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  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Here is a comment from a disabled man on Labour List - "

    Because the law changed in which you cannot treat a disabled person any different then a non disabled person, it was brought in by the EU and labour signed up to it. Not forgetting Freud actually said the same thing in the labour party. But Gordon Brown thought DLA one of the main disabled benefits should be stopped because it was a wasted benefit.

    I'm severely disabled and to be honest before labour brought in all these new laws I could find work once they brought in the equality regulations I could not find anything at all.

    But a disabled person can work now and be paid and get his or her benefits, the person cannot work more then 16 hours a week and do not laugh earn more then £20.
    "

    We used to have a law that companies should employ a certain percentage of disabled workers.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    Lucky Guy


    "Left wing -hoovers up sentimentality -long term economic and social catastrophe. Right wing -decisions look selfish at the time -long term economic health and social cohesion."

    I know a girl whose job is to help look after eight severely disturbed patients. They need one to one care round the clock which requires a staff of over twenty five.

    The economic solution would be to shoot these eight people but I don't think anyone's got the heart.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    NP Yet those tasks may provide something for disabled people to do if they are the only group allowed to be paid a rate less than minimum wage to do such tasks, as unlike able bodied people many of the disabled could never be trained up enough to beat an able bodied candidate for a minimum wage job on account of their disability
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited October 2014
    @IOS

    'Freud should be fired. He will be eventually. Cameron should get ahead of an issue for once.'

    Maybe you can explain why Andy Burnham still hasn't been fired,is Ed too scared or just thinks the public will forget patients having to drink out of flower vases at Mid Staffs?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,586

    HYUFD said:

    SO There are some tasks eg some cleaning, tidying up, basic data entry, greeting people etc that do not get done as they are not worth paying a worker minimum wage for, however if paid a lesser wage they may be worthwhile

    Quite so. But that's an argument against the minimum wage: an argument which the main parties have all rejected.

    The counter-argument which the parties have implicitly accepted is that instead of employing people to tidy up at 10p/hour (to take an extreme example), it's better to try to avoid creating a mess (or live with it if you don't care) and train the chap who would have done it to do something more useful. The argument that there is absolutely nothing useful he could do no matter how much help he got is a counsel of despair which isn't usually justified.

    I don't think that everyone has accepted this argument, even though the parties are officially in favour, which is why this sort of row breaks out from time to time. It's not outrageous to have different views on this, but free-market people need to recognise that the parties have accepted the minimum wage, since otherwise a lot of British politics in this area just won't make sense to them.


    But unless you force companies to take on the extreme cases those people will not be able to find a job as there will always be someone better to take it.

    Now for larger companies its not usually a problem. Its a very rare Morrisons that doesn't employ a basket mover with Down's Syndrome (granted its not the most exciting job in the world but they always seem happy doing it). But for a smaller company that person is going to be instantly rejected..

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited October 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    @CarlottaVance
    Was it supposed to be a "secret" conference then? ;-)

    It was a conference for Conservatives - but if Labour want to create open season on snooping.......
  • Roger said:

    Lucky Guy


    "Left wing -hoovers up sentimentality -long term economic and social catastrophe. Right wing -decisions look selfish at the time -long term economic health and social cohesion."

    I know a girl whose job is to help look after eight severely disturbed patients. They need one to one care round the clock which requires a staff of over twenty five.

    The economic solution would be to shoot these eight people but I don't think anyone's got the heart.

    I think on this kind of thing "heartless economists who seek to maximise the dollars" get an unduly harsh press, because that's not an accurate description of "economic" thinking.

    Like or loathe it, neo-classical economics is premised on the basis that people seek "utility" rather than money per se. An economist is most unlikely to argue that the utility-maximising outcome is the execution the sick. In addition to the loss of utility suffered by the executed themselves, it would create a world where we all lived in even greater fear of illness.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Norm said:

    We seen any info on how many people are at the Tory open primary tonight??

    It's at the Rochester Corn Exchange which can hold up to 250 seated people. It's a public meeting and I believe there will be another to follow. If that is the case I might make the 8 mile trip to the next one. The result will be decided via postal voting.
    That seems a very small venue.

    UKIP's public meeting in Clacton was reported to have attracted 700.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JohnRentoul: Interesting if true: EdM planned to sack @edballsmp & swap him with @YvetteCooperMP as shadow Chancellor @LabourUncut http://t.co/EnKg7YRJy1
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Do Tories have to be so inhuman ? Openly saying that disabled people are effectively damaged goods and, therefore, should be cheap !
  • Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Interesting if true: EdM planned to sack @edballsmp & swap him with @YvetteCooperMP as shadow Chancellor @LabourUncut http://t.co/EnKg7YRJy1

    Ed Milliband's position is as precarious as Cameron's. Ed Milliband has an advantage in that he has no clear test prior to GE 2015 whereas Cameron has Rochester. Ed Milliband just has the steady drip drip of waning authority.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Roger said:

    Lucky Guy


    "Left wing -hoovers up sentimentality -long term economic and social catastrophe. Right wing -decisions look selfish at the time -long term economic health and social cohesion."

    I know a girl whose job is to help look after eight severely disturbed patients. They need one to one care round the clock which requires a staff of over twenty five.

    The economic solution would be to shoot these eight people but I don't think anyone's got the heart.

    No, the economic solution would be to ensure that the productive side of the economy makes enough money to care for these people in the long term. Unfortunately, left wingers always end up killing the goose that lays their golden egg.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    I am seeing a lot of empty seats in Rochester for the hustings
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    isam said:

    FPT

    @SouthamObserver said:

    » show previous quotes

    So it would not actually be paid work as such.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That's the whole point isn't it? It's effectively charity but it gives a person who is incapable of getting a job that pays the minimum wage, a sense of purpose, and makes them happy for a while

    We are talking about mentally handicapped people who are basically children in a grown ups body doing menial tasks such as gardening to give their life a bit of variety, and someone giving them a token score or something for their effort

    I seriously cannot believe that people are accusing Freud and Cameron of being unfeeling about this. Any grown up with common sense would know the deal here. Pretty disgusting to imply these people are being exploited as cheap labour

    Truth doesn't come in to it with Labour.

