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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB’s cartoonist, Marf, on the news from Paris

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  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited January 2015


    That article appears to be edited with extra bits, and I think it described the decisions of Charlie Hebdo as "stupidity" before (in that paragraph you quoted).

    Does anyone else notice the difference?

    There are extensive differences. This is the first version of the inflammatory passage:

    Two years ago it published a 65-page strip cartoon book portraying the Prophet’s life. And this week it gave special coverage to Soumission (“Submission”), a new novel by Michel Houellebecq, the idiosyncratic author, which depicts France in the grip of an Islamic regime led by a Muslim president.

    In other words, Charlie Hebdo has a long record of mocking, baiting and needling French Muslims. If the magazine stops just short of outright insults, it is nevertheless not the most convincing champion of the principle of freedom of speech. France is the land of Voltaire, but too often editorial foolishness has prevailed at Charlie Hebdo.

    This is not in the slightest to condone the murderers, who must be caught and punished, or to suggest that freedom of expression should not extend to satirical portrayals of religion. It is merely to say that some common sense would be useful at publications such as Charlie Hebdo, and Denmark’s Jyllands-Posten, which purport to strike a blow for freedom when they provoke Muslims, but are actually just being stupid.
    And this is the second version:

    It has a long record of mocking, baiting and needling Muslims. Two years ago the magazine published a 65-page strip cartoon book portraying the Prophet’s life. And this week it gave special coverage to Soumission (“Submission”), a new novel by Michel Houellebecq, the idiosyncratic author, which depicts France in the grip of an Islamic regime led by a Muslim president.

    This is not in the slightest to condone the murderers, who must be caught and punished, or to suggest that freedom of expression should not extend to satirical portrayals of religion. It is merely to say that some common sense would be useful at publications such as Charlie Hebdo, and Denmark’s Jyllands-Posten, which purport to strike a blow for freedom when they provoke Muslims.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Ms Plato,

    "Irony is officially dead."

    The difference is that McGuinness sees the IRA's struggle as being political. Therefore freedom fighter and terrorist are subjective views.

    Islamist terrorists want freedom from freedom.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Cyclefree said:

    CD13 said:


    .


    One thing we shouldn't think is that it's an unsolvable problem, an unbridgeable gap, a clash of incompatible cultures and values. Go down that route and we just keep putting up the barriers, closing off a community behind it, and give the virus a greater chance of taking root there.

    In the 1980s there was a serious danger from international Sikh terrorism. Sikh communities in the Western diaspora, including Britain and Canada formed a prominent part of this network. There's been no repeat of Air India Flight 182 and the threat has largely fizzled out (the perception certainly has, it's fascinating to see how many people compare British Muslims unfavourably to British Sikhs, who have "integrated better" and are a "model minority") though apparently the legacy of the networks is still there.

    Ten years ago a lot of the Tamils I knew were vocal supporters of the Tigers. Sure, they got uncomfortable if you asked too much about the LTTE launching suicide bomb attacks - but just like how you ask a pro-Palestine activist about this stuff, you end up receiving a bunch of arguments about how terrible the conditions are, and why Resistance is justified.

    .....
    It's not an unsolveable problem but it will take a hell of a lot more effort than we are currently putting in.

    One point I would make is that the Tamils were defeated, the IRA was defeated and given a share in government. So the militancy was no longer necessary.

    Islamist terror will need to be defeated. And to defeat it we need to understand what animates it - the ideology behind it - and fight that so that it is not the potent recruiting ground that it now is.

    We have IMO not even made a start on that, not least because so many of the political class have refused to accept that there is an ideological basis for what is happening, where it is coming from and how it is being funded and spread.

    Islamist terror will be defeated by the establishment of democracy in Islamist countries. We should remember that Pakistani army casualties fighting Islamist terrorists are not inconsiderable.
    Its worth recalling that the 30 years war, apart from lasting 30 years which is sobering in itself, ended by putting politics on the footing of countries and not religion.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,036

    RodCrosby said:

    Hollande calls Day of National Mourning...

    Shouldn't the French catch the perpetrators first?
    This is one of the most worrying aspects of what has happened in the aftermath of the attack - they are still out there, and probably still armed. Who knows what they are going to do next. Hopefully the French security services don't drop the ball on this and are able to apprehend them soon.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited January 2015
    Neil said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 But my bet is it will end up Hollande v Le Pen, only 52-48 Hollande on last poll.

    French centre-right hopelessly split and filled with oversize egos, Fillon will run against Juppe or Sarkozy if he does not win UMP nomination, and Sarkozy against Juppe likewise allowing Hollande through middle to round 2. Marine tops round 1

    You'll get good odds on that. Hollande may not even run, he's at longer odds than his own PM.

    His own PM might not fare much better since the french socialist party has imploded, in the latest opinion poll for the next parliamentary elections they will have only around 60 seats with 18% of the vote :
    http://blogs.mediapart.fr/blog/marie-anne-kraft/031214/sondage-sur-les-legislatives-2017-la-gauche-laminee-un-nouvel-attrait-pour-la-proportionnelle

    UMP 24% (-3% from 2012)
    FN 23% (+10%)
    PS 18% (-16.5%)
    UDI 12% (+6%) (liberals)
    FLG 8% (+1%) (far left)
    Greens 7% (+1.5%)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited January 2015
    Off-topic: I've just noticed an interesting feature of the GE forecast of may2015.com:

    http://may2015.com/category/seat-calculator/

    They are currently forecasting (excluding NI):

    Con 270
    Lab 285
    LD 23
    UKIP 3
    SNP 46
    Green 1
    Other 4

    on vote shares of 32.5% Con, 34% Lab.

    If they are right, that would mean that the Labour vote-efficiency advantage would be minimal in this election: Con 8.31 seats per percentage point of vote share, Lab 8.38. Presumably the main reason for this is the SNP sweeping up most of the board in Scotland.

