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  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    A common sense move Osborne could have made on property would have been a special additional levy on foreign purchasers like Singapore.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/9805793/Singapore-gets-tough-on-foreign-property-buyers.html
  • Mr. Eagles, at least AV had the decency to die after its referendum was lost...
  • Bobajob_Bobajob_ Posts: 195
    Socca - late eighties/early nineties
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,709
    edited December 2014
    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
    How does everyone score above average? I’m not mathematically gifted, but ........

    It isn’t a question of terachers expectation of the children, but patrents expectation of the teachers and indeed of their children This particular thread started with a teachers complaint that if a child (in the case I quoted a sixth former) had lost interest in the subject it was automatically the teachers “fault”. No matter that others in the class were doing well
    It may be, of course. But it’s not automatically so.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2014
    If anyone's noticed any mistakes with the SNP target list please let me know. I'm hoping there aren't any.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    antifrank said:

    I'm shocked that UKIP haven't thought through the policy implications of immigration for transport more fully. If we had lanes on motorways reserved for the British-born, Nigel Farage's conference crisis would no doubt have been averted.

    It comes to something when even Tim Montgomerie starts criticising UKIP.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    edited December 2014

    Mr. Eagles, at least AV had the decency to die after its referendum was lost...

    That's because No2AV won as comprehensively as Scipio Africanus at Zama, unlike Better Together whose win was as Pyrrhic as Hannibal at Cannae
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Bobajob_ said:

    CycleFree - a hard lesson that is also quite wrong, as debt finance is the juice of a modern economy.

    A mortgage is a loan. Do you oppose mortgages?

    I was speaking personally not for the economy as a whole. I think this lesson is a good one for individuals. I repair stuff. I reuse stuff. I sniff around skips. I send stuff I no longer need to Freecycle or to friends with children younger than mine.: I have no debt and avoid it like the plague. I did have a mortgage - way lower than what my peers would get let alone some people in recent times - and paid it off as soon as I was able. Consequently I live in a modest house by comparison to my peers. But it's our family home and we're happy in it and with it.

    My parents did not have a mortgage.

    This lesson falls into Keynes's paradox of thrift. What may be good for individuals is not necessarily good for the economy if everyone does it.

    But people who spend more than they earn risk getting themselves into trouble.

    Learning to save up for stuff and learning that you need to earn your way in the world are not bad lessons for us all.

  • Yeah, well obviously you need to get rid of the stupid politically correct crap first and give more power to teachers to stand up to parents.

    Oh dear. These two statements are inconsistent. It is the teaching profession that espouses the crap. My wife did an OU Masters in Education for her own amusement. Lord, the crap they spout is just unimaginable. The whole academia and training around teaching has become a world unto itself. A bullshit lefty inward looking world. Part of Gove's epiphany was realising that it is largely unreformable and needs simply to be sidelined (via Free Schools).
  • Mr. Eagles, as well as using the figure of speech horrendously wrongly (Cannae was advantageous strategically for Hannibal, well worth the cost of victory), it's Pyrrhic.

    *sighs*
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The maximum possible vote for UKIP is probably about 25% in a general election context, so Farage can afford to constantly p*ss off the other 75% without affecting the party's chances.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    edited December 2014

    Mr. Eagles, as well as using the figure of speech horrendously wrongly (Cannae was advantageous strategically for Hannibal, well worth the cost of victory), it's Pyrrhic.

    *sighs*

    I had already corrected it, blooming auto-correct.

    But winning a battle isn't as impressive as winning a war.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Brent crude down to 67.41:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
    How does everyone score above average? I’m not mathematically gifted, but ........

    It isn’t a question of terachers expectation of the children, but patrents expectation of the teachers and indeed of their children This particular thread started with a teachers complaint that if a child (in the case I quoted a sixth former) had lost interest in the subject it was automatically the teachers “fault”. No matter that others in the class were doing well
    It may be, of course. But it’s not automatically so.
    It's the fashion to beat up on the teachers, and God knows I would like to blame the Guardian reading lay abouts for all our ills, but it really is the fault of the children and parents invariably.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited December 2014
    George Osborne: Cuts 'a price that works for our country'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30375080

    This is clearly the message the Tories are going to try and sell at the GE. Labour are obviously going to oppose it, and Lib Dem have decided to now as well (despite signing off the outline in the Autumn Statement).

    The polling doesn't suggest George is onto a winner here, either the direct questions in polling (which I am always a little skeptical about, as they often ask to choose between forced polar opposites), but also the lack of any bounce from the statement, despite some goodies being given out.

    Maybe he knows something we don't i.e. private polling where the questioning lays out slightly more nuanced / informed position, or maybe he believes in his position and will go down fighting that corner.
  • Mr. Eagles, at least AV had the decency to die after its referendum was lost...

    That's because No2AV won as comprehensively as Scipio Africanus at Zama, unlike Better Together whose win was as Pyrrhic as Hannibal at Cannae
    Is that because the LibDem forces were mostly elephants? (white elephants)
  • Mr. Eagles, depends on the battle and the war.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    edited December 2014
    Patrick said:

    Mr. Eagles, at least AV had the decency to die after its referendum was lost...

    That's because No2AV won as comprehensively as Scipio Africanus at Zama, unlike Better Together whose win was as Pyrrhic as Hannibal at Cannae
    Is that because the LibDem forces were mostly elephants? (white elephants)
    No the Lib Dems are like the Roman Emperor Valerian.

    Captured by their enemies, under the guise of coalition negotiations and used as human foot stools for the rest of their lives.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    stuff could only be acquired when you had earnt it however much you might have wanted it. A hard lesson maybe but a useful one.

    I've made this point before but in the past credit was far less available than it is now. My dad ran a small building business in the 1970s and 1980s and the tradesmen were paid their wages in cash, tax and NI deducted.

    They stopped spending when the money ran out. There was no credit.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,709
    The plump, well fed (and paid) heir to a large fortune tells the country that cuts are good for it. In the same news bulletin the BBC reports on the increased use of foodbank.

    Do I hear a tumbril in the distance?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    Cyclefree said:


    I was speaking personally not for the economy as a whole. I think this lesson is a good one for individuals. I repair stuff. I reuse stuff. I sniff around skips. I send stuff I no longer need to Freecycle or to friends with children younger than mine.: I have no debt and avoid it like the plague. I did have a mortgage - way lower than what my peers would get let alone some people in recent times - and paid it off as soon as I was able. Consequently I live in a modest house by comparison to my peers. But it's our family home and we're happy in it and with it.

    My parents did not have a mortgage.

    This lesson falls into Keynes's paradox of thrift. What may be good for individuals is not necessarily good for the economy if everyone does it.

    But people who spend more than they earn risk getting themselves into trouble.

    Learning to save up for stuff and learning that you need to earn your way in the world are not bad lessons for us all.

