Keep Our NHS Public @keepnhspublic 45s46 seconds ago Privatisation does NOT mean selling NHS to private companies, it is outsourcing NHS to private companies. That IS what is happening
Yes, unfortunately it is happening like that. I'd be much happier with a direct sell-off
It appears that the Conservative candidate in the Argyll/Bute by election lives 50 miles outside the ward . Amazing that they could no get anyone more local .
The NHS is incredibly important to us says Tory MP. So why have NHS staff been denied a pay rise while MPs award themselves 11%?
Goldfish expression from aforesaid MP
Maybe she thinks there is more to healthcare than the unionised staff's salaries ?
Holding down NHS pay results in higher pay costs as more staff only work additional shifts as Agency.
FACT look at any set of NHS Acute Trusts accounts.
MONITOR report will confirm this before GE2015
There are some people whose love of market forces does not extend to me being paid £1500 to fill a Saturday rota gap!
But working as a Locum is pretty grotty fairly quickly.
Agency nursing shifts tripled since 2010 doubled since 2012 i understand.
Is the pattern replicated in Leicester?
Pretty much. The reasons are complex, including the failure of the UK to have enough nursing training places, and the fact that some rotas are very inflexible, so nurses prefer bank/agency so that they can dictate the hours and work patterns.
Keep Our NHS Public @keepnhspublic 45s46 seconds ago Privatisation does NOT mean selling NHS to private companies, it is outsourcing NHS to private companies. That IS what is happening
Yes, unfortunately it is happening like that. I'd be much happier with a direct sell-off
I am so glad that I disagree with Russell Brand on almost everything
It's the *almost* in your comment that worries me! I challenge you to publicly admit to one significant viewpoint that you and the nutter share.
Haha.,.. well there's not much!
Actually I can think of one.. people getting high and mighty over the way animals are killed for halal meat . In my book (and Russell Brand's) if you really cared you wouldn't eat meat
The NHS is incredibly important to us says Tory MP. So why have NHS staff been denied a pay rise while MPs award themselves 11%?
Care matters more than money grabbing employees.
I'm guessing that you've forgotten that the primary role of the NHS is to look after patients, not feather bed the staff.
Knocking MPs pay is an easy option for a cheer. If you take time to read the comments in quite a lot of places news articles etc - you note that apologists for UKIP howl about closing down the NHS and us all going private with private insurance. So did Farage at one time until he thought he might win in Doncaster South. Hard nosed kipppers hate the NHS. Neokippers or proto-neokippers of a socialist persuasion however demand a nationalised NHS with absolutely no private involvement.
The NHS is incredibly important to us says Tory MP. So why have NHS staff been denied a pay rise while MPs award themselves 11%?
Goldfish expression from aforesaid MP
Maybe she thinks there is more to healthcare than the unionised staff's salaries ?
Holding down NHS pay results in higher pay costs as more staff only work additional shifts as Agency.
FACT look at any set of NHS Acute Trusts accounts.
MONITOR report will confirm this before GE2015
There are some people whose love of market forces does not extend to me being paid £1500 to fill a Saturday rota gap!
But working as a Locum is pretty grotty fairly quickly.
Agency nursing shifts tripled since 2010 doubled since 2012 i understand.
Is the pattern replicated in Leicester?
Pretty much. The reasons are complex, including the failure of the UK to have enough nursing training places, and the fact that some rotas are very inflexible, so nurses prefer bank/agency so that they can dictate the hours and work patterns.
Our local DGH has a lot of Spanish nurses. They work very well I'm told. They are not agency nurses.
The NHS is incredibly important to us says Tory MP. So why have NHS staff been denied a pay rise while MPs award themselves 11%?
Goldfish expression from aforesaid MP
Maybe she thinks there is more to healthcare than the unionised staff's salaries ?
Holding down NHS pay results in higher pay costs as more staff only work additional shifts as Agency.
FACT look at any set of NHS Acute Trusts accounts.
MONITOR report will confirm this before GE2015
There are some people whose love of market forces does not extend to me being paid £1500 to fill a Saturday rota gap!
But working as a Locum is pretty grotty fairly quickly.