    Just look at the posts from the usual suspects on here.
  • isam said:

    I am seeing a lot of empty seats in Rochester for the hustings


    Paul Francis@PaulOnPolitics · 6 mins6 minutes ago

    We are winding up now. My view? Both would be excellent potential candidates. We will find out next week #RSbyelection



    Paul Francis@PaulOnPolitics · 8 mins8 minutes ago

    I never thought I would be up here as a potential candidate so in one sense I am glad @MarkReckless has gone @KellyTolhurst
  • Owen Paterson torpedoes Coalition Climate Change Policy:

    .......I have used the last three months since leaving the Cabinet to learn more about the consequences of this policy. And what I have unearthed is alarming.

    Our current policy will cost £1,300bn up to 2050. It fails to meet the very emissions targets it is designed to meet. And it fails to provide the UK’s energy requirements.

    I will argue that current energy policy is a slave to flawed climate action. It neither reduces emissions sufficiently nor provides the energy we need as a country......



    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/10/owen-patersons-speech-on-abandoning-the-2050-climate-change-targets-full-text/
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited October 2014
    IHT!!!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    Ed Milliband's position is as precarious as Cameron's. Ed Milliband has an advantage in that he has no clear test prior to GE 2015 whereas Cameron has Rochester. Ed Milliband just has the steady drip drip of waning authority.

    No reshuffle.

    As predicted...
  • Owen Paterson torpedoes Coalition Climate Change Policy:

    .......I have used the last three months since leaving the Cabinet to learn more about the consequences of this policy. And what I have unearthed is alarming.

    Our current policy will cost £1,300bn up to 2050. It fails to meet the very emissions targets it is designed to meet. And it fails to provide the UK’s energy requirements.

    I will argue that current energy policy is a slave to flawed climate action. It neither reduces emissions sufficiently nor provides the energy we need as a country......



    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/10/owen-patersons-speech-on-abandoning-the-2050-climate-change-targets-full-text/

    What price next defector?
  • surbiton said:

    Do Tories have to be so inhuman ? Openly saying that disabled people are effectively damaged goods and, therefore, should be cheap !

    If you think Freud said that. Do remember that Freud was also a Labour Minister and his views seem to be consistent with that time.
  • First report on the hustings. No mention of how big a crowd it drew.

    http://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/tory-hopefuls-vie-to-contest-25350/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    Wasn't it the National Socialist party who executed the disabled and anyone else who differed from their ideal?
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Owen Paterson torpedoes Coalition Climate Change Policy:

    .......I have used the last three months since leaving the Cabinet to learn more about the consequences of this policy. And what I have unearthed is alarming.

    Our current policy will cost £1,300bn up to 2050. It fails to meet the very emissions targets it is designed to meet. And it fails to provide the UK’s energy requirements.

    I will argue that current energy policy is a slave to flawed climate action. It neither reduces emissions sufficiently nor provides the energy we need as a country......



    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/10/owen-patersons-speech-on-abandoning-the-2050-climate-change-targets-full-text/

    What price next defector?
    Zero. I think he's:
    1. Letting off steam after being obliged to parrot the party line
    2. Getting ready for the post-election leadership campaign.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Owen Paterson torpedoes Coalition Climate Change Policy:

    .......I have used the last three months since leaving the Cabinet to learn more about the consequences of this policy. And what I have unearthed is alarming.

    Our current policy will cost £1,300bn up to 2050. It fails to meet the very emissions targets it is designed to meet. And it fails to provide the UK’s energy requirements.

    I will argue that current energy policy is a slave to flawed climate action. It neither reduces emissions sufficiently nor provides the energy we need as a country......



    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/10/owen-patersons-speech-on-abandoning-the-2050-climate-change-targets-full-text/

    What price next defector?
    Zero. I think he's:
    1. Letting off steam after being obliged to parrot the party line
    2. Getting ready for the post-election leadership campaign.
    Liam Halligan (@LiamHalligan)
    15/10/2014 19:50
    Mention of UKIP brings thunderous applause at Owen Paterson lecture. UKIP policy is to repeal CC Act - might drag more votes from Tories
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    surbiton said:

    Do Tories have to be so inhuman ? Openly saying that disabled people are effectively damaged goods and, therefore, should be cheap !

    If you genuinely believe that I pity you.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    Owen Paterson torpedoes Coalition Climate Change Policy:

    .......I have used the last three months since leaving the Cabinet to learn more about the consequences of this policy. And what I have unearthed is alarming.

    Our current policy will cost £1,300bn up to 2050. It fails to meet the very emissions targets it is designed to meet. And it fails to provide the UK’s energy requirements.

    I will argue that current energy policy is a slave to flawed climate action. It neither reduces emissions sufficiently nor provides the energy we need as a country......



    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/10/owen-patersons-speech-on-abandoning-the-2050-climate-change-targets-full-text/

    What price next defector?
    Could Cameron be that lucky? Nah...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    First report on the hustings. No mention of how big a crowd it drew.

    http://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/tory-hopefuls-vie-to-contest-25350/

    Not full up

    38 Degrees (@38_degrees)
    15/10/2014 19:45
    The meeting has started in #rochester and Strood to pick the Conservative candidate for the byelection pic.twitter.com/yKXsGKf9Bf
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    HYUFD said:

    Wasn't it the National Socialist party who executed the disabled and anyone else who differed from their ideal?

    Eugenics was quite popular all over the place.

