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  • isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I wish UKIP would stop copying the policies of the Tory's EU headbangers... so unoriginal.
    Shall we form our own Tory party?

    Free of headbangers and traitorous pig dogs
    Done - as for the name, I say "The UK pleasantly moist Conservative party". With Frances Pym and Ken Clarke as honourary patrons.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,706
    Hugh said:

    philiph said:

    Hugh said:

    Blaming the bankers for the recession is deranged
    there has been endless commentariat wittering about "the bankers", which has often descended into the politics of envy


    Lol.

    Ohhh, those poor bankers.

    They and they alone, not spending on public services, caused the world economy to crash.

    Regulate and tax them until the pips squeek. Then it won't happen again.

    Cameron's pathetic crawling to the bankers in the EU by vetoing a very mild measure like the Robin Hood tax shows where Tory allegiances lie. With bankers and big business, not ordinary people.

    Ahh yes, the Robin Hood tax, a neat way of moving a few Billion from the UK economy into EU coffers.

    Or moving billions from the pockets of bankers who caused the crash to the pockets of the ordinary hard workers who bailed them out.

    Most of the ordinary hard workers I hear about are getting tax credits, so I doubt they are paying the nations debts.

    The squeezed middle may be contributing more.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,086
    edited October 2014
    O/T Anthropogenic Global Warming

    September 2014 comes in (as widely expected) the warmest September ever recorded according to NOAA (following August 2014 which was the warmest August ever recorded).

    The current year to-date is the warmest YTD ever recorded. It's now quite likely that 2014 will be the warmest year ever recorded globally.

    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2014/9

    Global Warming? What Global Warming?
  • isamisam Posts: 42,643
    philiph said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Talking of property prices in London, elderly pb-ers, such as me, will recall that the tyre garage next to my Camden flat has been undergoing transformation into residential development for the last 60,000 years, sorry, 5 years (which, I believe, is longer than it took the Italians to build the entire and exquisite Renaissance city centre of Pienza)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pienza



    FFFFFFFFS.

    Anyway, my new neighbour, as it approaches completion, has a suitably ridiculous new name, Solstice Point.

    The development was meant to be affordable housing but - *cough* - this concept got lost somewhere in the last half decade as London boomed once again.

    Ergo the flats are on sale on the open market. And how much will a small 1 bed flat in "Solstice Point" cost you?

    £750,000

    http://search.knightfrank.co.uk/krd140916

    What this means on a larger scale I dunno. It's great for me as my flat zooms in value (even as my stocks and shares collapse). But I fear this kind of pricing can only fuel envy of London, resentment of London, and the increasing division of the nation.

    F*ck it, if they have a revolution I will sell and move to A CASTLE on the Costa Vicentina.

    The next kick out against the elite will be the trafficking of social housing residents out of zones 1 & 2 and to the suburbs.. it's already happening, and people aren't happy
    Where do the Elite hold the policy and planning meetings required to be so effective and cohesive?
    They merge council back offices as a "cost cutting exercise" to start off with
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Winston McKenzie on Newsnight. Comedy gold is bound to ensue.
  • Tonights YG LAB 331 CON 268 LD 22 Other 29 (UKPR)

    EICIPM

    Lab ave. lead this week 2.33% 3polls

    For the purposes of comparison, can you give us the average Tory lead in the third week of October 2009?
    [history deleted]
    [records only begin May 2010]
  • isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I wish UKIP would stop copying the policies of the Tory's EU headbangers... so unoriginal.
    Shall we form our own Tory party?

    Free of headbangers and traitorous pig dogs
    Done - as for the name, I say "The UK pleasantly moist Conservative party". With Frances Pym and Ken Clarke as honourary patrons.
    And Matthew Parris as patron as well.
  • Neil said:

    Winston McKenzie on Newsnight. Comedy gold is bound to ensue.

    FPT

    Paging Neil.

    That 50% early payment discount offer is still available on our Greens outpolling the Lib Dems bet.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,543
    Hugh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Hugh said:

    kle4 said:

    Hugh said:

    DavidL said:

    I stopped reading 9 early on when I came across the following sentence:

    "Between 2003 and 2007 the deficit rose, but at 3.2% of GDP a year it was manageable."

    A 3.2% deficit at the peak of an unsustainable boom was "manageable". It would make you weep. Labour and their supporters have so much to learn.

    Public spending or deficit didn't cause the global economic crisis, private sector bankers did.

    Tories have peddled the myth as cover for ideological cuts and shrinking the State.

    It also means Gideon and Co have failed to address our real economic problems, like our rotten banks and private sector big business, as well as abject Tory failure on the deficit.
    I remain confused - if deficits are not in themselves bad if they are manageable, what does it matter that the Tories failed to reduce it, and if we are to condemn them for that failure (I do), presumably we should have had much harsher cuts or tax rises, as growth alone would not cover it. Labour would not sanction the former, and electorally would probably be cagey on the latter, so while I could criticise the Tories for failing on the deficit, the opposition cannot if they want to keep to the line about how harsh the cuts have been, so it can only be individuals and fringe groups making that argument, and who will have to condemn Ed M when he starts cutting too.
    The deficit wasn't a problem pre-crash. It only became a problem after the private sector bankers wrecked the global economy.

    That's why the Tory failure on the deficit and economy / living standards is so serious.

    Spending money on public services didn't cause our economic problems, the bankers who caused the global crisis, and politicians like Cameron and Osborne who failed to learn lessons from it, are the ones to blame.

    It wasn't a problem if you believed the hype that Gordon Brown had abolished the business cycle.

    Once it became clear that he hadn't, in 2008, then the deficit became a problem.

    The global crash the private sector / bankers caused wasn't part of the ordinary business "cycle". It was a once in a lifetime economic catastrophe.

    Recessions happen. It's foolish for any government to build it's fiscal policy on the assumption that this will never be the case.

    You seem to think that a cabal of businessmen decided to engineer a crash for shit and giggles.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited October 2014
    Hugh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Hugh said:

    kle4 said:

    Hugh said:

    DavidL said:

    I stopped reading 9 early on when I came across the following sentence:

    "Between 2003 and 2007 the deficit rose, but at 3.2% of GDP a year it was manageable."

    A 3.2% deficit at the peak of an unsustainable boom was "manageable". It would make you weep. Labour and their supporters have so much to learn.

    Public spending or deficit didn't cause the global economic crisis, private sector bankers did.

    Tories have peddled the myth as cover for ideological cuts and shrinking the State.

    It also means Gideon and Co have failed to address our real economic problems, like our rotten banks and private sector big business, as well as abject Tory failure on the deficit.
    I remain confused - if deficits are not in themselves bad if they are manageable, what does it matter that the Tories failed to reduce it, and if we are to condemn them for that failure (I do), presumably we should have had much harsher cuts or tax rises, as growth alone would not cover it. Labour would not sanction the former, and electorally would probably be cagey on the latter, so while I could criticise the Tories for failing on the deficit, the opposition cannot if they want to keep to the line about how harsh the cuts have been, so it can only be individuals and fringe groups making that argument, and who will have to condemn Ed M when he starts cutting too.
    The deficit wasn't a problem pre-crash. It only became a problem after the private sector bankers wrecked the global economy.

