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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » UKIP hit a record 18% from YouGov in the latest daily poll

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  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    Speedy said:

    Anorak said:

    Speedy said:

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    Just in, US Retail sales fell 0.3% in September.
    So far not looking good for the american economy.
    Coupled with the bad eurozone news, I again raise the question, what happens if the economy tanks before the next GE?

    Has Labour ever been elected when the economy is in the doldrums?
    Has any government been re-elected with the economy in the doldrums?

    And don't tell me 1992 because the economy was trying to recover after the 1990-91 recession, not slumping into a recession.
    1983, 1987.
    1983, 1987 when the economy was up is not an economy in the doldrums. (1987? with 4-5% GDP growth economic doldrums? Get serious.)
    Personal doldrums (if you are unemployed), as opposed to macroeconomic doldrums ;)
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    Anorak said:

    Speedy said:

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    Just in, US Retail sales fell 0.3% in September.
    So far not looking good for the american economy.
    Coupled with the bad eurozone news, I again raise the question, what happens if the economy tanks before the next GE?

    Has Labour ever been elected when the economy is in the doldrums?
    Has any government been re-elected with the economy in the doldrums?

    And don't tell me 1992 because the economy was trying to recover after the 1990-91 recession, not slumping into a recession.
    1983, 1987.
    1983, 1987 when the economy was up is not an economy in the doldrums. (1987? with 4-5% GDP growth economic doldrums? Get serious.)
    Personal doldrums (if you are unemployed), as opposed to macroeconomic doldrums ;)
    Indeed. Unemployment was over 10% in May 1987. That's a shit-load of families feeling the impact.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Adam Smith Institute...

    Lord Freud has been shamefully treated by Ed Miliband.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    isam said:

    Itajai said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Just thinking about voting intentions: the rise of UKIP, the steady improvement of the Greens etc.

    We may get a "PR style" breakdown in votes, next year, despite not having the voting system to match.

    Anyone have markets and odds that Westminster will abolish FPTP by 2025?

    If Labour win a majority of 32% of the vote why would they abolish FPTP ?
    That's a big if.
    John Curtice thinks that Sunday's Survation poll, Con 31%, Lab 31%, UKIP 25%, would result in Labour winning 253 seats, Conservatives 187, UKIP 128. That's not quite proportionate, but it would be hard to see FPTP surviving, unless the Conservatives were to collapse, like the Liberals in 1924, and the contest became Labour v UKIP.
    Sean, thanks. Do you have a link to that analysis by John?

    It was in the Mail on Sunday, so may be on their website.

    He cautioned that he was using the sub-samples. He said in theory, UKIP could fail to win a single seat, with 25%, but in practice, their vote had risen by far more than average in the South outside London.

    Thanks. UNS calculators are approaching the end of their usefulness in accurately modelling seat scores, IMHO.

    They were tosh in 2005 and 2010. Time for Baxter´s model to be put out of its misery.
    People on here doing forecasts using models from 2010 and before might as well be using the old "2 points for a win" scoring system in football to work out League tables
    That's a really good example, but not in the way you intend. The League tables really don't look that different with 2 points for a win. Arsenal would move up three places above West Ham, Swansea and Tottenham. Sunderland would move up two places above Leicester and Hull. And, um, that would be it.

    So using "2 points for a win" is actually a really good approximation for the actual league table using 3 points for a win.

    Everyone knows that all the election forecasting models are simply approximations which won't get the details right, but in a chamber of 650 seats, 532 of which are in England, the approximation is good enough to be useful. Obviously not good enough to predict the number of UKIP seats, but only trolls pretend otherwise now.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Anorak said:

    Speedy said:

    Anorak said:

    Speedy said:

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    Just in, US Retail sales fell 0.3% in September.
    So far not looking good for the american economy.
    Coupled with the bad eurozone news, I again raise the question, what happens if the economy tanks before the next GE?

    Has Labour ever been elected when the economy is in the doldrums?
    Has any government been re-elected with the economy in the doldrums?

    And don't tell me 1992 because the economy was trying to recover after the 1990-91 recession, not slumping into a recession.
    1983, 1987.
    1983, 1987 when the economy was up is not an economy in the doldrums. (1987? with 4-5% GDP growth economic doldrums? Get serious.)
    I've edited my post. It's not as black-and-white as you make out.
    An economic boom is not a doldrum, even if unemployment was high the vast majority of the voters was very happy with the economy.
    And here's the definition of doldrums from Thesaurus:

    doldrums - a state of inactivity (in business or art etc); "economic growth of less than 1% per year is considered to be economic stagnation"
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,932
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    And your suggestion is that we fold the party and tell our voters, most of whom are not ex Tories, to vote for Cameron Isn't it?


    .
    .
    .
    You're assuming that they will take more Labour than Tory?
    What? Where do you get that from?

    We can discuss the ratios if you like, but the bottom line is that Thurrock is a two horse race between Labour and UKIP... voting Tory is a way of making losing the seat score -2 rather than -1 overall
    OK, so your assumption is that the sitting MP is not in the running, that it's between the 2010 2nd placed Party (Labour) and the 2010 5th placed party (UKIP) - almost 30% behind.
    If you are basing your assumptions on the Euros or Locals, then that's a bit dangerous, General Elections are different.
    As it happens the Euros and locals have been quite a good indicator of the three by elections since I think (Newark, Clacton & Heywood and Middleton)

    But on this specific seat...

    I live half a mile away, and know the area quite well... not necessarily a big deal, but UKIP won a ward in my constituency that is very similar to Thurrock last year so I decided to look into it more closely

    I made an attempt at modelling each constituency 18 months ago based on 2010 results and it came out as one of the top 10 seats for UKIP. Doesn't really mean much, I could be mistaken . But I have been in the odds compiling game 15 years, so should know vaguely what I am doing

    I backed UKIP to win the seat at 16/1, UKIP then won the Euros and local elections in the seat quite easily

    Ashcroft polling (from 4 or 5 months ago when UKIP were nowhere near as strong) has them well ahead

    UKIP have one of their top men (Head of policy) who is also a local lad, as the candidate, and have been canvassing the area extensively for 6 months already

    I have spoken with the UKIP people in the area and they say its a two horse race.. the Tories aren't even really trying

    UKIP are now 5/4 to win the seat, and I think its still value

    If they win Thursdays by election, it is more or less all over

    Feel free to disagree, but I am pretty confident that voting Tory in Thurrock makes a Tory government less likely
    Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Plus, you've put your money where your mouth is, so good luck. Mind you if it's 10th most winnable for UKIP, do you think they will win > 10?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Speedy said:

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    Just in, US Retail sales fell 0.3% in September.
    So far not looking good for the american economy.
    Coupled with the bad eurozone news, I again raise the question, what happens if the economy tanks before the next GE?

    Has Labour ever been elected when the economy is in the doldrums?
    Has any government been re-elected with the economy in the doldrums?

    And don't tell me 1992 because the economy was trying to recover after the 1990-91 recession, not slumping into a recession.
    1931, though that's a bit of a fiddle as the government seeking re-election was not the one that was formed after the previous GE.

