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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Henry G Manson: Words and the world of workers – how Labour

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  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Morris, I'm shocked.

    Perhaps Mr Morris was incensed by the high handed attitude wealthy left wingers adopt to the working classes they pretend to support.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Mr. Antifrank: "1) Built our infrastructure.
    2) Given us vastly better cuisine.
    3) Given us vastly better music.
    4) Made us an outward-looking confident nation."

    1) Have they? Are you referring to Irish navvies making canals?
    2) Bah. I prefer fish and chips. Also, letting in a quarter of a million people every year because you like curry is not the most rational argument in the world.
    3) ?
    4) Bollocks. We're now in the interminable midst of constitutional haggling as our sovereignty is eroded by the EU. Confident? There's a de facto censorship law against pictures of Mohammed.

    1) Really not sure on this one. No idea tbh.
    2) Fish and chips is a Jewish import I think, or Greek. I remember the Popodopolis family at my prep school ran a chippy.
    3) ??! indeed...
    4) Made some of the nation outward looking and confident, London seems to have fared rather better than Rotherham from immigration for example.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited October 2014
    Socrates said:

    Roger said:

    Floater

    "Only Tories are evil eh Rog??"

    Some of my best friends are Tories....(Joke)

    I'm thinking of setting up a paedo website for Socrates. I'm looking for a suitable picture of a panting dog with his tongue hanging out. I thought I'd try Gray Jolliffe

    You just hate the fact that someone is calling attention to the sort of sick torture and abuse that has gone on in media circles. I'm sure this is entirely coincidental to the fact that you've hung out in media circles your whole life.

    There's an obvious question here, which I won't ask for the sake of Mike's legal concerns, but your views when you were defending Roman Polanski were telling. Why don't you tell us whether you think relations with underage teenagers is wrong or not?
    You've gone over the line there.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Punter, ha, no. As I keep telling people, I am a floating voter. Voted for five parties to date, if you count Independent as a party.

    I do have strong views on freedom of speech, which has casually been eroded. It's one of the reasons I'm so against the proposed restrictive press laws. The press can be utter bastards, but it was also the press that found out about Rotherham. Better a wild press than a tame one.

    I'm also not against immigration. It's the scale and (sometimes) locations that need to change.
  • AndyJS said:

    Does Henry post comments on PB? I can't recall having seen any.

    He used to post a lot more than he does, Andy, and he has written many threads pieces over the years.

    He is always worth reading, whether you agree with him or not, and he has a well-earned reputation as a shrewd tipster, notably on Labour Party politics and tennis.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:


    It would be easy to land this at the feet of Labour’s general election co-ordinator of 2010 and today, Douglas Alexander. Schooled in the era of New Labour where it was privately proclaimed that disaffected Labour supporters would ‘have nowhere else to go’. The party is paying the price for excessively focusing on a narrow strip of Tory-Labour swing voters in southern marginal at the expense of the new ‘swing voters’ for Labour to appeal to swinging from either voting for Labour, to UKIP or to not voting for anyone at all.

    It is UKIP who are sweeping up those votes as well all down the eastern coastal region (where they previously mainly benefitted Labour)

    Kevin Maguire has written.....

    The same sort of left-wing empty buzz phrase driven gobbledegook that will drive these voters into UKIP's arms. 'Pledge cards" are just another accessory of the insincere New Labour years

    with UKIP expert Rob Ford

    Expert? When they categorise Boston & Skegness, which polled over 50% for UKIP at the Euros, has UKIP 20 points ahead in a poll a few weeks back, delivered all UKIP County Councillors in 2013 and where the incumbent Tory MP is standing down, as being of the most minor risk when arguably it should be categorised alongside Thanet South (which Ford and Goodwin originally categorised only the 142nd most likely seat), then he's hardly an expert. Frankly their assessments seem all over the place and I suspect that their model is wrong.

    The reality is Ford and Goodwin wrote the first and only book on the subject. That just puts them in the right place at the right time. It doesn't make them experts in anything and I imagine after the next election they will disown their own work and write a new tome that is far better informed.

    Mike Smithson tweeted a link to a scathing review of their book earlier
    Have you got the link?

    Here you are

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB · 7h6 hours ago
    Excellent critique of the Goodwin & Ford book on the rise of UKIP http://livesrunning.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/ukip-a-party-of-the-dispossessed-taking-votes-from-labour/

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    @Socrates - A helpful tip... If @TheWatcher thinks you've crossed the line, it is a long way off in your rear view mirror.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Pulpstar said:

    @Socrates - A helpful tip... If @TheWatcher thinks you've crossed the line, it is a long way off in your rear view mirror.

    You should both have seen what Roger wrote in his defence of Polanski. Sean Fear was about at the time if you want a third party to trust.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Pulpstar, huzzah for the Jews! [I did actually know that, but it was quite some time ago that it occurred and is certainly not due to the modern tidal wave of immigration].
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Mr. Punter, ha, no. As I keep telling people, I am a floating voter. Voted for five parties to date, if you count Independent as a party.

    I do have strong views on freedom of speech, which has casually been eroded. It's one of the reasons I'm so against the proposed restrictive press laws. The press can be utter bastards, but it was also the press that found out about Rotherham. Better a wild press than a tame one.

    I'm also not against immigration. It's the scale and (sometimes) locations that need to change.

    Sorry I killed you in Diplomacy - if only you weren't England and I wasn't France !

    The game has gone utterly silent the last week :P
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Nice of Austria to launch action against the building of a nuclear power station in the UK.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    Does Henry post comments on PB? I can't recall having seen any.

    He used to post a lot more than he does, Andy, and he has written many threads pieces over the years.

    He is always worth reading, whether you agree with him or not, and he has a well-earned reputation as a shrewd tipster, notably on Labour Party politics and tennis.
    I always enjoy reading his thread pieces, I was just curious about his absence from posting recently.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Pulpstar, no need to apologise.

    Probably just as well you did, actually. At the weekend I had a sudden rush to finish something and I've got a few things on the go now. I probably would've missed a move or two or made more daft ones if I were still about.

    Incidentally, I'm sure you've noticed but the Kaiser's going to take you from behind.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Mr. Pulpstar, huzzah for the Jews! [I did actually know that, but it was quite some time ago that it occurred and is certainly not due to the modern tidal wave of immigration].

    antifrank's list neatly sidesteps the difference between "immigration" and "mass immigration".

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Mr. Pulpstar, no need to apologise.

    Probably just as well you did, actually. At the weekend I had a sudden rush to finish something and I've got a few things on the go now. I probably would've missed a move or two or made more daft ones if I were still about.

    Incidentally, I'm sure you've noticed but the Kaiser's going to take you from behind.

    Yes, I'm fully expecting him to.
  • HenryGMansonHenryGManson Posts: 149
    edited October 2014
    Thanks Peter the Punter I can always rely on you to get my ears burning. To be honest I don't know how the hell the comments system works any more. Old dogs, new tricks and all that. Going to try and get my head around Mike's latest fiendish system and get commenting again and make some new acquaintances. I hope everyone is keeping well.