    I believe the USA had a policy of sterilising mentally handicapped people up to the 1960s.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
  • I listened to a part of the PMQs and heard the usual distractions about minor local matters (I missed the Freud point). The major issues of the economy get squeezed out at times like this. Labour as headed by Ed Miliband do not want any attention on the economy and use these distraction politics in a modern form of bread and circuses. "Look here, this tiny corner has something terrible, shock, horror"
    Meanwhile the Chinese carry on eating our lunch, dinner and breakfast... And thousands of children carry on being abused under our council/police's noses and Freud gets set up as something worse than a murdering peado. Where is the sense of importance?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Quick question. I'm after some suggestions for Swing and 20s style jazz. I've been recommended to Clarence "Frogman" Henry for 50s stuff. This isn't a genre I'm terribly familiar with. I love Frogman's (I Don't Know Why) But I Do.

    All suggestions most welcome. Just artist names or great tracks are fine.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    isam said:

    FPT

    @SouthamObserver said:

    » show previous quotes

    So it would not actually be paid work as such.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That's the whole point isn't it? It's effectively charity but it gives a person who is incapable of getting a job that pays the minimum wage, a sense of purpose, and makes them happy for a while

    We are talking about mentally handicapped people who are basically children in a grown ups body doing menial tasks such as gardening to give their life a bit of variety, and someone giving them a token score or something for their effort

    I seriously cannot believe that people are accusing Freud and Cameron of being unfeeling about this. Any grown up with common sense would know the deal here. Pretty disgusting to imply these people are being exploited as cheap labour

    Reading the responses on here I am not sure it is the point. If it is about what is essentially charity then I agree with you. But from what a lot of posters on here are saying it's about paying someone less because economically their contribution does not merit the minimum wage. My argument is that employers offer jobs because they need to be done and for no other reason. And if they need to be done they should be paid the minimum wage, at least. The alternative would be disabled people getting jobs at the expense of able bodied people because they can be paid less and, perhaps, beefed up to minimum wage by the government.

    A semi related point might be interns. My Foundation has 2 internships a year (6 month contracts). Because of the nature of the role and the learning opportunity we could easily fill them at zero cost - but we choose to pay the interns a reasonable wage because it is the right thing to do.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    surbiton said:

    Do Tories have to be so inhuman ? Openly saying that disabled people are effectively damaged goods and, therefore, should be cheap !

    Didn't he just rather clumsily suggest a way that people otherwise unable to find work may be subsidised so that they can find it?

    Sounds rather socialist to me.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    AnotherDave Wrong, but not quite the same as murdering them
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    HYUFD said:

    Wasn't it the National Socialist party who executed the disabled and anyone else who differed from their ideal?

    It's OK, I think they'll die off naturally when we are through with eviscerating the NHS. Bupa don't do pre existing conditions.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Plato said:

    Quick question. I'm after some suggestions for Swing and 20s style jazz. I've been recommended to Clarence "Frogman" Henry for 50s stuff. This isn't a genre I'm terribly familiar with. I love Frogman's (I Don't Know Why) But I Do.

    All suggestions most welcome. Just artist names or great tracks are fine.

    There's a modern act called "pokey lafarge" that I quite like. They even get into period clothes!

    http://youtu.be/USgGfOk6yQI
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    Isam Were Patterson somehow to win a post Cameron leadership fight, given present UKIP voters perhaps switching back to the Tories and an unpopular Labour Miliband government having to still implement austerity he could have an outside chance of being PM
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808
    edited October 2014
    Funny stuff on here tonight. PB Tories accusing the left of partisan childishness. Pot meet kettle.

    And just to add to the pain, what's this in the Grauniad about the Major Government being aware of Cyril Smith's activities and turning a blind eye?

    Posting from Rouen, and very nice it is too.
  • HYUFD said:

    Wasn't it the National Socialist party who executed the disabled and anyone else who differed from their ideal?

    The Labour Party was founded by people who believed in Eugenics...... Maybe that was what spawned Freud from Labour to the current Govt?

    "The Fabians, Sidney and Beatrice Webb and their ilk were not attracted to eugenics because they briefly forgot their leftwing principles. The harder truth is that they were drawn to eugenics for what were then good, leftwing reasons. They believed in science and progress, and nothing was more cutting edge and modern than social Darwinism." Jonathan Freedland (leftie hack at the Guardian)
  • Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wasn't it the National Socialist party who executed the disabled and anyone else who differed from their ideal?

    It's OK, I think they'll die off naturally when we are through with eviscerating the NHS. Bupa don't do pre existing conditions.
    Yes they do
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Plato said:

    Quick question. I'm after some suggestions for Swing and 20s style jazz. I've been recommended to Clarence "Frogman" Henry for 50s stuff. This isn't a genre I'm terribly familiar with. I love Frogman's (I Don't Know Why) But I Do.

    All suggestions most welcome. Just artist names or great tracks are fine.

    Not exactly what you asked for, but hey...

    Federation of the Disco Pimp (BBC Commonwealth Games house band)

    https://federationofthediscopimp1.bandcamp.com

    The Fire Department

    https://thefiredepartment.bandcamp.com
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Owen Paterson torpedoes Coalition Climate Change Policy:

    .......I have used the last three months since leaving the Cabinet to learn more about the consequences of this policy. And what I have unearthed is alarming.

    Our current policy will cost £1,300bn up to 2050. It fails to meet the very emissions targets it is designed to meet. And it fails to provide the UK’s energy requirements.

    I will argue that current energy policy is a slave to flawed climate action. It neither reduces emissions sufficiently nor provides the energy we need as a country......



    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/10/owen-patersons-speech-on-abandoning-the-2050-climate-change-targets-full-text/

    What price next defector?
    Another right wing ex-public school Tory?

    Yep, that should help the image; and goodbye Mr Farage: you are no longer needed...
  • I don't want to get into the "I know more disabled people than you" auction, but I've seen the issue at close hand and I'd venture some comments. The offence (and perhaps one reason for the copious apologies) relates partly to the form of expression - to say some disabled people aren't "worth" £2/hour doesn't sound sympathetic. Perhaps he didn't intend to put it like that.

