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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » For the second consecutive day YouGov’s UKIP share moves to

SystemSystem Posts: 11,694
edited October 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » For the second consecutive day YouGov’s UKIP share moves to a record high

The record polling shares continue for UKIP with the latest YouGov daily poll moving up from yesterday’s 18% to 19% this morning. The latest figures have CON on 31% and LAB on 33% a joint main two party aggregate of just 64% which is a record low for this parliament.

Read the full story here


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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Sell at 10
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    JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    While I very much like the sound of this "free-disabled-slave-for-every-privately-educated-Englishman" policy that Labour tell me the Tories are proposing, I'm not holding my breath. I still haven't got my Scottish slave that I was promised (I think by Salmond) following the No vote.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    20± seats for UKIP this morning.
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    While I very much like the sound of this "free-disabled-slave-for-every-privately-educated-Englishman" policy that Labour tell me the Tories are proposing, I'm not holding my breath. I still haven't got my Scottish slave that I was promised (I think by Salmond) following the No vote.

    i'd go for the owls if i was you
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    audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    Top thread again, although I guess that might just mean I agree with every word of it.

    I've taken a pop at Lord A's polling re. the Labour share, but I'd love to see him poll in Labour areas not just the Con-Lab marginals. It would also be very useful to know what's going on in LibDem seats.

    I wonder if GE2015 might sound the death-knell for FPTP? I've clung onto the notion that UKIP will slip back, which I still think is the case, but suppose we have a situation of a party winning a clear majority on around 33% or 34% of the vote, something that's entirely feasible. Is that really sustainable on moral and democratic grounds?

    Perhaps an irony of this parliament is that Cameron and Clegg have shown that coalition government can work, and work fine. Back to PR?
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Audreyanne - Lord A does some Con-LD marginals as well, doesn't he?
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited October 2014
    [I wonder if GE2015 might sound the death-knell for FPTP?]

    The Alternative Vote referendum may have killed some form of proportional representation for a generation.

    I'm on record as stating the #indyref (in regards to Scotland, a so called nation-state, currently within the UK) would not.

    EDITED - typo

    EDIT 2 - not a typo, I corrected a word (for reference to fans, readers, lurkers and those with time on their hands - changed "with" to "within"

    PS - I understand the Finnish idiom, translated into english (I think directly), for the type of behavior I have just displayed - is "Comma-fucker"
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    audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    JBriskin said:

    Audreyanne - Lord A does some Con-LD marginals as well, doesn't he?

    You're right: he does indeed. Would still like to know what's happening in Labour seats. Is the UKIP bandwagon taking some of their core support, such as we saw at Heywood and Middleton? If so this could really blow GE15 wide open.

    Good point JBriskin.
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Okay - I need to correct my previous post a little bit.

    It's the #indyref Debate (capitalization for emphasis) that has not been killed. I am not stating that an Independent Scotland (so to speak) is inevitable.
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    I apparently have a little bit of time on my hand.

    FPT

    IshmaelX (sp. ?) - was asking a question where the answer number five stood out.

    He said if you can't answer that question you are stupid.

    Well I admit I am about 24 hours late, and have utilized google somewhat-

    However,

    If this was an essay question the answer could be 5 ("Labour Value", a marxist term)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

    I have used scare quotes because I may have logged yet another neologism.

    Long Reign JBriskin
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Caveat Caveat Caveat Caveat
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,055
    Off-topic:

    During one of our many discussions on energy in the past, I've mentioned potential dark-knight schemes that might solve many problems. Many of these are promoted by people who might be charlatans, but one promising fusion source - a High-Beta fusion reactor - was alluded to in a single video by a Lockheed Martin Skunkworks person early last year, during a Google 'Solve for X' talk. It was important because LM are not sort of company to mention such a thing - and say it was promising - unless they were really onto something.

    Well, yesterday they announced that they have made progress, and are looking for industry and governmental partners to take it forward, with a prototype within a year.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/oct/15/lockheed-breakthrough-nuclear-fusion-energy?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lockheed-claims-breakthrough-on-fusion-energy1/

    There's a long way to go, but it has to be a better use of funds than ITER ...
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    TapestryTapestry Posts: 153
    edited October 2014
    If UKIP dropped fracking/shale gas, they would engage with another much wider constituency overnight. The Greens are doing well based on supporting a ban on unconventional gas extraction in the UK, and much unpopularity is being created in over 120 constituencies of Conservative MPs where fracking proposals are on the table. This potential to swing politics has been noticed by The Guardian's Environment Editor, John Vidal. http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/conservative-face-electoral-destruction.html
    Roger Helmer should be moved on from Energy Spokesman for UKIP, if the Ukippers fancy their chances of landing 100 MPs.
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    Swiss_BobSwiss_Bob Posts: 619
    If anyone missed it yesterday Betfair has 'UKIP Seats Total 2' up.

    http://www.betfair.com/exchange/politics/market?id=1.115908091

    5 or under
    6-10
    11-15
    16-20
    21-25
    26 and over
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,723

    Off-topic:

    During one of our many discussions on energy in the past, I've mentioned potential dark-knight schemes that might solve many problems. Many of these are promoted by people who might be charlatans, but one promising fusion source - a High-Beta fusion reactor - was alluded to in a single video by a Lockheed Martin Skunkworks person early last year, during a Google 'Solve for X' talk. It was important because LM are not sort of company to mention such a thing - and say it was promising - unless they were really onto something.

    Well, yesterday they announced that they have made progress, and are looking for industry and governmental partners to take it forward, with a prototype within a year.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/oct/15/lockheed-breakthrough-nuclear-fusion-energy?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lockheed-claims-breakthrough-on-fusion-energy1/

    There's a long way to go, but it has to be a better use of funds than ITER ...

    If the picture is anything to go by the Lockheed Martin solution uses a 'magnetic bottle' similar to JET and ITER. If they've made advances then great, but fusion is always '10 years away'.
    I think we still need renewables and methods to store the renewable energy (flow batteries etc) in the meantime.
    BTW if it fits on a truck, would there be a version for a DeLorean ;-) ?
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    edited October 2014
    JBriskin said:

    The Alternative Vote referendum may have killed some form of proportional representation for a generation.

    With hindsight - and at the time someone did mention this with foresight (RodCrosby?) - the defeat of AV will probably produce PR, whereas the success of AV would have killed it. If we'd had AV we'd have ended up with a situation more like Australia, where people vote for the smaller parties as their first choices but most of the votes end up transferring to the main parties, so the main thing people care about when the polls are reported is the two-party preference. That could have worked as a safety valve to take the pressure off the weird things FPTP does, but as it is we'll just get a bunch of utterly crazy election results until people finally get sick of it.
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380

    JBriskin said:

    The Alternative Vote referendum may have killed some form of proportional representation for a generation.

    With hindsight - and at the time someone did mention this with foresight (RodCrosby?) - the defeat of AV will probably produce PR, whereas the success of AV would have killed it. If we'd had AV we'd have ended up with a situation more like Australia, where people vote for the smaller parties as their first choices but most of the votes end up transferring to the main parties, so the main thing people care about when the polls are reported is the two-party preference. That could have worked as a safety valve to take the pressure off the weird things FPTP does, but as it is we'll just get a bunch of utterly crazy election results until people finally get sick of it.
    I'm adverse to responding to you EiT - having been warned off you by telegraph Sean.

    However AV's lack of proportionality was not lost on me at the time.

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,055

    Off-topic:

    During one of our many discussions on energy in the past, I've mentioned potential dark-knight schemes that might solve many problems. Many of these are promoted by people who might be charlatans, but one promising fusion source - a High-Beta fusion reactor - was alluded to in a single video by a Lockheed Martin Skunkworks person early last year, during a Google 'Solve for X' talk. It was important because LM are not sort of company to mention such a thing - and say it was promising - unless they were really onto something.

    Well, yesterday they announced that they have made progress, and are looking for industry and governmental partners to take it forward, with a prototype within a year.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/oct/15/lockheed-breakthrough-nuclear-fusion-energy?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lockheed-claims-breakthrough-on-fusion-energy1/

    There's a long way to go, but it has to be a better use of funds than ITER ...

    If the picture is anything to go by the Lockheed Martin solution uses a 'magnetic bottle' similar to JET and ITER. If they've made advances then great, but fusion is always '10 years away'.
    I think we still need renewables and methods to store the renewable energy (flow batteries etc) in the meantime.
    BTW if it fits on a truck, would there be a version for a DeLorean ;-) ?
    Most non-charlatan methods use variants of the 'magnetic bottle'. The point is that Skunkworks has a long and illustrious history of remarkable high-tech achievements, and Lockheed Martin would not publicise such a thing unless they were actually making progress.

