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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ipsos Mori issues index for September is out

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  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The UKIP conference leader's speech is reaching its climax http://t.co/BbNPKVtR0x
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Certainly, the Baltic States have to be the line in the sand, otherwise, we might just as well wind NATO up.

    WRT crime rates, it seems to be the case that *violent* crime peaked c.2004. I imagine that violent crime generates more concern than crime generally.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    To all the people forecasting Carswell wouldn't fit in at ukip...

    Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver)
    26/09/2014 14:34
    Douglas Carswell: Doesn't it feel great to be in UKIP? #UKIPConf14

    Sam we're not saying that Douglas won't fit in, just that it's going to be a tight squeeze with Nigel in there also.

    Carswell for leader!
    No not you... Although I should nt think he wants to be the boss

    A couple of people though Carswell was a pro immigration kinda guy who would hate the ruffians at ukip...

    I had to link to about a dozen anti immigration quotes from Carswell before they shut up
    Hmm not so sure (about his leadership intentions).

    He left the Cons because they weren't close enough to his views and now he is the big fish with the opportunity to shape UKIP's strategy.

    What better way to shape a party's strategy than to be leader of it.

    Plus he is a politician. He didn't enter politics not to take the opportunities when they present themselves.
    Ok if you say so
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The West is caught saying 'Something must be done', but without the will to actually do anything meaningful

    The West's strategy is surely to keep ISIS pinned down whilst the locals acquire the bottle and the wherewithal to take up the slack on the ground.

    It's difficult to see what the alternative is.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Mr. Llama, air cover will be very helpful to those forces on the ground. It helped turf the mad bastards out of a critical dam, and helped arrest their advance towards Kurdish areas.

    On the diplomatic front, as Rory Someone (Stewart?) said on QT last night, we should be trying our best to cement a strong regional alliance against ISIS.

    If we do nothing, ISIS could well overrun Syria and Iraq. And then Jordan, and Lebanon would be vulnerable. At what point would we take action?

    Mr. D., I have no objection in principle to going to war. I have a massive objection to going to war without the faintest idea of how to win it, or even what a win would look like. All that does is cause huge expenditure of treasure and lives for no good purpose.

  • Isam

    As usual you lose the argument and resort to personal insults.

    Happens every time.
  • Isam yes.

    Again I ask you what proportion of expensive bags sold are men's bags?

    Men just don't spend anything like as much money on clothes and accessories as women. That's why ladieswear dominates department stores and millions more square feet are put over to ladieswear than menswear. To say this is not sexist, as you suggest. It is merely a simple statement of fact and anyone who denies it is ignoring the clear evidence in front of them.

    Your £200 shoes? PB Kipper anecdote vs empirical retail evidence.

    What facts are you offering? What evidence?

    Mr O'Flynn wants to " investigate the feasibility of imposing a luxury goods rate of VAT."

    http://www.ukip.org/patrick_o_flynn_lays_out_ukip_s_economic_plan

    Why are you prattling on about women's fashion?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I must confess that I never thought of Mr Carswell as a *leader* aspiring or otherwise. He enjoys ploughing his own furrow too much and the intellectual side of ideas.

    My query would be that UKIP is a small pond and Mr Carswell has a big ego. He may have no designs on Nigel's job - but that doesn't make for happy bedfellows if they fall out. And Nigel has form when it comes to falling out with people.

    I'm just appreciating the gaiety it all adds to the nation for now.
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    To all the people forecasting Carswell wouldn't fit in at ukip...

    Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver)
    26/09/2014 14:34
    Douglas Carswell: Doesn't it feel great to be in UKIP? #UKIPConf14

    Sam we're not saying that Douglas won't fit in, just that it's going to be a tight squeeze with Nigel in there also.

    Carswell for leader!
    No not you... Although I should nt think he wants to be the boss

    A couple of people though Carswell was a pro immigration kinda guy who would hate the ruffians at ukip...

    I had to link to about a dozen anti immigration quotes from Carswell before they shut up
    Hmm not so sure (about his leadership intentions).

    He left the Cons because they weren't close enough to his views and now he is the big fish with the opportunity to shape UKIP's strategy.

    What better way to shape a party's strategy than to be leader of it.

    Plus he is a politician. He didn't enter politics not to take the opportunities when they present themselves.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited September 2014
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    To all the people forecasting Carswell wouldn't fit in at ukip...

    Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver)
    26/09/2014 14:34
    Douglas Carswell: Doesn't it feel great to be in UKIP? #UKIPConf14

    Sam we're not saying that Douglas won't fit in, just that it's going to be a tight squeeze with Nigel in there also.

    Carswell for leader!
    No not you... Although I should nt think he wants to be the boss

    A couple of people though Carswell was a pro immigration kinda guy who would hate the ruffians at ukip...

