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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Is masterly inactivity the government’s best course?

It is not unusual for the Queen’s Speeches of any given government to thin out as the parliament progresses.  Inevitably, those policies it ranked as most significant when it took office are likely to be introduced first, alongside the quick wins that help it to generate its own momentum.

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PBModerator

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edmundintokyo

Oddly the government hasn't been having a lot of trouble with regular, substantive legislation. Their problems have been with symbolic stuff that was to do with branding or party management, like gay marriage and referendums over non-existent treaties.

Is there any evidence that the government is having a hard time getting ordinary, boring legislation through? If not, since neither pandering to the Tory base nor systematically offending them seems to be doing Cameron much good, can't they just stop dicking around and get on with governing?

CarlottaVance

Good thread Mr Herdson - the govt has plenty to do implementing what it has already legislated for - the HoC could usefully scrutinise the executive more and legislate less.

AveryLP

FPT @Richard_Tyndall and @another_richard

Richard_Tyndall said:

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

Tim/Another Richard - But Farage himself went to Dulwich (even if his deputy, Paul Nuttall, went to a comp)

But Farage, or for that matter Blair or Boris, doesn't give the impression of looking down upon those who didn't.

Neither did the likes of Douglas-Home or Douglas Hurd. They might have appeared rather grand and somewhat out of touch but they never exuded the petulant arrogance that the Cameroons and their supporters do.

Its one thing being born into a more privileged position in life but people with real class don't think themselves better or need to think themselves better than others because of it.

But the Cameroons wallow in a "I'm superior to you and I want you to feel inferior" mentality. The arrogance and insecurity which the Cameroons suffer from REQUIRES everyone else to feel inferior.

That's the mentality which causes revolutions and that's what we're now seeing on the political right.

Indeed,

in a number of interviews Farage has said one of the reasons he enjoyed Dulwich so much is that it had a very large number of scholarship pupils which meant there was a much wider mix of social backgrounds compared to other public schools.

Nigel Farage is dissembling.

Scholarships to public schools are generally offered on merit alone and usually provide parents with remission of between 10% to 25% of annual fees.

More important to low income earning parents are means-tested bursaries which are not only won on examination results and which can provide up to 100% of fees to qualifying parents.

The Sutton Trust in a 2010 academic report estimated that the average amount of fees remitted by independent schools through both scholarships and bursaries was 7.8% of total fee revenue.

Bursaries require the school to have large capital endowments and are therefore tend to be more plentiful from the older foundations who have acquired income generating land and property portfolios over many centuries.

Eton College, for example, aims to provide financial assistance on fees for a third of its pupils (c. 325). Eton has the highest proportion of any public school of pupils receiving 100% of fees paid. It has also recently raised £25 million in charitable donations to create a New Foundation Scholarship fund targetted solely at former state school pupils.

Dulwich College, as an old foundation from 1619, will have more endowment funds than most schools founded in the 19th and 20th century, and it offers an above average package of both bursaries and of scholarships awarded on academic merit and for proficiency in Art, Music and Sport.

Dulwich's schemes, however, are nowhere near as generous or as wide in extent as those of Eton. For Farage to claim that he had a more down to earth education because he mixed with a greater proportion of scholarship pupils than David Cameron is simply bunkum.

There will of course be cultural differences between Dulwich and Eton, but these are more likely to derive from its more local catchment area (less than 10% of Dulwich pupils board); its metropolitan location and outlook; and its good but not table topping ranking and reputation (oh, the tyranny of small differences!).

Farage is as much a privileged Old Alleynian as Cameron is a privileged Old Etonian. If any public school politician has a claim to be a man of the people, it is Boris, who owes the privilege of his education to a combination of his academic ability and the generosity of Eton's benefactors.

AndyJS

Interesting that the goverment has put a price on equality: £4 billion to be precise.

That would have been the cost of implementing civil partnerships for everyone:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10080015/Its-time-we-knew-the-real-gay-marriage-story.html

Neil

@AndyJS

4 billion was not the cost of implementing civil partnerships for everyone - think about it, civil partnerships have less pension rights than marriage, so if straight couples took civil partnership instead of marriage then there would be a saving rather than a cost. 4 billion is the answer to a different question.

And if anyone was wondering what a "swivel-eyed loony" is that article certainly helps.

Richard_Tyndall

AveryLP said:

FPT @Richard_Tyndall and @another_richard

Richard_Tyndall said:

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

Tim/Another Richard - But Farage himself went to Dulwich (even if his deputy, Paul Nuttall, went to a comp)

But Farage, or for that matter Blair or Boris, doesn't give the impression of looking down upon those who didn't.

Neither did the likes of Douglas-Home or Douglas Hurd. They might have appeared rather grand and somewhat out of touch but they never exuded the petulant arrogance that the Cameroons and their supporters do.

Its one thing being born into a more privileged position in life but people with real class don't think themselves better or need to think themselves better than others because of it.

But the Cameroons wallow in a "I'm superior to you and I want you to feel inferior" mentality. The arrogance and insecurity which the Cameroons suffer from REQUIRES everyone else to feel inferior.

That's the mentality which causes revolutions and that's what we're now seeing on the political right.

Indeed,

in a number of interviews Farage has said one of the reasons he enjoyed Dulwich so much is that it had a very large number of scholarship pupils which meant there was a much wider mix of social backgrounds compared to other public schools.

Nigel Farage is dissembling.

Scholarships to public schools are generally offered on merit alone and usually provide parents with remission of between 10% to 25% of annual fees.

More important to low income earning parents are means-tested bursaries which are not only won on examination results and which can provide up to 100% of fees to qualifying parents.

The Sutton Trust in a 2010 academic report estimated that the average amount of fees remitted by independent schools through both scholarships and bursaries was 7.8% of total fee revenue.

Bursaries require the school to have large capital endowments and are therefore tend to be more plentiful from the older foundations who have acquired income generating land and property portfolios over many centuries.

Eton College, for example, aims to provide financial assistance on fees for a third of its pupils (c. 325). Eton has the highest proportion of any public school of pupils receiving 100% of fees paid. It has also recently raised £25 million in charitable donations to create a New Foundation Scholarship fund targetted solely at former state school pupils.

Dulwich College, as an old foundation from 1619, will have more endowment funds than most schools founded in the 19th and 20th century, and it offers an above average package of both bursaries and of scholarships awarded on academic merit and for proficiency in Art, Music and Sport.

Dulwich's schemes, however, are nowhere near as generous or as wide in extent as those of Eton. For Farage to claim that he had a more down to earth education because he mixed with a greater proportion of scholarship pupils than David Cameron is simply bunkum.

There will of course be cultural differences between Dulwich and Eton, but these are more likely to derive from its more local catchment area (less than 10% of Dulwich pupils board); its metropolitan location and outlook; and its good but not table topping ranking and reputation (oh, the tyranny of small differences!).

Farage is as much a privileged Old Alleynian as Cameron is a privileged Old Etonian. If anyone has a claim to be a lucky man of the people, it is Boris, who owes the privilege of his education to the generosity of Eton's benefactors.

And the point of all that was what?

All Farage has said is that there were a lot of scholarship kids at his school. He made no comment beyond the fact that he liked that. Whatever the reason for more or less scholarships is immaterial. What matters is the way people perceive Farage compared to Cameron. Cameron talks down to people and comes over as posh, privileged and arrogant, Farage does not. If Eton had more scholarship kids than Dulwich, clearly Cameron saw them simply as a useful source of footstools and toast-racks.

That is your problem not mine.

Oh and as an aside as I have said before I still think Farage is the wrong person to lead UKIP. But that is not because of his personality or the way he relates to people. If that was all that mattered he would be perfect. But I still believe he lacks the organisational skills and insight into politics to maximise the UKIP appeal.

Garethofthevale

AveryLP said:

FPT @Richard_Tyndall and @another_richard

Richard_Tyndall said:

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

Tim/Another Richard - But Farage himself went to Dulwich (even if his deputy, Paul Nuttall, went to a comp)

But Farage, or for that matter Blair or Boris, doesn't give the impression of looking down upon those who didn't.

Neither did the likes of Douglas-Home or Douglas Hurd. They might have appeared rather grand and somewhat out of touch but they never exuded the petulant arrogance that the Cameroons and their supporters do.