    They may be part of the industrial-military complex, but they're also believable.

    It seems that by shrinking the size of the magnetic containment they've been able to contain the plasma in a more efficient manner. Which goes contrary to my (albeit limited) knowledge, which said that it was easier to contain if you went bigger (hence ITER). Heating the plasma with radio waves is an interesting idea.

    For more info:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_beta_fusion_reactor

    It may come to nothing, or not be practical for many end-purposes, and so yes, we need to continue developing other areas of tech. But it's very promising.
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    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Good morning all. Have the Kippers reached 50% yet? No- yawn.
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380

    Good morning all. Have the Kippers reached 50% yet? No- yawn.

    Sell at 10 worker drone

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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,723

    Off-topic:

    During one of our many discussions on energy in the past, I've mentioned potential dark-knight schemes that might solve many problems. Many of these are promoted by people who might be charlatans, but one promising fusion source - a High-Beta fusion reactor - was alluded to in a single video by a Lockheed Martin Skunkworks person early last year, during a Google 'Solve for X' talk. It was important because LM are not sort of company to mention such a thing - and say it was promising - unless they were really onto something.

    Well, yesterday they announced that they have made progress, and are looking for industry and governmental partners to take it forward, with a prototype within a year.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/oct/15/lockheed-breakthrough-nuclear-fusion-energy?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lockheed-claims-breakthrough-on-fusion-energy1/

    There's a long way to go, but it has to be a better use of funds than ITER ...

    If the picture is anything to go by the Lockheed Martin solution uses a 'magnetic bottle' similar to JET and ITER. If they've made advances then great, but fusion is always '10 years away'.
    I think we still need renewables and methods to store the renewable energy (flow batteries etc) in the meantime.
    BTW if it fits on a truck, would there be a version for a DeLorean ;-) ?
    Most non-charlatan methods use variants of the 'magnetic bottle'. The point is that Skunkworks has a long and illustrious history of remarkable high-tech achievements, and Lockheed Martin would not publicise such a thing unless they were actually making progress.

    They may be part of the industrial-military complex, but they're also believable.

    It seems that by shrinking the size of the magnetic containment they've been able to contain the plasma in a more efficient manner. Which goes contrary to my (albeit limited) knowledge, which said that it was easier to contain if you went bigger (hence ITER). Heating the plasma with radio waves is an interesting idea.

    For more info:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_beta_fusion_reactor

    It may come to nothing, or not be practical for many end-purposes, and so yes, we need to continue developing other areas of tech. But it's very promising.
    To add a bit of politics, it seems that the massage guy UKIPs Roger Helmer is very much in favour of fracking. http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/lets-get-real-about-fracking/
    One driver for the Green's advance may be worries about fracking and apparently it's worrying for the Tories http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/fracking/10828543/Government-drive-for-fracking-losing-thousands-of-Tory-votes-Lord-Howell-warns.html
    Maybe this is one of UKIPs policies that won't prove popular once it's more widely known
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    Fat_SteveFat_Steve Posts: 361
    Not sure if anyone has commented on this
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2014/10/15/the-inside-story-of-the-labour-reshuffle-that-never-was/
    In summary, Ed Milliband wanted to move Ed Balls, but couldn't after Heywood and Middleton.
    I have no idea whether it is credible.
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Today programme still rocking the 2 GBP per hour 0710
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Interesting that in this YouGov poll UKIP support is at 19% for men and women. Is Carswell helping to attract female voters?
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    Swiss_BobSwiss_Bob Posts: 619
    edited October 2014
    Rossi's much derided e-cat has been tested again and according to those doing the testing produced an extraordinary amount of power.

    Some have suggested that this might be related to some of the oil price drop.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,055


    To add a bit of politics, it seems that the massage guy UKIPs Roger Helmer is very much in favour of fracking. http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/lets-get-real-about-fracking/
    One driver for the Green's advance may be worries about fracking and apparently it's worrying for the Tories http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/fracking/10828543/Government-drive-for-fracking-losing-thousands-of-Tory-votes-Lord-Howell-warns.html
    Maybe this is one of UKIPs policies that won't prove popular once it's more widely known

    I'd prefer not to have to frack. But it may be the only way forward, at least for the while. Green energy - wind, wave, solar, tidal etc - cannot currently deliver the energy we need, yet alone at a price that makes us competitive.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,055
    Swiss_Bob said:

    Rossi's much derided e-cat has been tested again and according to those doing the testing produced an extraordinary amount of power.

    Some have suggested that this might be related to some of the oil price drop.

    Rossi is doing little to make himself appear other than a charlatan. Such grand claims need to be thoroughly independently tested.

    For people who want to know more:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,454
    Kara Thrace should obviously be the UKIP spokesman on energy.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,347
    I agree with Mike that the surge in UKIP is as much of a reflection of the perceived weakness of the alternatives as anything else. They are indeed the none of the above party of the moment and the country is fed up of stuff being too difficult and politicians not being magicians.

    Quite a lot of this is being driven by the inability of our political class to provide much in the way of bread and circuses as we had become accostomed to. Does this mean that there might be even more opportunities for UKIP when the Miliband premiership falls apart in the next Parliament? Quite possibly so.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    UKIP are getting closer to the Tory share than they are to the Lib Dems. If they get another MP they should certainly be I. Two debates and possibly three.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,347
    Socrates said:

    UKIP are getting closer to the Tory share than they are to the Lib Dems. If they get another MP they should certainly be I. Two debates and possibly three.

    Sent from an I Phone? That function where you get a full stop because it thinks you have hit the space bar twice rather than the letter you were aiming at is top of the long list of annoyances for me.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352
    edited October 2014
    Hat-tip to FrancisUrquhart for his intelligent and compassionate piece on disabled people last night, which I entirely agree with.

    One issue about many mental illnesses is that they switch on and off - people can be OK some days, but depressed/scared/etc. another.

    My old company Novartis in Switzerland had a scheme which I always felt reflected very well on them: long-serving staff who developed mental illness would be transferred to a budget which wasn't charged to the department cost centre. For instance, I had a secretary with chronic depression. I couldn't rely on her coming every day, but when she came (3-4 days a week) she was excellent, and she cost my budget nothing. So I put aside filing etc. for her to do when she was there, and we were both happy.

    The key thing was that the budget was SECRET - talking about it was a disciplinary offence, and telling someone they were on it was a serious breach. So she felt she was a valued normal member of staff - and felt guilty about not being able to work every day, but we were able to reassure her that we thought she was so good it was OK. The company got zero benefit out of it in PR - they just felt it was the right thing to do. It was a factor in making me want to keep working for them - I never looked for a job with another company simply because I liked them for this and other reasons.

    How that transfers into national policy is not so easy to work out. Freud's idea of topping up sub-minimum wages is similar but has the snags I discussed yesterday (undermining the minimum wage, basically). Probably a national basic income, as EiT suggested, is the only economically clean way to do it, but hugely expensive.
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    Swiss_BobSwiss_Bob Posts: 619

    Swiss_Bob said:

    Rossi's much derided e-cat has been tested again and according to those doing the testing produced an extraordinary amount of power.

    Some have suggested that this might be related to some of the oil price drop.

    Rossi is doing little to make himself appear other than a charlatan. Such grand claims need to be thoroughly independently tested.

    For people who want to know more:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
    I wouldn't have mentioned it but for this recent news:

    Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat — the device that purports to use cold fusion to generate massive amounts of cheap, green energy – has been verified by third-party researchers, according to a new 54-page report. The researchers observed a small E-Cat over 32 days, where it produced net energy of 1.5 megawatt-hours, or “far more than can be obtained from any known chemical sources in the small reactor volume.” The researchers were also allowed to analyze the fuel before and after the 32-day run, noting that the isotopes in the spent fuel could only have been obtained by “nuclear reactions” — a conclusion that boggles the researchers: “… It is of course very hard to comprehend how these fusion processes can take place in the fuel compound at low energies.”

    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/191754-cold-fusion-reactor-verified-by-third-party-researchers-seems-to-have-1-million-times-the-energy-density-of-gasoline
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380

    Hat-tip to FrancisUrquhart for his intelligent and compassionate piece on disabled people last night, which I entirely agree with.

    One issue about many mental illnesses is that they switch on and off - people can be OK some days, but depressed/scared/etc. another.