    I had to link to about a dozen anti immigration quotes from Carswell before they shut up
    Hmm not so sure (about his leadership intentions).

    He left the Cons because they weren't close enough to his views and now he is the big fish with the opportunity to shape UKIP's strategy.

    What better way to shape a party's strategy than to be leader of it.

    Plus he is a politician. He didn't enter politics not to take the opportunities when they present themselves.
    Ok if you say so
    "OK if you say so"??

    Sam that is not the level of debate politicians, captains of industry, the great and the good and perhaps even Victoria Beckham, talking of spenny handbags, flock to PB to read.

    :)
  • Dave

    Again - O'Flynn is the one citing shoes and bags, not me.
  • isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    To all the people forecasting Carswell wouldn't fit in at ukip...

    Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver)
    26/09/2014 14:34
    Douglas Carswell: Doesn't it feel great to be in UKIP? #UKIPConf14

    Sam we're not saying that Douglas won't fit in, just that it's going to be a tight squeeze with Nigel in there also.

    Carswell for leader!
    No not you... Although I should nt think he wants to be the boss

    A couple of people though Carswell was a pro immigration kinda guy who would hate the ruffians at ukip...

    I had to link to about a dozen anti immigration quotes from Carswell before they shut up
    Hmm not so sure (about his leadership intentions).

    He left the Cons because they weren't close enough to his views and now he is the big fish with the opportunity to shape UKIP's strategy.

    What better way to shape a party's strategy than to be leader of it.

    Plus he is a politician. He didn't enter politics not to take the opportunities when they present themselves.
    Ok if you say so
    You really are knocking them out with your quality of debate today ISam.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited September 2014
    Plato said:

    I must confess that I never thought of Mr Carswell as a *leader* aspiring or otherwise. He enjoys ploughing his own furrow too much and the intellectual side of ideas.

    My query would be that UKIP is a small pond and Mr Carswell has a big ego. He may have no designs on Nigel's job - but that doesn't make for happy bedfellows if they fall out. And Nigel has form when it comes to falling out with people.

    I'm just appreciating the gaiety it all adds to the nation for now.

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    To all the people forecasting Carswell wouldn't fit in at ukip...

    Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver)
    26/09/2014 14:34
    Douglas Carswell: Doesn't it feel great to be in UKIP? #UKIPConf14

    Sam we're not saying that Douglas won't fit in, just that it's going to be a tight squeeze with Nigel in there also.

    Carswell for leader!
    No not you... Although I should nt think he wants to be the boss

    A couple of people though Carswell was a pro immigration kinda guy who would hate the ruffians at ukip...

    I had to link to about a dozen anti immigration quotes from Carswell before they shut up
    Hmm not so sure (about his leadership intentions).

    He left the Cons because they weren't close enough to his views and now he is the big fish with the opportunity to shape UKIP's strategy.

    What better way to shape a party's strategy than to be leader of it.

    Plus he is a politician. He didn't enter politics not to take the opportunities when they present themselves.
    I agree it is certainly a more colourful place.

    And as for (the other ie non-Cam) DC, he may not have wanted to lead the Cons but this is a different kettle of ferragamos.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Yes, I understand that and agree with you.

    Where it becomes tricky is what exactly would be done. I don't think NATO would fire on "Latvian Rebels" supported by Russian "humanitarian aid". I feel the West may well end up preferring the collapse of NATO to war with Russia. Far too many are wobbly, too weak, too scared about Russia and horrifed by war; they will find any excuse not to pull the trigger. It's now a very fractured alliance.

    Do you disagree?

    In terms of deterring Russia, now. What do you think we should do? Station troops permanently in the Baltic States in defiance of our previous agreements? Up our defence spending? Increase our presence in Germany? All of them?

    I'm interested in your specific suggestions.
    Wouldn't it be easier to chuck the Germans and other pacifist nations out of the alliance. They all make a mockery of the spending thresholds. One hopes the next government will increase military spending to ensure we are well protected against a newly belligerent Russia.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited September 2014

    Dave

    Again - O'Flynn is the one citing shoes and bags, not me.

    You're the one who assumes that only women wear shoes. Only women use bags. Only women buy cars.

    I suspect you'll find that the number of rich women, is matched by the number of rich men.
  • Mr. Llama, air strikes help support ground troops and to pen in ISIS. Victory is the destruction of the 'state'.

    Without air strikes it is entirely possible the dam would remain in ISIS hands and they would've made more headway against the Kurds. Airstrikes aren't a magic bullet, as it were, but are necessary and are helpful.
  • I'm amazed, given the composition of the Russian federation, that the Kremlin thinks that it's a smart longterm strategy to foment separatism in its neighbours. It has far more to lose from this game than to gain:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_Russia
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    Mr. Llama, air cover will be very helpful to those forces on the ground. It helped turf the mad bastards out of a critical dam, and helped arrest their advance towards Kurdish areas.