    That's an example of how environment and upbringing shapes attitudes and mores. My parents did get a mortgage when they bought their property in the mid-50s.

    Grandfather Stodge was apparently appalled when Father Stodge announced he had obtained a fixed mortgage of 2% - Grandfather thought that was too high a rate. Needless to say, Dad was laughing by the 1970s and, in common with many other homeowners of the time, was able to avoid the worst excesses of inflation and high interest rates.

    On top of that, the value of the property we subsequently moved to increased thirty-fold in thirty years which is a good return in anyone's money.

    I've had a mortgage since I bought my first home in the mid-80s. Mrs Stodge and I have frantically paid ours down in the past six or seven years but there are advantages to retaining a small mortgage. One of the signs of recovery in East London is after a long period there's a lot of home improvement going on - people who were either paying down the outstanding loan or didn't feel secure enough to spend money on houses are doing so again.

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Moses_ said:

    BenM said:

    This always happens when discussing foodbank use - those with Right leaning sympathies ignore the human costs and drag up supply and demand curves from half remembered economic theory.

    But that argument is easily killed off by pointing out that foodbank use is rationed - you to be referred to them.

    So the demand is not coming from fabled market forces, it's coming from deliberate government sanction. Tory sanctions.


    I see Ben is completely ignoring the reasons why any of this is happening in the first place. Ben should rename himself Airbrush because that's what jhe does to any history before or after Tory governments. Those periods simply do not exist in left wing winter of discontent wonderland.

    , Labour did everything right and year dot has now been moved from 1979 to 2010. No doubt after a further crippling 5 years of his scocialism year dot will then be moved to 2020. iDS will become the new Thatcher until 2050.

    It is the way of the left wing fantasy world they seem to inhabit but meanwhile we will be a basket case as is always the case at the end of Laabour governments. I have seen the same thing same outcomes since the days of Wilson
    All the more shocking that a bevvy of nutjobs should want to shoehorn Miliband back into power.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
    Firstly, you're wrong. Finland does have immigrants in Helsinki and they score better than our natives do. Canada has plenty of immigrants and they do just as well on test scores as the natives. The effect of immigration on these education results has been much explored by the academic literature and doesn't explain the difference.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    unlike Better Together whose win was as Pyrrhic as Hannibal at Cannae

    Not King Pyrrhus at Heraclea?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    BenM said:

    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
    They're all the same jokes written by the same person! How does one differ from any other?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    The plump, well fed (and paid) heir to a large fortune tells the country that cuts are good for it. In the same news bulletin the BBC reports on the increased use of foodbank.

    Do I hear a tumbril in the distance?

    Let them eat cake ....

    Small Slices (obesity crisis) .... Foodbank (austerity) .... British Only (Ukip bake off)

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    isam said:

    BenM said:

    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
    They're all the same jokes written by the same person! How does one differ from any other?
    If you're part of the anti-UKIP brigade someone just needs to include "UKIP" in a sentence with reference to one of the manufactured outrages and you'll be on the floor rolling with laughter.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Stodge: I value my independence. It doesn't matter how much you earn. If your debts are greater than your earnings you're still a wage slave.

    Accumulating stuff when all that does is make you vulnerable if you lose your job or limits your freedom to do something less well paid is a trap, a gilt-edged one, maybe - but a trap nonetheless.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    BenM said:

    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
    They're all the same jokes written by the same person! How does one differ from any other?
    If you're part of the anti-UKIP brigade someone just needs to include "UKIP" in a sentence with reference to one of the manufactured outrages and you'll be on the floor rolling with laughter.
    I suppose it gives lefties the chance to laugh at jokes that used to have minorities as the target

    Which N word would you not want to be calling a UKIP voter? etc etc
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    I’ve read a lot of speculation on this site that there will be significant anti-SNP tactical voting in May 2015. Living in Central Scotland, I am unaware of any Conservative friends who would be prepared to effectively vote for Ed Milliband, if anything they would be more likely to vote SNP to reduce Labour’s chances of getting a majority. If SLAB start actively campaigning for Conservative tactical votes I think their support level would collapse yet further.

    Turning to the Holyrood 2016 election, I think there is much more scope for tactical voting. This is due to the vagaries of the D’Hondt method, which Labour introduced to Scotland to ensure that the SNP would never get a majority. Based on current polling the SNP would win virtually all constituency seats. Unless the SNP are expected to get over 50% of the regional vote in a particular region, in which case D’Hondt would work in their favour, most of the SNP regional votes are wasted. Therefore, I would expect SNP tactical voting and anticipate the Green’s being the major beneficiary of these votes. The Greens could end up beating the conservatives into third place and giving Labour yet another party to worry about in Scotland !!
  • Socrates said:

    isam said:

    BenM said:

    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
    They're all the same jokes written by the same person! How does one differ from any other?
    If you're part of the anti-UKIP brigade someone just needs to include "UKIP" in a sentence with reference to one of the manufactured outrages and you'll be on the floor rolling with laughter.
    Never fear, after UKIP have swept to power, the Ministry of UKIP-Approved Humour will ensure that such deviance is squashed. Once each comedy club has been issued with Bernard Manning's jokebook and each tweet has been compulsorily put through a Jim Davidson filter, the danger of the Beloved Leader being subjected to mockery by the unworthy will rapidly dissipate.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @IsabelHardman: Stephen Timms in his question called Conservatives the "Tory welfare waste party". Part of Labour's focus on wasteful spending.

    Am I the only one surprised that Labour are launching a campaign aligning the words Welfare and Wasteful spending in the same sound-bite?

    What sort of core vote strategy is that?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    The plump, well fed (and paid) heir to a large fortune tells the country that cuts are good for it. In the same news bulletin the BBC reports on the increased use of foodbank.

    Do I hear a tumbril in the distance?

    How do you know he is heir to a large fortune? Have you read his father's will?

    BTW he's less plump than he was, certainly less plump than the Shadow Chancellor.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
    How does everyone score above average? I’m not mathematically gifted, but ........
    The most common way for nearly all to be above average is for it to be a skewed distribution. Most people have 2 legs, some have 1, some zero. The average is therefore 1.9999 and the vast majority are above average on this metric.

  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    George Osborne: Cuts 'a price that works for our country'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30375080

    This is clearly the message the Tories are going to try and sell at the GE. Labour are obviously going to oppose it, and Lib Dem have decided to now as well (despite signing off the outline in the Autumn Statement).

    The polling doesn't suggest George is onto a winner here, either the direct questions in polling (which I am always a little skeptical about, as they often ask to choose between forced polar opposites), but also the lack of any bounce from the statement, despite some goodies being given out.

    Maybe he knows something we don't i.e. private polling where the questioning lays out slightly more nuanced / informed position, or maybe he believes in his position and will go down fighting that corner.