    That's why the Tory failure on the deficit and economy / living standards is so serious.

    Spending money on public services didn't cause our economic problems, the bankers who caused the global crisis, and politicians like Cameron and Osborne who failed to learn lessons from it, are the ones to blame.

    It wasn't a problem if you believed the hype that Gordon Brown had abolished the business cycle.

    Once it became clear that he hadn't, in 2008, then the deficit became a problem.

    The global crash the private sector / bankers caused wasn't part of the ordinary business "cycle". It was a once in a lifetime economic catastrophe.
    Jeez, and there was Labour in the 70's going to the IMF too.... just how many more once in a lifetime events can I look forward to when Labour are in power?

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/11484844-b565-11df-9af8-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3Gj07F2Yl
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @TSE

    My offer to you to extend your stake is also open!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,718
    I just got off a plane, so very disappointed to not see another crossover!
  • Sean_F said:

    Hugh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Hugh said:

    kle4 said:

    Hugh said:

    DavidL said:

    I stopped reading 9 early on when I came across the following sentence:

    "Between 2003 and 2007 the deficit rose, but at 3.2% of GDP a year it was manageable."

    A 3.2% deficit at the peak of an unsustainable boom was "manageable". It would make you weep. Labour and their supporters have so much to learn.

    Public spending or deficit didn't cause the global economic crisis, private sector bankers did.

    Tories have peddled the myth as cover for ideological cuts and shrinking the State.

    It also means Gideon and Co have failed to address our real economic problems, like our rotten banks and private sector big business, as well as abject Tory failure on the deficit.
    I remain confused - if deficits are not in themselves bad if they are manageable, what does it matter that the Tories failed to reduce it, and if we are to condemn them for that failure (I do), presumably we should have had much harsher cuts or tax rises, as growth alone would not cover it. Labour would not sanction the former, and electorally would probably be cagey on the latter, so while I could criticise the Tories for failing on the deficit, the opposition cannot if they want to keep to the line about how harsh the cuts have been, so it can only be individuals and fringe groups making that argument, and who will have to condemn Ed M when he starts cutting too.
    The deficit wasn't a problem pre-crash. It only became a problem after the private sector bankers wrecked the global economy.

    That's why the Tory failure on the deficit and economy / living standards is so serious.

    Spending money on public services didn't cause our economic problems, the bankers who caused the global crisis, and politicians like Cameron and Osborne who failed to learn lessons from it, are the ones to blame.

    It wasn't a problem if you believed the hype that Gordon Brown had abolished the business cycle.

    Once it became clear that he hadn't, in 2008, then the deficit became a problem.

    The global crash the private sector / bankers caused wasn't part of the ordinary business "cycle". It was a once in a lifetime economic catastrophe.

    Recessions happen. It's foolish for any government to build it's fiscal policy on the assumption that this will never be the case.

    You seem to think that a cabal of businessmen decided to engineer a crash for shit and giggles.
    That's exactly what they did PURELY to spite Gordon Brown for so bravely abolishing boom and bust.
  • RobD said:

    I just got off a plane, so very disappointed to not see another crossover!

    There was kinda a crossover today

    Greens outpolling the Lib Dems.

    The Lib Dems now 5th in the polls (well a poll)
  • isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I wish UKIP would stop copying the policies of the Tory's EU headbangers... so unoriginal.
    Shall we form our own Tory party?

    Free of headbangers and traitorous pig dogs
    Done - as for the name, I say "The UK pleasantly moist Conservative party". With Frances Pym and Ken Clarke as honourary patrons.
    And Matthew Parris as patron as well.
    He'd be our spin king, Mad Matt Parris would have the kippers back in their sandy box.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,947
    SeanT said:

    Talking of property prices in London, elderly pb-ers, such as me, will recall that the tyre garage next to my Camden flat has been undergoing transformation into residential development for the last 60,000 years, sorry, 5 years (which, I believe, is longer than it took the Italians to build the entire and exquisite Renaissance city centre of Pienza)

    There's a tyre garage down the road on the west side of Regents Park (park road) that has similarly been re-developed.

    An interesting location in that it has the Regent's canal (rats!) and the Metropolitan line (noise!) on the doorstep.

    Odd too that we once needed tyre-garages!



  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    murali_s said:

    O/T Anthropogenic Global Warming

    September 2014 comes in (as widely expected) the warmest September ever recorded according to NOAA (following August 2014 which was the warmest August ever recorded).

    The current year to-date is the warmest YTD ever recorded. It's now quite likely that 2014 will be the warmest year ever recorded globally.

    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2014/9

    Global Warming? What Global Warming?

    In the East Midlands (being away from the moderating marine effect) we often go to -1 in winter. Last year we hardly had a frost.

    Global warming? Should have got on with it years ago! Saves flying south for the winter.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,751
    Hugh said:

    philiph said:

    Hugh said:

    Blaming the bankers for the recession is deranged
    there has been endless commentariat wittering about "the bankers", which has often descended into the politics of envy


    Lol.

    Ohhh, those poor bankers.

    They and they alone, not spending on public services, caused the world economy to crash.

    Regulate and tax them until the pips squeek. Then it won't happen again.

    Cameron's pathetic crawling to the bankers in the EU by vetoing a very mild measure like the Robin Hood tax shows where Tory allegiances lie. With bankers and big business, not ordinary people.

    Ahh yes, the Robin Hood tax, a neat way of moving a few Billion from the UK economy into EU coffers.

    Or moving billions from the pockets of bankers who caused the crash to the pockets of the ordinary hard workers who bailed them out.
    FTT is not a tax on banks or bankers' salaries/bonuses but on transactions. It is like VAT and will be paid by the person for whose benefit the transaction is done I.e. The person saving for a pension or someone saving in a stocks and shares ISA.

    The ordinary hard workers saving for their future will be the ones hit by this tax. But who cares about them, eh Hugh?
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Sean_F said:

    Hugh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Hugh said:

    kle4 said:

    Hugh said:

    DavidL said:

    I stopped reading 9 early on when I came across the following sentence:

    "Between 2003 and 2007 the deficit rose, but at 3.2% of GDP a year it was manageable."

    A 3.2% deficit at the peak of an unsustainable boom was "manageable". It would make you weep. Labour and their supporters have so much to learn.

    Public spending or deficit didn't cause the global economic crisis, private sector bankers did.

    Tories have peddled the myth as cover for ideological cuts and shrinking the State.

    It also means Gideon and Co have failed to address our real economic problems, like our rotten banks and private sector big business, as well as abject Tory failure on the deficit.
    The deficit wasn't a problem pre-crash. It only became a problem after the private sector bankers wrecked the global economy.

    That's why the Tory failure on the deficit and economy / living standards is so serious.

    Spending money on public services didn't cause our economic problems, the bankers who caused the global crisis, and politicians like Cameron and Osborne who failed to learn lessons from it, are the ones to blame.

    It wasn't a problem if you believed the hype that Gordon Brown had abolished the business cycle.

    Once it became clear that he hadn't, in 2008, then the deficit became a problem.

    The global crash the private sector / bankers caused wasn't part of the ordinary business "cycle". It was a once in a lifetime economic catastrophe.