Its one thing being born into a more privileged position in life but people with real class don't think themselves better or need to think themselves better than others because of it.

But the Cameroons wallow in a "I'm superior to you and I want you to feel inferior" mentality. The arrogance and insecurity which the Cameroons suffer from REQUIRES everyone else to feel inferior.

That's the mentality which causes revolutions and that's what we're now seeing on the political right.

Indeed,

in a number of interviews Farage has said one of the reasons he enjoyed Dulwich so much is that it had a very large number of scholarship pupils which meant there was a much wider mix of social backgrounds compared to other public schools.

Nigel Farage is dissembling.

Scholarships to public schools are generally offered on merit alone and usually provide parents with remission of between 10% to 25% of annual fees.

More important to low income earning parents are means-tested bursaries which are not only won on examination results and which can provide up to 100% of fees to qualifying parents.

The Sutton Trust in a 2010 academic report estimated that the average amount of fees remitted by independent schools through both scholarships and bursaries was 7.8% of total fee revenue.

Bursaries require the school to have large capital endowments and are therefore tend to be more plentiful from the older foundations who have acquired income generating land and property portfolios over many centuries.

Eton College, for example, aims to provide financial assistance on fees for a third of its pupils (c. 325). Eton has the highest proportion of any public school of pupils receiving 100% of fees paid. It has also recently raised £25 million in charitable donations to create a New Foundation Scholarship fund targetted solely at former state school pupils.

Dulwich College, as an old foundation from 1619, will have more endowment funds than most schools founded in the 19th and 20th century, and it offers an above average package of both bursaries and of scholarships awarded on academic merit and for proficiency in Art, Music and Sport.

Dulwich's schemes, however, are nowhere near as generous or as wide in extent as those of Eton. For Farage to claim that he had a more down to earth education because he mixed with a greater proportion of scholarship pupils than David Cameron is simply bunkum.

There will of course be cultural differences between Dulwich and Eton, but these are more likely to derive from its more local catchment area (less than 10% of Dulwich pupils board); its metropolitan location and outlook; and its good but not table topping ranking and reputation (oh, the tyranny of small differences!).

Farage is as much a privileged Old Alleynian as Cameron is a privileged Old Etonian. If any public school politician has a claim to be a man of the people, it is Boris, who owes the privilege of his education to a combination of his academic ability and the generosity of Eton's benefactors.

This may be the case now but was it still the case in 1975 when Farage started at Dulwich?

AndyJS

New Zealand engaging in another super-collapse at Headingley:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/22656480

AndyJS

Local elections in Italy today and tomorrow:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22670691

david_kendrick1

At last--a topic on which I am sad expert. I was at Dulwich 59-67, and am therefore a somewhat older OA than Farage. His comments on his experiences at Dulwich are fair comment.

There was a scheme, called 'the Dulwich experiment' whereby around 90% of the boys were there on a 'free place', paid for by LCC, based on how well we did in the 11+. I don't remember the word 'scholarship' ever being used. If your father paid the fees, you were a 'thicky'.

It made for a hothouse atmoshere. For all the time I was there, each year, it was either us or Manchester Grammar which was the school with the most open scholarships and exhibitions to Oxbridge.

Dulwich had a fantastic reputation for getting boys into University. However, the school was about bottom, when ranked by their old boys' academic achievments when they got there.

Morris_Dancer

F1: for those of you who avoided falling into a coma, here's my post-race analysis:
http://politicalbetting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/monaco-post-race-analysis.html

AveryLP

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

FPT @Richard_Tyndall and @another_richard

Richard_Tyndall said:

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

Tim/Another Richard - But Farage himself went to Dulwich (even if his deputy, Paul Nuttall, went to a comp)

But Farage, or for that matter Blair or Boris, doesn't give the impression of looking down upon those who didn't.

Neither did the likes of Douglas-Home or Douglas Hurd. They might have appeared rather grand and somewhat out of touch but they never exuded the petulant arrogance that the Cameroons and their supporters do.

Its one thing being born into a more privileged position in life but people with real class don't think themselves better or need to think themselves better than others because of it.

But the Cameroons wallow in a "I'm superior to you and I want you to feel inferior" mentality. The arrogance and insecurity which the Cameroons suffer from REQUIRES everyone else to feel inferior.

That's the mentality which causes revolutions and that's what we're now seeing on the political right.

Indeed,

in a number of interviews Farage has said one of the reasons he enjoyed Dulwich so much is that it had a very large number of scholarship pupils which meant there was a much wider mix of social backgrounds compared to other public schools.

Nigel Farage is dissembling.

Scholarships to public schools are generally offered on merit alone and usually provide parents with remission of between 10% to 25% of annual fees.

More important to low income earning parents are means-tested bursaries which are not only won on examination results and which can provide up to 100% of fees to qualifying parents.

The Sutton Trust in a 2010 academic report estimated that the average amount of fees remitted by independent schools through both scholarships and bursaries was 7.8% of total fee revenue.

Bursaries require the school to have large capital endowments and are therefore tend to be more plentiful from the older foundations who have acquired income generating land and property portfolios over many centuries.

Eton College, for example, aims to provide financial assistance on fees for a third of its pupils (c. 325). Eton has the highest proportion of any public school of pupils receiving 100% of fees paid. It has also recently raised £25 million in charitable donations to create a New Foundation Scholarship fund targetted solely at former state school pupils.

Dulwich College, as an old foundation from 1619, will have more endowment funds than most schools founded in the 19th and 20th century, and it offers an above average package of both bursaries and of scholarships awarded on academic merit and for proficiency in Art, Music and Sport.

Dulwich's schemes, however, are nowhere near as generous or as wide in extent as those of Eton. For Farage to claim that he had a more down to earth education because he mixed with a greater proportion of scholarship pupils than David Cameron is simply bunkum.

There will of course be cultural differences between Dulwich and Eton, but these are more likely to derive from its more local catchment area (less than 10% of Dulwich pupils board); its metropolitan location and outlook; and its good but not table topping ranking and reputation (oh, the tyranny of small differences!).

Farage is as much a privileged Old Alleynian as Cameron is a privileged Old Etonian. If anyone has a claim to be a lucky man of the people, it is Boris, who owes the privilege of his education to the generosity of Eton's benefactors.

And the point of all that was what?

All Farage has said is that there were a lot of scholarship kids at his school. He made no comment beyond the fact that he liked that. Whatever the reason for more or less scholarships is immaterial. What matters is the way people perceive Farage compared to Cameron. Cameron talks down to people and comes over as posh, privileged and arrogant, Farage does not. If Eton had more scholarship kids than Dulwich, clearly Cameron saw them simply as a useful source of footstools and toast-racks.

That is your problem not mine.

Oh and as an aside as I have said before I still think Farage is the wrong person to lead UKIP. But that is not because of his personality or the way he relates to people. If that was all that mattered he would be perfect. But I still believe he lacks the organisational skills and insight into politics to maximise the UKIP appeal.

The point of it was made clear in your reponse, Richard.

What matters is the way people perceive Farage compared to Cameron.

Kippers want to perceive Farage as 'a man of the people' and are therefore prepared to believe without proper questioning any confirmatory statement he or others make about his upbringing and education. Just as those who oppose Cameron see him as "posh, privileged and arrogant" because it fits their prejudices.

If I had made claims relating to AGW which were as qualitative and as unrelated to evidence as those you have made about Cameron and Farage, you would have justifiably jumped on me.

And I don't think that Cameron has yet accused a former elected Prime Minister and President of a multinational union as having "the charisma of a damp rag and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk". As grand an example of minor public school snobbery as I have yet to encounter.

old_labour

It looks like the plan is do nothing and "wait for something to turn up" like an uptick in the economy or EdM to drowning a kitten on live TV.
The government will look like it is reacting to events rather than shaping them.

AndyJS

The point is Farage seems more like an ordinary person than Cameron or Osborne. The fact that he went to Dulwich is a bit of an irrelevance.

AveryLP

AndyJS said:

The point is Farage seems more like an ordinary person than Cameron or Osborne. The fact that he went to Dulwich is a bit of an irrelevance.

Just as the fact that Cameron went to Eton is a total irrelevance.

Except, of course, to tim and his followers.

Socrates

AndyJS said:

The point is Farage seems more like an ordinary person than Cameron or Osborne. The fact that he went to Dulwich is a bit of an irrelevance.