    My old company Novartis in Switzerland had a scheme which I always felt reflected very well on them: long-serving staff who developed mental illness would be transferred to a budget which wasn't charged to the department cost centre. For instance, I had a secretary with chronic depression. I couldn't rely on her coming every day, but when she came (3-4 days a week) she was excellent, and she cost my budget nothing. So I put aside filing etc. for her to do when she was there, and we were both happy.

    The key thing was that the budget was SECRET - talking about it was a disciplinary offence, and telling someone they were on it was a serious breach. So she felt she was a valued normal member of staff - and felt guilty about not being able to work every day, but we were able to reassure her that we thought she was so good it was OK. The company got zero benefit out of it in PR - they just felt it was the right thing to do. It was a factor in making me want to keep working for them - I never looked for a job with another company simply because I liked them for this and other reasons.

    How that transfers into national policy is not so easy to work out. Freud's idea of topping up sub-minimum wages is similar but has the snags I discussed yesterday (undermining the minimum wage, basically). Probably a national basic income, as EiT suggested, is the only economically clean way to do it, but hugely expensive.

    "So I put aside filing etc. for her to do when she was there, and we were both happy."

    Budgets lol

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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Patterson just called out the international skypers - Kudos
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,204
    Fat_Steve said:

    Not sure if anyone has commented on this
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2014/10/15/the-inside-story-of-the-labour-reshuffle-that-never-was/
    In summary, Ed Milliband wanted to move Ed Balls, but couldn't after Heywood and Middleton.
    I have no idea whether it is credible.

    The way the chancellor/shadow chancellor role seems to have become some sort of sacred cow over the last 20 years is bizarre. Future party leaders need to avoid appointing egotists. It should be as open to reshuffle as any other role.

    Not sure why Heywood changed any game though.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2014
    DavidL said:

    Does this mean that there might be even more opportunities for UKIP when the Miliband premiership falls apart in the next Parliament? Quite possibly so.

    If Labour do win the next election, I think UKIP could be in first place in the polls within a couple of years. We just have to look at France where the centre-left party has alienated its natural supporters by (needlessly) slashing spending while the centre-right party is collapsing in in-fighting, leading to even more fertile conditions for an anti-establishment party than we have here at the moment.
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    What is this "UKIP" that one or two people seem to be referring to?
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352
    Back on topic, YG used to be less favourable to UKIP than other posters for some reason, so it's impressive to see them on 19% here. Arguably what's driving it is the half-arsed attempts by other parties to be a little bit kipper - briefing the press that one's quite inclined to try to negotiate less free movement or one's really very keen to enforce the rules more strictly. Kipper-leaning voters notch up the salience of the Kipper issues a bit more but dismiss the pandering as insincere. Like the Tories attacking Labour on the NHS or Labour complaining about Tory defence cuts, it just doesn't work as switchers don't give the parties enough basic credibility on another party's natural issue.

    But the fundamental problem for the Tories is that the "vote Farage, get Miliband" argument is not going to work at all if the parties are in shouting distance of each other. Even we nerds can't work out which parties are in pole position where, so how is the average only vaguely interested voter supposed to do it? Arguably parties need to attack UKIP's other policies, but they're a moveable feast and not especially linked to why people vote for them. Simply attacking Farage as a posh amateur with shifting convictions is probably what the others will fall back on - he's quite good but by no means invincible.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,055
    Swiss_Bob said:

    Swiss_Bob said:

    Rossi's much derided e-cat has been tested again and according to those doing the testing produced an extraordinary amount of power.

    Some have suggested that this might be related to some of the oil price drop.

    Rossi is doing little to make himself appear other than a charlatan. Such grand claims need to be thoroughly independently tested.

    For people who want to know more:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
    I wouldn't have mentioned it but for this recent news:

    Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat — the device that purports to use cold fusion to generate massive amounts of cheap, green energy – has been verified by third-party researchers, according to a new 54-page report. The researchers observed a small E-Cat over 32 days, where it produced net energy of 1.5 megawatt-hours, or “far more than can be obtained from any known chemical sources in the small reactor volume.” The researchers were also allowed to analyze the fuel before and after the 32-day run, noting that the isotopes in the spent fuel could only have been obtained by “nuclear reactions” — a conclusion that boggles the researchers: “… It is of course very hard to comprehend how these fusion processes can take place in the fuel compound at low energies.”

    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/191754-cold-fusion-reactor-verified-by-third-party-researchers-seems-to-have-1-million-times-the-energy-density-of-gasoline
    Thanks, I hadn't seen that.

    But note:
    The researchers are very careful about not actually saying that cold fusion/LENR is the source of the E-Cat’s energy, instead merely saying that an “unknown reaction” is at work. In serious scientific circles, LENR is still a bit of a joke/taboo topic. The paper is actually somewhat comical in this regard: The researchers really try to work out how the E-Cat produces so much darn energy — and they conclude that fusion is the only answer — but then they reel it all back in by adding: “The reaction speculation above should only be considered as an example of reasoning and not a serious conjecture.”
    Rossi's past actions have been more akin to a snake-oil salesman than a scientist. In science, grand claims require grand proofs, and he has been hesitant to allow anything like sufficient independent verification.

    In this, he's very much like the late Maurice Ward with his 'Starlite' heat-absorbing gel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlite.

    But he might be genuine, as I believe Ward was with Starlight. But I'm very sceptical.
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    NPXMP

    Maybe Yougov now specifically prompt for UKIP - which tends to increase the chance that someone will say they'll vote UKIP. I think previously UKIP were an invisible part of 'other'.


    (and the first rule of mental health club is that you don't talk about mental health club)
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    [(and the first rule of mental health club is that you don't talk about mental health club)]

    The exact opposite of professional and mainstream media advice.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Fat_Steve said:

    Not sure if anyone has commented on this
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2014/10/15/the-inside-story-of-the-labour-reshuffle-that-never-was/
    In summary, Ed Milliband wanted to move Ed Balls, but couldn't after Heywood and Middleton.
    I have no idea whether it is credible.

    The way the chancellor/shadow chancellor role seems to have become some sort of sacred cow over the last 20 years is bizarre. Future party leaders need to avoid appointing egotists. It should be as open to reshuffle as any other role.

    Not sure why Heywood changed any game though.
    Problem for EdM and Labour is that whilst Ed Balls has been wrong most of the time, he has nobody else who has a clue about how to improve the economy - a front bench bereft of ideas and doable solutions.
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Financier said:

    Fat_Steve said:

    Not sure if anyone has commented on this
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2014/10/15/the-inside-story-of-the-labour-reshuffle-that-never-was/
    In summary, Ed Milliband wanted to move Ed Balls, but couldn't after Heywood and Middleton.
    I have no idea whether it is credible.

    The way the chancellor/shadow chancellor role seems to have become some sort of sacred cow over the last 20 years is bizarre. Future party leaders need to avoid appointing egotists. It should be as open to reshuffle as any other role.

    Not sure why Heywood changed any game though.
    Problem for EdM and Labour is that whilst Ed Balls has been wrong most of the time, he has nobody else who has a clue about how to improve the economy - a front bench bereft of ideas and doable solutions.
    At what point did Team PB call PMQ's a win for Ed M?

    Asking for a friend.

  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    YouGov

    Today's YouGov shows that the Cons have their lowest 2010 VI retention at 67% whilst losing 24% to UKIP.

    YouGov changed its methodology on August 27th in order to reflect UKIP more accurately.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Cameron's proposal for an emergency brake on EU immigration, and to set out other demands, are potentially very interesting. He's starting to get serious at long last: I look forward to seeing the detail. I guess whether it's meaningful or not will depend on the limit yet. I don't put it past the Tories to say a number like 100,000 per country where it wouldn't actually come into effect.

    When they publish fuller the proposals, it must be judged on the ratios required to get to the five figures net immigration pledge. EU gross immigration is about 150-200k a year. So an equivalent 60% reduction in that means getting it down to about 60k-80k overall. Let's see if his proposed cap does that. If it does, then Cameron will have have genuinely put out a major demand for repatriation. I've previously suggested he would need 2-3 for his repatriation to be serious.

    Also, the free hit here is for HMG to insist that free movement only refers to labour. Unemployed beggars shouldn't be able to come here without a job. We can clearly demand that back without breaching one of the four freedoms, so it's a no-brainer.
  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Socrates said:


    Also, the free hit here is for HMG to insist that free movement only refers to labour. Unemployed beggars shouldn't be able to come here without a job. We can clearly demand that back without breaching one of the four freedoms, so it's a no-brainer.