Agency nursing shifts tripled since 2010 doubled since 2012 i understand.
Is the pattern replicated in Leicester?
Pretty much. The reasons are complex, including the failure of the UK to have enough nursing training places, and the fact that some rotas are very inflexible, so nurses prefer bank/agency so that they can dictate the hours and work patterns.
Our local DGH has a lot of Spanish nurses. They work very well I'm told. They are not agency nurses.
I am willing to bet your DGH spends at least double on Agency what it did in 2010. Grab its accounts.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 7m7 minutes ago Greenwich, London I think one day all the migrants in this country should go on strike. Let's see how good our health and public services are then.
That's a great idea.
That same day all the migrants in this country stop going to the GP, to school, stop using public services etc and see where we are
26% of GPs are immigrants.
Edit: Or it maybe 26% of NHS doctors are immigrants.
I think the figure is 40% of registered UK doctors trained overseas.
Hold on.
If doctors pay for their own training, then it's fine if they move abroad; they've paid for their own training.
If the State has paid for their training, then they are basically "stealing" from that country.
Does anyone have the figures for this?
You have it the wrong way round. The UK is a big importer of Doctors with 40% being foreign trained, so no cost to the UK taxpayer.
As tim would point out so often: immigrants are much more likely to have degrees than UK natives.
OK, firstly read my post carefully before replying. I was ambiguous about what constituted abroad and did not mention the UK at all.
Secondly, simply repeating the immigrant figure without subtracting something for the emigrating doctors is simply dishonest.
Thirdly, you have not supplied any data about the training regimes in the countries those doctors come from or, for that matter, this country.
Fourthly, you haven't given the slightest consideration to the effect on the emigrants' home countries.
Flightpath Though Farage also said UKIP was open to looking at more health insurance schemes
For who? Him? He is begining to sound like Tony Blair. How many sides does Nigels triangle have? Farage has moved for having an NHS like the French to having an NHS to the left of Gordon Brown. He has done it by totally misrepresenting private involvement in the NHS on the basis of attracting socialists and excluding Douglas Carswell.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 7m7 minutes ago Greenwich, London I think one day all the migrants in this country should go on strike. Let's see how good our health and public services are then.
That's a great idea.
That same day all the migrants in this country stop going to the GP, to school, stop using public services etc and see where we are
26% of GPs are immigrants.
Edit: Or it maybe 26% of NHS doctors are immigrants.
I think the figure is 40% of registered UK doctors trained overseas.
Hold on.
If doctors pay for their own training, then it's fine if they move abroad; they've paid for their own training.
If the State has paid for their training, then they are basically "stealing" from that country.
Does anyone have the figures for this?
You have it the wrong way round. The UK is a big importer of Doctors with 40% being foreign trained, so no cost to the UK taxpayer.
As tim would point out so often: immigrants are much more likely to have degrees than UK natives.
OK, firstly read my post carefully before replying. I was ambiguous about what constituted abroad and did not mention the UK at all.
Secondly, simply repeating the immigrant figure without subtracting something for the emigrating doctors is simply dishonest.
Thirdly, you have not supplied any data about the training regimes in the countries those doctors come from or, for that matter, this country.
Fourthly, you haven't given the slightest consideration to the effect on the emigrants' home countries.
Apart from that, great post.
Haha there are so many great hidden points in those two posts!
OK, firstly read my post carefully before replying. I was ambiguous about what constituted abroad and did not mention the UK at all.
Secondly, simply repeating the immigrant figure without subtracting something for the emigrating doctors is simply dishonest.
Thirdly, you have not supplied any data about the training regimes in the countries those doctors come from or, for that matter, this country.
Fourthly, you haven't given the slightest consideration to the effect on the emigrants' home countries.
Apart from that, great post.
Most migrant Doctors to the UK are trained in places with at least some government subsidy, and often in places where no fees are paid.
The UK (like most developed countries) is a net importer of Doctors, and also of Nurses.
The effect on the country that they emigrate from is complex. Clearly there is a brain drain element, but there is also a large amount of overseas remittances going to these countries, both in terms of salary and also lump sums on retirement. For countries like Bangladesh and the Phillipines remitances are a very large source of Foreign exchange. There is also a large cohort that return to their native land with postgraduate experience essential to develop services back home.