Right. It's not where you went to school, its that you seem to fit in with regular British culture rather than Davos man culture.

malcolmg

AveryLP said:

AndyJS said:

The point is Farage seems more like an ordinary person than Cameron or Osborne. The fact that he went to Dulwich is a bit of an irrelevance.

Just as the fact that Cameron went to Eton is a total irrelevance.

Except, of course, to tim and his followers.

More important is the fact that he is useless and surrounds himself with his mediocre chums.

Richard_Tyndall

AveryLP said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

FPT @Richard_Tyndall and @another_richard

Richard_Tyndall said:

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

Tim/Another Richard - But Farage himself went to Dulwich (even if his deputy, Paul Nuttall, went to a comp)

But Farage, or for that matter Blair or Boris, doesn't give the impression of looking down upon those who didn't.

Neither did the likes of Douglas-Home or Douglas Hurd. They might have appeared rather grand and somewhat out of touch but they never exuded the petulant arrogance that the Cameroons and their supporters do.

Its one thing being born into a more privileged position in life but people with real class don't think themselves better or need to think themselves better than others because of it.

But the Cameroons wallow in a "I'm superior to you and I want you to feel inferior" mentality. The arrogance and insecurity which the Cameroons suffer from REQUIRES everyone else to feel inferior.

That's the mentality which causes revolutions and that's what we're now seeing on the political right.

Indeed,

in a number of interviews Farage has said one of the reasons he enjoyed Dulwich so much is that it had a very large number of scholarship pupils which meant there was a much wider mix of social backgrounds compared to other public schools.

Nigel Farage is dissembling.

Scholarships to public schools are generally offered on merit alone and usually provide parents with remission of between 10% to 25% of annual fees.

More important to low income earning parents are means-tested bursaries which are not only won on examination results and which can provide up to 100% of fees to qualifying parents.

The Sutton Trust in a 2010 academic report estimated that the average amount of fees remitted by independent schools through both scholarships and bursaries was 7.8% of total fee revenue.

Bursaries require the school to have large capital endowments and are therefore tend to be more plentiful from the older foundations who have acquired income generating land and property portfolios over many centuries.

Eton College, for example, aims to provide financial assistance on fees for a third of its pupils (c. 325). Eton has the highest proportion of any public school of pupils receiving 100% of fees paid. It has also recently raised £25 million in charitable donations to create a New Foundation Scholarship fund targetted solely at former state school pupils.

Dulwich College, as an old foundation from 1619, will have more endowment funds than most schools founded in the 19th and 20th century, and it offers an above average package of both bursaries and of scholarships awarded on academic merit and for proficiency in Art, Music and Sport.

Dulwich's schemes, however, are nowhere near as generous or as wide in extent as those of Eton. For Farage to claim that he had a more down to earth education because he mixed with a greater proportion of scholarship pupils than David Cameron is simply bunkum.

There will of course be cultural differences between Dulwich and Eton, but these are more likely to derive from its more local catchment area (less than 10% of Dulwich pupils board); its metropolitan location and outlook; and its good but not table topping ranking and reputation (oh, the tyranny of small differences!).

Farage is as much a privileged Old Alleynian as Cameron is a privileged Old Etonian. If anyone has a claim to be a lucky man of the people, it is Boris, who owes the privilege of his education to the generosity of Eton's benefactors.

And the point of all that was what?

All Farage has said is that there were a lot of scholarship kids at his school. He made no comment beyond the fact that he liked that. Whatever the reason for more or less scholarships is immaterial. What matters is the way people perceive Farage compared to Cameron. Cameron talks down to people and comes over as posh, privileged and arrogant, Farage does not. If Eton had more scholarship kids than Dulwich, clearly Cameron saw them simply as a useful source of footstools and toast-racks.

That is your problem not mine.

Oh and as an aside as I have said before I still think Farage is the wrong person to lead UKIP. But that is not because of his personality or the way he relates to people. If that was all that mattered he would be perfect. But I still believe he lacks the organisational skills and insight into politics to maximise the UKIP appeal.

The point of it was made clear in your reponse, Richard.

What matters is the way people perceive Farage compared to Cameron.

Kippers want to perceive Farage as 'a man of the people' and are therefore prepared to believe without proper questioning any confirmatory statement he or others make about his upbringing and education. Just as those who oppose Cameron see him as "posh, privileged and arrogant" because it fits their prejudices.

If I had made claims relating to AGW which were as qualitative and as unrelated to evidence as those you have made about Cameron and Farage, you would have justifiably jumped on me.

And I don't think that Cameron has yet accused a former elected Prime Minister and President of a multinational union as having "the charisma of a damp rag and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk". As grand an example of minor public school snobbery as I have yet to encounter.

Not at all. The issue of AGW is based upon the objective interpretation of scientific data. The question of personality and how people are perceived is by its very nature utterly subjective.

What you cannot deny is that Farage is seen as having more in common with normal people than Cameron. Most people (well those at least who ever heard of it) saw Farage's attack on Van Rompuy as the deflating of an arrogant and autocractic jumped up nobody. Compared with Cameron's continued attacks on his own party members and supporters as well as on a significant proportion of the electorate, Farage's actions were very much those of someone in touch with the common man.

Of course you wouldn't agree because you are here to act as a Tory version of Tim.

Some of us are rather more liberated and honest in our opinions of politicians.

AveryLP

Socrates said:

AndyJS said:

The point is Farage seems more like an ordinary person than Cameron or Osborne. The fact that he went to Dulwich is a bit of an irrelevance.

Right. It's not where you went to school, its that you seem to fit in with regular British culture rather than Davos man culture.

Don't be absurd, Socrates.

Davos is a meeting place for Chief Executives of global corporations, political leaders and the attendant consultancy and advisory classes.

You go to the Davos conference once you have made it. It doesn't 'make you'.

In the unlikely event of Farage becoming Prime Minister or Chancellor of the Exchequer then we would see him gambolling across the Swiss Alps trilling "Climb Ev'ry Mountain" like the best of them.

AveryLP

@Richard_Tyndall

Some of us are rather more liberated and honest in our opinions of politicians.

Yeah, right.

Talking of subordinates as "toast-racks", the last time I heard a similar phrase used was in the 1980s during the Thatcherite Big Bang.in the City.

The actual phrase, "toast collectors", was used by analysts to refer to newly enrolled traders whose main function was to collect toasted sandwiches and coffees from the local cafés.

The analysts claim to superiority was solely by dint of their university education.

I wouldn't want to draw closer parallels with the illustrous career of Mr. Nigel Farage.

Socrates

A good, if tragic, column on recent child abuse scandals:

In a particularly warped twist, the pimp will teach his victim that her parents are racist towards Asians, which is why they disapprove of their relationship – absolutely nothing, of course, to do with him being a violent, controlling thug. Gang members have grown wise to the wimpy ways of Western society. They exploit the fact that police, newly trained in “cultural sensitivity”, are terrified of being accused of racism. So the pimps operate with impunity until, years later, the slave girls find the courage to testify in court against their masters.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10060570/Oxford-grooming-gang-We-will-regret-ignoring-Asian-thugs-who-target-white-girls.html

Richard_Tyndall

AveryLP said:

AndyJS said:

The point is Farage seems more like an ordinary person than Cameron or Osborne. The fact that he went to Dulwich is a bit of an irrelevance.

Just as the fact that Cameron went to Eton is a total irrelevance.

Except, of course, to tim and his followers.

And of course the 48% of people who saw Cameron as being the most out of touch of the leaders in the last Ipsos Mori poll. That was three times more than Miliband and nearly 5 times more than Clegg or Farage.

AveryLP

malcolmg said:

AveryLP said:

AndyJS said:

The point is Farage seems more like an ordinary person than Cameron or Osborne. The fact that he went to Dulwich is a bit of an irrelevance.

Just as the fact that Cameron went to Eton is a total irrelevance.

Except, of course, to tim and his followers.

More important is the fact that he is useless and surrounds himself with his mediocre chums.

Och, aye, Malcolm.

Richard_Tyndall

AveryLP said:

@Richard_Tyndall

Some of us are rather more liberated and honest in our opinions of politicians.

Yeah, right.