    But the underlying issue is the same as we had over the minimum wage itself. It's always been true (for non-disabled people too) that some people who can't get a job at minimum wage rates could get it for, say, £1/hour, undercutting someone who does expect the minimum wage. It's also true that some jobs are only profitable at £1/hour and at minimum wage rates aren't done at all. Whether these jobs should be re-created at taxpayers' expense as Freud was suggesting is doubtful, and he seemed to be offering the idea off the cuff without really thinking it through. The argument for the minimum wage is that there should be a floor below which jobs are not offered, with the effort going into support and retraining rather than subsidising a non-job.

    The problem is that once you start creating exceptions, the whole concept is undermined, since people start to feel they have to offer to work for less, in order to avoid being undercut. The Adam Smith Institute, I believe, disapproves of the minimum wage, on the grounds that it interferes with the free market, as indeed it does. However, that's not a mainstream position for any of the main parties (does UKIP have a view?), and the main reason that Cameron has distanced himself at once is that the Conservatives' conversion to the concept is seen as less than whole-hearted, which reinforces their problem of being seen as only about the rich. Whether or not there ought to be majority support for Adam Smith-style free markets, there simply isn't, and Cameron knows it.

    Just logged on to see Nick's post. Missed all the hoo-ha today.

    Great that you still get eloquent posts like the above from time to time on PB, for free.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    TCPB An interesting thought
  • HYUFD said:

    Isam Were Patterson somehow to win a post Cameron leadership fight, given present UKIP voters perhaps switching back to the Tories and an unpopular Labour Miliband government having to still implement austerity he could have an outside chance of being PM

    He belongs in UKIP, it's his natural home
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    IshmaelX Even the US provides Medicaid for the disabled
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited October 2014

    There's a modern act called "pokey lafarge" that I quite like. They even get into period clothes!

    It's so long ago that I had forgotten about it, but I gigged with these guys in a previous life...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0um-0wCdRd0

    https://soundcloud.com/tallulahgoodtimes/swangyothang2
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    Good for you Charles, the more paid internships we have the better
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited October 2014

    Owen Paterson torpedoes Coalition Climate Change Policy:

    .......I have used the last three months since leaving the Cabinet to learn more about the consequences of this policy. And what I have unearthed is alarming.

    Our current policy will cost £1,300bn up to 2050. It fails to meet the very emissions targets it is designed to meet. And it fails to provide the UK’s energy requirements.

    I will argue that current energy policy is a slave to flawed climate action. It neither reduces emissions sufficiently nor provides the energy we need as a country......



    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/10/owen-patersons-speech-on-abandoning-the-2050-climate-change-targets-full-text/

    What price next defector?
    Unfortunately i cannot find a breakdown of the Euro election results for North Shropshire. The best we have is the .Euro result for Shropshire as a whole which has 5 constituencies. UKIP won the county in the Euros but only by 1 point

    UKIP 33%
    Con 32%
    Lab 14%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Other 5%

    That said Paterson has nearly a 16,000 majority. How much of that is personal support is anyone's guess.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wasn't it the National Socialist party who executed the disabled and anyone else who differed from their ideal?

    It's OK, I think they'll die off naturally when we are through with eviscerating the NHS. Bupa don't do pre existing conditions.
    Yes they do
    At a price, sometimes they will.

    They also refuse to cover chronic conditions...

    BUPA are quite well known for weaseling out of covering conditions. A number of other companies offer much better packages for the money.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Many thanx! I'm really in the dark here - any particular tracks you like to get me started?

    I loathe most jazz, but the whole Prohibition era sound really gets me.

    Plato said:

    Quick question. I'm after some suggestions for Swing and 20s style jazz. I've been recommended to Clarence "Frogman" Henry for 50s stuff. This isn't a genre I'm terribly familiar with. I love Frogman's (I Don't Know Why) But I Do.

    All suggestions most welcome. Just artist names or great tracks are fine.

    There's a modern act called "pokey lafarge" that I quite like. They even get into period clothes!

    http://youtu.be/USgGfOk6yQI
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    HYUFD said:

    AnotherDave Wrong, but not quite the same as murdering them

    I think the fabians did recommend killing, the old, long-term unemployed and 'unfit'.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Cameron's Tories think disabled workers are worth less than the minimum wage.

    The rest is froth.
  • Labour Majority Nailed On??????

    Lord Ashcroft‏@LordAshcroft·1 hr1 hour ago
    More marginal seats polling will be released tomorrow at http://lordashcroftpolls.com #dontmiss
  • I don't want to get into the "I know more disabled people than you" auction, but I've seen the issue at close hand and I'd venture some comments. The offence (and perhaps one reason for the copious apologies) relates partly to the form of expression - to say some disabled people aren't "worth" £2/hour doesn't sound sympathetic. Perhaps he didn't intend to put it like that.

    But the underlying issue is the same as we had over the minimum wage itself. It's always been true (for non-disabled people too) that some people who can't get a job at minimum wage rates could get it for, say, £1/hour, undercutting someone who does expect the minimum wage. It's also true that some jobs are only profitable at £1/hour and at minimum wage rates aren't done at all. Whether these jobs should be re-created at taxpayers' expense as Freud was suggesting is doubtful, and he seemed to be offering the idea off the cuff without really thinking it through. The argument for the minimum wage is that there should be a floor below which jobs are not offered, with the effort going into support and retraining rather than subsidising a non-job.

    The problem is that once you start creating exceptions, the whole concept is undermined, since people start to feel they have to offer to work for less, in order to avoid being undercut. The Adam Smith Institute, I believe, disapproves of the minimum wage, on the grounds that it interferes with the free market, as indeed it does. However, that's not a mainstream position for any of the main parties (does UKIP have a view?), and the main reason that Cameron has distanced himself at once is that the Conservatives' conversion to the concept is seen as less than whole-hearted, which reinforces their problem of being seen as only about the rich. Whether or not there ought to be majority support for Adam Smith-style free markets, there simply isn't, and Cameron knows it.

    Just logged on to see Nick's post. Missed all the hoo-ha today.

