumbai targeted the only tiny synagogue there; the terrorists in Belgium last year also targeted Jews; some people here a few years ago were charged (and, I believe, convicted) of preparing attacks on Jewish targets in Manchester. There's been plenty of evidence - for those with eyes to see.
    Israel just murdered several Lebanese Hezbollah fighters.

    http://news.antiwar.com/2015/01/18/israeli-helicopter-attack-on-syria-kills-five-hezbollah-fighters/
    Shia Hezbollah against Sunni I.S.?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    Or me. But every time I start to seriously reconsider voting Conservative the party and its supporters do everything possible to put me off.
    You should feel flattered by their attention though.
  • On the subject of serious polling, are we due a Jack's ARSE soon with his magical 10 seats?

    Some may mock Jack's ARSE, but it doesn't wobble about like Lord Ashcroft's.
    "Oh, you look nervous! Is it the ELBOWs? You wanna know how I got 'em?"
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Indigo said:

    With an MoE of 3% Greens at 11% might just as easily be Greens at 8%. The last time it was 6% that is also within MoE of 8%.

    Its all MoE stuff still, its just looks impressive on small parties.

    You still do not understand MofE Maths for opinion polling do you . The 3% MofE refers to a party polling around 40% . For a party polling at around 10% the MofE is around 1.2% much lower than 3% .
    That's the statistical MofE, which assumes we have a perfect sample with which to work. Which is clearly nonsense. MofE for opinion polling is a "polite fiction".
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Danny565 said:

    The most startling thing about how well the Greens are doing is that they're doing this with a leader who makes Ed Miliband look sparkling with charisma. Just imagine how well they'd be doing if Caroline Lucas was still in charge.

    My money would be on "no better at all".
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    Or me. But every time I start to seriously reconsider voting Conservative the party and its supporters do everything possible to put me off.
    Pass the Saxa..
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited January 2015

    Indigo said:

    With an MoE of 3% Greens at 11% might just as easily be Greens at 8%. The last time it was 6% that is also within MoE of 8%.

    Its all MoE stuff still, its just looks impressive on small parties.

    You still do not understand MofE Maths for opinion polling do you . The 3% MofE refers to a party polling around 40% . For a party polling at around 10% the MofE is around 1.2% much lower than 3% .
    What is the margin of error for a national poll with an end sample of 492 ?

    I can't understand why Lord A's national polls have a smaller sample that his individual constituency polls.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Looks like nonsense. It would be funny if it is accurate.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Neil said:

    Danny565 said:

    The most startling thing about how well the Greens are doing is that they're doing this with a leader who makes Ed Miliband look sparkling with charisma. Just imagine how well they'd be doing if Caroline Lucas was still in charge.

    My money would be on "no better at all".
    Really? She's a lot more media-savvy and likeable than Bennett imo.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    SKY News reporting on Lord Ashcroft's poll
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Danny565 said:

    Neil said:

    Danny565 said:

    The most startling thing about how well the Greens are doing is that they're doing this with a leader who makes Ed Miliband look sparkling with charisma. Just imagine how well they'd be doing if Caroline Lucas was still in charge.

    My money would be on "no better at all".
    Really? She's a lot more media-savvy and likeable than Bennett imo.
    Of course she is. That doesnt contradict what I said though.

  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's amazing - there is obviously a core group of people who are desperately seeking a radical left agenda. They thought the LDs would provide it only to be thwarted by reality and now they think that the Greens can provide it.

    Or rather, and more likely, they don't really care who gets in and are only interested in the moral satisfaction of not voting for "more of the same".

    Whether this is a legitimate action (of course it is) is one thing. Whether it furthers the development of participatory politics is another.

    Or the Greens have been in the news about 500% more than usual this week with the PM categorising them as the same as the Lib Dems and UKIP?
    And the effect in Populus of this publicity was to put their vote share down to 4% .
    Greens at 6% in today's Populus.
    4%
    http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/OmOnline_Vote_19-01-2015_BPC.pdf
    No idea how many green RESPOnDENTS to the poll there were though.