  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Doesn't anyone else find it a bit odd that 750 British troops are sent to Sierra Leone to combat Ebola without any national debate whatsoever?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Tax credits, child allowance, in work benefits, living wage & workers pledges vs Stopping Mass Immigration from the EU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    AndyJS said:

    Doesn't anyone else find it a bit odd that 750 British troops are sent to Sierra Leone to combat Ebola without any national debate whatsoever?

    Ye - definitely seems a bit strange. You'd expect a parliamentary debate on it even if its just a quick one...
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited October 2014
    AndyJS said:

    Doesn't anyone else find it a bit odd that 750 British troops are sent to Sierra Leone to combat Ebola without any national debate whatsoever?

    They're going to build treatment centres, not fight.

    The sooner they get on with it, the better, for all our sakes. A debate is only going to delay things.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Good old Harrison Jones.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    Plato said:

    Pulpstar said:

    taffys said:

    I expect that level of nuance/subtlety is lost on both sides of that argument though...

    Somehow I don;t think a pontificating, preachy little chap like dougie will be able to confine himself to Foreign matters.

    But you never know.

    Reckon he'll be shuffled in Mr Miliband's pack of cards ?
    Did Dougie get the blame for the No campaign for Labour - IIRC he was supposedly in charge of electioneering for EdM. I may be totally out of date here. TBH, it's all a bit of blur.
    He was, IIRC, at least partly responsible for Patronising BT Woman and got quite a bit of stick from it - or so I recall. I'm not sure whether that is an achievement to be proud of or not, given the depths of cynicism to which that commercial descended.

  • isam said:

    isam said:


    It would be easy to land this at the feet of Labour’s general election co-ordinator of 2010 and today, Douglas Alexander. Schooled in the era of New Labour where it was privately proclaimed that disaffected Labour supporters would ‘have nowhere else to go’. The party is paying the price for excessively focusing on a narrow strip of Tory-Labour swing voters in southern marginal at the expense of the new ‘swing voters’ for Labour to appeal to swinging from either voting for Labour, to UKIP or to not voting for anyone at all.

    It is UKIP who are sweeping up those votes as well all down the eastern coastal region (where they previously mainly benefitted Labour)

    Kevin Maguire has written.....

    The same sort of left-wing empty buzz phrase driven gobbledegook that will drive these voters into UKIP's arms. 'Pledge cards" are just another accessory of the insincere New Labour years

    with UKIP expert Rob Ford

    Expert? When they categorise Boston & Skegness, which polled over 50% for UKIP at the Euros, has UKIP 20 points ahead in a poll a few weeks back, delivered all UKIP County Councillors in 2013 and where the incumbent Tory MP is standing down, as being of the most minor risk when arguably it should be categorised alongside Thanet South (which Ford and Goodwin originally categorised only the 142nd most likely seat), then he's hardly an expert. Frankly their assessments seem all over the place and I suspect that their model is wrong.

    The reality is Ford and Goodwin wrote the first and only book on the subject. That just puts them in the right place at the right time. It doesn't make them experts in anything and I imagine after the next election they will disown their own work and write a new tome that is far better informed.

    Mike Smithson tweeted a link to a scathing review of their book earlier
    Have you got the link?

    Here you are

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB · 7h6 hours ago
    Excellent critique of the Goodwin & Ford book on the rise of UKIP http://livesrunning.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/ukip-a-party-of-the-dispossessed-taking-votes-from-labour/

    Thanks!
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    edited October 2014

    AndyJS said:

    Doesn't anyone else find it a bit odd that 750 British troops are sent to Sierra Leone to combat Ebola without any national debate whatsoever?

    They're going to build treatment centres, not fight.

    The sooner they get on with it, the better, for all our sakes.
    Correct. You would never think we elect governments to make decisions Presumably (always dangerous to presume I know) it will be paid for out of the aid budget.

    But isn't this just typical? We are doing something (at last) about a dangerous illness that is a potential threat to us all, it is really in our own longer term interests and in the short term humanitarian interest of some very poor and helpless people. But someone has to whinge -'we want a debate'
  • Thanks Peter the Punter I can always rely on you to get my ears burning. To be honest I don't know how the hell the comments system works any more. Old dogs, new tricks and all that. Going to try and get my head around Mike's latest fiendish system and get commenting again and make some new acquaintances. I hope everyone is keeping well.



    Excellent!!! A leftie who is always worth reading..... even more so than that redster commie TSE.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Mr. Pulpstar, huzzah for the Jews! [I did actually know that, but it was quite some time ago that it occurred and is certainly not due to the modern tidal wave of immigration].

    antifrank's list neatly sidesteps the difference between "immigration" and "mass immigration".

    How so?

    Sir Robert McAlpine's deathbed wish was as follows:

    “If the men wish to honour my death, allow them two minutes’ silence; but keep the big mixer going, and keep Paddy behind it.”

    Do you think that was done with limited immigration? Curiously, the descendants of "Paddy" are among the most vociferous opponents of current mass immigration.

    In 1945, there were four Indian restaurants in the whole of the UK. Do you think it became Britain's most popular meal out without mass immigration? Not to mention Chinese and Italian food, and all the other 300+ cuisines that you can find in London alone.

    Do you think that the rhythms of west Indian and African music would have been absorbed into mainstream European music without mass immigration? More recently, Balkan rhythms have started making their way into the charts too (Sam and the Womp's "Bom Bom Bom" springs to mind). I expect we'll see quite a bit more of that - anyone after musical tips, search out the Boban & Marko Markovic Orchestra and Felix Lajko.

    The British public are sufficiently open-minded and confident about hard-working foreigners to vote a Hungarian troupe as winners of Britain's Got Talent (something that would be unthinkable in most other countries). It's the pb public that seems to be struggling more.

  • antifrank said:

    What has mass immigration ever done for us?

    1) Built our infrastructure.
    2) Given us vastly better cuisine.
    3) Given us vastly better music.
    4) Made us an outward-looking confident nation.

    It has also met our demands for labour when we have needed them and provided us with untold numbers of hardworking highly motivated workers, many of whom have fulfilled their roles far more effectively than the available native employees would have done.

    5/ Furnished me with a succession of deeply foxy cleaners.

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Scott_P said:

    @GuidoFawkes: And she's gone, Speaker's spokeswoman after our story yesterday http://t.co/g4NzDaI4bH

    McGuinness quite rightly sacked after that little outburst.- Impartial? what was she thinking?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I thought Clegg's speech was impressive, especially the passionate stuff about UKIP and the SNP being two sides of the same coin. Ironic that it probably won't have much effect on voting intentions at this late state.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Antifrank, you refer to 1945, but the mass immigration was not a problem until the late 1990s. It's not the norm, it's not sustainable and it's not wanted.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    antifrank said:

    What has mass immigration ever done for us?