    Oct 1974, though that's also questionable as it was basically a re-run of Feb 1974 rather than a judgement on Wilson's third term.

    1992. Yes, it was trying to recover but the original quote was 'in the doldrums' and that was probably an accurate description, even if there'd just been a couple of unexpected (and, as it turned out, rather isolated) gusts of wind.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    Speedy said:

    Anorak said:

    Speedy said:

    Anorak said:

    Speedy said:

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    Just in, US Retail sales fell 0.3% in September.
    So far not looking good for the american economy.
    Coupled with the bad eurozone news, I again raise the question, what happens if the economy tanks before the next GE?

    Has Labour ever been elected when the economy is in the doldrums?
    Has any government been re-elected with the economy in the doldrums?

    And don't tell me 1992 because the economy was trying to recover after the 1990-91 recession, not slumping into a recession.
    1983, 1987.
    1983, 1987 when the economy was up is not an economy in the doldrums. (1987? with 4-5% GDP growth economic doldrums? Get serious.)
    I've edited my post. It's not as black-and-white as you make out.
    An economic boom is not a doldrum, even if unemployment was high the vast majority of the voters was very happy with the economy.
    And here's the definition of doldrums from Thesaurus:

    doldrums - a state of inactivity (in business or art etc); "economic growth of less than 1% per year is considered to be economic stagnation"
    Unemployment is also a state of inactivity ;)
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Quick question. What odds would be people give on the third largest parliamentary party after the next GE - LD / UKIP / SNP / Other?

    I only ask out of academic interest - I'm not looking to place a bet.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Speedy said:

    Anorak said:

    Speedy said:

    Anorak said:

    Speedy said:

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    Just in, US Retail sales fell 0.3% in September.
    So far not looking good for the american economy.
    Coupled with the bad eurozone news, I again raise the question, what happens if the economy tanks before the next GE?

    Has Labour ever been elected when the economy is in the doldrums?
    Has any government been re-elected with the economy in the doldrums?

    And don't tell me 1992 because the economy was trying to recover after the 1990-91 recession, not slumping into a recession.
    1983, 1987.
    1983, 1987 when the economy was up is not an economy in the doldrums. (1987? with 4-5% GDP growth economic doldrums? Get serious.)
    I've edited my post. It's not as black-and-white as you make out.
    An economic boom is not a doldrum, even if unemployment was high the vast majority of the voters was very happy with the economy.
    And here's the definition of doldrums from Thesaurus:

    doldrums - a state of inactivity (in business or art etc); "economic growth of less than 1% per year is considered to be economic stagnation"
    Sigh. GDP was driven by staggering City growth, it was not seem AT ALL outside the SE for most of the 80s.

    I'd say that 75% of the UK would have seen 'doldrums' as the Promised Land from where they were.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @charlotteahenry: Just got ridiculous labour email. Dangerously close to overplaying hand on Freud.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Itajai said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Just thinking about voting intentions: the rise of UKIP, the steady improvement of the Greens etc.

    We may get a "PR style" breakdown in votes, next year, despite not having the voting system to match.

    Anyone have markets and odds that Westminster will abolish FPTP by 2025?

    If Labour win a majority of 32% of the vote why would they abolish FPTP ?
    That's a big if.
    Sean, thanks. Do you have a link to that analysis by John?

    It was in the Mail on Sunday, so may be on their website.

    He cautioned that he was using the sub-samples. He said in theory, UKIP could fail to win a single seat, with 25%, but in practice, their vote had risen by far more than average in the South outside London.

    Thanks. UNS calculators are approaching the end of their usefulness in accurately modelling seat scores, IMHO.

    They were tosh in 2005 and 2010. Time for Baxter´s model to be put out of its misery.
    People on here doing forecasts using models from 2010 and before might as well be using the old "2 points for a win" scoring system in football to work out League tables
    That's a really good example, but not in the way you intend. The League tables really don't look that different with 2 points for a win. Arsenal would move up three places above West Ham, Swansea and Tottenham. Sunderland would move up two places above Leicester and Hull. And, um, that would be it.

    So using "2 points for a win" is actually a really good approximation for the actual league table using 3 points for a win.

    Everyone knows that all the election forecasting models are simply approximations which won't get the details right, but in a chamber of 650 seats, 532 of which are in England, the approximation is good enough to be useful. Obviously not good enough to predict the number of UKIP seats, but only trolls pretend otherwise now.
    Actually, when I wrote that I thought.. "hmm that probably wouldn't make much difference as it happens" so I worked out the last 12 years Prem tables using two points for a win... and the Champs would've been the same every time!

    So I agree, it is quite a good system, particularly for working out the big two... the electoral calculus just doesn't work for UKIP
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Thank you Mr @Bond_James_Bond‌ I've attempted to watch 2001 twice and gave in both times - I got lost at the monolith and the baby and well, all of it really.

    At least now I get the HAL references. I really ought to get myself a copy of Movie Plots For Dummies for all those I was too perplexed to finish.

    I think my view of Inception couldn't be more different to Mr Loony's. IIRC he thinks its FAB. I thought it was terrible and switched it off at about 2hrs in and wrote a very rude review of it instead.

    Godwin's law alert Klaxon

    Neil Kinnock has admitted that Labour is still seen by the public as “the incompetent party” when it comes to the economy.

    He compared Chancellor George Osborne with the Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels for the “big lie” that Labour was “not fit to govern”.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/neil-kinnock-accuses-osborne-of-behaving-like-goebbels-9795636.html

    Kinnochio's appearance reminds us that we really dodged a bullet when he blew the General Election in 1992.

    I've sort of lost track of what Kippers want at this point. A while ago I thought most would be happy with the referendum that Cameron is promising, but just don't trust him to follow through. Now, though, it seems more like they'd be unhappy with even that because they don't like the idea of the renegotiation and they don't like that the three main parties would all be campaigning to stay in.

    So, er, what exactly do they want? If renegotiation is on the table, then I think most people would be unhappy with not doing so, and as I understand it the polls back this up. Likewise I don't see how even an influential UKIP could prevent parties- or their members/donors- campaigning in a referendum for the result they want. Would that even be fair or democratic?

    Well, quite.

    UKIP at this point remind me of nothing so much as HAL9000 in 2001. HAL was programmed both to achieve the goals of the mission reliably, but also to dissemble to the crew about the goals of the mission. He resolved this dilemma by killing off the crew. He justified this by telling himself the stupid crew were only jeopardising the mission anyway.

    UKIP both wants a referendum but does not because they know they'll lose it. They resolve this dilemma by killing off the referendum by assisting Ed Miliband into power. They justify this by telling themselves that the stupid electors will only jeopardise the referendum result by voting wrong anyway.

    I tried to come up with an analogy involving Carthage but I lack the erudition.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2014

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    And your suggestion is that we fold the party and tell our voters, most of whom are not ex Tories, to vote for Cameron Isn't it?


    .
    .
    .
    You're assuming that they will take more Labour than Tory?
    What? Where do you get that from?

