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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf’s PB “UKIP Map of the World” cartoon erupts again – th

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited December 2014 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf’s PB “UKIP Map of the World” cartoon erupts again – this time with a big story in the Mail

Check out the Mail story here

Read the full story here


«1

Comments

  • Honestly, some people need to get a sense of humour
  • Mr. Eagles, well, quite.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954
    What a load of berks, the parents that is, not UKIP for once.
  • Mr. Eagles, well, quite.

    Do you know what Thursday is the 2,232nd anniversary of?

    No cheating.
  • Ditto TSE. I hope Marf's sales of cartoons rocket as a result of this.
    I love her work, it's one of the gems of PB
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    People stupid enough to threaten to picket a school over this, are too stupid to have children. They should have allowed the picket to go ahead, identified the participants and taken their children into care.
  • Mr. Eagles, is it the first occasion the the kipper tie joke was told?

    Let's see... that'd be 218BC. I am very bad with dates, but I'd guess that's Cannae or Zama.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Honestly, some people need to get a sense of humour

    And learn to distinguish satire from reality
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    edited December 2014
    Personally I would have thought Kippers would have been sympathetic to Guernsey, Jersey etc, them being outside the EU etc.
  • Mr. Eagles, is it the first occasion the the kipper tie joke was told?

    Let's see... that'd be 218BC. I am very bad with dates, but I'd guess that's Cannae or Zama.

    Nearly, it is the anniversary of Hannibal getting lucky at Trebia
  • the story does not make much sense. I expect a couple of parents got the wrong end of the stick (perhaps thought it was an official UKIP poster) ,took faux outrage and spread the word to others who could not be bothered to find the context (as most people sensibly have better things to do tbh).
    Shows what false rumour can do
  • Needless to say I was only quoting (and poking fun at) 'Bongo bongo land' UKIP MEP Godfrey Bloom, who was mocked for his dinosaur ways and for using the term .... and funnily enough, I used the term 'poofters' in the cartoon (as a joke) BEFORE South Basildon's latest casualty, Kerry Smith's outburst. All this is grist for the mill for any cartoonist. To be fair, though, I ought to do a Labour Map of the World and a Tory Map of the World, too.

    The world is so nuts - don't you love it?
  • The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


  • as for the 'map' I don't find it that funny really (sorry MArf) .Seems a cheap obvious dig with little subtleness . Rather rude and juvenile
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954
    Freggles said:

    Honestly, some people need to get a sense of humour

    And learn to distinguish satire from reality
    When I was at school it was quite common for satirical cartoons or propaganda posters to be studied during our history lessons. A lot of them were offensive, but even us children realised they weren't meant to be taken literally.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366

    I doubt if many parents objected but they were the important people (in their own mind).
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited December 2014
    glw said:

    Freggles said:

    Honestly, some people need to get a sense of humour

    And learn to distinguish satire from reality
    When I was at school it was quite common for satirical cartoons or propaganda posters to be studied during our history lessons. A lot of them were offensive, but even us children realised they weren't meant to be taken literally.
    Yes but in a way it makes a logical circle that if the trendy liberals demonise UKIP by depicting them as racists,sexists etc (as this map does) then its not surprise if some parents take it that this actually might be an official UKIP poster.

    A few lessons namely, check facts , don't get outraged easily and perhaps (to the anti UKIPers) don't throw around cheap insults at them
  • Mr. Eagles, got lucky = killed more than half the Roman army?
  • Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited December 2014
    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections. If they were a music hall joke rentatrot wouldn't get so worked up about them. To many many of us that laughter resembles the school bully jeering and laughing with his cronies as those they thought beneath them.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections.

    Name a single achievement from those MEPs ? Bar troughing .
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    Have a look at "The Atlas of Prejudice" by Yanko Tsvetkov site.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Seems a shame - once again proof that having a sense of humour is dangerous for anyone in the public eye.
  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections.

    Name a single achievement from those MEPs ? Bar troughing .
    Indeed. What has UKIP done with its contingent of MEPs?

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220

    Needless to say I was only quoting (and poking fun at) 'Bongo bongo land' UKIP MEP Godfrey Bloom, who was mocked for his dinosaur ways and for using the term .... and funnily enough, I used the term 'poofters' in the cartoon (as a joke) BEFORE South Basildon's latest casualty, Kerry Smith's outburst. All this is grist for the mill for any cartoonist. To be fair, though, I ought to do a Labour Map of the World and a Tory Map of the World, too.

    The world is so nuts - don't you love it?

    The irony is that the cartoon could actually end up helping Ukip as it makes him look like the victim of political correctness gone made.

    That said, things like the Ukip candidate in Basildon, or the Emily Thornberry flag tweet, are made out to be the biggest thing to have ever happened, but they soon get forgotten.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited December 2014

    Seems a shame - once again proof that having a sense of humour is dangerous for anyone in the public eye.

    It does Nick . Then again if parliament makes laws criminalising certain racist publications then on the face of it (without knowing the context) somebody could think that map is pretty racist. How does the law distinguish between 'its only a laugh we don't really mean it' from proper racism?
    Not easy to do imo and that's why its sometimes better to make as fewer a laws in this area as possible.
  • I doubt this will do the candidate any harm at all. Indeed, it will raise his profile. It is unalloyed good news for Marf too, who gets loads of free advertising of her work. Meanwhile, the Daily Mail gets a story to fill its pages.

    Win-win-win. Only the school looks foolish.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.

    That's because it's coming from the establishment. Closing ranks and promoting discrimination against a non racist and non sectarian party. It's not just political, or it wouldn't involve child services, schools etc. Which is obviously a despicable affront to democracy, but what's new?
  • FPT

    antifrank said:


    "The voting age in the USA is 18 and the drinking age is 21. These anomalies can be found in many countries."

    That doesn't make them right. I am sure you are not advocating adopting all of the US political system so it hardly advances your case to pick out bits that you happen to agree with to support your argument.

    The basic principle that must apply is that if you consider someone mature enough to bear the responsibilities of choosing who governs the country then you must logically also consider them mature enough to bear all the other responsibilities of adulthood. Picking and choosing just those issues that suit your own political or personal agenda is illogical.

    As it stands you are advocating a system where someone is responsible enough to vote but not responsible enough to buy themselves a mobile phone contract.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections.

    Name a single achievement from those MEPs ? Bar troughing .
    Indeed. What has UKIP done with its contingent of MEPs?

    Getting the number of MEPs and % of the vote that they did at the Euros probably helped convince more people they were worth voting for in subsequent domestic elections, and may have helped convince defectors to defect.

    That is probably more important to a party that wants out of the EU than achieving anything in terms of EU legislature, and the people who voted for them knew that
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections.

    Name a single achievement from those MEPs ? Bar troughing .
    Indeed. What has UKIP done with its contingent of MEPs?

    What have any party's MEPs achieved? The Commission has all of the power; the Parliament's just there to con people into thinking they actually matter.
  • What a hilarious story!

    Marf's cartoon is great. I look forward to the Tory and Labour equivalents.

    Don't forget the LibDems, though, Marf. And how about the SNP?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections.

    Name a single achievement from those MEPs ? Bar troughing .
    Indeed. What has UKIP done with its contingent of MEPs?