    The Conservatives have torn out and eaten the page of the dictionary with the word "overreach" on it.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    Moses_ said:

    I see Ben is completely ignoring the reasons why any of this is happening in the first place. Ben should rename himself Airbrush because that's what jhe does to any history before or after Tory governments. Those periods simply do not exist in left wing winter of discontent wonderland.

    , Labour did everything right and year dot has now been moved from 1979 to 2010. No doubt after a further crippling 5 years of his scocialism year dot will then be moved to 2020. iDS will become the new Thatcher until 2050.

    It is the way of the left wing fantasy world they seem to inhabit but meanwhile we will be a basket case as is always the case at the end of Laabour governments. I have seen the same thing same outcomes since the days of Wilson

    I'm afraid Labour are far from the only ones who airbrush history or alter it to suit their arguments. The Conservatives spent most of the 80s and early 90s harping on about "the Winter of Discontent" until everyone had forgotten about it and every statistic was measured against 1979 rather than more recent performance.

    It's what Governments and Oppositions do - the Right are just as bad. 2010 is touted as year zero now by the Coalition - 2015 will be by the next Government.

    On the other aspect, it was the Conservatives who were weakened to the point of political collapse in both February 1974 and May 1997. Arguably, the economy wasn't doing too well either in Feb 1974 - I remember having to do my homework by candlelight.


  • Bobajob_ said:

    CycleFree - a hard lesson that is also quite wrong, as debt finance is the juice of a modern economy.

    A mortgage is a loan. Do you oppose mortgages?

    Thought experiment for you:

    How much would houses cost if there was and never had been any such thing as mortgages?

    (Or more realistically, if they had not been allowed to ever be more than 3x one income?)

    I strongly suspect Joe average would be a lot richer, and the banks a lot poorer. But it's too late now. Debt is king, as you imply. Although you seem rather more relaxed about it than most.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,709

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
    How does everyone score above average? I’m not mathematically gifted, but ........
    The most common way for nearly all to be above average is for it to be a skewed distribution. Most people have 2 legs, some have 1, some zero. The average is therefore 1.9999 and the vast majority are above average on this metric.

    Like it!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    antifrank said:
    Looking at the picture at the top of that Twitter feed, Farage was right. Every single car has a foreign number plate, and someone's stolen the central reservation barriers as well. Blooming immigrants, coming over here and ruining our roads for genuine woman-fearing idiotsUKIP supporters.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    BenM said:

    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
    They're all the same jokes written by the same person! How does one differ from any other?
    If you're part of the anti-UKIP brigade someone just needs to include "UKIP" in a sentence with reference to one of the manufactured outrages and you'll be on the floor rolling with laughter.
    Never fear, after UKIP have swept to power, the Ministry of UKIP-Approved Humour will ensure that such deviance is squashed. Once each comedy club has been issued with Bernard Manning's jokebook and each tweet has been compulsorily put through a Jim Davidson filter, the danger of the Beloved Leader being subjected to mockery by the unworthy will rapidly dissipate.
    Jim Davidson you say? The Conservatives MPs comic of choice while they make ethnic slurs about their constituency opponents #Timur

    Jackie Doyle-PriceVerified account
    @JackieDP Great show by @JimDOfficial no thanks to the Dartford crossing. A crusader against political correctness, I salute you

    11:14 PM - 29 Nov 2014
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Bobajob_ said:

    CycleFree - a hard lesson that is also quite wrong, as debt finance is the juice of a modern economy.

    A mortgage is a loan. Do you oppose mortgages?

    Thought experiment for you:

    How much would houses cost if there was and never had been any such thing as mortgages?

    (Or more realistically, if they had not been allowed to ever be more than 3x one income?)

    I strongly suspect Joe average would be a lot richer, and the banks a lot poorer. But it's too late now. Debt is king, as you imply. Although you seem rather more relaxed about it than most.
    The current restrictions on mortgage lending are pushing us to the position we used to be in. There are regularly in the finance pages sob stories from people unable to raise the amount they hoped. Some may be well-founded complaints but some seem to amount to little more than people being made to realise that if they want a mortgage they can't spend the same amount on coffees, clothes, going out and other luxuries as they used to.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    antifrank said:

    I'm shocked that UKIP haven't thought through the policy implications of immigration for transport more fully. If we had lanes on motorways reserved for the British-born, Nigel Farage's conference crisis would no doubt have been averted.

    It comes to something when even Tim Montgomerie starts criticising UKIP.
    He's critical of their position on international development today in the Times
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
    How does everyone score above average? I’m not mathematically gifted, but ........
    The most common way for nearly all to be above average is for it to be a skewed distribution. Most people have 2 legs, some have 1, some zero. The average is therefore 1.9999 and the vast majority are above average on this metric.

    Like it!
    It is why most Doctors are above average!
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Cable replies to a petition (which I encourage others to sign) calling for the upholding of VAT exemption on digital products:
    http://www.change.org/p/vince-cable-mp-uphold-the-vat-exemption-threshold-for-businesses-supplying-digital-products/responses/25596

    The claim it's been well-communicated is a crock of shit. I'm sure larger firms were notified and engaged with, but the first I (and many others) heard of it was just over a month ago. He also doesn't address the central problem, which is that the law is ****ing stupid.


    The new EU VAT arrangements for UK microbusinesses who sell products over the internet to EU countries is both horrendous EU bureaucracy and damaging for UK exports.

    Whilst there is a tax logic to the tax law, it should have been assessed back in 2008 for the cost to microbusinesses and the impact on UK exports - a black mark for Labour.

    The fact that the government has not informed the bulk of businesses affected on Jan 1st, is a black mark for the coalition parties.

    It's a gift to UKIP. Wait for the fireworks.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/businessclub/11268706/Victory-for-UK-micro-firms-as-HMRC-tweaks-EU-VAT-MOSS-rule.html

    Businesses can use the 'Mini One Stop Shop' (so they do not have to register in every EU country) but they do not have to charge VAT to UK customers.

    Others will I am sure know better than me but it looks as if there is currently a massive tax black hole in terms of VAT e-sales. This may change that.
    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/dec/03/vat-loophole-digital-sales-olympics
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited December 2014
    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    BenM said:

    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
    They're all the same jokes written by the same person! How does one differ from any other?
    If you're part of the anti-UKIP brigade someone just needs to include "UKIP" in a sentence with reference to one of the manufactured outrages and you'll be on the floor rolling with laughter.
    Never fear, after UKIP have swept to power, the Ministry of UKIP-Approved Humour will ensure that such deviance is squashed. Once each comedy club has been issued with Bernard Manning's jokebook and each tweet has been compulsorily put through a Jim Davidson filter, the danger of the Beloved Leader being subjected to mockery by the unworthy will rapidly dissipate.
    This is hugely ironic, as UKIP are the only party that actually believes in free speech. Just because we thing some speech is incorrect or stupid doesn't mean it should be banned. That's a viewpoint that's restricted to Labourites, Liberal Democrats and Conservatives. Even truly terrible stuff like racism or Abba music should be allowed.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
    How does everyone score above average? I’m not mathematically gifted, but ........
    The most common way for nearly all to be above average is for it to be a skewed distribution. Most people have 2 legs, some have 1, some zero. The average is therefore 1.9999 and the vast majority are above average on this metric.