    On the diplomatic front, as Rory Someone (Stewart?) said on QT last night, we should be trying our best to cement a strong regional alliance against ISIS.

    If we do nothing, ISIS could well overrun Syria and Iraq. And then Jordan, and Lebanon would be vulnerable. At what point would we take action?

    Mr. D., I have no objection in principle to going to war. I have a massive objection to going to war without the faintest idea of how to win it, or even what a win would look like. All that does is cause huge expenditure of treasure and lives for no good purpose.

    Actually I think Patrick Cockburn has a very good critique of Cameron's policy in the independent. I hope MPs think very hard before committing this country to yet another war.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/on-the-eve-of-yet-another-war-in-iraq-is-the-uks-strategy-any-more-coherent-than-in-2003-9756567.html
  • Dave

    Yet another kipper who doesn't grasp the definition of the word overwhelmingly
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ha! You can be my Jimmy Choo, anytime ;^ )
    TOPPING said:

    Plato said:

    I must confess that I never thought of Mr Carswell as a *leader* aspiring or otherwise. He enjoys ploughing his own furrow too much and the intellectual side of ideas.

    My query would be that UKIP is a small pond and Mr Carswell has a big ego. He may have no designs on Nigel's job - but that doesn't make for happy bedfellows if they fall out. And Nigel has form when it comes to falling out with people.

    I'm just appreciating the gaiety it all adds to the nation for now.

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    To all the people forecasting Carswell wouldn't fit in at ukip...

    Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver)
    26/09/2014 14:34
    Douglas Carswell: Doesn't it feel great to be in UKIP? #UKIPConf14

    Sam we're not saying that Douglas won't fit in, just that it's going to be a tight squeeze with Nigel in there also.

    Carswell for leader!
    No not you... Although I should nt think he wants to be the boss

    A couple of people though Carswell was a pro immigration kinda guy who would hate the ruffians at ukip...

    I had to link to about a dozen anti immigration quotes from Carswell before they shut up
    Hmm not so sure (about his leadership intentions).

    He left the Cons because they weren't close enough to his views and now he is the big fish with the opportunity to shape UKIP's strategy.

    What better way to shape a party's strategy than to be leader of it.

    Plus he is a politician. He didn't enter politics not to take the opportunities when they present themselves.
    I agree it is certainly a more colourful place.

    And as for (the other ie non-Cam) DC, he may not have wanted to lead the Cons but this is a different kettle of ferragamos.

  • Dave

    Yet another kipper who doesn't grasp the definition of the word overwhelmingly

    Bobajob: a Bob who doesn't grasp the difference between assertion, and fact.

    But that doesn't mean you matter less that the other Bobs, Bob. You're a Bob too.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Isam

    As usual you lose the argument and resort to personal insults.

    Happens every time.

    I haven't insulted you, I'm being nice

    You've made a stupid comment, assumed only women buy expensive shoes and bags, citing anecdotal evidence from your wife

    Then tried to rebut my reply as "anecdotal" while forgetting that the tax on expensive cars, in your line of thinking , could easily be described as a tax on men

    Which you'd probably have called sexist if someone else had said it!

    Go back to saying PB this PB that only onPB or changing your login or something until you learn to argue properly

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    Hugh said:

    Ed didn't "forget" the economy, TSE, he talked about it at great length.

    He just didn't shriek "deficit!" every two minutes like your Party.


    Lol - nerve struck - result!
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Certainly, the Baltic States have to be the line in the sand, otherwise, we might just as well wind NATO up.

    WRT crime rates, it seems to be the case that *violent* crime peaked c.2004. I imagine that violent crime generates more concern than crime generally.
    Mr. F., With regard to the credibility of NATO the nation I look to is Belgium. Would Belgium commit ground troops to the defence of the Baltic states? If the answer is, No, then NATO is already a paper tiger.
  • Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Yes, I understand that and agree with you.

    Where it becomes tricky is what exactly would be done. I don't think NATO would fire on "Latvian Rebels" supported by Russian "humanitarian aid". I feel the West may well end up preferring the collapse of NATO to war with Russia. Far too many are wobbly, too weak, too scared about Russia and horrifed by war; they will find any excuse not to pull the trigger. It's now a very fractured alliance.

    Do you disagree?

    In terms of deterring Russia, now. What do you think we should do? Station troops permanently in the Baltic States in defiance of our previous agreements? Up our defence spending? Increase our presence in Germany? All of them?