    We can discuss the ratios if you like, but the bottom line is that Thurrock is a two horse race between Labour and UKIP... voting Tory is a way of making losing the seat score -2 rather than -1 overall
    OK, so your assumption is that the sitting MP is not in the running, that it's between the 2010 2nd placed Party (Labour) and the 2010 5th placed party (UKIP) - almost 30% behind.
    If you are basing your assumptions on the Euros or Locals, then that's a bit dangerous, General Elections are different.
    Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Plus, you've put your money where your mouth is, so good luck. Mind you if it's 10th most winnable for UKIP, do you think they will win > 10?
    Eh?

    I didn't say it was the 10th most winnable
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    edited October 2014
    Plato said:

    It must feel very good to be a Kipper nowadays. The sun is definitely shinning on your Party right now.

    I'm still pretty chipper about the Tories prospects for GE2015 too.

    Glad I'm not a Yellow Peril supporter.

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Farage enjoys the best approval rating with Ipsos Mori.

    Mr. Farage 39% Approve, 43% Disapprove

    Mr. Cameron 38%, 55%.

    Mr. Miliband 25%, 59%.

    Mr. Clegg 25%, 62%.

    The Liberal Democrats seem to add the words "fairer society" into every piece of news / initiative they announce.

    Sadly, that ship has long since sailed. Why weren't they thinking of a "fairer society" back in 2010 when they so eagerly wanted to get into bed with the toxic Tories?

    For that alone, they will suffer at GE 2015.

    Labour still on course to form the next Government (even with Ed at the helm!)
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Anorak said:

    Speedy said:

    Anorak said:

    Speedy said:

    Anorak said:

    Speedy said:

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    Just in, US Retail sales fell 0.3% in September.
    So far not looking good for the american economy.
    Coupled with the bad eurozone news, I again raise the question, what happens if the economy tanks before the next GE?

    Has Labour ever been elected when the economy is in the doldrums?
    Has any government been re-elected with the economy in the doldrums?

    And don't tell me 1992 because the economy was trying to recover after the 1990-91 recession, not slumping into a recession.
    1983, 1987.
    1983, 1987 when the economy was up is not an economy in the doldrums. (1987? with 4-5% GDP growth economic doldrums? Get serious.)
    I've edited my post. It's not as black-and-white as you make out.
    An economic boom is not a doldrum, even if unemployment was high the vast majority of the voters was very happy with the economy.
    And here's the definition of doldrums from Thesaurus:

    doldrums - a state of inactivity (in business or art etc); "economic growth of less than 1% per year is considered to be economic stagnation"
    Sigh. GDP was driven by staggering City growth, it was not seem AT ALL outside the SE for most of the 80s.

    I'd say that 75% of the UK would have seen 'doldrums' as the Promised Land from where they were.
    Manufacturing was booming too, 5% growth in 1987.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,932

    Quick question. What odds would be people give on the third largest parliamentary party after the next GE - LD / UKIP / SNP / Other?

    I only ask out of academic interest - I'm not looking to place a bet.

    Maybe SNP, probably LD. Based on 'lumpiness' of votes. That's FPTP folks.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @faisalislam: Lord Freud makes full and unreserved apology... Statement coming
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,466
    edited October 2014
    @LogicalSong

    Farage is suggesting about six seats at the moment, which is a fairly middle of the road kind of forecast.

    I'd definitely number Thurrock amongst that six, and agree with Isam that 5/4 is generous. Naturally I've backed that judgement with hard-earned, but not at the same sexy prices he got!
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,932
    murali_s said:

    Plato said:

    It must feel very good to be a Kipper nowadays. The sun is definitely shinning on your Party right now.

    I'm still pretty chipper about the Tories prospects for GE2015 too.

    Glad I'm not a Yellow Peril supporter.

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Farage enjoys the best approval rating with Ipsos Mori.

    Mr. Farage 39% Approve, 43% Disapprove

    Mr. Cameron 38%, 55%.

    Mr. Miliband 25%, 59%.

    Mr. Clegg 25%, 62%.

    The Liberal Democrats seem to add the words "fairer society" into every piece of news / initiative they announce.

    Sadly, that ship has long since sailed. Why weren't they thinking of a "fairer society" back in 2010 when they so eagerly wanted to get into bed with the toxic Tories?

    For that alone, they will suffer at GE 2015.

    Labour still on course to form the next Government (even with Ed at the helm!)
    What was the other option in 2010?
  • Plato

    Seen Fight Club? That was a weird and weirdly overrated film.
  • there aren't the usual references at the next PPC and how much the retiring MP will support whoever he will be and the local party ahead of next GE campaign
    antifrank said:

    That resignation letter of Jeremy Browne's is ambiguous - is he also leaving the Liberal Democrats?

  • Quick question. What odds would be people give on the third largest parliamentary party after the next GE - LD / UKIP / SNP / Other?

    I only ask out of academic interest - I'm not looking to place a bet.

    1/10 LD
    20/1 SNP
    20/1 UKIP
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    there aren't the usual references at the next PPC and how much the retiring MP will support whoever he will be and the local party ahead of next GE campaign

    antifrank said:

    That resignation letter of Jeremy Browne's is ambiguous - is he also leaving the Liberal Democrats?

    You're the guru: hadn't he already been reselected to fight the constituency next year?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,167
    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Lord Freud makes full and unreserved apology... Statement coming

    "I'm sorry I got caught out"
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Ross Hawkins ‏@rosschawkins 3m3 minutes ago

    Lord Freud: full and unreserved apology. I was foolish to accept the premise of the question


    OK, let's just wish the premise of the question away, rather than trying to have a grown-up discussion along the lines of David Herdson's excellent post downthread.

    A thoroughly depressing episode in the modern politics/news-cycle nexus.
  • taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Ross Hawkins ‏@rosschawkins 3m3 minutes ago

    Lord Freud: full and unreserved apology. I was foolish to accept the premise of the question


    OK, let's just wish the premise of the question away, rather than trying to have a grown-up discussion along the lines of David Herdson's excellent post downthread.

    A thoroughly depressing episode in the modern politics/news-cycle nexus.


    Oh well, UKIP will go up in the polls a bit more...
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Well, quite

    My feeling is the tory response should be pretty robust here. Stick it back up Ed's b*ckside
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    So why is he apologising.

    You seem to be aiming disgusting at the wrong person
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited October 2014
    I can't see a good reason to not bring in a variant to the Personal Independence Payment idea, but related to work rather than care.

    The data is probably all captured for PIP applications - I'm pretty sure that covers all mental and physical disabilities. It'd be fairly straightforward to allocate a subsidy to employers based on whatever the PIP score was. PIP IIRC isn't means tested either, if that's the case - it's in the interests of everyone to help those who want to work/but have a significant set of issues that make them less attractive to employers.

    I think Lord Freud was just stating the obvious, but used all the wrong language.

    Lord Freud was responding to a question from David Scott, a Tory councillor from Tunbridge Wells, according to a transcript obtained by PoliticsHome.com.