    Great that you still get eloquent posts like the above from time to time on PB, for free.
    Just a shame it's utter bollocks.

    In 2003 Labour supported some companies offering £4 PER DAY to people with mental health problems to man assembly lines. Nick was an MP then (I think), did he oppose that policy?
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893

    Labour Majority Nailed On??????

    Lord Ashcroft‏@LordAshcroft·1 hr1 hour ago
    More marginal seats polling will be released tomorrow at http://lordashcroftpolls.com #dontmiss

    Probably going further into Tory held seats.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    Nigel4England He would hope to lead a Tory UKIP alliance and then merge the 2 I would imagine
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808
    Owen Paterson is a complete idiot. The worst Environment Minister ever. Knew it all, and based on no more than what he and his chums nattered about over their stirrup cups, exhibited general ignorance of any more authoritative sources. The Tories would frankly be well rid of him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    Another Dave Puts Beatrix Potter in a whole new light
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Interesting if true: EdM planned to sack @edballsmp & swap him with @YvetteCooperMP as shadow Chancellor @LabourUncut http://t.co/EnKg7YRJy1

    They really should. Balls is an even worse communicator than Miliband (even I cannot bear to hear one of Balls's interviews in that irritating-as-fuck tone of voice). Cooper is not perfect but she is an improvement in that respect.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Hugh said:

    Cameron's Tories think disabled workers are worth less than the minimum wage.

    The rest is froth.

    The jobs market thinks many disabled people are unemployable at the minimum wage. That is the fact that the Labour shriekers refuse to confront, and why they were happy to leave them to rot on benefits; a neo-Victorian attitude whereby if you couldn't see the problem then it might as well not exist.
  • Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wasn't it the National Socialist party who executed the disabled and anyone else who differed from their ideal?

    It's OK, I think they'll die off naturally when we are through with eviscerating the NHS. Bupa don't do pre existing conditions.
    Yes they do
    At a price, sometimes they will.

    They also refuse to cover chronic conditions...

    BUPA are quite well known for weaseling out of covering conditions. A number of other companies offer much better packages for the money.

    Firstly I should declare that I am a broker in the private healthcare field.

    No insurer covers chronic conditions however they do cover acute flare ups, being hospitalized etc. certainly agree that other companies offer better value for money than Bupa though, as they have now gone down the open referral/ managed care route with preferred consultants who work within their price scale.

    If you choose to use a consultant outside of their preferred list you will be subject to a shortfall on the claim.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,586
    Hugh said:

    Cameron's Tories think disabled workers are worth less than the minimum wage.

    The rest is froth.

    I think its more Tories think disabled workers who want to work should have the ability to work rather than just sitting at home getting more depressed.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Thanx - more the merrier.

    I downloaded something the other day that's been clearly muddled up with something else and is very odd German grunge - like Bauhaus but really slow and sultry . I think Shazam is going to be the only way to discover what it is - I rather like it.
    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    Quick question. I'm after some suggestions for Swing and 20s style jazz. I've been recommended to Clarence "Frogman" Henry for 50s stuff. This isn't a genre I'm terribly familiar with. I love Frogman's (I Don't Know Why) But I Do.

    All suggestions most welcome. Just artist names or great tracks are fine.

    Not exactly what you asked for, but hey...

    Federation of the Disco Pimp (BBC Commonwealth Games house band)

    https://federationofthediscopimp1.bandcamp.com

    The Fire Department

    https://thefiredepartment.bandcamp.com
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808
    eek said:

    Hugh said:

    Cameron's Tories think disabled workers are worth less than the minimum wage.

    The rest is froth.

    I think its more Tories think disabled workers who want to work should have the ability to work rather than just sitting at home getting more depressed.
    But only if they can be exploited while they're doing it apparently. Still the nasty party!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Plato said:

    Many thanx! I'm really in the dark here - any particular tracks you like to get me started?

    I loathe most jazz, but the whole Prohibition era sound really gets me.

    Plato said:

    Quick question. I'm after some suggestions for Swing and 20s style jazz. I've been recommended to Clarence "Frogman" Henry for 50s stuff. This isn't a genre I'm terribly familiar with. I love Frogman's (I Don't Know Why) But I Do.

    All suggestions most welcome. Just artist names or great tracks are fine.

    There's a modern act called "pokey lafarge" that I quite like. They even get into period clothes!

    http://youtu.be/USgGfOk6yQI
    How about this song by the Correspondents; sort of swing/jungle/ with a dubstep influence;

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=K94-VLtBkdxoofGB0Aw&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MZukiRrYROA&ved=0CCAQyCkwAA&usg=AFQjCNFheWN0ThgiPW8ll5pY2Xa0T5-l2w

    Belleruche are also good; though not quite so wierd.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    Hugh said:

    Cameron's Tories think disabled workers are worth less than the minimum wage.

    The rest is froth.

    The jobs market thinks many disabled people are unemployable at the minimum wage. That is the fact that the Labour shriekers refuse to confront, and why they were happy to leave them to rot on benefits; a neo-Victorian attitude whereby if you couldn't see the problem then it might as well not exist.
    The jobs "market" is subject to the laws of the land. Disabled workers are worth the legal minimum wage, no ifs no buts. That your Party thinks otherwise is frankly disgusting.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    http://order-order.com/2014/10/15/labour-backed-4-a-day-pay-for-mentally-disabled/


    hmmmmmm


    comments from the usual suspects - no doubt they all called for a sacking at the time... or not.

    Sean T has this exactly right - vile bunch
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,034
    Conclusion: Hugh is a simple troll (or so dim or tribalist that it's impossible to communicate with him).

    Ergo, not worth engaging with him. The discussion around the subject is already easily sufficient to expose his facile posturing for what it is.

    (surbiton appears to be trying to copy him, but less effectively).
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wasn't it the National Socialist party who executed the disabled and anyone else who differed from their ideal?

