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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Dave should remember this polling before he decides to with

SystemSystem Posts: 12,137
edited June 2013 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Dave should remember this polling before he decides to withdraw from the debates

Amid increasing signs that the Conservatives would pull the plug on televised leaders’ debates if Mr Farage was included, the UKIP leader said he would be prepared to challenge efforts to stop him taking part in the courts.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Dave on the run !
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "There are plans afoot for a leaders’ debate, including Farage ahead of the European elections next year"

    I hope for everyone's sake that turns out to be nonsense, or just UKIP wishful thinking. If there are leaders' debates including Farage but excluding Salmond just THREE MONTHS before the independence referendum, that would be absolutely bloody outrageous.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    He would be a coward if he didn't take part. If you don't feel your arguments can stand up against your opponents when put right next to each other, you don't deserve to get elected.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,837
    Afternoon all :)

    My perspective runs completely counter to the article. I think that Ed Miliband would be disadvantaged by the longer set-piece interview as he would be forced to explain in depth Labour policies which would lay them open to the kind of scruting they might not survive.

    Cameron would have to defend in depth the record of the Government and it wouldn't be easy but I suspect he would be in a better position.

    The other possibility is that given the large amount of media exposure he already gets, many voters are tired of David Cameron and aren't really going to listen to anything he says while Ed MIliband has the advantage (as did Clegg in 2010) of being relatively "new" to people so he might derive some benefit from that.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    Thankyou, Fluffy, for the badge of honour.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    "There are plans afoot for a leaders’ debate, including Farage ahead of the European elections next year"

    I hope for everyone's sake that turns out to be nonsense, or just UKIP wishful thinking. If there are leaders' debates including Farage but excluding Salmond just THREE MONTHS before the independence referendum, that would be absolutely bloody outrageous.

    Salmond should be displayed on local Scottish TV , there's no reason for inflicting him on a UK wide audience.

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Salmond should be displayed on local Scottish TV , there's no reason for inflicting him on a UK wide audience."

    Fine, just so long as a debate reflecting the English political system isn't inflicted on a Scottish audience.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    *sighs*

    Worried that political discourse is too well-informed and intelligent? Tired of the media not having quite enough power when it comes to biased reporting, manipulated presentation and helpfully edited news clips?

    Don't worry, debates are here to help!

    I might sound like a broken record on this, but I'm still bloody right.

    Yes, Cameron would look a coward. No, there is no serious case for Salmond or Farage or whichever communist is presently leading the Greens to have a seat at such a debate.

    The leaders debates will be as informative and edifying as Byzantine emperors dancing for the titillation of the Greens and Blues.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "or whichever communist is presently leading the Greens"

    What planet do you live on, MD? Do you seriously think that Natalie Bennett is a communist? As we know from our own experience, there are far more Osborne fans in the Green Party than there are communists.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    Interesting F1 news.

    Mercedes are under investigation for a potentially naughty test with Pirelli. Red Bull and Ferrari complained, but now Ferrari are subject to a similar investigation:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22741087
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    "or whichever communist is presently leading the Greens"

    What planet do you live on, MD? Do you seriously think that Natalie Bennett is a communist? As we know from our own experience, there are far more Osborne fans in the Green Party than there are communists.

    Say no more. Our Neil is a communist ? I thought he was a PBTory !
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,509
    Since the Tories seem to believe fear of Ed Miliband is their secret weapon, it would be odd not to accept a leaders' debate where the focius is on the leaders. But it's also odd that they're briefing that they're worried that Ed will come over well. An indiscreet aide? A double bluff?

    Anyway, if they intend not to do the debates, they need to say so now and take the hit in 2013, not 2015. Two years of semi-publicly agonising over it will do them no good whatever.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    surbiton said:

    Our Neil is a communist ? I thought he was a PBTory !

    The two are not mutually exclusive.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,595

    Since the Tories seem to believe fear of Ed Miliband is their secret weapon, it would be odd not to accept a leaders' debate where the focius is on the leaders. But it's also odd that they're briefing that they're worried that Ed will come over well. An indiscreet aide? A double bluff?

    Anyway, if they intend not to do the debates, they need to say so now and take the hit in 2013, not 2015. Two years of semi-publicly agonising over it will do them no good whatever.

    If they do it now they will take hit now AND in 2015. It will be a theme in the campaign. "What are you afraid of MR Cameron"
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630
    What's that song in Monty Python and the Holy Grail about "brave" Sir Robin?

    Dave on debates before the 2010 election would be interesting to revisit.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "The two are not mutually exclusive."

    Does the term 'mutually exclusive' have any meaning in the Tory wing of the Green party?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    "The two are not mutually exclusive."

    Does the term 'mutually exclusive' have any meaning in the Tory wing of the Green party?

    He didn't say he was a Tory. He said he was a "PBTory", which means anyone that ever disagrees with a nasty close-minded cabal of centre-left posters.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,540
    @SeanT

    I liked your article in the Times travel section today about the Rota Vincentina in Portugal.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630
    On another note, we're spending the weekend in Lyme Regis. Stunning, spectacular, glorious - 40 shades of green, 50 shades of blue; buttercups thick in the fields; butterflies jagging above them; cotton wool clouds melting into the horizon; a sea breeze. England. Wonderful.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited June 2013
    "He said he was a "PBTory", which means anyone that ever disagrees with a nasty close-minded cabal of centre-left posters."

    Your favourite fiction is that the term 'PB Tory' is broader than 'Tory'. In fact, it's much, much narrower.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Jonathan said:

    Since the Tories seem to believe fear of Ed Miliband is their secret weapon, it would be odd not to accept a leaders' debate where the focius is on the leaders. But it's also odd that they're briefing that they're worried that Ed will come over well. An indiscreet aide? A double bluff?

    Anyway, if they intend not to do the debates, they need to say so now and take the hit in 2013, not 2015. Two years of semi-publicly agonising over it will do them no good whatever.

    If they do it now they will take hit now AND in 2015. It will be a theme in the campaign. "What are you afraid of MR Cameron"
    Yes , refusing a TV leadership debate did for Blair ;

    " In 1997, incumbent UK Prime Minister John Major called Opposition Leader Tony Blair a chicken for not debating. To press the point the Conservative Party employed someone to wear a chicken suit and follow Mr Blair. Mr Blair was leading in the polls and did not want to risk that lead.

    In 2001, Prime Minister Blair again refused to debate, and was labelled a chicken by Opposition Leader William Hague. Again, Mr Blair did not want to risk his standing. "

    In 2005..........


  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Anyway, if they intend not to do the debates, they need to say so now and take the hit in 2013, not 2015. Two years of semi-publicly agonising over it will do them no good whatever.

    Nah....much better to do 'more in sorrow than in anger' at the last minute in 2015 that our 'reasonable requests' (unspecified) were not acceptable to some other parties...meanwhile the PM has the important job of running the country to attend to, and while the other candidates are in a TV studio he will be meeting world leaders in (fill in obliging capital...)
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    The Green Party manifesto committed the party to a series of policy much closer to communism than the other parties, most notably an open opposition to free trade, a large programme of state intervention into business and other things, and a huge restructuring of our economy.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Can I ask for some info re The Sopranos - is it like a very long version of Goodfellas...where Joe Pesci doesn't die for several seasons or something else?