    What have the Lib Dems done with theirs, do tell. They are after all 'the party of in' -the party that tells us all we can reform the EU from within. What brilliant achievements have they effected using their democratic rights (before the public booted them out that is)? We're all ears.
  • F1: more heads roll at Ferrari:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30507467
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited December 2014
    antifrank said:

    I doubt this will do the candidate any harm at all. Indeed, it will raise his profile. It is unalloyed good news for Marf too, who gets loads of free advertising of her work. Meanwhile, the Daily Mail gets a story to fill its pages.

    Win-win-win. Only the school looks foolish.

    The school looks foolish from our point of view and knowledge (we know the story behind it). Most normal people do not and so when they see something like this map it will cause arguments and they will see it as more sinister than it is to us.

    Better not to draw such maps imo .They could get the artist in trouble and also unfairly portrays UKIP in too juvenile a way
  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections.

    Name a single achievement from those MEPs ? Bar troughing .
    Indeed. What has UKIP done with its contingent of MEPs?

    Shown they can win national elections and in the process forced the other parties to move substantially on matters of both Immigration and the EU.

    And that is the whole point. They have utterly changed the narrative and in the process helped move us closer to leaving the EU entirely.

    As an aside as someone who does research for the anti-EU movement they are also hugely useful to me and others in highlighting the continuing idiocy of the EU which would otherwise be ignored or played down by other UK MEPs.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Firstly, and somewhat atypically, credit to the UKIP candidate who was happy to post Marf's drawing despite the fact that it was clearly mocking his own party.

    Secondly, whatever views one has about the right age for people to have the vote quite clearly a significant percentage of parents were in fact too stupid to have a child. Obviously they were capable of the physical act but they were not capable of giving a child the guidance, advice and comprehension of the world needed to produce a competent adult.

    If the UK citizenship test does not require applicants to produce at least 2 examples of self mockery on a random subject it is truly not fit for purpose.
  • Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited December 2014

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections.

    Name a single achievement from those MEPs ? Bar troughing .
    Indeed. What has UKIP done with its contingent of MEPs?


    Provided a genuine opposition in a rubber stamp "parliament" that, until they came along, made the Volkskammer look confrontational towards the executive.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzNSp4aXTxU
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited December 2014
    As banned by Castle Community School, makes a wonderful Christmas gift - t shirt, map, poster, tea towel.

    Perhaps some of the concened parents should firstly recall words attributed to Voltaire. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

    Secondly they could be more concerned not so much by ideas of one of UKIP's candidate, but by the inadequate schooling offered by the college.

    http://www.castle.kent.sch.uk/assets/Uploads/Files/Newsletter/2012-2013/Ofsted-Report-2.pdf

    Might even cause a surge of visits to PB.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    antifrank said:

    I doubt this will do the candidate any harm at all. Indeed, it will raise his profile. It is unalloyed good news for Marf too, who gets loads of free advertising of her work. Meanwhile, the Daily Mail gets a story to fill its pages.

    Win-win-win. Only the school looks foolish.

    The school looks foolish from our point of view and knowledge (we know the story behind it). Most normal people do not and so when they see something like this map it will cause arguments and they wee it as more sinister than it is to us.

    Better not to draw such maps imo .They could get the artist in trouble and also unfairly portrays UKIP in too juvenile a way
    It's more convenient, and from an individual perspective therefore more sensible, but not better I'd say. That people see things as more sinister than they may well be and overreact as a result due to not understanding backstory and other context is not a reason to stop doing things I think.

  • Mr. Away, I'd be surprised if that's the case. I think most people will instantly spot it as a piss take.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,960
    edited December 2014

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections.

    Name a single achievement from those MEPs ? Bar troughing .
    Indeed. What has UKIP done with its contingent of MEPs?

    Allied themselves with an extremist party/MEP that Marie Le Pen wouldn't touch to get more taxpayers' money?
  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections.

    Name a single achievement from those MEPs ? Bar troughing .
    Indeed. What has UKIP done with its contingent of MEPs?

    What do any of them do?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited December 2014
    kle4 said:

    antifrank said:

    I doubt this will do the candidate any harm at all. Indeed, it will raise his profile. It is unalloyed good news for Marf too, who gets loads of free advertising of her work. Meanwhile, the Daily Mail gets a story to fill its pages.

    Win-win-win. Only the school looks foolish.

    The school looks foolish from our point of view and knowledge (we know the story behind it). Most normal people do not and so when they see something like this map it will cause arguments and they wee it as more sinister than it is to us.

    Better not to draw such maps imo .They could get the artist in trouble and also unfairly portrays UKIP in too juvenile a way
    It's more convenient, and from an individual perspective therefore more sensible, but not better I'd say. That people see things as more sinister than they may well be and overreact as a result due to not understanding backstory and other context is not a reason to stop doing things I think.

    If the artist and others portray UKIP as racist ,then they cannot blame others for thinking that and hence thinking this map is real and from UKIP itself.
  • Oh no - not Marf causing trouble again!

    Mike, you are going to have her put on a short lead from now on. Perhaps the Moderators could be asked to check all future cartoons to ensure that they are politically correct, unbiased, even-handed, honest, true, inoffensive, pure and give equal status to all parties, including the disadvantaged, the lame, the meek, the humourless and the plug stupid.

    Otherwise, she has to go.

  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    Dover will be an interesting contest in next year's election, seems like a genuine three way battle.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections.

    Name a single achievement from those MEPs ? Bar troughing .
    Indeed. What has UKIP done with its contingent of MEPs?

    Allied themselves with an extremist party/MEP that Marie Le Pen wouldn't touch to get more taxpayers' money?
    There's a lot of it about: http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/06/08/tories-accused-of-working-with-extremists-in-europe

  • Mr. Punter, I believe putting people on short leads was recently made illegal by the state, along with certain other acts.
  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    The demonisation of UKIP is seeming to me to be turning into classic hard left rentamob shout down and shut down debate tactics. Whats perhaps unusual is that the right wing tabloids are joining in too as UKIP threaten their beloved tories ability to ever get a majority again.


    Nah everyone is just laughing at them - the Trumpton Twitter filling the gap that Spitting Image used to fill. Farage is lucky the show is no longer around.
    Yeah, just like they were before the Euro Elections.

    Name a single achievement from those MEPs ? Bar troughing .
    Indeed. What has UKIP done with its contingent of MEPs?

    Allied themselves with an extremist party/MEP that Marie Le Pen wouldn't touch to get more taxpayers' money?
    There's a lot of it about: http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/06/08/tories-accused-of-working-with-extremists-in-europe

    Have any of them been turned down by Marine Le Pen?
  • Mr. Punter, I believe putting people on short leads was recently made illegal by the state, along with certain other acts.

    But Morris, some of us adore that sort of thing..... ;-)
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited December 2014

    Mr. Away, I'd be surprised if that's the case. I think most people will instantly spot it as a piss take.

    well some won't and maybe they are the thick ones but isn't racial and other hate laws designed to protect more vulnerable people? People with low intelligence could be classed as vulnerable and I am not sure how the law deals with the defence 'it was only a piss take' ?
    Could the BNP use that as a defence or are some people more presumed to be guilty given the same facts ? opens a can of worms and the really stupid actions in this are those that make such maps or make sweeping statements about any party really
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    What a hilarious story!