    It really does legally mandate that every student be proficient, B grade, or above in maths and reading by 2014, no matter how daft the student.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    antifrank said:
    Looking at the picture at the top of that Twitter feed, Farage was right. Every single car has a foreign number plate, and someone's stolen the central reservation barriers as well. Blooming immigrants, coming over here and ruining our roads for genuine woman-fearing idiotsUKIP supporters.
    Fortunately there are no queues at the Trumpton Hilton, thanks to all the Trumpton Poles!
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    BenM said:

    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
    They're all the same jokes written by the same person! How does one differ from any other?
    If you're part of the anti-UKIP brigade someone just needs to include "UKIP" in a sentence with reference to one of the manufactured outrages and you'll be on the floor rolling with laughter.
    Never fear, after UKIP have swept to power, the Ministry of UKIP-Approved Humour will ensure that such deviance is squashed. Once each comedy club has been issued with Bernard Manning's jokebook and each tweet has been compulsorily put through a Jim Davidson filter, the danger of the Beloved Leader being subjected to mockery by the unworthy will rapidly dissipate.
    This is hugely ironic, as UKIP are the only party that actually believes in free speech. Just because we thing some speech is incorrect or stupid doesn't mean it should be banned. That's a viewpoint that's restricted to Labourites, Liberal Democrats and Conservatives. Even truly terrible stuff like racism or Abba music should be allowed.
    UKIP are the only party that believes in free speech?

    Har har har. As long as you sit in a corner with a napkin over your head.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469

    Bobajob_ said:

    CycleFree - a hard lesson that is also quite wrong, as debt finance is the juice of a modern economy.

    A mortgage is a loan. Do you oppose mortgages?

    Thought experiment for you:

    How much would houses cost if there was and never had been any such thing as mortgages?

    (Or more realistically, if they had not been allowed to ever be more than 3x one income?)

    I strongly suspect Joe average would be a lot richer, and the banks a lot poorer. But it's too late now. Debt is king, as you imply. Although you seem rather more relaxed about it than most.
    That's an interesting one, and I think that it will not have made much difference - the banks would just have found other ways of marking their money in he absence of mortgages. Perhaps buying houses and renting them back to the owners in a reverse equity-release scheme (ISTR there are such things now). The longer you stay, the more of the house you own.

    Or, because people would need bigger deposits, they would reduce the interest on large deposits.

    Banks will want to make money out of their punters. It's what they do, for all the cuddly adverts (including the Co-op bank's hideous one atm) that try to pretend otherwise.

    Is the problem that mortgages are just too easy for banks to make money out of, and therefore they did/do not put the required effort in?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2014
    I never found Jim Davidson particularly funny. And so formed a kind of 'nothing much' opinion. But then I read Seven Troop by Andy McNab. Opened my eyes to Davidson's very generous support for soldiers in need (PTSD mostly), including alot of his own personal time and help. Changed my view of him entirely. He's still not funny - but now I clock him as one of the good guys.

    (and FWIW I think all governments of recent decades have failed soldiers badly in giving adequate PTSD and reintegration support. It shocks that more Falklands soldiers have died of suicide than in the actual war, for example).
  • Mr. Flightpath, VATMOSS was reportedly not fit in October, and there are complaints that those trying to register ahead of time cannot because they're under the £81k UK VAT threshold (but there's zero threshold for the EU VAT insanity).

    The tweaks Amazon have made, I think, mean that UK authors get lower royalties. And yeah, the new law will get a little more from Amazon, whilst destroying many SMEs and forcing even more to use online portals. Like Amazon. In short, the net result will be to entrench the advantage large internet firms already have.

    It's indefensibly badly written.

    I'm considering putting my prices up, which is something I really don't want to do [they will rise marginally anyway, as Amazon is increasing, effectively, the minimum pricing its royalty schemes].
  • CD13 said:

    Mr Eagles,

    "It is Hoi Polloi, two L's, not one."

    I stand castigated but those bloody Greeks never could write proper.

    Leave us Plebs alone (and yes, I understand it should be' we plebs').

    NO - it should be 'us Plebs'! The Plebs are the OBJECT of the 'leaving alone'!
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2014
    Cyclefree said:

    Accumulating stuff when all that does is make you vulnerable if you lose your job or limits your freedom to do something less well paid is a trap, a gilt-edged one, maybe - but a trap nonetheless.

    The same could be said about a wife/husband and family ;-)

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,536
    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    BenM said:

    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
    They're all the same jokes written by the same person! How does one differ from any other?
    If you're part of the anti-UKIP brigade someone just needs to include "UKIP" in a sentence with reference to one of the manufactured outrages and you'll be on the floor rolling with laughter.
    It was the same in the 80s when you only had to mention "Thatcher" or "Tebbit" to get the bien-pensants laughing.

    The problem with flippancy, as C S Lewis observed, is the assumption that the joke has already been made.

  • Cable replies to a petition (which I encourage others to sign) calling for the upholding of VAT exemption on digital products:
    http://www.change.org/p/vince-cable-mp-uphold-the-vat-exemption-threshold-for-businesses-supplying-digital-products/responses/25596

    The claim it's been well-communicated is a crock of shit. I'm sure larger firms were notified and engaged with, but the first I (and many others) heard of it was just over a month ago. He also doesn't address the central problem, which is that the law is ****ing stupid.


    The new EU VAT arrangements for UK microbusinesses who sell products over the internet to EU countries is both horrendous EU bureaucracy and damaging for UK exports.

    Whilst there is a tax logic to the tax law, it should have been assessed back in 2008 for the cost to microbusinesses and the impact on UK exports - a black mark for Labour.

    The fact that the government has not informed the bulk of businesses affected on Jan 1st, is a black mark for the coalition parties.

    It's a gift to UKIP. Wait for the fireworks.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/businessclub/11268706/Victory-for-UK-micro-firms-as-HMRC-tweaks-EU-VAT-MOSS-rule.html

    Businesses can use the 'Mini One Stop Shop' (so they do not have to register in every EU country) but they do not have to charge VAT to UK customers.

    Others will I am sure know better than me but it looks as if there is currently a massive tax black hole in terms of VAT e-sales. This may change that.
    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/dec/03/vat-loophole-digital-sales-olympics
    Currently sorting this out for a couple of small start-ups I have elsewhere in Europe and it is a total pain in the arse, and going to cost me, both in setup costs and ongoing costs of paying for a IT solution.