Talking of subordinates as "toast-racks", the last time I heard a similar phrase used was in the 1980s during the Thatcherite Big Bang.in the City.

The actual phrase, "toast collectors", was used by analysts to refer to newly enrolled traders whose main function was to collect toasted sandwiches and coffees from the local cafés.

The analysts claim to superiority was solely by dint of their university education.

I wouldn't want to draw closer parallels with the illustrous career of Mr. Nigel Farage.

Funny, I was taking it from Black Adder the Third.

But you are probably more in touch with the elitists than I am.

Richard_Tyndall

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

@Richard_Tyndall

Some of us are rather more liberated and honest in our opinions of politicians.

Yeah, right.

Talking of subordinates as "toast-racks", the last time I heard a similar phrase used was in the 1980s during the Thatcherite Big Bang.in the City.

The actual phrase, "toast collectors", was used by analysts to refer to newly enrolled traders whose main function was to collect toasted sandwiches and coffees from the local cafés.

The analysts claim to superiority was solely by dint of their university education.

I wouldn't want to draw closer parallels with the illustrous career of Mr. Nigel Farage.

Funny, I was taking it from Black Adder the Third.

But you are probably more in touch with the elitists than I am.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3jIE3b-bhY

Verulamius

The problem with masterful inactivity by government is what to do with your MPs to keep them out of trouble.

Keep them busy with something unimportant?

Socrates

For everything that's said about Daily Telegraph commenters, the response to this article are rather refreshing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10080341/Yurt-war-in-rural-France-as-British-families-find-the-good-life-turned-sour.html

stodge

Afternoon all

I'm afraid I can top David Kendrick and have to admit that I attended Dulwich and contemperanoeusly with Nigel Farage though my years were 1972-79 so Farage was three years below me and I'm sure he had an older brother but perhaps I'm mistaken. I have no particular memory of Nigel Farage I'm afraid.

I won a half scholarship through the entrance exam in the spring of 1972 which was then made up to a full scholarship through the "free place" scheme run by the London Borough of Bromley. I got a free travel pass for the journey to and from the College. I have no recollection of anyone ever asking who had free places and who paid fees. The biggest differentiation at that time was between the day boys and the boarders.

I am acutely aware of how fortunate I was to receive the education I did though it left me woefully unprepared for life.

AveryLP

Richard_Tyndall said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

@Richard_Tyndall

Some of us are rather more liberated and honest in our opinions of politicians.

Yeah, right.

Talking of subordinates as "toast-racks", the last time I heard a similar phrase used was in the 1980s during the Thatcherite Big Bang.in the City.

The actual phrase, "toast collectors", was used by analysts to refer to newly enrolled traders whose main function was to collect toasted sandwiches and coffees from the local cafés.

The analysts claim to superiority was solely by dint of their university education.

I wouldn't want to draw closer parallels with the illustrous career of Mr. Nigel Farage.

Funny, I was taking it from Black Adder the Third.

But you are probably more in touch with the elitists than I am.

[Youtube clip of Blackadder 3]

All penned by a former Head Boy of Harrow, Richard.

Funny old world.

old_labour

My reaction was that France is welcome to them-yurts, shiatsu, kids' silly names and all.

Socrates said:

For everything that's said about Daily Telegraph commenters, the response to this article are rather refreshing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10080341/Yurt-war-in-rural-France-as-British-families-find-the-good-life-turned-sour.html

Richard_Tyndall

AveryLP said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

@Richard_Tyndall

Some of us are rather more liberated and honest in our opinions of politicians.

Yeah, right.

Talking of subordinates as "toast-racks", the last time I heard a similar phrase used was in the 1980s during the Thatcherite Big Bang.in the City.

The actual phrase, "toast collectors", was used by analysts to refer to newly enrolled traders whose main function was to collect toasted sandwiches and coffees from the local cafés.

The analysts claim to superiority was solely by dint of their university education.

I wouldn't want to draw closer parallels with the illustrous career of Mr. Nigel Farage.

Funny, I was taking it from Black Adder the Third.

But you are probably more in touch with the elitists than I am.

All penned by a Head Boy of Harrow, Richard.

Funny old world.

Indeed but it seems that your comments about Dulwich and your attempted little character assassination of Farage have been well and truly scuppered.

I was going to suggest you spend more time trying to humanise your leader but to be honest I can see how that would be a completely thankless and futile task.

Better off just getting rid of him and getting in someone a bit more in touch.

AveryLP

Socrates said:

For everything that's said about Daily Telegraph commenters, the response to this article are rather refreshing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10080341/Yurt-war-in-rural-France-as-British-families-find-the-good-life-turned-sour.html

Peter Bateman, 44, an artist and antiques dealer from Nottingham, moved to the area eight years ago with his partner Janie Corbett, a Shiatsu practitioner, and their children Branwen, 14 and Tarn, 10.

No wonder the Lib Dem vote has collapsed.

NickPalmer

A problem with this is that politicians don't do much "governing" in the sense that David describes. For instance, anyone sensible is eyeing the approach of Universal Credit with some apprehension, but all Ministers can really do is request frequent reports from the pilot areas. They don't actually get into the operational stuff of checking that the computers are working and submitting test cases.

Given that, what is the government actually for? There came a time around 2009 when I couldn't have answered that question, nor can I remember much about our 2010 manifesto. We'd run out of ideas. But that was after 12-13 years in government. Have Dave and Nick really run out of ideas after 3? Isn't there anything they would really like to do with power while they've got it, regardless of the electoral popularity aspect?

HYUFD

Amusing story in the Sunday Times Diary, apparently Denise Van Outen went to Gore Vidal's place in Italy once at the invitation of a fellow TV presenter and after meeting him said 'it was so good to meet Vidal Sassoon'

MonikerDiCanio

“The purpose of government is to enable the people of a nation to live in safety and happiness. Government exists for the interests of the governed, not for the governors.”


― Thomas Jefferson

New Labour reversed Jefferson's equation.

old_labour

LOL

AveryLP said:

Socrates said:

For everything that's said about Daily Telegraph commenters, the response to this article are rather refreshing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10080341/Yurt-war-in-rural-France-as-British-families-find-the-good-life-turned-sour.html

Peter Bateman, 44, an artist and antiques dealer from Nottingham, moved to the area eight years ago with his partner Janie Corbett, a Shiatsu practitioner, and their children Branwen, 14 and Tarn, 10.

No wonder the Lib Dem vote has collapsed.

AveryLP

Finally. On Topic.

Two years to tax cuts.

Announced but not implemented.

You'll have to vote Tory to get them.

Meanwhile feet on toast-racks.

HYUFD

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

Neil

AveryLP said:

You'll have to vote Tory to get them.

And you'll have to earn more than 150k to benefit from them but, hey, no government is perfect.

dugarbandier

old_labour said:

LOL

AveryLP said:

Socrates said:

For everything that's said about Daily Telegraph commenters, the response to this article are rather refreshing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10080341/Yurt-war-in-rural-France-as-British-families-find-the-good-life-turned-sour.html

Peter Bateman, 44, an artist and antiques dealer from Nottingham, moved to the area eight years ago with his partner Janie Corbett, a Shiatsu practitioner, and their children Branwen, 14 and Tarn, 10.

No wonder the Lib Dem vote has collapsed.

two shiatsu practitioners in a community of 350 people!

another_richard

AveryLP said:

Finally. On Topic.

Two years to tax cuts.

Announced but not implemented.

You'll have to vote Tory to get them.

Meanwhile feet on toast-racks.

How long until we get a monthly trade surplus ?

And do you really expect people to believe in future 'tax cuts' if they vote the right way ?

You're on the same coin as Ed Balls, merely the other side.

AveryLP

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

AveryLP

another_richard said:

AveryLP said:

Finally. On Topic.

Two years to tax cuts.

Announced but not implemented.

You'll have to vote Tory to get them.

Meanwhile feet on toast-racks.

How long until we get a monthly trade surplus ?

And do you really expect people to believe in future 'tax cuts' if they vote the right way ?

You're on the same coin as Ed Balls, merely the other side.

'Demand side stimulus', ar.

Please keep up.

rcs1000

@another_Richard

From a purely technical perspective, if you have your own currency, and your country becomes a "safe haven" and capital flows into it, it becomes very hard to run a trade surplus.

AveryLP

Neil said:

AveryLP said:

You'll have to vote Tory to get them.