    Food for thought.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Yet more pictures of cats. Really, I despair of the internet sometimes.

    www.buzzfeed.com/petek49bde904e/17-cute-cats-explain-the-green-party-11iwv
  • In line with the FT's Tony Barber European Editor.

    Agnes Poirier @AgnesCPoirier
    #CharlieHebdo Attack. I have just been asked by AlJazeera if CharlieHebdo journalists should apologize (for making fun at Islamists).
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    CD13 said:

    Ms Plato,

    "Irony is officially dead."

    The difference is that McGuinness sees the IRA's struggle as being political. Therefore freedom fighter and terrorist are subjective views.

    Islamist terrorists want freedom from freedom.

    Quite, and the IRA command were rationalists, who didn't enjoy killing for its own sake, had clearly defined objectives, and were ultimately prepared to compromise [and sit down to dinner with The Queen].
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Off-topic: I've just noticed an interesting feature of the GE forecast of may2015.com:

    http://may2015.com/category/seat-calculator/

    They are currently forecasting (excluding NI):

    Con 270
    Lab 285
    LD 23
    UKIP 3
    SNP 46
    Green 1
    Other 4

    on vote shares of 32.% Con, 34% Lab.

    If they are right, that would mean that the Labour vote-efficiency advantage would be minimal in this election: Con 8.31 seats per percentage point of vote share, Lab 8.38. Presumably the main reason for this is the SNP sweeping up most of the board in Scotland.

    Food for thought.

    They're predicting a Plaid Cymru gain? Or NHA winning Wyre Forest? Presumably the former.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    edited January 2015
    Speedy Indeed, the French presidential election of 2017 could be the most momentous general election in Europe, or the western world, for half a century. If the unthinkable happened and Marine Le Pen won the shockwaves for the EU, the eurozone, immigration and western policy towards the Middle East would be huge
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RodCrosby said:

    CD13 said:

    Ms Plato,

    "Irony is officially dead."

    The difference is that McGuinness sees the IRA's struggle as being political. Therefore freedom fighter and terrorist are subjective views.

    Islamist terrorists want freedom from freedom.

    Quite, and the IRA command were rationalists, who didn't enjoy killing for its own sake, had clearly defined objectives, and were ultimately prepared to compromise [and sit down to dinner with The Queen].
    Yeah, I doubt the IRA's victims appreciate the difference.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    We should remember that Pakistani army casualties fighting Islamist terrorists are not inconsiderable.

    Is that the same Pakistan that still has the death penalty for blasphemy? that Pakistan?

    Your posts today show you are living in a parallel universe, Flightpath. The implications of what is happening are far too much for your robotic little Cameroonian brain to understand.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Can't believe Sky are showing the shooting of the police man. It really isn't necessary, and very disturbing.

    And the BBC had on Mohammed Shafiq, who was spouting the usual nonsense....but nobody dared bring up the fact he led a campaign in reaction to Maajid Nawaz tweeting a cartoon from the Jesus and Mo series. I would have thought that might be pertinent given todays horrific actions.

    Yes - but is not this another example of how cr@p journalists are? Do they have any judgement? Is not this what we rely on when they filter the news down to us? Aren't they simply useless?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Neil said:

    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    A September IFOP actually had Marine Le Pen beating Hollande 54-46

    Guess who mentioned the mess of french politics, who noted the that the french centre-right was split, Holland was so unpopular and Le Pen beating him in the second round.

    I take full modest credit.
    You take credit for forecasting something that probably wont happen?
    I was talking about the opinion polls which show that Hollande loses from Le Pen in the second round and the centre right having become split.
    Stating the past is not a forecast.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited January 2015
    antifrank said:

    They're predicting a Plaid Cymru gain? Or NHA winning Wyre Forest? Presumably the former.

    No, Galloway to hold Bradford West. Looks wrong to me, but it's a minor detail. What is very useful is that they publish (at the bottom of the page) every seat forecast in order of marginality, which, if they are anywhere near right, could be very handy for betting purposes.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    They're predicting a Plaid Cymru gain? Or NHA winning Wyre Forest? Presumably the former.

    No, Bradford West. Looks wrong to me, but it's a minor detail. What is very useful is that they publish (at the bottom of the page) every seat forecast in order of marginality, which, if they are anywhere near right, could be very handy for betting purposes.
    That is handy. A bookmark is in order.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    edited January 2015
    Neil Fillon has said quite clearly he will be a candidate in round 1 'no matter what' whether he wins the UMP nomination or not http://www.france24.com/en/20130510-fillon-presidential-race-syria-chemical-weapons-mao-millionaire-granddaughter/ Valls has made no such statement if Hollande wins the PS nomination. Sarkozy will also certainly run even if Juppe were to win the UMP nod, and quite possibly visa versa
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The mods won't allow me to link to anything. My purgatory for not being a LibDem.
    Neil said:

    Yet more pictures of cats. Really, I despair of the internet sometimes.

    www.buzzfeed.com/petek49bde904e/17-cute-cats-explain-the-green-party-11iwv

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 But my bet is it will end up Hollande v Le Pen, only 52-48 Hollande on last poll.

    French centre-right hopelessly split and filled with oversize egos, Fillon will run against Juppe or Sarkozy if he does not win UMP nomination, and Sarkozy against Juppe likewise allowing Hollande through middle to round 2. Marine tops round 1

    Hollande is currently fourth in the round one polls, behind Le Pen, behind any right wing candidate and behind the centrist Bayrou. He is only 2-3% ahead of the communist candidate.

    Fillon will not stand against Juppe or Sarkozy, because he simply doesn't have the support or the money. And if he did run (which he won't), he wouldn't syphon off more than a couple of percent from Juppe/Sarkozy.

    And even if he did manage to so perfectly split the right wing vote that Hollande slipped ahead of Juppe and Sarkozy, he'd still likely be trailing Bayrou.