    I'm interested in your specific suggestions.
    Perhaps we could abide by the agreement struck by which the Soviet Union voluntarily withdrew from Eastern Europe and reverse NATO expansion. Abolishing NATO would also make sense as the Warsaw Pact no longer exists.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/former-u-s-ambassador-to-the-soviet-union-the-u-s-and-nato-are-provoking-the-ukrainian-crisis/5399602
  • Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Certainly, the Baltic States have to be the line in the sand, otherwise, we might just as well wind NATO up.

    WRT crime rates, it seems to be the case that *violent* crime peaked c.2004. I imagine that violent crime generates more concern than crime generally.
    Mr. F., With regard to the credibility of NATO the nation I look to is Belgium. Would Belgium commit ground troops to the defence of the Baltic states? If the answer is, No, then NATO is already a paper tiger.
    Why stop at Beligium? We should look to the plucky Luxembourg defence forces!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    To all the people forecasting Carswell wouldn't fit in at ukip...

    Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver)
    26/09/2014 14:34
    Douglas Carswell: Doesn't it feel great to be in UKIP? #UKIPConf14

    Sam we're not saying that Douglas won't fit in, just that it's going to be a tight squeeze with Nigel in there also.

    Carswell for leader!
    No not you... Although I should nt think he wants to be the boss

    A couple of people though Carswell was a pro immigration kinda guy who would hate the ruffians at ukip...

    I had to link to about a dozen anti immigration quotes from Carswell before they shut up
    Hmm not so sure (about his leadership intentions).

    He left the Cons because they weren't close enough to his views and now he is the big fish with the opportunity to shape UKIP's strategy.

    What better way to shape a party's strategy than to be leader of it.

    Plus he is a politician. He didn't enter politics not to take the opportunities when they present themselves.
    Ok if you say so
    "OK if you say so"??

    Sam that is not the level of debate politicians, captains of industry, the great and the good and perhaps even Victoria Beckham, talking of spenny handbags, flock to PB to read.

    :)
    Sorry I'm trying yo answer questions about Carswell etc while trading the t20 cricket... I don't think Carswell wants be leader of ukip, if you do , ok... I'm not being glib, just don't want to argue, neither of us know do we?! X
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Certainly, the Baltic States have to be the line in the sand, otherwise, we might just as well wind NATO up.

    WRT crime rates, it seems to be the case that *violent* crime peaked c.2004. I imagine that violent crime generates more concern than crime generally.
    Mr. F., With regard to the credibility of NATO the nation I look to is Belgium. Would Belgium commit ground troops to the defence of the Baltic states? If the answer is, No, then NATO is already a paper tiger.
    Belgium is completely useless. It hardly exists as a country, in any case. Poland fortunately, is not a paper tiger. One credible military option, in the event of a Russian incursion into the Baltic States would be to occupy Kaliningrad.

  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Certainly, the Baltic States have to be the line in the sand, otherwise, we might just as well wind NATO up.

    WRT crime rates, it seems to be the case that *violent* crime peaked c.2004. I imagine that violent crime generates more concern than crime generally.
    Mr. F., With regard to the credibility of NATO the nation I look to is Belgium. Would Belgium commit ground troops to the defence of the Baltic states? If the answer is, No, then NATO is already a paper tiger.
    Belgium is completely useless. It hardly exists as a country, in any case. Poland fortunately, is not a paper tiger. One credible military option, in the event of a Russian incursion into the Baltic States would be to occupy Kaliningrad.

    That's an interesting idea.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    edited September 2014
    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Yes, I understand that and agree with you.

    Where it becomes tricky is what exactly would be done. I don't think NATO would fire on "Latvian Rebels" supported by Russian "humanitarian aid". I feel the West may well end up preferring the collapse of NATO to war with Russia. Far too many are wobbly, too weak, too scared about Russia and horrifed by war; they will find any excuse not to pull the trigger. It's now a very fractured alliance.

    Do you disagree?

    In terms of deterring Russia, now. What do you think we should do? Station troops permanently in the Baltic States in defiance of our previous agreements? Up our defence spending? Increase our presence in Germany? All of them?

    I'm interested in your specific suggestions.
    Perhaps we could abide by the agreement struck by which the Soviet Union voluntarily withdrew from Eastern Europe and reverse NATO expansion. Abolishing NATO would also make sense as the Warsaw Pact no longer exists.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/former-u-s-ambassador-to-the-soviet-union-the-u-s-and-nato-are-provoking-the-ukrainian-crisis/5399602
    Abolishing NATO? Is that your real agenda?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Certainly, the Baltic States have to be the line in the sand, otherwise, we might just as well wind NATO up.