And you'll have to earn more than 150k to benefit from them but, hey, no government is perfect.

Now, now, Neil.

The Tories will also pledge to redevelop the Elephant and Castle. A new Waitrose complex will replace the Ministry of Sound.

Just imagine the capital gains on local residential property.

Socrates

Accotrding to a new report, New Zealand is the freest country in the world. The UK comes 18th, behind Chile.

Page 63:
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/ch3-an-index-of-freedom-in-the-world.pdf

HYUFD

AveryLP - Yes, it was an interesting interview with Sked

AveryLP

HYUFD said:

AveryLP - Yes, it was an interesting interview with Sked

It will certainly have stodge and David Kendrick checking their apostrophes before posting.

Neil

@Socrates

And Ireland, a country where a woman who subsequently died as a result was told she cannot have an abortion because "this is a Catholic country", came 6th.

Stark_Dawning

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Damning stuff from Sked. Most damaging is that Farage comes across as a louche character and an illiterate drunk. At least Dave made the best of the education his parents bought him. Farage sounds like a skiver who just ambled off to make a mint in the City through the old-boy network.

another_richard

AveryLP said:

another_richard said:

AveryLP said:

Finally. On Topic.

Two years to tax cuts.

Announced but not implemented.

You'll have to vote Tory to get them.

Meanwhile feet on toast-racks.

How long until we get a monthly trade surplus ?

And do you really expect people to believe in future 'tax cuts' if they vote the right way ?

You're on the same coin as Ed Balls, merely the other side.

Demand side stimulus, ar.

Please keep up.

Keep up with what ?

What's the effective difference between Osborne's demand side stimulus and that of Ed Balls ?

In practical terms nothing, both involve keeping the voters happy by the government backing continuing debt funded consumerism.

All you're reduced to are these faux ironic comments when you can't give a proper answer to a proper question.

Lets face it you're never going to give a date for a monthly trade surplus because you know it isn't going to happen by May 2015.

Which means the whole economic rebalancing strategy is now admitted as a failure.

Do you ever feel embarrassed Avery to be using your time and talent as a propagandising pimp while the fundamentals continue to rot away ?

Perhaps you think its all a jolly jape or maybe your concscience is clear because your efforts are so obviously counter-productive ?

RodCrosby

I asked a few threads back if there was a price available on the Tories winning the Popular Vote in 2015.

Shadsy, where are you?

AveryLP

another_richard said:

AveryLP said:

another_richard said:

AveryLP said:

Finally. On Topic.

Two years to tax cuts.

Announced but not implemented.

You'll have to vote Tory to get them.

Meanwhile feet on toast-racks.

How long until we get a monthly trade surplus ?

And do you really expect people to believe in future 'tax cuts' if they vote the right way ?

You're on the same coin as Ed Balls, merely the other side.

Demand side stimulus, ar.

Please keep up.

Keep up with what ?

What's the effective difference between Osborne's demand side stimulus and that of Ed Balls ?

In practical terms nothing, both involve keeping the voters happy by the government backing continuing debt funded consumerism.

All you're reduced to are these faux ironic comments when you can't give a proper answer to a proper question.

Lets face it you're never going to give a date for a monthly trade surplus because you know it isn't going to happen by May 2015.

Which means the whole economic rebalancing strategy is now admitted as a failure.

Do you ever feel embarrassed Avery to be using your time and talent as a propagandising pimp while the fundamentals continue to rot away ?

Perhaps you think its all a jolly jape or maybe your concscience is clear because your efforts are so obviously counter-productive ?

You suffer from double impatience, ar.

You are not going to hurry me into a prediction on the next (ex petro) trade surplus.

And you are refusing to acknowledge that gradualism is an inevitable consequence of turnaround.

But all will be revealed in due course... to those of virtue and patience.

kle4

Thread title reminds me of this more optimistic opinion in the giddy days of 2010:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100069590/david-cameron’s-masterly-inaction-is-putting-us-back-on-course/

NickPalmer

Front-runners in Sherwood:
http://www.lachlanmorrison.org.uk/
http://www.leoniemathers.co.uk/
http://driancampbellforsherwood.org.uk/

Too close to call, I hear, though nobody really knows.

rcs1000

@another_Richard,

While UKIP's 25% tax rate, and increases to pensions will balance the budget

stodge

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

AveryLP - Yes, it was an interesting interview with Sked

It will certainly have stodge and David Kendrick checking their apostrophes before posting.

I would like to think everyone reads their post before submission though the evidence occasionally suggests otherwise.

Richard_Tyndall

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP in a huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader.

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

OldKingCole

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP ina huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader. A

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

As far as "former members of the BNP" are concerned, isn't one allowed to see the error of one's former ways? I thought repentance and turning from one's former errors was a cause for celebration in a Christian society!

Secondly I know a few people who know Farage the man. They don't seem to hold him in high, or even moderate, regard.

kle4

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22673156

Labour and the Conservatives could unite to push through the controversial communications bill despite Lib Dem objections, a former Tory leader says.

The bill, allowing the monitoring of all UK citizens' internet use, was dropped after a split in the coalition.

But Michael Howard said David Cameron had "to act in the national interest" following the Woolwich murder.

Shouldn't be surprised Labour and the Tories would be as one on such issues, despite their pretense of being different from one another.

Richard_Tyndall

OldKingCole said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP ina huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader. A

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

As far as "former members of the BNP" are concerned, isn't one allowed to see the error of one's former ways? I thought repentance and turning from one's former errors was a cause for celebration in a Christian society!

Secondly I know a few people who Farage the man. They don't seem to hold him in high, or even moderate, regard.

Farage has a serious issue with managing people. A lot of those people I really respect such as Richard North found it impossible to work with him. It is one of the reasons I thought it was a retrograde step for him to return to the leadership. I personally wanted Tim Congdon.

As far as the BNP membership is concerned I am rather of the opinion that anyone who has got to the point of joining a party like the BNP must know enough about them and agree with them enough that they are not easily going to change their views.So I am comfortable with them not being allowed to join UKIP.

AveryLP

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP in a huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader.

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

Paras. 1-3 uncontended and interesting. I can see how the split on the EU parliament developed. A true leader always needs to put power before principle.

But the BNP exclusions argument simply won't do, Richard. It is not the membership admission policy of the party that makes it racist, it is the priority given in campaigning to the socio-economic threats of of EU immigration. Simply excluding former BNP members does not justify the scaremongering on Bulgarian and Romanians nor the substitution of fear for reason in arguments on policy. Such activity is the pursuit of power without principle.

I agree UKIP could not have grown while maintaining the intellectual purity of Prof. Sked but it need not dance with the devil in its abandonment.

You have always appeared far more Hannanite to me than Faragist. And that is a compliment.

rcs1000

Re Farage:

I like Farage, and - frankly - he seems by far the most human of the main party leaders. I realise his tone his not for everyone, but I genuinely admire him for his willingness to speak up for his beliefs.

That said, he seems a little bit of a Kenneth Clarke character, who is a little too fond of his 'man in the pub' image, and there has to be a question as to whether he is the best person to take UKIP from being a one man band to a party of government.

OldKingCole

Richard_Tyndall said:

OldKingCole said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP ina huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader. A

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

As far as "former members of the BNP" are concerned, isn't one allowed to see the error of one's former ways? I thought repentance and turning from one's former errors was a cause for celebration in a Christian society!

Secondly I know a few people who Farage the man. They don't seem to hold him in high, or even moderate, regard.

Farage has a serious issue with managing people. A lot of those people I really respect such as Richard North found it impossible to work with him. It is one of the reasons I thought it was a retrograde step for him to return to the leadership. I personally wanted Tim Congdon.

As far as the BNP membership is concerned I am rather of the opinion that anyone who has got to the point of joining a party like the BNP must know enough about them and agree with them enough that they are not easily going to change their views.So I am comfortable with them not being allowed to join UKIP.

Well, I've known one or two people who've joined the BNP then realised what they've got associated with and "made their excuses and left". To resurrect a famous phrase!

Is there a blanket ban? Does any time as a member at all disqualify. Maybe some of UKIP's policies are too close to BNP, whereas the Big two-and-a-half are clearer on their policies.

Richard_Tyndall

AveryLP said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP in a huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader.

