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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Pricing in the Ed factor – a negative for Labour but how bi

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited January 2015 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Pricing in the Ed factor – a negative for Labour but how big a negative?

It is said that a key strategy of the Tories in the coming months will be to constantly remind voters that Ed Miliband is LAB leader and that if the party did win the election then he could end up as PM. I am sure that that is the right approach.

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Comments

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited January 2015
    First! And why is Ed making a "wanker" gesture at Andrew Marr?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    GeoffM said:

    First! And why is Ed making a "wanker" gesture at Andrew Marr?

    He's met him?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    FT headline: house prices in Tory constituencies rise eight times faster than in Labour.

    This might mean the electorate has two different sets of facts on the economy.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    FT headline: house prices in Tory constituencies rise eight times faster than in Labour.

    This might mean the electorate has two different sets of facts on the economy.

    And that nobody wants to live in a Labour shithole.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Martin Ødegaard will definitely not vote for Ed Miliband.
    That's a good enough non-endorsement for me.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Good balanced view from Sajid Javid on situation in France
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2905372/It-lazy-claim-Paris-terror-attacks-Islam-British-Muslims-need-tackle-extremism-says-minister.html
    The sort of statesman-like performance that marks him as a front runner for Cameron's job if it becomes free after May.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Apparently it's been said on PB that :

    Ed Miliband Will Never Be Prime Minister

    This view may be seen as something of a negative but just how big and for who ?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    JackW said:

    Apparently it's been said on PB that :

    Ed Miliband Will Never Be Prime Minister

    This view may be seen as something of a negative but just how big and for who ?

    So I have heard, although often with a pejorative used in place of the surname!
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Indigo said:

    JackW said:

    Apparently it's been said on PB that :

    Ed Miliband Will Never Be Prime Minister

    This view may be seen as something of a negative but just how big and for who ?

    So I have heard, although often with a pejorative used in place of the surname!
    Je Suis Ed Miliband ?

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    I refer hon contributors here to my comment last night. No doubt ED is a drag and people do funny things in polling booths. They go in and suddenly decide that they just cannot vote for X and vote for Y instead. I think ED is so awful that this cannot be discounted. Its more likely to end up in people not voting Labour rather than switching, but who really knows?

    There is always the possibility of events dear boy events.. We live in interesting times.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest ARSE 2015 General Election & "JackW Dozen" Projection Countdown :

    25 hours 35 minutes 45 seconds
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016
    I am aware that we always have to be cautious and recognise that many of the electorate do not pay as much attention to the finer nuances of politics as we do on this site but are we really saying that there are material numbers of voters who don't know that Ed Miliband is the Labour leader?

    It seems to me the default assumption that the negative Ed factor is already priced in to current polling. It also seems to me that his ratings are so low that there is not much room for a further negative movement. It is possible that the salience of his uselessness will increase and it will make more natural Labour votes hesitate but it is far from certain.

    The Tories' polling position is increasingly grim. With the biases in the system against them they need a larger lead than Labour does (if not as large a lead as they needed for a majority the last time). There is no sign of them getting that. They can hope that Labour resumes it decline after the Christmas blip but at the moment that is only a hope. Time is running out.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    The non-die-hards will think twice before voting in favour of Labour’s greatest weakness.

    O/T

    A very impressive and deeply moving turnout in France yesterday - whatever the intentions of the murderous scum who committed these recent atrocities was, I don’t think bringing Palestinian and Israelis leaders together was it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016
    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    DavidL said:

    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.

    All sorts of jokes spring to mind about him being behind Frau Merkel...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Cameron has been very lucky in his Labour opponents. Without a dead weight like Miliband, he'd have no chance.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    DavidL said:

    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.

    Unless the video feed came from a French broadcaster who'd pointed the camera at President Hollande (and anyone who happened to be standing near him, which did not include David Cameron).
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    The YouGov charts provide some indication as to how the public react to seeing Cameron and Miliband of the telly. Consider the party conference season, which appears approximately above data point 185 in the chart below.

    Labour saw a fall in support following their conference, whereas the Tories saw a brief boost.

    Whether this will be replicated as the election nears, and the leaders are regularly on the telly, remains to be seen.

    http://www.mediafire.com/view/6wu2aveq6t6v355/YouGov polls 12 months to 11 January 2015.jpg#
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015

    Cameron has been very lucky in his Labour opponents. Without a dead weight like Miliband, he'd have no chance.

    I wouldn't say the Tory front bench is overflowing with talent, but for Labour its more the total lack of talent on their front bench, which is a problem for them on its own terms, but also means no one was able think of anyone that would be less of a disaster than Miliband, and actually wanted the job - anyone with even a modicum of talent took a step back when asked.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016

    DavidL said:

    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.

    Unless the video feed came from a French broadcaster who'd pointed the camera at President Hollande (and anyone who happened to be standing near him, which did not include David Cameron).
    It was really not that hard. Even the Guardian managed: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/11/world-leaders-in-paris-whos-who
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Gadfly said:

    The YouGov charts provide some indication as to how the public react to seeing Cameron and Miliband of the telly. Consider the party conference season, which appears approximately above data point 185 in the chart below.

    Labour saw a fall in support following their conference, whereas the Tories saw a brief boost.

    Whether this will be replicated as the election nears, and the leaders are regularly on the telly, remains to be seen.

    http://www.mediafire.com/view/6wu2aveq6t6v355/YouGov polls 12 months to 11 January 2015.jpg#

    I think there might be something in that, the wild card will be that the Kippers will be all over the TV as well, especially now OFCOM has given them equal billing. UKIP seems to do well when Nige is on the TV, and fall back when he isn't, if the coverage eases UKIP up to say 20%, the big question is does he steal those 2-3% from Dave or Ed.
  • DavidL said:

    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.

    I was surprised he attended, since the Greens weren't invited.

    (Sorry David, but he's wide open to persistent teasing on that one. He should do his about turn quickly, before it gets too difficult!)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,709

    DavidL said:

    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.

    I was surprised he attended, since the Greens weren't invited.

    (Sorry David, but he's wide open to persistent teasing on that one. He should do his about turn quickly, before it gets too difficult!)
    He did look a bit Billy-no-mates as he arrived.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466
    edited January 2015
    <error
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.

    Unless the video feed came from a French broadcaster who'd pointed the camera at President Hollande (and anyone who happened to be standing near him, which did not include David Cameron).
    It was really not that hard. Even the Guardian managed: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/11/world-leaders-in-paris-whos-who
    Actually that's a pretty good picture, David.

    I see he managed to squeeze in next to the rather nice looking Leader from Denmark. Poor Francois got stuck between Frau Merkel and Bill Cosby.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    5000 troops protecting Jewish schools in France.