    Isn't it the workers who depress the wages?

  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Financier said:



    YouGov changed its methodology on August 27th in order to reflect UKIP more accurately.

    How so? Do they include UKIP in their prompt now?

  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Back on topic, YG used to be less favourable to UKIP than other posters for some reason, so it's impressive to see them on 19% here. Arguably what's driving it is the half-arsed attempts by other parties to be a little bit kipper - briefing the press that one's quite inclined to try to negotiate less free movement or one's really very keen to enforce the rules more strictly. Kipper-leaning voters notch up the salience of the Kipper issues a bit more but dismiss the pandering as insincere. Like the Tories attacking Labour on the NHS or Labour complaining about Tory defence cuts, it just doesn't work as switchers don't give the parties enough basic credibility on another party's natural issue.

    With respect Nick, I think this is just what leftists say because they have views at odds with the rest of the electorate, and they don't want the political spectrum moving to where public opinion is. What gets people moving to UKIP is when UKIP activists can say on the door step "The big parties will do nothing about immigration, nothing about the EU and nothing about an English parliament". You're right that insincerity gets you nowhere, but the answer to that isn't to stop talking about those issues, but to propose policies that would actually make a difference. Saying "we hear your concerns about immigration, but we're going to keep immigration running at the same levels" is what pisses people off.

  • Options
    Re the labour market stats.

    During the last four years there has been a 23% increase in employment among those born overseas while only a 2% increase in employment of UK born people.

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data-selector.html?cdid=JF6F&dataset=lms&table-id=08

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data-selector.html?cdid=JF6G&dataset=lms&table-id=08

    Understand this and you will understand why real wages are falling, productivity stagnating, inequality rising and government borrowing remaining over £100bn each year.

    The UK labour market is analogous to having an air conditioning unit working next to an open window. The harder it works the more it will suck in fresh people from outside. Added to this, having a welfare state with free health and education also acts as an incentive for low skilled immigration.

    Now what happens when the UK next has a recession ?
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    JBriskin said:

    Socrates said:


    Also, the free hit here is for HMG to insist that free movement only refers to labour. Unemployed beggars shouldn't be able to come here without a job. We can clearly demand that back without breaching one of the four freedoms, so it's a no-brainer.

    Isn't it the workers who depress the wages?

    Yes, which is why that also needs limits, but limiting non-workers doesn't mean you need to take more workers. And non-workers have lots of issues, if you just look at the rampant increase in the begging population in London, often littering and going to the bathroom in public parks. It's disgusting, and no sensible policy would allow these people in.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,027


    To add a bit of politics, it seems that the massage guy UKIPs Roger Helmer is very much in favour of fracking. http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/lets-get-real-about-fracking/
    One driver for the Green's advance may be worries about fracking and apparently it's worrying for the Tories http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/fracking/10828543/Government-drive-for-fracking-losing-thousands-of-Tory-votes-Lord-Howell-warns.html
    Maybe this is one of UKIPs policies that won't prove popular once it's more widely known

    I'd prefer not to have to frack. But it may be the only way forward, at least for the while. Green energy - wind, wave, solar, tidal etc - cannot currently deliver the energy we need, yet alone at a price that makes us competitive.
    Amen to that.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited October 2014


    In this, he's very much like the late Maurice Ward with his 'Starlite' heat-absorbing gel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlite.

    But he might be genuine, as I believe Ward was with Starlight. But I'm very sceptical.

    Starlite was an actual real thing that had live independent unfakeble tests - like the mentioned bunsen burner on an egg. The question was the practicality of the manufacturing process which Ward never revealed. His paranoia that his idea would be stolen if he patented it banjoed any ability for it to be applied usefully.
  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Socrates said:

    JBriskin said:

    Socrates said:


    Also, the free hit here is for HMG to insist that free movement only refers to labour. Unemployed beggars shouldn't be able to come here without a job. We can clearly demand that back without breaching one of the four freedoms, so it's a no-brainer.

    Isn't it the workers who depress the wages?

    Yes, which is why that also needs limits, but limiting non-workers doesn't mean you need to take more workers. And non-workers have lots of issues, if you just look at the rampant increase in the begging population in London, often littering and going to the bathroom in public parks. It's disgusting, and no sensible policy would allow these people in.
    Yes, okay - I admit to thinking in ratios somewhat because of my [mainstream card game] playing
  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380

    Re the labour market stats.

    During the last four years there has been a 23% increase in employment among those born overseas while only a 2% increase in employment of UK born people.

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data-selector.html?cdid=JF6F&dataset=lms&table-id=08

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data-selector.html?cdid=JF6G&dataset=lms&table-id=08

    Understand this and you will understand why real wages are falling, productivity stagnating, inequality rising and government borrowing remaining over £100bn each year.

    The UK labour market is analogous to having an air conditioning unit working next to an open window. The harder it works the more it will suck in fresh people from outside. Added to this, having a welfare state with free health and education also acts as an incentive for low skilled immigration.

    Now what happens when the UK next has a recession ?

    Sounds like Labour talk to me.

  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Re: Disability Working.

    There was a very interesting interview at ~6.30am on ITV's Good Morning with the father of a disabled son in his 30s. Currently this son does 1 day a week of voluntary work plus college which will come to an end soon. His son's problem is that his attention span is about 30 minutes, is forgetful and tires easily.

    The possibility of stocking supermarket shelves was aired and the father felt that his son would require a lot of supervision which he acknowledged would be an extra cost to the employer. Also he said that his son would be delighted to be able to work about 25 hours a week for £50 as it would give him a purpose in life.

    Whilst Lord Freud may have used his words incorrectly, he felt that Lord Freud had identified a true problem, where disabled people who require greater supervision than normal should not fall under the minimum wage trap but be paid a small wage, when the really important matter was to give these people a new purpose, incentive and direction in lifestyle and not feel useless.

    I believe that Remploy used to 'employ' a lot of such people, but read that some of their factories have closed - perhaps a rethink required.

    As an aside, we had a graduate intern for the summer 3 months who did his M.Sc dissertation with us. Whilst we paid for his living expenses (but not beer money), we estimate that our lost consultancy time due to having to supervise him was a 35% of his time here - so about one month for which our lost consultancy income was about £20,000.

  • Options
    Socrates said:

    Back on topic, YG used to be less favourable to UKIP than other posters for some reason, so it's impressive to see them on 19% here. Arguably what's driving it is the half-arsed attempts by other parties to be a little bit kipper - briefing the press that one's quite inclined to try to negotiate less free movement or one's really very keen to enforce the rules more strictly. Kipper-leaning voters notch up the salience of the Kipper issues a bit more but dismiss the pandering as insincere. Like the Tories attacking Labour on the NHS or Labour complaining about Tory defence cuts, it just doesn't work as switchers don't give the parties enough basic credibility on another party's natural issue.

    With respect Nick, I think this is just what leftists say because they have views at odds with the rest of the electorate, and they don't want the political spectrum moving to where public opinion is. What gets people moving to UKIP is when UKIP activists can say on the door step "The big parties will do nothing about immigration, nothing about the EU and nothing about an English parliament". You're right that insincerity gets you nowhere, but the answer to that isn't to stop talking about those issues, but to propose policies that would actually make a difference. Saying "we hear your concerns about immigration, but we're going to keep immigration running at the same levels" is what pisses people off.

    I agree. What is driving UKIP poll scores is a belief that the other parties are not listening and/or do not care. Full stop. That's why Dave's new move on EU immigration is unlikely to bear much fruit. If he really meant it, why wait until a few months before a GE to start talking about it? He has had four and a half years. The only thing that has changed - the only emergency, if you like - is that UKIP is the biggest obstacle to him staying in power and he feels he has to do something about it.

  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    [Currently this son does 1 day a week of voluntary work plus college which will come to an end soon]

    DISOWNED
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,375

    Simply attacking Farage as a posh amateur with shifting convictions is probably what the others will fall back on - he's quite good but by no means invincible.

    Describes 92.4% of our current MPs if anyone's going down that path.
  • Options
    Financier said:

    Re: Disability Working.

    There was a very interesting interview at ~6.30am on ITV's Good Morning with the father of a disabled son in his 30s. Currently this son does 1 day a week of voluntary work plus college which will come to an end soon. His son's problem is that his attention span is about 30 minutes, is forgetful and tires easily.