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

Paras. 1-3 uncontended and interesting. I can see how the split on the EU parliament developed. A true leader always needs to put power before principle.

But the BNP exclusions argument simply won't do, Richard. It is not the membership admission policy of the party that makes it racist, it is the priority given in campaigning to the social threats of of EU immigration. Simply excluding former BNP members does not justify the scaremongering on Bulgarian and Romanians nor the substitution of fear for reason in arguments on policy. Such activity is the pursuit of power without principle.

I agree UKIP could not have grown while maintaining the intellectual purity of Prof. Sked but it need not dance with devil in its abandonment.

You always appear far more Hannanite to me than Faragist. And that is a compliment.

I think the problem with the whole issue of immigration from new accession states is one of recent history. The language being used by the present government is very similar to that used by the Labour government a decade ago when they first denied the numbers who would move to the UK, then lied about the numbers that had and then finally only very recently admitted they had lied - with some quite happy with what they had done and others - those who still want to further their political careers attempting some sort of mea culpa.

So UKIP are being factually correct when they talk of the numbers who will have the right to come here. They are clearly not right if they claim they will all turn up but there is a natural tendency to disbelieve the officials given that they were so wrong (perhaps purposefully) the last time around,. That is certainly not racist. It is a matter of numbers not ethnicity.

MikeK

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP in a huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader.

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

Just back from a great afternoon in Kew Gardens.

As far as Mr Avery is concerned, trying to present Prof. Skeds views as relevant today is completely barmy by first by you and then then the Telegraph. Trouble is guys like Avery are getting a little bit worried by the sudden burst of speed that UKIP has put on in the last few months. They do see it as a threat to their beloved Tories: a party in decay, if there ever was one.

You are spot on Richard, Sked has been behaving for years like a slob who's lost his lollipop.
Actually Farage is a very pleasant bloke to meet, so I have heard from friends, and I will have more to tell in two weeks when I will see him at an event and try to meet him face to face.

Richard_Tyndall

OldKingCole said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OldKingCole said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP ina huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader. A

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

As far as "former members of the BNP" are concerned, isn't one allowed to see the error of one's former ways? I thought repentance and turning from one's former errors was a cause for celebration in a Christian society!

Secondly I know a few people who Farage the man. They don't seem to hold him in high, or even moderate, regard.

Farage has a serious issue with managing people. A lot of those people I really respect such as Richard North found it impossible to work with him. It is one of the reasons I thought it was a retrograde step for him to return to the leadership. I personally wanted Tim Congdon.

As far as the BNP membership is concerned I am rather of the opinion that anyone who has got to the point of joining a party like the BNP must know enough about them and agree with them enough that they are not easily going to change their views.So I am comfortable with them not being allowed to join UKIP.

Well, I've known one or two people who've joined the BNP then realised what they've got associated with and "made their excuses and left". To resurrect a famous phrase!

Is there a blanket ban? Does any time as a member at all disqualify. Maybe some of UKIP's policies are too close to BNP, whereas the Big two-and-a-half are clearer on their policies.

If the leadership of the big two and a half are clear, they clearly forgot to tell some of their councillors and supporters.

Richard_Tyndall

rcs1000 said:

Re Farage:

I like Farage, and - frankly - he seems by far the most human of the main party leaders. I realise his tone his not for everyone, but I genuinely admire him for his willingness to speak up for his beliefs.

That said, he seems a little bit of a Kenneth Clarke character, who is a little too fond of his 'man in the pub' image, and there has to be a question as to whether he is the best person to take UKIP from being a one man band to a party of government.

Having met both Clarke and Farage a couple of times it is one of my greatest regrets that Clarke is such a Europhile and that Farage is so poor at dealing with the 'threat' of colleagues. In both cases it means they are utterly unsuited for high office.

perdix

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP in a huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader.

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

Paras. 1-3 uncontended and interesting. I can see how the split on the EU parliament developed. A true leader always needs to put power before principle.

But the BNP exclusions argument simply won't do, Richard. It is not the membership admission policy of the party that makes it racist, it is the priority given in campaigning to the social threats of of EU immigration. Simply excluding former BNP members does not justify the scaremongering on Bulgarian and Romanians nor the substitution of fear for reason in arguments on policy. Such activity is the pursuit of power without principle.

I agree UKIP could not have grown while maintaining the intellectual purity of Prof. Sked but it need not dance with devil in its abandonment.

You always appear far more Hannanite to me than Faragist. And that is a compliment.

I think the problem with the whole issue of immigration from new accession states is one of recent history. The language being used by the present government is very similar to that used by the Labour government a decade ago when they first denied the numbers who would move to the UK, then lied about the numbers that had and then finally only very recently admitted they had lied - with some quite happy with what they had done and others - those who still want to further their political careers attempting some sort of mea culpa.

So UKIP are being factually correct when they talk of the numbers who will have the right to come here. They are clearly not right if they claim they will all turn up but there is a natural tendency to disbelieve the officials given that they were so wrong (perhaps purposefully) the last time around,. That is certainly not racist. It is a matter of numbers not ethnicity.

Proof that the current government lied about EU migration?

perdix

rcs1000 said:

@another_Richard,

While UKIP's 25% tax rate, and increases to pensions will balance the budget

The kippers have abandoned the 25% tax rate idea.

Richard_Tyndall

perdix said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP in a huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader.

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

Paras. 1-3 uncontended and interesting. I can see how the split on the EU parliament developed. A true leader always needs to put power before principle.

But the BNP exclusions argument simply won't do, Richard. It is not the membership admission policy of the party that makes it racist, it is the priority given in campaigning to the social threats of of EU immigration. Simply excluding former BNP members does not justify the scaremongering on Bulgarian and Romanians nor the substitution of fear for reason in arguments on policy. Such activity is the pursuit of power without principle.

I agree UKIP could not have grown while maintaining the intellectual purity of Prof. Sked but it need not dance with devil in its abandonment.

You always appear far more Hannanite to me than Faragist. And that is a compliment.

I think the problem with the whole issue of immigration from new accession states is one of recent history. The language being used by the present government is very similar to that used by the Labour government a decade ago when they first denied the numbers who would move to the UK, then lied about the numbers that had and then finally only very recently admitted they had lied - with some quite happy with what they had done and others - those who still want to further their political careers attempting some sort of mea culpa.

So UKIP are being factually correct when they talk of the numbers who will have the right to come here. They are clearly not right if they claim they will all turn up but there is a natural tendency to disbelieve the officials given that they were so wrong (perhaps purposefully) the last time around,. That is certainly not racist. It is a matter of numbers not ethnicity.

Proof that the current government lied about EU migration?

None. It was a generalisation about trust in government when it comes to the issue of EU immigration. For me at least there is very little difference between the the two main parties on the issue. I certainly don't trust Cameron on this issue since he is effectively powerless and therefore all he can do is pretend to be doing something or play down the likely impact - exactly as Labour did when they were in power.

Richard_Tyndall

Thought some of you might like this by the way.

Work and family safe and not at all what you would expect from the URL.

http://www.edl.me/

Morris_Dancer

Good evening, everyone.

Just finished watching (mostly, I did miss some bits) the F1 highlights. Weird that Hamilton backed off so much from Rosberg during the safety car pit stops. Probably cost himself a podium.

Morris_Dancer

F1: just saw this: Raikkonen reckons Perez needs to be punched in the face.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22675026

MrJones

Verulamius said:

The problem with masterful inactivity by government is what to do with your MPs to keep them out of trouble.

Keep them busy with something unimportant?

Get them to build a pyramid.

rcs1000

Richard_Tyndall said:

perdix said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP in a huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader.

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

Paras. 1-3 uncontended and interesting. I can see how the split on the EU parliament developed. A true leader always needs to put power before principle.

But the BNP exclusions argument simply won't do, Richard. It is not the membership admission policy of the party that makes it racist, it is the priority given in campaigning to the social threats of of EU immigration. Simply excluding former BNP members does not justify the scaremongering on Bulgarian and Romanians nor the substitution of fear for reason in arguments on policy. Such activity is the pursuit of power without principle.

I agree UKIP could not have grown while maintaining the intellectual purity of Prof. Sked but it need not dance with devil in its abandonment.

You always appear far more Hannanite to me than Faragist. And that is a compliment.