    I keep hearing its superb - but the idea of watching wise-guys machoing each other for hours on end may be too much even for me... and I watched Goodfellas twice back to back at the movies...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    I wonder if there's an alternative strategy.

    Leaving aside the lack of reasonable argument for UKIP having a seat, let's say all others (parties and media) want one, and Cameron doesn't. Can't he just say "Yes, but only if the Greens have a seat. And the SNP. And Plaid." It'd dilute the impact of Farage.

    There's also the very real issue for Labour that UKIP could be a problem for them in northern England. Just as the middle class isn't the property of the Conservatives, neither is the working class the property of Labour.

    UKIP's not an echo of the Conservative Party of the Past, but a challenge to the whole Establishment.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @Jonathan @NickPalmer

    Seeing that they've now said their fear is that Ed Miliband will come over well, it will be doubly damaging to them if they do rule themselves out. Not only will it make Cameron look weak, but it will also now make Miliband look capable, as that will be the reasoning the media reports. If they were a talented group of strategists, I would say this means that they are therefore definitely going to commit to the debates. However, they have proved to be this incompetent before, so they could still do it.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "The Green Party manifesto committed the party to a series of policy much closer to communism than the other parties, most notably an open opposition to free trade..."

    Which is scarcely the sole preserve of the far left.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I hadn't heard of this WW1 battle before - its sounds absolutely horrific - RIP the soldiers who were lost and to those who've just been found

    "Seven of the soldiers have already been identified through the military identification tags they wore. According to official records, these soldiers were killed in combat between March 28 and April 5.

    Investigations have already begun to find the descendants of the men.

    In cases where the family does not want to recover the body, the soldiers will be buried in the Fleury military cemetery under a white cross.

    Where no identification can be made the bones will be kept at the the Douaumont ossuary, a memorial containing the remains of soldiers who died on the battlefield during the Battle of Verdun

    During the 300 days of the Battle of Verdun, which lasted from February 21 1916 to December 19 1916, approximately 230,000 men died on a battlefield covering less than eight square miles.

    Most were killed by artillery.

    The battle became known in German as Die Hölle von Verdun, or in French as L'Enfer de Verdun. Both names translate to English as 'the Hell of Verdun'.

    It was the longest and one of the most devastating battles in the First World War and the history of warfare.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334354/Archaeologists-unearth-bones-20-French-First-World-War-dead-chance-discovery-hikers-forest-Verdun.html#ixzz2UyxILWay

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Seems like Dave wants the debates to take place as long as he only has to face Ed and Nick.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Jonathan said:

    Since the Tories seem to believe fear of Ed Miliband is their secret weapon, it would be odd not to accept a leaders' debate where the focius is on the leaders. But it's also odd that they're briefing that they're worried that Ed will come over well. An indiscreet aide? A double bluff?

    Anyway, if they intend not to do the debates, they need to say so now and take the hit in 2013, not 2015. Two years of semi-publicly agonising over it will do them no good whatever.

    If they do it now they will take hit now AND in 2015. It will be a theme in the campaign. "What are you afraid of MR Cameron"
    Yes , refusing a TV leadership debate did for Blair ;

    " In 1997, incumbent UK Prime Minister John Major called Opposition Leader Tony Blair a chicken for not debating. To press the point the Conservative Party employed someone to wear a chicken suit and follow Mr Blair. Mr Blair was leading in the polls and did not want to risk that lead.

    In 2001, Prime Minister Blair again refused to debate, and was labelled a chicken by Opposition Leader William Hague. Again, Mr Blair did not want to risk his standing. "

    In 2005..........


    Understatement incoming:

    Cameron does not have the political capital Blair has.
    Whereas Teflon Tony managed to avoid any bad stuff sticking for years on end, Cast Iron Cameron is a magnet for trouble.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,595

    Jonathan said:

    Since the Tories seem to believe fear of Ed Miliband is their secret weapon, it would be odd not to accept a leaders' debate where the focius is on the leaders. But it's also odd that they're briefing that they're worried that Ed will come over well. An indiscreet aide? A double bluff?

    Anyway, if they intend not to do the debates, they need to say so now and take the hit in 2013, not 2015. Two years of semi-publicly agonising over it will do them no good whatever.

    If they do it now they will take hit now AND in 2015. It will be a theme in the campaign. "What are you afraid of MR Cameron"
    Yes , refusing a TV leadership debate did for Blair ;

    " In 1997, incumbent UK Prime Minister John Major called Opposition Leader Tony Blair a chicken for not debating. To press the point the Conservative Party employed someone to wear a chicken suit and follow Mr Blair. Mr Blair was leading in the polls and did not want to risk that lead.

    In 2001, Prime Minister Blair again refused to debate, and was labelled a chicken by Opposition Leader William Hague. Again, Mr Blair did not want to risk his standing. "

    In 2005..........


    Blair never called for one, nor did one. There had also never been a debate. It's different now we've had one. Cameron used to care deeply about it. To run scared from something you previously went out of your way to promote is not a great theme for an election campaign.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    Just looking at the French Open matches. Interestingly Djokovic's opponent beat him on clay less than a month ago. Very tight match, but I'm not too tempted by the 10 price. A longer match will, I imagine, favour the very fit Serb.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    "The Green Party manifesto committed the party to a series of policy much closer to communism than the other parties, most notably an open opposition to free trade..."

    Which is scarcely the sole preserve of the far left.

    Are you speaking of the SNP? Really James, stand in the corner.

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Are you speaking of the SNP? Really James, stand in the corner."

    Hardly. I'm talking about the far right, among others. And the Liberals of the 19th Century referred to the Tories as "the stupid party" - for opposing free trade.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    I saw a request for cat videos on FPT - here you go :^ ) 41,710,473 views so far.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf_IIbT8HGk
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited June 2013
    "I saw a request for cat videos on FPT"

    I believe what you actually saw was me pointing out that the one thing more pointless than trolling was posting cat videos on a political betting forum.

    I'm fond of cats myself, and I find it mildly disturbing that I share that love with PB's Queen of Pointlessness.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Enough of the bloody cats.

    On topic: if Cameron's team pull the plug on this now his people have briefed that "Save" Ed "Is Crap" Miliband is actually pretty endearing on the telly, they are even more dim than even I dared imagine.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    Betting Post

    Backed Radwanska to beat Ivanovic 2-0 at 2.9. She's won the last 5 encounters between the pair 2-0.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    @JamesKelly I don't believe any other party currently in the House of Commons from Great Britain that is opposed to free trade, or indeed UKIP; it may not be the preserve of the far-left it is a feature.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "I don't believe any other party currently in the House of Commons from Great Britain that is opposed to free trade, or indeed UKIP; it may not be the preserve of the far-left it is a feature."

    The Greens aren't far left. And not just because they have a PB Tory in one of their branches.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Plato said:

    I hadn't heard of this WW1 battle before - its sounds absolutely horrific - RIP the soldiers who were lost and to those who've just been found

    "Seven of the soldiers have already been identified through the military identification tags they wore. According to official records, these soldiers were killed in combat between March 28 and April 5.

    Investigations have already begun to find the descendants of the men.

    In cases where the family does not want to recover the body, the soldiers will be buried in the Fleury military cemetery under a white cross.

    Where no identification can be made the bones will be kept at the the Douaumont ossuary, a memorial containing the remains of soldiers who died on the battlefield during the Battle of Verdun

    During the 300 days of the Battle of Verdun, which lasted from February 21 1916 to December 19 1916, approximately 230,000 men died on a battlefield covering less than eight square miles.