    Coulibaly "undoubtedly had an accomplice"
    http://www.straitstimes.com/news/world/europe/story/paris-shooting-1-the-gunmen-undoubtedly-had-accomplice-says-french-pm-201501
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,536

    Cameron has been very lucky in his Labour opponents. Without a dead weight like Miliband, he'd have no chance.

    Fortunately, Labour doesn't have an alternative who'd obviously do better than Ed Milliband.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @ScottyNational: Entertainment news:Anger as English actors get more Golden Globes than Scottish actors get.FM 'It's a clear breach of the Barnett Formula '
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.

    Unless the video feed came from a French broadcaster who'd pointed the camera at President Hollande (and anyone who happened to be standing near him, which did not include David Cameron).
    It was really not that hard. Even the Guardian managed: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/11/world-leaders-in-paris-whos-who
    Actually that's a pretty good picture, David.

    I see he managed to squeeze in next to the rather nice looking Leader from Denmark. Poor Francois got stuck between Frau Merkel and Bill Cosby.
    It was the striking Ms Helle Thorning-Schmidt that he was taking selfies with at Mandela's funeral.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/10/nelson-mandela-world-leaders-selfie
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,709
    Indigo said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.

    Unless the video feed came from a French broadcaster who'd pointed the camera at President Hollande (and anyone who happened to be standing near him, which did not include David Cameron).
    It was really not that hard. Even the Guardian managed: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/11/world-leaders-in-paris-whos-who
    Actually that's a pretty good picture, David.

    I see he managed to squeeze in next to the rather nice looking Leader from Denmark. Poor Francois got stuck between Frau Merkel and Bill Cosby.
    It was the striking Ms Helle Thorning-Schmidt that he was taking selfies with at Mandela's funeral.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/10/nelson-mandela-world-leaders-selfie
    Neil Kinnock’s daughter-in-law isn’t she?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Scott_P said:

    @ScottyNational: Entertainment news:Anger as English actors get more Golden Globes than Scottish actors get.FM 'It's a clear breach of the Barnett Formula '

    The new Studio Scottish opens in 2017, then they will be able to start making new episodes of Take The High Road, rather than showing all those old repeats on STV :D

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    BBC reporting that schools in the ethnic banlieus around Paris refused to participate in the one minute's silence or had the silences interrupted by students.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Sean_F said:

    Cameron has been very lucky in his Labour opponents. Without a dead weight like Miliband, he'd have no chance.

    Fortunately, Labour doesn't have an alternative who'd obviously do better than Ed Milliband.

    Labour are a dead party walking really. No talent, no real ideology, no new ideas, no loyal base.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    edited January 2015
    David

    "I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824"

    Would you suggest photocopying him into a more central position or should they have made the picture so wide that none of the leaders were identifiable? Anyway as has been said Cameron was nicely placed next to Mrs Kinnock
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015
    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cameron has been very lucky in his Labour opponents. Without a dead weight like Miliband, he'd have no chance.

    Fortunately, Labour doesn't have an alternative who'd obviously do better than Ed Milliband.

    Labour are a dead party walking really. No talent, no real ideology, no new ideas, no loyal base.
    ... and will probably "win" the election, for some value of the word "win". I do however anticipate a second election fairly soon, a year might be optimistic, maybe around 18 months in. They will fudge the cuts the first year, the second year they won't be able to ignore them, then getting them past the Member for Bolsover and his colleagues with a wafer thin majority, whilst being rubbished by the unions, who will probably take their ball away and set up a new party, is going to be more than they can sustain.

    47 Labour MPs voted against a cut in single parent benefit in 1997, with Blair at the height of his powers, how many are going to vote against £100bn of austerity with Ed Miliband.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Socrates said:

    Labour are a dead party walking really. No talent, no real ideology, no new ideas, no loyal base.

    @MrHarryCole: Only 'staggering' thing here is the fact Chris Leslie appears to be the chief Labour attack dog for this election http://t.co/Bm1EAnGMhH?

    @MrHarryCole: Quick Chris Leslie career recap. Lost his seat in 2005 so ran Brown's dire 'coronation'. Well qualified the front 2015 election for Labour.

    @MrHarryCole: Leslie went on to campaign for Ed Balls for leader, putting David Miliband #2. He then failed to qualify in the 2010 shad cab election.

    @MrHarryCole: Letting Leslie front the campaign is more Continuity 2010. He's married to Gordon's ex-SpAd, ran Gordon4Leader and worships Balls.
  • Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cameron has been very lucky in his Labour opponents. Without a dead weight like Miliband, he'd have no chance.

    Fortunately, Labour doesn't have an alternative who'd obviously do better than Ed Milliband.

    Labour are a dead party walking really. No talent, no real ideology, no new ideas, no loyal base.
    That may well be true - but it is not, unfortunately, necessarily an impediment to them gaining and exercising power (badly). FPTP / boundaries don't work in 4 party politics - and we're going to experience some electoral outcome howlers.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cameron has been very lucky in his Labour opponents. Without a dead weight like Miliband, he'd have no chance.

    Fortunately, Labour doesn't have an alternative who'd obviously do better than Ed Milliband.

    Labour are a dead party walking really. No talent, no real ideology, no new ideas, no loyal base.
    The great British public are experts in getting the general election results they want. In the case of GE2015, it feels like they want both main parties to lose.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.

    Unless the video feed came from a French broadcaster who'd pointed the camera at President Hollande (and anyone who happened to be standing near him, which did not include David Cameron).
    It was really not that hard. Even the Guardian managed: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/11/world-leaders-in-paris-whos-who
    The BBC pic is not a photo but the opening frame of a video, doubtless supplied by the French. If you have a point, it is that the BBC should have supplied a separate photograph showing our Prime Minister, but the video would still not show David Cameron.
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited January 2015
    Mike, another way to ask this, or look at it, is to look at how liability leaders have fared in actual General Elections. With polling data that's actually quantifiable. The point here, at least the one which Conservatives will be pinning our hopes on, is that when proverbial push comes to shove, when the time comes finally to decide, people will ask 'can I see this man being our Prime Minister?' Compared to David Cameron who looks statesmanlike the answer will be a resounding 'No' for many people. This is how Neil Kinnock was finally skewered in 1992.