    Look, the world might change, but I can't see a credible route for an incredibly unpopular incumbent with a low teens approval rating, running fourth in the polls for President, to make it through to the last two.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The parallel universe of the modern European ruling classes.

    Thousands protesting in Dresden to oppose islamification in Europe - fascist.

    Thousands protesting in Paris to oppose...er....islamification in Europe - magnificent.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,036
    Speedy said:

    Neil said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 But my bet is it will end up Hollande v Le Pen, only 52-48 Hollande on last poll.

    French centre-right hopelessly split and filled with oversize egos, Fillon will run against Juppe or Sarkozy if he does not win UMP nomination, and Sarkozy against Juppe likewise allowing Hollande through middle to round 2. Marine tops round 1

    You'll get good odds on that. Hollande may not even run, he's at longer odds than his own PM.

    His own PM might not fare much better since the french socialist party has imploded, in the latest opinion poll for the next parliamentary elections they will have only around 60 seats with 18% of the vote :
    http://blogs.mediapart.fr/blog/marie-anne-kraft/031214/sondage-sur-les-legislatives-2017-la-gauche-laminee-un-nouvel-attrait-pour-la-proportionnelle

    UMP 24% (-3% from 2012)
    FN 23% (+10%)
    PS 18% (-16.5%)
    UDI 12% (+6%) (liberals)
    FLG 8% (+1%) (far left)
    Greens 7% (+1.5%)
    From that link:

    "The best way for the left and above the PS to limit the damage is to propose a change of voting, through proportional representation."

    Calling TSE.. we need a thread on French voting reforms.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Umm

    After a great deal of blood. I don't think the IRA have anything to be proud of myself = and I don't give a stuff about religion as I'm an atheist.

    Using Your God as an excuse for brutality is beyond even my open mind.
    RodCrosby said:

    CD13 said:

    Ms Plato,

    "Irony is officially dead."

    The difference is that McGuinness sees the IRA's struggle as being political. Therefore freedom fighter and terrorist are subjective views.

    Islamist terrorists want freedom from freedom.

    Quite, and the IRA command were rationalists, who didn't enjoy killing for its own sake, had clearly defined objectives, and were ultimately prepared to compromise [and sit down to dinner with The Queen].
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    HYUFD said:

    Neil Fillon has said quite clearly he will be a candidate in round 1 'no matter what' whether he wins the UMP nomination or not http://www.france24.com/en/20130510-fillon-presidential-race-syria-chemical-weapons-mao-millionaire-granddaughter/ Valls has made no such statement if Hollande wins the PS nomination. Sarkozy will also certainly run even if Juppe were to win the UMP nod, and quite possibly visa versa

    I think the odds of all three of Fillon, Juppé and Sarkozy contesting the first round are very low. We'll see in time.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Quite
    taffys said:

    The parallel universe of the modern European ruling classes.

    Thousands protesting in Dresden to oppose islamification in Europe - fascist.

    Thousands protesting in Paris to oppose...er....islamification in Europe - magnificent.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    BBC News 24 just showed cartoons. Credit where credit's due.

    Evening Standard cropped photo so main cartoon couldn't be seen. Haven't seen any other print media willing to publish it uncensored yet.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    edited January 2015
    rcs1000 The French polls now only include one centre right candidate, if you split that candidate's vote in half, or even cut off a third Hollande could well be second behind Le Pen. Hollande beats Bayrou in most polls http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017

    Incumbent French presidents tend to recover from dire midterms polls before the election, as Sarkozy did in 2012, Chirac in 1995 and Mitterand in 1988. Hollande v Le Pen remains a strong possibility

    Fillon has made clear he will run 'no matter what' and as a former PM who in the past outpolled Sarkozy there is no reason he will not, as Balladur ran against Chirac in 1995 in round 1.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Speedy said:

    Neil said:

    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    A September IFOP actually had Marine Le Pen beating Hollande 54-46

    Guess who mentioned the mess of french politics, who noted the that the french centre-right was split, Holland was so unpopular and Le Pen beating him in the second round.

    I take full modest credit.
    You take credit for forecasting something that probably wont happen?
    I was talking about the opinion polls which show that Hollande loses from Le Pen in the second round and the centre right having become split.
    Stating the past is not a forecast.
    Hollande is the most unpopular incumbent anywhere in the world. His approval rating is 12%. He's the only politician in the world who looks at Clegg and says... "man, I wish I had his approval ratings".

    The UMP will - as always - rally around their candidate after he is chosen, just as the Republicans will bicker and rally around their candidate.

    And that makes 7-1 on Le Pen look pretty unattractive to me.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Fenster said:

    Socrates said:

    Fenster said:

    I doubt their attitude is unusual among young muslim men living in Britain. We throw that catch-all 'only a minority' out there when awful terrorist attacks happen because it makes us feel secrue, and it's probably true amongst older muslims, but the yonunger ones have been brought up here in the wake of 9/11. In a world where the working class, uneducated have little on offer to them, the excitement of hating something and not feeling disenfranchised anymore (ie, identifying with Islam's struggle against the West) must be pretty enduring.

    Those guys up the shop won't give a monkeys about those journalists today. They'll say they had it coming.

    And this is the situation that liberal platitudes make people blind to. There was a time when there was a natural affinity between us and our English-speaking cousins across the Atlantic, with our shared history of constitutionalism, representative democracy, individual rights. But Muslim immigration means a lot more people sympathise more with the barbarism of Saudi Arabia than the United States. It clearly diminishes us as a people.
    Yep, I'd agree with you.

    I fear that all the well-intentioned people in this country who have done their best to shoo away concerns about Islamic hatred towards the West are in for a very, very nasty shock.

    I say this with no sense of satisfaction. I fear that intelligent middle class liberals have little idea how passionately driven the working class muslims are by disdain for western culture.

    On a personal level, they like me and I like them. But on a wider level they dislike the world I represent.