    Most were killed by artillery.

    The battle became known in German as Die Hölle von Verdun, or in French as L'Enfer de Verdun. Both names translate to English as 'the Hell of Verdun'.

    It was the longest and one of the most devastating battles in the First World War and the history of warfare.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334354/Archaeologists-unearth-bones-20-French-First-World-War-dead-chance-discovery-hikers-forest-Verdun.html#ixzz2UyxILWay

    The battle of the Somme was in large part designed to take the pressure off the French army in Verdun by forcing the Germans to reinforce the more northern areas. French losses in the first war were tremendous, and unlike the British forces thr troops were rarely rotated to rear areas to regroup and recover. At that time the French were holding much more of the front line than the British.

    There were some tremendous battles elsewhere in europe such as Tannenberg in Prussia, Caporetto in Italy, or the Brusilov offensive in what is now the Ukraine. This long forgotton battle was a rare Russian success and destroyed Austria-Hungary as a fighting force, as well as inventing the stormtroop tactics that evolved into Blitzkreig. All of these battles had a scale of losses that were equal to the Somme or Paschendaele, but our first war memories are mostly of the Western Front.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    Mr. Foxinsoxuk, that's an interesting post. It's strange how certain battles stick in the mind but others don't (Cannae compared to Arausio, for example).

    The numbers in Verdun and elsewhere are staggering. The only thing they remind me of are the naval battles in the First Punic War. About 290,000 men took part in the Battle of Ecnomus.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Observer has a poll on Syria tomorrow:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/01/syria-hague-arms-intervention-military?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    "Less than a quarter of the public believes that the government should arm the rebels in Syria, according to a poll in the wake of Britain's support for the lifting of an arms embargo.

    Just 24% back giving weapons or military supplies to the forces fighting President Bashar al-Assad's army, although more than half (58%) would support offering humanitarian aid.

    Last week the European Union lifted its arms embargo on Syria, with foreign secretary William Hague claiming that the policy was denying rebels the right to defend themselves when they were "having every weapon that's ever been devised dropped on them".

    A number of European states, led by Austria, continued to oppose lifting the embargo, but Britain insisted that it should be allowed to expire on Friday. Hague, in a concerted move with France designed to force Assad to the negotiating table, said that the decision gave the UK and others flexibility in responding to a worsening situation.

    But an Opinium/Observer poll published today suggests that public opinion would not be behind any military intervention, no matter how hands-off.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    I hadn't heard of this WW1 battle before - its sounds absolutely horrific - RIP the soldiers who were lost and to those who've just been found

    "Seven of the soldiers have already been identified through the military identification tags they wore. According to official records, these soldiers were killed in combat between March 28 and April 5.

    Investigations have already begun to find the descendants of the men.

    In cases where the family does not want to recover the body, the soldiers will be buried in the Fleury military cemetery under a white cross.

    Where no identification can be made the bones will be kept at the the Douaumont ossuary, a memorial containing the remains of soldiers who died on the battlefield during the Battle of Verdun

    During the 300 days of the Battle of Verdun, which lasted from February 21 1916 to December 19 1916, approximately 230,000 men died on a battlefield covering less than eight square miles.

    Most were killed by artillery.

    The battle became known in German as Die Hölle von Verdun, or in French as L'Enfer de Verdun. Both names translate to English as 'the Hell of Verdun'.

    It was the longest and one of the most devastating battles in the First World War and the history of warfare.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334354/Archaeologists-unearth-bones-20-French-First-World-War-dead-chance-discovery-hikers-forest-Verdun.html#ixzz2UyxILWay

    The battle of the Somme was in large part designed to take the pressure off the French army in Verdun by forcing the Germans to reinforce the more northern areas. French losses in the first war were tremendous, and unlike the British forces thr troops were rarely rotated to rear areas to regroup and recover. At that time the French were holding much more of the front line than the British.

    There were some tremendous battles elsewhere in europe such as Tannenberg in Prussia, Caporetto in Italy, or the Brusilov offensive in what is now the Ukraine. This long forgotton battle was a rare Russian success and destroyed Austria-Hungary as a fighting force, as well as inventing the stormtroop tactics that evolved into Blitzkreig. All of these battles had a scale of losses that were equal to the Somme or Paschendaele, but our first war memories are mostly of the Western Front.
    Many thanx for that - it was WW1/Crimea stories that really moved me as a kid - the slaughter/conditions/horror/treatment of deserters and the shell-shocked.

    I find myself really uncomfortable with the idea of drones bombing third-world places like some one-sided video game form of warfare. I don't know the answer, but this feels wrong to me on a visceral level. I've no ethical issue with waging wars - but to have it so one-sided?
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    The Green Party committed to a Minimum Wage of £8.10 an hour, and a maximum wage "in any organisation is no more than ten times the minimum wage in that organisation". They would also "require 40% of board members of larger companies to be female within five years." Their manifesto also focussed on measures to boost equality on a sizable scale.

    They also committed themselves to increase the size of the state and tax revenues accordingly, when for the three main parties it was about the scale of cuts.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    "I don't believe any other party currently in the House of Commons from Great Britain that is opposed to free trade, or indeed UKIP; it may not be the preserve of the far-left it is a feature."

    The Greens aren't far left. And not just because they have a PB Tory in one of their branches.

    How would you define the border between left and far left?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "The Green Party committed to a Minimum Wage of £8.10 an hour, and a maximum wage "in any organisation is no more than ten times the minimum wage in that organisation". They would also "require 40% of board members of larger companies to be female within five years." Their manifesto also focussed on measures to boost equality on a sizable scale."

    Sounds pretty good. I'd be a bit concerned about the gender equality laws unless there was also a requirement for 40% of board members to be male. But on the whole that's a programme I'd be comfortable voting for if I lived in England.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    Miss Plato, I'd rather have drones than manned aircraft doing it, provided capability is the same. The less risk to British lives the better. Autonomous machines/robots are another kettle of fish entirely.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Plato said:

    Can I ask for some info re The Sopranos - is it like a very long version of Goodfellas...where Joe Pesci doesn't die for several seasons or something else?

    I keep hearing its superb - but the idea of watching wise-guys machoing each other for hours on end may be too much even for me... and I watched Goodfellas twice back to back at the movies...

    I thought the Sopranos was much better than Goodfellas, partially because I don't like Ray Liotta very much. Sopranos delves into family lives and psychology of the mobsters a lot more, particularly Tony, who goes to therapy sessions.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Grandiose said:

    The Green Party committed to a Minimum Wage of £8.10 an hour, and a maximum wage "in any organisation is no more than ten times the minimum wage in that organisation". They would also "require 40% of board members of larger companies to be female within five years." Their manifesto also focussed on measures to boost equality on a sizable scale.

    They also committed themselves to increase the size of the state and tax revenues accordingly, when for the three main parties it was about the scale of cuts.

    TBH, the Greenies have already had their chance re Global Warming - they've added substantially to energy costs, blighted the countryside with wind turbines that aren't up to the job and have put the Western world at a substantial disadvantage. Oh, but its made Greenies like Al Gore incredibly rich.

    That the climate isn't playing ball, and their *scientists* are losing credibility post Climategate just proves that even telling a Really Big Lie doesn't work for very long in the face of the reality.