Some countries also train far too many Doctors (Greece being an example in Europe).
In terms of the cost of training, it is nessecary to separate the costs of Undergraduate and of postgraduate training. Undergraduates cost money to train, but postgraduate trainees are the essential staff that run services, particularly emergency services. For much of my youth I spent 90+ hours on duty with overtime paid at 38% of the in hours rate (note: not 138%!).
I personally would be happy with a postgraduate bond that ties the UK doctor to several years NHS duties. Better still would be to write off tuition fees after 10 years NHS service. Some countriies do this already (Greece requires 18 months as a rural GP for example).
The NHS is incredibly important to us says Tory MP. So why have NHS staff been denied a pay rise while MPs award themselves 11%?
Goldfish expression from aforesaid MP
Maybe she thinks there is more to healthcare than the unionised staff's salaries ?
Holding down NHS pay results in higher pay costs as more staff only work additional shifts as Agency.
FACT look at any set of NHS Acute Trusts accounts.
MONITOR report will confirm this before GE2015
There are some people whose love of market forces does not extend to me being paid £1500 to fill a Saturday rota gap!
But working as a Locum is pretty grotty fairly quickly.
Agency nursing shifts tripled since 2010 doubled since 2012 i understand.
Is the pattern replicated in Leicester?
Pretty much. The reasons are complex, including the failure of the UK to have enough nursing training places, and the fact that some rotas are very inflexible, so nurses prefer bank/agency so that they can dictate the hours and work patterns.
Our local DGH has a lot of Spanish nurses. They work very well I'm told. They are not agency nurses.
I am willing to bet your DGH spends at least double on Agency what it did in 2010. Grab its accounts.
As is being said, agency nurses etc comes from many reasons. I know that were I live the costs of living there is a big problem in recruiting staff. Hence the Spanish nurses.
The NHS is incredibly important to us says Tory MP. So why have NHS staff been denied a pay rise while MPs award themselves 11%?
Goldfish expression from aforesaid MP
Maybe she thinks there is more to healthcare than the unionised staff's salaries ?
Holding down NHS pay results in higher pay costs as more staff only work additional shifts as Agency.
FACT look at any set of NHS Acute Trusts accounts.
MONITOR report will confirm this before GE2015
There are some people whose love of market forces does not extend to me being paid £1500 to fill a Saturday rota gap!
But working as a Locum is pretty grotty fairly quickly.
Agency nursing shifts tripled since 2010 doubled since 2012 i understand.
Is the pattern replicated in Leicester?
Pretty much. The reasons are complex, including the failure of the UK to have enough nursing training places, and the fact that some rotas are very inflexible, so nurses prefer bank/agency so that they can dictate the hours and work patterns.
Our local DGH has a lot of Spanish nurses. They work very well I'm told. They are not agency nurses.
We recently recruited a lot of EU nurses in Leicester:
It appears that the Conservative candidate in the Argyll/Bute by election lives 50 miles outside the ward . Amazing that they could no get anyone more local .
It appears that the Conservative candidate in the Argyll/Bute by election lives 50 miles outside the ward . Amazing that they could no get anyone more local .
@Foxinsoxuk A few years back, I and a couple of my former student nurse friends all decided to look into returning to nursing and doing the refresher course with a view to working as bank staff nurses as we all still had young families. We all lived rurally outside Aberdeen, and one of my friends hubby was a policeman who worked set shifts. The refresher course/bank system had become so inflexible that it was no longer practical for any of us to undertake it at the time. We are all now back at work, but none of us are working as nurses in the NHS. Now that is three staff nurses that could have been back in the NHS system part-time....
The biggest mistake ever made within the NHS in the last couple of decades was to disband Nursing colleges which had successfully ran an excellent three year module staff nurse training course, and then turn this qualification into a degree obtained at University instead. And then along came student fees.... This was one bit of political meddling by both the last Conservative Government, and then the subsequent Labour Government that succeeded it that really screwed up the trained nursing provision in the NHS in the longer term!!