    WRT crime rates, it seems to be the case that *violent* crime peaked c.2004. I imagine that violent crime generates more concern than crime generally.
    Mr. F., With regard to the credibility of NATO the nation I look to is Belgium. Would Belgium commit ground troops to the defence of the Baltic states? If the answer is, No, then NATO is already a paper tiger.
    Belgium supplied ground forces and F16's in Afghanistan - why wouldn't they commit troops to the Baltic states?
  • Isam

    Yet again wrong. I didn't say only, or exclusively, I said overwhelmingly. As I have said. Duh!

    I would call you a wally for getting it wrong yet again but I won't because unlike you I don't resort to childish insults.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Isam

    Yet again wrong. I didn't say only, or exclusively, I said overwhelmingly. As I have said. Duh!

    I would call you a wally for getting it wrong yet again but I won't because unlike you I don't resort to childish insults.

    You da man!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    FalseFlag said:



    Perhaps we could abide by the agreement struck by which the Soviet Union voluntarily withdrew from Eastern Europe and reverse NATO expansion. Abolishing NATO would also make sense as the Warsaw Pact no longer exists.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/former-u-s-ambassador-to-the-soviet-union-the-u-s-and-nato-are-provoking-the-ukrainian-crisis/5399602

    Correct. NATO was created for three reasons, "To keep the Sovs out, the Yanks in and the Germans down". All three of those reasons had disappeared more than twenty years ago. NATO is now an anchronism that does more harm than good.

    That is not to say that there are not benefits to be found under mutual defence agreements but such agreements need to be mutual, realistic and related to defence.
  • MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Wouldn't it be easier to chuck the Germans and other pacifist nations out of the alliance. They all make a mockery of the spending thresholds. One hopes the next government will increase military spending to ensure we are well protected against a newly belligerent Russia.
    All nations in NATO should commit a credible portion of their national forces as an expeditionary NATO defence force. This must include heavy ground defence (APCs, mobile artillery) and light infantry, army air support, navy, sea air defence, ground air strike, and amphibious assets. It must have rapid reaction capability and be credible to defeat a sizeable ground army c.25,000+ men.

    New command and intelligence structures should be set up. All NATO members should adhere to the minimum 2% funding. Annual exercises should be held, the balance of them in eastern Europe. We should re-consider some form of missile shield.

    We should also have SIS, and SAS troops, on the ground in Poland and the Baltic states to improve our intelligence gathering capabilities. Occasionally, Russia should know they are there.

    Politically, there needs to be a redeclaration of the principle of mutual defence after that, signed in blood by all NATO government leaders. But only when backed up by the military strength and intelligence force increases. Incursions and subterfuge can then be properly publicised by the West, so the world truly knows what Russia is up to, and domestic debates can be held to build public opinion behind the need to resist incursion.

    The Russians will get wind of all that, and understand it. They should then back off.
  • The continual bickering of boba-whatever-he's- called-now and isam is getting bloody annoying. You pair do it on every thread!
  • Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    As a man who has bought £200 trainers in the past, I now feel the victim of a pincer movement.
  • Mr. F, to be fair, Belgium does have an excellent F1 circuit, and makes exceedingly good chocolates.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Not myself, but you're right about it being a great idea.

    I'm helping out at the Sally Army in a couple of weeks, and have done client survey work for the local housing team. The Big Society wasn't pitched correctly all that time ago, but it's alive and kicking.

    I've met some really interesting people along the way so I wouldn't claim it was at all altruistic!

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

  • FalseFlag said:



    Perhaps we could abide by the agreement struck by which the Soviet Union voluntarily withdrew from Eastern Europe and reverse NATO expansion. Abolishing NATO would also make sense as the Warsaw Pact no longer exists.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/former-u-s-ambassador-to-the-soviet-union-the-u-s-and-nato-are-provoking-the-ukrainian-crisis/5399602

    Correct. NATO was created for three reasons, "To keep the Sovs out, the Yanks in and the Germans down". All three of those reasons had disappeared more than twenty years ago. NATO is now an anchronism that does more harm than good.

    That is not to say that there are not benefits to be found under mutual defence agreements but such agreements need to be mutual, realistic and related to defence.
    Disagree. Russia now needs to be 'kept out', and the Yanks are needed more than ever - Europe is essentially defenceless.

    True, the Germans no longer need to be kept down. The problem, now, is more ensuring they keep up.
  • @TFS

    Yeah fair point. You won't hear any more on the matter from me
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    edited September 2014
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Certainly, the Baltic States have to be the line in the sand, otherwise, we might just as well wind NATO up.

    WRT crime rates, it seems to be the case that *violent* crime peaked c.2004. I imagine that violent crime generates more concern than crime generally.
    Mr. F., With regard to the credibility of NATO the nation I look to is Belgium. Would Belgium commit ground troops to the defence of the Baltic states? If the answer is, No, then NATO is already a paper tiger.
    Belgium is completely useless. It hardly exists as a country, in any case. Poland fortunately, is not a paper tiger. One credible military option, in the event of a Russian incursion into the Baltic States would be to occupy Kaliningrad.