    1) Built our infrastructure.
    2) Given us vastly better cuisine.
    3) Given us vastly better music.
    4) Made us an outward-looking confident nation.

    It has also met our demands for labour when we have needed them and provided us with untold numbers of hardworking highly motivated workers, many of whom have fulfilled their roles far more effectively than the available native employees would have done.

    5/ Furnished me with a succession of deeply foxy cleaners.

    6 / Given UKIP bores something else to moan about in the golf club bar, whilst a Polish barmaid pours them drinks.
  • That Farron bloke is a bundle of laughs.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Crikey, bad day for MS Dhoni - India won't even get to 180.
  • antifrank said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, huzzah for the Jews! [I did actually know that, but it was quite some time ago that it occurred and is certainly not due to the modern tidal wave of immigration].

    antifrank's list neatly sidesteps the difference between "immigration" and "mass immigration".

    How so?

    Sir Robert McAlpine's deathbed wish was as follows:

    “If the men wish to honour my death, allow them two minutes’ silence; but keep the big mixer going, and keep Paddy behind it.”

    Do you think that was done with limited immigration? Curiously, the descendants of "Paddy" are among the most vociferous opponents of current mass immigration.

    In 1945, there were four Indian restaurants in the whole of the UK. Do you think it became Britain's most popular meal out without mass immigration? Not to mention Chinese and Italian food, and all the other 300+ cuisines that you can find in London alone.

    Do you think that the rhythms of west Indian and African music would have been absorbed into mainstream European music without mass immigration? More recently, Balkan rhythms have started making their way into the charts too (Sam and the Womp's "Bom Bom Bom" springs to mind). I expect we'll see quite a bit more of that - anyone after musical tips, search out the Boban & Marko Markovic Orchestra and Felix Lajko.

    The British public are sufficiently open-minded and confident about hard-working foreigners to vote a Hungarian troupe as winners of Britain's Got Talent (something that would be unthinkable in most other countries). It's the pb public that seems to be struggling more.

    Quite a lot of bollocks in that, unusually for you.

    Restaurants: there's been no Thai or Chinese mass immigration, yet there are shedloads of restaurants. There's been no American immigration, and yet there are Starbucks and McDonalds.

    The rhythms of black music arrived via Elvis, not immigration. They arrived in America through what one might perhaps term forced immigration.

    Mass immigration was a mistake to which there's no real answer other than the Jewish model, which entails us waiting 100 years for some of them to assimilate.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.
  • antifrank said:

    What has mass immigration ever done for us?

    1) Built our infrastructure.
    2) Given us vastly better cuisine.
    3) Given us vastly better music.
    4) Made us an outward-looking confident nation.

    It has also met our demands for labour when we have needed them and provided us with untold numbers of hardworking highly motivated workers, many of whom have fulfilled their roles far more effectively than the available native employees would have done.

    5/ Furnished me with a succession of deeply foxy cleaners.

    6 / Given UKIP bores something else to moan about in the golf club bar, whilst a Polish barmaid pours them drinks.
    7/ Stopping off on the way home - in the Rover - to pick up a pint of milk at the Polski Sklep.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    AndyJS said:

    Nice of Austria to launch action against the building of a nuclear power station in the UK.

    I think you are a bit out of date. The project has been approved. The issue is to do with state aid and the financing has been approved it seems in a way which saves the taxpayer money.
    This it would also seem is a bit of a first for the EU and the nuclear industry.

    You may not like it but state aid is part of the single market and if it works properly can stop our industries suffering from unfair competition.
    State aid is a component of trade agreements
    http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/international_aviation/country_index/canada_en.htm
    ''It includes a gradual phasing-in of traffic rights, mutual investment opportunities, as well as far reaching cooperation on a number of issues including safety, security, social matters, consumer protection, environment, air traffic management, competition law and state aid.''



  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    antifrank said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, huzzah for the Jews! [I did actually know that, but it was quite some time ago that it occurred and is certainly not due to the modern tidal wave of immigration].

    antifrank's list neatly sidesteps the difference between "immigration" and "mass immigration".

    How so?

    Sir Robert McAlpine's deathbed wish was as follows:

    “If the men wish to honour my death, allow them two minutes’ silence; but keep the big mixer going, and keep Paddy behind it.”

    Do you think that was done with limited immigration? Curiously, the descendants of "Paddy" are among the most vociferous opponents of current mass immigration.

    In 1945, there were four Indian restaurants in the whole of the UK. Do you think it became Britain's most popular meal out without mass immigration? Not to mention Chinese and Italian food, and all the other 300+ cuisines that you can find in London alone.

    Do you think that the rhythms of west Indian and African music would have been absorbed into mainstream European music without mass immigration? More recently, Balkan rhythms have started making their way into the charts too (Sam and the Womp's "Bom Bom Bom" springs to mind). I expect we'll see quite a bit more of that - anyone after musical tips, search out the Boban & Marko Markovic Orchestra and Felix Lajko.

    The British public are sufficiently open-minded and confident about hard-working foreigners to vote a Hungarian troupe as winners of Britain's Got Talent (something that would be unthinkable in most other countries). It's the pb public that seems to be struggling more.

    Quite a lot of bollocks in that, unusually for you.

    Restaurants: there's been no Thai or Chinese mass immigration, yet there are shedloads of restaurants. There's been no American immigration, and yet there are Starbucks and McDonalds.

    The rhythms of black music arrived via Elvis, not immigration. They arrived in America through what one might perhaps term forced immigration.

    Mass immigration was a mistake to which there's no real answer other than the Jewish model, which entails us waiting 100 years for some of them to assimilate.
    That can only happen if you stop the ongoing immigration. I suspect antifrank would feel differently about mass immigration if his child had to go to a school where language development was held back from most of his classmates speaking English as a second language.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2014
    Plato said:

    Sarin gas on the Japanese tube worked a treat as a terror weapon... We've had anthrax through the post, and ricin.

    Ebola doesn't seem much of a stretch for the determined. It's got a 21 day incubation period IIRC - plenty of time to get infected and come back/wait for symptoms to show and spend the day sneezing/touching everything you can.

    An awful prospect, but certainly not unimaginable.

    Anorak said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anorak said:

    FPT

    TOPPING said:

    Anorak said:

    Floater said:

    Internet reports suggest a second Spanish auxiliary nurse may have been infected with Ebola.

    Imagine if IS sent 20 jihadis to West Africa to rub shoulders with Ebola, then got them to sit on the Tube in London and the Metro in Paris for a week or two. *shudders*
    it's bodily fluid borne not airborne.

    They would have to get onto the tube, cut themselves open, or vomit, and then hope that the people they hit with their innards/vomit had cuts themselves.