    Can someone ( @OblitusSumMe ??!) calculate it ?
    54 out of 2036?
    That's the weighted number - the unweighted isn't given. (Check the UKIP topline to see what I mean)
    Isn't the weighted number 43 (4%).?
    That's the turnout weighted number. But 54 is, itself a weighted number to demographics, past vote and party identification.
    We're talking Populus right? Table 2 seems to be the raw data (base 2,036). Table 3 is the weighted to turnout data (base 1,153).
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    FalseFlag said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Brilliant.

    "We all have to speak out now. The time for qualification is over. We must rage against the fear. Scream ferociously “this will not stand”. That in 2015 we will not sit by whilst out neighbours feel scared to go to their shops, or take their children to school, or go to their place of worship. We need to say: “They came for the Jews. And I spoke out. Because I am not a Jew”. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11354927/They-are-still-coming-for-the-Jews.-So-why-is-nobody-speaking-out.html

    Yes - very good. What took him so long to realise this, though? There have been guards outside synagogues for the last decade. He need only have asked his mother - I'm talking about her constituency.

    The terrorists in Toulouse targeted a Jewish school; the ones in Mumbai targeted the only tiny synagogue there; the terrorists in Belgium last year also targeted Jews; some people here a few years ago were charged (and, I believe, convicted) of preparing attacks on Jewish targets in Manchester. There's been plenty of evidence - for those with eyes to see.
    Israel just murdered several Lebanese Hezbollah fighters.

    http://news.antiwar.com/2015/01/18/israeli-helicopter-attack-on-syria-kills-five-hezbollah-fighters/
    And the link with the shooting of children in a school in France is what, exactly?

    Or were you just drawing my attention to the fact that there is a war in Syria where a lot of people are fighting, in case I wasn't aware?

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Indigo said:

    With an MoE of 3% Greens at 11% might just as easily be Greens at 8%. The last time it was 6% that is also within MoE of 8%.

    Its all MoE stuff still, its just looks impressive on small parties.

    You still do not understand MofE Maths for opinion polling do you . The 3% MofE refers to a party polling around 40% . For a party polling at around 10% the MofE is around 1.2% much lower than 3% .
    That's the statistical MofE, which assumes we have a perfect sample with which to work. Which is clearly nonsense. MofE for opinion polling is a "polite fiction".
    There is some truth in what you say , but it is clearly nonsense to say that the MofE in a poll is the same for a party polling at 5 or 10% than it is for a party polling 30% or 40% .
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,704
    edited January 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    I

    Here's the thing: let's say David Cameron came out with a rational policy on encryption and on civil liberties. The Daily Mail would crucify him: David Cameron is - to use SeanT's words - "a useful idiot" who isn't standing up against the terrorists.

    You know that's true, I know that's true. We all know that the vast majority of people think the government should be doing more to monitor internet communication to catch suspected terrorists. The fact that it is completely ineffectual is irrelevant to the debate.

    The fact is that the right has fissured in the UK, and it is split between social conservatives (and as a secondary, those who hate the EU), and social liberals. Paul_Mid_Beds, who I have enormous respect for, is a classic example of the kind of Conservative who has left because he regards the party as too socially liberal. TSE is a classic example of the kind of person who would leave if the party because socially conservative.

    I don't see the split as healing; perhaps the only way it 'might' is if the right wing of the Liberal Democrats (David Laws, Danny Alexander, Nick Clegg, etc.) and the socially liberal part off the Conservative Party were to merge. And if the left wing of the LibDems went off to join Labour (Vince, Farron, etc). In this way you'd lose one party out of the 4 (or maybe 5).

    I've met plenty of Conservative social liberals who are eurosceptic and in favour of controlled immigration. Civil liberties isn't an issue either as there is a lot of common ground on both wings.

    Where the main difference has tended to be in my experience is on traditional issues: capital punishment, corporal punishment, traditional no sex before marriage, no to any none nuclear family, repatriation, traditional CofE religion, lock 'em all up, pro-state survelliance, pro conscription, pro ID cards, and hard line on drugs. That's social conservatism IMHO.