    Mr Scott said: "I have a number of mentally damaged individuals, who to be quite frank aren’t worth the Minimum Wage, but want to work. And we have been trying to support them in work, but you can’t find people who are willing to pay the Minimum Wage.

    "We had a young man who was keen to do gardening; now the only way we managed to get him to work was actually setting up a company for him, because as a director in a company we didn’t have to pay the Minimum Wage, we could actually give him the earnings from that," he said, adding: "How do you deal with those sort of cases?"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11164121/David-Cameron-invokes-dead-son-to-slap-down-minister-who-said-disabled-not-worth-minimum-wage.html

    In cases like that, employers shouldn't have to fund the minimum wage. If they do, the inevitable result is that the people won't be employed and they'll be left to rot without work that they're willing to do.

    A much better option would be for the government to provide a subsidy related to their disability, to be paid to the employer, to enable the individual to receive (at least) the minimum wage. Someone mentioned Philip Davies downthread. I put this idea to him when the issue was last under debate and he was open to it.

    The point is that there is a market rate for any individual in any job. If some, due to disability, cannot do any to a point where their value to an employer is greater than the min wage, they won't be employed. That leaves four options: (1) leave things as they are and give them benefits, which seems to be Labour's preferred solution, (2) set up state-run and -subsidised 'businesses' that can employ them, which has been done but smacks of institutionalism, (3) link the subsidy to the individual, and (4) amend the min wage. None is ideal but to pretend that because the defects of one do not exist in another it means that that other doesn't have defects of its own is disingenuous.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    edited October 2014

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    So why is he apologising.

    You seem to be aiming disgusting at the wrong person
    Because if he didn't apologise, he'd be asked why he wasn't apologizing for an eon.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Lord Freud's language was awful, whatever his underlying point. Government ministers should have more care.

    "Let them eat cake" was, on some versions, taken out of context and misinterpreted.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2014

    Ross Hawkins ‏@rosschawkins 3m3 minutes ago

    Lord Freud: full and unreserved apology. I was foolish to accept the premise of the question


    OK, let's just wish the premise of the question away, rather than trying to have a grown-up discussion along the lines of David Herdson's excellent post downthread.

    A thoroughly depressing episode in the modern politics/news-cycle nexus.

    I agree whole heartedly

    Anyone with a bit of common sense will understand what he meant

    Labour need to be careful here.. hysterical and deliberate over reactions are a bit 1980s lefty

    This seems to me to be the equivalent of giving your kid a tenner to take 4 hours cleaning the car even though you could get a much better job done in ten minutes for a fiver down the local Eastern European garage.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    So why is he apologising.

    He is apologizing for the offence cause by his very poor phrasing.

    The fact remains that it is society, and not Lord Freud, that will not pay the minimum wage to employ severely disabled people.


  • So why is he apologising.

    You seem to be aiming disgusting at the wrong person

    I'm really not.

    Have you actually read the exchange, or are you so cynical that you really, really don't care?

    Yes, Lord Freud should have chosen his words more carefully, like a full-time professional politician. But the central point - whether the benefits/minimum wage system prevents the most severely disabled from taking a small step towards self-esteem and independence - is a serious one.
  • hucks67 said:

    Is it appropriate for Cameron to use his personal experience to justify the governments performance on helping the disabled ? Not very many children with disabilities have parents who are multi-millionaires, even if they used state services. So I don't think it is relevant for Cameron to cite his experience when asked about government performance. It is surely about disabled people across the country, some who have parents who are not as fortunate as the Camerons.

    One would have thought that speaking from a position of personnel experience, eminently qualifies any MP to speak out on such matters – wealth doesn’t come into it.
    The problem I have with it is not that it isn't sincere, or that his personal experience isn't valuable but that it's used as a form of immunisation against criticism in a debate on certain topics. It's a fallacious appeal to emotion while setting up a straw man: "How dare you question my motivation (the arguer may not be, instead pointing out perceived problems with your actions), due to my own personal experience (Heart rending, but of little relevance to the merits of policy A or B) I know better than anyone else how to understand/preserve/save/improve x" (fallacious conclusion).

    Around NHS provision it's forgivable. The notion that Cameron's own heartbreaking experience means that we should automatically trust him to have the right policies to protect the NHS is patently ludicrous, however politicians love to carve their own personal narrative and I can understand how some of his anger about the more vituperative attacks is likely to be absolutely genuine.

    When over used with anger though it begins to look a little defensive - as it did today, as it was in response to a question about working rights for the disabled and the integrity of the minimum wage where Cameron's own experience is fairly irrelevant. "How dare you question my motives", doesn't really work when you're being confronted with an at best clumsily offensive quote from a minister about disabled people, a broad group who let's be honest feel that whatever your motivations, they've got a distinctly raw deal out of this government with the way some cuts have fallen and the way that some of those have been handled.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    Yes indeed
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Isn't Ash now the pathologist in CSI NY? I'm sure that's where I recognised from?

    Ishmael_X said:

    Godwin's law alert Klaxon

    Neil Kinnock has admitted that Labour is still seen by the public as “the incompetent party” when it comes to the economy.

    He compared Chancellor George Osborne with the Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels for the “big lie” that Labour was “not fit to govern”.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/neil-kinnock-accuses-osborne-of-behaving-like-goebbels-9795636.html

    Kinnochio's appearance reminds us that we really dodged a bullet when he blew the General Election in 1992.

    I've sort of lost track of what Kippers want at this point. A while ago I thought most would be happy with the referendum that Cameron is promising, but just don't trust him to follow through. Now, though, it seems more like they'd be unhappy with even that because they don't like the idea of the renegotiation and they don't like that the three main parties would all be campaigning to stay in.

    snip

    Well, quite.

    UKIP at this point remind me of nothing so much as HAL9000 in 2001. HAL was programmed both to achieve the goals of the mission reliably, but also to dissemble to the crew about the goals of the mission. He resolved this dilemma by killing off the crew. He justified this by telling himself the stupid crew were only jeopardising the mission anyway.

    UKIP both wants a referendum but does not because they know they'll lose it. They resolve this dilemma by killing off the referendum by assisting Ed Miliband into power. They justify this by telling themselves that the stupid electors will only jeopardise the referendum result by voting wrong anyway.

    I tried to come up with an analogy involving Carthage but I lack the erudition.
    You are mixing up 2001 and Alien. HAL went mad, Mother in Alien was programmed to dissemble to the crew.
    No I'm not!

    HAL was told of the mission's purpose but the crew were not, until after he wigged out and the one survivor switched him off.

    In Alien MUTHR just ran the ship. The science officer, Ash the android, was the one in receipt of Special Order 937, which said Gather specimen, crew expendable.

    HAL's goals were to be reliable but also to lie, hence paranoid fugue. Ash's goal was to protect the alien, "all other priorities rescinded", so there was never any conflict of objectives. Bummer for everyone else of course.
  • Ishmael_X said:

    Godwin's law alert Klaxon

    Neil Kinnock has admitted that Labour is still seen by the public as “the incompetent party” when it comes to the economy.