    The possibility of stocking supermarket shelves was aired and the father felt that his son would require a lot of supervision which he acknowledged would be an extra cost to the employer. Also he said that his son would be delighted to be able to work about 25 hours a week for £50 as it would give him a purpose in life.

    Whilst Lord Freud may have used his words incorrectly, he felt that Lord Freud had identified a true problem, where disabled people who require greater supervision than normal should not fall under the minimum wage trap but be paid a small wage, when the really important matter was to give these people a new purpose, incentive and direction in lifestyle and not feel useless.

    I believe that Remploy used to 'employ' a lot of such people, but read that some of their factories have closed - perhaps a rethink required.

    As an aside, we had a graduate intern for the summer 3 months who did his M.Sc dissertation with us. Whilst we paid for his living expenses (but not beer money), we estimate that our lost consultancy time due to having to supervise him was a 35% of his time here - so about one month for which our lost consultancy income was about £20,000.

    As he acknowledged himself, Lord Freud's mistake was to tie this to the minimum wage in the first place. It's an unrelated issue.

  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited October 2014

    Socrates said:

    Back on topic, YG used to be less favourable to UKIP than other posters for some reason, so it's impressive to see them on 19% here. Arguably what's driving it is the half-arsed attempts by other parties to be a little bit kipper - briefing the press that one's quite inclined to try to negotiate less free movement or one's really very keen to enforce the rules more strictly. Kipper-leaning voters notch up the salience of the Kipper issues a bit more but dismiss the pandering as insincere. Like the Tories attacking Labour on the NHS or Labour complaining about Tory defence cuts, it just doesn't work as switchers don't give the parties enough basic credibility on another party's natural issue.

    With respect Nick, I think this is just what leftists say because they have views at odds with the rest of the electorate, and they don't want the political spectrum moving to where public opinion is. What gets people moving to UKIP is when UKIP activists can say on the door step "The big parties will do nothing about immigration, nothing about the EU and nothing about an English parliament". You're right that insincerity gets you nowhere, but the answer to that isn't to stop talking about those issues, but to propose policies that would actually make a difference. Saying "we hear your concerns about immigration, but we're going to keep immigration running at the same levels" is what pisses people off.

    I agree. What is driving UKIP poll scores is a belief that the other parties are not listening and/or do not care. Full stop. That's why Dave's new move on EU immigration is unlikely to bear much fruit. If he really meant it, why wait until a few months before a GE to start talking about it? He has had four and a half years. The only thing that has changed - the only emergency, if you like - is that UKIP is the biggest obstacle to him staying in power and he feels he has to do something about it.

    It's Ed M and his bacon butty strategy that may keep Cammo from power again.

    EDITED
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Financier said:



    YouGov changed its methodology on August 27th in order to reflect UKIP more accurately.

    How so? Do they include UKIP in their prompt now?

    Peter Kellner wrote an article on this change if you look back at the YG archive. As UKIP is in the 2010 VI figures, they must prompt for it but check the YG archive.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,723


    To add a bit of politics, it seems that the massage guy UKIPs Roger Helmer is very much in favour of fracking. http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/lets-get-real-about-fracking/
    One driver for the Green's advance may be worries about fracking and apparently it's worrying for the Tories http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/fracking/10828543/Government-drive-for-fracking-losing-thousands-of-Tory-votes-Lord-Howell-warns.html
    Maybe this is one of UKIPs policies that won't prove popular once it's more widely known

    I'd prefer not to have to frack. But it may be the only way forward, at least for the while. Green energy - wind, wave, solar, tidal etc - cannot currently deliver the energy we need, yet alone at a price that makes us competitive.
    Amen to that.
    http://www.worldwatch.org/renewables-becoming-cost-competitive-fossil-fuels-us
    Of course oil is getting cheaper at the moment. Surely we need to factor in the political and financial risks of being dependant on Russia and the Middle East for some of our energy needs. Climate change will also cost us and cause us problems.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758

    Socrates said:

    Back on topic, YG used to be less favourable to UKIP than other posters for some reason, so it's impressive to see them on 19% here. Arguably what's driving it is the half-arsed attempts by other parties to be a little bit kipper - briefing the press that one's quite inclined to try to negotiate less free movement or one's really very keen to enforce the rules more strictly. Kipper-leaning voters notch up the salience of the Kipper issues a bit more but dismiss the pandering as insincere. Like the Tories attacking Labour on the NHS or Labour complaining about Tory defence cuts, it just doesn't work as switchers don't give the parties enough basic credibility on another party's natural issue.

    With respect Nick, I think this is just what leftists say because they have views at odds with the rest of the electorate, and they don't want the political spectrum moving to where public opinion is. What gets people moving to UKIP is when UKIP activists can say on the door step "The big parties will do nothing about immigration, nothing about the EU and nothing about an English parliament". You're right that insincerity gets you nowhere, but the answer to that isn't to stop talking about those issues, but to propose policies that would actually make a difference. Saying "we hear your concerns about immigration, but we're going to keep immigration running at the same levels" is what pisses people off.

    I agree. What is driving UKIP poll scores is a belief that the other parties are not listening and/or do not care. Full stop. That's why Dave's new move on EU immigration is unlikely to bear much fruit. If he really meant it, why wait until a few months before a GE to start talking about it? He has had four and a half years. The only thing that has changed - the only emergency, if you like - is that UKIP is the biggest obstacle to him staying in power and he feels he has to do something about it.

    Quite so, Cameron just seems to be a natural last minuter. He postures, then he cracks.
  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746


    To add a bit of politics, it seems that the massage guy UKIPs Roger Helmer is very much in favour of fracking. http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/lets-get-real-about-fracking/
    One driver for the Green's advance may be worries about fracking and apparently it's worrying for the Tories http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/fracking/10828543/Government-drive-for-fracking-losing-thousands-of-Tory-votes-Lord-Howell-warns.html
    Maybe this is one of UKIPs policies that won't prove popular once it's more widely known

    I'd prefer not to have to frack. But it may be the only way forward, at least for the while. Green energy - wind, wave, solar, tidal etc - cannot currently deliver the energy we need, yet alone at a price that makes us competitive.
    Amen to that.
    http://www.worldwatch.org/renewables-becoming-cost-competitive-fossil-fuels-us
    Of course oil is getting cheaper at the moment. Surely we need to factor in the political and financial risks of being dependant on Russia and the Middle East for some of our energy needs. Climate change will also cost us and cause us problems.
    HMG policy on 'climate change' will certainly cause us problems:

    "...by 2020 around 23% of household electricity bills will be as a result of climate change policy."

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm130910/halltext/130910h0001.htm
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,055


    To add a bit of politics, it seems that the massage guy UKIPs Roger Helmer is very much in favour of fracking. http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/lets-get-real-about-fracking/
    One driver for the Green's advance may be worries about fracking and apparently it's worrying for the Tories http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/fracking/10828543/Government-drive-for-fracking-losing-thousands-of-Tory-votes-Lord-Howell-warns.html
    Maybe this is one of UKIPs policies that won't prove popular once it's more widely known

    I'd prefer not to have to frack. But it may be the only way forward, at least for the while. Green energy - wind, wave, solar, tidal etc - cannot currently deliver the energy we need, yet alone at a price that makes us competitive.
    Amen to that.
    http://www.worldwatch.org/renewables-becoming-cost-competitive-fossil-fuels-us
    Of course oil is getting cheaper at the moment. Surely we need to factor in the political and financial risks of being dependant on Russia and the Middle East for some of our energy needs. Climate change will also cost us and cause us problems.
    It's fine to say we must factor in the political and financial risks of fossil fuels. But if you do say that, then you must also factor in the political and financial risks of green energy.

    Since we in the UK cannot generate enough non-nuclear green energy to meet demand in even the best circumstances using current tech, 100% green energy would mean dropping demand significantly. The political and financial risks of that are obvious.
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Financier said:

    Re: Disability Working.

    There was a very interesting interview at ~6.30am on ITV's Good Morning with the father of a disabled son in his 30s. Currently this son does 1 day a week of voluntary work plus college which will come to an end soon. His son's problem is that his attention span is about 30 minutes, is forgetful and tires easily.

    The possibility of stocking supermarket shelves was aired and the father felt that his son would require a lot of supervision which he acknowledged would be an extra cost to the employer. Also he said that his son would be delighted to be able to work about 25 hours a week for £50 as it would give him a purpose in life.

    Whilst Lord Freud may have used his words incorrectly, he felt that Lord Freud had identified a true problem, where disabled people who require greater supervision than normal should not fall under the minimum wage trap but be paid a small wage, when the really important matter was to give these people a new purpose, incentive and direction in lifestyle and not feel useless.