    With apologies to Nikita Krushchev:

    "Kaliningrad is the testicles of Russia. Every time I want to make the Russians scream, I squeeze on Kaliningrad!"

    :)
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.
    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    FalseFlag said:



    Perhaps we could abide by the agreement struck by which the Soviet Union voluntarily withdrew from Eastern Europe and reverse NATO expansion. Abolishing NATO would also make sense as the Warsaw Pact no longer exists.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/former-u-s-ambassador-to-the-soviet-union-the-u-s-and-nato-are-provoking-the-ukrainian-crisis/5399602

    Correct. NATO was created for three reasons, "To keep the Sovs out, the Yanks in and the Germans down". All three of those reasons had disappeared more than twenty years ago. NATO is now an anchronism that does more harm than good.

    That is not to say that there are not benefits to be found under mutual defence agreements but such agreements need to be mutual, realistic and related to defence.
    Disagree. Russia now needs to be 'kept out', and the Yanks are needed more than ever - Europe is essentially defenceless.

    True, the Germans no longer need to be kept down. The problem, now, is more ensuring they keep up.
    If NATO were to fall apart, due to the apathy of its members, I think it's far more likely that this country would experience a major war, in my lifetime, than if it hangs together.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited September 2014
    Speaking of fashion victims... This is rather fun - the British Library have opened up their local newspaper archives and there's some cracking stuff in there from the last 250yrs


    Fashion victim: The Illustrated Police News of June 25, 1870, told of the “melancholy instance” of Dorothea, the eldest daughter of the esteemed Vincent Posthelwaite, Esq. The young woman, who had adopted the fashion for tight corsets, died while dancing with a beau at a ball. Doctors found her heart “had been impeded” by the tight lacing.
    I loved this one
    Knees nobbled: The Illustrated Police News of Oct 31, 1861, reported “extraordinary scenes” outside Victoria Station, where a bus of schoolboy footballers was visiting. The boys, who had been dressed in shorts and overcoats, inadvertently “exposed their knees” to members of the public, leading one “severe-looking lady” to exclaim in horror over the “gross and indecent exhibition”.
    telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/11122560/Corsets-lions-and-fake-ears-27-strange-stories-from-the-local-press.html
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited September 2014
    Luxury goods are hard to define in a society that is so different from the 1960s.

    Televisions, or TVs that cost more than £xxx.xx?
    Cigarettes?
    Bottle of whisky over xx.xx
    Shoes over £200.00, or buy 2 pairs for £210.00 (the second a pair of flip flops priced at £20.00 to reduce the main pair to below £200.00)
    Cars or the extras they add to them?
    Concert tickets over £100.00?
    The Ivy but not McDonalds?

    It wouldn't always be easy for the retailer or the shopper to know what was going on.

    Is the owner of the house liable to the mansion tax or the resident? If it is a 3 million house in joint names then each owner has a taxable asset of 1.5 million, less any liability for borrowings. We have individual taxation not joint taxation.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    What would you tax a woman for tattooing her arse?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    edited September 2014

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Certainly, the Baltic States have to be the line in the sand, otherwise, we might just as well wind NATO up.

    WRT crime rates, it seems to be the case that *violent* crime peaked c.2004. I imagine that violent crime generates more concern than crime generally.
    Mr. F., With regard to the credibility of NATO the nation I look to is Belgium. Would Belgium commit ground troops to the defence of the Baltic states? If the answer is, No, then NATO is already a paper tiger.
    Belgium is completely useless. It hardly exists as a country, in any case. Poland fortunately, is not a paper tiger. One credible military option, in the event of a Russian incursion into the Baltic States would be to occupy Kaliningrad.

    "Kaliningrad is the testicles of Russia. Every time I want to make the Russians scream, I squeeze on Kaliningrad!"

    :)
    Strictly speaking, it's an uncomfortable legacy from the last few months of WWII: a part of Germany that was (forcibly) ethnically cleansed in the late 1940s. But, then again, so was much of western Poland.

    The bit I don't like is the fact it was colonised by Soviet settlers, to make it part of mother Russia. It's a sleeping dog that all nations have agreed should stay lying down. But I'd personally prefer it if it had been incorporated into Poland in 1945.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2014
    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And badly drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    Harsh but fair. How much, dare I ask, for a dolphin or a My Little Pony?
  • UKIP have added some 'about Doncaster' facts to their website.

    http://www.ukip.org/doncaster

    Perhaps a Doncaster quiz will be Mr Miliband's next media SNAFU?