    Marf's cartoon is great. I look forward to the Tory and Labour equivalents.

    Don't forget the LibDems, though, Marf. And how about the SNP?

    Not as much fodder for the others, I would fear, at least for Tories, Labour and the LDs. Too homogenized, at least compared to UKIP. I think you need the mainstream of a party to be really intense for these to really work, so the SNP's might work well, I would be interested in seeing one.

    The Tory one could contain much of the same as UKIP's to represent the fears of the right wing of the party (or perceptions of their fears), with the SE taken up with a space for the word UKIP and some insulting nickname, with Labour and the LDs maybe just reversed from the UKIP one, but not much of a running theme beside something about Tories in england outside the 'good' bits and Scotland being 'property of Labour Party'.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689

    FPT

    antifrank said:


    "The voting age in the USA is 18 and the drinking age is 21. These anomalies can be found in many countries."

    That doesn't make them right. I am sure you are not advocating adopting all of the US political system so it hardly advances your case to pick out bits that you happen to agree with to support your argument.

    The basic principle that must apply is that if you consider someone mature enough to bear the responsibilities of choosing who governs the country then you must logically also consider them mature enough to bear all the other responsibilities of adulthood. Picking and choosing just those issues that suit your own political or personal agenda is illogical.

    As it stands you are advocating a system where someone is responsible enough to vote but not responsible enough to buy themselves a mobile phone contract.

    This is why I advocate a vote should be earned not given on a certain date

    Contribute to the society you live in and you get a say on how the country is governed as you have shown you value our society.

    I see little reason to concern ourselves with the views of those who don't contribute in anyway whatsoever, whether that contribution is by the route of tax or voluntary work within the community

  • Artist said:

    Dover will be an interesting contest in next year's election, seems like a genuine three way battle.

    David Little is a strong candidate. He's in with a real chance.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    There are to be 650 Ukip candidates in GE2015,promising an entertaining campaign.The more Ukip candidates debate in public the greater the probability they will hang themselves so I say let them speak.
  • Mr. Punter, pleasure and personal freedoms have no role in modern Britain! Hand yourself in for immediate re-education at once.

    Mr. Away, there's a worrying drive towards censorship, driven by a combination of angry chaps with beards (cf the absence of Mohammed during the Jesus and Mo business) and right-on desperate-to-be-offended-on-your-behalf idiots. We need stronger freedom of speech, including the vital right to take the piss.

    We should have our own equivalent of the First Amendment.
  • Mr. Punter, pleasure and personal freedoms have no role in modern Britain! Hand yourself in for immediate re-education at once.

    Mr. Away, there's a worrying drive towards censorship, driven by a combination of angry chaps with beards (cf the absence of Mohammed during the Jesus and Mo business) and right-on desperate-to-be-offended-on-your-behalf idiots. We need stronger freedom of speech, including the vital right to take the piss.

    We should have our own equivalent of the First Amendment.

    We do not need a written constitution.

    I prefer our way of setting constitutional precedents by simply writing a letter to the Times.
  • dr_spyn said:

    As banned by Castle Community School, makes a wonderful Christmas gift - t shirt, map, poster, tea towel.

    Perhaps some of the concened parents should firstly recall words attributed to Voltaire. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

    Secondly they could be more concerned not so much by ideas of one of UKIP's candidate, but by the inadequate schooling offered by the college.

    http://www.castle.kent.sch.uk/assets/Uploads/Files/Newsletter/2012-2013/Ofsted-Report-2.pdf

    Might even cause a surge of visits to PB.

    What a great idea! I'll be selling them tomorrow morning outside the school gates. :-)
  • ZenPagan said:

    FPT

    antifrank said:


    "The voting age in the USA is 18 and the drinking age is 21. These anomalies can be found in many countries."

    That doesn't make them right. I am sure you are not advocating adopting all of the US political system so it hardly advances your case to pick out bits that you happen to agree with to support your argument.

    The basic principle that must apply is that if you consider someone mature enough to bear the responsibilities of choosing who governs the country then you must logically also consider them mature enough to bear all the other responsibilities of adulthood. Picking and choosing just those issues that suit your own political or personal agenda is illogical.

    As it stands you are advocating a system where someone is responsible enough to vote but not responsible enough to buy themselves a mobile phone contract.

    This is why I advocate a vote should be earned not given on a certain date

    Contribute to the society you live in and you get a say on how the country is governed as you have shown you value our society.

    I see little reason to concern ourselves with the views of those who don't contribute in anyway whatsoever, whether that contribution is by the route of tax or voluntary work within the community

    Something advocated by the late great Science Fiction author Robert Heinlein. To be fair he did go a bit loopy in later life but the basic principle of earning your citizenship through public service is something he articulated very well.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    @Marf

    Your best cartoon of the year, so far at least. No such thing as "bad publicity"!

    I am as happy to tease kippers as the next man, but this story is ridiculous. It shows the right sort of self-deprecation to post it on Facebook, much the same spirit as my LD membership card with a picture of sandals and socks.

    Lighten up! This guy has more insight than most.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    kle4 said:

    antifrank said:

    I doubt this will do the candidate any harm at all. Indeed, it will raise his profile. It is unalloyed good news for Marf too, who gets loads of free advertising of her work. Meanwhile, the Daily Mail gets a story to fill its pages.

    Win-win-win. Only the school looks foolish.

    The school looks foolish from our point of view and knowledge (we know the story behind it). Most normal people do not and so when they see something like this map it will cause arguments and they wee it as more sinister than it is to us.

    Better not to draw such maps imo .They could get the artist in trouble and also unfairly portrays UKIP in too juvenile a way
    It's more convenient, and from an individual perspective therefore more sensible, but not better I'd say. That people see things as more sinister than they may well be and overreact as a result due to not understanding backstory and other context is not a reason to stop doing things I think.

    If the artist and others portray UKIP as racist ,then they cannot blame others for thinking that and hence thinking this map is real and from UKIP itself.
    I don't think artists can blame people for taking their own interpretations of their work - which may coincide perfectly with what the artist intended or may be the total opposite - but that's not a reason to stop producing art, with as serious or not a message, if any, that they want, just because other people will react to it. A reaction is surely part of the point. If I read your logic correctly, many un-mainstream positions or ideas should never be uttered, even if they are worth hearing or part of a wider debate, if many might for instance rightly or wrongly take them as racist or something else offensive. Even if you genuinely believe, or are having a joke, don't cause trouble by saying something that will provoke a reaction. That surely cannot be what you are saying, but in my addled mind it looks that way - better to stay silent, or never ever joke about something serious, because it will offend or people will take the joke seriously.
  • Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited December 2014
    To be honest it is the story on the last two paragraphs of that article that is quite worrying:

    a chairman of governers asked to resign after joining UKIP because "Ukip’s policies were against the ethos of the school."?

    Are we really becoming the sort of society that demonises legitimate mass membership political parties to the extent that members are excluded from responsible positions in society?