    It's OK, I think they'll die off naturally when we are through with eviscerating the NHS. Bupa don't do pre existing conditions.
    Yes they do
    At a price, sometimes they will.

    They also refuse to cover chronic conditions...

    BUPA are quite well known for weaseling out of covering conditions. A number of other companies offer much better packages for the money.

    Firstly I should declare that I am a broker in the private healthcare field.

    No insurer covers chronic conditions however they do cover acute flare ups, being hospitalized etc. certainly agree that other companies offer better value for money than Bupa though, as they have now gone down the open referral/ managed care route with preferred consultants who work within their price scale.

    If you choose to use a consultant outside of their preferred list you will be subject to a shortfall on the claim.
    BUPA and similar managed schemes have no data on quality of care, Consultants are chosen and allocated on price. It combines the central control of the NHS with the cost of the private.

    Mind you private healthcare can cost more than money:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2781712/Drunk-doctor-C-section-death-British-mum-Anaesthetist-three-times-drink-drive-limit-wrongly-inserted-tube-causing-mother-suffer-heart-attack.html#comments-2781712
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    Conclusion: Hugh is a simple troll (or so dim or tribalist that it's impossible to communicate with him).

    Ergo, not worth engaging with him. The discussion around the subject is already easily sufficient to expose his facile posturing for what it is.

    (surbiton appears to be trying to copy him, but less effectively).

    Communicate away pal.

    I think that our country's legal minimum wage should apply to disabled workers as much as anyone else.

    You, and Cameron's Tories disagree. Fair enough. You've yet to make a decent case though.
  • Owen Paterson is a complete idiot. The worst Environment Minister ever. Knew it all, and based on no more than what he and his chums nattered about over their stirrup cups, exhibited general ignorance of any more authoritative sources. The Tories would frankly be well rid of him.

    So your a fan of George Monbiot then? Oh well there had to be one........
  • eekeek Posts: 28,586
    edited October 2014
    Hugh said:

    Hugh said:

    Cameron's Tories think disabled workers are worth less than the minimum wage.

    The rest is froth.

    The jobs market thinks many disabled people are unemployable at the minimum wage. That is the fact that the Labour shriekers refuse to confront, and why they were happy to leave them to rot on benefits; a neo-Victorian attitude whereby if you couldn't see the problem then it might as well not exist.
    The jobs "market" is subject to the laws of the land. Disabled workers are worth the legal minimum wage, no ifs no buts. That your Party thinks otherwise is frankly disgusting.
    But in a competitive jobs market there will always be someone more suitable for the job who will get it. Hence you end up (as the person who asked the question knows) there are a set of mentally ill people who will never ever get a job at the minimum wage.

    So how do you give them the personal dignity people know that you get from working will never be available to them when unless you do something they will continue to look for work, fail to get it and continue to get more depressed.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Hugh said:

    Hugh said:

    Cameron's Tories think disabled workers are worth less than the minimum wage.

    The rest is froth.

    The jobs market thinks many disabled people are unemployable at the minimum wage. That is the fact that the Labour shriekers refuse to confront, and why they were happy to leave them to rot on benefits; a neo-Victorian attitude whereby if you couldn't see the problem then it might as well not exist.
    The jobs "market" is subject to the laws of the land. Disabled workers are worth the legal minimum wage, no ifs no buts. That your Party thinks otherwise is frankly disgusting.
    No it isn't.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited October 2014
    BBC James Lansdale comes out to bat for the Tories and Lord Freud... take that you rabid desperate redster trolls.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Hugh said:

    Conclusion: Hugh is a simple troll (or so dim or tribalist that it's impossible to communicate with him).

    Ergo, not worth engaging with him. The discussion around the subject is already easily sufficient to expose his facile posturing for what it is.

    (surbiton appears to be trying to copy him, but less effectively).

    Communicate away pal.

    I think that our country's legal minimum wage should apply to disabled workers as much as anyone else.

    You, and Cameron's Tories disagree. Fair enough. You've yet to make a decent case though.
    Howabout the worker gets the minimum wage (or more) and the employer gets some of it back as a tax break or credit.

    Everyone goes home happy...
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    Plato said:

    Quick question. I'm after some suggestions for Swing and 20s style jazz. I've been recommended to Clarence "Frogman" Henry for 50s stuff. This isn't a genre I'm terribly familiar with. I love Frogman's (I Don't Know Why) But I Do.

    All suggestions most welcome. Just artist names or great tracks are fine.


    Not sure if this is what you are looking for as I am crap at classifying music by genre

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IqH3uliwJY
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Hugh said:

    Conclusion: Hugh is a simple troll (or so dim or tribalist that it's impossible to communicate with him).

    Ergo, not worth engaging with him. The discussion around the subject is already easily sufficient to expose his facile posturing for what it is.

    (surbiton appears to be trying to copy him, but less effectively).

    Communicate away pal.

    I think that our country's legal minimum wage should apply to disabled workers as much as anyone else.

    You, and Cameron's Tories disagree. Fair enough. You've yet to make a decent case though.
    It does apply to disabled workers, you moron.

    Have you ever had a job by the way?
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Plato said:

    Many thanx! I'm really in the dark here - any particular tracks you like to get me started?

    I loathe most jazz, but the whole Prohibition era sound really gets me.

    Plato said:

    Quick question. I'm after some suggestions for Swing and 20s style jazz. I've been recommended to Clarence "Frogman" Henry for 50s stuff. This isn't a genre I'm terribly familiar with. I love Frogman's (I Don't Know Why) But I Do.

    All suggestions most welcome. Just artist names or great tracks are fine.

    There's a modern act called "pokey lafarge" that I quite like. They even get into period clothes!

    http://youtu.be/USgGfOk6yQI
    'central time', 'hard times come and go', 'move out of town' but these are new songs, not period covers.

    Another modern jazzy performer is Melody Gardot. 'Your heart is as black as night' is my current favourite from her.