    And on that note - I'm off to enjoy the evening sun, dickies tweeting noisily, a pizza and Supernatural S3.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "TBH, the Greenies have already had their chance re Global Warming"

    Dear God. Don't wanna be vendetta-ish, but IIRC Chaucer will be turning in his grave re language butchery.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Socrates said:

    Plato said:

    Can I ask for some info re The Sopranos - is it like a very long version of Goodfellas...where Joe Pesci doesn't die for several seasons or something else?

    I keep hearing its superb - but the idea of watching wise-guys machoing each other for hours on end may be too much even for me... and I watched Goodfellas twice back to back at the movies...

    I thought the Sopranos was much better than Goodfellas, partially because I don't like Ray Liotta very much. Sopranos delves into family lives and psychology of the mobsters a lot more, particularly Tony, who goes to therapy sessions.
    Will give it a shot - its when Mafioso stuff goes all psycho a la Pesci that I find it tiresome/predictable - its like watching someone with nitroglycerine threatening people in a bus queue [this holds true for gangbanger films re disrespect].

    I really liked Liotta so clearly its horses for courses, but he's very long in the tooth nowadays.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    I hadn't heard of this WW1 battle before - its sounds absolutely horrific - RIP the soldiers who were lost and to those who've just been found

    "Seven of the soldiers have already been identified through the military identification tags they wore. According to official records, these soldiers were killed in combat between March 28 and April 5.

    Investigations have already begun to find the descendants of the men.

    In cases where the family does not want to recover the body, the soldiers will be buried in the Fleury military cemetery under a white cross.

    Where no identification can be made the bones will be kept at the the Douaumont ossuary, a memorial containing the remains of soldiers who died on the battlefield during the Battle of Verdun

    During the 300 days of the Battle of Verdun, which lasted from February 21 1916 to December 19 1916, approximately 230,000 men died on a battlefield covering less than eight square miles.

    Most were killed by artillery.

    The battle became known in German as Die Hölle von Verdun, or in French as L'Enfer de Verdun. Both names translate to English as 'the Hell of Verdun'.

    It was the longest and one of the most devastating battles in the First World War and the history of warfare.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334354/Archaeologists-unearth-bones-20-French-First-World-War-dead-chance-discovery-hikers-forest-Verdun.html#ixzz2UyxILWay

    The battle of the Somme was in large part designed to take the pressure off the French army in Verdun by forcing the Germans to reinforce the more northern areas. French losses in the first war were tremendous, and unlike the British forces thr troops were rarely rotated to rear areas to regroup and recover. At that time the French were holding much more of the front line than the British.

    There were some tremendous battles elsewhere in europe such as Tannenberg in Prussia, Caporetto in Italy, or the Brusilov offensive in what is now the Ukraine. This long forgotton battle was a rare Russian success and destroyed Austria-Hungary as a fighting force, as well as inventing the stormtroop tactics that evolved into Blitzkreig. All of these battles had a scale of losses that were equal to the Somme or Paschendaele, but our first war memories are mostly of the Western Front.
    Many thanx for that - it was WW1/Crimea stories that really moved me as a kid - the slaughter/conditions/horror/treatment of deserters and the shell-shocked.

    I find myself really uncomfortable with the idea of drones bombing third-world places like some one-sided video game form of warfare. I don't know the answer, but this feels wrong to me on a visceral level. I've no ethical issue with waging wars - but to have it so one-sided?
    Wars of mass conscript armies between industrialised nations are just history now that the cold war is over. Modern war is much less clearcut, with shadowy guerilla forces on one side who have no restrictions on how they engage, vs highly technical armies with tight restrictions on how they are permitted to fight, but equipped with surveillance and combat drones.

    There are many advantages to drones and remote controlled killer robots, one being that the operators may make more calm and reasoned decisions, and can take advice in a way that was impossible in earlier wars.

    The key to success with drone strikes is the quality of information on which they are based. Is this a wedding or a Taliban conference? It may be hard to tell the difference sometimes, and indeed the two may be the same event in some cases.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    I hadn't heard of this WW1 battle before - its sounds absolutely horrific - RIP the soldiers who were lost and to those who've just been found

    "Seven of the soldiers have already been identified through the military identification tags they wore. According to official records, these soldiers were killed in combat between March 28 and April 5.

    Investigations have already begun to find the descendants of the men.

    In cases where the family does not want to recover the body, the soldiers will be buried in the Fleury military cemetery under a white cross.

    Where no identification can be made the bones will be kept at the the Douaumont ossuary, a memorial containing the remains of soldiers who died on the battlefield during the Battle of Verdun

    During the 300 days of the Battle of Verdun, which lasted from February 21 1916 to December 19 1916, approximately 230,000 men died on a battlefield covering less than eight square miles.

    Most were killed by artillery.

    The battle became known in German as Die Hölle von Verdun, or in French as L'Enfer de Verdun. Both names translate to English as 'the Hell of Verdun'.

    It was the longest and one of the most devastating battles in the First World War and the history of warfare.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334354/Archaeologists-unearth-bones-20-French-First-World-War-dead-chance-discovery-hikers-forest-Verdun.html#ixzz2UyxILWay

    The battle of the Somme was in large part designed to take the pressure off the French army in Verdun by forcing the Germans to reinforce the more northern areas. French losses in the first war were tremendous, and unlike the British forces thr troops were rarely rotated to rear areas to regroup and recover. At that time the French were holding much more of the front line than the British.

    There were some tremendous battles elsewhere in europe such as Tannenberg in Prussia, Caporetto in Italy, or the Brusilov offensive in what is now the Ukraine. This long forgotton battle was a rare Russian success and destroyed Austria-Hungary as a fighting force, as well as inventing the stormtroop tactics that evolved into Blitzkreig. All of these battles had a scale of losses that were equal to the Somme or Paschendaele, but our first war memories are mostly of the Western Front.
    Many thanx for that - it was WW1/Crimea stories that really moved me as a kid - the slaughter/conditions/horror/treatment of deserters and the shell-shocked.

    I find myself really uncomfortable with the idea of drones bombing third-world places like some one-sided video game form of warfare. I don't know the answer, but this feels wrong to me on a visceral level. I've no ethical issue with waging wars - but to have it so one-sided?
    Wars of mass conscript armies between industrialised nations are just history now that the cold war is over. Modern war is much less clearcut, with shadowy guerilla forces on one side who have no restrictions on how they engage, vs highly technical armies with tight restrictions on how they are permitted to fight, but equipped with surveillance and combat drones.

    There are many advantages to drones and remote controlled killer robots, one being that the operators may make more calm and reasoned decisions, and can take advice in a way that was impossible in earlier wars.

    The key to success with drone strikes is the quality of information on which they are based. Is this a wedding or a Taliban conference? It may be hard to tell the difference sometimes, and indeed the two may be the same event in some cases.
    I agree - its the video-game aspect that worries me. It removes the element of humanity/being on the spot that makes me concerned. I'm sure its a lot easier to zap someone from several thousand miles away and you never see the consequences with your own eyes.

    It's dehumanising to my mind.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @JamesKelly

    Given you say that I'm the Queen of Pointlessness - I find your posts most odd.