    The principle is fine, why should you sell across Europe and not pay the VAT at the rates in the country where you are selling to, but now we have gone from 10,000's Euro threshold before I need to worry in most countries to 0. So literally if I sell something for 99c, I am liable to make sure all my VAT etc is in order, which is a total nightmare for start-ups where income is going to be highly uncertain.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited December 2014
    @SamCoatesTimes: Labour frontbench - in the form of Margaret Curran, shadow Scottish Secretary - formally endorses Jim Murphy.

    EDIT: @politicsftwin: @SamCoatesTimes As she says in the email, she said she wouldn't....worried that Findlay might squeak through?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,709

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
    How does everyone score above average? I’m not mathematically gifted, but ........
    The most common way for nearly all to be above average is for it to be a skewed distribution. Most people have 2 legs, some have 1, some zero. The average is therefore 1.9999 and the vast majority are above average on this metric.

    Like it!
    It is why most Doctors are above average!
    I’ve often wondered what the passmark was in medical exams!

    We used to have to get 80% (at least) in prescription reading. That was before the advent of computer written prescriptions.
  • TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    Here is the graph of opinion polls this term, clearly showing the damage caused to UKIP by Farage's leadership, and the unholy gaffes caused the purple downfall

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2015_United_Kingdom_general_election#mediaviewer/File:UK_opinion_polling_2010-2015.png

    Not been updated since 7th of November. I note Kippers haven't been above 20% since they were in 2 polls in the week before...
    Haha

    In June you were saying "UKIP just don't get 15% anymore".. now you're defence is "UKIP just aren't getting 20% anymore"

    See where this is going?
    An update of that graph would show a flatlining if not a dip. It matters not what I say - them's just the facts.

    The number MPs after the GE is a more important number than "what they once polled in October. If it isn't you aint doing it right.
    Sunil Prasannan ‏@Sunil_P2 · 18h18 hours ago
    Sunil on Sunday ELBOW (Electoral Leader-Board Of the Week) update 7th Dec: Lab 32.9%, Con 31.4%, UKIP 16.1%, LD 7.3%
    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/541711593332297728
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Fortunately there are no queues at the Trumpton Hilton, thanks to all the Trumpton Poles!

    Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Akhbar, Ramirez, Patel.....
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    edited December 2014
    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
    Firstly, you're wrong. Finland does have immigrants in Helsinki and they score better than our natives do. Canada has plenty of immigrants and they do just as well on test scores as the natives. The effect of immigration on these education results has been much explored by the academic literature and doesn't explain the difference.
    "Immigrants performed poorly compared to Finnish majority population

    Disparities in problem-solving between students of Finnish origin and those with an immigrant background were significant in all participating countries. In Finland the average score was 526 points among the majority population whereas the score for second-generation immigrant students was 461 points, and that for first-generation immigrants was 426 points. The disparity between immigrants and native students in Finland was wider than the average for all participating countries. Finnish-speaking and Swedish-speaking schools both performed almost equally well."

    http://www.minedu.fi/OPM/Tiedotteet/2014/04/Pisa_ongelmanratkaisu.html

    Wrong, talking nonsense.

    Immigrants really drag the Western scores down.

    Another interesting example from the Nordics is Sweden. In PIAAC (the adult PISA) the Swedes aged 55-65 were second only to the Japanese. The youngest in the workforce on the other hand were much closer to the OECD average, and much behind the Finns of the same age. It might have something to do with the fact that almost 1/3 of Swedish residents of that age cohort have an immigrant background.

    The collapse in societal standards in Sweden will be something spectacular. In schools it already is, as PISA shows. Demographic dividends.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    @Stodge



    I could echo that story almost word for word. I too had grandparents who saw my parents' mortgage (at 3% fixed for 25 years) as "a terrible burden". Come the 1970's inflation made it laughable, and, aside from a croft on a wet hillside in the dim and distant, became the first property owners in our family as far as I am aware.

    Our own experience was the classic 2.25 x 2 mortgage in the late 80's (a stable mate of 3x plus one times), which we had for a few years and then saved hard, before we moved on and up a bit where we stayed for nearly two decades, again saving hard to pay off the mortgage, which we duly did years in advance. When we came to sell that house a couple of years ago we were amazed to be confronted by first time buyers in their late 20's who (one assumes) must've been relying on mum and dad bank, and multiples miles beyond anything we would've contemplated looking to buy our house. It would seem the generation below us is willing/able via low rates/forced, to have debt out of our ken.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Fortunately there are no queues at the Trumpton Hilton, thanks to all the Trumpton Poles!

    @Trumpton_UKIP: Just like @Nigel_Farage Mr Mayor is experiencing delays on the way to work today, can you guess why? #trumpton http://t.co/Hm82Ga6M9i
  • Mr. F, ha!

    I stopped watching Mock the Week (until the last series) when that arse Chris Addison became a regular. A story about Mugabe doing some nonsense or other led to Addison making a 'joke' about Thatcher blacking up. That's current events satire for you.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    BenM said:

    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
    They're all the same jokes written by the same person! How does one differ from any other?
    If you're part of the anti-UKIP brigade someone just needs to include "UKIP" in a sentence with reference to one of the manufactured outrages and you'll be on the floor rolling with laughter.
    It was the same in the 80s when you only had to mention "Thatcher" or "Tebbit" to get the bien-pensants laughing.

    The problem with flippancy, as C S Lewis observed, is the assumption that the joke has already been made.

    Yes I am sure the right on student types who had a bit of a snigger when Tebbit was almost killed in the Brighton bombings are the same ones who laughed when Farage nearly died in the plane crash
  • Interesting confrontation on the BBC in the comments to this article:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-30376446

    Disabled rights vs. mothers' rights
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Charles said:

    antifrank said:

    I'm shocked that UKIP haven't thought through the policy implications of immigration for transport more fully. If we had lanes on motorways reserved for the British-born, Nigel Farage's conference crisis would no doubt have been averted.

    It comes to something when even Tim Montgomerie starts criticising UKIP.
    He's critical of their position on international development today in the Times
    Yes - Thats my point. I was pretty caustic about Carswell. However he is also critical of their tax policy generally which is to hit the poor and benefit the rich. ''46 per cent of the gains from Ukip’s tax plan would go to the top fifth of earners. The poorest Britons would get £35 a year of crumbs from Mr Farage’s table. The richest would get a £1,143 windfall.''
    I am sure the voters of Doncaster Northand every other Northern Labour held constituency will be reminded of next year.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469

    antifrank said:
    Looking at the picture at the top of that Twitter feed, Farage was right. Every single car has a foreign number plate, and someone's stolen the central reservation barriers as well. Blooming immigrants, coming over here and ruining our roads for genuine woman-fearing idiotsUKIP supporters.
    Fortunately there are no queues at the Trumpton Hilton, thanks to all the Trumpton Poles!
    Since immigration has shot up since the 1990s, it would be interesting to see if there was a correlation between that and road congestion. I haven't been able to find a congestion chart yet, but here's one for road usage over the last few decades:
    http://cdn2.spectator.co.uk/wp-content/blogs.dir/11/files/2013/03/chart1.jpg

    Which indicates (although not comprehensively) it is not true. Perhaps figures for:
    1) Immigration growth,
    2) total UK population, and
    3) road delays due to congestion

    for the years between 1980 and 2010 would be informative. Sadly, they're not in my files ...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Indigo said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Accumulating stuff when all that does is make you vulnerable if you lose your job or limits your freedom to do something less well paid is a trap, a gilt-edged one, maybe - but a trap nonetheless.