    Political opposition is one thing, demonising and bullying is another matter entirely. And that is why I feel moved to come on here and defend UKIP (which I am not a member of and never have been)

  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689

    ZenPagan said:

    FPT

    antifrank said:


    "The voting age in the USA is 18 and the drinking age is 21. These anomalies can be found in many countries."

    That doesn't make them right. I am sure you are not advocating adopting all of the US political system so it hardly advances your case to pick out bits that you happen to agree with to support your argument.

    The basic principle that must apply is that if you consider someone mature enough to bear the responsibilities of choosing who governs the country then you must logically also consider them mature enough to bear all the other responsibilities of adulthood. Picking and choosing just those issues that suit your own political or personal agenda is illogical.

    As it stands you are advocating a system where someone is responsible enough to vote but not responsible enough to buy themselves a mobile phone contract.

    This is why I advocate a vote should be earned not given on a certain date

    Contribute to the society you live in and you get a say on how the country is governed as you have shown you value our society.

    I see little reason to concern ourselves with the views of those who don't contribute in anyway whatsoever, whether that contribution is by the route of tax or voluntary work within the community

    Something advocated by the late great Science Fiction author Robert Heinlein. To be fair he did go a bit loopy in later life but the basic principle of earning your citizenship through public service is something he articulated very well.
    Starship troopers was indeed a thought provoking book though the film shamed it totally. He wrote many such but as you say his later books were a little off the wall

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    There are to be 650 Ukip candidates in GE2015,promising an entertaining campaign.The more Ukip candidates debate in public the greater the probability they will hang themselves so I say let them speak.

    Whether they hang themselves as a result or are raised up in adoration by the masses in response, they promise to make things much more interesting and some will say things no-one else will say, some of which we may need to hear whether it is right or wrong, so the more standing the better I say, good on them for fielding a full complement.
  • To be honest it is the story on the last two paragraphs of that article that is quite worrying:

    a chairman of governers asked to resign after joining UKIP because "Ukip’s policies were against the ethos of the school."?

    Are we really becoming the sort of society that demonises legitimate mass membership political parties to the extent that members are excluded from responsible positions in society?

    Political opposition is one thing, demonising and bullying is another matter entirely. And that is why I feel moved to come on here and defend UKIP (which I am not a member of and never have been)

    I highly doubt he would be asked to leave if he had been found to be a member of the Socialist Workers Party....
  • To be honest it is the story on the last two paragraphs of that article that is quite worrying:

    a chairman of governers asked to resign after joining UKIP because "Ukip’s policies were against the ethos of the school."?

    Are we really becoming the sort of society that demonises legitimate mass membership political parties to the extent that members are excluded from responsible positions in society?

    Political opposition is one thing, demonising and bullying is another matter entirely. And that is why I feel moved to come on here and defend UKIP (which I am not a member of and never have been)

    I highly doubt he would be asked to leave if he had been found to be a member of the Socialist Workers Party....
    Exactly
  • Mr. Beds, that's very unsettling, as was (even at the time) the removal of foster children from a good couple who happened to support UKIP. If Rotherham's children services had spent less time on that nonsense they might've done a slightly better job elsewhere.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    ZenPagan said:

    ZenPagan said:

    FPT

    antifrank said:


    "The voting age in the USA is 18 and the drinking age is 21. These anomalies can be found in many countries."

    That doesn't make them right. I am sure you are not advocating adopting all of the US political system so it hardly advances your case to pick out bits that you happen to agree with to support your argument.

    The basic principle that must apply is that if you consider someone mature enough to bear the responsibilities of choosing who governs the country then you must logically also consider them mature enough to bear all the other responsibilities of adulthood. Picking and choosing just those issues that suit your own political or personal agenda is illogical.

    As it stands you are advocating a system where someone is responsible enough to vote but not responsible enough to buy themselves a mobile phone contract.

    This is why I advocate a vote should be earned not given on a certain date

    Contribute to the society you live in and you get a say on how the country is governed as you have shown you value our society.

    I see little reason to concern ourselves with the views of those who don't contribute in anyway whatsoever, whether that contribution is by the route of tax or voluntary work within the community

    Something advocated by the late great Science Fiction author Robert Heinlein. To be fair he did go a bit loopy in later life but the basic principle of earning your citizenship through public service is something he articulated very well.
    Starship troopers was indeed a thought provoking book though the film shamed it totally.

    That film is awesome though. Not denying it shamed the book (I've not read it, but I believe the title was slapped on to an existing film script which had a few amendments to make it barely tied in), but it was great and cheesy fun.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    dr_spyn said:

    As banned by Castle Community School, makes a wonderful Christmas gift - t shirt, map, poster, tea towel.

    Perhaps some of the concened parents should firstly recall words attributed to Voltaire. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

    Secondly they could be more concerned not so much by ideas of one of UKIP's candidate, but by the inadequate schooling offered by the college.

    http://www.castle.kent.sch.uk/assets/Uploads/Files/Newsletter/2012-2013/Ofsted-Report-2.pdf

    Might even cause a surge of visits to PB.

    What a great idea! I'll be selling them tomorrow morning outside the school gates. :-)
    What's my cut?

    You should run off a limited edition of the cartoon, just in case.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    kle4 said:

    ZenPagan said:

    ZenPagan said:

    FPT

    antifrank said:


    "The voting age in the USA is 18 and the drinking age is 21. These anomalies can be found in many countries."

    That doesn't make them right. I am sure you are not advocating adopting all of the US political system so it hardly advances your case to pick out bits that you happen to agree with to support your argument.

    The basic principle that must apply is that if you consider someone mature enough to bear the responsibilities of choosing who governs the country then you must logically also consider them mature enough to bear all the other responsibilities of adulthood. Picking and choosing just those issues that suit your own political or personal agenda is illogical.

    As it stands you are advocating a system where someone is responsible enough to vote but not responsible enough to buy themselves a mobile phone contract.

    This is why I advocate a vote should be earned not given on a certain date

    Contribute to the society you live in and you get a say on how the country is governed as you have shown you value our society.

    I see little reason to concern ourselves with the views of those who don't contribute in anyway whatsoever, whether that contribution is by the route of tax or voluntary work within the community

    Something advocated by the late great Science Fiction author Robert Heinlein. To be fair he did go a bit loopy in later life but the basic principle of earning your citizenship through public service is something he articulated very well.
    Starship troopers was indeed a thought provoking book though the film shamed it totally.

    That film is awesome though. Not denying it shamed the book (I've not read it, but I believe the title was slapped on to an existing film script which had a few amendments to make it barely tied in), but it was great and cheesy fun.
    The film may have been good as a stand alone product. However the book that was written was a truly good book and the film took its themes and trashed them. I urge you to read the book it is a slim volume but contains much to think about

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    This is a bit like me and English batsmen:



    Derby 1-2 Chelsea - Craig Bryson (71 mins)

    Posted at 21:18
    There it is! Derby do give us an entertaining finish! Lovely goal too at the end of a prolonged spell of possession. Johnny Russell sets the ball back to Craig Bryson, edge of the box, he doesn't thrash at it and side-foots the curler in off the far post. Petr Cech had no chance.

    We have a game on!

    Derby 0-2 Chelsea

    Posted at 21:16
    Steve McClaren continues with his touchline coaching. An odd night for him to assess I guess- they haven't played badly, far from it, but at the same time Chelsea have been untroubled.

