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  • UKIP remains a wolf in sheeps clothing, duping people with leftist policies so they can force through a right wing agenda which mostly benefits wealthy financiers like themselves.

    Can you offer an example of those policies?
    Very difficult as UKIP policies change whenever Farage is asked about them. UKIP candidates also change whenever Farage is asked about them.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @bSkyNews: i FRONT PAGE: "Miliband takes axe to public spending" #skypapers http://t.co/3Yf5vUqJ3z
  • I'd bet against Hamilton in *any* seat in which he stands for UKIP.

    There's something menacing and unpleasant about him under the surface. He's clearly sensitive too, and has been highly litigious throughout his career. That makes him seem a bit resentful, narcissistic and unbalanced to me.

    For the record, I didn't particularly like him as a Tory MP back in the day either.
  • Raise tax-free threshold on income to £11,500, followed by a flat rate of 31% to replace current income tax and employees' National Insurance (NI) - UKIP manifesto 2010

    No BJO Farage says that this was all cr*p after he had added his own signature to them... UKIP policies are time stamped to when Farage last said something about them.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    UKIP remains a wolf in sheeps clothing, duping people with leftist policies so they can force through a right wing agenda which mostly benefits wealthy financiers like themselves.

    Can you offer an example of those policies?

    The 2010 manifesto advocated flat taxes.

    Paul Nuttall advocated getting rid of the NHS:

    http://onlinefocus.org/?p=14939
    ,
    Douglas Carswell ditto:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Plan-Twelve-months-Britain/dp/0955979900

    Now we have not seen the 2015 manifesto and perhaps Nigel may actually read it this time, but can we trust any party that has changed its mind so completely in such a short period of time?
    Fox, have you seen the headline story on the Mercury website? Really poor for us.
    Just seen it. Sounds awful. I knew there was trouble at J23 yesterday, but did not know what had happened.

    Skeleton services are a real risk to everyone.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited December 2014
    Ed is apparently going to be simultaneously backing Tory economic policies, while opposing the inevitable consequences of such policies.

    I despair.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    john_zims said:

    @bigjohnowls

    Labour were the first to privatize an NHS hospital,get over it.

    Any nonsense now about the Coalition privatizing the NHS is laughable.

    First in November 2011.
    Laughable
    At least you're getting your dates right now!
    Your contention that the Cerco bid was still an NHS bid is interesting. Do you have any evidence to back that up? At what point does something become a private bid?
    Maybe they had a token NHS person included to make the tea once a week?
    Cerco providing tea ladies.

    P&SNHSFT only providing Doctors,Nurses,radiographers and other trivial stuff like that.

    Dont let facts enter your arguement
  • john_zims said:

    @bigjohnowls

    Labour were the first to privatize an NHS hospital,get over it.

    Any nonsense now about the Coalition privatizing the NHS is laughable.

    First in November 2011.
    Laughable
    At least you're getting your dates right now!
    Your contention that the Cerco bid was still an NHS bid is interesting. Do you have any evidence to back that up? At what point does something become a private bid?
    Maybe they had a token NHS person included to make the tea once a week?
    A Pilgrim forced onto the payroll.
    I knew they would have one of the lay abouts somewhere.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Miliband: Cutting deficit is 'part of Labour's mission'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30417955

    Memory is coming back to him

    Those would be the 'good' cuts, not the nasty ones that everyone else would make.
    Miliband is going to save us. Him and his gang have signed EDM 454. Surely he'd never go back on a pledge? Politicians never break their pledges.

    If Labour can privatise hospitals, they're more than capable of selling Fire Stations to the highest bidder.

    You could be working for 'Circle Fire' this time, next year.
    Firing Circle seems more apt.
  • UKIP remains a wolf in sheeps clothing, duping people with leftist policies so they can force through a right wing agenda which mostly benefits wealthy financiers like themselves.

    Can you offer an example of those policies?

    The 2010 manifesto advocated flat taxes.

    Paul Nuttall advocated getting rid of the NHS:

    http://onlinefocus.org/?p=14939
    ,
    Douglas Carswell ditto:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Plan-Twelve-months-Britain/dp/0955979900

    Now we have not seen the 2015 manifesto and perhaps Nigel may actually read it this time, but can we trust any party that has changed its mind so completely in such a short period of time?
    Fox, have you seen the headline story on the Mercury website? Really poor for us.
    Just seen it. Sounds awful. I knew there was trouble at J23 yesterday, but did not know what had happened.

    Skeleton services are a real risk to everyone.
    We'll get slated because of the strike, and HQ will get slated for the makeshift crew. I know a lot more, but, obviously not prudent to comment on the internet.

  • john_zims said:

    @bigjohnowls

    Labour were the first to privatize an NHS hospital,get over it.

    Any nonsense now about the Coalition privatizing the NHS is laughable.

    First in November 2011.
    Laughable
    At least you're getting your dates right now!
    Your contention that the Cerco bid was still an NHS bid is interesting. Do you have any evidence to back that up? At what point does something become a private bid?
    Maybe they had a token NHS person included to make the tea once a week?
    Cerco providing tea ladies.

    P&SNHSFT only providing Doctors,Nurses,radiographers and other trivial stuff like that.

    Dont let facts enter your arguement
    Don't let brains enter yours.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    UKIP remains a wolf in sheeps clothing, duping people with leftist policies so they can force through a right wing agenda which mostly benefits wealthy financiers like themselves.

    Can you offer an example of those policies?
    Very difficult as UKIP policies change whenever Farage is asked about them. UKIP candidates also change whenever Farage is asked about them.
    Mr Cameron gave us a 'no ifs, no buts' promise to reduce immigration to 'tens of thoursands'. The 2010 Conservative manifesto was in favour of repatriating power from the EU.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,536

    Raise tax-free threshold on income to £11,500, followed by a flat rate of 31% to replace current income tax and employees' National Insurance (NI) - UKIP manifesto 2010

    No BJO Farage says that this was all cr*p after he had added his own signature to them... UKIP policies are time stamped to when Farage last said something about them.
    That was then. UKIP were defeated at the election on that manifesto, and are quite at liberty to propose another.