    He compared Chancellor George Osborne with the Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels for the “big lie” that Labour was “not fit to govern”.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/neil-kinnock-accuses-osborne-of-behaving-like-goebbels-9795636.html

    Kinnochio's appearance reminds us that we really dodged a bullet when he blew the General Election in 1992.

    I've sort of lost track of what Kippers want at this point. A while ago I thought most would be happy with the referendum that Cameron is promising, but just don't trust him to follow through. Now, though, it seems more like they'd be unhappy with even that because they don't like the idea of the renegotiation and they don't like that the three main parties would all be campaigning to stay in.

    So, er, what exactly do they want? If renegotiation is on the table, then I think most people would be unhappy with not doing so, and as I understand it the polls back this up. Likewise I don't see how even an influential UKIP could prevent parties- or their members/donors- campaigning in a referendum for the result they want. Would that even be fair or democratic?

    Well, quite.



    I tried to come up with an analogy involving Carthage but I lack the erudition.
    You are mixing up 2001 and Alien. HAL went mad, Mother in Alien was programmed to dissemble to the crew.
    No I'm not!

    HAL was told of the mission's purpose but the crew were not, until after he wigged out and the one survivor switched him off.

    In Alien MUTHR just ran the ship. The science officer, Ash the android, was the one in receipt of Special Order 937, which said Gather specimen, crew expendable.

    HAL's goals were to be reliable but also to lie, hence paranoid fugue. Ash's goal was to protect the alien, "all other priorities rescinded", so there was never any conflict of objectives. Bummer for everyone else of course.
    Spot on, Bond.

    It's actually a lot clearer in the book.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,167
    isam said:

    Ross Hawkins ‏@rosschawkins 3m3 minutes ago

    Lord Freud: full and unreserved apology. I was foolish to accept the premise of the question


    OK, let's just wish the premise of the question away, rather than trying to have a grown-up discussion along the lines of David Herdson's excellent post downthread.

    A thoroughly depressing episode in the modern politics/news-cycle nexus.

    I agree whole heartedly

    Anyone with a bit of common sense will understand what he meant

    Labour need to be careful here.. hysterical and deliberate over reactions are a bit 1980s lefty

    This seems to me to be the equivalent of giving your kid a tenner to clean the car even though you could get a much better job done for a fiver down the local Eastern European garage.
    £6!!! £4 or £5 up here in the North East!
  • Reselected in November 2013
    http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/10835746.Jeremy_Browne_MP_re_selected_to_contest_Taunton_Deane_for_Lib_Dems/
    antifrank said:

    there aren't the usual references at the next PPC and how much the retiring MP will support whoever he will be and the local party ahead of next GE campaign

    antifrank said:

    That resignation letter of Jeremy Browne's is ambiguous - is he also leaving the Liberal Democrats?

    You're the guru: hadn't he already been reselected to fight the constituency next year?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    isam said:

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    Yes indeed
    The comments were disgusting

    He was found out

    He has apologized

    The Tory PB habit of trying to blame Lab for finding out and mentioning it and for everything in general is pathetic.

    Do as Lord F has done and admit it was wrong.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Reselected in November 2013
    http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/10835746.Jeremy_Browne_MP_re_selected_to_contest_Taunton_Deane_for_Lib_Dems/

    antifrank said:

    there aren't the usual references at the next PPC and how much the retiring MP will support whoever he will be and the local party ahead of next GE campaign

    antifrank said:

    That resignation letter of Jeremy Browne's is ambiguous - is he also leaving the Liberal Democrats?

    You're the guru: hadn't he already been reselected to fight the constituency next year?
    You are the oracle.

    It's all rather strange.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    edited October 2014
    Sean_F said:


    Given that everyone on this forum who thinks that UKIP voters should vote Conservative in order to secure an EU Referendum wants the UK to remain in the EU, and believes that would be the outcome of the vote, why should UKIP voters be impressed by such an offer?

    We may believe that, some may even hope that, but no one knows that. Do UKIP not trust the British people to exercise their judgement in the ballot box in 2017? Are they so comtemptuous of their fellow citizens that they will make the 'wrong' decision? The answer, sadly, that in some cases and certainly in Nigel Farage's, is yes, they do and they are.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    isam said:

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    Yes indeed
    The comments were disgusting

    He was found out

    He has apologized

    The Tory PB habit of trying to blame Lab for finding out and mentioning it and for everything in general is pathetic.

    Do as Lord F has done and admit it was wrong.
    What do you think was disgusting, out of interest? The choice of words? Or the proposal to come up with a system where companies are subsidised so that the disabled can get more jobs at the same level of overall income?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Ross Hawkins ‏@rosschawkins 3m3 minutes ago

    Lord Freud: full and unreserved apology. I was foolish to accept the premise of the question


    OK, let's just wish the premise of the question away, rather than trying to have a grown-up discussion along the lines of David Herdson's excellent post downthread.

    A thoroughly depressing episode in the modern politics/news-cycle nexus.


    Oh well, UKIP will go up in the polls a bit more...
    Does Roger Helmer's masseuse get minimum wage?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited October 2014
    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:


    Given that everyone on this forum who thinks that UKIP voters should vote Conservative in order to secure an EU Referendum wants the UK to remain in the EU, and believes that would be the outcome of the vote, why should UKIP voters be impressed by such an offer?

    We may believe that, some may even hope that, but no one knows that. Do UKIP not trust the British people to exercise their judgement in the ballot box in 2017? Are they so comtemptuous of their fellow citizens? The answer, sadly, that in some cases and certainly in Nigel Farage's, is yes, they do and they are.
    UKIP support a referendum in 2015, let alone 2017. The people that do not trust the British public are the parties that never support a referendum during a period when they are likely to be in power. That's all of the big three. Cameron was the one with enough contempt that he wouldn't have one this parliament.
  • Plato said:

    LOL - that Lost Deposit icon could've been a Winning Here diamond - just the wrong sort of winning...

    Now it's of course 10 lost deposits from 18 by-elections on the GB mainland since 2010 :)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2014

    isam said:

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    Yes indeed
    The comments were disgusting

    He was found out

    He has apologized

    The Tory PB habit of trying to blame Lab for finding out and mentioning it and for everything in general is pathetic.

    Do as Lord F has done and admit it was wrong.
    I'll do what I like, I certainly don't need advice from you

    If you honestly think he was being mean deliberately then there's no point debating this with you... he obviously meant that the work these people do isn't worth the minimum hourly rate under normal circumstances, and if you would put your sensitive skin protection on, financially speaking he is correct.

    What you are doing is demonizing, via feigned outrage, someone who is looking for a way of giving an earner to a mentally disabled person for doing work that he could do himself, or get someone else to do better, for political propaganda purposes

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2014
    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    Yes indeed
    The comments were disgusting

    He was found out

    He has apologized

    The Tory PB habit of trying to blame Lab for finding out and mentioning it and for everything in general is pathetic.