    Not impossible but it's prob easier/more efficient to get an AK or two into central London.
    From the WHO website: Ebola then spreads through human-to-human transmission via direct contact (through broken skin or mucous membranes) with the blood, secretions, organs or other bodily fluids of infected people, and with surfaces and materials (e.g. bedding, clothing) contaminated with these fluids.

    Looking at the last sentence, then a few pin-pricks on each hand prior to holding the posts and hand rails in a tube train would do the trick. Getting a job at Costa and surreptitiously smearing each takeaway cup (they're red anyway) would also work a treat. The fear and disruption arising from just one or two cases would outweigh a gun attack by an order of magnitude (IMO).
    Not sure.

    A dastardly tube-borne attack by nasties somehow smacks of "old style" terror. Trying to surreptitiously deliver a lethal blow to the population.

    A Bombay/Brussels Jewish Museum-type nagga-f***ing-nagga stand up full-on armed attack is saying: here are the new rules, bitch.

    IMO the latter is the more "terrifying" option.
    Nah, a good old biological terror works best as EVERY SINGLE PERSON you meet could be a [unknowing] vector. Unless you're actually caught up in a gun fight they are somewhat remote. The tube was almost back to normal within a week of 7/7.
    The rather astonishing thing about Aum Shinrikyo was they launched 17 chemical/biological terror attacks before the 1995 subway attack, yet no one even noticed;

    http://cns.miis.edu/reports/pdfs/aum_chrn.pdf
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited October 2014
    antifrank said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, huzzah for the Jews! [I did actually know that, but it was quite some time ago that it occurred and is certainly not due to the modern tidal wave of immigration].

    antifrank's list neatly sidesteps the difference between "immigration" and "mass immigration".

    How so?

    Sir Robert McAlpine's deathbed wish was as follows:

    “If the men wish to honour my death, allow them two minutes’ silence; but keep the big mixer going, and keep Paddy behind it.”

    Do you think that was done with limited immigration? Curiously, the descendants of "Paddy" are among the most vociferous opponents of current mass immigration.

    In 1945, there were four Indian restaurants in the whole of the UK. Do you think it became Britain's most popular meal out without mass immigration? Not to mention Chinese and Italian food, and all the other 300+ cuisines that you can find in London alone.

    Do you think that the rhythms of west Indian and African music would have been absorbed into mainstream European music without mass immigration? More recently, Balkan rhythms have started making their way into the charts too (Sam and the Womp's "Bom Bom Bom" springs to mind). I expect we'll see quite a bit more of that - anyone after musical tips, search out the Boban & Marko Markovic Orchestra and Felix Lajko.

    The British public are sufficiently open-minded and confident about hard-working foreigners to vote a Hungarian troupe as winners of Britain's Got Talent (something that would be unthinkable in most other countries). It's the pb public that seems to be struggling more.

    It all depends how you define "mass" immigration. The complaints (although I'm not a Kipper) are mostly from the recent years. That is the right-hand side of these graphs:-

    https://www.quandl.com/c/uk/uk-population-data

  • antifrank said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, huzzah for the Jews! [I did actually know that, but it was quite some time ago that it occurred and is certainly not due to the modern tidal wave of immigration].

    antifrank's list neatly sidesteps the difference between "immigration" and "mass immigration".

    How so?

    Sir Robert McAlpine's deathbed wish was as follows:

    “If the men wish to honour my death, allow them two minutes’ silence; but keep the big mixer going, and keep Paddy behind it.”

    Do you think that was done with limited immigration? Curiously, the descendants of "Paddy" are among the most vociferous opponents of current mass immigration.

    In 1945, there were four Indian restaurants in the whole of the UK. Do you think it became Britain's most popular meal out without mass immigration? Not to mention Chinese and Italian food, and all the other 300+ cuisines that you can find in London alone.

    Do you think that the rhythms of west Indian and African music would have been absorbed into mainstream European music without mass immigration? More recently, Balkan rhythms have started making their way into the charts too (Sam and the Womp's "Bom Bom Bom" springs to mind). I expect we'll see quite a bit more of that - anyone after musical tips, search out the Boban & Marko Markovic Orchestra and Felix Lajko.

    The British public are sufficiently open-minded and confident about hard-working foreigners to vote a Hungarian troupe as winners of Britain's Got Talent (something that would be unthinkable in most other countries). It's the pb public that seems to be struggling more.

    There are a lot of cultural similarities between the Irish and the British which allowed them to integrate easily.

    There's loads of Thai restaurants without mass immigration from there. Some Indian and African beats aren't going to be topping Beethoven any time soon I'd imagine. And nice try at painting anyone opposed to mass immigration as racist at the end there too.

    This just reads as the usual guff from the pro-immigration brigade, someone somewhere must have a decent argument for it, but I've yet to see it.

    Fair play though for not adding the "Britain was built on immigration" fallacy that usually gets trotted out.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    TOPPING said:

    Socrates said:

    Roger said:

    Anorak

    'I'd go with amoral, rather than evil."

    I don't know or care but if Socrates can't curb his repulsive and obvious prurience for more than a few minutes then he'll probably clear the site which is a shame because there are some interesting contributions not least Henry's.

    The sexual abuse and exploitation of children is the modern day equivalent of the Transatlantic slave trade. It wrecks lives and many of the victims will never feel safe or be able to hold down a healthy romantic relationship again. When we have an epidemic of this on our own shores - to the tune of thousands of victims - and the authorities refuse to take action it is an absolute scandal. The fact that you think alarm over this is "prurience" shows what a despicable person you are. Although not as despicable as your previous defence of a paedophile.
    Jeez we get it; there was a failure whether because of PC-gone-mad hesitation to act or wilful turning of a blind eye or something. It was a group of men, often from the same demographic/culture/religion who abused children. Lots of them.

    But does it tar all people from the same culture/religion/demographic? Of course not. It is absurd to say it does and the more you bang on about it the worse you look, I'm afraid. You are not the lone brave voice speaking out against injustice on behalf of the powerless, it is more sinister than that.

    If you look for patterns hard enough in the river currents you will find all kinds of monsters.

    Why even the leader of these people, the Pope himself, has acknowledged the problem which still doesn't mean that every Catholic is a child abuser.

    I mean you were talking about Catholics, weren't you?
    perhaps it was DJs
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2014
    I find it funny that Nick Clegg was lambasting the SNP and UKIP for giving "easy answers", when Clegg is the one who is really peddling the pie-in-the-sky fantasy. "The Lib Dems will give you economic competence and compassion for the poor and protection for public services". The two things directly contadict eachother. If you want to help the poor and improve services, that will inevitably cost money and will involve the rich and big businesses taking a hit. If you want "economic competence", i.e. cuts and prioritising the deficit over everything else, that will inevitably mean poor people getting smashed no matter how you do it.