    You can still find a lot of older Tories who agree with all of the latter, whereas I don't with any of it. Yet there'd be some posters on here who called me out for moving to the Right and associating me with the Monday Club purely because David Cameron hasn't kept his promises on Europe and immigration reform.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Neil said:

    Danny565 said:

    The most startling thing about how well the Greens are doing is that they're doing this with a leader who makes Ed Miliband look sparkling with charisma. Just imagine how well they'd be doing if Caroline Lucas was still in charge.

    My money would be on "no better at all".
    My money would be on "just as badly" still losing vote share in every council by election since last June .
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    SKY News reporting on Lord Ashcroft's poll
  • Speedy said:

    Indigo said:

    With an MoE of 3% Greens at 11% might just as easily be Greens at 8%. The last time it was 6% that is also within MoE of 8%.

    Its all MoE stuff still, its just looks impressive on small parties.

    You still do not understand MofE Maths for opinion polling do you . The 3% MofE refers to a party polling around 40% . For a party polling at around 10% the MofE is around 1.2% much lower than 3% .
    What is the margin of error for a national poll with an end sample of 492 ?

    I can't understand why Lord A's national polls have a smaller sample that his individual constituency polls.
    He had 20,011 for his mega-NHS poll! Fieldwork was in late November but only published last week. It explains the blip in my graph for week-ending 30th November :)
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited January 2015

    Neil said:

    Danny565 said:

    The most startling thing about how well the Greens are doing is that they're doing this with a leader who makes Ed Miliband look sparkling with charisma. Just imagine how well they'd be doing if Caroline Lucas was still in charge.

    My money would be on "no better at all".
    My money would be on "just as badly" still losing vote share in every council by election since last June .
    What's your record like when putting money on the Green party to fail? Have you spotted any particularly good value bets in that area?

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Speedy said:

    Indigo said:

    With an MoE of 3% Greens at 11% might just as easily be Greens at 8%. The last time it was 6% that is also within MoE of 8%.

    Its all MoE stuff still, its just looks impressive on small parties.

    You still do not understand MofE Maths for opinion polling do you . The 3% MofE refers to a party polling around 40% . For a party polling at around 10% the MofE is around 1.2% much lower than 3% .
    What is the margin of error for a national poll with an end sample of 492 ?

    I can't understand why Lord A's national polls have a smaller sample that his individual constituency polls.
    At what polling level ? The MofE for a sample size of say 500 v 1000 does not increase that much from around 3% to 3.5% for a party polling around 40%
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited January 2015
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    By the way I predicted that the Ashcroft poll would have the major parties (I know, out of date terminology but historical references make it clear who I mean) would be within 1 per cent of each other. I am so rarely right that I thought I should draw attention to this.

    Can you guess the next party that is going to slump/jump 5% in the next Ashcroft poll?
    So you think it was a fluke, right? So do I tbh.

    I note others are up 3 to 9. Given that most of the traditional others are now mainstream parties this seems fairly remarkable. I suspect the Scottish sub samples for this one are going to make the previous thread look a bit off.
    The weighted base is just 43 people, but for the sake of amusement, the Scottish sub-sample in today's Ashcroft is:

    SNP 58%
    Lab 24%
    Con 8%
    Lib 4%
    Grn 4%
    UKIP 1%

    Also, "Another party" are on 3% in England. Are the English Democrats poised to make a substantial advance?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,704
    Neil said:

    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    Or me. But every time I start to seriously reconsider voting Conservative the party and its supporters do everything possible to put me off.
    You should feel flattered by their attention though.
    It's not really about me. There's an election coming up in under 4 months time. If the Conservatives want to win, they should be fighting for every vote.

    They seem more interested in emoting their hatred for UKIP and 'punishing' those who had the temerity to abandon their party in the first place out of despair.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Todays LARGER (Lord Ashcroft Randomly Generated Election Results) EICIPM on 28%

    Not according to Paddy Power he isn't ..... no doubt you'll be putting your money where your mouth is.
    Indeed already balls deep in LAB most seats which i believe will result in EICIPM
    You could lose that bet and Ed could still be PM y'know ;p
    Or perhaps increasingly likely, both will fail to materialise.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Danny565 said:

    The most startling thing about how well the Greens are doing is that they're doing this with a leader who makes Ed Miliband look sparkling with charisma. Just imagine how well they'd be doing if Caroline Lucas was still in charge.