    Have people really ''done their best to shoo away concerns'' ?? We saw scores killed on 7/7. We have seen many other incidents and arrests. I would have thought the public have the appropriate concerns.
    But tell me, is there an army of armed insane muslims assembling barges on the French channel coast ready to invade us?
    Is there any reason why 95% of the population should be sitting at home cowering?
    You make a sweeping claim about disdain for western culture. You may be right. I would be interested to know just what this disdain is.
    As for hating America - my own suspicions are that that is more vitriolic amongst the lentil eating lefty brigade leavened by the loony peacenik CND socialists. With not a muslim amongst them.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,036

    BBC News 24 just showed cartoons. Credit where credit's due.

    Evening Standard cropped photo so main cartoon couldn't be seen. Haven't seen any other print media willing to publish it uncensored yet.

    Good on the Beeb for doing that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 The French polls now only include one centre right candidate, if you split that candidate's vote in half, or even cut off a third Hollande could well be second behind Le Pen. Hollande beats Bayrou in most polls http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017

    Incumbent French presidents tend to recover from dire midterms polls before the election, as Sarkozy did in 2012, Chirac in 1995 and Mitterand in 1988. Hollande v Le Pen remains a strong possibility

    That's because there's only going to be one UMP candidate!

    Do you want to have a small bet at how many of Juppe-Sarkozy-Fillon will be on the ballot in 2017?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Plato said:

    Umm

    After a great deal of blood. I don't think the IRA have anything to be proud of myself = and I don't give a stuff about religion as I'm an atheist.

    Using Your God as an excuse for brutality is beyond even my open mind.

    RodCrosby said:

    CD13 said:

    Ms Plato,

    "Irony is officially dead."

    The difference is that McGuinness sees the IRA's struggle as being political. Therefore freedom fighter and terrorist are subjective views.

    Islamist terrorists want freedom from freedom.

    Quite, and the IRA command were rationalists, who didn't enjoy killing for its own sake, had clearly defined objectives, and were ultimately prepared to compromise [and sit down to dinner with The Queen].
    As has already been explained to you, the Irish problem was not about religion, although sectarianism (almost exclusively from one side) exacerbated the problem...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    RodCrosby said:

    Plato said:

    Umm

    After a great deal of blood. I don't think the IRA have anything to be proud of myself = and I don't give a stuff about religion as I'm an atheist.

    Using Your God as an excuse for brutality is beyond even my open mind.

    RodCrosby said:

    CD13 said:

    Ms Plato,

    "Irony is officially dead."

    The difference is that McGuinness sees the IRA's struggle as being political. Therefore freedom fighter and terrorist are subjective views.

    Islamist terrorists want freedom from freedom.

    Quite, and the IRA command were rationalists, who didn't enjoy killing for its own sake, had clearly defined objectives, and were ultimately prepared to compromise [and sit down to dinner with The Queen].
    As has already been explained to you, the Irish problem was not about religion, although sectarianism (almost exclusively from one side) exacerbated the problem...
    That's quite harsh on the Catholics, they weren't that bigoted.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Obama saying France has always been with (the USA) ever since 9/11 as an ally in dealing with terrorist organisations around the world.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm sure Mexican cartels feel the same.

    RodCrosby said:

    Plato said:

    Umm

    After a great deal of blood. I don't think the IRA have anything to be proud of myself = and I don't give a stuff about religion as I'm an atheist.

    Using Your God as an excuse for brutality is beyond even my open mind.

    RodCrosby said:

    CD13 said:

    Ms Plato,

    "Irony is officially dead."

    The difference is that McGuinness sees the IRA's struggle as being political. Therefore freedom fighter and terrorist are subjective views.

    Islamist terrorists want freedom from freedom.

    Quite, and the IRA command were rationalists, who didn't enjoy killing for its own sake, had clearly defined objectives, and were ultimately prepared to compromise [and sit down to dinner with The Queen].
    As has already been explained to you, the Irish problem was not about religion, although sectarianism (almost exclusively from one side) exacerbated the problem...
    That's quite harsh on the Catholics, they weren't that bigoted.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2015
    There are some dodgy predictions on that site, such as Stafford being Tory by only 0.38%. They'll win it a lot more easily than that IMO.

    Also, Battersea will by a Con hold by a lot more than 2.47%.

    Off-topic: I've just noticed an interesting feature of the GE forecast of may2015.com:

    http://may2015.com/category/seat-calculator/

    They are currently forecasting (excluding NI):

    Con 270
    Lab 285
    LD 23
    UKIP 3
    SNP 46
    Green 1
    Other 4

    on vote shares of 32.5% Con, 34% Lab.

    If they are right, that would mean that the Labour vote-efficiency advantage would be minimal in this election: Con 8.31 seats per percentage point of vote share, Lab 8.38. Presumably the main reason for this is the SNP sweeping up most of the board in Scotland.

    Food for thought.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    RobD said:

    BBC News 24 just showed cartoons. Credit where credit's due.

    Evening Standard cropped photo so main cartoon couldn't be seen. Haven't seen any other print media willing to publish it uncensored yet.

    Good on the Beeb for doing that.
    Yes. They showed in amongst lots of other of their controversial cartoons, but that's ok. It was clear which ones were the issue.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    rcs1000 There will be at least 2, Fillon has already said for certain he will be for starters, but I am not betting anything yet. The centre right has often had 2 candidates in round 1, the French system makes that much easier than the US, Chirac Balladur in 1995, d'Estaing v Chirac in 1981 so historically you are wrong to say the French centre right always rally round their candidate, they do in round 2, but not in round 1
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Ms Plato,

    I'm not a fan of the IRA. They were fighting for what they regarded as freedom from the British and used horrific tactics when they thought it would gain. Anyone who opposed was an enemy. But I doubt if they intended to take over Western Europe and make it their fiefdom.