    There's a legitimate argument to have EITHER economic competence OR compassion for the poor, but this fantasyland nonsense that it's possible to have both (peddled by the Lib Dems as well as unfortunately by the Blairites in control of the Labour Party and the smug Guardianista commentariat) really needs to stop. If you have one option then that necessarily makes the other impossible.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I didn't see Ed's speech but I'm guessing Clegg's was a lot better given the media coverage of the former.
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited October 2014
    isam said:

    isam said:


    It would be easy to land this at the feet of Labour’s general election co-ordinator of 2010 and today, Douglas Alexander. Schooled in the era of New Labour where it was privately proclaimed that disaffected Labour supporters would ‘have nowhere else to go’. The party is paying the price for excessively focusing on a narrow strip of Tory-Labour swing voters in southern marginal at the expense of the new ‘swing voters’ for Labour to appeal to swinging from either voting for Labour, to UKIP or to not voting for anyone at all.

    It is UKIP who are sweeping up those votes as well all down the eastern coastal region (where they previously mainly benefitted Labour)

    Kevin Maguire has written.....

    The same sort of left-wing empty buzz phrase driven gobbledegook that will drive these voters into UKIP's arms. 'Pledge cards" are just another accessory of the insincere New Labour years

    with UKIP expert Rob Ford

    Expert? When they categorise Boston & Skegness, which polled over 50% for UKIP at the Euros, has UKIP 20 points ahead in a poll a few weeks back, delivered all UKIP County Councillors in 2013 and where the incumbent Tory MP is standing down, as being of the most minor risk when arguably it should be categorised alongside Thanet South (which Ford and Goodwin originally categorised only the 142nd most likely seat), then he's hardly an expert. Frankly their assessments seem all over the place and I suspect that their model is wrong.

    The reality is Ford and Goodwin wrote the first and only book on the subject. That just puts them in the right place at the right time. It doesn't make them experts in anything and I imagine after the next election they will disown their own work and write a new tome that is far better informed.

    Mike Smithson tweeted a link to a scathing review of their book earlier
    Have you got the link?

    Here you are

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB · 7h6 hours ago
    Excellent critique of the Goodwin & Ford book on the rise of UKIP http://livesrunning.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/ukip-a-party-of-the-dispossessed-taking-votes-from-labour/

    Certainly an interesting dismantling of the Goodwin / Ford tome but it still doesn't answer the question why UKIP have most prospered largely in the Eastern coastal region and largely away from the imaginary character types that that analysis focuses on.

    I suspect a large part of the problem is they seem to consider the problem from the restricted prism of an urban liberal outlook when I suspect most of the people who are voting UKIP are the very opposite of urban liberals. Basically they just don't get it.....
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    antifrank said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, huzzah for the Jews! [I did actually know that, but it was quite some time ago that it occurred and is certainly not due to the modern tidal wave of immigration].

    antifrank's list neatly sidesteps the difference between "immigration" and "mass immigration".

    How so?

    Sir Robert McAlpine's deathbed wish was as follows:

    “If the men wish to honour my death, allow them two minutes’ silence; but keep the big mixer going, and keep Paddy behind it.”

    Do you think that was done with limited immigration? Curiously, the descendants of "Paddy" are among the most vociferous opponents of current mass immigration.

    In 1945, there were four Indian restaurants in the whole of the UK. Do you think it became Britain's most popular meal out without mass immigration? Not to mention Chinese and Italian food, and all the other 300+ cuisines that you can find in London alone.

    Do you think that the rhythms of west Indian and African music would have been absorbed into mainstream European music without mass immigration? More recently, Balkan rhythms have started making their way into the charts too (Sam and the Womp's "Bom Bom Bom" springs to mind). I expect we'll see quite a bit more of that - anyone after musical tips, search out the Boban & Marko Markovic Orchestra and Felix Lajko.

    The British public are sufficiently open-minded and confident about hard-working foreigners to vote a Hungarian troupe as winners of Britain's Got Talent (something that would be unthinkable in most other countries). It's the pb public that seems to be struggling more.

    There are a lot of cultural similarities between the Irish and the British which allowed them to integrate easily.

    There's loads of Thai restaurants without mass immigration from there. Some Indian and African beats aren't going to be topping Beethoven any time soon I'd imagine. And nice try at painting anyone opposed to mass immigration as racist at the end there too.

    This just reads as the usual guff from the pro-immigration brigade, someone somewhere must have a decent argument for it, but I've yet to see it.

    Fair play though for not adding the "Britain was built on immigration" fallacy that usually gets trotted out.
    That was the first thing he said in his earlier post on the subject
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Interesting:

    Will Douglas Carswell get to set the date of the Rochester by-election?

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/telegraphwire/2014/10/08/will-douglas-carswell-get-to-set-the-date-of-the-rochester-by-election/
  • Danny565 said:

    I find it funny that Nick Clegg was lambasting the SNP and UKIP for giving "easy answers", when Clegg is the one who is really peddling the pie-in-the-sky fantasy. "The Lib Dems will give you economic competence and compassion for the poor and protection for public services". The two things directly contadict eachother. If you want to help the poor and improve services, that will inevitably cost money and will involve the rich and big businesses taking a hit. If you want "economic competence", i.e. cuts and prioritising the deficit over everything else, that will inevitably mean poor people getting smashed no matter how you do it.

    There's a legitimate argument to have EITHER economic competence OR compassion for the poor, but this fantasyland nonsense that it's possible to have both (peddled by the Lib Dems as well as unfortunately by the Blairites in control of the Labour Party and the smug Guardianista commentariat) really needs to stop. If you have one option then that necessarily makes the other impossible.

    The art of a successful Libdem politician is to face both ways simultaneously without people noticing. Clearly Clegg has failed.......
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Socrates said:

    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.

    From a man who on this thread has compared the undoubted troubles in Rotherham with the transatlantic slave trade, an industry that resulted in millions of deaths, I don't worry too much if you think the line is ridiculously weak.
  • Socrates said:

    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.

    You've got to bear in mind that the biggest positive is the fact they get to feel morally superior on the issue. Also they don't feel the negative effects as they make damned sure they don't live too near the troubled areas.

    The only way this will change will be when it is considered immoral to flood poor areas with third world immigration. Then of course it will be because the Tories encouraged it to help big business.
  • For newcomers to the site "floating voter" is PB code for "Tory".
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.

    From a man who on this thread has compared the undoubted troubles in Rotherham with the transatlantic slave trade, an industry that resulted in millions of deaths, I don't worry too much if you think the line is ridiculously weak.
    Why don't you read the post you're referring to again and realise what you've done wrong?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.

    From a man who on this thread has compared the undoubted troubles in Rotherham with the transatlantic slave trade, an industry that resulted in millions of deaths, I don't worry too much if you think the line is ridiculously weak.
    Why don't you read the post you're referring to again and realise what you've done wrong?
    "modern day equivalent" is a comparison, and on this occasion, a particularly odious one.
  • antifrank said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, huzzah for the Jews! [I did actually know that, but it was quite some time ago that it occurred and is certainly not due to the modern tidal wave of immigration].

    antifrank's list neatly sidesteps the difference between "immigration" and "mass immigration".