    Sinead O'Connor did a super album of covers called 'am i not your girl'. From that album 'bewitched bothered and bewildered', 'gloomy sunday', 'black coffee' (but these are all downbeat numbers)

    Sierra Hull has a nice gypsy jazz type song. "best buy"
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Great - not very up on Jungle/Dubstep at all. I think a read up on Wiki will help me here once I get a feel for each.

    I have enough trouble trying to pigeon hole/genre up just my Grunge/Indie/Alternative/Punk/Metal stuff - I've had to collapse a load of sub-genres down to make my playlists less unwieldy. I feel like one of those Whitehall civil servants who spend their lives centralising/decentralising the same things in an effort to make them work - and failing!

    Plato said:

    Many thanx! I'm really in the dark here - any particular tracks you like to get me started?

    I loathe most jazz, but the whole Prohibition era sound really gets me.

    Plato said:

    Quick question. I'm after some suggestions for Swing and 20s style jazz. I've been recommended to Clarence "Frogman" Henry for 50s stuff. This isn't a genre I'm terribly familiar with. I love Frogman's (I Don't Know Why) But I Do.

    All suggestions most welcome. Just artist names or great tracks are fine.

    There's a modern act called "pokey lafarge" that I quite like. They even get into period clothes!

    http://youtu.be/USgGfOk6yQI
    How about this song by the Correspondents; sort of swing/jungle/ with a dubstep influence;

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=K94-VLtBkdxoofGB0Aw&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MZukiRrYROA&ved=0CCAQyCkwAA&usg=AFQjCNFheWN0ThgiPW8ll5pY2Xa0T5-l2w

    Belleruche are also good; though not quite so wierd.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    The faux outrage from some on here just exposes what the ambush was all about,try and avoid any focus on Ed 's performance and lack of Labour policy. To be fair it has been effective in that regard, for 48 hours Ed is off the hook, what then?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    Hugh said:

    Conclusion: Hugh is a simple troll (or so dim or tribalist that it's impossible to communicate with him).

    Ergo, not worth engaging with him. The discussion around the subject is already easily sufficient to expose his facile posturing for what it is.

    (surbiton appears to be trying to copy him, but less effectively).

    Communicate away pal.

    I think that our country's legal minimum wage should apply to disabled workers as much as anyone else.

    You, and Cameron's Tories disagree. Fair enough. You've yet to make a decent case though.
    Howabout the worker gets the minimum wage (or more) and the employer gets some of it back as a tax break or credit.

    Everyone goes home happy...
    Don't try and bring sense into this Mr Sox. You will spoil some peoples' fun. At least I presume it is fun.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    Hugh said:

    Conclusion: Hugh is a simple troll (or so dim or tribalist that it's impossible to communicate with him).

    Ergo, not worth engaging with him. The discussion around the subject is already easily sufficient to expose his facile posturing for what it is.

    (surbiton appears to be trying to copy him, but less effectively).

    Communicate away pal.

    I think that our country's legal minimum wage should apply to disabled workers as much as anyone else.

    You, and Cameron's Tories disagree. Fair enough. You've yet to make a decent case though.
    Howabout the worker gets the minimum wage (or more) and the employer gets some of it back as a tax break or credit.

    Everyone goes home happy...
    Sounds like a debate worth having.

    Unfortunate, then, that Cameron's Tories are saying that disabled workers are "worth" less than the legal minimum.

    Of course, if Cameron's Tories really don't posses this mentality, Freud would be sacked by now. That he's still in a job speaks volumes about Cameron's Tories.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Hugh said:

    Hugh said:

    Conclusion: Hugh is a simple troll (or so dim or tribalist that it's impossible to communicate with him).

    Ergo, not worth engaging with him. The discussion around the subject is already easily sufficient to expose his facile posturing for what it is.

    (surbiton appears to be trying to copy him, but less effectively).

    Communicate away pal.

    I think that our country's legal minimum wage should apply to disabled workers as much as anyone else.

    You, and Cameron's Tories disagree. Fair enough. You've yet to make a decent case though.
    Howabout the worker gets the minimum wage (or more) and the employer gets some of it back as a tax break or credit.

    Everyone goes home happy...
    Sounds like a debate worth having.

    Unfortunate, then, that Cameron's Tories are saying that disabled workers are "worth" less than the legal minimum.

    Of course, if Cameron's Tories really don't posses this mentality, Freud would be sacked by now. That he's still in a job speaks volumes about Cameron's Tories.
    As Tim tribute acts go, it has to be said, you really are rather shit. You need to up your game considerably.
  • Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wasn't it the National Socialist party who executed the disabled and anyone else who differed from their ideal?

    It's OK, I think they'll die off naturally when we are through with eviscerating the NHS. Bupa don't do pre existing conditions.
    Yes they do
    At a price, sometimes they will.

    They also refuse to cover chronic conditions...

    BUPA are quite well known for weaseling out of covering conditions. A number of other companies offer much better packages for the money.

    Firstly I should declare that I am a broker in the private healthcare field.

    No insurer covers chronic conditions however they do cover acute flare ups, being hospitalized etc. certainly agree that other companies offer better value for money than Bupa though, as they have now gone down the open referral/ managed care route with preferred consultants who work within their price scale.

    If you choose to use a consultant outside of their preferred list you will be subject to a shortfall on the claim.
    BUPA and similar managed schemes have no data on quality of care, Consultants are chosen and allocated on price. It combines the central control of the NHS with the cost of the private.

    Mind you private healthcare can cost more than money:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2781712/Drunk-doctor-C-section-death-British-mum-Anaesthetist-three-times-drink-drive-limit-wrongly-inserted-tube-causing-mother-suffer-heart-attack.html#comments-2781712
    That's not the case with all private insurers, for example Pruhealth operate a fee maxima policy, and Bupa only go down the open referral route on large company schemes.


    The last point has nothing to do with the insurer, horrible as it maybe.
  • Hugh said:

    Hugh said:

    Cameron's Tories think disabled workers are worth less than the minimum wage.

    The rest is froth.