    Do as Lord F has done and admit it was wrong.
    What do you think was disgusting, out of interest? The choice of words? Or the proposal to come up with a system where companies are subsidised so that the disabled can get more jobs at the same level of overall income?
    Yes, I'd really like to know too. Is it disgust that a business wont cough up for a disabled person producing 2 widgets an hour, when an able-bodied worker can turn out 4?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    I found this in Twitter:

    BREAKING NEWS: An investigation has begun into why this tweet was posted and then removed from twitter this morning. pic.twitter.com/L6u0VaaxBq

    — Sly News Newsdesk (@SlyNewsBreak) October 15, 2014

    True or false: A new guessing game.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    isam said:

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    Yes indeed
    The comments were disgusting

    He was found out

    He has apologized

    The Tory PB habit of trying to blame Lab for finding out and mentioning it and for everything in general is pathetic.

    Do as Lord F has done and admit it was wrong.
    Just wrong. Listen to, and try to understand, what Freud says. You have to be very, very obtuse - deliberately or not - not to see what labour have done here.

  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Ross Hawkins ‏@rosschawkins 3m3 minutes ago

    Lord Freud: full and unreserved apology. I was foolish to accept the premise of the question


    OK, let's just wish the premise of the question away, rather than trying to have a grown-up discussion along the lines of David Herdson's excellent post downthread.

    A thoroughly depressing episode in the modern politics/news-cycle nexus.


    Oh well, UKIP will go up in the polls a bit more...
    Does Roger Helmer's masseuse get minimum wage?

    No idea. The question is too hard for me to answer.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Socrates said:

    Also, the idea that we'd have to have free labour to get a trade deal outside the EU is complete and utter nonsense. Korea already, and Canada shortly, will have 95% of the trade access with out any of that.

    I thought the EU-Canada deal had substantial provisions re freedom of labour. But I could be wrong.
  • Very curious dominance of a Tory atmosphere on PB these days - somehow a cross between a UKIP pub, a right-leaning economics thinktank, and a few more entertaining and occasional pipesmoke and elbowpatch whiffs of the 1980s Carlton club.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067

    Plato said:

    LOL - that Lost Deposit icon could've been a Winning Here diamond - just the wrong sort of winning...

    Now it's of course 10 lost deposits from 18 by-elections on the GB mainland since 2010 :)
    We need an update on the graph though!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:


    Given that everyone on this forum who thinks that UKIP voters should vote Conservative in order to secure an EU Referendum wants the UK to remain in the EU, and believes that would be the outcome of the vote, why should UKIP voters be impressed by such an offer?

    We may believe that, some may even hope that, but no one knows that. Do UKIP not trust the British people to exercise their judgement in the ballot box in 2017? Are they so comtemptuous of their fellow citizens that they will make the 'wrong' decision? The answer, sadly, that in some cases and certainly in Nigel Farage's, is yes, they do and they are.
    I think he doesn't trust the Tory party. I know that may be hard to believe.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Ishmael_X said:

    isam said:

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    Yes indeed
    The comments were disgusting

    He was found out

    He has apologized

    The Tory PB habit of trying to blame Lab for finding out and mentioning it and for everything in general is pathetic.

    Do as Lord F has done and admit it was wrong.
    Just wrong. Listen to, and try to understand, what Freud says. You have to be very, very obtuse - deliberately or not - not to see what labour have done here.

    Well i think Cameron agrees with me and you.

    Lord F comments may well have knocked unemployment figures off the top of the news.

    If i were Cameron i would be furious for both the comments and allowing Lab to steal the headlines.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    GM Polis blaming targets, if this had come out last week before the polls shut. Labour would have been in serious trouble.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-29623340

    Warning - some cages might be rattled.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    edited October 2014
    Socrates said:

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:


    Given that everyone on this forum who thinks that UKIP voters should vote Conservative in order to secure an EU Referendum wants the UK to remain in the EU, and believes that would be the outcome of the vote, why should UKIP voters be impressed by such an offer?

    We may believe that, some may even hope that, but no one knows that. Do UKIP not trust the British people to exercise their judgement in the ballot box in 2017? Are they so comtemptuous of their fellow citizens? The answer, sadly, that in some cases and certainly in Nigel Farage's, is yes, they do and they are.
    UKIP support a referendum in 2015, let alone 2017. The people that do not trust the British public are the parties that never support a referendum during a period when they are likely to be in power. That's all of the big three. Cameron was the one with enough contempt that he wouldn't have one this parliament.
    You deceive no one, and probably not even yourself, with such self-serving rubbish. The Conservatives never promised an in-out referendum in their 2010 manifesto. They will in 2015, You have been told time and time and time again by those who know infinitely more about the Conservative Party than you, that such a referendum will be held, after re-negotiation, in 2017 by a Cameron-led Government.

    Those in UKIP like yourself (but by no means anything like a majority of the current supporters) are latter-day revolutionary defeatists, you are petrified of a vote that will likely lose, and will do anything and everything to ensure it does not take place. And that means praying, like you've never prayed before, that Ed Miliband becomes PM.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    MikeK said:

    I found this in Twitter:

    BREAKING NEWS: An investigation has begun into why this tweet was posted and then removed from twitter this morning. pic.twitter.com/L6u0VaaxBq

    — Sly News Newsdesk (@SlyNewsBreak) October 15, 2014

    True or false: A new guessing game.

    Some readers might need new glasses.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    Yes indeed
    The comments were disgusting

    He was found out

    He has apologized

    The Tory PB habit of trying to blame Lab for finding out and mentioning it and for everything in general is pathetic.

    Do as Lord F has done and admit it was wrong.
    What do you think was disgusting, out of interest? The choice of words? Or the proposal to come up with a system where companies are subsidised so that the disabled can get more jobs at the same level of overall income?
    See Lord Fs apology for more info.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited October 2014
    antifrank said:

    Reselected in November 2013
    http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/10835746.Jeremy_Browne_MP_re_selected_to_contest_Taunton_Deane_for_Lib_Dems/

    antifrank said:

    there aren't the usual references at the next PPC and how much the retiring MP will support whoever he will be and the local party ahead of next GE campaign

    antifrank said:

    That resignation letter of Jeremy Browne's is ambiguous - is he also leaving the Liberal Democrats?

    You're the guru: hadn't he already been reselected to fight the constituency next year?
    You are the oracle.

    It's all rather strange.
    "Jeremy Browne has announced that now is the right time to announce he will not stand at the next election and the Liberal Democrats wish him all the best from the future.
    "The Deputy Prime Minister regrets the decision that he has taken to leave politics as Jeremy has always had strongly-held views which he has expressed with great skill and conviction.
    "Jeremy has been a tireless constituency MP for the people of Taunton and served in two important ministerial roles in the early part of this government."
    – LIBERAL DEMOCRAT SPOKESPERSON

    http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/update/2014-10-15/clegg-pays-tribute-to-brownes-strongly-held-views/
  • Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited October 2014



    Wishful thinking I'd suggest.

    Go look at the Ashcroft marginals polling. The latest batch showed a swing from 2010 of just 2% from the LDs to UKIP and in at least two of the seats that you list there's been a swing from CON to LD since the general election.