    The Islamic terrorists are fighting to take freedom away from everyone else. There is no compromise there and never will be. The option of leave us alone and we'll leave you alone doesn't apply.

  • Jim Stone calls 'hoax'. Clearly not real shots. Blanks.
    http://tapnewswire.com/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-says-love-is-stronger-than-hate/
  • Greengage said:

    Jim Stone calls 'hoax'. Clearly not real shots. Blanks.
    http://tapnewswire.com/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-says-love-is-stronger-than-hate/

    Absolutely barmy.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Cyclefree said:

    CD13 said:


    .


    One thing we shouldn't think is that it's an unsolvable problem, an unbridgeable gap, a clash of incompatible cultures and values. Go down that route and we just keep putting up the barriers, closing off a community behind it, and give the virus a greater chance of taking root there.

    In the 1980s there was a serious danger from international Sikh terrorism. Sikh communities in the Western diaspora, including Britain and Canada formed a prominent part of this network. There's been no repeat of Air India Flight 182 and the threat has largely fizzled out (the perception certainly has, it's fascinating to see how many people compare British Muslims unfavourably to British Sikhs, who have "integrated better" and are a "model minority") though apparently the legacy of the networks is still there.

    Ten years ago a lot of the Tamils I knew were vocal supporters of the Tigers. Sure, they got uncomfortable if you asked too much about the LTTE launching suicide bomb attacks - but just like how you ask a pro-Palestine activist about this stuff, you end up receiving a bunch of arguments about how terrible the conditions are, and why Resistance is justified.

    .....
    It's not an unsolveable problem but it will take a hell of a lot more effort than we are currently putting in.

    One point I would make is that the Tamils were defeated, the IRA was defeated and given a share in government. So the militancy was no longer necessary.

    Islamist terror will need to be defeated. And to defeat it we need to understand what animates it - the ideology behind it - and fight that so that it is not the potent recruiting ground that it now is.

    We have IMO not even made a start on that, not least because so many of the political class have refused to accept that there is an ideological basis for what is happening, where it is coming from and how it is being funded and spread.

    Islamist terror will be defeated by the establishment of democracy in Islamist countries. We should remember that Pakistani army casualties fighting Islamist terrorists are not inconsiderable.
    Its worth recalling that the 30 years war, apart from lasting 30 years which is sobering in itself, ended by putting politics on the footing of countries and not religion.
    And how on earth do you think democracy is going to be established in countries where the population thinks religious law should be the basis for the law of the country. How can you have any sort of opposition? Religious law - certainly sharia law - and democracy are incompatible it seems to me.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    The French Right has a wonderful history of "splittism". That being said, the examples you give from the past were from a time when the cost of splitting was low. If two centre right candidates stood, then you could still be sure that one of them would be in the last round. That's not true this time: there are (potentially) five different parties with 10+% support ratings, and that's why I think that Fillon - whatever he says now - will stand aside if he's not picked as the UMP candidate. (There will be a cost to that, of course, Juppe or Sarkozy would have to offer him something in return.) But the pressure, from inside the UMP itself, and from the French business establishment would be enormous.

    So, even though you are sure that Fillon will be a candidate, I'm happy to offer 2-1 that (if he's not picked) that he won't.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Religious law - certainly sharia law - and democracy are incompatible it seems to me.

    No point arguing with Flightpath today. His or her little cameroonian brain does not compute.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    CD13 said:


    .


    One thing we shouldn't think is that it's an unsolvable problem, an unbridgeable gap, a clash of incompatible cultures and values. Go down that route and we just keep putting up the barriers, closing off a community behind it, and give the virus a greater chance of taking root there.

    In the 1980s there was a serious danger from international Sikh terrorism. Sikh communities in the Western diaspora, including Britain and Canada formed a prominent part of this network. There's been no repeat of Air India Flight 182 and the threat has largely fizzled out (the perception certainly has, it's fascinating to see how many people compare British Muslims unfavourably to British Sikhs, who have "integrated better" and are a "model minority") though apparently the legacy of the networks is still there.

    Ten years ago a lot of the Tamils I knew were vocal supporters of the Tigers. Sure, they got uncomfortable if you asked too much about the LTTE launching suicide bomb attacks - but just like how you ask a pro-Palestine activist about this stuff, you end up receiving a bunch of arguments about how terrible the conditions are, and why Resistance is justified.

    .....
    It's not an unsolveable problem but it will take a hell of a lot more effort than we are currently putting in.

    One point I would make is that the Tamils were defeated, the IRA was defeated and given a share in government. So the militancy was no longer necessary.

    Islamist terror will need to be defeated. And to defeat it we need to understand what animates it - the ideology behind it - and fight that so that it is not the potent recruiting ground that it now is.

    We have IMO not even made a start on that, not least because so many of the political class have refused to accept that there is an ideological basis for what is happening, where it is coming from and how it is being funded and spread.

    Islamist terror will be defeated by the establishment of democracy in Islamist countries. We should remember that Pakistani army casualties fighting Islamist terrorists are not inconsiderable.
    Its worth recalling that the 30 years war, apart from lasting 30 years which is sobering in itself, ended by putting politics on the footing of countries and not religion.
    And how on earth do you think democracy is going to be established in countries where the population thinks religious law should be the basis for the law of the country. How can you have any sort of opposition? Religious law - certainly sharia law - and democracy are incompatible it seems to me.

    I really don;t know why you bother with him you'd get more sense from a vegetable marrow,
  • Very very odd that three armed terrorists can dissappear from view in a large western city. Do they have no cameras?
  • Paris:

    One wonders if Shadow, Sentinel and Airseeker (II) have been made available under Lancaster House. A few legacy Brimstones should do the trick (from a Tonka GR4). :innocent:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    rcs1000 Jean Marine Le Pen won 15% in 1995, not that far off Marine Le Pen's total now. Balladur won 18%, Chirac 20%, Jospin 23%, Chirac won round 2 53-47, but Jospin won round 1 with the split right.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624

    Very very odd that three armed terrorists can dissappear from view in a large western city. Do they have no cameras?