    The jobs market thinks many disabled people are unemployable at the minimum wage. That is the fact that the Labour shriekers refuse to confront, and why they were happy to leave them to rot on benefits; a neo-Victorian attitude whereby if you couldn't see the problem then it might as well not exist.
    The jobs "market" is subject to the laws of the land. Disabled workers are worth the legal minimum wage, no ifs no buts. That your Party thinks otherwise is frankly disgusting.
    The jobs market is also subject to the laws of economics which means that if severely disabled workers are less productive they are unlikely to be considered for vacancies without some sort of government subsidy.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Ishmael_X said:

    Hugh said:

    Conclusion: Hugh is a simple troll (or so dim or tribalist that it's impossible to communicate with him).

    Ergo, not worth engaging with him. The discussion around the subject is already easily sufficient to expose his facile posturing for what it is.

    (surbiton appears to be trying to copy him, but less effectively).

    Communicate away pal.

    I think that our country's legal minimum wage should apply to disabled workers as much as anyone else.

    You, and Cameron's Tories disagree. Fair enough. You've yet to make a decent case though.
    It does apply to disabled workers, you moron.

    Have you ever had a job by the way?
    Anyone know Lord Fs views on morons

    Should they be entitled to minimum wage?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That's interesting. Thanks.

    Do you know any Oscar Peterson? Another recommendation I've been given.
    Roger said:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Hmm

    I reckon about 6/10 for both Miliband and Cameron in that lot.
  • Edin_RokzEdin_Rokz Posts: 516
    Interesting thoughts here tonight. Makes a nice change ;-)

    However, to get to Freud's idea, if people can not do a job of work but are willing to accept work at below the national wage then to have their money topped up by the earning taxpayer opens up another argument.

    People who earn below the minimum average, have children, or act as carers, etc., etc (I am sure most people reading this site know where I am going) have their wages topped by benefits and tax reductions to bring them up to a minimum acceptable standard of living.

    Who benefits? Well, lets be honest, the front line gets fed, but, the company owners and shareholders benefit more by keeping the costs down. Employment in most companies is the major expense.

    Who are the losers, er!, anyone who pays tax and doesn't have their wages/money/bonuses/shares/premiums paid into an overseas hidden bank account, about 99% of the population of the UK.

    I think change may be coming as more and more people realise that they are being taken for fools.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    Ishmael_X said:

    Hugh said:

    Conclusion: Hugh is a simple troll (or so dim or tribalist that it's impossible to communicate with him).

    Ergo, not worth engaging with him. The discussion around the subject is already easily sufficient to expose his facile posturing for what it is.

    (surbiton appears to be trying to copy him, but less effectively).

    Communicate away pal.

    I think that our country's legal minimum wage should apply to disabled workers as much as anyone else.

    You, and Cameron's Tories disagree. Fair enough. You've yet to make a decent case though.
    It does apply to disabled workers, you moron.

    Have you ever had a job by the way?
    Anyone know Lord Fs views on morons

    Should they be entitled to minimum wage?
    Two quid an hour.

    Welcome to the Tory economic recovery.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wasn't it the National Socialist party who executed the disabled and anyone else who differed from their ideal?

    It's OK, I think they'll die off naturally when we are through with eviscerating the NHS. Bupa don't do pre existing conditions.
    Yes they do
    At a price, sometimes they will.

    They also refuse to cover chronic conditions...

    BUPA are quite well known for weaseling out of covering conditions. A number of other companies offer much better packages for the money.

    Firstly I should declare that I am a broker in the private healthcare field.

    No insurer covers chronic conditions however they do cover acute flare ups, being hospitalized etc. certainly agree that other companies offer better value for money than Bupa though, as they have now gone down the open referral/ managed care route with preferred consultants who work within their price scale.

    If you choose to use a consultant outside of their preferred list you will be subject to a shortfall on the claim.
    BUPA and similar managed schemes have no data on quality of care, Consultants are chosen and allocated on price. It combines the central control of the NHS with the cost of the private.

    Mind you private healthcare can cost more than money:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2781712/Drunk-doctor-C-section-death-British-mum-Anaesthetist-three-times-drink-drive-limit-wrongly-inserted-tube-causing-mother-suffer-heart-attack.html#comments-2781712
    That's not the case with all private insurers, for example Pruhealth operate a fee maxima policy, and Bupa only go down the open referral route on large company schemes.


    The last point has nothing to do with the insurer, horrible as it maybe.
    A very sad case; but illustrates how other healthcare systems have their own issues.

    The Private Health providers in the UK rely on the NHS to back them up for emergency work, obstetrics, paediatrics and for the totality of chronic care.

    They have their place for elective care though.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Scott_P said:

    There's a modern act called "pokey lafarge" that I quite like. They even get into period clothes!

    It's so long ago that I had forgotten about it, but I gigged with these guys in a previous life...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0um-0wCdRd0

    https://soundcloud.com/tallulahgoodtimes/swangyothang2
    That's great! :-)
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    What a dire thread today's was.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited October 2014

    Two quid an hour.

    Welcome to the Tory economic recovery.

    Felt pretty sure you'd know the answer to that one.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @joeyjonessky: The @labouruncut article, whatever the rights or wrongs, is now the story @Ed_Miliband + colleagues are going to deal with for rest of week.
  • oldnatoldnat Posts: 136
    If either of the parties that you lot support gave a bugger about the severely disabled, instead of scoring points (or just making arses of yourselves) things might be considerably better.

    Yours

    Disgusted of Ythan Wells
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    saddened said:

    As Tim tribute acts go, it has to be said, you really are rather shit. You need to up your game considerably.

    Would anyone pay Hugh 2 quid an hour to post this stuff..?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Pulpstar said:

    Hmm

    I reckon about 6/10 for both Miliband and Cameron in that lot.

    I said earlier I thought Cameron edged Ed at PMQs

    I suppose as news still banging on about one of Eds questions maybe not.
This discussion has been closed.