    The same could be said about a wife/husband and family ;-)

    Depends on how you view your family, I s'pose. Or you could all enjoy the adventure together.....

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Which indicates (although not comprehensively) it is not true. Perhaps figures for:
    1) Immigration growth,
    2) total UK population, and
    3) road delays due to congestion

    for the years between 1980 and 2010 would be informative. Sadly, they're not in my files ...

    Even then, you would need to consider the amount spent on road building. Its always possibly that money was spent to reduce congestion that otherwise would not have been spent. We can't even use the number of driving licenses issues to non-locals since any EU driving license is acceptable. I suspect its an unprovable, and therefore the ideal subject of political comment as there is no risk of having it demonstrated that you are wrong
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited December 2014
    @FalseFlag

    You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. Yes, immigrants in Finland do do worse than Finnish natives. I never claimed otherwise. What I said was that immigrants in Finland did better than British natives. Thus the argument that it's immigrant scores making the difference is utterly debunked.

    Oh, and, in Canada, immigrants do just as well as the native born.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    FalseFlag said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
    How does everyone score above average? I’m not mathematically gifted, but ........
    The most common way for nearly all to be above average is for it to be a skewed distribution. Most people have 2 legs, some have 1, some zero. The average is therefore 1.9999 and the vast majority are above average on this metric.

    It really does legally mandate that every student be proficient, B grade, or above in maths and reading by 2014, no matter how daft the student.
    A B grade in the US system is a very low standard which everyone except those with extreme learning difficulties should be able to reach.
  • Lord Ashcroft poll

    Sleazy broken Labour on the slide

    Con 30 (nc) Lab 31 (-1) LD 8 (+1) UKIP 19 (+3) Greens 5 (-1) Others 7 (-2)
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    BenM said:

    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
    They're all the same jokes written by the same person! How does one differ from any other?
    If you're part of the anti-UKIP brigade someone just needs to include "UKIP" in a sentence with reference to one of the manufactured outrages and you'll be on the floor rolling with laughter.
    Never fear, after UKIP have swept to power, the Ministry of UKIP-Approved Humour will ensure that such deviance is squashed. Once each comedy club has been issued with Bernard Manning's jokebook and each tweet has been compulsorily put through a Jim Davidson filter, the danger of the Beloved Leader being subjected to mockery by the unworthy will rapidly dissipate.
    This is hugely ironic, as UKIP are the only party that actually believes in free speech. Just because we thing some speech is incorrect or stupid doesn't mean it should be banned. That's a viewpoint that's restricted to Labourites, Liberal Democrats and Conservatives. Even truly terrible stuff like racism or Abba music should be allowed.
    UKIP are the only party that believes in free speech?

    Har har har. As long as you sit in a corner with a napkin over your head.
    The Tories have maintained Labour's ban on certain types of speech and Theresa May wants to extend it to new areas.
  • Interesting confrontation on the BBC in the comments to this article:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-30376446

    Disabled rights vs. mothers' rights

    Is there any easy way of making a decision on this though? Frame the story in another way and you'd still get someone arguing against/for/because.
  • Lord Ashcroft poll

    Sleazy broken Labour on the slide

    Con 30 (nc) Lab 31 (-1) LD 8 (+1) UKIP 19 (+3) Greens 5 (-1) Others 7 (-2)

    Tories not benefitting from that slide, however, while UKIP rise.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Lord Ashcroft poll

    Sleazy broken Labour on the slide

    Con 30 (nc) Lab 31 (-1) LD 8 (+1) UKIP 19 (+3) Greens 5 (-1) Others 7 (-2)

    Think how well UKIP would be doing if it wasn't for the constant gaffes and the drag on support that is Nigel Farage?
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    @FalseFlag

    You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. Yes, immigrants in Finland do do worse than Finnish natives. I never claimed otherwise. What I said was that immigrants in Finland did better than British natives. Thus the argument that it's immigrant scores making the difference is utterly debunked.

    Oh, and, in Canada, immigrants do just as well as the native born.

    The UK scored around 500, including those of our immigrants who drag our score down, so well above immigrants in Finland in the mid and low 400s.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    edited December 2014

    antifrank said:
    Looking at the picture at the top of that Twitter feed, Farage was right. Every single car has a foreign number plate, and someone's stolen the central reservation barriers as well. Blooming immigrants, coming over here and ruining our roads for genuine woman-fearing idiotsUKIP supporters.
    Fortunately there are no queues at the Trumpton Hilton, thanks to all the Trumpton Poles!
    Since immigration has shot up since the 1990s, it would be interesting to see if there was a correlation between that and road congestion. I haven't been able to find a congestion chart yet, but here's one for road usage over the last few decades:
    http://cdn2.spectator.co.uk/wp-content/blogs.dir/11/files/2013/03/chart1.jpg

    Which indicates (although not comprehensively) it is not true. Perhaps figures for:
    1) Immigration growth,
    2) total UK population, and
    3) road delays due to congestion

    for the years between 1980 and 2010 would be informative. Sadly, they're not in my files ...
    UKIP are onto a winner here, because if they cannot blame immigrants they can always blame wimmin.
    ''The DVLA points out that the rise of the ‘female registered keeper’ has increased by more than two-thirds since 1994. This would tally with the RAC Foundation’s On the Move report published in December which highlighted the increasing number of women drivers and the growing mileage done by women, products of more females in the workplace and the trend for marrying later and having children at a later age.''

    I can feel and hear the growling resentment from kippers even now. 'Them wimmin drivers in my way instead of cleaning behind the fridge. '

    ''Since the recession of 2008-09 the annual growth in licensed vehicles has slowed but not stopped, increasing by an average of 0.5 per cent per year since 2008, compared with an average of 2.4 per cent a year between 1996 and 2007.''
    http://racfoundation.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/number-of-vehicles-in-uk-hits-new-high/

    There could be many reasons for congestion, not simply available car numbers.
  • New Thread
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    Sean_F said:


    It was the same in the 80s when you only had to mention "Thatcher" or "Tebbit" to get the bien-pensants laughing.

    The problem with flippancy, as C S Lewis observed, is the assumption that the joke has already been made.

    I think there's a difference between mocking/satirising those in power and with the power and those, like Farage and UKIP, who have no power at all beyond the power of influence.