    (I came across a Labour list piece the other day claiming that Miliband-major was a less than diligent constituency MP.)

    http://labourlist.org/2013/05/we-need-to-talk-about-south-shields/
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    "Last week, I was chatting to 2 girls in the park, Araminta and Tiggy, who were telling me that under Tory austerity, they've only been able to buy 3 pairs of Jimmy Choos this year..."

  • Supporter of Scottish independence stricken with mystery malady:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29376849

    On a serious note, Kim Jong-Un's medical woe could well be due to death or torture. One wonders if the Kim dynasty will end. Of course, it could be an actual health issue, but given the way the regime seems to be it wouldn't surprise if a senior general and his chums had overthrown him.
  • Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    What would you tax a woman for tattooing her arse?

    A week in the presence of malcomG.
  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721
    So? Happens all the time, the Baltic states have been key lobbyists for sanctions.

    Yes, the Baltics, two of whom openly discriminate on up to 30%+ of their population. If Slavs were non-white or or other religions just imagine the furore. As it is, no one cares.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Provided it wasn't on show, I'd zero rate it!
    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    What would you tax a woman for tattooing her arse?

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    "Last week, I was chatting to 2 girls in the park, Araminta and Tiggy, who were telling me that under Tory austerity, they've only been able to buy 3 pairs of Jimmy Choos this year..."

    Haha

    Did you watch This Week last night?

    Rawnsleys bit on Eds speech was brilliant, absolutely hammered him. Worth a look on the iplayer
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Dolphins, hmmm. My Little Pony requires penal servitude.
    Anorak said:

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And badly drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    Harsh but fair. How much, dare I ask, for a dolphin or a My Little Pony?
  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721
    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
    I remember when I warned that we needed to draw a clear line in the sand after Russia invaded Georgia a few years back. Everyone said I was being melodramatic...
    Georgia invaded South Ossetia.

    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64521

    The sensible conclusion would have been to realise the Russians had set out a clear marker not to interfere in their sphere of influence and that we should not give extremists reason to think they can provoke Russia and that we would then back them up.
    http://isteve.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/did-us-okay-2008-south-ossetian-war.html

    Also Robert Gates makes clear Georgia started the war. Of course you, as ever, know better.
    South Ossetia was an internationally recognised part of Georgia. How can you invade your own country?

    So was Kosovo of Serbia but no one cared then. Tony and friends then invented some cover story but the bottom line was an independent country was invaded and then a part of it carved out as an independent state.

    Goose and gander and all that.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited September 2014
    Itajai said:

    So? Happens all the time, the Baltic states have been key lobbyists for sanctions.

    Yes, the Baltics, two of whom openly discriminate on up to 30%+ of their population. If Slavs were non-white or or other religions just imagine the furore. As it is, no one cares.

    It's not like Russia uses ethnic Russians in neighbouring countries as an excuse to invade and annex territory or anything.
  • If we're going to get endless threads about Latvian Russophobes, I may ask for another sabbatical.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2014
    Anorak said:

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And badly drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    Harsh but fair. How much, dare I ask, for a dolphin or a My Little Pony?
    For such crimes against fashion and society, capital punishment should not be ruled out...!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    What would you tax a woman for tattooing her arse?

    No tax. Just bring back the stocks so folks can pelt the offending ink with rotting vegetables.....

  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Certainly, the Baltic States have to be the line in the sand, otherwise, we might just as well wind NATO up.

    WRT crime rates, it seems to be the case that *violent* crime peaked c.2004. I imagine that violent crime generates more concern than crime generally.
    Mr. F., With regard to the credibility of NATO the nation I look to is Belgium. Would Belgium commit ground troops to the defence of the Baltic states? If the answer is, No, then NATO is already a paper tiger.

    Well, they didn´t sell us bullets.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Itajai said:

    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
    I remember when I warned that we needed to draw a clear line in the sand after Russia invaded Georgia a few years back. Everyone said I was being melodramatic...
    Georgia invaded South Ossetia.

    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64521

    The sensible conclusion would have been to realise the Russians had set out a clear marker not to interfere in their sphere of influence and that we should not give extremists reason to think they can provoke Russia and that we would then back them up.
    http://isteve.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/did-us-okay-2008-south-ossetian-war.html

    Also Robert Gates makes clear Georgia started the war. Of course you, as ever, know better.
    South Ossetia was an internationally recognised part of Georgia. How can you invade your own country?

    So was Kosovo of Serbia but no one cared then. Tony and friends then invented some cover story but the bottom line was an independent country was invaded and then a part of it carved out as an independent state.

    Goose and gander and all that.
    The Serbs were committing genocide in Kosovo, and thus the Responsibility to Protect issue came in. Nothing similar happened in South Ossetia.
  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Certainly, the Baltic States have to be the line in the sand, otherwise, we might just as well wind NATO up.