    Recessions happen. It's foolish for any government to build it's fiscal policy on the assumption that this will never be the case.

    You seem to think that a cabal of businessmen decided to engineer a crash for shit and giggles.
    Recessions happen cyclically.

    Sudden massive global crashes aren't part of that cycle, they are one-offs caused by systemic flaws.

    The Tories have failed to address those systemic flaws, instead preferring to use the crash as an excuse for ideologically motivated pro big business politics and cuts to public services.
  • Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I think the electorate is divided between those who vote UKIP, and those who will vote UKIP.
    There's a sizeable third group. Those who will never vote Ukip in a million years.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,706
    Omnium said:

    SeanT said:

    Talking of property prices in London, elderly pb-ers, such as me, will recall that the tyre garage next to my Camden flat has been undergoing transformation into residential development for the last 60,000 years, sorry, 5 years (which, I believe, is longer than it took the Italians to build the entire and exquisite Renaissance city centre of Pienza)

    There's a tyre garage down the road on the west side of Regents Park (park road) that has similarly been re-developed.

    An interesting location in that it has the Regent's canal (rats!) and the Metropolitan line (noise!) on the doorstep.

    Odd too that we once needed tyre-garages!



    An interesting location in that it has the Regent's canal (rats!) and the Metropolitan line (rats and noise!) on the doorstep, is I think more accurate.

    I thought the tubes were well known for rodents.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    philiph said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Talking of property prices in London, elderly pb-ers, such as me, will recall that the tyre garage next to my Camden flat has been undergoing transformation into residential development for the last 60,000 years, sorry, 5 years (which, I believe, is longer than it took the Italians to build the entire and exquisite Renaissance city centre of Pienza)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pienza



    FFFFFFFFS.

    Anyway, my new neighbour, as it approaches completion, has a suitably ridiculous new name, Solstice Point.

    The development was meant to be affordable housing but - *cough* - this concept got lost somewhere in the last half decade as London boomed once again.

    Ergo the flats are on sale on the open market. And how much will a small 1 bed flat in "Solstice Point" cost you?

    £750,000

    http://search.knightfrank.co.uk/krd140916

    What this means on a larger scale I dunno. It's great for me as my flat zooms in value (even as my stocks and shares collapse). But I fear this kind of pricing can only fuel envy of London, resentment of London, and the increasing division of the nation.

    F*ck it, if they have a revolution I will sell and move to A CASTLE on the Costa Vicentina.

    The next kick out against the elite will be the trafficking of social housing residents out of zones 1 & 2 and to the suburbs.. it's already happening, and people aren't happy
    Where do the Elite hold the policy and planning meetings required to be so effective and cohesive?
    Maybe something like JournoList.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Cyclefree said:

    Hugh said:

    philiph said:

    Hugh said:

    Blaming the bankers for the recession is deranged
    there has been endless commentariat wittering about "the bankers", which has often descended into the politics of envy


    Lol.

    Ohhh, those poor bankers.

    They and they alone, not spending on public services, caused the world economy to crash.

    Regulate and tax them until the pips squeek. Then it won't happen again.

    Cameron's pathetic crawling to the bankers in the EU by vetoing a very mild measure like the Robin Hood tax shows where Tory allegiances lie. With bankers and big business, not ordinary people.

    Ahh yes, the Robin Hood tax, a neat way of moving a few Billion from the UK economy into EU coffers.

    Or moving billions from the pockets of bankers who caused the crash to the pockets of the ordinary hard workers who bailed them out.
    FTT is not a tax on banks or bankers' salaries/bonuses but on transactions. It is like VAT and will be paid by the person for whose benefit the transaction is done I.e. The person saving for a pension or someone saving in a stocks and shares ISA.

    The ordinary hard workers saving for their future will be the ones hit by this tax. But who cares about them, eh Hugh?
    Codswallop.

    As if ordinary folk haven't suffered enough already, from multi-billion bailouts for bankers who caused the deficit and continue as before, to austerity and cuts, plummeting living standards, and rock bottom interest rates.

    A Robin Hood tax is a very very moderate move in the right direction. But even that was too much for Big Business and Bankers Champion David Cameron.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,706
    Hugh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Hugh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Hugh said:

    kle4 said:

    Hugh said:

    DavidL said:

    I stopped reading 9 early on when I came across the following sentence:

    "Between 2003 and 2007 the deficit rose, but at 3.2% of GDP a year it was manageable."

    A 3.2% deficit at the peak of an unsustainable boom was "manageable". It would make you weep. Labour and their supporters have so much to learn.

    Public spending or deficit didn't cause the global economic crisis, private sector bankers did.

    Tories have peddled the myth as cover for ideological cuts and shrinking the State.

    It also means Gideon and Co have failed to address our real economic problems, like our rotten banks and private sector big business, as well as abject Tory failure on the deficit.
    The deficit wasn't a problem pre-crash. It only became a problem after the private sector bankers wrecked the global economy.

    That's why the Tory failure on the deficit and economy / living standards is so serious.

    Spending money on public services didn't cause our economic problems, the bankers who caused the global crisis, and politicians like Cameron and Osborne who failed to learn lessons from it, are the ones to blame.

    It wasn't a problem if you believed the hype that Gordon Brown had abolished the business cycle.

    Once it became clear that he hadn't, in 2008, then the deficit became a problem.

    The global crash the private sector / bankers caused wasn't part of the ordinary business "cycle". It was a once in a lifetime economic catastrophe.

    Recessions happen. It's foolish for any government to build it's fiscal policy on the assumption that this will never be the case.

    You seem to think that a cabal of businessmen decided to engineer a crash for shit and giggles.
    Recessions happen cyclically.

    Sudden massive global crashes aren't part of that cycle, they are one-offs caused by systemic flaws.

    The Tories have failed to address those systemic flaws, instead preferring to use the crash as an excuse for ideologically motivated pro big business politics and cuts to public services.
    On a domestic borrowing front they have. Tried applying for a mortgage recently?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Talking of property prices in London, elderly pb-ers, such as me, will recall that the tyre garage next to my Camden flat has been undergoing transformation into residential development for the last 60,000 years, sorry, 5 years (which, I believe, is longer than it took the Italians to build the entire and exquisite Renaissance city centre of Pienza)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pienza



    FFFFFFFFS.

    Anyway, my new neighbour, as it approaches completion, has a suitably ridiculous new name, Solstice Point.

    The development was meant to be affordable housing but - *cough* - this concept got lost somewhere in the last half decade as London boomed once again.

    Ergo the flats are on sale on the open market. And how much will a small 1 bed flat in "Solstice Point" cost you?

    £750,000

    http://search.knightfrank.co.uk/krd140916

    What this means on a larger scale I dunno. It's great for me as my flat zooms in value (even as my stocks and shares collapse). But I fear this kind of pricing can only fuel envy of London, resentment of London, and the increasing division of the nation.

    F*ck it, if they have a revolution I will sell and move to A CASTLE on the Costa Vicentina.

    if it's big, round inflatable and looks a bit like a bubble. it's probably a bubble.
    When I was first thinking of investing my money in London property (having NEVER had money before, apart from day to day cash to spend on drugs, ink, booze, hookers, interesting new fiction and curry) a lot of people on pb told me to rent, as they said "London property will crash". This was in 2009.