And it was about trying to save a quick buck in the short term, under the old module system, I spent most of my training both as a junior and senior student working full time and learning my craft first hand on the wards for a small wage and I was provided with heavily subsidised accommodation in the Nursing Homes provided by various Nursing Colleges. But the downside of switching the course to a Uni degree, and then throwing in tuition fees and no living expenses was always going to depress recruitment for a job that is never going to be a big earner for most nurses. And on top of that, you also just deprived the NHS of a large quantity of 'in-training' staff, both junior and senior that had formally been a vital part of every staff rota sheet through out the UK!
I was a general dogs body as a junior nurse student on my first medical ward, by the end of my training as a senior student nurse I was in charge of receiving medical ward on night duty reporting to a night Sister covering several wards. The majority of my training was spent hands on gaining both experience and training on the wards. That is why back then both American and Australian companies were always over here trying to recruit British Nurses to fill the shortages a similar degree nursing course with tuition fees had caused in their countries! Talk about watching the UK take a great training system that worked, but cost more initially in the short, but then provided a far better longer term investment and then just trash it despite all the evidence from other countries.... Still makes me mad even today!!
Keep Our NHS Public @keepnhspublic 45s46 seconds ago Privatisation does NOT mean selling NHS to private companies, it is outsourcing NHS to private companies. That IS what is happening
Yes, unfortunately it is happening like that. I'd be much happier with a direct sell-off
Why do you care?
Because he pays for it?
I thought you paid for it all Nigel.
Does Geoff even pay UK taxes?
Yes! I have a house in the UK in what is likely to be a Conservative/UKIP marginal!
Nursing always has been and always will be a largely practical profession, and I think that the academisation of training (as well as the things you mention) has put up a bar to entry for many.
I would say the same about medical recruitment too. There are many non academic skills that are needed to be a good Doctor. Many medical schools require grades of A*AA for entry and 7A* at GCSE. An A at Chemistry is essential but I would be more flexible with other qualifications. Many of our excellent graduate entry students would have been barred by their A levels.
In part Medical Schools are controlled by research orientated academics, but also setting a high academic bar is an effective way of limiting the number of applications to be reviewed by the entry panel.
The fact that drop out rates are now very high, both before and after qualification shows we are doing something wrong.
UKIP were second to Lib Dems in both seats and well ahead of Cons and Labour. The Lib Dems have worked hard for the local people in Aylesbury and the electorate have responded - although the turnout was very low, so good party organisation will have played a part.
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Britain Elects @britainelects · 1m 1 minute ago
Liberal Democrats HOLD Gatehouse (Aylesbury Vale).
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Liberal Democrats GAIN Southcourt (Aylesbury Vale) from Labour.
Is the pattern replicated in Leicester?
And how would you know now, having bottled it at the mere sight of Lansley?
Does Geoff even pay UK taxes?
Actually I can think of one.. people getting high and mighty over the way animals are killed for halal meat . In my book (and Russell Brand's) if you really cared you wouldn't eat meat
Sounds like an Ed is Crap anecdote to me.
Grab its accounts.
Plaid 598 Ind 181 Lib Dem 96
Stamford result
UKIP 400 Lab 268 Con 261 Linc Ind 199 Lib Dem 142
Oh nearly forgot.
Tonights YG EICIPM (UKPR)
Says it all.
Secondly, simply repeating the immigrant figure without subtracting something for the emigrating doctors is simply dishonest.
Thirdly, you have not supplied any data about the training regimes in the countries those doctors come from or, for that matter, this country.
Fourthly, you haven't given the slightest consideration to the effect on the emigrants' home countries.
Apart from that, great post.
32 years experience
prioritising the patient. Trumped by your discussion with man in pub
is what i meant
Goodnight.
Farage has moved for having an NHS like the French to having an NHS to the left of Gordon Brown. He has done it by totally misrepresenting private involvement in the NHS on the basis of attracting socialists and excluding Douglas Carswell.
PS
LD lady on This Week talking total sense!!!
Actively caring for patients, not paper shufflers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enfield_Southgate_by-election,_1984
OK, firstly read my post carefully before replying. I was ambiguous about what constituted abroad and did not mention the UK at all.