    - You pro-actively cite me without any reason re cat videos, yet don't mention those relating to cricket or tennis or F1 or in fact anything else

    - You then miss the irony of me posting a cat video which any could see as a *joke* on you

    - You then decide to respond to posts by me about other subjects that you'd surely ignore if you weren't bothered as you say

    You reveal yourself on every occasion. Go haunt someone else if you really care as little as you do.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited June 2013
    Andrew Redmond Barr ‏@AndrewRBarr
    Exclusive: Better Together unveil "most convincing leaflet yet". #IndyRef https://twitter.com/AndrewRBarr/status/340480269226229761/photo/1
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Plato said:

    Can I ask for some info re The Sopranos - is it like a very long version of Goodfellas...where Joe Pesci doesn't die for several seasons or something else?

    I keep hearing its superb - but the idea of watching wise-guys machoing each other for hours on end may be too much even for me... and I watched Goodfellas twice back to back at the movies...

    I didn't like it much as i can't watch gangster stuff for long without wanting to take a flamethrower to the lot of them but apart from that i thought it was very well done.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    I hadn't heard of this WW1 battle before - its sounds absolutely horrific - RIP the soldiers who were lost and to those who've just been found

    "Seven of the soldiers have already been identified through the military identification tags they wore. According to official records, these soldiers were killed in combat between March 28 and April 5.

    Investigations have already begun to find the descendants of the men.

    In cases where the family does not want to recover the body, the soldiers will be buried in the Fleury military cemetery under a white cross.

    Where no identification can be made the bones will be kept at the the Douaumont ossuary, a memorial containing the remains of soldiers who died on the battlefield during the Battle of Verdun

    During the 300 days of the Battle of Verdun, which lasted from February 21 1916 to December 19 1916, approximately 230,000 men died on a battlefield covering less than eight square miles.

    Most were killed by artillery.

    The battle became known in German as Die Hölle von Verdun, or in French as L'Enfer de Verdun. Both names translate to English as 'the Hell of Verdun'.

    It was the longest and one of the most devastating battles in the First World War and the history of warfare.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334354/Archaeologists-unearth-bones-20-French-First-World-War-dead-chance-discovery-hikers-forest-Verdun.html#ixzz2UyxILWay

    The battle of the Somme was in large part designed to take the pressure off the French army in Verdun by forcing the Germans to reinforce the more northern areas. French losses in the first war were tremendous, and unlike the British forces thr troops were rarely rotated to rear areas to regroup and recover. At that time the French were holding much more of the front line than the British.

    There were some tremendous battles elsewhere in europe such as Tannenberg in Prussia, Caporetto in Italy, or the Brusilov offensive in what is now the Ukraine. This long forgotton battle was a rare Russian success and destroyed Austria-Hungary as a fighting force, as well as inventing the stormtroop tactics that evolved into Blitzkreig. All of these battles had a scale of losses that were equal to the Somme or Paschendaele, but our first war memories are mostly of the Western Front.
    Many thanx for that - it was WW1/Crimea stories that really moved me as a kid - the slaughter/conditions/horror/treatment of deserters and the shell-shocked.

    I find myself really uncomfortable with the idea of drones bombing third-world places like some one-sided video game form of warfare. I don't know the answer, but this feels wrong to me on a visceral level. I've no ethical issue with waging wars - but to have it so one-sided?
    Wars of mass conscript armies between industrialised nations are just history now that the cold war is over. Modern war is much less clearcut, with shadowy guerilla forces on one side who have no restrictions on how they engage, vs highly technical armies with tight restrictions on how they are permitted to fight, but equipped with surveillance and combat drones.

    There are many advantages to drones and remote controlled killer robots, one being that the operators may make more calm and reasoned decisions, and can take advice in a way that was impossible in earlier wars.

    The key to success with drone strikes is the quality of information on which they are based. Is this a wedding or a Taliban conference? It may be hard to tell the difference sometimes, and indeed the two may be the same event in some cases.
    I agree - its the video-game aspect that worries me. It removes the element of humanity/being on the spot that makes me concerned. I'm sure its a lot easier to zap someone from several thousand miles away and you never see the consequences with your own eyes.

    It's dehumanising to my mind.
    On the other hand, those co-ordinating drones are less likely to give way to panic, to anger, to veangeance than those in the field. They can also be supervised far more effectively, which will stamp out abuse. There's a reason civilian casualties are far lower with drones than with armies in the field.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Plato said:

    Socrates said:

    Plato said:

    Can I ask for some info re The Sopranos - is it like a very long version of Goodfellas...where Joe Pesci doesn't die for several seasons or something else?

    I keep hearing its superb - but the idea of watching wise-guys machoing each other for hours on end may be too much even for me... and I watched Goodfellas twice back to back at the movies...

    I thought the Sopranos was much better than Goodfellas, partially because I don't like Ray Liotta very much. Sopranos delves into family lives and psychology of the mobsters a lot more, particularly Tony, who goes to therapy sessions.
    Will give it a shot - its when Mafioso stuff goes all psycho a la Pesci that I find it tiresome/predictable - its like watching someone with nitroglycerine threatening people in a bus queue [this holds true for gangbanger films re disrespect].

    I really liked Liotta so clearly its horses for courses, but he's very long in the tooth nowadays.
    Have you watched Breaking Bad? I get the impression you might like more than the Sopranos.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited June 2013
    Plato -

    "You pro-actively cite me without any reason re cat videos"

    Of course there was a reason. You asked a question ("is there anything more pointless than trolling?") and I helpfully supplied an answer.

    "You then miss the irony of me posting a cat video which any could see as a *joke* on you"

    As you're a "libertarian with a fiscal conservative twist" who claims to have voted Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005, I can only defer to you as the ultimate authority in irony.

    "You then decide to respond to posts by me about other subjects that you'd surely ignore if you weren't bothered as you say"

    I tried very hard to comprehend that sentence but unfortunately my brain turned to mush.

    "Go haunt someone else if you really care as little as you do."

    That was Edmund's riposte to you, wasn't it?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Grandiose said:

    The Green Party committed to a Minimum Wage of £8.10 an hour, and a maximum wage "in any organisation is no more than ten times the minimum wage in that organisation". They would also "require 40% of board members of larger companies to be female within five years." Their manifesto also focussed on measures to boost equality on a sizable scale.

    They also committed themselves to increase the size of the state and tax revenues accordingly, when for the three main parties it was about the scale of cuts.

    Why should that make them communist ?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Plato said:

    Grandiose said:

    The Green Party committed to a Minimum Wage of £8.10 an hour, and a maximum wage "in any organisation is no more than ten times the minimum wage in that organisation". They would also "require 40% of board members of larger companies to be female within five years." Their manifesto also focussed on measures to boost equality on a sizable scale.

    They also committed themselves to increase the size of the state and tax revenues accordingly, when for the three main parties it was about the scale of cuts.

    TBH, the Greenies have already had their chance re Global Warming - they've added substantially to energy costs, blighted the countryside with wind turbines that aren't up to the job and have put the Western world at a substantial disadvantage. Oh, but its made Greenies like Al Gore incredibly rich.

    That the climate isn't playing ball, and their *scientists* are losing credibility post Climategate just proves that even telling a Really Big Lie doesn't work for very long in the face of the reality.

    And on that note - I'm off to enjoy the evening sun, dickies tweeting noisily, a pizza and Supernatural S3.
    Aren't those massive power stations , coal fired or gas / oil burning, with their hideous cooling towers, also built in the countryside ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,314
    surbiton said:

    Plato said:

    Grandiose said:

    The Green Party committed to a Minimum Wage of £8.10 an hour, and a maximum wage "in any organisation is no more than ten times the minimum wage in that organisation". They would also "require 40% of board members of larger companies to be female within five years." Their manifesto also focussed on measures to boost equality on a sizable scale.