    In the end, I bought my small-but-fairly-cute one bed flat here in Camden for £325,000, mainly cause I wanted to OWN, partly because I thought it might be a good investment. I had read a Bank of India report which said that over the last 50 years - i.e. since the 1960s - the London property market was the best investment IN THE WORLD - better than any other property market, better than gold, shares, oil, wheat futures, whatever.

    As things stand, judging by present prices here at the posher end of Camden (which yearns but fails to be Primrose Hill) my flat is worth £550k or more. My investment has, therefore, almost doubled in value in five years.

    Yeah, of course it's a bubble. Yet it's a bubble that never quite bursts. And even when it bursts, it blows right up again. It is remarkable.

    It is also a self-fulfilling prophecy of course. The more people worldwide believe in London property, the more they are prepared to invest in it.




    A bubble expands most rapidly before it pops, and there is a great prick called Ed coming along to pop it!

    I suspect even at the worst you would still be up on 2009.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Already cutting prices at the top end of the London market. New taxes, non Dom restrictions and rate rises coming, there will be no massive sterling devaluation to prop up prices this time.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,947
    philiph said:

    Omnium said:

    SeanT said:

    Talking of property prices in London, elderly pb-ers, such as me, will recall that the tyre garage next to my Camden flat has been undergoing transformation into residential development for the last 60,000 years, sorry, 5 years (which, I believe, is longer than it took the Italians to build the entire and exquisite Renaissance city centre of Pienza)

    There's a tyre garage down the road on the west side of Regents Park (park road) that has similarly been re-developed.

    An interesting location in that it has the Regent's canal (rats!) and the Metropolitan line (noise!) on the doorstep.

    Odd too that we once needed tyre-garages!



    An interesting location in that it has the Regent's canal (rats!) and the Metropolitan line (rats and noise!) on the doorstep, is I think more accurate.

    I thought the tubes were well known for rodents.
    The tube is plagued by mice generally. I've never seen a rat whilst travelling on the tube.

  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    edited October 2014
    It's the system that needed fixing, not the people

    Well, obviously.

    The system needs to ensure these people in the Financial Sector who caused the crash don't get the obscene rewards, power, influence they currently have.

    It needs to ensure they don't monopolise wealth at the expense of ordinary people like they currently do, by paying more tax for example.

    It needs to ensure there is more stability inherent in the system by outright banning certain forms of trading.

    Unfortunately, our current Government is nothing but the political wing of the financial sector and big business, so - dangerously - none of this has happened. The General Election can't come soon enough.


  • Hugh said:

    It's the system that needed fixing, not the people

    Well, obviously.

    The system needs to ensure these people in the Financial Sector who caused the crash don't get the obscene rewards, power, influence they currently have.

    It needs to ensure they don't monopolise wealth at the expense of ordinary people like they currently do, by paying more tax for example.

    It needs to ensure there is more stability inherent in the system by outright banning certain forms of trading.

    Unfortunately, our current Government is nothing but the political wing of the financial sector and big business, so - dangerously - none of this has happened. The General Election can't come soon enough.


    Evidence of yet more history being deleted 1997-2010
  • Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I think the electorate is divided between those who vote UKIP, and those who will vote UKIP.
    There's a sizeable third group. Those who will never vote Ukip in a million years.
    Yup - the new party being launched by TSE and me, welcome to the 3rd way with the UK pleasantly moist Conservative party.

    No EU head-bangers allowed in!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,448
    Hugh said:



    Codswallop.

    As if ordinary folk haven't suffered enough already, from multi-billion bailouts for bankers who caused the deficit and continue as before, to austerity and cuts, plummeting living standards, and rock bottom interest rates.

    A Robin Hood tax is a very very moderate move in the right direction. But even that was too much for Big Business and Bankers Champion David Cameron.

    I have no great issue with an FTT. After all, we have stamp duty on share transactions on the UK, and - frankly - encouraging investment over (broadly defined) speculation is probably no bad thing.

    That being said, people who expect FTTs or "Robin Hood" taxes to raise a great deal of money are deluded. Because:

    1.These are easiest taxes in the world to legally avoid because once a transaction takes place off-shore, then the legal ability of HM Government (or the EU) to tax it goes rapidly to zero.

    2. It's like slapping a 50 quid charge on a packet of cigarettes: it will cause the volume sold to decline markedly. If you make it so you have to pay (say) GBP100 on every personal share transaction, then you'll trade less often. This means less speculative activity, but also lower than expected tax revenues and also less liquidity (which means firms will choose raise money in alternative markets like the US, and that savers will face wider spreads when they are buying or selling).

    Finally, the EU FTT is currently looking so denuded that it might as well not happen. The virtual elimination (which will probably end up total) on derivatives is a boon for inventors of 'financial products', while traded loans (zero % FTT) will largely replace bonds.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,448
    Hugh said:

    Blaming the bankers for the recession is deranged
    there has been endless commentariat wittering about "the bankers", which has often descended into the politics of envy


    Lol.

    Ohhh, those poor bankers.

    They and they alone, not spending on public services, caused the world economy to crash.

    Regulate and tax them until the pips squeek. Then it won't happen again.

    Cameron's pathetic crawling to the bankers in the EU by vetoing a very mild measure like the Robin Hood tax shows where Tory allegiances lie. With bankers and big business, not ordinary people.

    As I'm rather stupid, could you just remind me which institutions HM Government (and the tax payer) bailed out during the financial crisis?

    And could you also remind me *who* exactly was 'bailed out'? Who were the biggest winners from the 'bail out'?
  • isamisam Posts: 42,643

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I think the electorate is divided between those who vote UKIP, and those who will vote UKIP.
    There's a sizeable third group. Those who will never vote Ukip in a million years.
    Yup - the new party being launched by TSE and me, welcome to the 3rd way with the UK pleasantly moist Conservative party.

    No EU head-bangers allowed in!
    You could call it "New Labour"!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,448
    SeanT said:

    Talking of property prices in London, elderly pb-ers, such as me, will recall that the tyre garage next to my Camden flat has been undergoing transformation into residential development for the last 60,000 years, sorry, 5 years (which, I believe, is longer than it took the Italians to build the entire and exquisite Renaissance city centre of Pienza)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pienza



    FFFFFFFFS.

    Anyway, my new neighbour, as it approaches completion, has a suitably ridiculous new name, Solstice Point.

    The development was meant to be affordable housing but - *cough* - this concept got lost somewhere in the last half decade as London boomed once again.

    Ergo the flats are on sale on the open market. And how much will a small 1 bed flat in "Solstice Point" cost you?

    £750,000

    http://search.knightfrank.co.uk/krd140916

    What this means on a larger scale I dunno. It's great for me as my flat zooms in value (even as my stocks and shares collapse). But I fear this kind of pricing can only fuel envy of London, resentment of London, and the increasing division of the nation.

    F*ck it, if they have a revolution I will sell and move to A CASTLE on the Costa Vicentina.

    There is a devlopment (The Lexington) of two bedroom flats, at the grottiest point on the Finchley Road, and equidistant from Golders Green and Finchley Road tubes (and therefore near nowhere at all) being sold for 750k.