    Just classic.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Mr. Beds, that's very unsettling, as was (even at the time) the removal of foster children from a good couple who happened to support UKIP. If Rotherham's children services had spent less time on that nonsense they might've done a slightly better job elsewhere.

    Mr. Beds, that's very unsettling, as was (even at the time) the removal of foster children from a good couple who happened to support UKIP. If Rotherham's children services had spent less time on that nonsense they might've done a slightly better job elsewhere.

    Michael Crick
    @MichaelLCrick Jane Collins, now an MEP, got a Ukip record 12.2% in Barnsley Central, March 2011; then Ukip record 21.7% in Rotherham, November 2012.

    ..and in the SYPCC it was neck and neck in Rotherham

    Ladbrokes 1/4 Labour

    http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/rotherham/winning-party

    I will lay 1/3 in any size anyone likes
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    To be honest it is the story on the last two paragraphs of that article that is quite worrying:

    a chairman of governers asked to resign after joining UKIP because "Ukip’s policies were against the ethos of the school."?

    Are we really becoming the sort of society that demonises legitimate mass membership political parties to the extent that members are excluded from responsible positions in society?

    Political opposition is one thing, demonising and bullying is another matter entirely. And that is why I feel moved to come on here and defend UKIP (which I am not a member of and never have been)

    I had thought we reached something of a watershed a few years ago with that UKIP foster parents case when it seemed other political leaders for the first time were saying that UKIP was a mainstream party and how outrageous it was and and all that, but it appears there is a ways to go.

    It's bloody annoying really, as one of my problems with some kippers is their inability to not take things so seriously all the time, and to overstate a sense of persecution from the evil LibLbCon MSM establishment machine, but then you get these stories where Kippers have been treated akin to lepers and I therefore have to qualify any such comment with that fact that there is some basis for it. Most inconvenient.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    ZenPagan said:

    kle4 said:

    ZenPagan said:

    ZenPagan said:

    FPT

    antifrank said:


    "The voting age in the USA is 18 and the drinking age is 21. These anomalies can be found in many countries."

    That doesn't make them right. I am sure you are not advocating adopting all of the US political system so it hardly advances your case to pick out bits that you happen to agree with to support your argument.

    The basic principle that must apply is that if you consider someone mature enough to bear the responsibilities of choosing who governs the country then you must logically also consider them mature enough to bear all the other responsibilities of adulthood. Picking and choosing just those issues that suit your own political or personal agenda is illogical.

    As it stands you are advocating a system where someone is responsible enough to vote but not responsible enough to buy themselves a mobile phone contract.

    This is why I advocate a vote should be earned not given on a certain date

    Contribute to the society you live in and you get a say on how the country is governed as you have shown you value our society.

    I see little reason to concern ourselves with the views of those who don't contribute in anyway whatsoever, whether that contribution is by the route of tax or voluntary work within the community

    So

    That film is awesome though. Not denying it shamed the book (I've not read it, but I believe the title was slapped on to an existing film script which had a few amendments to make it barely tied in), but it was great and cheesy fun.
    The film may have been good as a stand alone product. However the book that was written was a truly good book and the film took its themes and trashed them. I urge you to read the book it is a slim volume but contains much to think about

    I am sure - an unfortunate victim of slapping any IP onto a preexisting script to the annoyance of true fans and possible detriment of the IP, as why would people want to read the book version of a fun but silly movie?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited December 2014
    Heh heh. This little episode separates the goats from asses, it seems to me.

    And I'd just like to put in a good word for David L, (I assume it's the same?) who comes over on these pages as decent, civilised, and thoughtful.

    And Marf: sock it to em!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ZenPagan said:

    kle4 said:

    ZenPagan said:

    ZenPagan said:

    FPT

    antifrank said:


    "The voting age in the USA is 18 and the drinking age is 21. These anomalies can be found in many countries."


    The basic principle that must apply is that if you consider someone mature enough to bear the responsibilities of choosing who governs the country then you must logically also consider them mature enough to bear all the other responsibilities of adulthood. Picking and choosing just those issues that suit your own political or personal agenda is illogical.

    As it stands you are advocating a system where someone is responsible enough to vote but not responsible enough to buy themselves a mobile phone contract.

    This is why I advocate a vote should be earned not given on a certain date

    Contribute to the society you live in and you get a say on how the country is governed as you have shown you value our society.

    I see little reason to concern ourselves with the views of those who don't contribute in anyway whatsoever, whether that contribution is by the route of tax or voluntary work within the community

    Something advocated by the late great Science Fiction author Robert Heinlein. To be fair he did go a bit loopy in later life but the basic principle of earning your citizenship through public service is something he articulated very well.
    Starship troopers was indeed a thought provoking book though the film shamed it totally.

    That film is awesome though. Not denying it shamed the book (I've not read it, but I believe the title was slapped on to an existing film script which had a few amendments to make it barely tied in), but it was great and cheesy fun.
    The film may have been good as a stand alone product. However the book that was written was a truly good book and the film took its themes and trashed them. I urge you to read the book it is a slim volume but contains much to think about

    Both book and film are terrific. The book is quite wordy with much of it taken up by the civics teachers lecture, hardly any action against the bugs. The opening scene where the troopers attack the skinnies city does preshadow the fascistic feel of the film, which does have rather suspect Nazi style uniforms for the heroes. Verhoeven always likes to mix up good and evil a bit, creating some really interesting moral ambiguities. Black Book even more so with its Gestapo chief as hero and love interest.

    The book Starship Troopers is a book of its time, but still apparently very popular in the US military.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Sobering and intelligent commentary.

    To be honest it is the story on the last two paragraphs of that article that is quite worrying:

    a chairman of governers asked to resign after joining UKIP because "Ukip’s policies were against the ethos of the school."?

    Are we really becoming the sort of society that demonises legitimate mass membership political parties to the extent that members are excluded from responsible positions in society?

    Political opposition is one thing, demonising and bullying is another matter entirely. And that is why I feel moved to come on here and defend UKIP (which I am not a member of and never have been)

    I largely agree. I've seen it at the other end of the spectrum - Communists in Germany sacked as postmen and engine-drivers during the Cold War, since "state employees should not have extreme views". In my personal interactions with people with (in my opinion) extreme views of any kind, I've always judged them by what they say and do when they're working with me, not what they think outside the context. I've worked with BNP members on a conservation project and a games project, and a Maoist on a staff representation issue. What they privately thought was absolutely none of my business, and in both cases I only knew it by accident. If a UKIP governor starts trying to insist on a "patriotic" curriculum or the like, I'd be concerned; if not, who cares?

    The Maoist's story was curious, though, and perhaps in some ways a counter-example showing that there are some risks in letting extremists take senior positions. I later learned from a mutual friend that he'd been ordered by his party to obtain a senior position in Ciba-Geigy as part of their effort to make a "long march through the institutions" and prepare for the revolution. When he got into management, he found that the party had wound itself up and the revolution was definitively off the menu. He scratched his head, shrugged and simply became a legitimate and highly competent manager.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    kle4 said:

    ZenPagan said:

    kle4 said:

    ZenPagan said:

    ZenPagan said:

    FPT

    antifrank said:


    "The voting age in the USA is 18 and the drinking age is 21. These anomalies can be found in many countries."