  • Raise tax-free threshold on income to £11,500, followed by a flat rate of 31% to replace current income tax and employees' National Insurance (NI) - UKIP manifesto 2010

    Sounds sensible to me.

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited December 2014

    john_zims said:

    @bigjohnowls

    Labour were the first to privatize an NHS hospital,get over it.

    Any nonsense now about the Coalition privatizing the NHS is laughable.

    First in November 2011.
    Laughable
    At least you're getting your dates right now!
    Your contention that the Cerco bid was still an NHS bid is interesting. Do you have any evidence to back that up? At what point does something become a private bid?
    Maybe they had a token NHS person included to make the tea once a week?
    A Pilgrim forced onto the payroll.
    I knew they would have one of the lay abouts somewhere.
    I wonder what Owls thinks about union pilgrims?
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited December 2014

    Just seen the UKIP expenses letter on Ch4 blog. Methinks if the big three parties had been as rigourous in making enquiries before paying they wouldnt be in the pickle they are now.

    Ever heard of UKIP MEP Tom Wise? He is thought to be the first MEP jailed for EC expenses fraud.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Wise

    UKIP are er... different?

    UKIP have the highest ratio amongst UK parties for having elected MEPs subsequently jailed.
    I think there was an expenses fraud scandal in the UK. A number of MPs were prosecuted. Others repaid sums they 'claimed in error'.

    EDIT
    Thieves should be punished.


  • Sean_F said:

    Raise tax-free threshold on income to £11,500, followed by a flat rate of 31% to replace current income tax and employees' National Insurance (NI) - UKIP manifesto 2010

    No BJO Farage says that this was all cr*p after he had added his own signature to them... UKIP policies are time stamped to when Farage last said something about them.
    That was then. UKIP were defeated at the election on that manifesto, and are quite at liberty to propose another.
    Yes they are. But Farage plays fast and loose with policies in UKIP, you have no assurance that he would not reverse his position on many of them. The change on the NHS is so dramatic you must be wondering if you have got into bed with people further left than the few remaining wets in the Conservative party. Are UKIP the new green melon party?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    UKIP remains a wolf in sheeps clothing, duping people with leftist policies so they can force through a right wing agenda which mostly benefits wealthy financiers like themselves.

    Can you offer an example of those policies?

    The 2010 manifesto advocated flat taxes.

    Paul Nuttall advocated getting rid of the NHS:

    http://onlinefocus.org/?p=14939
    ,
    Douglas Carswell ditto:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Plan-Twelve-months-Britain/dp/0955979900

    Now we have not seen the 2015 manifesto and perhaps Nigel may actually read it this time, but can we trust any party that has changed its mind so completely in such a short period of time?
    Fox, have you seen the headline story on the Mercury website? Really poor for us.
    Just seen it. Sounds awful. I knew there was trouble at J23 yesterday, but did not know what had happened.

    Skeleton services are a real risk to everyone.
    We'll get slated because of the strike, and HQ will get slated for the makeshift crew. I know a lot more, but, obviously not prudent to comment on the internet.

    Best stay quiet then. Maybe the truth will out. It would be a much bigger news story if it had happened within the M25.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    Danny565 said:

    Ed is apparently going to be simultaneously backing Tory economic policies, while opposing the inevitable consequences of such policies.

    I despair.

    What do you want him to do? Ignore it or pledge big tax rises? He needs to get across that he understands the constraints of the time whilst making clear how draconian the Tory plans are. And also pointing out that according to the OBR the Tory plans rely on a big increase in unsecured lending - a risk that isn't healthy for ordinary people to bear. It's tricky but Osborne has provided a lot of room to work with.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    I'm shocked

    Behind the bluster, the Tories and the Lib Dems are preparing for another coalition

    Clegg and others would rather continue to do business with the Tories than with a Labour Party regarded as irredeemably tribal.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/12/behind-bluster-tories-and-lib-dems-are-preparing-another-coalition

    Good, I've got a bet on that outcome with Betfair.
  • For fans of Karen Danczuk

    The perfect present? Labour MP’s wife Karen Danczuk sells signed, scented and predictably cleavage-heavy selfies for £10 on eBay

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2868158/Labour-MP-s-wife-Karen-Danczuk-sells-signed-scented-predictably-cleavage-heavy-selfies-10-eBay.html
  • Just seen the UKIP expenses letter on Ch4 blog. Methinks if the big three parties had been as rigourous in making enquiries before paying they wouldnt be in the pickle they are now.

    Ever heard of UKIP MEP Tom Wise? He is thought to be the first MEP jailed for EC expenses fraud.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Wise

    UKIP are er... different?

    UKIP have the highest ratio amongst UK parties for having elected MEPs subsequently jailed.
    I think there was an expenses fraud scandal in the UK. A number of MPs were prosecuted. Others repaid sums they 'claimed in error'.

    EDIT
    Thieves should be punished.

    UKIP had no MPs at the time a good thing as they seem to have a culture with endemic problems of expenses abuses. Whatever happened to the infamous call centre revenue?
  • UKIP remains a wolf in sheeps clothing, duping people with leftist policies so they can force through a right wing agenda which mostly benefits wealthy financiers like themselves.

    Can you offer an example of those policies?
    Very difficult as UKIP policies change whenever Farage is asked about them. UKIP candidates also change whenever Farage is asked about them.
    Mr Cameron gave us a 'no ifs, no buts' promise to reduce immigration to 'tens of thoursands'. The 2010 Conservative manifesto was in favour of repatriating power from the EU.
    Turns out there were quite a lot of 'ifs' and 'buts' in that promise. Even Conservatives within his cabinet have learnt not to trust a word he says; those words are whatever are most politically expedient for him to utter.