    I will not be buying.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I think the electorate is divided between those who vote UKIP, and those who will vote UKIP.
    There's a sizeable third group. Those who will never vote Ukip in a million years.
    What about those that will vote Ukip and then regret it for 5 years as Ed is PM and there is no referendum and more immigration.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2014
    rcs1000 said:

    Hugh said:



    Codswallop.

    As if ordinary folk haven't suffered enough already, from multi-billion bailouts for bankers who caused the deficit and continue as before, to austerity and cuts, plummeting living standards, and rock bottom interest rates.

    A Robin Hood tax is a very very moderate move in the right direction. But even that was too much for Big Business and Bankers Champion David Cameron.

    I have no great issue with an FTT. After all, we have stamp duty on share transactions on the UK, and - frankly - encouraging investment over (broadly defined) speculation is probably no bad thing.

    That being said, people who expect FTTs or "Robin Hood" taxes to raise a great deal of money are deluded. Because:

    1.These are easiest taxes in the world to legally avoid because once a transaction takes place off-shore, then the legal ability of HM Government (or the EU) to tax it goes rapidly to zero.

    2. It's like slapping a 50 quid charge on a packet of cigarettes: it will cause the volume sold to decline markedly. If you make it so you have to pay (say) GBP100 on every personal share transaction, then you'll trade less often. This means less speculative activity, but also lower than expected tax revenues and also less liquidity (which means firms will choose raise money in alternative markets like the US, and that savers will face wider spreads when they are buying or selling).

    Finally, the EU FTT is currently looking so denuded that it might as well not happen. The virtual elimination (which will probably end up total) on derivatives is a boon for inventors of 'financial products', while traded loans (zero % FTT) will largely replace bonds.
    And what about if there's a global agreement on a transactions tax and various other wealth taxes, thus removing the threat of "we'll move elsewhere!!!!11" ransoms from the rich.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,643
    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I think the electorate is divided between those who vote UKIP, and those who will vote UKIP.
    There's a sizeable third group. Those who will never vote Ukip in a million years.
    What about those that will vote Ukip and then regret it for 5 years as Ed is PM and there is no referendum and more immigration.
    They can ask those who voted for Cameron in 2010 how they coped with the let down
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,448
    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I think the electorate is divided between those who vote UKIP, and those who will vote UKIP.
    There's a sizeable third group. Those who will never vote Ukip in a million years.
    What about those that will vote Ukip and then regret it for 5 years as Ed is PM and there is no referendum and more immigration.
    Many who vote UKIP will vote it, and be pleased that - for the first time in years - they are voting for someone who hears their concerns, irrespective of who ends up in number 10.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,448
    Danny565 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Hugh said:



    Codswallop.

    As if ordinary folk haven't suffered enough already, from multi-billion bailouts for bankers who caused the deficit and continue as before, to austerity and cuts, plummeting living standards, and rock bottom interest rates.

    A Robin Hood tax is a very very moderate move in the right direction. But even that was too much for Big Business and Bankers Champion David Cameron.

    I have no great issue with an FTT. After all, we have stamp duty on share transactions on the UK, and - frankly - encouraging investment over (broadly defined) speculation is probably no bad thing.

    That being said, people who expect FTTs or "Robin Hood" taxes to raise a great deal of money are deluded. Because:

    1.These are easiest taxes in the world to legally avoid because once a transaction takes place off-shore, then the legal ability of HM Government (or the EU) to tax it goes rapidly to zero.

    2. It's like slapping a 50 quid charge on a packet of cigarettes: it will cause the volume sold to decline markedly. If you make it so you have to pay (say) GBP100 on every personal share transaction, then you'll trade less often. This means less speculative activity, but also lower than expected tax revenues and also less liquidity (which means firms will choose raise money in alternative markets like the US, and that savers will face wider spreads when they are buying or selling).

    Finally, the EU FTT is currently looking so denuded that it might as well not happen. The virtual elimination (which will probably end up total) on derivatives is a boon for inventors of 'financial products', while traded loans (zero % FTT) will largely replace bonds.
    And what about if there's a global agreement on a transactions tax and various other wealth taxes, thus removing the "we'll move elsewhere!!!!11" ransoms from the rich.
    The incentive to be the one country in the world that does not do sign up to the FTT would be overwhelming. You'd dominate financial market trading.

    Essentially, it would be in the interest of every country to be Ireland. (In the way Ireland undercuts everyone on corporation tax.)
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2014
    rcs1000 said:

    Danny565 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Hugh said:



    Codswallop.

    As if ordinary folk haven't suffered enough already, from multi-billion bailouts for bankers who caused the deficit and continue as before, to austerity and cuts, plummeting living standards, and rock bottom interest rates.

    A Robin Hood tax is a very very moderate move in the right direction. But even that was too much for Big Business and Bankers Champion David Cameron.

    I have no great issue with an FTT. After all, we have stamp duty on share transactions on the UK, and - frankly - encouraging investment over (broadly defined) speculation is probably no bad thing.

    That being said, people who expect FTTs or "Robin Hood" taxes to raise a great deal of money are deluded. Because:

    1.These are easiest taxes in the world to legally avoid because once a transaction takes place off-shore, then the legal ability of HM Government (or the EU) to tax it goes rapidly to zero.

    2. It's like slapping a 50 quid charge on a packet of cigarettes: it will cause the volume sold to decline markedly. If you make it so you have to pay (say) GBP100 on every personal share transaction, then you'll trade less often. This means less speculative activity, but also lower than expected tax revenues and also less liquidity (which means firms will choose raise money in alternative markets like the US, and that savers will face wider spreads when they are buying or selling).

    Finally, the EU FTT is currently looking so denuded that it might as well not happen. The virtual elimination (which will probably end up total) on derivatives is a boon for inventors of 'financial products', while traded loans (zero % FTT) will largely replace bonds.
    And what about if there's a global agreement on a transactions tax and various other wealth taxes, thus removing the "we'll move elsewhere!!!!11" ransoms from the rich.
    The incentive to be the one country in the world that does not do sign up to the FTT would be overwhelming. You'd dominate financial market trading.

    Essentially, it would be in the interest of every country to be Ireland. (In the way Ireland undercuts everyone on corporation tax.)
    And what if the international community applied severe trading sanctions to any country that refused to comply?

    These problems can ALWAYS be gotten round if there's the political will to do it, and the people putting forward these bogus arguments about how it wouldn't be "possible" to force the rich to cough up some of their undeserved money are usually coincidentally the very people who would stand to lose from such policies.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,448
    Danny565 said:


    And what if the international community applied severe trading sanctions to any country that refused to comply?

    These problems can ALWAYS be gotten round if there's the political will to do it, and the people putting forward these bogus arguments about how it wouldn't be "possible" to force the rich to cough up some of their undeserved money are usually coincidentally the very people who would stand to lose from such policies.

    Right. So if Saudi Arabia, home of 14% of the world's oil production, and more than 20% of its exports, decided it could do with a second source of revenue, how would you apply sanctions?
  • SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Talking of property prices in London, elderly pb-ers, such as me, will recall that the tyre garage next to my Camden flat has been undergoing transformation into residential development for the last 60,000 years, sorry, 5 years (which, I believe, is longer than it took the Italians to build the entire and exquisite Renaissance city centre of Pienza)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pienza



    FFFFFFFFS.