    Let's look at it another way. I cannot think of a single liability leader who has been elected PM:

    Gordon Brown (nightmare)
    IDS (booted out by the Tories before the electorate could do it, Bald*)
    Michael Howard (although I rather liked him he was a LL)
    William Hague (actually very capable, but bald and in the right job at the wrong time)
    John Major by 1997 was looking out of his depth
    Neil Kinnock
    Michael Foot

    How does EdM rate compared to these? Well, again, this is quantifiable by polling. He is the worst leader since Michael Foot, and probably worse than him. Only 13% of the electorate can see him as Prime Minister. This, I think, is fatal for Labour http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/blow-for-ed-miliband-as-poll-reveals-just-13-per-cent-think-he-could-be-pm-9855880.html

    Mike you posted a thread three weeks ago in which you showed Mrs T's ratings, and suggested that the Tories are too reliant on this: http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/category/leader-approval-ratings/

    But you have to remember, crucially, that Britain was taking a leap with her: the late 70's were still not a time of mass emancipation and it took time before a lot of male voters (and actually female too) were prepared to put their trust in a woman Prime Minister.

    So, Ed Miliband: can Labour win with such a liability leader? No.



    *The bald comment is meant light-heartedly but the electorate tend not to favour them.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,124
    Socrates said:

    BBC reporting that schools in the ethnic banlieus around Paris refused to participate in the one minute's silence or had the silences interrupted by students.

    An example of free speech?
  • I see all those moaning about anti Tory bias have been rewarded with an 'Ed is crap' thread.

    I thought the lesson of the week was that extremists and fundamentalists should not be pandered to.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,124

    Mike, another way to ask this, or look at it, is to look at how liability leaders have fared in actual General Elections. With polling data that's actually quantifiable. The point here, at least the one which Conservatives will be pinning our hopes on, is that when proverbial push comes to shove, when the time comes finally to decide, people will ask 'can I see this man being our Prime Minister?' Compared to David Cameron who looks statesmanlike the answer will be a resounding 'No' for many people. This is how Neil Kinnock was finally skewered in 1992.

    Let's look at it another way. I cannot think of a single liability leader who has been elected PM:

    Gordon Brown (nightmare)
    IDS (booted out by the Tories before the electorate could do it, Bald*)
    Michael Howard (although I rather liked him he was a LL)
    William Hague (actually very capable, but bald and in the right job at the wrong time)
    John Major by 1997 was looking out of his depth
    Neil Kinnock
    Michael Foot

    How does EdM rate compared to these? Well, again, this is quantifiable by polling. He is the worst leader since Michael Foot, and probably worse than him. Only 13% of the electorate can see him as Prime Minister. This, I think, is fatal for Labour http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/blow-for-ed-miliband-as-poll-reveals-just-13-per-cent-think-he-could-be-pm-9855880.html

    Mike you posted a thread three weeks ago in which you showed Mrs T's ratings, and suggested that the Tories are too reliant on this: http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/category/leader-approval-ratings/

    But you have to remember, crucially, that Britain was taking a leap with her: the late 70's were still not a time of mass emancipation and it took time before a lot of male voters (and actually female too) were prepared to put their trust in a woman Prime Minister.

    So, Ed Miliband: can Labour win with such a liability leader? No.



    *The bald comment is meant light-heartedly but the electorate tend not to favour them.

    What about Ted Heath? Widely see as poor compared to the wit and slickness of Wilson, yet he won a surprise victory in 1970.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    GeoffM said:

    FT headline: house prices in Tory constituencies rise eight times faster than in Labour.

    This might mean the electorate has two different sets of facts on the economy.

    And that nobody wants to live in a Labour shithole.
    Unfortunately Geoff great swathes of the public have no option, hence Tories languishing as they only help their chums. They do not seem able to get beyond that.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Socrates said:

    BBC reporting that schools in the ethnic banlieus around Paris refused to participate in the one minute's silence or had the silences interrupted by students.

    An example of free speech?
    Of course. Like most people have been saying though, you should have a right to say whatever you want, and people should have a right to draw whatever conclusions they want from what you have said, and to respond accordingly.

    People are going to draw conclusions from people deliberately interrupting a memorial which they had been specifically asked not to interrupt, at the very least it will be interpreted as a political statement.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    DavidL said:

    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.

    Unless the video feed came from a French broadcaster who'd pointed the camera at President Hollande (and anyone who happened to be standing near him, which did not include David Cameron).
    He was with the minnows
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,536

    Socrates said:

    BBC reporting that schools in the ethnic banlieus around Paris refused to participate in the one minute's silence or had the silences interrupted by students.

    An example of free speech?
    That is their right, and it is our right to criticise them for it.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Mike, another way to ask this, or look at it, is to look at how liability leaders have fared in actual General Elections. With polling data that's actually quantifiable. The point here, at least the one which Conservatives will be pinning our hopes on, is that when proverbial push comes to shove, when the time comes finally to decide, people will ask 'can I see this man being our Prime Minister?' Compared to David Cameron who looks statesmanlike the answer will be a resounding 'No' for many people. This is how Neil Kinnock was finally skewered in 1992.

    Let's look at it another way. I cannot think of a single liability leader who has been elected PM:

    Gordon Brown (nightmare)
    IDS (booted out by the Tories before the electorate could do it, Bald*)
    Michael Howard (although I rather liked him he was a LL)
    William Hague (actually very capable, but bald and in the right job at the wrong time)
    John Major by 1997 was looking out of his depth
    Neil Kinnock
    Michael Foot

    How does EdM rate compared to these? Well, again, this is quantifiable by polling. He is the worst leader since Michael Foot, and probably worse than him. Only 13% of the electorate can see him as Prime Minister. This, I think, is fatal for Labour http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/blow-for-ed-miliband-as-poll-reveals-just-13-per-cent-think-he-could-be-pm-9855880.html

    Mike you posted a thread three weeks ago in which you showed Mrs T's ratings, and suggested that the Tories are too reliant on this: http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/category/leader-approval-ratings/

    But you have to remember, crucially, that Britain was taking a leap with her: the late 70's were still not a time of mass emancipation and it took time before a lot of male voters (and actually female too) were prepared to put their trust in a woman Prime Minister.

    So, Ed Miliband: can Labour win with such a liability leader? No.



    *The bald comment is meant light-heartedly but the electorate tend not to favour them.

    "Elected Prime Minister" isn't the right yardstick under FTPT. For example, if Ed Miliband gets Neil Kinnock's voteshare he probably gets to be PM. The right thing to do here is probably to look at leadership ratings at this point in the cycle, then look at the _change_ in the party's polling position during the campaign. That would help us work out if the liability that we're assuming (probably correctly) is already priced into the Labour vote share, or if it's yet to make itself felt fully.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,891
    Audreyanne Rottenborough Heath did win in 1970, but Wilson beat Heath in 1966 and twice in 1974. Major did beat Kinnock in 1992 but lost to Blair in 1997.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015

    Mike, another way to ask this, or look at it, is to look at how liability leaders have fared in actual General Elections. With polling data that's actually quantifiable. The point here, at least the one which Conservatives will be pinning our hopes on, is that when proverbial push comes to shove, when the time comes finally to decide, people will ask 'can I see this man being our Prime Minister?' Compared to David Cameron who looks statesmanlike the answer will be a resounding 'No' for many people. This is how Neil Kinnock was finally skewered in 1992.