    Now Hague, IDS, Hilton and Gove are largely off the scene, it's Osborne who calls the shots these days. He counts for what brains actually lie behind the Conservative operation. Hunt/Hammond put in the hard graft. Crosby backs it up, and May does her own thing.

    Right, time for some shut-eye. Goodnight.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    UKIP remains a wolf in sheeps clothing, duping people with leftist policies so they can force through a right wing agenda which mostly benefits wealthy financiers like themselves.

    Can you offer an example of those policies?
    Very difficult as UKIP policies change whenever Farage is asked about them. UKIP candidates also change whenever Farage is asked about them.
    Mr Cameron gave us a 'no ifs, no buts' promise to reduce immigration to 'tens of thoursands'. The 2010 Conservative manifesto was in favour of repatriating power from the EU.
    Turns out there were quite a lot of 'ifs' and 'buts' in that promise. Even Conservatives within his cabinet have learnt not to trust a word he says; those words are whatever are most politically expedient for him to utter.

    Now Hague, IDS, Hilton and Gove are largely off the scene, it's Osborne who calls the shots these days. He counts for what brains actually lie behind the Conservative operation. Hunt/Hammond put in the hard graft. Crosby backs it up, and May does her own thing.

    Right, time for some shut-eye. Goodnight.
    There was me thinking you were sleep walking when you wrote that
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Danny565 said:

    Ed is apparently going to be simultaneously backing Tory economic policies, while opposing the inevitable consequences of such policies.

    I despair.

    Whilst fighting a campaign on the cost of living whilst petrol goes sub £1 a litre.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited December 2014

    Danny565 said:

    Ed is apparently going to be simultaneously backing Tory economic policies, while opposing the inevitable consequences of such policies.

    I despair.

    What do you want him to do? Ignore it or pledge big tax rises? He needs to get across that he understands the constraints of the time whilst making clear how draconian the Tory plans are. And also pointing out that according to the OBR the Tory plans rely on a big increase in unsecured lending - a risk that isn't healthy for ordinary people to bear. It's tricky but Osborne has provided a lot of room to work with.

    Well, if it was up to me, I'd go for full-on "deficit denial", saying the deficit didn't matter at all.

    But even I can see that would be a step too far, so they should just do some bullshit about "we'll focus on growth which will grow our tax receipts and get the deficit down", as well as maybe some assurances that they won't be increasing spending further, but that there's no need to radically cut back further like the Tories plan to. Basically, a reprise of the line they were pushing in 2011-13, when after all they were doing much better than they've done this year when they've stopped opposing the cuts altogether. I honestly think people are so desperate for some optimism that they'd be receptive to such a stance, as long as Labour reassured them they weren't going to go crazy and start spending like there's no tomorrow.

    But if they let the topic become "who will be the toughest at cutting spending", they are simply NEVER going to win, exactly the same as the mainstream parties can never beat UKIP when they talk about immigration.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,889
    ScottP A kiss of death for Ed I think, if voters want more austerity they will vote for the Coalition not Labour's austeritylite, expect a further rise in Labour to Green movement as a result
  • For fans of Karen Danczuk

    The perfect present? Labour MP’s wife Karen Danczuk sells signed, scented and predictably cleavage-heavy selfies for £10 on eBay

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2868158/Labour-MP-s-wife-Karen-Danczuk-sells-signed-scented-predictably-cleavage-heavy-selfies-10-eBay.html

    That's bizarre! How does that sit with the feminist adenda?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Danny565 said:

    Ed is apparently going to be simultaneously backing Tory economic policies, while opposing the inevitable consequences of such policies.

    I despair.

    It gets him elected, that's what counts. No doubt the party are confident they will be able to come up with something to resolve that contradiction somehow, parties always do. It would be quite the achievement.
  • For fans of Karen Danczuk

    The perfect present? Labour MP’s wife Karen Danczuk sells signed, scented and predictably cleavage-heavy selfies for £10 on eBay

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2868158/Labour-MP-s-wife-Karen-Danczuk-sells-signed-scented-predictably-cleavage-heavy-selfies-10-eBay.html

    That's bizarre! How does that sit with the feminist adenda?

    Well she can sit on...oh wait this is a family site.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited December 2014
    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ed is apparently going to be simultaneously backing Tory economic policies, while opposing the inevitable consequences of such policies.

    I despair.

    It gets him elected, that's what counts. No doubt the party are confident they will be able to come up with something to resolve that contradiction somehow, parties always do. It would be quite the achievement.
    I'm sure it will be good cuts, vs bad cuts, we will only need to cut £xbn, as we will get much higher growth, less benefits from higher minimum wage, and all sorts of things paid for by soak the rich taxes / bankers bonus, where as same old Tories, tax cuts for rich, shaft the poor, etc etc etc.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    HYUFD said:

    ScottP A kiss of death for Ed I think, if voters want more austerity they will vote for the Coalition not Labour's austeritylite,

    I don't know about that. The Labour brand is more popular than the Tories, therefore they can say and do the same thing and get away with more. As such, they could probably manage to promise to do similar things but without the evil intention behind it that is clearly the Tory motivation, and it won't be until after the election that people start to notice the intent one way or the other is not making much difference and the cuts still suck.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    UKIP remains a wolf in sheeps clothing, duping people with leftist policies so they can force through a right wing agenda which mostly benefits wealthy financiers like themselves.

    Can you offer an example of those policies?

    The 2010 manifesto advocated flat taxes.