    Anyway, my new neighbour, as it approaches completion, has a suitably ridiculous new name, Solstice Point.

    The development was meant to be affordable housing but - *cough* - this concept got lost somewhere in the last half decade as London boomed once again.

    Ergo the flats are on sale on the open market. And how much will a small 1 bed flat in "Solstice Point" cost you?

    £750,000

    http://search.knightfrank.co.uk/krd140916

    What this means on a larger scale I dunno. It's great for me as my flat zooms in value (even as my stocks and shares collapse). But I fear this kind of pricing can only fuel envy of London, resentment of London, and the increasing division of the nation.

    F*ck it, if they have a revolution I will sell and move to A CASTLE on the Costa Vicentina.

    There is a devlopment (The Lexington) of two bedroom flats, at the grottiest point on the Finchley Road, and equidistant from Golders Green and Finchley Road tubes (and therefore near nowhere at all) being sold for 750k.

    I will not be buying.
    The best place to buy in London right now is probably right on the edges, or just beyond. Places like Tottenham (big new investment from Spurs FC), or Hounslow.
    Three-bed terraced houses in my area of Ilford North going for £360 K.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,448

    rcs1000 said:


    I have no great issue with an FTT. After all, we have stamp duty on share transactions on the UK, and - frankly - encouraging investment over (broadly defined) speculation is probably no bad thing.

    That being said, people who expect FTTs or "Robin Hood" taxes to raise a great deal of money are deluded. Because:

    1.These are easiest taxes in the world to legally avoid because once a transaction takes place off-shore, then the legal ability of HM Government (or the EU) to tax it goes rapidly to zero.

    2. It's like slapping a 50 quid charge on a packet of cigarettes: it will cause the volume sold to decline markedly. If you make it so you have to pay (say) GBP100 on every personal share transaction, then you'll trade less often. This means less speculative activity, but also lower than expected tax revenues and also less liquidity (which means firms will choose raise money in alternative markets like the US, and that savers will face wider spreads when they are buying or selling).

    Finally, the EU FTT is currently looking so denuded that it might as well not happen. The virtual elimination (which will probably end up total) on derivatives is a boon for inventors of 'financial products', while traded loans (zero % FTT) will largely replace bonds.

    There seems to be a very fine line between "clamping down on the speculators" (good!) and "slapping down the people who bring us liquidity" (bad!). I haven't come across anyone who seemed to have a good answer to the problem of where the good stops and the bad begins.

    If you're so skeptical about the effectiveness of FTT - flaws that are well-known and well-understood by the policymakers - why do you think it's on the horizon at all? As a fig-leaf to make it look like "something is being done"? Or that the original intentions for something powerful were there, but a lowest-agreeable-denominator fudge was reached?
    I very much doubt any FTT with greater scope than our stamp duty will be brought into existence.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I think the electorate is divided between those who vote UKIP, and those who will vote UKIP.
    There's a sizeable third group. Those who will never vote Ukip in a million years.
    What about those that will vote Ukip and then regret it for 5 years as Ed is PM and there is no referendum and more immigration.
    They can ask those who voted for Cameron in 2010 how they coped with the let down
    Someone fetch some ice to apply to that burn.

    (It's juvenile, but that was such a cracking line)
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Talking of property prices in London, elderly pb-ers, such as me, will recall that the tyre garage next to my Camden flat has been undergoing transformation into residential development for the last 60,000 years, sorry, 5 years (which, I believe, is longer than it took the Italians to build the entire and exquisite Renaissance city centre of Pienza)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pienza



    FFFFFFFFS.

    Anyway, my new neighbour, as it approaches completion, has a suitably ridiculous new name, Solstice Point.

    The development was meant to be affordable housing but - *cough* - this concept got lost somewhere in the last half decade as London boomed once again.

    Ergo the flats are on sale on the open market. And how much will a small 1 bed flat in "Solstice Point" cost you?

    £750,000

    http://search.knightfrank.co.uk/krd140916

    What this means on a larger scale I dunno. It's great for me as my flat zooms in value (even as my stocks and shares collapse). But I fear this kind of pricing can only fuel envy of London, resentment of London, and the increasing division of the nation.

    F*ck it, if they have a revolution I will sell and move to A CASTLE on the Costa Vicentina.

    There is a devlopment (The Lexington) of two bedroom flats, at the grottiest point on the Finchley Road, and equidistant from Golders Green and Finchley Road tubes (and therefore near nowhere at all) being sold for 750k.

    I will not be buying.
    The best place to buy in London right now is probably right on the edges, or just beyond. Places like Tottenham (big new investment from Spurs FC), or Hounslow.
    I remember walking, one summer Saturday night, years ago, a girl I'd picked up at the old Tottenham Royal Dance Hall. I had to walk home to Hackney as I'd spent most of my pocket money and the all night trolley buses were a sham. Tottenham then was a sea of not quite slums interspersed with a diamond or gem of a building, here and there. Horrible in it's sameness.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    rcs1000 said:

    Danny565 said:


    And what if the international community applied severe trading sanctions to any country that refused to comply?

    These problems can ALWAYS be gotten round if there's the political will to do it, and the people putting forward these bogus arguments about how it wouldn't be "possible" to force the rich to cough up some of their undeserved money are usually coincidentally the very people who would stand to lose from such policies.

    Right. So if Saudi Arabia, home of 14% of the world's oil production, and more than 20% of its exports, decided it could do with a second source of revenue, how would you apply sanctions?
    You apply the sanctions, be willing to take the short-term hit to your economy (especially when it comes with the reward of immediately increased tax revenues), and assume (probably correctly) that Saudi Arabia will be the one to blink first when faced with a collapse in its exports.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited October 2014
    @Hugh

    'Recessions happen cyclically.'

    Had you forgotten one of your heroes? 'No more boom or bust'
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,448
    Danny565 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Danny565 said:


    And what if the international community applied severe trading sanctions to any country that refused to comply?

    These problems can ALWAYS be gotten round if there's the political will to do it, and the people putting forward these bogus arguments about how it wouldn't be "possible" to force the rich to cough up some of their undeserved money are usually coincidentally the very people who would stand to lose from such policies.

    Right. So if Saudi Arabia, home of 14% of the world's oil production, and more than 20% of its exports, decided it could do with a second source of revenue, how would you apply sanctions?
    You apply the sanctions, be willing to take the short-term hit to your economy (especially when it comes with the reward of immediately increased tax revenues), and assume (probably correctly) that Saudi Arabia will be the one to blink first when faced with a collapse in its exports.
    And you think you can persuade every single country on earth not to take the massive benefit of sanctions busting? Good luck.
  • oldnatoldnat Posts: 136

    isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I wish UKIP would stop copying the policies of the Tory's EU headbangers... so unoriginal.
    Shall we form our own Tory party?

    Free of headbangers and traitorous pig dogs
    What? All three of you?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2014
    rcs1000 said:

    Danny565 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Danny565 said:


    And what if the international community applied severe trading sanctions to any country that refused to comply?

    These problems can ALWAYS be gotten round if there's the political will to do it, and the people putting forward these bogus arguments about how it wouldn't be "possible" to force the rich to cough up some of their undeserved money are usually coincidentally the very people who would stand to lose from such policies.