    They also committed themselves to increase the size of the state and tax revenues accordingly, when for the three main parties it was about the scale of cuts.

    TBH, the Greenies have already had their chance re Global Warming - they've added substantially to energy costs, blighted the countryside with wind turbines that aren't up to the job and have put the Western world at a substantial disadvantage. Oh, but its made Greenies like Al Gore incredibly rich.

    That the climate isn't playing ball, and their *scientists* are losing credibility post Climategate just proves that even telling a Really Big Lie doesn't work for very long in the face of the reality.

    And on that note - I'm off to enjoy the evening sun, dickies tweeting noisily, a pizza and Supernatural S3.
    Aren't those massive power stations , coal fired or gas / oil burning, with their hideous cooling towers, also built in the countryside ?
    May I suggest you compare both the physical and visual footprint of a medium-sized wind farm with a small power station, and then compare the power they generate.

    For extra points, compare the upland area of the Monadhliath Mountains with the Trent Valley.

    http://www.savemonadhliathmountains.com/
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618

    Plato said:

    I hadn't heard of this WW1 battle before - its sounds absolutely horrific - RIP the soldiers who were lost and to those who've just been found

    "Seven of the soldiers have already been identified through the military identification tags they wore. According to official records, these soldiers were killed in combat between March 28 and April 5.

    Investigations have already begun to find the descendants of the men.

    In cases where the family does not want to recover the body, the soldiers will be buried in the Fleury military cemetery under a white cross.

    Where no identification can be made the bones will be kept at the the Douaumont ossuary, a memorial containing the remains of soldiers who died on the battlefield during the Battle of Verdun

    During the 300 days of the Battle of Verdun, which lasted from February 21 1916 to December 19 1916, approximately 230,000 men died on a battlefield covering less than eight square miles.

    Most were killed by artillery.

    The battle became known in German as Die Hölle von Verdun, or in French as L'Enfer de Verdun. Both names translate to English as 'the Hell of Verdun'.

    It was the longest and one of the most devastating battles in the First World War and the history of warfare.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334354/Archaeologists-unearth-bones-20-French-First-World-War-dead-chance-discovery-hikers-forest-Verdun.html#ixzz2UyxILWay

    The battle of the Somme was in large part designed to take the pressure off the French army in Verdun by forcing the Germans to reinforce the more northern areas. French losses in the first war were tremendous, and unlike the British forces thr troops were rarely rotated to rear areas to regroup and recover. At that time the French were holding much more of the front line than the British.

    There were some tremendous battles elsewhere in europe such as Tannenberg in Prussia, Caporetto in Italy, or the Brusilov offensive in what is now the Ukraine. This long forgotton battle was a rare Russian success and destroyed Austria-Hungary as a fighting force, as well as inventing the stormtroop tactics that evolved into Blitzkreig. All of these battles had a scale of losses that were equal to the Somme or Paschendaele, but our first war memories are mostly of the Western Front.

    Plato said:

    I hadn't heard of this WW1 battle before - its sounds absolutely horrific - RIP the soldiers who were lost and to those who've just been found

    "Seven of the soldiers have already been identified through the military identification tags they wore. According to official records, these soldiers were killed in combat between March 28 and April 5.

    Investigations have already begun to find the descendants of the men.

    In cases where the family does not want to recover the body, the soldiers will be buried in the Fleury military cemetery under a white cross.

    Where no identification can be made the bones will be kept at the the Douaumont ossuary, a memorial containing the remains of soldiers who died on the battlefield during the Battle of Verdun

    During the 300 days of the Battle of Verdun, which lasted from February 21 1916 to December 19 1916, approximately 230,000 men died on a battlefield covering less than eight square miles.

    Most were killed by artillery.

    The battle became known in German as Die Hölle von Verdun, or in French as L'Enfer de Verdun. Both names translate to English as 'the Hell of Verdun'.

    It was the longest and one of the most devastating battles in the First World War and the history of warfare.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334354/Archaeologists-unearth-bones-20-French-First-World-War-dead-chance-discovery-hikers-forest-Verdun.html#ixzz2UyxILWay

    The battle of the Somme was in large part designed to take the pressure off the French army in Verdun by forcing the Germans to reinforce the more northern areas. French losses in the first war were tremendous, and unlike the British forces thr troops were rarely rotated to rear areas to regroup and recover. At that time the French were holding much more of the front line than the British.

    There were some tremendous battles elsewhere in europe such as Tannenberg in Prussia, Caporetto in Italy, or the Brusilov offensive in what is now the Ukraine. This long forgotton battle was a rare Russian success and destroyed Austria-Hungary as a fighting force, as well as inventing the stormtroop tactics that evolved into Blitzkreig. All of these battles had a scale of losses that were equal to the Somme or Paschendaele, but our first war memories are mostly of the Western Front.

    Plato said:

    I hadn't heard of this WW1 battle before - its sounds absolutely horrific - RIP the soldiers who were lost and to those who've just been found

    I have climbed regularly in the Dolomites,climbing the old Via Ferrata routes used by the Italian army during WW1, and they still send a shudder down my spine. To crawl through the tunnels,and the trenches,and avoid the barbed wire which is still there,is chilling. In one tunnel which almost no-one will ever be able to get to, there,is an inscription carved into the wall "One day the whole world will visit,and see how we fought".Hardly the whole world,but I found it.
    There is a huge amount of original stuff still up there,undisturbed because it is almost impossible to reach,original wooden ladders,bunks etc,very thought provoking.
    There are huges chunks blown out of the mountains,where each side tunneled under each other and planted mines,a museum in the valley shows the true horror of what went on. They literally threw gas canisters into each others tunnels,and went in with clubs and maces to finish each other off,almost mediaevil.
    Despite the horrors,I am back there again soon for my regular adrenalin fix.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    @Plato

    Sopranos is excellent. It gets under the skin of an everyday gangster family and is acutely well observed. Second only to The Wire with West Wing a close third.

    Debates? Yep he has to have one. With Farage. He can give it as much "he has no MPs" as he likes but the public ain't in the mood for that excuse. It's why they are voting UKIP in the first place - not to be lectured about what is right or wrong or good or bad for them.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    Well that last comment did not seem to work.
    I wanted to post on the true horrors of WW1,which still gives me sleepless nights.
    I have regularly climbed in the Dolomites,following the old Via Ferrata routes,set up by the Italians in WW1,and it is truly spine chilling. The routes are extremely difficult,and as such there are many artifacts,tunnels,trenches,barbed wire etc,still intact.
    One obscure tunnel I got into had an inscription,carved into the wall"One day the whole world will visit and see how we fought",well hardly the world,but I found it.
    The fighting was truly barbaric,and almost mediaevil in its brutality.
    I have a piece of WW1 barbed wire in my house to remind me,maybe more should visit,it would help prevent future wars.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    I would imagine Cameron would like one debate with Ed Milliband in the centre,Clegg on the left side and himself on the right.

    Both coalition partners attacking the opposition.

    I think the conservative focus groups are correct in saying Ed Milliband comes across better in a longer forum.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    @Yorkcity

    it would be amazing if EdM didn't come over well - he has grown up in politics, indeed was imbibing it at the teat.