    Let's look at it another way. I cannot think of a single liability leader who has been elected PM:

    Gordon Brown (nightmare)
    IDS (booted out by the Tories before the electorate could do it, Bald*)
    Michael Howard (although I rather liked him he was a LL)
    William Hague (actually very capable, but bald and in the right job at the wrong time)
    John Major by 1997 was looking out of his depth
    Neil Kinnock
    Michael Foot

    How does EdM rate compared to these? Well, again, this is quantifiable by polling. He is the worst leader since Michael Foot, and probably worse than him. Only 13% of the electorate can see him as Prime Minister. This, I think, is fatal for Labour http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/blow-for-ed-miliband-as-poll-reveals-just-13-per-cent-think-he-could-be-pm-9855880.html

    Mike you posted a thread three weeks ago in which you showed Mrs T's ratings, and suggested that the Tories are too reliant on this: http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/category/leader-approval-ratings/

    But you have to remember, crucially, that Britain was taking a leap with her: the late 70's were still not a time of mass emancipation and it took time before a lot of male voters (and actually female too) were prepared to put their trust in a woman Prime Minister.

    So, Ed Miliband: can Labour win with such a liability leader? No.



    *The bald comment is meant light-heartedly but the electorate tend not to favour them.

    What about Ted Heath? Widely see as poor compared to the wit and slickness of Wilson, yet he won a surprise victory in 1970.
    Wilson had the traditional Labour problem, he had made a mess of the economy by trying to buck the market that felt the pound was overvalued, he had to devalue anyway and got tagged forever more a "the party of devaluation", and the defense had cost a fortune so he was having to make a lot of unpopular austerity measures.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Indigo said:

    Scott_P said:

    @ScottyNational: Entertainment news:Anger as English actors get more Golden Globes than Scottish actors get.FM 'It's a clear breach of the Barnett Formula '

    The new Studio Scottish opens in 2017, then they will be able to start making new episodes of Take The High Road, rather than showing all those old repeats on STV :D

    We can only wish , compared to the torpid soaps on ITV and BBC London it was a gem.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited January 2015

    I see all those moaning about anti Tory bias have been rewarded with an 'Ed is crap' thread.

    I thought the lesson of the week was that extremists and fundamentalists should not be pandered to.

    Yes... that's why the majority of people ignore the SNP.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Mike, another way to ask this, or look at it, is to look at how liability leaders have fared in actual General Elections. With polling data that's actually quantifiable. The point here, at least the one which Conservatives will be pinning our hopes on, is that when proverbial push comes to shove, when the time comes finally to decide, people will ask 'can I see this man being our Prime Minister?' Compared to David Cameron who looks statesmanlike the answer will be a resounding 'No' for many people. This is how Neil Kinnock was finally skewered in 1992.

    Let's look at it another way. I cannot think of a single liability leader who has been elected PM:

    Gordon Brown (nightmare)
    IDS (booted out by the Tories before the electorate could do it, Bald*)
    Michael Howard (although I rather liked him he was a LL)
    William Hague (actually very capable, but bald and in the right job at the wrong time)
    John Major by 1997 was looking out of his depth
    Neil Kinnock
    Michael Foot

    How does EdM rate compared to these? Well, again, this is quantifiable by polling. He is the worst leader since Michael Foot, and probably worse than him. Only 13% of the electorate can see him as Prime Minister. This, I think, is fatal for Labour http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/blow-for-ed-miliband-as-poll-reveals-just-13-per-cent-think-he-could-be-pm-9855880.html

    Mike you posted a thread three weeks ago in which you showed Mrs T's ratings, and suggested that the Tories are too reliant on this: http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/category/leader-approval-ratings/

    But you have to remember, crucially, that Britain was taking a leap with her: the late 70's were still not a time of mass emancipation and it took time before a lot of male voters (and actually female too) were prepared to put their trust in a woman Prime Minister.

    So, Ed Miliband: can Labour win with such a liability leader? No.



    *The bald comment is meant light-heartedly but the electorate tend not to favour them.

    What about Ted Heath? Widely see as poor compared to the wit and slickness of Wilson, yet he won a surprise victory in 1970.
    The argument has no content at all, it defines leaders ex post facto as liabilities because they lost. And Sheffield 1992 was a glorious political joke but no serious commentator thinks it swung the election.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    I see all those moaning about anti Tory bias have been rewarded with an 'Ed is crap' thread.

    I thought the lesson of the week was that extremists and fundamentalists should not be pandered to.

    Yes... that's why the majority of people ignore the SNP.
    First dummy of the day award to the sad , bitter twisted Little Englander's whines
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    malcolmg said:

    I see all those moaning about anti Tory bias have been rewarded with an 'Ed is crap' thread.

    I thought the lesson of the week was that extremists and fundamentalists should not be pandered to.

    Yes... that's why the majority of people ignore the SNP.
    First dummy of the day award to the sad , bitter twisted Little Englander's whines
    Trust you to spit out your dummy ..Malcolm.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,567
    edited January 2015
    DavidL said:

    I am aware that we always have to be cautious and recognise that many of the electorate do not pay as much attention to the finer nuances of politics as we do on this site but are we really saying that there are material numbers of voters who don't know that Ed Miliband is the Labour leader?

    It seems to me the default assumption that the negative Ed factor is already priced in to current polling. It also seems to me that his ratings are so low that there is not much room for a further negative movement. It is possible that the salience of his uselessness will increase and it will make more natural Labour votes hesitate but it is far from certain.

    The Tories' polling position is increasingly grim. With the biases in the system against them they need a larger lead than Labour does (if not as large a lead as they needed for a majority the last time). There is no sign of them getting that. They can hope that Labour resumes it decline after the Christmas blip but at the moment that is only a hope. Time is running out.

    I always thought the "not Gordon Brown" factor was not the major issue that the Tories hoped in 2010 - it was really more that everyone including the Labour candidates could see that the party was worn down after 13 years in government - and obviously the recession didn't help. At the moment, the question of leaders is barely coming up on the doorstep, and when it does it's mostly as a reinforcement argument by people who've canvassed as Tory before, in the same way that people who've always voted Labour will say "We've got to get Labour back before the Tories wreck the NHS". Both parties really need swing issues that persuade people to switch, and neither leader is hated or feared, so it's not doing that.

    The big factor that's unusual in this election is that UKIP and the SNP have snaffled most of the floating voters who don't think in left-right terms, including some soft Labour and rather more soft Tories. That leaves the enthusiastic party faithful for the big parties (who are still quite numerous, despite what Socrates thinks) and the Red Liberals, who are faithful to the idea rather than the party. There really isn't much more happening than that.
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited January 2015


    "Elected Prime Minister" isn't the right yardstick under FTPT
    Yes but my point is that a significant enough number of people will shy away from him when it matters, and Ed M isn't even over the finishing line at the moment before that happens.