    Right. So if Saudi Arabia, home of 14% of the world's oil production, and more than 20% of its exports, decided it could do with a second source of revenue, how would you apply sanctions?
    You apply the sanctions, be willing to take the short-term hit to your economy (especially when it comes with the reward of immediately increased tax revenues), and assume (probably correctly) that Saudi Arabia will be the one to blink first when faced with a collapse in its exports.
    And you think you can persuade every single country on earth not to take the massive benefit of sanctions busting? Good luck.
    As I said, I totally concede it would need the agreement of most of the major economies in the world. But I believe some point within the next 10 years there's going to be a consensus that action like that needs to be done, since the main reason most countries have such big deficits is because the global super-rich think they're above paying taxes, and I (maybe over-optimistically) really don't think the poor and middle class in most countries are going to accept that public services and living standards should collapse just because it's too difficult to take on the super-rich. More standardised global (high) tax rates and international isolation of tax havens is inevitable.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:


    I have no great issue with an FTT. After all, we have stamp duty on share transactions on the UK, and - frankly - encouraging investment over (broadly defined) speculation is probably no bad thing.

    That being said, people who expect FTTs or "Robin Hood" taxes to raise a great deal of money are deluded. Because:

    1.These are easiest taxes in the world to legally avoid because once a transaction takes place off-shore, then the legal ability of HM Government (or the EU) to tax it goes rapidly to zero.

    2. It's like slapping a 50 quid charge on a packet of cigarettes: it will cause the volume sold to decline markedly. If you make it so you have to pay (say) GBP100 on every personal share transaction, then you'll trade less often. This means less speculative activity, but also lower than expected tax revenues and also less liquidity (which means firms will choose raise money in alternative markets like the US, and that savers will face wider spreads when they are buying or selling).

    Finally, the EU FTT is currently looking so denuded that it might as well not happen. The virtual elimination (which will probably end up total) on derivatives is a boon for inventors of 'financial products', while traded loans (zero % FTT) will largely replace bonds.

    There seems to be a very fine line between "clamping down on the speculators" (good!) and "slapping down the people who bring us liquidity" (bad!). I haven't come across anyone who seemed to have a good answer to the problem of where the good stops and the bad begins.

    If you're so skeptical about the effectiveness of FTT - flaws that are well-known and well-understood by the policymakers - why do you think it's on the horizon at all? As a fig-leaf to make it look like "something is being done"? Or that the original intentions for something powerful were there, but a lowest-agreeable-denominator fudge was reached?
    I very much doubt any FTT with greater scope than our stamp duty will be brought into existence.
    The FTT as proposed by the Eurozone is based on the asset being traded, not the jurisdiction.
    If a broker from USA buys a Siemens share in Singapore they are still liable to the FTT.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,448
    Thank you MBE for putting my argument much more eloquently than I could
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,448

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:


    I have no great issue with an FTT. After all, we have stamp duty on share transactions on the UK, and - frankly - encouraging investment over (broadly defined) speculation is probably no bad thing.

    That being said, people who expect FTTs or "Robin Hood" taxes to raise a great deal of money are deluded. Because:

    1.These are easiest taxes in the world to legally avoid because once a transaction takes place off-shore, then the legal ability of HM Government (or the EU) to tax it goes rapidly to zero.

    2. It's like slapping a 50 quid charge on a packet of cigarettes: it will cause the volume sold to decline markedly. If you make it so you have to pay (say) GBP100 on every personal share transaction, then you'll trade less often. This means less speculative activity, but also lower than expected tax revenues and also less liquidity (which means firms will choose raise money in alternative markets like the US, and that savers will face wider spreads when they are buying or selling).

    Finally, the EU FTT is currently looking so denuded that it might as well not happen. The virtual elimination (which will probably end up total) on derivatives is a boon for inventors of 'financial products', while traded loans (zero % FTT) will largely replace bonds.

    There seems to be a very fine line between "clamping down on the speculators" (good!) and "slapping down the people who bring us liquidity" (bad!). I haven't come across anyone who seemed to have a good answer to the problem of where the good stops and the bad begins.

    If you're so skeptical about the effectiveness of FTT - flaws that are well-known and well-understood by the policymakers - why do you think it's on the horizon at all? As a fig-leaf to make it look like "something is being done"? Or that the original intentions for something powerful were there, but a lowest-agreeable-denominator fudge was reached?
    I very much doubt any FTT with greater scope than our stamp duty will be brought into existence.
    The FTT as proposed by the Eurozone is based on the asset being traded, not the jurisdiction.
    If a broker from USA buys a Siemens share in Singapore they are still liable to the FTT.
    True and not true.

    It would be simply avoided, as ADRs today avoid stamp duty, by trading a certificate that allows the bearer to claim a share at a future point.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,937
    edited October 2014


    Three-bed terraced houses in my area of Ilford North going for £360 K.

    Hello Dr Prasannan, hope all is well with you.

    I was walking the terraced streets of Ilford last week, when a late middle-aged Indian lady noticed I looked impressed with her front garden. So I got given a little tour, and even a photospread of her (in her more glamorous days) and her garden (practically unchanged) in the Times magazine. Most impressive.

    I wondered if she is a gardening rival to your green-fingered mother.
    Yes, thanks all is well. Been working nearly a year in the W Midlands, but still visit Ilford at weekends. Are you from around there?

    As for your observation - interesting!

    Not sure if Redbridge in Bloom made it into the Times! Mum had to make do with a mention in the Ilford Recorder...
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Former Australian PM Gough Whitlam has died aged 98.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/21/gough-whitlam-dies-at-age-98
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,285
    Rod, Yes all over twitter now and Abbott just tweeted his condolonces. One of the best Australian postwar PMs. Full coverage here http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-21/gough-whitlam-dead/5828840
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    (FPT)

    rcs1000 said:

    The problem with the Greens is that they are a bunch nasty authoritarians who want to control our lives using the "environment" as a pretext.

    The Greens may or may not be nasty authoritarians (depending on one's definition or interpretation) but it is a reason, not a pretext. The ultimate authoritarian dictator is Mother Earth herself, who will cast us all into a cold dark dungeon of mass extinction if we're not careful. She has carefully and patiently stewed forests for hundreds of millions of years to provide us with coal and oil, yet we merrily squander much of it within a couple of hundred years with little more than a thought. And we cut down the rainforests, pollute the air, poison the sea, and send hundreds of species extinct.
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited October 2014
    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    Philip Davies to be the next traitorous pig dog?

    I agree with Nigel Farage on 'virtually everything' admits Tory MP

    Philip Davies MP for Shipley said that 'in an ideal world' Ukip and the Tories 'would not slit each other’s throats'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11175261/I-agree-with-Nigel-Farage-on-virtually-everything-admits-Tory-MP.html

    It's a catching disease...

    Mr Rosindell, a staunch Eurosceptic who has been Romford’s MP since 2001, said: “My views and Ukip’s views are not actually that far apart.

    “I do not really have any objections with their policies - it’s their delivery.

    “Standing across the country can only result in a Labour victory and Ed Miliband in No 10.”

    He added: “While I agree with Ukip on many things, I’m more Ukip than Ukip in some areas.