    How so?

    Sir Robert McAlpine's deathbed wish was as follows:

    “If the men wish to honour my death, allow them two minutes’ silence; but keep the big mixer going, and keep Paddy behind it.”

    Do you think that was done with limited immigration? Curiously, the descendants of "Paddy" are among the most vociferous opponents of current mass immigration.

    In 1945, there were four Indian restaurants in the whole of the UK. Do you think it became Britain's most popular meal out without mass immigration? Not to mention Chinese and Italian food, and all the other 300+ cuisines that you can find in London alone.

    Do you think that the rhythms of west Indian and African music would have been absorbed into mainstream European music without mass immigration? More recently, Balkan rhythms have started making their way into the charts too (Sam and the Womp's "Bom Bom Bom" springs to mind). I expect we'll see quite a bit more of that - anyone after musical tips, search out the Boban & Marko Markovic Orchestra and Felix Lajko.

    The British public are sufficiently open-minded and confident about hard-working foreigners to vote a Hungarian troupe as winners of Britain's Got Talent (something that would be unthinkable in most other countries). It's the pb public that seems to be struggling more.

    It all depends how you define "mass" immigration. The complaints (although I'm not a Kipper) are mostly from the recent years. That is the right-hand side of these graphs:-

    https://www.quandl.com/c/uk/uk-population-data

    Put more simply the 20th Century as a whole was neutral in terms of migration, in fact there was marginally fewer immigrants than emigrants. The 21st century has seen an average net immigration of 200,000 per year adding approximately 3 million people to the population and much of it has been done without the government providing additional infrastructure to absorb the growth of population.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    When did Reckless actually resign ? Turning up at a UKIP conference is NOT resigning. An MP resigns when he writes to the Speaker presumably. Has he actually done so ?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Oh dear. Not talking about the elephant in the room. Well that's going to work...
    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    Did Dougie get the blame for the No campaign for Labour - IIRC he was supposedly in charge of electioneering for EdM. I may be totally out of date here. TBH, it's all a bit of blur.

    http://order-order.com/2014/10/08/exclusive-douglas-alexander-orders-gagging-of-internal-miliband-critics/
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2014

    Socrates said:

    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.

    You've got to bear in mind that the biggest positive is the fact they get to feel morally superior on the issue. Also they don't feel the negative effects as they make damned sure they don't live too near the troubled areas.

    The only way this will change will be when it is considered immoral to flood poor areas with third world immigration. Then of course it will be because the Tories encouraged it to help big business.
    Why don't the government impose a limit on how many immigrants can claim benefits/social housing per constituency? One of the biggest problems with mass immigration, in social terms, is that the immigrants are not evenly spread throughout the country but concentrated in a few areas

    In fact its probably the biggest problem with mass immigration, and causes all of the negative effects that people affected complain about. Far more a big deal than any trouble caused by the character of the immigrants themselves which is why people have a good opinion of immigrants they meet one on one, while complaining about immigration on the whole

    It also gives the impression to people living in those areas, that there are far more immigrants in the country than is actually the case, and following from that, gives smart arses the chance to mock them when they grossly overestimate the number.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    What sort of working class NHS worker is the Labour candidate? Is she a doctor, a nurse, a radiographer or just a trade union rep as well as a councillor? It might help if she was more open about it when she tries to be prolier than thou.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    edited October 2014

    For newcomers to the site "floating voter" is PB code for "Tory".

    PB Tory? :)
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.

    From a man who on this thread has compared the undoubted troubles in Rotherham with the transatlantic slave trade, an industry that resulted in millions of deaths, I don't worry too much if you think the line is ridiculously weak.
    Why don't you read the post you're referring to again and realise what you've done wrong?
    "modern day equivalent" is a comparison, and on this occasion, a particularly odious one.
    That wasn't what you did wrong. Try again.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    surbiton said:

    When did Reckless actually resign ? Turning up at a UKIP conference is NOT resigning. An MP resigns when he writes to the Speaker presumably. Has he actually done so ?
    30th September:

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2014/september/mark-reckless-appointed-to-the-three-hundreds-of-chiltern/
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2014
    surbiton said:

    When did Reckless actually resign ? Turning up at a UKIP conference is NOT resigning. An MP resigns when he writes to the Speaker presumably. Has he actually done so ?
    He must have done because he's now officially Crown Steward and Bailiff of the three Chiltern Hundreds of Stoke, Desborough and Burnham (since 27th Septemember 2014):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Steward_and_Bailiff_of_the_three_Chiltern_Hundreds_of_Stoke,_Desborough_and_Burnham
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    edited October 2014
    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.

    From a man who on this thread has compared the undoubted troubles in Rotherham with the transatlantic slave trade, an industry that resulted in millions of deaths, I don't worry too much if you think the line is ridiculously weak.
    Why don't you read the post you're referring to again and realise what you've done wrong?
    "modern day equivalent" is a comparison, and on this occasion, a particularly odious one.
    The global sex trade is a modern form of slavery.
  • isam said:

    Socrates said:

    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.

    You've got to bear in mind that the biggest positive is the fact they get to feel morally superior on the issue. Also they don't feel the negative effects as they make damned sure they don't live too near the troubled areas.

    The only way this will change will be when it is considered immoral to flood poor areas with third world immigration. Then of course it will be because the Tories encouraged it to help big business.
    Why don't the government only make a limit on how many immigrants can claim benefits/social housing per constituency? One of the biggest problems with mass immigration, in social terms, is that the immigrants are not evenly spread throughout the country but concentrated in a few areas

    In fact its probably the biggest problem with mass immigration, and causes all of the negative effects that people affected complain about, far more a big deal than any trouble caused by the character of the immigrants themselves which is why people have a good opinion of immigrants they meet one on one, while complaining about immigration on the whole

    It also gives the impression to people living in those areas, that there are far more immigrants in the country than there actually are, and following from that, gives smart arses the chance to mock them when they grossly overestimate the number.
    Why? Because to those in charge appearing to not be racist is more important than the well-being of the people who have to live with the fallout.

    And of course we might not of been able to hear Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Well the conferences are over, we are nearing the end of this parliament and the most important thing that gave rise to UKIP and the collapse of the LD is this:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/11148559/Graphic-How-the-Liberal-Democrats-differ-from-the-Conservatives.html
  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721
    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.

    You've got to bear in mind that the biggest positive is the fact they get to feel morally superior on the issue. Also they don't feel the negative effects as they make damned sure they don't live too near the troubled areas.

    The only way this will change will be when it is considered immoral to flood poor areas with third world immigration. Then of course it will be because the Tories encouraged it to help big business.
    Why don't the government impose a limit on how many immigrants can claim benefits/social housing per constituency? One of the biggest problems with mass immigration, in social terms, is that the immigrants are not evenly spread throughout the country but concentrated in a few areas


    Or simply block benefits and health care to immigrants. Lots of reasons why this can´t be done to EU migrants, how about to non-EU, or at least where there are no reciprocal agreements.