    Paul Nuttall advocated getting rid of the NHS:

    http://onlinefocus.org/?p=14939
    ,
    Douglas Carswell ditto:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Plan-Twelve-months-Britain/dp/0955979900

    Now we have not seen the 2015 manifesto and perhaps Nigel may actually read it this time, but can we trust any party that has changed its mind so completely in such a short period of time?
    Fox, have you seen the headline story on the Mercury website? Really poor for us.
    Just seen it. Sounds awful. I knew there was trouble at J23 yesterday, but did not know what had happened.

    Skeleton services are a real risk to everyone.
    We'll get slated because of the strike, and HQ will get slated for the makeshift crew. I know a lot more, but, obviously not prudent to comment on the internet.

    Best stay quiet then. Maybe the truth will out. It would be a much bigger news story if it had happened within the M25.
    As would yesterdays news in my part of our patch:

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-30386128

    One part of this is the bizarre "Marginal Emergency Tariff" which means that NHS hospitals are out of pocket for 70% of costs for all emergency admissions over the 2008 level.

    http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/1-billion-nhs-funds-withheld-dispatches

    No wonder we are broke! What do the commissioners want us to do? Turn away ambulances because we have had our quota of admissions that day?

    The tariff structure rewards elective care (and the private companies that do some of this work, and penalises hospitals that take emergency admissions.
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    Well UKIP have now dealt with both an alleged sex scandal and Neil Hamilton's selection efforts successfully and by the book, and it was just a year ago when they couldn't handle comments from Godfrey Bloom wrecking their conference.

    When did they resolve the problem with Bird? It's still ongoing.

    And now the Deputy Chairman's expenses claims are under investigation.
    Peak Kipper XVIII?
    Same creatures wearing different coloured badges. Kippers are no different to the other parties.
    Perhaps not.

    Interesting article from Dan Snow:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/26/ukip-history-mps-government
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    ScottP A kiss of death for Ed I think, if voters want more austerity they will vote for the Coalition not Labour's austeritylite,

    I don't know about that. The Labour brand is more popular than the Tories
    27.9% in England at the last GE would suggest otherwise.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ed is apparently going to be simultaneously backing Tory economic policies, while opposing the inevitable consequences of such policies.

    I despair.

    It gets him elected, that's what counts. No doubt the party are confident they will be able to come up with something to resolve that contradiction somehow, parties always do. It would be quite the achievement.
    I'm sure it will be good cuts, vs bad cuts, we will only need to cut £xbn, as we will get much higher growth, less benefits from higher minimum wage, and all sorts of things paid for by soak the rich taxes / bankers bonus, where as same old Tories, tax cuts for rich, shaft the poor, etc etc etc.
    I'm sure that is correct, but I was thinking more what they will do to resolve the contradiction after they get into power and the narrative of good cuts vs bad cuts starts to face more pushback as they encounter the no cuts brigade with more force, as well as people realising cuts don't feel nice whoever is doing them or however necessary it might be.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ed is apparently going to be simultaneously backing Tory economic policies, while opposing the inevitable consequences of such policies.

    I despair.

    It gets him elected, that's what counts. No doubt the party are confident they will be able to come up with something to resolve that contradiction somehow, parties always do. It would be quite the achievement.
    I'm sure it will be good cuts, vs bad cuts, we will only need to cut £xbn, as we will get much higher growth, less benefits from higher minimum wage, and all sorts of things paid for by soak the rich taxes / bankers bonus, where as same old Tories, tax cuts for rich, shaft the poor, etc etc etc.
    I'm sure that is correct, but I was thinking more what they will do to resolve the contradiction after they get into power and the narrative of good cuts vs bad cuts starts to face more pushback as they encounter the no cuts brigade with more force, as well as people realising cuts don't feel nice whoever is doing them or however necessary it might be.
    Doesn't matter once you have won.

    Also, Tories whacked up VAT, I doubt it will be a factor at 2015. A bod from IFS said that after each new government, the first year taxes always go up, and that it has zero affect on the outcome 4-5 years down the line.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    edited December 2014
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    ScottP A kiss of death for Ed I think, if voters want more austerity they will vote for the Coalition not Labour's austeritylite,

    I don't know about that. The Labour brand is more popular than the Tories
    27.9% in England at the last GE would suggest otherwise.
    The leader may have had an impact on that, not to mention the effect of being in power for 13 years. But how many times are we told Labour outpolls Ed M, and examples where Tory policies are liked until people are told they are Tory policies. Labour could say or do the same thing and it wouldn't spare them entirely, but they'd be given more benefit of the doubt, and that could be enough to see them over the line in 2015, given their inherent advantages in other factors.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @kle4

    ' The Labour brand is more popular than the Tories,

    What a whole 1 or is it 2% more popular brand?
  • UKIP remains a wolf in sheeps clothing, duping people with leftist policies so they can force through a right wing agenda which mostly benefits wealthy financiers like themselves.

    Can you offer an example of those policies?

    The 2010 manifesto advocated flat taxes.

    Paul Nuttall advocated getting rid of the NHS:

    http://onlinefocus.org/?p=14939
    ,
    Douglas Carswell ditto:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Plan-Twelve-months-Britain/dp/0955979900

    Now we have not seen the 2015 manifesto and perhaps Nigel may actually read it this time, but can we trust any party that has changed its mind so completely in such a short period of time?
    Fox, have you seen the headline story on the Mercury website? Really poor for us.
    Just seen it. Sounds awful. I knew there was trouble at J23 yesterday, but did not know what had happened.

    Skeleton services are a real risk to everyone.
    We'll get slated because of the strike, and HQ will get slated for the makeshift crew. I know a lot more, but, obviously not prudent to comment on the internet.