    I believe that Remploy used to 'employ' a lot of such people, but read that some of their factories have closed - perhaps a rethink required.

    As an aside, we had a graduate intern for the summer 3 months who did his M.Sc dissertation with us. Whilst we paid for his living expenses (but not beer money), we estimate that our lost consultancy time due to having to supervise him was a 35% of his time here - so about one month for which our lost consultancy income was about £20,000.

    As he acknowledged himself, Lord Freud's mistake was to tie this to the minimum wage in the first place. It's an unrelated issue.

    But is there a legal issue at present regarding payment below the minimum wage?

    Our IT guy has a physical disability but there is nothing wrong with his brain. So we give him the use of one of our pool cars (including fuel) and a mobile phone - that is his requested method of payment for the odd days a month he helps us out.
  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Financier said:

    Financier said:

    Re: Disability Working.

    There was a very interesting interview at ~6.30am on ITV's Good Morning with the father of a disabled son in his 30s. Currently this son does 1 day a week of voluntary work plus college which will come to an end soon. His son's problem is that his attention span is about 30 minutes, is forgetful and tires easily.

    The possibility of stocking supermarket shelves was aired and the father felt that his son would require a lot of supervision which he acknowledged would be an extra cost to the employer. Also he said that his son would be delighted to be able to work about 25 hours a week for £50 as it would give him a purpose in life.

    Whilst Lord Freud may have used his words incorrectly, he felt that Lord Freud had identified a true problem, where disabled people who require greater supervision than normal should not fall under the minimum wage trap but be paid a small wage, when the really important matter was to give these people a new purpose, incentive and direction in lifestyle and not feel useless.

    I believe that Remploy used to 'employ' a lot of such people, but read that some of their factories have closed - perhaps a rethink required.

    As an aside, we had a graduate intern for the summer 3 months who did his M.Sc dissertation with us. Whilst we paid for his living expenses (but not beer money), we estimate that our lost consultancy time due to having to supervise him was a 35% of his time here - so about one month for which our lost consultancy income was about £20,000.

    As he acknowledged himself, Lord Freud's mistake was to tie this to the minimum wage in the first place. It's an unrelated issue.

    But is there a legal issue at present regarding payment below the minimum wage?

    Our IT guy has a physical disability but there is nothing wrong with his brain. So we give him the use of one of our pool cars (including fuel) and a mobile phone - that is his requested method of payment for the odd days a month he helps us out.
    Is this a joke?

    Are you third sector in some way Mr Financier?

  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Back on topic, YG used to be less favourable to UKIP than other posters for some reason, so it's impressive to see them on 19% here. Arguably what's driving it is the half-arsed attempts by other parties to be a little bit kipper - briefing the press that one's quite inclined to try to negotiate less free movement or one's really very keen to enforce the rules more strictly. Kipper-leaning voters notch up the salience of the Kipper issues a bit more but dismiss the pandering as insincere. Like the Tories attacking Labour on the NHS or Labour complaining about Tory defence cuts, it just doesn't work as switchers don't give the parties enough basic credibility on another party's natural issue.

    With respect Nick, I think this is just what leftists say because they have views at odds with the rest of the electorate, and they don't want the political spectrum moving to where public opinion is. What gets people moving to UKIP is when UKIP activists can say on the door step "The big parties will do nothing about immigration, nothing about the EU and nothing about an English parliament". You're right that insincerity gets you nowhere, but the answer to that isn't to stop talking about those issues, but to propose policies that would actually make a difference. Saying "we hear your concerns about immigration, but we're going to keep immigration running at the same levels" is what pisses people off.

    I agree. What is driving UKIP poll scores is a belief that the other parties are not listening and/or do not care. Full stop. That's why Dave's new move on EU immigration is unlikely to bear much fruit. If he really meant it, why wait until a few months before a GE to start talking about it? He has had four and a half years. The only thing that has changed - the only emergency, if you like - is that UKIP is the biggest obstacle to him staying in power and he feels he has to do something about it.

    I've long lost any sense of affinity or trust in Cameron at this point, as I suspect most Conservative-UKIP movers have. That's why if I'm going to be won back, I need pretty concrete, wriggle-free commitments: specific mechanisms for reducing immigration, specific demands for repatriation, specific actions to improve civil liberties. Cameron is at last starting to get this, judging by this morning's announcement. But we need more detail.
  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Financier said:

    Financier said:



    YouGov changed its methodology on August 27th in order to reflect UKIP more accurately.

    How so? Do they include UKIP in their prompt now?

    Peter Kellner wrote an article on this change if you look back at the YG archive. As UKIP is in the 2010 VI figures, they must prompt for it but check the YG archive.
    They changed their weighting.

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/08/27/update-labour-lead-4/

    They still don't include UKIP in their prompt.

    http://yougov.co.uk/publicopinion/methodology/
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    OT

    As detached from reality as many politicians.

    Robbie Savage said, " To be completely honest, during my 20-year playing career, I never once thought about how much it was costing fans to go to games.

    Other players might have been different, but I did not meet any.

    I never discussed the issue with any of my team-mates at any of my clubs and, whoever I was playing for, ticket prices did not cross my mind once, let alone how much the pies or the programme were.

    I cannot imagine things have changed much in the last few years.

    The truth is that most Premier League players live in a bubble. If you ask most of them what a ticket costs, they would not have a clue."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29638128
  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Back on topic, YG used to be less favourable to UKIP than other posters for some reason, so it's impressive to see them on 19% here. Arguably what's driving it is the half-arsed attempts by other parties to be a little bit kipper - briefing the press that one's quite inclined to try to negotiate less free movement or one's really very keen to enforce the rules more strictly. Kipper-leaning voters notch up the salience of the Kipper issues a bit more but dismiss the pandering as insincere. Like the Tories attacking Labour on the NHS or Labour complaining about Tory defence cuts, it just doesn't work as switchers don't give the parties enough basic credibility on another party's natural issue.

    With respect Nick, I think this is just what leftists say because they have views at odds with the rest of the electorate, and they don't want the political spectrum moving to where public opinion is. What gets people moving to UKIP is when UKIP activists can say on the door step "The big parties will do nothing about immigration, nothing about the EU and nothing about an English parliament". You're right that insincerity gets you nowhere, but the answer to that isn't to stop talking about those issues, but to propose policies that would actually make a difference. Saying "we hear your concerns about immigration, but we're going to keep immigration running at the same levels" is what pisses people off.

    I agree. What is driving UKIP poll scores is a belief that the other parties are not listening and/or do not care. Full stop. That's why Dave's new move on EU immigration is unlikely to bear much fruit. If he really meant it, why wait until a few months before a GE to start talking about it? He has had four and a half years. The only thing that has changed - the only emergency, if you like - is that UKIP is the biggest obstacle to him staying in power and he feels he has to do something about it.

    I've long lost any sense of affinity or trust in Cameron at this point, as I suspect most Conservative-UKIP movers have. That's why if I'm going to be won back, I need pretty concrete, wriggle-free commitments: specific mechanisms for reducing immigration, specific demands for repatriation, specific actions to improve civil liberties. Cameron is at last starting to get this, judging by this morning's announcement. But we need more detail.
    [Cameron is at last starting to get this, judging by this morning's announcement]

    Source and link please.

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,375
    Financier said:

    Financier said:

    Re: Disability Working.

    There was a very interesting interview at ~6.30am on ITV's Good Morning with the father of a disabled son in his 30s. Currently this son does 1 day a week of voluntary work plus college which will come to an end soon. His son's problem is that his attention span is about 30 minutes, is forgetful and tires easily.

    The possibility of stocking supermarket shelves was aired and the father felt that his son would require a lot of supervision which he acknowledged would be an extra cost to the employer. Also he said that his son would be delighted to be able to work about 25 hours a week for £50 as it would give him a purpose in life.

    Whilst Lord Freud may have used his words incorrectly, he felt that Lord Freud had identified a true problem, where disabled people who require greater supervision than normal should not fall under the minimum wage trap but be paid a small wage, when the really important matter was to give these people a new purpose, incentive and direction in lifestyle and not feel useless.

    I believe that Remploy used to 'employ' a lot of such people, but read that some of their factories have closed - perhaps a rethink required.

    As an aside, we had a graduate intern for the summer 3 months who did his M.Sc dissertation with us. Whilst we paid for his living expenses (but not beer money), we estimate that our lost consultancy time due to having to supervise him was a 35% of his time here - so about one month for which our lost consultancy income was about £20,000.