    In 2010 people feared the nasty Cons but realised Lab were useless hence their agreement with Nick as he stole the debates.

    Now, there are undoubtedbly issues with Europe, right of centre, right of right, etc but the economy is demonstrably improving and relatively is better than our neighbours across the channel if not the pond (and why would it be?).

    So Dave has a very firm line in the Cons rescuing the UK from Labour's profligacy. If he sticks to that he won't suffer and may gain.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,595
    The debate will be worth it just to hear how many times we get an "I agree with Nick". And who says it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    jayfdee said:

    Well that last comment did not seem to work.
    I wanted to post on the true horrors of WW1,which still gives me sleepless nights.
    I have regularly climbed in the Dolomites,following the old Via Ferrata routes,set up by the Italians in WW1,and it is truly spine chilling. The routes are extremely difficult,and as such there are many artifacts,tunnels,trenches,barbed wire etc,still intact.
    One obscure tunnel I got into had an inscription,carved into the wall"One day the whole world will visit and see how we fought",well hardly the world,but I found it.
    The fighting was truly barbaric,and almost mediaevil in its brutality.
    I have a piece of WW1 barbed wire in my house to remind me,maybe more should visit,it would help prevent future wars.

    I remember being on a battlefield tour when our guide pointed to The Somme and said, of a few hundred acres of mixed use land, there lie a million bodies buried.

    Extraordinary.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    jayfdee said:

    Well that last comment did not seem to work.
    I wanted to post on the true horrors of WW1,which still gives me sleepless nights.
    I have regularly climbed in the Dolomites,following the old Via Ferrata routes,set up by the Italians in WW1,and it is truly spine chilling. The routes are extremely difficult,and as such there are many artifacts,tunnels,trenches,barbed wire etc,still intact.
    One obscure tunnel I got into had an inscription,carved into the wall"One day the whole world will visit and see how we fought",well hardly the world,but I found it.
    The fighting was truly barbaric,and almost mediaevil in its brutality.
    I have a piece of WW1 barbed wire in my house to remind me,maybe more should visit,it would help prevent future wars.

    Although WWI was totally ****ed up in every way it still shows the immense power of nationalism.
  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    Can't see how Cameron could avoid the leaders debates. If he did, it would pretty much guarantee a Labour majority.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Topping it wouldn`t be amazing.

    He is still learning improving at QT, as must be the case due to Cameron not wanting to be there every week.
    His major platform speeches are also improving.
    His one to one`s especially on the radio are problematic.
    However his longer answering questions from an audience, seems to be his best forum to project himself in a good light.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    Yorkcity said:

    Topping it wouldn`t be amazing.

    He is still learning improving at QT, as must be the case due to Cameron not wanting to be there every week.
    His major platform speeches are also improving.
    His one to one`s especially on the radio are problematic.
    However his longer answering questions from an audience, seems to be his best forum to project himself in a good light.

    EdM struggles when he is pinned down on, ahem, policies. He is great at rambling saving the world stuff. Dissected, though, it's fluff. Cam has nothing to worry about in debating him.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,374
    This is something you'd see in a Monty Python sketch or a PG Wodehouse novel, but the sentiment is right, we're the best country in the world

    Chris Deerin ‏@chrisdeerin 23m

    Best country on earth: 'Far-Right Extremists Chased Through London by Women Dressed as Badgers' http://goo.gl/wF9IT ht @gabrielmilland
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,374
    On topic, once the debates began, no leader could pull out of them without their being bad consequences.

    Can you imagine Thatcher or Blair doing this, they'd up their game and by sheer force of personality overcome their opponents.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Plato said:

    Can I ask for some info re The Sopranos - is it like a very long version of Goodfellas...where Joe Pesci doesn't die for several seasons or something else?

    I keep hearing its superb - but the idea of watching wise-guys machoing each other for hours on end may be too much even for me... and I watched Goodfellas twice back to back at the movies...

    Sopranos is great tv.

    Probably some of the best I have ever seen.

  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Topping.

    I think all opposition leaders struggle when pinned down on policies.
    Cameron made a big impression with me, due to his commitment to the NHS, which was undoubtedly reinforced in that he used it for his severley disabled son.
    Then to commit to no top down reorganistation was a serious breach of trust.

    Also Brown for example with his stupid policy of giving free bus passes tv licences heating allowances etc to all, got an opposition leader to say he would do the same.
    This was just one example.
  • Edin_RokzEdin_Rokz Posts: 516
    TOPPING said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Topping it wouldn`t be amazing.

    He is still learning improving at QT, as must be the case due to Cameron not wanting to be there every week.
    His major platform speeches are also improving.
    His one to one`s especially on the radio are problematic.
    However his longer answering questions from an audience, seems to be his best forum to project himself in a good light.

    EdM struggles when he is pinned down on, ahem, policies. He is great at rambling saving the world stuff. Dissected, though, it's fluff. Cam has nothing to worry about in debating him.
    Er! 2 years from a fixed GE and you want a fixed set of policies like, er, no top down changes of the NHS or er, cut student charges (and sign a contract). Oh, so sorry, the political game plan has changed and who set it up? Get real.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,374
    Scotland Yard could launch an investigation into potential breaches of the 2010 Bribery Act by Tory MP Patrick Mercer. The Observer understands that at least one MP is preparing a complaint that could spark a Met probe into whether Mercer has broken the law, amid allegations that he tabled parliamentary questions on behalf of a lobbying firm paying him thousands of pounds.

    The revelation raises the prospect that Mercer could be subjected to a criminal investigation, the first into an MP since the act was introduced. Those found guilty under the act can be subject to prison sentences running up to 10 years if the case goes to a full trial.

    A potential defence against any charge could be parliamentary privilege – the right of MPs to ask questions without fear of being subject to legal action.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/01/patrick-mercer
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,374
    Yay, a chance for reform of the House of Lords

    Neil Henderson ‏@hendopolis 6m

    INDEPENDENT: Lobbying scandal gripes as peers are snared #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/xzU9lM8Q9U
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Plato said:

    Can I ask for some info re The Sopranos - is it like a very long version of Goodfellas...where Joe Pesci doesn't die for several seasons or something else?

    I keep hearing its superb - but the idea of watching wise-guys machoing each other for hours on end may be too much even for me... and I watched Goodfellas twice back to back at the movies...

    Best bit is the music over the opening credits - "Woke Up This Morning" by Alabama 3 (who are from Brixton, which makes you proud to be British). Otherwise OK but not blow-your-socks-off.

  • Gerry_ManderGerry_Mander Posts: 621

    Yay, a chance for reform of the House of Lords

    Neil Henderson ‏@hendopolis 6m

    INDEPENDENT: Lobbying scandal gripes as peers are snared #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/xzU9lM8Q9U

    Oh goody goody gumdrops. Some exciting news for Sunday. It is all quiet round here. Is everyone enjoying the pleasant evening?
  • NextNext Posts: 826

    Yay, a chance for reform of the House of Lords

    Neil Henderson ‏@hendopolis 6m

    INDEPENDENT: Lobbying scandal gripes as peers are snared #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/xzU9lM8Q9U

    Great. Are the Lib Dems going to be insisting on the boundary changes as well?
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    I look forward to the BBC news site running the stories about the Labour peers at the top of their agenda for 48 hours.