    Best stay quiet then. Maybe the truth will out. It would be a much bigger news story if it had happened within the M25.
    As would yesterdays news in my part of our patch:

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-30386128

    One part of this is the bizarre "Marginal Emergency Tariff" which means that NHS hospitals are out of pocket for 70% of costs for all emergency admissions over the 2008 level.

    http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/1-billion-nhs-funds-withheld-dispatches

    No wonder we are broke! What do the commissioners want us to do? Turn away ambulances because we have had our quota of admissions that day?

    The tariff structure rewards elective care (and the private companies that do some of this work, and penalises hospitals that take emergency admissions.
    We were really struggling for ambulances over the weekend, waited for over an hour at an RTC with 2 casualties who we had to leave in situ. That's happening a lot, and they havent had any cuts! The car paramedic who was on her own for ages reckons they're at about 97% capacity.

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    I still genuinely don't understand how people can straight-facedly refer to Miliband as "Red Ed" when he's committed to cutting spending more than Tony Blair would ever have dreamed of.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Danny565 said:

    I still genuinely don't understand how people can straight-facedly refer to Miliband as "Red Ed" when he's committed to cutting spending more than Tony Blair would ever have dreamed of.

    People prefer to fight the enemy as they wish them to be, not as they are. It's easier.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited December 2014

    UKIP remains a wolf in sheeps clothing, duping people with leftist policies so they can force through a right wing agenda which mostly benefits wealthy financiers like themselves.

    Can you offer an example of those policies?

    The 2010 manifesto advocated flat taxes.

    Paul Nuttall advocated getting rid of the NHS:

    http://onlinefocus.org/?p=14939
    ,
    Douglas Carswell ditto:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Plan-Twelve-months-Britain/dp/0955979900

    Now we have not seen the 2015 manifesto and perhaps Nigel may actually read it this time, but can we trust any party that has changed its mind so completely in such a short period of time?
    Fox, have you seen the headline story on the Mercury website? Really poor for us.
    Just seen it. Sounds awful. I knew there was trouble at J23 yesterday, but did not know what had happened.

    Skeleton services are a real risk to everyone.
    We'll get slated because of the strike, and HQ will get slated for the makeshift crew. I know a lot more, but, obviously not prudent to comment on the internet.

    Best stay quiet then. Maybe the truth will out. It would be a much bigger news story if it had happened within the M25.
    As would yesterdays news in my part of our patch:

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-30386128

    One part of this is the bizarre "Marginal Emergency Tariff" which means that NHS hospitals are out of pocket for 70% of costs for all emergency admissions over the 2008 level.

    http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/1-billion-nhs-funds-withheld-dispatches

    No wonder we are broke! What do the commissioners want us to do? Turn away ambulances because we have had our quota of admissions that day?

    The tariff structure rewards elective care (and the private companies that do some of this work, and penalises hospitals that take emergency admissions.
    We were really struggling for ambulances over the weekend, waited for over an hour at an RTC with 2 casualties who we had to leave in situ. That's happening a lot, and they havent had any cuts! The car paramedic who was on her own for ages reckons they're at about 97% capacity.

    I stopped for a bicyclist with a head injury a week ago on my way home. It took ages for the Ambo's to arrive (though the first responder was there in about 15 minutes).

    There is no slack in the system.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,889
    kle4 Ed's problem is leftwing voters can now vote Green or SNP now, they do not just have to vote Labour if they dislike the Coalition's cuts, after this announcement more will do so
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    Danny565 said:

    I still genuinely don't understand how people can straight-facedly refer to Miliband as "Red Ed" when he's committed to cutting spending more than Tony Blair would ever have dreamed of.

    Danny I'm starting to wonder if you are a secret Tory trying to discredit the left. One of the biggest mistakes the left has made is allowed itself to be seen as the 'spend more money' option. Ironically it was actually New Labour that helped create this image since they seemed to surrender to the Tories on virtually every other area. With a deficit of £90bn you'd have to be very left wing not to impose at least some sending cuts. The left should be concerned with helping to improve the quality of life of the great majority of the population with a particular focus on reducing inequalities of wealth, power and opportunity. That does usually involve spending more money than the Tories would. Which is what Ed Miliband proposes, I think.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    isam said:

    Right back to where we started...

    A good, honest local boy!

    Gawain Towler ‏@GawainTowler · 26m26 minutes ago
    Cllr Kerry Smith selected for Thurrock and South Basildon @ukip


    Why was he deselected in the first place.
    Why was Hamiltion parachuted in to only be machinegunned on landing, like that bloke on the church tower in The Longest Day?
    UKIP seem to be confused over who the fall guy was meant to be.

    Bit of a relief that Farage only has to claim an 'allowance' not expenses, and can have a chauffer driven car no questions asked.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited December 2014
    I've greatly enjoyed @bigjohnowls comically hypocritical contortions regarding Hinchingbrooke. Bravo! Quite apart from the hilarity of his denying the straightforward facts of the case, the most delightful bit of his 'logic' (if that's not too strong a word) was this post:

    Burnham would not have appointed Circle in 2011 if he had been SOS IMO (and his!!!)

    So, to get this straight: the argument is that the tendering process was a sham, and that it was always going to be fixed for ideological reasons in favour of an NHS provider (not that there was one by the time that Burnham left office, but obviously mere facts can't be allowed to interfere with Labour prejudice).

    Brilliant! More please!
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    edited December 2014
    This could be one of those speeches that Ed just has to make, so that his stance is "on the record" and he can then move on to more positive, voter friendly issues after Christmas. The same reasoning with the speech about immigration a few weeks ago. I think one of the reasons why Labour are behind in economic credibility polls is their refusal to even engage in the economic debate in the past.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 Ed's problem is leftwing voters can now vote Green or SNP now, they do not just have to vote Labour if they dislike the Coalition's cuts, after this announcement more will do so

    It would be very interesting if they do end up doing that in significant numbers. I hope they do, that the polls do not end up being misleading on that score - if nothing else, it makes things very interesting, and the main parties will have no choice but to really take a look at themselves and work very hard to come up with something more appealing if they want to avoid future coalitions. One of my concerns for years is that Labour will get back in far too easily thanks to Tory and LD weakness, without having learned anything as a result.