    Why are people queuing up to get into the UK in Calais? They know, and cannot believe, that a foreign government will house them and give them money. And even look after them in hospital. For free.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    At the risk of putting a match onto gunpowder...


    "An e-mail seen by Breitbart London makes reference to former Rochdale council leader, Knowl View School, and the deceased, paedophile Member of Parliament for Rochdale Cyril Smith. The e-mail, which was circulated by a Labour Member of Parliament's researcher in November 2012, read:

    "You will have noted that Rochdale is currently in the eye of a media storm regarding child abuse and cover ups.

    "The story that has yet to break is the role of the council leader, XXXXXXXXXXXXX, in all of this. He was given files on the abuse at Knowl View school and Cyril Smith over 10 years ago but he did nothing because the Labour Party had done a deal with the Liberals to keep quiet on Cyril. This was in exchange for the Liberals keeping quiet on allegations that XXXXXXXXXXXXX had sex with two girls with special needs that were in his care."


    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/10/08/Exclusive-Lib-Lab-Paedo-Pact-Alleged-in-Rochdale
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited October 2014
    TGOHF said:
    There are more alleged things that occured during the Lib-Lab pact of the late seventies.
    The Labour government then was so desperate to stay in power they did a lot of deals with a lot of shady people.
    Including a person alleged to be involved in a dog murder.
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited October 2014
    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.

    You've got to bear in mind that the biggest positive is the fact they get to feel morally superior on the issue. Also they don't feel the negative effects as they make damned sure they don't live too near the troubled areas.

    The only way this will change will be when it is considered immoral to flood poor areas with third world immigration. Then of course it will be because the Tories encouraged it to help big business.
    Why don't the government impose a limit on how many immigrants can claim benefits/social housing per constituency? One of the biggest problems with mass immigration, in social terms, is that the immigrants are not evenly spread throughout the country but concentrated in a few areas

    In fact its probably the biggest problem with mass immigration, and causes all of the negative effects that people affected complain about. Far more a big deal than any trouble caused by the character of the immigrants themselves which is why people have a good opinion of immigrants they meet one on one, while complaining about immigration on the whole

    It also gives the impression to people living in those areas, that there are far more immigrants in the country than is actually the case, and following from that, gives smart arses the chance to mock them when they grossly overestimate the number.
    Well apart from effectively devolving immigration to a constituency level with all the bureaucratic considerations (administration, enforcement etc etc) and therefore the cost implications that would have, I suspect there would be all sorts of breaches of the Lisbon Treaty (it would clearly breach of the concept of free movement), the HRA, the ECHR and god knows what else). Beyond that there is the basic common sense argument that in this day and age, in the UK, the powers that be cannot force people to live where they don't want to.

    Much as I agree we need to look at how we rebalance the distribution of population across the country, government intervention is unlikely to work.

    PS We cannot run a national system effectively currently. What chance 650 systems?
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    I've availed myself of Shadsy's generous offer of Charlotte Rose to beat the LibDem in Clacton at 25-1.Considering the Libs have been beaten by Bus Pass Elvis and his Party in an election,the GMB represents sex workers,and the fascinating back story of Charlotte, standing.surely that makes a case for a value bet.Add in a bit of swinging and the Paisley pyjamas,you can see the current political attraction.In fact,politics,power and all that is all very sexy.Enough,for me,at any rate to consider switching my vote for her as Teresa wasn't standing.
  • antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    antifrank said:

    Socrates said:

    @antifrank

    Perhaps Labour could try that line on the doorsteps of Rochdale. "Yes, we know you've had issues with mass immigration, but remember, you've got Sam and the Womps "Bom Bom Bom".

    It's a ridiculously weak line. Yes, of course mass immigration will have its effects on the wider culture. The question is whether it's a net positive.

    From a man who on this thread has compared the undoubted troubles in Rotherham with the transatlantic slave trade, an industry that resulted in millions of deaths, I don't worry too much if you think the line is ridiculously weak.
    Why don't you read the post you're referring to again and realise what you've done wrong?
    "modern day equivalent" is a comparison, and on this occasion, a particularly odious one.
    Young girls are being forced into sex slavery, what would you rather it was compared to exactly?

    I know that when losing the argument on immigration it is normal behaviour to pretend to get offended about something, but this seems particularly weak.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    isam said:

    At the risk of putting a match onto gunpowder...


    "An e-mail seen by Breitbart London makes reference to former Rochdale council leader, Knowl View School, and the deceased, paedophile Member of Parliament for Rochdale Cyril Smith. The e-mail, which was circulated by a Labour Member of Parliament's researcher in November 2012, read:

    "You will have noted that Rochdale is currently in the eye of a media storm regarding child abuse and cover ups.

    "The story that has yet to break is the role of the council leader, XXXXXXXXXXXXX, in all of this. He was given files on the abuse at Knowl View school and Cyril Smith over 10 years ago but he did nothing because the Labour Party had done a deal with the Liberals to keep quiet on Cyril. This was in exchange for the Liberals keeping quiet on allegations that XXXXXXXXXXXXX had sex with two girls with special needs that were in his care."


    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/10/08/Exclusive-Lib-Lab-Paedo-Pact-Alleged-in-Rochdale

    Too late to impact the Heywood by-election though.
    I wonder who XXXXXXXXXXXXX is ?
  • One thing Clegg said "we are now the only party holding firm to decent, liberal values"

    DECENT? That makes him a hostage to the evidence of history.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Labour's job is quite easy but they will make it difficult for themselves.

    Increase taxes on the rich. Increase the minimum wage to £10 an hour and save a fortune for taxpayers on Tax Credits.

    Guarantee working class pensioners that the system of pension rises will be kept and do a deal with the middle classes.

    How? My favourite would be lower inheritance tax threshold to £200,000 and make care for the elderly free.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Why are we sending troops to Sierra Leone and not, say, France? I thought the colonial link was a thing of the past, but it seems not...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758


    The reality is Ford and Goodwin wrote the first and only book on the subject. That just puts them in the right place at the right time. It doesn't make them experts in anything and I imagine after the next election they will disown their own work and write a new tome that is far better informed.

    How naïve you are.

    They won't disown it at all... just write an updated edition incorporating the 2015 results

    Kerching!

    ;-)
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Free movement of peoples is not a one-way street.The UK benefits enormously from free movement.

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2014/07/01/the-uk-has-been-one-of-the-main-beneficiaries-from-free-movement-of-labour-in-the-eu/
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited October 2014
    THe commissioner designated for Energy Union, Alenka Bratušek from Slovenia, has been rejected by the Environment and Energy committee.

    Miguel Cañete (Spain) has survived the vote by the same committee.