    All Governments and figures in Government must be able to accept the place of satire and mockery - it's a safety valve. As long as it's within the law, it's perfectly acceptable.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    Calum

    "I’ve read a lot of speculation on this site that there will be significant anti-SNP tactical voting in May 2015. Living in Central Scotland, I am unaware of any Conservative friends who would be prepared to effectively vote for Ed Milliband, if anything they would be more likely to vote SNP to reduce Labour’s chances of getting a majority."

    It's possible that you're right. The one force in Scottish politics that can trump all others is being anti Tory as we again heard yesterday from Salmond himself. Indeed the reason Labour are suffering now is because through no fault of their own they were forced to be on the same side as the Tories in the referendum.

    Though Jim Murphy is as close to a Tory as it's possible to be I think he's politically astute enough to make the Tories rather than the SNP enemy no 1.

    As an aside it's interesting how many Scottish Tories post on here and how poor their analysis has proved to be. Perhaps it's just the logical outcome of following a lost cause?
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    BenM said:

    antifrank said:
    That's one of the funnier ones! Excellent.
    They're all the same jokes written by the same person! How does one differ from any other?
    If you're part of the anti-UKIP brigade someone just needs to include "UKIP" in a sentence with reference to one of the manufactured outrages and you'll be on the floor rolling with laughter.
    It was the same in the 80s when you only had to mention "Thatcher" or "Tebbit" to get the bien-pensants laughing.

    The problem with flippancy, as C S Lewis observed, is the assumption that the joke has already been made.

    Yes I am sure the right on student types who had a bit of a snigger when Tebbit was almost killed in the Brighton bombings are the same ones who laughed when Farage nearly died in the plane crash
    I doubt anybody laughed at either.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    @OldKingCole

    If you look at the education systems in places like Poland and Finland, which are high on PISA rankings, one of the things they do is to have very tough minimum expectations for kids. There's none of this "oh well these kids are from a council estate/immigrant family/troubled family, therefore they can't do maths". One of the ways they do this is that teachers can make it clear to the students early that they get Fs when they deserve Fs. Kids need to understand they can't sail through school.

    Neither have immigrants and both score well on IQ tests, the soft bigotry of low expectations nonsense led to the ridiculous no child left behind act in the US that meant every child must score above average.
    How does everyone score above average? I’m not mathematically gifted, but ........
    The most common way for nearly all to be above average is for it to be a skewed distribution. Most people have 2 legs, some have 1, some zero. The average is therefore 1.9999 and the vast majority are above average on this metric.

    It really does legally mandate that every student be proficient, B grade, or above in maths and reading by 2014, no matter how daft the student.
    A B grade in the US system is a very low standard which everyone except those with extreme learning difficulties should be able to reach.
    The NAEP 2005 reading scores distributed thus for 8th graders.

    A(3%)
    B(28%)
    C(42%)
    D & F(28%)
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989

    Lord Ashcroft poll

    Sleazy broken Labour on the slide

    Con 30 (nc) Lab 31 (-1) LD 8 (+1) UKIP 19 (+3) Greens 5 (-1) Others 7 (-2)

    Once again, we see the huge difference in the duopoly numbers - 61 here, 69 on Populus but a very good poll for UKIP, a poor poll for Labour and dreadful for both the Coalition parties with no sign of an AS bounce of any sort.

    Perhaps it is still about the pre-election skirmishes, perhaps people have already decided and nothing will change. It's a 4% swing from Conservative to Labour nationally but I suspect those numbers would see Labour very close to an overall majority.

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Cable replies to a petition (which I encourage others to sign) calling for the upholding of VAT exemption on digital products:
    http://www.change.org/p/vince-cable-mp-uphold-the-vat-exemption-threshold-for-businesses-supplying-digital-products/responses/25596

    The claim it's been well-communicated is a crock of shit. I'm sure larger firms were notified and engaged with, but the first I (and many others) heard of it was just over a month ago. He also doesn't address the central problem, which is that the law is ****ing stupid.


    The new EU VAT arrangements for UK microbusinesses who sell products over the internet to EU countries is both horrendous EU bureaucracy and damaging for UK exports.

    Whilst there is a tax logic to the tax law, it should have been assessed back in 2008 for the cost to microbusinesses and the impact on UK exports - a black mark for Labour.

    The fact that the government has not informed the bulk of businesses affected on Jan 1st, is a black mark for the coalition parties.

    It's a gift to UKIP. Wait for the fireworks.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/businessclub/11268706/Victory-for-UK-micro-firms-as-HMRC-tweaks-EU-VAT-MOSS-rule.html

    Businesses can use the 'Mini One Stop Shop' (so they do not have to register in every EU country) but they do not have to charge VAT to UK customers.

    Others will I am sure know better than me but it looks as if there is currently a massive tax black hole in terms of VAT e-sales. This may change that.
    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/dec/03/vat-loophole-digital-sales-olympics
    Currently sorting this out for a couple of small start-ups I have elsewhere in Europe and it is a total pain in the arse, and going to cost me, both in setup costs and ongoing costs of paying for a IT solution.

    The principle is fine, why should you sell across Europe and not pay the VAT at the rates in the country where you are selling to, but now we have gone from 10,000's Euro threshold before I need to worry in most countries to 0. So literally if I sell something for 99c, I am liable to make sure all my VAT etc is in order, which is a total nightmare for start-ups where income is going to be highly uncertain.
    You know better than me. But you can use the MOSS which will allocate the VAT. I further understand you do not need to raise a full VAT invoice, just an invoice. I fully sympathise with businesses everywhere. But I rather like the idea of people in the UK who buy something from Amazon paying UK tax rather than Luxemburg tax.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Indigo said:

    Which indicates (although not comprehensively) it is not true. Perhaps figures for:
    1) Immigration growth,
    2) total UK population, and
    3) road delays due to congestion

    for the years between 1980 and 2010 would be informative. Sadly, they're not in my files ...

    Even then, you would need to consider the amount spent on road building. Its always possibly that money was spent to reduce congestion that otherwise would not have been spent. We can't even use the number of driving licenses issues to non-locals since any EU driving license is acceptable. I suspect its an unprovable, and therefore the ideal subject of political comment as there is no risk of having it demonstrated that you are wrong
    That's a good point, but I think it'd have a negligible effect, especially if the numbers of immigrants have exploded in the way claimed. New Labour's record on road building was abysmal.

    On a related point, you cannot just go on the amount spent on schemes: as I have noted many timed previously, infrastructure projects have got massively more expensive per mile over the last few decades.

    And I do think the figures can prove it, one way or the other, especially as Farage was concerned on a specific journey along the M4 corridor.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:


    It was the same in the 80s when you only had to mention "Thatcher" or "Tebbit" to get the bien-pensants laughing.

    The problem with flippancy, as C S Lewis observed, is the assumption that the joke has already been made.