    Good night all.
  • Ah, so we're back to January 2012:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jan/14/ed-balls-labour-cuts-pay

    Or maybe January 2011:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/jan/21/ed-balls-accepts-need-for-deficit-cuts

    The only thing is, whenever it comes to any actual policies to achieve these noble aims, all we have ever got is carping about what the coalition is doing.

    I'm not holding my breath for anything different in Labour Prudence Version 3.0.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    HYUFD said:

    ScottP A kiss of death for Ed I think, if voters want more austerity they will vote for the Coalition not Labour's austeritylite, expect a further rise in Labour to Green movement as a result

    Labour cuts are cuddly and remind you of Paddington Bear. In fact they are not cuts at all not really. They are magic cuts that don't cut even though you are told they are cuts they don't cut. Well they do but they don't not really honest but if, if if if, there are any cuts that labour cut then if if if, they affect you - or you - or you - then don't worry, Labour will spend more to make sure they don't hurt any of you. Labour cuts are clever like that.
    (extract from Labour draft manifesto)
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689


    I stopped for a bicyclist with a head injury a week ago on my way home. It took ages for the Ambo's to arrive (though the first responder was there in about 15 minutes).

    There is no slack in the system.

    The problems in the ambulance service I have no doubt are the same as the problems in most of the public sector....too much box ticking....too much back office.

    It would not suprise me to learn there is at least 1 back office staff member for every ambulance on the road.

    Case in point

    http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Minister-slams-expenses-East-England-Ambulance-Service-boss/story-22369171-detail/story.html

    just picking on one point he gets a taxi costing 400£ to go to his office to answer emails. Give him secure vpn access like just about every company out there and he will instantly save the ambulance service 400£ a week. I am sure that particular service has similar extravagances that they could do without and it would end up putting more ambulances on the road.

    When it comes down to it ambulances aren't totally different from taxi services. They need a few more back office staff for assessment obviously but not that many more. One dispatcher to maybe ten ambulance crews. What more do you need? I am pretty sure however we would find the ratio is a damn sight lower than that and that if cuts hit it will be the crews that get cut and not the back office staff

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited December 2014
    Sean_F said:

    That was then. UKIP were defeated at the election on that manifesto, and are quite at liberty to propose another.

    Indeed, but normally a party's senior people who launch a manifesto, and say how wonderful it is, have at least read it.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    I still genuinely don't understand how people can straight-facedly refer to Miliband as "Red Ed" when he's committed to cutting spending more than Tony Blair would ever have dreamed of.

    Danny I'm starting to wonder if you are a secret Tory trying to discredit the left. One of the biggest mistakes the left has made is allowed itself to be seen as the 'spend more money' option. Ironically it was actually New Labour that helped create this image since they seemed to surrender to the Tories on virtually every other area. With a deficit of £90bn you'd have to be very left wing not to impose at least some sending cuts. The left should be concerned with helping to improve the quality of life of the great majority of the population with a particular focus on reducing inequalities of wealth, power and opportunity. That does usually involve spending more money than the Tories would. Which is what Ed Miliband proposes, I think.
    Are 60% of the public (the proportion who says no more cuts are necessary) seriously left-wing then?

    I don't deny that there'll be some people who don't vote Labour because they think they're careless with money. But at the same time, there are a great many people who DO vote Labour because they like that they provide good public services and help for the poor, something that inevitably costs money. Labour's big strength (being caring) and their big weakness (the "incompetence" tag that comes with spending the money needed to be caring) are two sides of the same coin: you can't take one away without taking away the other at the same time.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,034
    Danny565 said:

    I still genuinely don't understand how people can straight-facedly refer to Miliband as "Red Ed" when he's committed to cutting spending more than Tony Blair would ever have dreamed of.

    Because the political landscape is such that he has pretty much no choice but to say he will cut spending?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,889
    edited December 2014
    kle4 Indeed, the election may well boil down to which of the Greens/SNP or UKIP do least damage to the Labour or Tory vote and seat count
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited December 2014
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    I still genuinely don't understand how people can straight-facedly refer to Miliband as "Red Ed" when he's committed to cutting spending more than Tony Blair would ever have dreamed of.

    Danny I'm starting to wonder if you are a secret Tory trying to discredit the left. One of the biggest mistakes the left has made is allowed itself to be seen as the 'spend more money' option. Ironically it was actually New Labour that helped create this image since they seemed to surrender to the Tories on virtually every other area. With a deficit of £90bn you'd have to be very left wing not to impose at least some sending cuts. The left should be concerned with helping to improve the quality of life of the great majority of the population with a particular focus on reducing inequalities of wealth, power and opportunity. That does usually involve spending more money than the Tories would. Which is what Ed Miliband proposes, I think.
    Are 60% of the public (the proportion who says no more cuts are necessary) seriously left-wing then?

    I don't deny that there'll be some people who don't vote Labour because they think they're careless with money. But at the same time, there are a great many people who DO vote Labour because they like that they provide good public services and help for the poor, something that inevitably costs money. Labour's big strength (being caring) and their big weakness (the "incompetence" tag that comes with spending the money needed to be caring) are two sides of the same coin: you can't take one away without taking away the other at the same time.
    To think labour is more caring is easy, lazy and wrong, on a level that is based on personal experience. I really can't think of any Tories (or kippers) that I know who wish short, medium or long term hardship on those who are going though a period of genuine hardship.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,889
    Flightpath After the Hollande debacle, I think leftwing voters will not be fooled twice
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,889
  • isam said:

    Right back to where we started...