    Tibor Navracsics (Hungary) has been rejected as Education, Culture, Youth and Citizenship Commissioner but he has won the voto on being fit to be a Commissioner. Junker must move him now.

    Votes on Lord Hill and Pierre Moscovici are scheduled for tomorrow.

  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721
    I noticed Clegg was peddling the old canard of "fair" taxes.

    We all know what "fair" means. Someone else pays up. Doesn´t matter who that is as long as they are "rich".

    Rich=anyone richer than myself. (Except the Millipede brothers and their IHT wheeze)
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Dave Lee Travis becomes a non person, episodes with him are now removed from TOTP repeats.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/08/bbc-top-of-the-pops-dave-lee-travis

    Why not also airbrush all references to him as well? It seems to be a very Orwellian move by The BBC to almost deny the existence of a former presenter.

  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Despite movements in the polls my money is still on Labour to fall short by 25 seats.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    THe commissioner designated for Energy Union, Alenka Bratušek from Slovenia, has been rejected by the Environment and Energy committee.

    Miguel Cañete (Spain) has survived the vote by the same committee.

    Tibor Navracsics (Hungary) has been rejected as Education, Culture, Youth and Citizenship Commissioner but he has won the voto on being fit to be a Commissioner. Junker must move him now.

    Votes on Lord Hill and Pierre Moscovici are scheduled for tomorrow.

    Why the hell do we need an Education, Culture, Youth and Citizenship Commissioner? It's the sort of ludicrous title you might get in one of Orwell's dystopias.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    Copper S

    "This just reads as the usual guff from the pro-immigration brigade, someone somewhere must have a decent argument for it, but I've yet to see it."


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5n0DLYbYqc
  • dr_spyn said:

    Dave Lee Travis becomes a non person, episodes with him are now removed from TOTP repeats.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/08/bbc-top-of-the-pops-dave-lee-travis

    Why not also airbrush all references to him as well? It seems to be a very Orwellian move by The BBC to almost deny the existence of a former presenter.

    Yeah but he did sort of touch a woman's boob 20 years ago.
  • Scott_P said:

    @GuidoFawkes: And she's gone, Speaker's spokeswoman after our story yesterday http://t.co/g4NzDaI4bH

    McGuinness quite rightly sacked after that little outburst.- Impartial? what was she thinking?
    No it was the Lib Dem idea of a "decent" balanced unbiaised speech.
  • Fenman said:

    Labour's job is quite easy but they will make it difficult for themselves.

    Increase taxes on the rich. Increase the minimum wage to £10 an hour and save a fortune for taxpayers on Tax Credits.

    Guarantee working class pensioners that the system of pension rises will be kept and do a deal with the middle classes.

    How? My favourite would be lower inheritance tax threshold to £200,000 and make care for the elderly free.

    Have you any idea how many charities (including care homes) and small businesses that would sink? Pressure on the NHS up, public sector spending up, unemployment up etc etc etc
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    At least we are sending troops to Sierra Leone and not Syria.

    BTW Sierra Leone is the only place in the world where Tony Blair is a hero.

    That will come as a shock to our squaddies.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    isam said:

    At the risk of putting a match onto gunpowder...


    "An e-mail seen by Breitbart London makes reference to former Rochdale council leader, Knowl View School, and the deceased, paedophile Member of Parliament for Rochdale Cyril Smith. The e-mail, which was circulated by a Labour Member of Parliament's researcher in November 2012, read:

    "You will have noted that Rochdale is currently in the eye of a media storm regarding child abuse and cover ups.

    "The story that has yet to break is the role of the council leader, XXXXXXXXXXXXX, in all of this. He was given files on the abuse at Knowl View school and Cyril Smith over 10 years ago but he did nothing because the Labour Party had done a deal with the Liberals to keep quiet on Cyril. This was in exchange for the Liberals keeping quiet on allegations that XXXXXXXXXXXXX had sex with two girls with special needs that were in his care."


    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/10/08/Exclusive-Lib-Lab-Paedo-Pact-Alleged-in-Rochdale

    It's a good job that UKIP screen all their members, candidates and pols for potential deviancy, isn't it?
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited October 2014
    Correction: vote on Lord Hill is tonight

    · ECON/EMPL/ITRE Vote on Katainen: 19:30 room JAN 2Q2

    · ECON Vote on Hill: 20:00 room JAN 2Q2

    · ECON Vote on Moscovici:20:30 room JAN 2Q2

    · ECON/EMPL Vote on Dombrovskis: 21:00 room JAN 2Q2
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    Fenman said:

    Labour's job is quite easy but they will make it difficult for themselves.

    Increase taxes on the rich. Increase the minimum wage to £10 an hour and save a fortune for taxpayers on Tax Credits.

    Guarantee working class pensioners that the system of pension rises will be kept and do a deal with the middle classes.

    How? My favourite would be lower inheritance tax threshold to £200,000 and make care for the elderly free.

    Have you any idea how many charities (including care homes) and small businesses that would sink? Pressure on the NHS up, public sector spending up, unemployment up etc etc etc
    Not saying I think it's a good idea; just how they could win an election...
  • Free movement of peoples is not a one-way street.The UK benefits enormously from free movement.

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2014/07/01/the-uk-has-been-one-of-the-main-beneficiaries-from-free-movement-of-labour-in-the-eu/

    Perhaps we should keep free movement of labour from Western Europe and stop all the immigration from the third world.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    For newcomers to the site "floating voter" is PB code for "Tory".

    For newcomers to the site any user name including the word Bob (there may be many depending upon the state of flounce) May be safely ignored.
  • Fenman said:

    Labour's job is quite easy but they will make it difficult for themselves.

    Increase taxes on the rich. Increase the minimum wage to £10 an hour and save a fortune for taxpayers on Tax Credits.

    Guarantee working class pensioners that the system of pension rises will be kept and do a deal with the middle classes.

    How? My favourite would be lower inheritance tax threshold to £200,000 and make care for the elderly free.

    La maladie hollandaise. Just what the doctor ordered.
  • Roger said:

    Copper S

    "This just reads as the usual guff from the pro-immigration brigade, someone somewhere must have a decent argument for it, but I've yet to see it."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5n0DLYbYqc

    Well that's me convinced open the floodgates.

    Or at least don't worry about closing them.
  • AndyJS said:

    Why are we sending troops to Sierra Leone and not, say, France? I thought the colonial link was a thing of the past, but it seems not...

    Sierra Leone is still a member of the Commonwealth, and the official language is the King's Queen's.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Miss Cyclefree, cheers for that link. Must say I'm rather dubious.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    edited October 2014
    While on the subject of ads that tell an important story I'm hoping Labour start producing some hard hitting stuff like this. It wont be difficult because the theme that this government doesn't care is already out there and negative campaigns can work if done well......

    http://www.howardguard.co.uk/webmovies/Vietnam_Veterans.mov
This discussion has been closed.