    As he acknowledged himself, Lord Freud's mistake was to tie this to the minimum wage in the first place. It's an unrelated issue.

    But is there a legal issue at present regarding payment below the minimum wage?

    Our IT guy has a physical disability but there is nothing wrong with his brain. So we give him the use of one of our pool cars (including fuel) and a mobile phone - that is his requested method of payment for the odd days a month he helps us out.
    At the crux, which all the outraged lefties are missing (deliberately so in most cases,) is the fact that if Person A and Person B turn up for a job interview and Person B has a disability (relevant to that job) then an employer might choose to employ Person A as his productivity will be superior.

    Until there is a law that mandates employing people with disabilities over those without disabilities (relevant to the job) then that issue will exist.

    Lord Freud, from what I have read, did not (choose to) explain in sufficient depth the critical issue.
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    JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Socrates said:




    I've long lost any sense of affinity or trust in Cameron at this point, as I suspect most Conservative-UKIP movers have. That's why if I'm going to be won back, I need pretty concrete, wriggle-free commitments: specific mechanisms for reducing immigration, specific demands for repatriation, specific actions to improve civil liberties. Cameron is at last starting to get this, judging by this morning's announcement. But we need more detail.

    You are invited today to share your views on immigration with David Cameron here http://immigration.conservatives.com/
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Financier said:

    OT

    As detached from reality as many politicians.

    Robbie Savage said, " To be completely honest, during my 20-year playing career, I never once thought about how much it was costing fans to go to games.

    Other players might have been different, but I did not meet any.

    I never discussed the issue with any of my team-mates at any of my clubs and, whoever I was playing for, ticket prices did not cross my mind once, let alone how much the pies or the programme were.

    I cannot imagine things have changed much in the last few years.

    The truth is that most Premier League players live in a bubble. If you ask most of them what a ticket costs, they would not have a clue."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29638128

    Is this footballer on twitter? I understand he has been on Strictly.

    As an aside, Bbc had a lot of - to put it bluntly - very crappy numbers relating to the cost of/for football fans last evening.

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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,651

    Hat-tip to FrancisUrquhart for his intelligent and compassionate piece on disabled people last night, which I entirely agree with.

    One issue about many mental illnesses is that they switch on and off - people can be OK some days, but depressed/scared/etc. another.

    My old company Novartis in Switzerland had a scheme which I always felt reflected very well on them: long-serving staff who developed mental illness would be transferred to a budget which wasn't charged to the department cost centre. For instance, I had a secretary with chronic depression. I couldn't rely on her coming every day, but when she came (3-4 days a week) she was excellent, and she cost my budget nothing. So I put aside filing etc. for her to do when she was there, and we were both happy.

    The key thing was that the budget was SECRET - talking about it was a disciplinary offence, and telling someone they were on it was a serious breach. So she felt she was a valued normal member of staff - and felt guilty about not being able to work every day, but we were able to reassure her that we thought she was so good it was OK. The company got zero benefit out of it in PR - they just felt it was the right thing to do. It was a factor in making me want to keep working for them - I never looked for a job with another company simply because I liked them for this and other reasons.

    How that transfers into national policy is not so easy to work out. Freud's idea of topping up sub-minimum wages is similar but has the snags I discussed yesterday (undermining the minimum wage, basically). Probably a national basic income, as EiT suggested, is the only economically clean way to do it, but hugely expensive.

    Not convinced by that, Nick.

    1 - Management are making determinations about peopIe's mentaI heaIth without teIIing them.
    2 - I'm not sure how you keep it secret from someone in this age of Subject Access Requests under Data Protection Iaw.
    3 - I suspect that Unions wouId have kittens about companies making secret judgements behind cIosed doors, and start sIinging mud as per.

    The two huge probIems as I see it with minimum wage is the effect on youth empIoyment. If the Govt are going to mandate that peopIe with no experience be paid the same as peopIe with 3-4 years' experience what wiII happen? Or rather, what did happen ... a reported by the Iow Pay Unit:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/288841/The_National_Minimum_Wage_LPC_Report_2014.pdf

    The other is that disabIed peopIe capabIe of some work but who cannot justify a fuII wage are Ieft vegetating in front of Jeremy KyIe rather than being abIe to take aprt in society.

    I think it refIects terribIy on MiIiband that he chose to sIing mud rather than engage in a debate.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    edited October 2014
    Financier said:

    OT

    As detached from reality as many politicians.

    Robbie Savage said, " To be completely honest, during my 20-year playing career, I never once thought about how much it was costing fans to go to games.

    Other players might have been different, but I did not meet any.

    I never discussed the issue with any of my team-mates at any of my clubs and, whoever I was playing for, ticket prices did not cross my mind once, let alone how much the pies or the programme were.

    I cannot imagine things have changed much in the last few years.

    The truth is that most Premier League players live in a bubble. If you ask most of them what a ticket costs, they would not have a clue."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29638128

    If politicians were really worried, they wouldn't block planning permission for new grounds or stands. But Tony (I remember watching Jackie Miliburn) Blair, Cameron, and many others pretend to 'support' football teams, but do they know the ticket prices. Brown adopted Raith Rovers just because they were on his patch, supporting them avoided accusations of being tribal or a Bluenose. At least Reid was open about being a Celtic fan.

    Must be one of these We Should Do Something to Gain Headlines stories just before the election.



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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,055
    Alistair said:


    In this, he's very much like the late Maurice Ward with his 'Starlite' heat-absorbing gel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlite.

    But he might be genuine, as I believe Ward was with Starlight. But I'm very sceptical.

    Starlite was an actual real thing that had live independent unfakeble tests - like the mentioned bunsen burner on an egg. The question was the practicality of the manufacturing process which Ward never revealed. His paranoia that his idea would be stolen if he patented it banjoed any ability for it to be applied usefully.
    You are right - I was being unfair to Ward. He did allow independent tests (one set of tests was done at the AWE at Aldermaston, who should have known what they were doing). I meant to say his desire to hold his cards close to his chest was similar to Rossi. Ward was an interesting character, and wanted far too much for his invention - unless he knew something the rest of us did not that made it more valuable.

    My problem with Rossi's e-Cat is this: if I was a clever man wanting to perpetuate a fraud, I would do exactly what he is doing. Until he gets reputable teams to do proper independent and repeatable tests, I'm remaining highly sceptical.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,375
    JBriskin said:

    Financier said:

    OT

    As detached from reality as many politicians.

    Robbie Savage said, " To be completely honest, during my 20-year playing career, I never once thought about how much it was costing fans to go to games.

    Other players might have been different, but I did not meet any.

    I never discussed the issue with any of my team-mates at any of my clubs and, whoever I was playing for, ticket prices did not cross my mind once, let alone how much the pies or the programme were.

    I cannot imagine things have changed much in the last few years.

    The truth is that most Premier League players live in a bubble. If you ask most of them what a ticket costs, they would not have a clue."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29638128

    Is this footballer on twitter? I understand he has been on Strictly.

    As an aside, Bbc had a lot of - to put it bluntly - very crappy numbers relating to the cost of/for football fans last evening.

    What is the complaint? There are waiting lists at the top clubs for tickets aren't there? I see adverts for cheap West Ham tickets in the local papers all the time.

    We have some degree of market efficiency here, what is the proposal to do to change it?
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,651
    Bah.

    2 "sIing mud"s in one post. Cue to cunning Iinguist poIice...
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,277

    Financier said:



    YouGov changed its methodology on August 27th in order to reflect UKIP more accurately.

    How so? Do they include UKIP in their prompt now?

    Morning all,

    Just having a look through YouGov's latest numbers. A couple of things strike me.

    Firstly, when asked what the most important issue facing the country is - immigration comes joint top on 55%. Yet, when asked what is most important issue facing their own families, it drops down to 21%. If UKIP is solely (mainly?) about this issue, then when people actually come to vote will they be thinking about the good of the country or just their own families.

    Secondly, YouGov seem to weight partly based on newspaper readership. I'm no polling anorak but surely the young don't bother with newspapers anymore. So how does that weighting help with their age group voting sample?


  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    OT

    More child sexual exploitation scandals like the one that happened in Rotherham will be uncovered in the coming months, a police chief has said.

    Norfolk Chief Constable Simon Bailey told the Guardian that child sex crimes had "for too long been hidden".

    He also said teachers and doctors should do more to spot signs of abuse.

    At least 1,400 children were sexually exploited in Rotherham from 1997 to 2013, mainly by gangs of men of Pakistani heritage.