    A good, honest local boy!

    Gawain Towler ‏@GawainTowler · 26m26 minutes ago
    Cllr Kerry Smith selected for Thurrock and South Basildon @ukip


    Why was he deselected in the first place.
    Why was Hamiltion parachuted in to only be machinegunned on landing, like that bloke on the church tower in The Longest Day?

    Or the Germans on Crete?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited December 2014
    The star Ukip candidate accusing her party’s general secretary of being a sex pest was last night exposed as a fantasist.

    Natasha Bolter’s claim of a top degree in politics, philosophy and economics from Oxford University unravelled when the institution took the rare step of denying she had ever attended.

    And the Mail has learnt she even misspelt her supposed Oxford alma mater Wadham College as ‘Wadam’ on her CV – and said she was aged 35, rather than 39....

    she did study in Oxford – on a teaching course at the now-defunct Westminster Institute of Education at Oxford Brookes University.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2869234/Ukip-s-sex-scandal-accuser-lied-going-Oxford-misspelt-college-CV.html

    The old in Oxford, not at Oxford....Seems like she also screwed up her story in that she was still texting Bird days after she claims all the stuff went down.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,889
    FU On newsnight last night she was telegenic, but from the Palin school of politics, if she had got into Oxford it would have had to have been a very bad year
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,902

    For fans of Karen Danczuk

    The perfect present? Labour MP’s wife Karen Danczuk sells signed, scented and predictably cleavage-heavy selfies for £10 on eBay

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2868158/Labour-MP-s-wife-Karen-Danczuk-sells-signed-scented-predictably-cleavage-heavy-selfies-10-eBay.html

    That's bizarre! How does that sit with the feminist adenda?

    Well she can sit on...oh wait this is a family site.
    Not on video she can't. It was banned by the authoritarian bansturbators who govern us a week ago.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/a-long-list-of-sex-acts-just-got-banned-in-uk-porn-9897174.html
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    MattW said:

    For fans of Karen Danczuk

    The perfect present? Labour MP’s wife Karen Danczuk sells signed, scented and predictably cleavage-heavy selfies for £10 on eBay

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2868158/Labour-MP-s-wife-Karen-Danczuk-sells-signed-scented-predictably-cleavage-heavy-selfies-10-eBay.html

    That's bizarre! How does that sit with the feminist adenda?

    Well she can sit on...oh wait this is a family site.
    Not on video she can't. It was banned by the authoritarian bansturbators who govern us a week ago.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/a-long-list-of-sex-acts-just-got-banned-in-uk-porn-9897174.html
    No it was the usual ineffectual authoritarian nonsense. All the same people can watch all the same videos in all the same places as a week ago, all that happens is a few video makers move to say Germany, and make their smut there and pay their taxes to the German government instead of the British government. No real effect on anything except the UK loses another income stream, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2014
    Important news — SeanT is back in the UK after his 5 star tour of Australia.

    http://www.twitter.com/thomasknox
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited December 2014
    AndyJS said:

    Important news — SeanT is back in the UK after his 5 star tour of Australia.

    http://www.twitter.com/thomasknox

    How will he cope having to mingle with the plebs and the bad weather.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    AndyJS said:

    Important news — SeanT is back in the UK after his 5 star tour of Australia.

    http://www.twitter.com/thomasknox

    Looks like his new book's out in January ...
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2014
    The idiocy is coming thick and fast at the moment.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11286821/Google-News-to-shut-down-in-Spain-over-Google-Tax.html
    Google says it will shut down its Google News service in Spain following a row with the country’s government over a law that will require the Internet search company to pay news organisations for linked content.
    Taxing links has to be the height of stupidity, now hundreds of thousands less people will visit their sites every day, good luck with the advertising revenue.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469

    TGOHF said:

    Come to this ding dong about Hinchingbrooke Hospital rather late.

    I was under the impression the reason it was out to tender was it was a total disaster and unable to continue as it was, and that since Circle has taken over it has actually been quite a good success story.

    Depends how you judge success

    Still in deficit, got half the cash it had a year ago but at least 1 person doing rather well.


    The salary of the most-highly paid employee at Hinchingbrooke Health Care NHS Trust in the
    financial year 2013/14, the Chief Executive Officer, was in the range of £235,000–£240,000.
    This was 9.2 times the median salary of the workforce, which was £25,783.
    The salary of the most-highly paid employee at Hinchingbrooke Health Care NHS Trust
    in the financial year 2012/13, the Medical Director, was in the range of £155,000–£160,000
    financial year end. This was 6.3 times the median salary of the workforce, which was £25,291.
    So much better then but you want social justice in the board room. What is the current total wage bill and whAt about patient outcomes ?
    Cash is king and Hinchinbrookes ain't got any.

    Clinical standards? You tell me. Their AR shows

    Diagnostics – maximum six-week wait for access to diagnostic tests - missed target

    Net promoter score (Friends and Family Test) target >80 actual 77.3

    Pressure ulcers – grades two to four actual 79

    Emergency MRSA screening compliance target 100% actual93.5%

    LInky please.

    And how do those compare to NHS hospitals in general? In other words, how many hospitals miss targets of all sorts?

    As I've said (and you seem to ignore): my recent experience of Hinchinbrooke has been much better than of Addenbrookes. It may be anecdata, but from a patient's viewpoint I'd have to rate Circle highly. Enough for us to choose to have our child there.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276

    The star Ukip candidate accusing her party’s general secretary of being a sex pest was last night exposed as a fantasist.

    Natasha Bolter’s claim of a top degree in politics, philosophy and economics from Oxford University unravelled when the institution took the rare step of denying she had ever attended.