I think the problem with the whole issue of immigration from new accession states is one of recent history. The language being used by the present government is very similar to that used by the Labour government a decade ago when they first denied the numbers who would move to the UK, then lied about the numbers that had and then finally only very recently admitted they had lied - with some quite happy with what they had done and others - those who still want to further their political careers attempting some sort of mea culpa.

So UKIP are being factually correct when they talk of the numbers who will have the right to come here. They are clearly not right if they claim they will all turn up but there is a natural tendency to disbelieve the officials given that they were so wrong (perhaps purposefully) the last time around,. That is certainly not racist. It is a matter of numbers not ethnicity.

Proof that the current government lied about EU migration?

None. It was a generalisation about trust in government when it comes to the issue of EU immigration. For me at least there is very little difference between the the two main parties on the issue. I certainly don't trust Cameron on this issue since he is effectively powerless and therefore all he can do is pretend to be doing something or play down the likely impact - exactly as Labour did when they were in power.

Although it is worth noting that most migrants are economically rational, and will head to the place in Europe where they will see the biggest pick-up in incomes and the lowest risk of unemployment. Germany, with its low rents, low unemployment and high wages, looks a lot more attractive than the UK right now.

rcs1000

MrJones said:

Verulamius said:

The problem with masterful inactivity by government is what to do with your MPs to keep them out of trouble.

Keep them busy with something unimportant?

Get them to build a pyramid.

Use your cross wisely: crucify a politician

nigel4england

rcs1000 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

perdix said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP in a huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader.

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

Paras. 1-3 uncontended and interesting. I can see how the split on the EU parliament developed. A true leader always needs to put power before principle.

But the BNP exclusions argument simply won't do, Richard. It is not the membership admission policy of the party that makes it racist, it is the priority given in campaigning to the social threats of of EU immigration. Simply excluding former BNP members does not justify the scaremongering on Bulgarian and Romanians nor the substitution of fear for reason in arguments on policy. Such activity is the pursuit of power without principle.

I agree UKIP could not have grown while maintaining the intellectual purity of Prof. Sked but it need not dance with devil in its abandonment.

You always appear far more Hannanite to me than Faragist. And that is a compliment.

I think the problem with the whole issue of immigration from new accession states is one of recent history. The language being used by the present government is very similar to that used by the Labour government a decade ago when they first denied the numbers who would move to the UK, then lied about the numbers that had and then finally only very recently admitted they had lied - with some quite happy with what they had done and others - those who still want to further their political careers attempting some sort of mea culpa.

So UKIP are being factually correct when they talk of the numbers who will have the right to come here. They are clearly not right if they claim they will all turn up but there is a natural tendency to disbelieve the officials given that they were so wrong (perhaps purposefully) the last time around,. That is certainly not racist. It is a matter of numbers not ethnicity.

Proof that the current government lied about EU migration?

None. It was a generalisation about trust in government when it comes to the issue of EU immigration. For me at least there is very little difference between the the two main parties on the issue. I certainly don't trust Cameron on this issue since he is effectively powerless and therefore all he can do is pretend to be doing something or play down the likely impact - exactly as Labour did when they were in power.

Although it is worth noting that most migrants are economically rational, and will head to the place in Europe where they will see the biggest pick-up in incomes and the lowest risk of unemployment. Germany, with its low rents, low unemployment and high wages, looks a lot more attractive than the UK right now.

That depends if they want to work or not. Have you seen the photos of Roma gypsies sleeping on Park Lane?

Sean_F

On their website, the BNP have urged members and supporters to infiltrate UKIP. It is thus sensible for UKIP to have a blanket ban.

Re Farage, the party certainly has to move to a situation where senior figures can disagree with the Leader.

nigel4england

http://www.millwall.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/get-attachment.asp?attachmentid=14318

MikeK

Avril K ‏@FreebornTrukip

pic.twitter.com/tIXDSfi6N1

Look who's coming to dinner!

OldKingCole

Richard_Tyndall said:

OldKingCole said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OldKingCole said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP ina huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader. A

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

As far as "former members of the BNP" are concerned, isn't one allowed to see the error of one's former ways? I thought repentance and turning from one's former errors was a cause for celebration in a Christian society!

Secondly I know a few people who Farage the man. They don't seem to hold him in high, or even moderate, regard.

Farage has a serious issue with managing people. A lot of those people I really respect such as Richard North found it impossible to work with him. It is one of the reasons I thought it was a retrograde step for him to return to the leadership. I personally wanted Tim Congdon.

As far as the BNP membership is concerned I am rather of the opinion that anyone who has got to the point of joining a party like the BNP must know enough about them and agree with them enough that they are not easily going to change their views.So I am comfortable with them not being allowed to join UKIP.

Well, I've known one or two people who've joined the BNP then realised what they've got associated with and "made their excuses and left". To resurrect a famous phrase!

Is there a blanket ban? Does any time as a member at all disqualify. Maybe some of UKIP's policies are too close to BNP, whereas the Big two-and-a-half are clearer on their policies.

If the leadership of the big two and a half are clear, they clearly forgot to tell some of their councillors and supporters.

I didn't write "clear", I wrote "clearer".

RodCrosby

some bad news for Labour in this chart...
http://www.titanictown.plus.com/locals.png

Their average lead in the locals since 2010 is just 3%... (Rallings & Thrasher National Equivalent Voteshares)

Sean_F

Richard T, what, in your view. Is the purpose of UKIP? To get Britain out of the EU and disband, or to become the main centre right party? Given the working class nature of UKIP support, would you expect the party to move slightly left on economic issues? Do you think you can win?

MrJones

Sean_F said:

Richard T, what, in your view. Is the purpose of UKIP? To get Britain out of the EU and disband, or to become the main centre right party? Given the working class nature of UKIP support, would you expect the party to move slightly left on economic issues? Do you think you can win?

Butting in, whatever their personal preference might be i think their maximum level of support would come from being (or being perceived to be) an anti-globalist and anti-PC version of the conservative party taking around 2/3 off the Tory vote and a 1/3 each off Lab/Lib.

MikeK

Sean_F said:

Richard T, what, in your view. Is the purpose of UKIP? To get Britain out of the EU and disband, or to become the main centre right party? Given the working class nature of UKIP support, would you expect the party to move slightly left on economic issues? Do you think you can win?

I can answer that. The purpose of UKIP is to replace a decaying Tory party, Leave the EU and govern for the benefit of the British nation.

Charles

tim said:

On Topic.
Had the govt never convened, except for Libya, then the country, the Tory Party and the Lib Dems would be in a better place, the deficit would be lower,growth higher, welfare spending lower and we'd have avoided a mad NHS reorganisation,and UKIP wouldn't have surged.
So doing nothing at all is the best policy

It's too nice an evening to get into an argument with you.

But it would be nice if you would provide evidence that stacks up for your claims. (I'll give you the ones on the Tory Party, the Lib Dems and UKIP).

AveryLP

MikeK said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AveryLP said:

HYUFD said:

UKIP's founder Alan Sked reveals he tried to have Farage expelled from the party and would consider joining a Euroscepic party of the left thttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10080835/Ukips-founder-says-the-party-has-gone-completely-fruitcake.html

The great UKIP split!

Prof Sked said it was not uncommon for the commodities broker to turn up at the party’s national executive evening meetings in a “relaxed” mood after a long day working — and drinking — in the Square Mile.

The academic also said that he received letters complaining about the spelling and grammar used in Mr Farage’s election literature.

“There seemed to be a bit of problem distinguishing its from it’s,” Prof Sked recalled, adding that Mr Farage did admit that writing was not his area of expertise.

“It was not always easy to portray us as a party that took education very seriously in such circumstances.” Mr Farage attended Dulwich College, the leading public school, in south London.

I feel most sorry for Richard Tyndall.

Prof. Sked: “My great regret is that the party I founded has been captured by the radical Right and has gone all anti-intellectual. It’s gone completely fruitcake.” And his view that the party has become “anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual and racist”.

There is enough intellectual angst in there for a new Hamlet to be penned with RT as the protagonist.

Why would you feel sorry for me? I have often stated I am no great fan of Farage as leader.