    “I’ve been arguing that we should not be part of the EU since long before Ukip even existed.”

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/havering_ukip_s_best_chance_of_general_election_success_in_london_1_3809806
    I think the electorate is divided between those who vote UKIP, and those who will vote UKIP.
    There's a sizeable third group. Those who will never vote Ukip in a million years.
    What about those that will vote Ukip and then regret it for 5 years as Ed is PM and there is no referendum and more immigration.
    Whoever is in power (Labour or Tory) there will be uncontrolled immigration (Barosso said as much yesterday) and the demand for an EU referendum will not subside just because Miliband refuses to hold one and given there will be two parties in opposition calling for it, I imagine the pressure will be quite intense especially as the rest of the EU move toward ever closer union. Denying the country the referendum only furthers people's desire to have one and advances the Eurosceptic cause

    That is of course if the Tories are genuine about a referendum and will continue to pursue one in opposition and are not just posturing around it again purely to extort votes out of unsuspecting Eurosceptics (well there must be a few left out there).
  • Danny565 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Danny565 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Danny565 said:


    And what if the international community applied severe trading sanctions to any country that refused to comply?

    These problems can ALWAYS be gotten round if there's the political will to do it, and the people putting forward these bogus arguments about how it wouldn't be "possible" to force the rich to cough up some of their undeserved money are usually coincidentally the very people who would stand to lose from such policies.

    Right. So if Saudi Arabia, home of 14% of the world's oil production, and more than 20% of its exports, decided it could do with a second source of revenue, how would you apply sanctions?
    You apply the sanctions, be willing to take the short-term hit to your economy (especially when it comes with the reward of immediately increased tax revenues), and assume (probably correctly) that Saudi Arabia will be the one to blink first when faced with a collapse in its exports.
    And you think you can persuade every single country on earth not to take the massive benefit of sanctions busting? Good luck.
    As I said, I totally concede it would need the agreement of most of the major economies in the world. But I believe some point within the next 10 years there's going to be a consensus that action like that needs to be done, since the main reason most countries have such big deficits is because the global super-rich think they're above paying taxes, and I (maybe over-optimistically) really don't think the poor and middle class in most countries are going to accept that public services and living standards should collapse just because it's too difficult to take on the super-rich. More standardised global (high) tax rates and international isolation of tax havens is inevitable.
    Don't hold your breath. That wealth belonging to the super rich that you so desperately want to get your hands on can buy an awful lot of politicians and countries to make sure you don't get your hands on it.
  • UKIP's Anthem for a Miliband Government

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3Kvu6Kgp88

    I do so love the irony of the songs origins
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,658
    edited October 2014
    I see the BBC are on their outrage soap box over the stupid UKIP song. Its racist you know, because a white man sings like a black man...but commissioning this kind of stuff is ok?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zLuGwQyLyE

    When will the likes of the BBC learn that just trying to smear UKIP as racist at every opportunity wont work.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited October 2014
    Number 3 looks like a great site...

    Polls all the way back to 1970.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    edited October 2014

    I see the BBC are on their outrage soap box over the stupid UKIP song.

    yep, it's definitely a stupid song.

    finding some other racist stuff on the bbc doesn't exonerate UKIP from having some racist members and fellow travellers though

    (edited to add "some". I certainly don't believe all UKIP members or supporters are racist. On the other hand, they don't exactly appear to have gone out of their way to shake off people holding those views)
  • I see the BBC are on their outrage soap box over the stupid UKIP song.

    yep, it's definitely a stupid song.

    finding some other racist stuff on the bbc doesn't exonerate UKIP from having some racist members and fellow travellers though

    (edited to add "some". I certainly don't believe all UKIP members or supporters are racist. On the other hand, they don't exactly appear to have gone out of their way to shake off people holding those views)
    So parties that support immigration policies that discriminate against people coming from Africa, Asia and the Americas do?
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    I see the BBC are on their outrage soap box over the stupid UKIP song.

    yep, it's definitely a stupid song.

    finding some other racist stuff on the bbc doesn't exonerate UKIP from having some racist members and fellow travellers though

    (edited to add "some". I certainly don't believe all UKIP members or supporters are racist. On the other hand, they don't exactly appear to have gone out of their way to shake off people holding those views)
    So parties that support immigration policies that discriminate against people coming from Africa, Asia and the Americas do?
    Are you advocating increasing immigration from Africa, Asia and the Americas in addition to that from the EU?
  • I see the BBC are on their outrage soap box over the stupid UKIP song.

    yep, it's definitely a stupid song.

    finding some other racist stuff on the bbc doesn't exonerate UKIP from having some racist members and fellow travellers though

    (edited to add "some". I certainly don't believe all UKIP members or supporters are racist. On the other hand, they don't exactly appear to have gone out of their way to shake off people holding those views)
    My point wasn't that UKIP may well have some racist fellow travellers, it is that screaming racist at everything they do or say doesn't work. Screaming racist at a bloody awful song, is just like the Daily Mail screaming immigrants to blame at every opportunity, people just switch off.

    They should be holding their policies up to the fire. I rarely, if ever, see UKIP challenged on their actual policies.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    I see the BBC are on their outrage soap box over the stupid UKIP song.

    yep, it's definitely a stupid song.

    finding some other racist stuff on the bbc doesn't exonerate UKIP from having some racist members and fellow travellers though

    (edited to add "some". I certainly don't believe all UKIP members or supporters are racist. On the other hand, they don't exactly appear to have gone out of their way to shake off people holding those views)
    My point wasn't that UKIP may well have some racist fellow travellers, it is that screaming racist at everything they do or say doesn't work. Screaming racist at a bloody awful song, is just like the Daily Mail screaming immigrants to blame at every opportunity, people just switch off.

    They should be holding their policies up to the fire. I rarely, if ever, see UKIP challenged on their actual policies.
    I agree, actually. It closes down debate. V. much like labelling Abe fascist here in Japan.

    The trouble is there's nobody in the main parties with the balls to make the positive case for the status quo on immigration, or on europe

    There seems to be an almost inverse political correctness in the labour party- "Don't offend Mrs. Duffy" . so we get this absence of debate with name-calling.

    Meanwhile in the european parliament...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,285
    ManofKent/Danny365 The rich you so attack already pay the vast majority of tax anyway, with many on the lowest incomes now taken out of tax altogether
  • Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited October 2014
    This in today's Mail. Labour election campaign strategy holed below waterline?

    "Kirsty Williams, the Liberal Democrats’ leader in Wales, said: ‘Labour’s running of the NHS in Wales is nothing short of a national scandal. If English voters want to see what a Labour health service will look under Ed Miliband they should look no further than Wales.’"

    Ouch!



  • I see the BBC are on their outrage soap box over the stupid UKIP song. Its racist you know, because a white man sings like a black man....



    When will the likes of the BBC learn that just trying to smear UKIP as racist at every opportunity
    wont work.

    When will they realise that they are actually the ignorant racists. There are many white West Indians and oddly enough they speak with the same Caribbean accent as black West Indians.

    Many are the descendents of Catholic Irish transported there by Cromwell. Known derogatively as "redlegs" they have historically suffered terrible discrimination.
This discussion has been closed.