    What about Ted Heath? Widely see as poor compared to the wit and slickness of Wilson, yet he won a surprise victory in 1970.
    I was going to go back yet further into the depths of time but decided to draw the line at 1979. Ted Heath 45 years ago is an interesting case. I'm not sure in 1969 he was seen as that much of a liability. I don't think he was particularly liked (28%) but that's not quite the same as being judged competent. He was seen as a liability by 1974, and the electorate gave him the boot.

    By the way, remarkably, I can remember people in the 1980's still lamenting Ted Heath's defenestration. Those making such comments were usually middle-aged white men. Despite a fairly disastrous tenure he was still held in respect by some.

    It's also the reverse position. In 1970 Heath was proposing to curb union and strike laws, and to lower taxation against Wilson's high tax, union-driven, devaluation and 'beer & sandwiches' politics in No.10. Heath may not have been popular but for a lot of people Wilson's Labour stank.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    Socrates

    "BBC reporting that schools in the ethnic banlieus around Paris refused to participate in the one minute's silence or had the silences interrupted by students. "

    Schools open on Sunday? Were they cheder classes?
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    DavidL said:

    I am aware that we always have to be cautious and recognise that many of the electorate do not pay as much attention to the finer nuances of politics as we do on this site but are we really saying that there are material numbers of voters who don't know that Ed Miliband is the Labour leader?

    It seems to me the default assumption that the negative Ed factor is already priced in to current polling. It also seems to me that his ratings are so low that there is not much room for a further negative movement. It is possible that the salience of his uselessness will increase and it will make more natural Labour votes hesitate but it is far from certain.

    The Tories' polling position is increasingly grim. With the biases in the system against them they need a larger lead than Labour does (if not as large a lead as they needed for a majority the last time). There is no sign of them getting that. They can hope that Labour resumes it decline after the Christmas blip but at the moment that is only a hope. Time is running out.

    The prompting effect does not depend on telling people something they didn't already know. In theory if you ask a sample all of whom know who ed is you still get a different answer to "would you vote for the labour party" and "would you vote for the labour party, led by ed m?"
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    BBC reporting that schools in the ethnic banlieus around Paris refused to participate in the one minute's silence or had the silences interrupted by students.

    An example of free speech?
    That is their right, and it is our right to criticise them for it.

    Incidentally, Sean, saw your post last night. I agree with you. I was pointing out the hypocrisy and moral cowardice of some on the Left.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    edited January 2015
    Roger,

    "Schools open on Sunday?"

    You'll never make a scientist. Making assumptions on insufficient data?

    One minute silences aren't restricted to Sundays. It could be (hypothesis) that the kids didn't approve of the cartoons and cartoonists.

    Some left wingers didn't approve of their politics either - they were too left wing.
  • I see all those moaning about anti Tory bias have been rewarded with an 'Ed is crap' thread.

    I thought the lesson of the week was that extremists and fundamentalists should not be pandered to.

    Yes... that's why the majority of people ignore the SNP.
    The PB equivalent of 'your mum smells'. I would expect nothing less (or more) from you.

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015
    Roger said:

    Socrates

    "BBC reporting that schools in the ethnic banlieus around Paris refused to participate in the one minute's silence or had the silences interrupted by students. "

    Schools open on Sunday? Were they cheder classes?

    The one minute silence was on Thursday. I believe Hollande requested it in his first press conference the morning after the attack.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited January 2015
    One of the best comments I heard over the weekend on the whole shebang over the weekend was from Maajiz Nawad

    "No people should be below dignity & no idea above scrutiny"
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I try not to indulge in BBC bashing but how many other national broadcasters would have a picture of world leaders leading the march yesterday without their own leader in it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30765824

    Really quite eccentric.

    Unless the video feed came from a French broadcaster who'd pointed the camera at President Hollande (and anyone who happened to be standing near him, which did not include David Cameron).
    It was really not that hard. Even the Guardian managed: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/11/world-leaders-in-paris-whos-who
    Was the purpose of going to the march was to get photographed? The only clip I saw was of Netanyahu plus Abbas and Sarkozy hogging the frame with Hollande. However to play this sick little game - The Guardian image puts Cameron on the fringe but another photo puts him more central.
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/189785#.VLOT0FV1-uY
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Roger said:

    Socrates

    "BBC reporting that schools in the ethnic banlieus around Paris refused to participate in the one minute's silence or had the silences interrupted by students. "

    Schools open on Sunday? Were they cheder classes?

    Because they can't have been muslim, because the sacredness of Sunday is such a fundamental tenet of Islam?

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I admire Cyclefree's attempts to come up with some concrete proposals for what should come next. It's far more helpful than writing general posts about how wicked other people are.

    I agree with some of her suggestions, disagree with others. Here are my thoughts in two parts:

    1. Curtail immigration from countries with terrorist/extremist issues, principally in Britain's case, Pakistan, Somalia etc and reintroduction of the primary purpose rule.

    All well and good, but what about refugees? I recall getting a lot of grief for suggesting that Syria's refugee crisis was best dealt with on the ground around Christmas 2013. Refugees are particularly likely to come from countries with terrorism and extremism.

    2. Limitations on foreign imams in mosques here.

    I'd suggest that selectivity was more helpful than blanket limitations.

    3. No Islamic schools which do not follow the national curriculum in full.

    Yes. 100%. This is non-negotiable for me.

    4. I would seek to prevent any funding of teaching institutions of any kind by money directly or indirectly from Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other problematic countries.

    Money has no odour. Provided 3 is complied with, 4 should be unnecessary.

    5. Crackdown on Islamic charities, which are sometimes a front for the funding of terrorism.

    Fronts for funding of terrorism should be cracked down upon. Islamic charities, no. Should Islamic charities be scrutinised closely? Yes, but so should lots of others.

    6. Put pressure on / shame those institutions which provide a home / space / support for hate preachers e.g. UCL, the Quakers and others.

    Yes to those institutions that perform public functions like universities. No to others - for example, the Quakers should not need to make faith compromises to please the rest of us. Though it's reasonable to ask them to explain why they feel their faith obliges them to provide a space for what most people regard as hate preachers.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    7. Shun those who cosy up to hate preachers and the like.

    I have no qualms with society making it clear that these views are beyond the pale. In practice, it does.

    8. Be more robust about using the law to prosecute such people when they do incite violence.

    Yes.

    9. Repeal the Religious Hatred provisions.

    Incitement to religious hatred should be treated by the same test as any other incitement to violence or to breach the peace.