Secondly, simply repeating the immigrant figure without subtracting something for the emigrating doctors is simply dishonest.
Thirdly, you have not supplied any data about the training regimes in the countries those doctors come from or, for that matter, this country.
Fourthly, you haven't given the slightest consideration to the effect on the emigrants' home countries.
Apart from that, great post.
Most migrant Doctors to the UK are trained in places with at least some government subsidy, and often in places where no fees are paid.
The UK (like most developed countries) is a net importer of Doctors, and also of Nurses.
The effect on the country that they emigrate from is complex. Clearly there is a brain drain element, but there is also a large amount of overseas remittances going to these countries, both in terms of salary and also lump sums on retirement. For countries like Bangladesh and the Phillipines remitances are a very large source of Foreign exchange. There is also a large cohort that return to their native land with postgraduate experience essential to develop services back home.
Some countries also train far too many Doctors (Greece being an example in Europe).
In terms of the cost of training, it is nessecary to separate the costs of Undergraduate and of postgraduate training. Undergraduates cost money to train, but postgraduate trainees are the essential staff that run services, particularly emergency services. For much of my youth I spent 90+ hours on duty with overtime paid at 38% of the in hours rate (note: not 138%!).
I personally would be happy with a postgraduate bond that ties the UK doctor to several years NHS duties. Better still would be to write off tuition fees after 10 years NHS service. Some countriies do this already (Greece requires 18 months as a rural GP for example).
http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/European-nurses-arrive-improve-patient-care/story-20579490-detail/story.html
One of many benefits of labour mobility in the EU. Lovely to work with!
thus chiles is a yam-yam not a brummie
'Nick Palmer's canvassing results weren't great:'
Con + 5% Lab - 3.5%
Reality versus Anecdote.
http://www.eia.gov/countries/prices/gasolinewithtax.cfm
It would be funny, is not a) true and b) more likely than not that the two Ed will be in control this time next year and imposing their "nice" cuts.
The biggest mistake ever made within the NHS in the last couple of decades was to disband Nursing colleges which had successfully ran an excellent three year module staff nurse training course, and then turn this qualification into a degree obtained at University instead. And then along came student fees.... This was one bit of political meddling by both the last Conservative Government, and then the subsequent Labour Government that succeeded it that really screwed up the trained nursing provision in the NHS in the longer term!!
And it was about trying to save a quick buck in the short term, under the old module system, I spent most of my training both as a junior and senior student working full time and learning my craft first hand on the wards for a small wage and I was provided with heavily subsidised accommodation in the Nursing Homes provided by various Nursing Colleges. But the downside of switching the course to a Uni degree, and then throwing in tuition fees and no living expenses was always going to depress recruitment for a job that is never going to be a big earner for most nurses. And on top of that, you also just deprived the NHS of a large quantity of 'in-training' staff, both junior and senior that had formally been a vital part of every staff rota sheet through out the UK!
I was a general dogs body as a junior nurse student on my first medical ward, by the end of my training as a senior student nurse I was in charge of receiving medical ward on night duty reporting to a night Sister covering several wards. The majority of my training was spent hands on gaining both experience and training on the wards. That is why back then both American and Australian companies were always over here trying to recruit British Nurses to fill the shortages a similar degree nursing course with tuition fees had caused in their countries! Talk about watching the UK take a great training system that worked, but cost more initially in the short, but then provided a far better longer term investment and then just trash it despite all the evidence from other countries.... Still makes me mad even today!!
I second your analysis.
Nursing always has been and always will be a largely practical profession, and I think that the academisation of training (as well as the things you mention) has put up a bar to entry for many.
I would say the same about medical recruitment too. There are many non academic skills that are needed to be a good Doctor. Many medical schools require grades of A*AA for entry and 7A* at GCSE. An A at Chemistry is essential but I would be more flexible with other qualifications. Many of our excellent graduate entry students would have been barred by their A levels.
In part Medical Schools are controlled by research orientated academics, but also setting a high academic bar is an effective way of limiting the number of applications to be reviewed by the entry panel.
The fact that drop out rates are now very high, both before and after qualification shows we are doing something wrong.