    And the Mail has learnt she even misspelt her supposed Oxford alma mater Wadham College as ‘Wadam’ on her CV – and said she was aged 35, rather than 39....

    she did study in Oxford – on a teaching course at the now-defunct Westminster Institute of Education at Oxford Brookes University.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2869234/Ukip-s-sex-scandal-accuser-lied-going-Oxford-misspelt-college-CV.html

    The old in Oxford, not at Oxford....Seems like she also screwed up her story in that she was still texting Bird days after she claims all the stuff went down.

    Prior to 2000 when Westminster college was made part of Brookes, it's degrees were issued by Oxford University, and it's graduates are perfectly entitled to call themselves graduates of Oxford University.

    I know this because my wife attended here.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790

    I remember the Spitting Image sketch where the shades of the Hitler Youth were tied to the Tories with the song "Tomorrow Belongs To Me" in the eighties. And one of those same lampooned characters is now still trying to sing the same song....nearly thirty years later.

    That was the 1987 general election episode. The choirboy who sang the song was from my school (Trinity School Croydon).

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2014

    The star Ukip candidate accusing her party’s general secretary of being a sex pest was last night exposed as a fantasist.

    Natasha Bolter’s claim of a top degree in politics, philosophy and economics from Oxford University unravelled when the institution took the rare step of denying she had ever attended.

    And the Mail has learnt she even misspelt her supposed Oxford alma mater Wadham College as ‘Wadam’ on her CV – and said she was aged 35, rather than 39....

    she did study in Oxford – on a teaching course at the now-defunct Westminster Institute of Education at Oxford Brookes University.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2869234/Ukip-s-sex-scandal-accuser-lied-going-Oxford-misspelt-college-CV.html

    The old in Oxford, not at Oxford....Seems like she also screwed up her story in that she was still texting Bird days after she claims all the stuff went down.

    Prior to 2000 when Westminster college was made part of Brookes, it's degrees were issued by Oxford University, and it's graduates are perfectly entitled to call themselves graduates of Oxford University.

    I know this because my wife attended here.
    But possibly not entitled to say they went to Wadham College ? And certainly not entitled to say that have a degree in PPE when it appears they had a degree in Education.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2014
    "Ongar is one of the cheapest places in the UK to buy petrol. The BP garage on the Four Wantz roundabout and the Esso garage in the High Street are far lower than many other garages across the country.
    On Tuesday the BP garage was selling unleaded petrol for 113.9p per litre, while on Wednesday morning the BP garage was even cheaper at 112.9p per litre."


    http://www.brentwoodgazette.co.uk/Ongar-UK-s-cheapest-places-buy-petrol/story-25534704-detail/story.html
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    edited December 2014
    Indigo said:

    The star Ukip candidate accusing her party’s general secretary of being a sex pest was last night exposed as a fantasist.

    Natasha Bolter’s claim of a top degree in politics, philosophy and economics from Oxford University unravelled when the institution took the rare step of denying she had ever attended.

    And the Mail has learnt she even misspelt her supposed Oxford alma mater Wadham College as ‘Wadam’ on her CV – and said she was aged 35, rather than 39....

    she did study in Oxford – on a teaching course at the now-defunct Westminster Institute of Education at Oxford Brookes University.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2869234/Ukip-s-sex-scandal-accuser-lied-going-Oxford-misspelt-college-CV.html

    The old in Oxford, not at Oxford....Seems like she also screwed up her story in that she was still texting Bird days after she claims all the stuff went down.

    Prior to 2000 when Westminster college was made part of Brookes, it's degrees were issued by Oxford University, and it's graduates are perfectly entitled to call themselves graduates of Oxford University.

    I know this because my wife attended here.
    But possibly not entitled to say they went to Wadham College ? And certainly not entitled to say that have a degree in PPE when it appears they had a degree in Education.
    Of course not, she's appears to be a fantasist nutter. (Maybe she wanted to go to Wadham, but couldn't get in because there was too many Rumanian gypsies taking all the places)

    However, like Jeffery Archer, she's an Oxford graduate.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited December 2014
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2869314/Now-Miliband-raises-spectre-1930s-attacks-Tory-cuts-Labour-leader-say-party-impose-years-cuts-condemn-Conservatives-extreme-approach.html

    I think by the time of the election we are going to be sick of "back to the 1930's" more than bloody AV. How about back to 1998 instead?

    Do think Osborne has made a mistake here. If he had just fiddled his figures at tiny bit differently, he could have claimed back to 1998. While some people will claim that was a time when some public services did need investment, not sure most people on the street would say it was the total end to the world as we know it, as will be be painted over and over again.

    If it was "back to 98" was the attack, I imagine the Tories would point to a) ring fenced NHS and education and b) lots of "investment" since 1998 in public service infrastructure.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited December 2014

    I've greatly enjoyed @bigjohnowls comically hypocritical contortions regarding Hinchingbrooke. Bravo! Quite apart from the hilarity of his denying the straightforward facts of the case, the most delightful bit of his 'logic' (if that's not too strong a word) was this post:

    Burnham would not have appointed Circle in 2011 if he had been SOS IMO (and his!!!)

    So, to get this straight: the argument is that the tendering process was a sham, and that it was always going to be fixed for ideological reasons in favour of an NHS provider (not that there was one by the time that Burnham left office, but obviously mere facts can't be allowed to interfere with Labour prejudice).

    Brilliant! More please!


    The problem of course had Burnham stopped the process the legal bills could have been horrific. It takes a lot of work , effort and time to complete these types of bids. Once Burnham had removed the NHS bidders at an early stage and ensured that only privatised bids remained the dye was cast. I suspect this was meant to be just another Labour trick to allow them to do what the specific medical expert on this site of blaming the Toties / coalition for a situation Labour created and gave no escape from.

    Read the same for 50p tax rate in the last days of the BRown government. Nothing to do with what is good for the country just how can we screw up the next lot and provide a bat to beat them with.
This discussion has been closed.