    That doesn't make them right. I am sure you are not advocating adopting all of the US political system so it hardly advances your case to pick out bits that you happen to agree with to support your argument.

    The basic principle that must apply is that if you consider someone mature enough to bear the responsibilities of choosing who governs the country then you must logically also consider them mature enough to bear all the other responsibilities of adulthood. Picking and choosing just those issues that suit your own political or personal agenda is illogical.

    As it stands you are advocating a system where someone is responsible enough to vote but not responsible enough to buy themselves a mobile phone contract.

    This is why I advocate a vote should be earned not given on a certain date

    Contribute to the society you live in and you get a say on how the country is governed as you have shown you value our society.

    I see little reason to concern ourselves with the views of those who don't contribute in anyway whatsoever, whether that contribution is by the route of tax or voluntary work within the community

    So

    That film is awesome though. Not denying it shamed the book (I've not read it, but I believe the title was slapped on to an existing film script which had a few amendments to make it barely tied in), but it was great and cheesy fun.
    The film may have been good as a stand alone product. However the book that was written was a truly good book and the film took its themes and trashed them. I urge you to read the book it is a slim volume but contains much to think about

    I am sure - an unfortunate victim of slapping any IP onto a preexisting script to the annoyance of true fans and possible detriment of the IP, as why would people want to read the book version of a fun but silly movie?
    That is exactly my complaint really if they took a different title I would probably have enjoyed the film as a simple movie. The fact that they used the title however and put many I am sure off bothering with the book was a huge negative to me.

    I read the book at 17 and it was a book that espoused many views that were diametically opposed to what I believed in. While at the time I didn't change my beliefs it did cause me to examine them deeply and conclude things were not quite as black and white as I believed them to be, you can't really ask for more than that in a book

  • @Marf

    Your best cartoon of the year, so far at least. No such thing as "bad publicity"!

    I am as happy to tease kippers as the next man, but this story is ridiculous. It shows the right sort of self-deprecation to post it on Facebook, much the same spirit as my LD membership card with a picture of sandals and socks.

    Lighten up! This guy has more insight than most.

    Absolutely, Fox.

    It's not Marf's subtlest cartoon ever but goodness me it seems to have shot over a few heads. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, it's a pop at people who run around with stereotypes in their head, i.e., the sort of people who might just imagine that Kippers really do think like that. David Little and co had no problem seeing it that way, and also laughing at a certain type of Kipper who probably doesn't exist but can be caricatured in that way.

    If you and i played with such stereotypes, we'd be in trouble. But Marf's a cartoonist and it's her job to play off them and make them funny. Political correctness has no place in her art.

  • Her Majesty will rue the day

    Senior figures in Whitehall and Downing Street became so fearful that the Scottish independence referendum could lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom that the Queen was asked to make a rare public intervention in the final days of the campaign.

    Britain’s most senior civil servant and the Queen’s private secretary crafted a carefully worded intervention by the monarch, as No 10 experienced what one senior official described as “meltdown” in the closing stages of the campaign after polls showed growing support for a yes vote.

    The discussions between Sir Jeremy Heywood, the cabinet secretary, and Sir Christopher Geidt for the palace, led the Queen to issue an appeal to the people of Scotland four days before the referendum in September to “think very carefully” before casting their vote.

    The delicate negotiations in the runup to the intervention by the Queen, which were described by one senior Whitehall source as a warning to voters that they were facing “a decision filled with foreboding”, are revealed by the Guardian on the final day of a two-part series about the Scottish referendum campaign.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/16/scottish-independence-queen-intervene-yes-vote-fears
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    edited December 2014
    Toms said:

    Heh heh. This little episode separates the goats from asses, it seems to me.

    And I'd just like to put in a good word for David L, (I assume it's the same?) who comes over on these pages as decent, civilised, and thoughtful.

    And Marf: sock it to em!

    Blush. Thanks very much.

    Edit. Sorry, just read that again. For the avoidance of doubt I am not David Little.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Sobering and intelligent commentary.

    To be honest it is the story on the last two paragraphs of that article that is quite worrying:

    a chairman of governers asked to resign after joining UKIP because "Ukip’s policies were against the ethos of the school."?

    Are we really becoming the sort of society that demonises legitimate mass membership political parties to the extent that members are excluded from responsible positions in society?

    Political opposition is one thing, demonising and bullying is another matter entirely. And that is why I feel moved to come on here and defend UKIP (which I am not a member of and never have been)

    I largely agree. I've seen it at the other end of the spectrum - Communists in Germany sacked as postmen and engine-drivers during the Cold War, since "state employees should not have extreme views". In my personal interactions with people with (in my opinion) extreme views of any kind, I've always judged them by what they say and do when they're working with me, not what they think outside the context. I've worked with BNP members on a conservation project and a games project, and a Maoist on a staff representation issue. What they privately thought was absolutely none of my business, and in both cases I only knew it by accident. If a UKIP governor starts trying to insist on a "patriotic" curriculum or the like, I'd be concerned; if not, who cares?

    The Maoist's story was curious, though, and perhaps in some ways a counter-example showing that there are some risks in letting extremists take senior positions. I later learned from a mutual friend that he'd been ordered by his party to obtain a senior position in Ciba-Geigy as part of their effort to make a "long march through the institutions" and prepare for the revolution. When he got into management, he found that the party had wound itself up and the revolution was definitively off the menu. He scratched his head, shrugged and simply became a legitimate and highly competent manager.
    Maoists may make excellent bureaucrats, but the appraissals and performance management may leave a bit to be desired.

    BTW I think Avalon Hill did a Starship Troopers board-game, did you ever review it? It is not one that I ever played.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2014
    kle4 said:

    To be honest it is the story on the last two paragraphs of that article that is quite worrying:

    a chairman of governers asked to resign after joining UKIP because "Ukip’s policies were against the ethos of the school."?

    Are we really becoming the sort of society that demonises legitimate mass membership political parties to the extent that members are excluded from responsible positions in society?

    Political opposition is one thing, demonising and bullying is another matter entirely. And that is why I feel moved to come on here and defend UKIP (which I am not a member of and never have been)

    I had thought we reached something of a watershed a few years ago with that UKIP foster parents case when it seemed other political leaders for the first time were saying that UKIP was a mainstream party and how outrageous it was and and all that, but it appears there is a ways to go.