    Mr Bailey, the leading officer within the Association of Chief Police Officers concerned with the issue of child abuse, has warned that the scale of the problem nationwide could be larger than previously thought.

    "We don't know for sure. But I think it's tens of thousands of victims [a year] of an appalling crime," Mr Bailey said.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29639374
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TOPPING
    If a 25 year old turns up at an interview along with an equally qualified 63 year old, who will the employers be most likely to hire? Or should the 63 year old be able to offer them their services at below minimum wage?
    The principles are the same are they not?
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    TOPPING said:

    JBriskin said:

    Financier said:

    OT

    As detached from reality as many politicians.

    Robbie Savage said, " To be completely honest, during my 20-year playing career, I never once thought about how much it was costing fans to go to games.

    Other players might have been different, but I did not meet any.

    I never discussed the issue with any of my team-mates at any of my clubs and, whoever I was playing for, ticket prices did not cross my mind once, let alone how much the pies or the programme were.

    I cannot imagine things have changed much in the last few years.

    The truth is that most Premier League players live in a bubble. If you ask most of them what a ticket costs, they would not have a clue."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29638128

    Is this footballer on twitter? I understand he has been on Strictly.

    As an aside, Bbc had a lot of - to put it bluntly - very crappy numbers relating to the cost of/for football fans last evening.

    What is the complaint? There are waiting lists at the top clubs for tickets aren't there? I see adverts for cheap West Ham tickets in the local papers all the time.

    We have some degree of market efficiency here, what is the proposal to do to change it?
    My point is that Financier's best OT post's relate to oil prices and forex.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,375
    edited October 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    @TOPPING
    If a 25 year old turns up at an interview along with an equally qualified 63 year old, who will the employers be most likely to hire? Or should the 63 year old be able to offer them their services at below minimum wage?
    The principles are the same are they not?

    To do what job? Chief Accountant at Saga Holidays?

    It is or should be all about ability to do the job. What (dear God I hope) Freud was saying is that in the PersonA/PersonB scenario, the state levels the playing field. The employer pays for and gets £6.50/hr worth of value from Person A and pays for and gets, say, £2/hr worth of value from Person B with the State topping up Person B's wages so that Person B makes £6.50/hr in wages also.

    I'm sure that model is fraught with flaws but that seems to be the gist of what Freud was saying, wasn't it?
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    edited October 2014
    Financier said:

    OT

    More child sexual exploitation scandals like the one that happened in Rotherham will be uncovered in the coming months, a police chief has said.

    Norfolk Chief Constable Simon Bailey told the Guardian that child sex crimes had "for too long been hidden".

    He also said teachers and doctors should do more to spot signs of abuse.

    At least 1,400 children were sexually exploited in Rotherham from 1997 to 2013, mainly by gangs of men of Pakistani heritage.

    Mr Bailey, the leading officer within the Association of Chief Police Officers concerned with the issue of child abuse, has warned that the scale of the problem nationwide could be larger than previously thought.

    "We don't know for sure. But I think it's tens of thousands of victims [a year] of an appalling crime," Mr Bailey said.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29639374

    You could have at least quoted from the 'original' source, the Beeboid's news bible Guardian Front Page, Main Story.

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/15/rotherham-child-sexual-abuse-scandal-tip-iceberg-police-chief

    I see that The Guardian has very wisely limited the comments to zero. One for he cage rattlers.

    I also note that this story was given more room than the crap over Freud's remarks, so there is something for the lefty outraged types to complain about.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Smarmeron said:

    @TOPPING
    If a 25 year old turns up at an interview along with an equally qualified 63 year old, who will the employers be most likely to hire? Or should the 63 year old be able to offer them their services at below minimum wage?
    The principles are the same are they not?

    Do 63 year olds have an unemployment rate of 50% though? For me, that's the defining aspect of why there might need to be a special policy for the disabled. Unlike other groups, it's not an incremental difference.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,995
    Good morning, everyone.

    A strange sort of hiatus. Nothing happens for a few weeks, then we have three races in the first three weeks or so of November, the attempt to land on the comet, the Rochester by-election, and, of course, Dragon Age: Inquisition (apparently they're releasing Shadow of Mordor on the same day, which seems a bit stupid for both games, but there we are).
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TOPPING
    It's the logical flaws in the system that are the problem, not the fact that a disabled person should be able to work if they want to.
    By making an exception for one group, you open the way to exceptions for others.
    As I have said before, argue against the minimum wage, and you are on firmer ground and the inconsistencies are avoided.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    They say you're getting older when you think the police look young.

    I must be getting very old because the politicians seem to be getting ever more childish. A manufactured outbreak of hyperbolic outrage at someone I'd never heard of who used somewhat clumsy phrasing when speaking off the cuff.

    This is what concentrates the minds of our elected representatives when we have carnage in the middle east, an ebola epidemic in Africa and a deficit of £100 billion.

    Is EdM worth £2 an hour? Probably not, but it's a minor point.
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    more beheadings afoot in the the middle east

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29627766
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,130
    edited October 2014
    TOPPING said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @TOPPING
    If a 25 year old turns up at an interview along with an equally qualified 63 year old, who will the employers be most likely to hire? Or should the 63 year old be able to offer them their services at below minimum wage?
    The principles are the same are they not?

    To do what job? Chief Accountant at Saga Holidays?

    It is or should be all about ability to do the job. What (dear God I hope) Freud was saying is that in the PersonA/PersonB scenario, the state levels the playing field. The employer pays for and gets £6.50/hr worth of value from Person A and pays for and gets, say, £2/hr worth of value from Person B with the State topping up Person B's wages so that Person B makes £6.50/hr in wages also.

    I'm sure that model is fraught with flaws but that seems to be the gist of what Freud was saying, wasn't it?
    That was how I understood it. In the context of a question about disabled who knew they might only be doing £2 per hour of worth yet still wanted to work - but the Minimum Wage was preventing them offering themselves at their true value.

    Do Labour REALLY think there was a vicious intent behind what was being discussed?

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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @MarqueeMark
    Labour probably know it was a mistake, but when has that stopped any politician exploiting such a mistake for political advantage?
    #Buttygate for example?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Did anyone see the report on the work Michael Lyons is doing for Miliband on housing.

    Seems:

    - they want the government to get into the commercial property loan market to support small builders
    - new builds will only be allowed to be sold to first time buyers for the first 2 months after completion (doesn't say anything about off-plan)
    - there will be no rental covenants in new build properties as part of planning permission

    This guy really does like to get stuck into the detail. But that's a long list of intereferences that is going to make building new houses hugely unattractive

    (FWIW, I don't really do BTL because I don't like the return profile. I do have an interest in one block that is rented out, but that was bought as part of a change of use investment)
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Could really do with updated marginal polling on Walsall N, Dudley N, Yarmouth, Grimsby, Thurrock, Rotherham.

    Noticeable that UKIP lead Tories in C2DE and that they are again level with Labour in the South.

    Last few days seem to show Lab-UKIP move in London. That will be suburban.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,995
    edited October 2014
    Mr. Mark, some say Ed Miliband is an opportunistic little shit.
  • Options
    NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Back on topic, YG used to be less favourable to UKIP than other posters for ork as switchers don't give the parties enough basic credibility on another party's natural issue.

    With respect Nick, I think this is just what leftists say because t, but we're going to keep immigration running at the same levels" is what pisses people off.

    I agree. What is driving UKIP poll scores is a belief that the other parties are not listening and/or do not care. Full stop. That's why Dave's new move on EU immigration is unlikely to bear much fruit. If he really meant it, why wait until a few months before a GE to start talking about it? He has had four and a half years. The only thing that has changed - the only emergency, if you like - is that UKIP is the biggest obstacle to him staying in power and he feels he has to do something about it.

    I've long lost any sense of affinity or trust in Cameron at this point, as I suspect most Conservative-UKIP movers have. That's why if I'm going to be won back, I need pretty concrete, wriggle-free commitments: specific mechanisms for reducing immigration, specific demands for repatriation, specific actions to improve civil liberties. Cameron is at last starting to get this, judging by this morning's announcement. But we need more detail.
    Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Morris_Dancer
    Some say David Cameron is a two faced PR man who spins whichever way the wind blows?
    Are you making a point or just "chumming" with other posters who you think share your world view?
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Is Basildon South and East Thurrock looked on as a potential UKIP gain? Low Tory vote 44%, Good Labour (31%) but not enough to make it a 2-way marginal.
This discussion has been closed.