    Lib Dem incumbency is far stronger than for other parties. Remember as well that voters are not asked to choose party leaders, parties but individuals to be their MP.

    I am up at this time of night because our cat, which we have had for 15 years, is very poorly.

    I thought the thread must have auto loaded. Hope your cat has got through the night ok.

    I agree that incumbency is a significant factor in the elections, and many libdem MPs have a good reputation as constituency MPs.

    If the switch was say from Libdem to Lab or Green I think it would be less significant and would expect a lot of them to come back.

    Its the fact that the switch is to the other end of the spectrum to UKIP that would worry me if I were a Libdem MP. It indicates that for many voters, voting Liberal was only done for negative reasons as a protest vote, or more specifically an anti tory vote (which will inevitably be diluted by Libdems being coalition partners however well the coalition went)

    Taking Yeovil (as I have strong links with that part of the world). Now South Somerset council dosen't fully align with the parly const but is pretty well aligned. In 2014 Libs were approx 5,000 votes behind both Tories and UKIP. Laws does have a significant personal following (although I gather it's a bit tarnished in the eyes of some local voters by the expenses business), but he needs the mother of all incumbency votes to turn round that Euro 2014 result.

    I don't think UKIP will win it, but, as with many other Libdem seats where the tories have always been a good second, former Libdem people voting UKIP (and Green - Green didn't stand in Yeovil in 2010) may do for Laws and let the Tory candidate in.

    Were the libs second in the Euros there, I would agree with you, but third, over 5,000 votes behind both tories and UKIP, and only 5,000 votes ahead of the fourth placed Greens is to my mind too much to ask of an incumbency vote. Plus, if activists have to go into Yeovil to try and shore up Laws, where does that leave resources for defence of more vulnerable seats like Somerton and Frome or Chippenham?

    Euro Results in South Somerset:

    UKIP 16,786
    Tories 14,526
    Libdems 9,736
    Green 4,156
    Labour 3,321
    An Independence From Europe 741
    English Democrats 460
    BNP 294

    Turnout 39.19%
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    Yes indeed
    The comments were disgusting

    He was found out

    He has apologized

    The Tory PB habit of trying to blame Lab for finding out and mentioning it and for everything in general is pathetic.

    Do as Lord F has done and admit it was wrong.
    What do you think was disgusting, out of interest? The choice of words? Or the proposal to come up with a system where companies are subsidised so that the disabled can get more jobs at the same level of overall income?
    Not Lab for pointing it out as some seem to think
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Ishmael_X said:

    isam said:

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    Yes indeed
    The comments were disgusting

    He was found out

    He has apologized

    The Tory PB habit of trying to blame Lab for finding out and mentioning it and for everything in general is pathetic.

    Do as Lord F has done and admit it was wrong.
    Just wrong. Listen to, and try to understand, what Freud says. You have to be very, very obtuse - deliberately or not - not to see what labour have done here.

    Well i think Cameron agrees with me and you.

    Lord F comments may well have knocked unemployment figures off the top of the news.

    If i were Cameron i would be furious for both the comments and allowing Lab to steal the headlines.
    Meaning "me and not you"?

    I didn't say that what Labour has done hasn't worked, at least in the short term.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    "ITV News has learned that police are to re-open an investigation into the death of a Rochdale teenager who alleged she was sexually exploited by a gang of older men.

    Victoria Agoglia Byrne, 15, died of a suspected drugs overdose in 2003. She was living in a care home for young people at the time.

    In an account written as much as two years before her death, Victoria described her sexual abuse by a gang of older men.

    As part of our investigation into failings by Greater Manchester Police (GMP) to investigate sexual exploitation, ITV News can reveal that Victoria's account was handed to police in 2004 but was never acted upon.

    'I am only 13. I got the rest of my life ahead of me. I have slept with people older than me. Half of them I don't even know there [sic] names'.– victoria "

    http://www.itv.com/news/2014-10-15/itv-news-reveals-how-police-ignored-teenage-victims-written-account-of-sexual-abuse/
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2014
    Moronic headline of the year: Why is the US Navy practising for war with China?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29547621
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited October 2014
    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Also, the idea that we'd have to have free labour to get a trade deal outside the EU is complete and utter nonsense. Korea already, and Canada shortly, will have 95% of the trade access with out any of that.

    I thought the EU-Canada deal had substantial provisions re freedom of labour. But I could be wrong.
    Dunno about the Korean deal but the one with Canada does have provisions to make it easier for Temporary access for purposes to do with trade. Certainly nothing like the freedom of movement provisions of the EU.

    So that rather blows out the idea that the UK would have to accept the current arrangements if it left the EU. It would be a matter for negotiation.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Skybet are doing the same markets as Ladbrokes on R&S

    Similar prices too!

    https://www.skybet.com/politics/by_-_elections/event/17054097?bsnls=1&bsopen=1&aff_id=8036
  • The state already helps employers with the cost of disabled staff - Access to Work can pay for adaptations in the working environment, transport costs, help with specialist equipment etc.

    Freud's comments were ill advised and insulting. No one should ever be expected to work for less than the minimum wage.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    taffys said:

    According to Guido, Labour’s Anne Begg admitted on Sky News that she had not been told the context of Lord Freud’s comments by party spinners...'

    Well, quite. It's frankly pretty disgusting of Labour to try to make a cheap political point by misquoting from an exchange which was actually about how to help the very severely disabled gain some self-esteem and a little bit of independence.
    Yes indeed
    The comments were disgusting

    He was found out

    He has apologized

    The Tory PB habit of trying to blame Lab for finding out and mentioning it and for everything in general is pathetic.

    Do as Lord F has done and admit it was wrong.
    What do you think was disgusting, out of interest? The choice of words? Or the proposal to come up with a system where companies are subsidised so that the disabled can get more jobs at the same level of overall income?
    Not Lab for pointing it out as some seem to think
    Again: Listen to, and try to understand, what Freud actually says.

  • Not Lab for pointing it out as some seem to think

    So you don't care about the very severely disabled, as long as there's a cheap political point to be scored.

    Fair enough, at least you admit it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033

    The state already helps employers with the cost of disabled staff - Access to Work can pay for adaptations in the working environment, transport costs, help with specialist equipment etc.

    Freud's comments were ill advised and insulting. No one should ever be expected to work for less than the minimum wage.

    Wasn't the idea that the government would subsidise their wage, so more disabled people can be employed?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    Also, the idea that we'd have to have free labour to get a trade deal outside the EU is complete and utter nonsense. Korea already, and Canada shortly, will have 95% of the trade access with out any of that.

    I thought the EU-Canada deal had substantial provisions re freedom of labour. But I could be wrong.
    This is all I can find:

    Temporary movement of personnel. It will be easier for firms to move staff temporarily between the EU and Canada, and certain categories of professionals will have easier access to temporarily supply services such as consultancy in a variety of sectors like engineering, accounting or architecture.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2014
    RobD said:

    The state already helps employers with the cost of disabled staff - Access to Work can pay for adaptations in the working environment, transport costs, help with specialist equipment etc.