    My money would be on "no better at all".
    My money would be on "just as badly" still losing vote share in every council by election since last June .
    What's your record like when putting money on the Green party to fail? Have you spotted any particularly good value bets in that area?

    Have not lost any bets yet , I won money backing Lucas to win in 2010 based on my extensive local knowledge of the seat .
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    On the subject of serious polling, are we due a Jack's ARSE soon with his magical 10 seats?

    Next ARSE will be a week tomorrow together with the thirteen seats in the "JackW Dozen".

    From the end of February through to election day exclusive PB publication will move from fortnightly to twice weekly on Tuesday and Saturday.

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited January 2015

    Neil said:

    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    Or me. But every time I start to seriously reconsider voting Conservative the party and its supporters do everything possible to put me off.
    You should feel flattered by their attention though.
    It's not really about me. There's an election coming up in under 4 months time. If the Conservatives want to win, they should be fighting for every vote.

    They seem more interested in emoting their hatred for UKIP and 'punishing' those who had the temerity to abandon their party in the first place out of despair.
    You want the Tories to change for you. How many voters do you think they'd lose, for that gain?
  • SKY News reporting on Lord Ashcroft's poll

    Tory bias? :)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,629
    Socrates said:

    But would TSE really leave if the Tories said they were demanding an emergency brake on EU immigration? Would he leave if they brought back the primary purpose rule? I don't think the Tories need to go out and campaign on an across the board socially conservative model. But they need to strike a balance, and they've failed to do that.

    You have said in the past that you believe the UK should stick by its treaty commitments. We are committed to maintaining free movement of labour across the EU by our treaties.

    We can - of course - renegotiate or leave (or make the UK a less attractive place to EU immigrants), but to deliberately breach a treaty commitment that was sanctified by referendum would be an astonishing act.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Pulpstar said:

    Todays LARGER (Lord Ashcroft Randomly Generated Election Results) EICIPM on 28%

    Not according to Paddy Power he isn't ..... no doubt you'll be putting your money where your mouth is.
    Indeed already balls deep in LAB most seats which i believe will result in EICIPM
    You could lose that bet and Ed could still be PM y'know ;p
    Or perhaps increasingly likely, both will fail to materialise.
    Weren't you advising a "sell" of Conservative seats at 270 odd on the spreads or was that someone else.
    Am I thinking of someone else or do you change your mind from poll to poll ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    Neil said:

    Socrates said:

    DavidL said:

    The tories are frankly pretty unappealing at the moment. They have developed a range of distinctive non coalition policies that do absolutely nothing for centre right tories like me but still manage to hack off the Kippers at the same time. So we have yet more bribes for rich pensioners with savings to invest, we have promises of tax cuts with no credibility, we have a seriously incoherent internet security policy that I really can't make head nor tail of and we have a party promising to tear itself in 2 within 18 months of the election to argue about the EU (again).

    It really shouldn't be hard to forge a policy platform that can attract TSE and Sean Fear. But the Tories can't seem to do it. How's that for "competency"? Also see May's bungling at the Home Office.

    Or me. But every time I start to seriously reconsider voting Conservative the party and its supporters do everything possible to put me off.
    You should feel flattered by their attention though.
    It's not really about me. There's an election coming up in under 4 months time. If the Conservatives want to win, they should be fighting for every vote.

    They seem more interested in emoting their hatred for UKIP and 'punishing' those who had the temerity to abandon their party in the first place out of despair.
    You want the Tories to change for you. How many voters do you think they'd lose, for that gain?
    That's not an unreasonable point, but it feels like it could be turned around as well - how many votes have their gained from their current course to make up for the one's they have lost from it? Nowhere near enough it seems. If they had, there would not still be this debate in the Tories about their current path being correct, and why they still appear riven with infighting and indecision, and hence why half the party still seem to be holding out hope they can become UKIP even as UKIP tack left and despise them.
This discussion has been closed.