    10. Abolish any use of sharia law.

    No. Individuals can choose to have their disputes arbitrated by whatever principles they agree upon. The Beth Din has been operating in Britain for 100 years. Sharia law can be used privately in the same way. To suggest otherwise is deeply illiberal.

    11. Stop dealing with community leaders - an approach which reeks of colonial condescension to the natives.

    Instinctively, I agree. In practice, if these people have real influence, this may well not be practical.

    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.

    13. Ban the burqa. Ban religious wear for girls under the age of majority.

    I'm content to ban more extreme religious wear for minors, as part of society's disapproval of it. Banning the burqa is profoundly illiberal. Disdain it? Sure. Ban its use in specific circumstances like courts or classrooms? Sure. Ban its use generally? No.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    'Will Ed put off enough voters to affect the election is a fair question'. It's difficult to tell. I don't believe personal traits will make any difference. Thatcher was voted in by many who couldn't bear the sight of her.

    Conservatives have a view of what a Prime Minister should look like and they believe those who don't fit that mold will never be Prime Minister. This can be dismissed. Tories are full of prejudices which is why they barely tickle 30% in the polls

    However competence is something different. At the moment he doesn't seem to have his ideas in place. An idea here and an idea there taking odd pops at the government just doesn't cut it. Unless he can turn his streams of consciousness into something coherent then I fear there will be enough voters put off by his leadership to give the election to the Tories
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Ishmael_X said:

    Roger said:

    Socrates

    "BBC reporting that schools in the ethnic banlieus around Paris refused to participate in the one minute's silence or had the silences interrupted by students. "

    Schools open on Sunday? Were they cheder classes?

    Because they can't have been muslim, because the sacredness of Sunday is such a fundamental tenet of Islam?

    Or even because it was on Thursday...
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    antifrank said:



    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.
    .

    Would you care to quote some of these comments that suggest posters feel like Muslims are a "form of insect life"? Because this sounds like the sort of unsubstantiated fearmongering of the "Islamophobia" demon that is being complained about.

  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Yougov polled with named leaders back in November. It created a 2.5% swing from Lab to Con from the un-named polling numbers. A two point Labour lead became a three point Tory one.

    Incumbency applies to PMs?

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:



    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.
    .

    Would you care to quote some of these comments that suggest posters feel like Muslims are a "form of insect life"? Because this sounds like the sort of unsubstantiated fearmongering of the "Islamophobia" demon that is being complained about.

    Have a read for yourself.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2015
    Birmingham Mail from 2009

    "WHITE working class Brummies fear parts of their city have become no-go areas for them.

    The shock claim has been made in a bombshell Government report into how poor white people feel about immigration.

    The study has also revealed that hard-working white Brummies fear politicians have betrayed them in favour of refugees and single mothers

    The Sunday Mercury revealed in 2007 how large numbers of white people are leaving Birmingham for other parts of Britain – while the number of ethnic community groups in the city continues to grow rapidly.

    For the most part there is racial harmony in Birmingham and if there are no-go areas, then they are in places like Broad Street after 11pm, but that is a national problem and nothing to do with colour

    The report states: “He talks of a few incidents that have occurred over previous years, including a road sign in an area with a high Asian population, on which was sprayed the phrase ‘No Whites after 8.30’.

    The disclosures were made by researchers at Manchester University who said it is expected that the number of whites in Birmingham will drop by nearly a fifth over the next 20 years – from 65 per cent in 2006 to 48 per cent in 2026.

    Meanwhile, the number of Pakistanis in the city will increase from 13 per cent in 2006 to 48 per cent in 2026.

    It is believed the percentage of other ethnic groups, including African, Caribbean, Indian, Bangladeshi and Chinese, will remain roughly around the same."

    http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/the-area-of-birmingham-that-are-no-go-areas-for-white-237564
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:



    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.
    .

    Would you care to quote some of these comments that suggest posters feel like Muslims are a "form of insect life"? Because this sounds like the sort of unsubstantiated fearmongering of the "Islamophobia" demon that is being complained about.

    Have a read for yourself.
    I have and haven't seen it. I suppose it's possible I've missed it, but the more likely situation is that you're just throwing out the claim without any actual evidence as part of your own ideological biases.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    antifrank said:

    No. Individuals can choose to have their disputes arbitrated by whatever principles they agree upon. The Beth Din has been operating in Britain for 100 years. Sharia law can be used privately in the same way. To suggest otherwise is deeply illiberal.

    I agree as far as it goes, but it need to be clear that it's in effect an arbitration service requiring parties to sign an arbitration agreement. There can be no question of a ruling in Sharia Law taking precedence over the British legal system, nor can people be given the expectation that rulings made under Sharia Law authorise them to set aside the law of the land.
    antifrank said:


    I'm content to ban more extreme religious wear for minors, as part of society's disapproval of it. Banning the burqa is profoundly illiberal. Disdain it? Sure. Ban its use in specific circumstances like courts or classrooms? Sure. Ban its use generally? No.

    As I alluded to below, there has to be provision made such that at all places requiring a positive identification of persons, using any sort of religion face covering is not sufficient reason to take and pass that ID check.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    CD13.


    "Schools open on Sunday?"

    You'll never make a scientist. Making assumptions on insufficient data?

    I was being facetious. When the planes went into the twin towers there was a 'Question Time' where the audience seemed to applaud the actions of the mass murderers. It was an instant sentiment of anti Americanism and anti Bush that wasn't thought through. Making these stories bigger than they are warps peoples perspective
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:



    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.
    .

    Would you care to quote some of these comments that suggest posters feel like Muslims are a "form of insect life"? Because this sounds like the sort of unsubstantiated fearmongering of the "Islamophobia" demon that is being complained about.

    Have a read for yourself.
    Allegans probare debet, old boy.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Ishmael_X said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:



    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.
    .

    Would you care to quote some of these comments that suggest posters feel like Muslims are a "form of insect life"? Because this sounds like the sort of unsubstantiated fearmongering of the "Islamophobia" demon that is being complained about.

    Have a read for yourself.
    Allegans probare debet, old boy.

    I'm trying to be polite, particularly since I don't have the time for a long argument.
  • Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:



    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.
    .

    Would you care to quote some of these comments that suggest posters feel like Muslims are a "form of insect life"? Because this sounds like the sort of unsubstantiated fearmongering of the "Islamophobia" demon that is being complained about.

    Have a read for yourself.
    I have and haven't seen it. I suppose it's possible I've missed it, but the more likely situation is that you're just throwing out the claim without any actual evidence as part of your own ideological biases.
    In the past week and a bit on here, one poster called Muslim ragheads

    You yourself in the immediate aftermath of the Paris shootings referred to the Prophet Mohammed as a Paedophile/Child Molester, which put you in the stellar company of the EDL and an assistant to a Tory MP.