    It's bloody annoying really, as one of my problems with some kippers is their inability to not take things so seriously all the time, and to overstate a sense of persecution from the evil LibLbCon MSM establishment machine, but then you get these stories where Kippers have been treated akin to lepers and I therefore have to qualify any such comment with that fact that there is some basis for it. Most inconvenient.
    The foster thing in Rotherham was treated even handedly by the other parties because UKIP were not much of a threat to them then

    The faux outrage every other day in 2014, and the polls that show UKIP as being more disliked than ever, aren't because of UKIP policies or behaviour, but because the party is taking votes from, and lessening the power of, the established parties.. what we are seeing is behaviour caused by fear of losing power

    Its the same thought process and behaviour of people that are stereotyped as disliking foreigners.. they are fine with the locals when they go on holiday abroad, but when the economic migrant comes to England and the Englishman thinks his job security, wages etc may be affected, then nasty comments are made

    Its not the immigrant himself that is disliked, but the threat he poses to the lifestyle of the establishment/native

    There is obviously not a real ideological hatred of UKIP from these parties, as they are trying to out do UKIP on immigration now, and in Camerons case, actually being nasty rather than compassionate to low paid immigrants. If the problem was UKIPs policies, other parties would distance themselves from them

  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689

    ZenPagan said:

    kle4 said:

    ZenPagan said:

    ZenPagan said:


    Something advocated by the late great Science Fiction author Robert Heinlein. To be fair he did go a bit loopy in later life but the basic principle of earning your citizenship through public service is something he articulated very well.

    Starship troopers was indeed a thought provoking book though the film shamed it totally.

    That film is awesome though. Not denying it shamed the book (I've not read it, but I believe the title was slapped on to an existing film script which had a few amendments to make it barely tied in), but it was great and cheesy fun.
    The film may have been good as a stand alone product. However the book that was written was a truly good book and the film took its themes and trashed them. I urge you to read the book it is a slim volume but contains much to think about

    Both book and film are terrific. The book is quite wordy with much of it taken up by the civics teachers lecture, hardly any action against the bugs. The opening scene where the troopers attack the skinnies city does preshadow the fascistic feel of the film, which does have rather suspect Nazi style uniforms for the heroes. Verhoeven always likes to mix up good and evil a bit, creating some really interesting moral ambiguities. Black Book even more so with its Gestapo chief as hero and love interest.

    The book Starship Troopers is a book of its time, but still apparently very popular in the US military.
    It may be a book of its time but I still feel its exploration of the citizenship theme and the war themes merit a read even now. The film is nothing more than light entertainment however

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    "Its the same thought process and behaviour of people that are stereotyped as disliking foreigners.. they are fine with the locals when they go on holiday abroad, but when the economic migrant comes to England and the Englishman thinks his job security, wages etc may be affected, then nasty comments are made

    Its not the immigrant himself that is disliked, but the threat he poses to the lifestyle of the establishment/native"

    In addition to that, it is also the reason why working class people are generally angrier about immigration than the well off. I shouldn't think they have any more or less of a dislike of foreigners than anyone else in terms of their character, but they are more likely to see them as a threat to their lifestyle than somebody comfortably off, who can afford to be relaxed.


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    To be honest it is the story on the last two paragraphs of that article that is quite worrying:

    a chairman of governers asked to resign after joining UKIP because "Ukip’s policies were against the ethos of the school."?

    Are we really becoming the sort of society that demonises legitimate mass membership political parties to the extent that members are excluded from responsible positions in society?

    Political opposition is one thing, demonising and bullying is another matter entirely. And that is why I feel moved to come on here and defend UKIP (which I am not a member of and never have been)

    I had thought we reached something of a watershed a few years ago with that UKIP foster parents case when it seemed other political leaders for the first time were saying that UKIP was a mainstream party and how outrageous it was and and all that, but it appears there is a ways to go.

    It's bloody annoying really, as one of my problems with some kippers is their inability to not take things so seriously all the time, and to overstate a sense of persecution from the evil LibLbCon MSM establishment machine, but then you get these stories where Kippers have been treated akin to lepers and I therefore have to qualify any such comment with that fact that there is some basis for it. Most inconvenient.
    If the problem was UKIPs policies, other parties would distance themselves from them

    A salient point. It would be wrong to assume none of UKIP's current vote is just the standard protest vote, but that Labour and the Tories have attempted to ward them off policy wise by attempting to be tougher on the issues UKIP is toughest on, makes it clear that at the very least on those issues UKIP are closer to the general public view (or at the least a major bloc of the general public view). This has been true for awhile, but it only seems to have been in the last year that the Tories have even attempted to properly fight UKIP as they need to, and even then not all do because they clearly still want to be UKIP and don't mind Cameron losing, so increased attacks coming as a result of a great threat seems true enough.

    To their credit, to some extent, at least the LDs seemed to see they could not out UKIP UKIP and that it was better to take them on in terms of policy in an attempt to pick up votes by opposing rather than copying UKIP. It didn't work, but it was more honest I feel. They can say UKIP's policies are horrible with greater sincerity I feel.
  • More than a little ironic that a talk on 'democracy' is suppressed by 'mob rule' - the only people who emerge diminished by this are the school (should have told the parents to Foxtrot Oscar) and the parents.

    While I look forward to Tory, Labour & Lib Dem cartoons, if Marf wants to generate publicity and outrage, there is one party of thin skinned humourless 'they're all out to get us' conspiracy mongers I would do first.......go on....you know you want to!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    @ZenPagan

    I would disagree about the film. Paul Verhoeven is a very intelligent director, with a serious interest in theology. His musings on the inner drive to fascism are both disturbing and illuminating. There are elements in Starship Troopers that are reminiscent of "Triumph of the Will" only with more gore and naked flesh!

    I have seen most of Verhoevens works and this film fits well within his other works contemplating the fallen nature of man, in keeping with his rather Calvinist worldview. I even like "Showgirls" despite the ridiculous swimming pool scene.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    edited December 2014
    isam said:


    I had thought we reached something of a watershed a few years ago with that UKIP foster parents case when it seemed other political leaders for the first time were saying that UKIP was a mainstream party and how outrageous it was and and all that, but it appears there is a ways to go.

    It's bloody annoying really, as one of my problems with some kippers is their inability to not take things so seriously all the time, and to overstate a sense of persecution from the evil LibLbCon MSM establishment machine, but then you get these stories where Kippers have been treated akin to lepers and I therefore have to qualify any such comment with that fact that there is some basis for it. Most inconvenient.

    The foster thing in Rotherham was treated even handedly by the other parties because UKIP were not much of a threat to them then

    The faux outrage every other day in 2014, and the polls that show UKIP as being more disliked than ever, aren't because of UKIP policies or behaviour, but because the party is taking votes from, and lessening the power of, the established parties.. what we are seeing is behaviour caused by fear of losing power

    Its the same thought process and behaviour of people that are stereotyped as disliking foreigners.. they are fine with the locals when they go on holiday abroad, but when the economic migrant comes to England and the Englishman thinks his job security, wages etc may be affected, then nasty comments are made

    Its not the immigrant himself that is disliked, but the threat he poses to the lifestyle of the establishment/native

    There is obviously not a real ideological hatred of UKIP from these parties, as they are trying to out do UKIP on immigration now, and in Camerons case, actually being nasty rather than compassionate to low paid immigrants. If the problem was UKIPs policies, other parties would distance themselves from them



    This is a personal view only take it as you will

    The established parties have been around too long and have lost sight of why they were formed in the first place. They exist only to provide a power base for those at the top and those people are willing to sell party principles out if it means getting the keys to power.

    This is not to say their grassroots are the same which is why there is so much grumbling in all the three main parties activist base, whether it is not right wing enough or left wing enough.

  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312

    ZenPagan said:

    FPT

    antifrank said:


    "The voting age in the USA is 18 and the drinking age is 21. These anomalies can be found in many countries."