    I think there's a difference between mocking/satirising those in power and with the power and those, like Farage and UKIP, who have no power at all beyond the power of influence.

    All Governments and figures in Government must be able to accept the place of satire and mockery - it's a safety valve. As long as it's within the law, it's perfectly acceptable.

    I do not see why you should exclude Farage UKIP and say thye Greens from mockery satire or scrutiny. They are after power and well into the gravy train.
    UKIP have several MEPs 2 MPs and they gain huge salaries and expenses oops sorry allowances. When Farage can with no shame defend the dupicitous spending of his 'allowance' we see in true Animal Farm tradition that pig has turned to man.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Bobajob_ said:

    CycleFree - a hard lesson that is also quite wrong, as debt finance is the juice of a modern economy.

    A mortgage is a loan. Do you oppose mortgages?

    Thought experiment for you:

    How much would houses cost if there was and never had been any such thing as mortgages?

    (Or more realistically, if they had not been allowed to ever be more than 3x one income?)

    I strongly suspect Joe average would be a lot richer, and the banks a lot poorer. But it's too late now. Debt is king, as you imply. Although you seem rather more relaxed about it than most.
    That's an interesting one, and I think that it will not have made much difference - the banks would just have found other ways of marking their money in he absence of mortgages. Perhaps buying houses and renting them back to the owners in a reverse equity-release scheme (ISTR there are such things now). The longer you stay, the more of the house you own.

    Or, because people would need bigger deposits, they would reduce the interest on large deposits.

    Banks will want to make money out of their punters. It's what they do, for all the cuddly adverts (including the Co-op bank's hideous one atm) that try to pretend otherwise.

    Is the problem that mortgages are just too easy for banks to make money out of, and therefore they did/do not put the required effort in?
    Equity release is a really terrible business to be in. My father pioneered it in the 1980s*, but there he was providing a service for people who couldn't afford to live in their family home but wanted to continue to do so with the confidence that their sale (usually house + contents) would not become public until after their death. But he was dealing with sophisticated people with well-paid lawyers and accountants. And they were called "reversionary sales" rather than "equity release" - because equity release is totally the wrong reason to do a deal like this.

    These days it has been commoditised and is aggressively marketed to people for whom it often isn't suitable. And the PR aspects can be absolutely terrible (typically Daily Mail story). So we don't do it any more - the returns have cratered and the costs are higher

    * for avoidance of doubt, this was done independently of the main family company
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JPJ2 said:

    Any minute now Mr Smithson will be telling us that Salmond may not win Gordon at GE2015 and that the Lib Dems have a fighting chance there.because of the "No" vote.

    Oh, wait a minute, ludicrously he has already made that laughable case which will be proved completely wrong :-)

    LOL, we had the incumbent LD duffer on this morning saying Salmond had done nothing in last 7 years , must have forgot to lift his head from the trough over the last 32 years he has been sitting on his duff.
    You could not embarrass these half witted useless Lib Dems.
    Talking of troughers, has anyone told Alex Salmond he can no longer claim the £400 a month food allowance.

    Alex Salmond claimed £800 for food on MPs' expenses during recess

    Alex Salmond, Scotland's First Minister, claimed £400 per month for food when the Commons was not even sitting.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5299733/Alex-Salmond-claimed-800-for-food-on-MPs-expenses-during-recess.html
    Any of the Westminster troughers give their pensions to charity
    Most of them don't have five tax payer funded pensions like the trougher Alex Salmond.
    Making a real tit of yourself again I see. So being a politician he gets many more and bigger pensions than other similar MP's / MSP's. What a stupid stupid little twerp you are. Pathetic nasty Tory.
    He has five tax payer funded pensions.

    I know your brain can't process facts, so posting the facts is making a tit of oneself.

    Malcolm, a bit of advice.

    Stick with insults, it confirms what we all know about, you're poor little brain when confronted with the facts it spews insults.

    Turns out your insults are nearly as funny as your predictions on Scotland.

    No UKIP MEPs in Scotland and Yes will win.
    Unless you are just personally envious, what is wrong with 5 pensions if he has earned them as part of his employment renumeration. Is the new nasty party policy to stop people they don't like having pensions.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    fitalass said:

    NickP, that is simple not true, most folk living in housing estates in cities tend to be able to source a large supermarket within walking distance these days.

    Not in my experience, sorry. Perhaps Scotland is different?

    Cyclefree's idea of a charity to train people in food growing seems worth a try, and I don't think there is one. I admit to cultural bias - I don't like any kind of gardening after trying it for a few years (too messy) and I don't much like vegetables. But that's not a basis for policy...

    Nick, Scotland is not different , it is just that the Tories live on a different planet. They think paying £6 or more for the bus that goes once or twice a day to nearest town with a supermarket is normal for peasants. Fitalaff obviously does not live or have ever lived in these schemes or ever had to live on benefits.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    So now Smithson has started reporting changes in Scottish sub-samples. He once banned me for doing a lesser error.

    Also has his pet poodle TSE out whinging about Alex Salmond having temerity to have secured a pension as part of his employment. That from a lawyer as well.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JPJ2 said:

    Any minute now Mr Smithson will be telling us that Salmond may not win Gordon at GE2015 and that the Lib Dems have a fighting chance there.because of the "No" vote.

    Oh, wait a minute, ludicrously he has already made that laughable case which will be proved completely wrong :-)

    LOL, we had the incumbent LD duffer on this morning saying Salmond had done nothing in last 7 years , must have forgot to lift his head from the trough over the last 32 years he has been sitting on his duff.
    You could not embarrass these half witted useless Lib Dems.
    Talking of troughers, has anyone told Alex Salmond he can no longer claim the £400 a month food allowance.

    Alex Salmond claimed £800 for food on MPs' expenses during recess

    Alex Salmond, Scotland's First Minister, claimed £400 per month for food when the Commons was not even sitting.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5299733/Alex-Salmond-claimed-800-for-food-on-MPs-expenses-during-recess.html
    Any of the Westminster troughers give their pensions to charity
    Most of them don't have five tax payer funded pensions like the trougher Alex Salmond.
    Making a real tit of yourself again I see. So being a politician he gets many more and bigger pensions than other similar MP's / MSP's. What a stupid stupid little twerp you are. Pathetic nasty Tory.
    He has five tax payer funded pensions.

    I know your brain can't process facts, so posting the facts is making a tit of oneself.

    Malcolm, a bit of advice.

    Stick with insults, it confirms what we all know about, you're poor little brain when confronted with the facts it spews insults.

    Turns out your insults are nearly as funny as your predictions on Scotland.

    No UKIP MEPs in Scotland and Yes will win.
    I may get some things wrong but I pay out on bets and never resort to pathetic lies like some people though.
  • I cant understand how adding together unreliable figures would make anything more than an even more unreliable figure!
This discussion has been closed.