    What? You don't genuinely believe there was a terrorist attach do you?

    This was clearly a set-up by the French security services, working together with MI5, the CIA and the Illuminati. These groups have realised that the same trick they pulled on 9/11 simply won't work again now that everyone has camera phones. They therefore need to do something where they can control the environment a little better: and what's easier than a magazine office?

    It is no coincidence the editor was in London today, and I think you'll find that the 'cartoonists' (really CIA operatives) are already back at their homes in Virginia. (You'll find that a plane took off from Paris Orly airport without any regular markings whatsoever just 20 minutes after the alleged terrorist attack.

    WAKE UP SHEEPLE AND SEE THE WAY YOU ARE BEING MANIPULATED
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited January 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    The French Right has a wonderful history of "splittism". That being said, the examples you give from the past were from a time when the cost of splitting was low. If two centre right candidates stood, then you could still be sure that one of them would be in the last round. That's not true this time: there are (potentially) five different parties with 10+% support ratings, and that's why I think that Fillon - whatever he says now - will stand aside if he's not picked as the UMP candidate. (There will be a cost to that, of course, Juppe or Sarkozy would have to offer him something in return.) But the pressure, from inside the UMP itself, and from the French business establishment would be enormous.

    So, even though you are sure that Fillon will be a candidate, I'm happy to offer 2-1 that (if he's not picked) that he won't.

    Fillon is the proponent that the UMP ally itself with the FN, so much that there were rumours last year of a Le Pen-Fillon deal in that Fillon helps Le Pen win the presidency and in exchange she will make Fillon her PM.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078

    antifrank said:

    They're predicting a Plaid Cymru gain? Or NHA winning Wyre Forest? Presumably the former.

    No, Galloway to hold Bradford West. Looks wrong to me, but it's a minor detail. What is very useful is that they publish (at the bottom of the page) every seat forecast in order of marginality, which, if they are anywhere near right, could be very handy for betting purposes.
    Bradford West odds,Mr Nabavi.Lab 1-3.Respect 3-1.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 Jean Marine Le Pen won 15% in 1995, not that far off Marine Le Pen's total now. Balladur won 18%, Chirac 20%, Jospin 23%, Chirac won round 2 53-47, but Jospin won round 1 with the split right.

    You're absolutely right.
    But Fillon still won't stand as an unofficial UMP candidate.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    How on earth can a party with a preponderance of pensioners NOT have a policy on pensions?
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d/no-pensions-policy-how-ukip-4923376
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    The Telegraph's Harriet Alexander reports from Paris;
    Police raided two apartments in the north western suburbs of Paris on Wednesday afternoon - one, at 4.30pm, in Seine-Saint-Denis, and the other in Gennevilliers, in the Hauts-de-Seine region.
    No one was arrested.
    Local media also reported that the search was continuing in Reims, the town famous for producing Champagne, 100 miles east of Paris.
    According to regional newspaper L'Union-L'Ardennais, police thought they may have identified three suspects in the attack, and one of them was from Reims.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    antifrank said:

    They're predicting a Plaid Cymru gain? Or NHA winning Wyre Forest? Presumably the former.

    No, Galloway to hold Bradford West. Looks wrong to me, but it's a minor detail. What is very useful is that they publish (at the bottom of the page) every seat forecast in order of marginality, which, if they are anywhere near right, could be very handy for betting purposes.
    Speaking of which - does anyone know if Galloway has confirmed if he's going to stand next year yet?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    edited January 2015
    rcs1000 No he will stand on an independent ticket or form another alliance. Interesting comments Speedy
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 Jean Marine Le Pen won 15% in 1995, not that far off Marine Le Pen's total now. Balladur won 18%, Chirac 20%, Jospin 23%, Chirac won round 2 53-47, but Jospin won round 1 with the split right.

    You're absolutely right.
    But Fillon still won't stand as an unofficial UMP candidate.
    We don't know that though, as I said a deal might be cooking behind the scenes between Fillon and Le Pen.
  • Edin_RokzEdin_Rokz Posts: 516

    Very very odd that three armed terrorists can dissappear from view in a large western city. Do they have no cameras?

    The belief that by having cameras all over the place will stop crime or terrorism is really quite quaint. Any criminal / terrorist etc. worth their salt would find the areas not under surveillance and use that to change cars/vehicles probably more than once and then get on the Metro to where ever.

    In Edinburgh, there was a smash and grab against a well known jeweller on George Street, but the criminals were able to change cars in a small side street half a mile or so from the incident and get away with £800 k's worth of goodies.

    It is more than possible that the people who did this awful act are no longer in France.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Am off home. But before I do I will leave my own little bit of provocation. (Hello Roger!!)

    There will be people in Israel this evening thinking to themselves: "Now do you understand what we have to put up with? Do you get it now?"
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,345
    rcs1000 said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    [edit]

    I thought - from reading my Ben Goldacre - that it was pseudonymised, with only part of the postcode and the year of birth being in the data.

    He pointed out however that, given you know the year that he was born, his rough postcode, and various parts of his medical history that are on public record, you wouldn't have any problem in identifying him in the list of 60m people.

    Oh, which book of his is that please?

    It was one of the chapters in "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that..."
    Excellent, thank you. Will get a copy.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Danny565
    This is "gorgeous George" we are talking about?
    Unless someone is going to offer him a better gig, he will stand as an MP.

  • Cyclefree said:

    Am off home. But before I do I will leave my own little bit of provocation. (Hello Roger!!)

    There will be people in Israel this evening thinking to themselves: "Now do you understand what we have to put up with? Do you get it now?"

    Correlation =/= Causation....

    :FFS:
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Smarmeron said:

    @Danny565
    This is "gorgeous George" we are talking about?
    Unless someone is going to offer him a better gig, he will stand as an MP.