    They are supposed to be balanced, right?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2013
    I haven't watched the Sopranos yet so that's something to look forward to.
  • Gerry_ManderGerry_Mander Posts: 621
    Next said:

    I look forward to the BBC news site running the stories about the Labour peers at the top of their agenda for 48 hours.

    They are supposed to be balanced, right?
    Or Polly to say "A Tory MP and two peers". She has previous on this.
  • @TSE
    The Observer understands that at least one MP is preparing a complaint that could spark a Met probe into whether Mercer has broken the law, amid allegations that he tabled parliamentary questions on behalf of a lobbying firm paying him thousands of pounds.

    My wild stab in the dark for the complaining MP.
    John Mann
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    jayfdee said:

    Well that last comment did not seem to work.
    I wanted to post on the true horrors of WW1,which still gives me sleepless nights.
    I have regularly climbed in the Dolomites,following the old Via Ferrata routes,set up by the Italians in WW1,and it is truly spine chilling. The routes are extremely difficult,and as such there are many artifacts,tunnels,trenches,barbed wire etc,still intact.
    One obscure tunnel I got into had an inscription,carved into the wall"One day the whole world will visit and see how we fought",well hardly the world,but I found it.
    The fighting was truly barbaric,and almost mediaevil in its brutality.
    I have a piece of WW1 barbed wire in my house to remind me,maybe more should visit,it would help prevent future wars.

    The best description I heard for why the casulties were so high was that WW1 was 'a nineteenth century war fought with twentieth century weapons'
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scotland Yard could launch an investigation into potential breaches of the 2010 Bribery Act by Tory MP Patrick Mercer. The Observer understands that at least one MP is preparing a complaint that could spark a Met probe into whether Mercer has broken the law, amid allegations that he tabled parliamentary questions on behalf of a lobbying firm paying him thousands of pounds.

    The revelation raises the prospect that Mercer could be subjected to a criminal investigation, the first into an MP since the act was introduced. Those found guilty under the act can be subject to prison sentences running up to 10 years if the case goes to a full trial.

    A potential defence against any charge could be parliamentary privilege – the right of MPs to ask questions without fear of being subject to legal action.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/01/patrick-mercer

    I've got to say, I'm increasinlgy disturbed by the willingness of MPs or all parties to use criminal allegations or involve the police as a political weapon.

    Mercer (allegedly) has done wrong. Assuming the stories are true, it's good that he has resigned the whip & there is a strong case he should quit now as an MP. But what's the point of involving the police?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,675

    Thankyou, Fluffy, for the badge of honour.

    A few weeks back, Fluffy also pressed "spam" on one of my comments re. Ed, so you're not alone!

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,675
    Plato said:

    I hadn't heard of this WW1 battle before - its sounds absolutely horrific - RIP the soldiers who were lost and to those who've just been found

    "Seven of the soldiers have already been identified through the military identification tags they wore. According to official records, these soldiers were killed in combat between March 28 and April 5.

    Investigations have already begun to find the descendants of the men.

    In cases where the family does not want to recover the body, the soldiers will be buried in the Fleury military cemetery under a white cross.

    Where no identification can be made the bones will be kept at the the Douaumont ossuary, a memorial containing the remains of soldiers who died on the battlefield during the Battle of Verdun

    During the 300 days of the Battle of Verdun, which lasted from February 21 1916 to December 19 1916, approximately 230,000 men died on a battlefield covering less than eight square miles.

    Most were killed by artillery.

    The battle became known in German as Die Hölle von Verdun, or in French as L'Enfer de Verdun. Both names translate to English as 'the Hell of Verdun'.

    It was the longest and one of the most devastating battles in the First World War and the history of warfare.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334354/Archaeologists-unearth-bones-20-French-First-World-War-dead-chance-discovery-hikers-forest-Verdun.html#ixzz2UyxILWay

    Looks like the real figure was a lot higher - presume 230,000 was just British dead?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_by_casualties
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Available soon if anyone missed it:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0210v8b
  • Charles said:

    I've got to say, I'm increasinlgy disturbed by the willingness of MPs or all parties to use criminal allegations or involve the police as a political weapon.

    Mercer (allegedly) has done wrong. Assuming the stories are true, it's good that he has resigned the whip & there is a strong case he should quit now as an MP. But what's the point of involving the police?

    You could have made exactly the same point about those MPs who engaged in false accounting in respect of their expenses. MPs ought to be subject to the laws of the land like anyone else.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,712
    TSE, the idea that the Tories would somehow scupper the debates is really daft. The Independent is adding independence from reality to its strings if it thinks so.

    Farage (currently) entirely deserves a place in the debates. Assuming UKIP don't somehow vanish from the radar he will and should be involved. It's reasonable to think that such a thing may hurt the Tories electoral chances, but that's the price that has to be paid for democracy.

    If I step back a bit it seems to me that all of the current politicians are fiddling while Rome burns, and I'd love for there to be some bright light on the horizon. We are, I fear, consigned to this false battle between "spend" and "spend a little less". The Farage's and Clegg's of this world just exist to steal the shiny stuff magpie-like. 'New Labour', Labour, all of the left brands have so infected the debate that rationality has long departed.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Ministers accused daily of bending stats, cash-for-questions (reheated) and now rumours the coward PM is going to kill the debates?

    EdM couldn't have dreamed a better script.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,374
    Omnium said:

    TSE, the idea that the Tories would somehow scupper the debates is really daft. The Independent is adding independence from reality to its strings if it thinks so.

    Farage (currently) entirely deserves a place in the debates. Assuming UKIP don't somehow vanish from the radar he will and should be involved. It's reasonable to think that such a thing may hurt the Tories electoral chances, but that's the price that has to be paid for democracy.

    If I step back a bit it seems to me that all of the current politicians are fiddling while Rome burns, and I'd love for there to be some bright light on the horizon. We are, I fear, consigned to this false battle between "spend" and "spend a little less". The Farage's and Clegg's of this world just exist to steal the shiny stuff magpie-like. 'New Labour', Labour, all of the left brands have so infected the debate that rationality has long departed.

    Grant Shapps was the one who started it last year

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-may-duck-tv-election-debates-8347742.html
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,509
    Charles said:

    Scotland Yard could launch an investigation into potential breaches of the 2010 Bribery Act by Tory MP Patrick Mercer. The Observer understands that at least one MP is preparing a complaint that could spark a Met probe into whether Mercer has broken the law, amid allegations that he tabled parliamentary questions on behalf of a lobbying firm paying him thousands of pounds.

    The revelation raises the prospect that Mercer could be subjected to a criminal investigation, the first into an MP since the act was introduced. Those found guilty under the act can be subject to prison sentences running up to 10 years if the case goes to a full trial.

    A potential defence against any charge could be parliamentary privilege – the right of MPs to ask questions without fear of being subject to legal action.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/01/patrick-mercer

    I've got to say, I'm increasinlgy disturbed by the willingness of MPs or all parties to use criminal allegations or involve the police as a political weapon.

    Mercer (allegedly) has done wrong. Assuming the stories are true, it's good that he has resigned the whip & there is a strong case he should quit now as an MP. But what's the point of involving the police?
    Regardless of the merits, it's a really thin story, isn't it? The Observer "understands" that an MP is "preparing" a complaint, so Mercer "could" be subjected to a criminal investigation. You *could* accuse me of arson and the police would be obliged to consider that allegation too. It doesn't actually mean anything unless they decided to charge him.
This discussion has been closed.