    Freud's comments were ill advised and insulting. No one should ever be expected to work for less than the minimum wage.

    Wasn't the idea that the government would subsidise their wage, so more disabled people can be employed?
    Certain posters are determined to be blind to the facts as long as it reinforces prejudices about Eeeevil Tories who prefer the taste of disabled babies above all others.

    It was dumb phrasing, but a sound point on how to best help the disabled work. End of (said in hope not expectation).
  • New Thread
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564


    £6!!! £4 or £5 up here in the North East!

    Ha, it's £1 on the Holloway Road in London. But you do have to do it yourself, for 5 minutes - coin in the slot, grab the hose, go, press buttons alternatively for shampoo/water/air. It's good fun.

  • isam said:

    Skybet are doing the same markets as Ladbrokes on R&S

    Similar prices too!

    https://www.skybet.com/politics/by_-_elections/event/17054097?bsnls=1&bsopen=1&aff_id=8036


    Skybet?!!

    Do you know anybody that ever got more than 50p on with them?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited October 2014
    isam said:

    "ITV News has learned that police are to re-open an investigation into the death of a Rochdale teenager who alleged she was sexually exploited by a gang of older men.

    Victoria Agoglia Byrne, 15, died of a suspected drugs overdose in 2003. She was living in a care home for young people at the time.

    In an account written as much as two years before her death, Victoria described her sexual abuse by a gang of older men.

    As part of our investigation into failings by Greater Manchester Police (GMP) to investigate sexual exploitation, ITV News can reveal that Victoria's account was handed to police in 2004 but was never acted upon.

    'I am only 13. I got the rest of my life ahead of me. I have slept with people older than me. Half of them I don't even know there [sic] names'.– victoria "

    http://www.itv.com/news/2014-10-15/itv-news-reveals-how-police-ignored-teenage-victims-written-account-of-sexual-abuse/

    So at this point it's not just rape and torture, it's potential murder. And still there's nothing from David Cameron and Nick Clegg in terms of action. They must lack the basic moral compass of normal human beings.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited October 2014
    In Italy there's a quote of disabled workers (reduction of work ability of at least 45%, 33% if they are disabled after an accident that took place at the workplace) a company should take:

    companies with less than 15 workers (permanent contracts or fixed term lasting at least 9 months, part-timers calculated in accordance to their work hours. So for ex 2 part-timers at 50% is considered 1 unit): no requirements
    between 15 and 35 workers: 1 disabled at minumum (only if they are hiring new people)
    36-50 workers: 2 disabled
    more than 50 workers: 7% of the workforce

    For companies with 15-35 workers they can pick the disabled person they prefer. For companies with 36-50 workers they can pick one with nominal calling and one with numeric calls (the local employement center or the labour market dapartment of the local government will select the worker or a list of workers to choose from). For 50+ companies, 60% with nominal call and 40% with numeric call.


    There's a fine if they don't respect the numbers required. Some companies prefer paying the fine rather than hiring a disabled worker.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,549
    Jeremy Browne was very active and in demand at fringe meetings at conference this year. He has strong views as to the need to have a smaller state from a 360 degree liberal perspective. I also think that he has a new book on liberalism out.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699



    Wishful thinking I'd suggest.

    Go look at the Ashcroft marginals polling. The latest batch showed a swing from 2010 of just 2% from the LDs to UKIP and in at least two of the seats that you list there's been a swing from CON to LD since the general election.

    Lib Dem incumbency is far stronger than for other parties. Remember as well that voters are not asked to choose party leaders, parties but individuals to be their MP.

    I am up at this time of night because our cat, which we have had for 15 years, is very poorly.

    I thought the thread must have auto loaded. Hope your cat has got through the night ok.

    I agree that incumbency is a significant factor in the elections, and many libdem MPs have a good reputation as constituency MPs.

    If the switch was say from Libdem to Lab or Green I think it would be less significant and would expect a lot of them to come back.

    Its the fact that the switch is to the other end of the spectrum to UKIP that would worry me if I were a Libdem MP. It indicates that for many voters, voting Liberal was only done for negative reasons as a protest vote, or more specifically an anti tory vote (which will inevitably be diluted by Libdems being coalition partners however well the coalition went)

    Taking Yeovil (as I have strong links with that part of the world). Now South Somerset council dosen't fully align with the parly const but is pretty well aligned. In 2014 Libs were approx 5,000 votes behind both Tories and UKIP. Laws does have a significant personal following (although I gather it's a bit tarnished in the eyes of some local voters by the expenses business), but he needs the mother of all incumbency votes to turn round that Euro 2014 result.

    I don't think UKIP will win it, but, as with many other Libdem seats where the tories have always been a good second, former Libdem people voting UKIP (and Green - Green didn't stand in Yeovil in 2010) may do for Laws and let the Tory candidate in.

    Were the libs second in the Euros there, I would agree with you, but third, over 5,000 votes behind both tories and UKIP, and only 5,000 votes ahead of the fourth placed Greens is to my mind too much to ask of an incumbency vote. Plus, if activists have to go into Yeovil to try and shore up Laws, where does that leave resources for defence of more vulnerable seats like Somerton and Frome or Chippenham?

    Euro Results in South Somerset:

    UKIP 16,786
    Tories 14,526
    Libdems 9,736
    Green 4,156
    Labour 3,321
    An Independence From Europe 741
    English Democrats 460
    BNP 294

    Turnout 39.19%
    It is completely pointless and ludicrous taking the Euro results and extrapolating them to a GE . Just look at the 2009 Euro results and compare to the 2010 GE . Look at the turnout figures for a start . 39% compared to nearer 70% at a GE .
  • RobD said:

    The state already helps employers with the cost of disabled staff - Access to Work can pay for adaptations in the working environment, transport costs, help with specialist equipment etc.

    Freud's comments were ill advised and insulting. No one should ever be expected to work for less than the minimum wage.

    Wasn't the idea that the government would subsidise their wage, so more disabled people can be employed?
    Nearly half of all people with disabilities are in work, their employers are not demanding subsidy. For the Minimum Wage to mean anything it must apply to all.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    RobD said:

    The state already helps employers with the cost of disabled staff - Access to Work can pay for adaptations in the working environment, transport costs, help with specialist equipment etc.

    Freud's comments were ill advised and insulting. No one should ever be expected to work for less than the minimum wage.

    Wasn't the idea that the government would subsidise their wage, so more disabled people can be employed?
    Nearly half of all people with disabilities are in work, their employers are not demanding subsidy. For the Minimum Wage to mean anything it must apply to all.
    Perhaps those individuals have disabilities that do not prevent them from earning the minimum wage. Others do. Are you suggesting that those which do (those with learning disabilities, say), should either rot on benefits, or that they're not trying hard enough?

    It is a scandal that - as you yourself admit - more than half of all disabled people are unemployed. Do you not think something should be done about it?

    Yes, the principle of the minimum wage is a sound one. The way to reinforce it is for disability-related subsidies, payable to the individuals' employers.
This discussion has been closed.