    Even if that claim is true, and some doubt it, perhaps you can direct a post of yours criticising the 33 year old King John marrying a 12 year old, five centuries after Mohammed died?
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Morning all.

    The non-die-hards will think twice before voting in favour of Labour’s greatest weakness.

    O/T

    A very impressive and deeply moving turnout in France yesterday - whatever the intentions of the murderous scum who committed these recent atrocities was, I don’t think bringing Palestinian and Israelis leaders together was it.

    Your point is fair.
    The wider intention of these terrorists is to provoke. And they broadly have failed in France although from the looks of the usual suspects in PB they have succeeded.
    The wider question about the purpose of this attack is, was it 'official' or was it just the act of 4 indoctrinated people who thought it was a good idea.
    Judging from the TV the two gunmen thought it would be good to charge through a plate glass door against a phalanx of armed police in a scene reminiscent of 'The Gauntlet' - this does not suggest a sane mindset.

    Abbas of course simply wants a Palestinian homeland, he is a different strand of arab and events like Paris are hardly helping him, not least since the French are broadly on his side.
    Indeed thinking about it if we can all think back - it simply used to be 'arabs', not 'muslims'. Our inability to solve the Arab-Israeli issue has allowed the problem to drift into one based on fundamental religion rather than inter nation politics.
  • On topic, I was told when I canvass this year, to constantly refer to "Ed Miliband's Labour party" as it was worth a few points to the Tory party.

    I have my doubts as I can see Ed's name being a drag on Labour when they are polling 40% but not when they are polling 33%
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    chestnut said:

    Yougov polled with named leaders back in November. It created a 2.5% swing from Lab to Con from the un-named polling numbers. A two point Labour lead became a three point Tory one.

    Incumbency applies to PMs?

    I think that is a significant factor. It is exacerbated by Ed not only being crap, but having no raft of policies behind him that people associate with Labour. Voters are being asked to take a leap in the dark when they vote Labour. Blair could get away with that. Ed? Not so much.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited January 2015

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:



    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.
    .

    Would you care to quote some of these comments that suggest posters feel like Muslims are a "form of insect life"? Because this sounds like the sort of unsubstantiated fearmongering of the "Islamophobia" demon that is being complained about.

    Have a read for yourself.
    I have and haven't seen it. I suppose it's possible I've missed it, but the more likely situation is that you're just throwing out the claim without any actual evidence as part of your own ideological biases.
    In the past week and a bit on here, one poster called Muslim ragheads

    You yourself in the immediate aftermath of the Paris shootings referred to the Prophet Mohammed as a Paedophile/Child Molester, which put you in the stellar company of the EDL and an assistant to a Tory MP.

    Even if that claim is true, and some doubt it, perhaps you can direct a post of yours criticising the 33 year old King John marrying a 12 year old, five centuries after Mohammed died?
    Well was there grass on the pitch when the marriage was consumated (By John) or not ?

    OTOH:

    The majority of traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was married to Muhammad at the age of six or seven, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, or ten according to Ibn Hisham,[7] when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina;[8][9][10]

    Certainly both would fit most people's definition of a paedophile, though you'd have to include me in the Daily Mail one too based off this article:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2901189/Leah-Collis-family-wanted-revenge-PAEDOPHILE-HUNTERS.html
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:



    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.
    .

    Would you care to quote some of these comments that suggest posters feel like Muslims are a "form of insect life"? Because this sounds like the sort of unsubstantiated fearmongering of the "Islamophobia" demon that is being complained about.

    Have a read for yourself.
    I have and haven't seen it. I suppose it's possible I've missed it, but the more likely situation is that you're just throwing out the claim without any actual evidence as part of your own ideological biases.
    In the past week and a bit on here, one poster called Muslim ragheads

    You yourself in the immediate aftermath of the Paris shootings referred to the Prophet Mohammed as a Paedophile/Child Molester, which put you in the stellar company of the EDL and an assistant to a Tory MP.

    Even if that claim is true, and some doubt it, perhaps you can direct a post of yours criticising the 33 year old King John marrying a 12 year old, five centuries after Mohammed died?
    I am pleased to see someone providing sane balance and quite rightly calling out the perverse element in our midst.
  • Morning all

    Not been around for a few days, but I've only just noticed this:

    'A UK Independence Party councillor...had a problem with “negroes” because there was “something about their faces”'.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11333422/UKIP-councillor-had-a-problem-with-negroes-faces.html

    I am just so embarrassed this party exists in Britain.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited January 2015
    I haven't seen Islamophobia on here, but I came across this stuff on the Daily Mail comments. I'm sure we can all utterly condemn such comments.

    "Damn Muslims. They don't have souls, just evil."

    "Don't be friends with any Muslims... their only friends with each other."

    "Cut off their heads and fingers."

    "Muslims ar dirty."

    "Punishments have been prepared. They'll be burnt and beaten."

    "Go to war with them Moslems. Deal with them properly. God's on our side."

    "Vile creatures."

    Surely at least some of these break the law on religious hatred and incitement to violence?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:



    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.
    .

    Would you care to quote some of these comments that suggest posters feel like Muslims are a "form of insect life"? Because this sounds like the sort of unsubstantiated fearmongering of the "Islamophobia" demon that is being complained about.

    Have a read for yourself.
    I have and haven't seen it. I suppose it's possible I've missed it, but the more likely situation is that you're just throwing out the claim without any actual evidence as part of your own ideological biases.
    In the past week and a bit on here, one poster called Muslim ragheads

    You yourself in the immediate aftermath of the Paris shootings referred to the Prophet Mohammed as a Paedophile/Child Molester, which put you in the stellar company of the EDL and an assistant to a Tory MP.

    Even if that claim is true, and some doubt it, perhaps you can direct a post of yours criticising the 33 year old King John marrying a 12 year old, five centuries after Mohammed died?
    Well was there grass on the pitch when the marriage was consumated (By John) or not ?

    OTOH:

    The majority of traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was married to Muhammad at the age of six or seven, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, or ten according to Ibn Hisham,[7] when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina;[8][9][10]

    Certainly both would fit most people's definition of a paedophile, though you'd have to include me in the Daily Mail one too based off this article:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2901189/Leah-Collis-family-wanted-revenge-PAEDOPHILE-HUNTERS.html
    There's contradictory evidence, some say King John was desperate for an heir and started consummation on the wedding night, but she did not produce an heir until she was 17/18.

    It's all about context, I think in that era, when life expectancy was a lot lower, and powerful people married not for love, but for political unions, there have been some interesting marriages.

    I believe the age of consent in both countries was effectively once a girl hit puberty, she was ready to be married off.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited January 2015
    The interesting question is Scotland.