    That doesn't make them right. I am sure you are not advocating adopting all of the US political system so it hardly advances your case to pick out bits that you happen to agree with to support your argument.

    The basic principle that must apply is that if you consider someone mature enough to bear the responsibilities of choosing who governs the country then you must logically also consider them mature enough to bear all the other responsibilities of adulthood. Picking and choosing just those issues that suit your own political or personal agenda is illogical.

    As it stands you are advocating a system where someone is responsible enough to vote but not responsible enough to buy themselves a mobile phone contract.

    This is why I advocate a vote should be earned not given on a certain date

    Contribute to the society you live in and you get a say on how the country is governed as you have shown you value our society.

    I see little reason to concern ourselves with the views of those who don't contribute in anyway whatsoever, whether that contribution is by the route of tax or voluntary work within the community

    Something advocated by the late great Science Fiction author Robert Heinlein. To be fair he did go a bit loopy in later life but the basic principle of earning your citizenship through public service is something he articulated very well.
    Citizenship in Sparta had to earned through the agoge, though I think the Lycurgan constitution would be too tough for us all!
  • DavidL said:

    Toms said:

    Heh heh. This little episode separates the goats from asses, it seems to me.

    And I'd just like to put in a good word for David L, (I assume it's the same?) who comes over on these pages as decent, civilised, and thoughtful.

    And Marf: sock it to em!

    Blush. Thanks very much.

    Edit. Sorry, just read that again. For the avoidance of doubt I am not David Little.
    Yes, that's what I thought.

    David Little (UKIP) does, I believe, post on PB but I have no idea under which name. And if he doesn't actually post, he certainly lurks, because he is on record as being a fan of Marf's cartoons.

    I concur with my esteemed co-poster, Toms, regarding your own posts. Feel free to blush.

  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited December 2014

    DavidL said:

    Toms said:

    Heh heh. This little episode separates the goats from asses, it seems to me.

    And I'd just like to put in a good word for David L, (I assume it's the same?) who comes over on these pages as decent, civilised, and thoughtful.

    And Marf: sock it to em!

    Blush. Thanks very much.

    Edit. Sorry, just read that again. For the avoidance of doubt I am not David Little.
    Yes, that's what I thought.

    David Little (UKIP) does, I believe, post on PB but I have no idea under which name. And if he doesn't actually post, he certainly lurks, because he is on record as being a fan of Marf's cartoons.

    I concur with my esteemed co-poster, Toms, regarding your own posts. Feel free to blush.

    Yes, thanks Peter. I wasn't sure, and my comment stands.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    ZenPagan said:




    The established parties have been around too long and have lost sight of why they were formed in the first place. They exist only to provide a power base for those at the top and those people are willing to sell party principles out if it means getting the keys to power.

    This is not to say their grassroots are the same which is why there is so much grumbling in all the three main parties activist base, whether it is not right wing enough or left wing enough.

    I think there is something in what you say. Institutions around or in power for too long end up following such paths almost inevitably it seems.

    @foxinsoxuk

    Agreed. Much more going on in the film than many might think at first glance.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    Ninoinoz said:

    ZenPagan said:

    FPT

    antifrank said:


    "The voting age in the USA is 18 and the drinking age is 21. These anomalies can be found in many countries."

    That doesn't make them right. I am sure you are not advocating adopting all of the US political system so it hardly advances your case to pick out bits that you happen to agree with to support your argument.

    The basic principle that must apply is that if you consider someone mature enough to bear the responsibilities of choosing who governs the country then you must logically also consider them mature enough to bear all the other responsibilities of adulthood. Picking and choosing just those issues that suit your own political or personal agenda is illogical.

    As it stands you are advocating a system where someone is responsible enough to vote but not responsible enough to buy themselves a mobile phone contract.

    This is why I advocate a vote should be earned not given on a certain date

    Contribute to the society you live in and you get a say on how the country is governed as you have shown you value our society.

    I see little reason to concern ourselves with the views of those who don't contribute in anyway whatsoever, whether that contribution is by the route of tax or voluntary work within the community

    Something advocated by the late great Science Fiction author Robert Heinlein. To be fair he did go a bit loopy in later life but the basic principle of earning your citizenship through public service is something he articulated very well.
    Citizenship in Sparta had to earned through the agoge, though I think the Lycurgan constitution would be too tough for us all!
    The point is something earned is valued more than a freebie. Make people earn their votes and just maybe they will value them more and put some thought into their choice. Earning does not have to be too onerous I would suggest maybe 500£ tax a year for four out of the previous five years or 100 hours voluntary service for a similar period

  • Honestly, some people need to get a sense of humour

    Indeed - but this faux outrage has little to do with a lack of humour imho.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689

    Honestly, some people need to get a sense of humour

    Indeed - but this faux outrage has little to do with a lack of humour imho.
    Most faux outrage is like that....busy bodies being offended on behalf of others who are often left puzzled by the outrage. This is the root of most (being seasonal) winterval things. It is not generally other religions being offended by christmas festivities but right on councillors deciding they might be and acting on it.

    My neighbours who are mainly muslim or hindu or sikh for example often push christmas cards through my door on the assumption I am a christian just as I wish them a happy eid or diwali

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033

    Her Majesty will rue the day

    Senior figures in Whitehall and Downing Street became so fearful that the Scottish independence referendum could lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom that the Queen was asked to make a rare public intervention in the final days of the campaign.

    Britain’s most senior civil servant and the Queen’s private secretary crafted a carefully worded intervention by the monarch, as No 10 experienced what one senior official described as “meltdown” in the closing stages of the campaign after polls showed growing support for a yes vote.

    The discussions between Sir Jeremy Heywood, the cabinet secretary, and Sir Christopher Geidt for the palace, led the Queen to issue an appeal to the people of Scotland four days before the referendum in September to “think very carefully” before casting their vote.

    The delicate negotiations in the runup to the intervention by the Queen, which were described by one senior Whitehall source as a warning to voters that they were facing “a decision filled with foreboding”, are revealed by the Guardian on the final day of a two-part series about the Scottish referendum campaign.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/16/scottish-independence-queen-intervene-yes-vote-fears

    Well I read on the Spectator that the Scottish Government is keeping its share of the profits form the crown estate, so she has already rued the day!
  • ZenPagan said:

    Honestly, some people need to get a sense of humour

    Indeed - but this faux outrage has little to do with a lack of humour imho.
    Most faux outrage is like that....busy bodies being offended on behalf of others who are often left puzzled by the outrage. This is the root of most (being seasonal) winterval things. It is not generally other religions being offended by christmas festivities but right on councillors deciding they might be and acting on it.

    My neighbours who are mainly muslim or hindu or sikh for example often push christmas cards through my door on the assumption I am a christian just as I wish them a happy eid or diwali

    Yep. Very common in Leicester or Nottingham in the past to get some idiot claiming that Christmas upset the non Christians and then get plenty of Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims coming forward to explain that they had no problem at all and that anything that made people happy was absolutely fine by them.

    As always the English are generally okay and laid back whatever their ethnic background and it is only a few busybodies causing trouble.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2014
    Another example of an Immigrant abusing the power bestowed upon him to at the expense of indigenous children

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-30378437
This discussion has been closed.