    There were suggestions a while ago that he wouldn't, iirc.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Twitter seems to have named them. Brothers and a pn 18 yo - presumably the driver. French born but with names that sound like they are of the religion of peace.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    rcs1000 said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    It is true:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10565160/Health-records-of-every-NHS-patient-to-be-shared-in-vast-database.html

    The fact you can't recognise this - and entirely fail to acknowledge the other examples I've brought up - shows your irrationalism.

    A newspaper article reporting some people expressing concern doesn't make it true. The data is anonymous. Is it possible that there might be some risk of breaches of anonymity? Yes, of course. But if you think there is no risk of such breaches in the current NHS then you clearly have never had any contact with the medical profession. The current system is as leaky as a sieve. If I felt like it, and assuming I could persuade a close family member to cooperate (he/she wouldn't, I hope!), I could get you almost anyone's medical records.

    I do accept, though, that the government has made a poor job of explaining what this is about. It really is likely to be a significant step forward.
    The data is anonymous? Really? Only in do far as the name is removed. The date of birth and full postcode is to be included, not terribly anonymous is it.

    If the reasons given for the data scheme were actually true then they could be accomplished by only the year of birth and the first part of the post code being included.
    I thought - from reading my Ben Goldacre - that it was pseudonymised, with only part of the postcode and the year of birth being in the data.

    He pointed out however that, given you know the year that he was born, his rough postcode, and various parts of his medical history that are on public record, you wouldn't have any problem in identifying him in the list of 60m people.
    Oh, which book of his is that please?

    It was one of the chapters in "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that..."
    If politicians were honest they'd almost always reply "It a bit more complicated than that..."
  • Edin_RokzEdin_Rokz Posts: 516
    Edin_Rokz said:

    Very very odd that three armed terrorists can dissappear from view in a large western city. Do they have no cameras?

    The belief that by having cameras all over the place will stop crime or terrorism is really quite quaint. Any criminal / terrorist etc. worth their salt would find the areas not under surveillance and use that to change cars/vehicles probably more than once and then get on the Metro to where ever.

    In Edinburgh, there was a smash and grab against a well known jeweller on George Street, but the criminals were able to change cars in a small side street half a mile or so from the incident and get away with £800 k's worth of goodies.

    It is more than possible that the people who did this awful act are no longer in France.
    Forgot to add, There are sections of the French Security Services which have the reputation of being ruthless when let off the leash, which is what I suspect has happened now.

    I really would not like to be a member of any organisation involved, if only very lightly, in this atrocity.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    TGOHF said:

    Twitter seems to have named them. Brothers and a pn 18 yo - presumably the driver. French born but with names that sound like they are of the religion of peace.

    Is this twitter has named them or twitter has thrown out names a la the Boston Marathon.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    corporeal said:

    TGOHF said:

    Twitter seems to have named them. Brothers and a pn 18 yo - presumably the driver. French born but with names that sound like they are of the religion of peace.

    Is this twitter has named them or twitter has thrown out names a la the Boston Marathon.
    @TelegraphNews: Three #CharlieHebdo gunmen 'identified', according to French reports. Latest: http://t.co/2J4WQdJnTp
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Hope Not Hate's view of Charlie Hebdo, from 2012

    "This week we have a French satirical magazine, Charlie Hebdo, publishing obscene cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. Next week we will have Pam Geller's outrageous "savage" posters

    But I fear that this will only be the beginning. These Muslim haters know that any stupid stunt is going to cause a reaction, and probably a violent one at that. These Islamist extremists and Salafists, who are behind the vast majority of the protests, will happily respond by organising yet more demonstrations. The Muslim haters know that the images of Islamists attacking buildings and murdering people only reinforce the view of some that Islam is a violent and intolerant religion. The Islamists know that offensive and provocative cartoons will reinforce the view of some Muslims that the Western world hates Islam.

    There is a depressingly symbiotic relationship between the Muslim haters and the very people they claim to oppose. They need each other. In fact, they welcome the actions of the other to justify their own activities."

    http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick/a-downward-spiral-of-violence-and-extremism-2181
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    TGOHF said:

    Twitter seems to have named them. Brothers and a pn 18 yo - presumably the driver. French born but with names that sound like they are of the religion of peace.

    One seemingly a jihadist who was jailed for trying to go to Iraq...
  • One must wonder:

    Had Millitwunt not played sixth-form politics over Assad we might not have been here. No doubt we will never know; but would you really want this eejit to enter No. 10...?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited January 2015
    Edin_Rokz said:

    Edin_Rokz said:

    Very very odd that three armed terrorists can dissappear from view in a large western city. Do they have no cameras?

    The belief that by having cameras all over the place will stop crime or terrorism is really quite quaint. Any criminal / terrorist etc. worth their salt would find the areas not under surveillance and use that to change cars/vehicles probably more than once and then get on the Metro to where ever.

    In Edinburgh, there was a smash and grab against a well known jeweller on George Street, but the criminals were able to change cars in a small side street half a mile or so from the incident and get away with £800 k's worth of goodies.

    It is more than possible that the people who did this awful act are no longer in France.
    Forgot to add, There are sections of the French Security Services which have the reputation of being ruthless when let off the leash, which is what I suspect has happened now.

    I really would not like to be a member of any organisation involved, if only very lightly, in this atrocity.
    Mesrine?

    The French Interior Minister used the word 'neutralise' repeatedly when referring to the gunmen earlier. Expect a lynching on the Champs Élysées.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited January 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    Very very odd that three armed terrorists can dissappear from view in a large western city. Do they have no cameras?