    Right now Labour are campaigning that voting SNP keeps the Tories in power.

    The SNP are campaigning that voting Labour keeps the Tories in power.

    The Tories are campaigning that voting SNP would put Labour in.

    Which of these does Ed Miliband in the campaign help?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701

    On topic, I was told when I canvass this year, to constantly refer to "Ed Miliband's Labour party" as it was worth a few points to the Tory party.

    I have my doubts as I can see Ed's name being a drag on Labour when they are polling 40% but not when they are polling 33%

    It could be part of the reason why they're polling 33%. I suppose the question is whether they will go any lower. I think they could but probably not very much below 30%, as a limit.

    In hindsight, I think any of Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham or John Cruddas would have made a more effective leader than Ed Miliband. And they might be polling now at 35-37% pretty consistently with one of those.

    Scotland probably would have been a write-off under any scenario, unless the Indy ref last year had been a unionist landslide.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Morning all

    Not been around for a few days, but I've only just noticed this:

    'A UK Independence Party councillor...had a problem with “negroes” because there was “something about their faces”'.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11333422/UKIP-councillor-had-a-problem-with-negroes-faces.html

    I am just so embarrassed this party exists in Britain.

    For which he was promptly kicked out the party. What's the status of the Conservative councillor who said those who used food banks were mentally ill?
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:



    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.
    .

    Would you care to quote some of these comments that suggest posters feel like Muslims are a "form of insect life"? Because this sounds like the sort of unsubstantiated fearmongering of the "Islamophobia" demon that is being complained about.

    Have a read for yourself.
    I have and haven't seen it. I suppose it's possible I've missed it, but the more likely situation is that you're just throwing out the claim without any actual evidence as part of your own ideological biases.
    In the past week and a bit on here, one poster called Muslim ragheads

    You yourself in the immediate aftermath of the Paris shootings referred to the Prophet Mohammed as a Paedophile/Child Molester, which put you in the stellar company of the EDL and an assistant to a Tory MP.

    Even if that claim is true, and some doubt it, perhaps you can direct a post of yours criticising the 33 year old King John marrying a 12 year old, five centuries after Mohammed died?
    1. Indefensible.

    2. Irrelevant, but your "guilt by association" point fails. I am sure the EDL also believe that the earth goes round the sun. So what?

    3. What is your point? Is there a widespread Johnist religion which punishes aspersions on the prophet John PBUH with suicide bombings and murders?

  • I think that is a significant factor. It is exacerbated by Ed not only being crap, but having no raft of policies behind him that people associate with Labour. Voters are being asked to take a leap in the dark when they vote Labour. Blair could get away with that. Ed? Not so much.

    Blair and his team put in a huge amount of effort before 1997 to ensure they looked like a competent government-in-waiting. The current Labour front-bench have put in precisely none.
  • On topic, I was told when I canvass this year, to constantly refer to "Ed Miliband's Labour party" as it was worth a few points to the Tory party.

    I have my doubts as I can see Ed's name being a drag on Labour when they are polling 40% but not when they are polling 33%

    It could be part of the reason why they're polling 33%. I suppose the question is whether they will go any lower. I think they could but probably not very much below 30%, as a limit.

    In hindsight, I think any of Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham or John Cruddas would have made a more effective leader than Ed Miliband. And they might be polling now at 35-37% pretty consistently with one of those.

    Scotland probably would have been a write-off under any scenario, unless the Indy ref last year had been a unionist landslide.
    One of my assumptions for this election was everyone who voted Labour in 2010 would vote Labour in 2015.

    Now I'm not so sure, even excluding Scotland.

    Is why the Lord Ashcroft marginal polling is so important, UKIP could take some seats from Labour.

    If it wasn't for those Lib to Lab switchers, Labour would be polling less than 30%
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322



    In the past week and a bit on here, one poster called Muslim ragheads

    You yourself in the immediate aftermath of the Paris shootings referred to the Prophet Mohammed as a Paedophile/Child Molester, which put you in the stellar company of the EDL and an assistant to a Tory MP.

    Even if that claim is true, and some doubt it, perhaps you can direct a post of yours criticising the 33 year old King John marrying a 12 year old, five centuries after Mohammed died?

    If King John had sex with her at 12 years old, he was indeed a paedophile and child molester.

    Happy?

  • Apology for 'Muslim Birmingham' Fox News claim
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30773297

    One tweet said: "As someone born and raised in Birmingham, I must admit there was a pressure to read the Kerrang." Priceless!

    It's called 'FOX News' because it does.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701

    Pulpstar said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:



    12. Stop using silly language such as "Islamophobia".

    It's not silly. Rereading some of these threads in the cold light of day, you sometimes feel that Muslims feel like a form of insect life for many posters. And that's in a relatively civilised corner of the internet.
    .

    Would you care to quote some of these comments that suggest posters feel like Muslims are a "form of insect life"? Because this sounds like the sort of unsubstantiated fearmongering of the "Islamophobia" demon that is being complained about.

    Have a read for yourself.
    I have and haven't seen it. I suppose it's possible I've missed it, but the more likely situation is that you're just throwing out the claim without any actual evidence as part of your own ideological biases.
    In the past week and a bit on here, one poster called Muslim ragheads

    You yourself in the immediate aftermath of the Paris shootings referred to the Prophet Mohammed as a Paedophile

    Even if that claim is true, and some doubt it, perhaps you can direct a post of yours criticising the 33 year old King John marrying a 12 year old, five centuries after Mohammed died?
    Well was there grass on the pitch when the marriage was consumated (By John) or not ?

    OTOH:

    The majority of traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was married to Muhammad at the age of six or seven, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, or ten according to Ibn Hisham,[7] when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina;[8][9][10]

    Certainly both would fit most people's definition of a paedophile, though you'd have to include me in the Daily Mail one too based off this article:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2901189/Leah-Collis-family-wanted-revenge-PAEDOPHILE-HUNTERS.html
    There's contradictory evidence, some say King John was desperate for an heir and started consummation on the wedding night, but she did not produce an heir until she was 17/18.

    It's all about context, I think in that era, when life expectancy was a lot lower, and powerful people married not for love, but for political unions, there have been some interesting marriages.

    I believe the age of consent in both countries was effectively once a girl hit puberty, she was ready to be married off.
    Don't forget Margaret Beaufort and Edmund Tudor. He married her at the age of 12 and she gave birth at the age of 13 to our future King Henry VII. She was so young that it damaged her body irrevocably and she wasn't able to bear children ever again after.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited January 2015
    @Socrates

    I reckon of those quotes

    All are abhorrent.

    One is probably currently legal.

    If you are going to use incitement to violence (That would be my preferred measure of legality rather than hatred) as a test then four out of seven are still illegal.

    What do others think ?
This discussion has been closed.