That said Sked's attacks have been continuous for the last decade or more. He has taken his lead from Ted Heath and has been involved one of the longest sulks in political history. He left UKIP in a huff because he disagreed with them standing for the European Parliament. He thought they should only stand at Westminster. A proposal which everyone knew was the one sure way to make sure they never gained any influence at all.

Sked has never reconciled himself with the fact that the party he helped to found has moved on without him and been far more successful than it ever would have been had he still been leader.

And of course UKIP has the pefect answer to the accusations of racism in that it is the only party that prohibits former members of the BNP joining them and kicks them out if they are uncovered. The day the Tories have a similar policy they will be in a a position to criticise but not before.

... Trouble is guys like Avery are getting a little bit worried by the sudden burst of speed that UKIP has put on in the last few months. They do see it as a threat to their beloved Tories: a party in decay, if there ever was one. ...

I am not worried by the sudden rise of UKIP, 'Mr. Mike'.

I see it as an inevitable consequence of the current state of the UK and EU economies and as a natural reaction by the electorate to the pain of undergoing treatment by relative austerity.

And sudden rapid rates of growth are often followed by equally sudden falls.

UKIP' growth is also a consequence of government by coalition. Not so much a coalition of parties, but more a coalition of public interests.

Every Prime Minister governs a country before leading a party and decisions taken in the interests of the country often conflict with the perceived interests of party. The legalisation of same sex marriage is a outstanding example. But so too was the decision to lower top rates of income tax, which though welcomed by the party caused it greater external harm.

But so too are all the less visible decisions to balance the interests of a broad population when undertaking fiscal and government spending reform. Many on the right would like to see an abandonment of foreign aid; the ending of ring-fenced spending protection; more rapid stimulus for manufacturing output; tighter controls on immigration; faster resolution of the EU relationship; deeper and faster cuts; more emphasis on productivity than employment etc etc,

But successful governments need to act in the interests of the whole nation. Even if a government's values are clear, policy shifts must be demonstrably successful before weight and momentum can be applied.

Thatcher maintained a more combative and divisive manner than Cameron, but even she did not attempt radical reform in a single term. The restructuring of state industry, privatisation, union reform and council house sales were all contentious policies which needed to be proved to an electorate before being rolled out.

Cameron's approach is far more managerial and consensus driven than Thatcher's. I accept there is less ideological divide today - "we are all Thatcherites today" - but Cameron may well achieve a more lasting and less hard edged and divisive recovery in the economy than Thatcher ever managed.

Which all rather brings me to the refutation of your claim of my love for the Tories, a party for which I have consistently voted but of which I have never been a member. My love is not for party, Mike, it is for country. Yes, my political orientation and values are far closer to those of the Conservative Party than of the alternatives, but that doesn't lead me to support the government unreservedly.

Economically I am far further to the right than Cameron and Osborne but I accept that the pace of change has to be moderated by the opinions and interests of the majority. If the country is to move to the right it must do so by earning its licence not by imposing its will: it must deliver demonstrable success through gradual change first.

And it is the failure of the right, as represented by UKIP, to accommodate or even recognise the existence of contrary views which alienates me most. Building a political party on minority anger and alienation is both dangerous and ultimately self-defeating.

HYUFD

Funeral for last Serbian King
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22671634

surbiton

RodCrosby said:

some bad news for Labour in this chart...
http://www.titanictown.plus.com/locals.png

Their average lead in the locals since 2010 is just 3%... (Rallings & Thrasher National Equivalent Voteshares)

OK Rsquare= 0.95. So, what are ypou trying to say ?

AveryLP

HYUFD said:

Funeral for last Serbian King
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22671634

Interesting. I flew on the same plane to Belgrade on which 'Crown Prince' Alexander first returned to Serbia in 2001.

I expected far more pomp and ceremony but there was more kerfuffle at departure than arrival.

I would not be surprised to see a constitutional monarchy revived in the minor Orthodox states Maybe a first step should be a Catholic prompt from the adopting nation of Cyril and Methodius: the election of a Schwarzenberg to the Presidency of the Czech Republic.

surbiton

kle4 said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22673156

Labour and the Conservatives could unite to push through the controversial communications bill despite Lib Dem objections, a former Tory leader says.

The bill, allowing the monitoring of all UK citizens' internet use, was dropped after a split in the coalition.

But Michael Howard said David Cameron had "to act in the national interest" following the Woolwich murder.

Shouldn't be surprised Labour and the Tories would be as one on such issues, despite their pretense of being different from one another.

Would be ironic if the Tory party had to eat humble pie on this one.

TheScreamingEagles

Can I give a big thanks to Another Richard for making me genuinely laugh out loud on the previous thread.

Posh? me?

I'm from Sheffield, we don't do posh round 'ere lad.

I don't disdain UKIP, I pity them, a party committed to civil liberties, such as allowing people to smoke in public, but won't allow that same smoker marry the person they love, because they are of the same gender.

If they think winning the votes on the back of denying liberties to gays is the way to go, then so be it.

Don't expect my vote or support in the future.

If there's any disdain, it's from UKIPers towards the Tory party.

The way some Kippers act, you'd have thought they'd won a majority of the votes in the locals, rather finish third behind Ed and Dave.

(PS I was called a deluded Lib Dem elsewhere on the internet yesterday, should I be worried?)

another_richard

AveryLP said:

another_richard said:

AveryLP said:

another_richard said:

AveryLP said:

Finally. On Topic.

Two years to tax cuts.

Announced but not implemented.

You'll have to vote Tory to get them.

Meanwhile feet on toast-racks.

How long until we get a monthly trade surplus ?

And do you really expect people to believe in future 'tax cuts' if they vote the right way ?

You're on the same coin as Ed Balls, merely the other side.

Demand side stimulus, ar.

Please keep up.

Keep up with what ?

What's the effective difference between Osborne's demand side stimulus and that of Ed Balls ?

In practical terms nothing, both involve keeping the voters happy by the government backing continuing debt funded consumerism.

All you're reduced to are these faux ironic comments when you can't give a proper answer to a proper question.

Lets face it you're never going to give a date for a monthly trade surplus because you know it isn't going to happen by May 2015.

Which means the whole economic rebalancing strategy is now admitted as a failure.

Do you ever feel embarrassed Avery to be using your time and talent as a propagandising pimp while the fundamentals continue to rot away ?

Perhaps you think its all a jolly jape or maybe your concscience is clear because your efforts are so obviously counter-productive ?

You suffer from double impatience, ar.

You are not going to hurry me into a prediction on the next (ex petro) trade surplus.

And you are refusing to acknowledge that gradualism is an inevitable consequence of turnaround.

But all will be revealed in due course... to those of virtue and patience.

What you know though is that the trade deficit has been 'gradually' increasing as has the national debt (though not so gradually in that case).

Meanwhile productivity is gradually decreasing.

I look forward to your prediction of when we can expect a single month's trade surplus.

My prediction of when you make this prediction is 10 minutes after that month's surplus has been announced.

slade

I have spent the day at Headingly - the first for more than 50 years! Oh for the days of Hutton and Lowson opening the batting for Yorkshire or Trueman and Appleyard opening the bowling. But what surprised me the most were the number of women spectators and the amount of alcohol consumed. Is there any other sport where such things happen?

Charles

TheScreamingEagles said:

(PS I was called a deluded Lib Dem elsewhere on the internet yesterday, should I be worried?)

Isn't that a tautology?

another_richard

rcs1000 said:

@another_Richard,

While UKIP's 25% tax rate, and increases to pensions will balance the budget

I have no expectation that UKIP could run a coherant government or solve Britain's fundamental problems.

But at least UKIP have provoked some debate.

Without that all we'd have are establishment mouthpieces with their 'sharing the proceeds of growth' and ever rising house prices policies.

TheScreamingEagles

slade said:

I have spent the day at Headingly - the first for more than 50 years! Oh for the days of Hutton and Lowson opening the batting for Yorkshire or Trueman and Appleyard opening the bowling. But what surprised me the most were the number of women spectators and the amount of alcohol consumed. Is there any other sport where such things happen?

I've been at Headingley the last two days.

Rugby union matches, at least on the international matches I've been to have women and booze.

But cricket fans have the best fancy dress.

TheScreamingEagles

Charles said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

(PS I was called a deluded Lib Dem elsewhere on the internet yesterday, should I be worried?)

Isn't that a tautology?

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.