    What? You don't genuinely believe there was a terrorist attach do you?
    This was clearly a set-up by the French security services, working together with MI5, the CIA and the Illuminati. ............(more waffle)
    rcs1000 I take it that you think I am hinting at some conspiracy. Untrue. I am just puzzled at the ineffectiveness of the French security folk.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    FluffyThoughts Or alternatively had Assad been toppled we may now have an ISIS government in Syria
  • BlueberryBlueberry Posts: 408
    All this talk of freedom of speech reminds me of when Jacqui Smith banned Geert Wilders from entering the UK because she thought his film Fitna might stir up religious hatred: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7885918.stm

    I suppose if he'd inserted a few gags in his film he'd have been allowed in because it would have been comedy? I joke: he was banned because he was a political opponent and not a cartoonist. I've never felt happy with the Religious Hatred Act that Labour brought in. People should be able to strongly criticise Islam be it through cartoons or serious films.

    Today's events also remind me of Pim Fortune and Theo van Gogh - RIP - who have also lost their lives to offended Muslims. And of course the shameful day when the authorities allowed offended Muslims to incite murder in Sloane Street, London outside the Danish Embassy.

    Very depressing day. Thought Douglas Murray was good though on how we're losing our freedoms. He's honest, and right.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited January 2015

    rcs1000 said:

    Very very odd that three armed terrorists can dissappear from view in a large western city. Do they have no cameras?

    What? You don't genuinely believe there was a terrorist attach do you?
    This was clearly a set-up by the French security services, working together with MI5, the CIA and the Illuminati. ............(more waffle)
    rcs1000 I take it that you think I am hinting at some conspiracy. Untrue. I am just puzzled at the ineffectiveness of the French security folk.
    Here's a curious tale for you, concerning Belgium not France. Completely unrelated to today's events, I should add.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabant_killers
  • HYUFD said:

    FluffyThoughts Or alternatively had Assad been toppled we may now have an ISIS government in Syria

    :spoof:
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Of all those cartoons done in response to Charlie Hebdo the one of the plane flying into the twin pencils is the most powerful.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    Fluffy If Assad had been toppled and replaced by a rebel regime the likelihood, as Libya shows, is that it would have rapidly been infiltrated and taken over by radical Islamists
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    If recently returned from Syria there is a reasonable chance they were trained by the CIA.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Nigel Farage seems to have upset Dan Hodges and his fellow lefties on twitter by saying the attacks are down to a "fifth column living in France and the UK who hate us"
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited January 2015
    unconfirmed reports the terrorists are "surrounded" near Reims...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Did Vince Cable resign today ?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    RodCrosby said:

    unconfirmed reports the terrorists are "surrounded" near Reims...

    @zerohedge: Paris Attack Suspects Arrested, Liberation Reports http://t.co/TuobApjfxp
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    edited January 2015

    Off-topic: I've just noticed an interesting feature of the GE forecast of may2015.com:

    http://may2015.com/category/seat-calculator/

    They are currently forecasting (excluding NI):

    Con 270
    Lab 285
    LD 23
    UKIP 3
    SNP 46
    Green 1
    Other 4

    on vote shares of 32.5% Con, 34% Lab.

    If they are right, that would mean that the Labour vote-efficiency advantage would be minimal in this election: Con 8.31 seats per percentage point of vote share, Lab 8.38. Presumably the main reason for this is the SNP sweeping up most of the board in Scotland.

    Food for thought.

    If you input 33/33/12/12 into that model, then Con win most seats:

    C 275, L 271, LD 32, UKIP, 3, SNP 46

    Remember how we've been told endlessly how biased the electoral system is and how Lab has a massive advantage?

    Well, not necessarily.

    Has anyone bet on Lab most votes, Con most seats? I'm sure it remains a very unlikely scenario but it's not the absolute 100% impossibility which has been perceived wisdom on here for the last few years.

    And of course Peter Kellner said a long time ago that if it is close on votes it will be close on seats - a view that was rubbished on here by numerous people.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    The Road to National Suicide

    Explains why there wasn't extremist violence in the 60s and 70s, but there is now

    http://commonsense.websanon.com/?p=214

    Er.....those of us alive in the 60s and 70s remember a rather different time, what with the Christian IRA bombing campaign......
    The IRA bombing campaign was done in the name of Irish nationalism, not Christianity.
    Sick f*cks either way......
    No they were not nice, but it was the disgraceful bigotry and discrimination against native Irish in Northern Ireland by the descendents of settlers who had forcibly appropriated the land that allowed them to flourish. Exactly the same as in Rhodesia.
    Northern Ireland really isn't (and wasn't) comparable to Rhodesia. One can't really talk about people in Northern Ireland being dispossessed unless one goes back a long way in time.

    Thats not how they saw it over there, other than that the Rhodesians got stopped in their tracks much sooner by Mugabe, Nkomo et al (et al being the USSR and Chinese governments)

    Fortunately the dreadful discrimination and gerrymandering has been reformed out of existence in NI so there is no longer a valid greivence for the terrorists to exploit and gain popular support.
    People who think they're in the wrong country will naturally think their grievances are worse than is actually the case.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,711

    Why is it assumed that "people on the left” will be not appalled by what’s happened in Paris?

    I’m on the left, and I’m in the "angry as well as appalled” camp. Who or what the hell do terrorists like this think they are?

    It’s very concerning for me personally as I’ve helped to arrange and have every intention of attending a series of lectures starting tomorrow week on “Islam in the Modern World.”
    I’m worried about the attendance we will get, and of course, although we’re in a quiet small town, whether there’ll be any “opposition”.

    okc is not the best person to speak on law-abiding citizenry. When the government launched a campaign against the Pharmacist industry's collusion with a £250-million fraud (fake free prescriptions) he screamed blue-murder.

    :retired-old-duffer-pensioner-alert:
    Liar!
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    isam said:

    Nigel Farage seems to have upset Dan Hodges and his fellow lefties on twitter by saying the attacks are down to a "fifth column living in France and the UK who hate us"

    Something which thickos like you will lap up. Did he talk about rapes in Scandinavia?
This discussion has been closed.