    WRT crime rates, it seems to be the case that *violent* crime peaked c.2004. I imagine that violent crime generates more concern than crime generally.
    Mr. F., With regard to the credibility of NATO the nation I look to is Belgium. Would Belgium commit ground troops to the defence of the Baltic states? If the answer is, No, then NATO is already a paper tiger.
    Belgium is completely useless. It hardly exists as a country, in any case. Poland fortunately, is not a paper tiger. One credible military option, in the event of a Russian incursion into the Baltic States would be to occupy Kaliningrad.


    Oh, please!
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Certainly, the Baltic States have to be the line in the sand, otherwise, we might just as well wind NATO up.

    WRT crime rates, it seems to be the case that *violent* crime peaked c.2004. I imagine that violent crime generates more concern than crime generally.
    Mr. F., With regard to the credibility of NATO the nation I look to is Belgium. Would Belgium commit ground troops to the defence of the Baltic states? If the answer is, No, then NATO is already a paper tiger.
    Belgium is completely useless. It hardly exists as a country, in any case. Poland fortunately, is not a paper tiger. One credible military option, in the event of a Russian incursion into the Baltic States would be to occupy Kaliningrad.

    "Kaliningrad is the testicles of Russia. Every time I want to make the Russians scream, I squeeze on Kaliningrad!"

    :)
    Strictly speaking, it's an uncomfortable legacy from the last few months of WWII: a part of Germany that was (forcibly) ethnically cleansed in the late 1940s. But, then again, so was much of western Poland.

    The bit I don't like is the fact it was colonised by Soviet settlers, to make it part of mother Russia. It's a sleeping dog that all nations have agreed should stay lying down. But I'd personally prefer it if it had been incorporated into Poland in 1945.
    If we'd have been smart about things, we could have given it to the Jews as their national homeland.
  • Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    Would you exempt cat tattoos? :)
  • Socrates said:

    Itajai said:

    So? Happens all the time, the Baltic states have been key lobbyists for sanctions.

    Yes, the Baltics, two of whom openly discriminate on up to 30%+ of their population. If Slavs were non-white or or other religions just imagine the furore. As it is, no one cares.

    It's not like Russia uses ethnic Russians in neighbouring countries as an excuse to invade and annex territory or anything.
    Did you support Israel's unilateral annexation of the Golan (legally part of Syria) in 1981?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Itajai said:

    So? Happens all the time, the Baltic states have been key lobbyists for sanctions.

    Yes, the Baltics, two of whom openly discriminate on up to 30%+ of their population. If Slavs were non-white or or other religions just imagine the furore. As it is, no one cares.

    I'd rather be a Russian in Latvia than in Russia. Given the treatment that was meted out to the Baltic peoples by Stalin, I'd say they've been extremely generous towards the Russian populations that were settled there.

  • antifrank said:

    If we're going to get endless threads about Latvian Russophobes, I may ask for another sabbatical.

    How's the blogpost on Scottish seats going?
  • Socrates said:

    Itajai said:

    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
    I remember when I warned that we needed to draw a clear line in the sand after Russia invaded Georgia a few years back. Everyone said I was being melodramatic...
    Georgia invaded South Ossetia.

    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64521

    The sensible conclusion would have been to realise the Russians had set out a clear marker not to interfere in their sphere of influence and that we should not give extremists reason to think they can provoke Russia and that we would then back them up.
    http://isteve.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/did-us-okay-2008-south-ossetian-war.html

    Also Robert Gates makes clear Georgia started the war. Of course you, as ever, know better.
    South Ossetia was an internationally recognised part of Georgia. How can you invade your own country?

    So was Kosovo of Serbia but no one cared then. Tony and friends then invented some cover story but the bottom line was an independent country was invaded and then a part of it carved out as an independent state.

    Goose and gander and all that.
    The Serbs were committing genocide in Kosovo, and thus the Responsibility to Protect issue came in. Nothing similar happened in South Ossetia.
    Georgia tried to retake South Ossetia by force in 1991-2, after the region's declaration of independence in 1990, but they lost.
  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721
    edited September 2014
    Sean_F said:

    Itajai said:

    So? Happens all the time, the Baltic states have been key lobbyists for sanctions.

    Yes, the Baltics, two of whom openly discriminate on up to 30%+ of their population. If Slavs were non-white or or other religions just imagine the furore. As it is, no one cares.

    I'd rather be a Russian in Latvia than in Russia. Given the treatment that was meted out to the Baltic peoples by Stalin, I'd say they've been extremely generous towards the Russian populations that were settled there.

    So if it´s ok to discriminate against some in the Baltics, why not here.
  • antifrank said:

    If we're going to get endless threads about Latvian Russophobes, I may ask for another sabbatical.

    How's the blogpost on Scottish seats going?
    It will be up on Monday or Tuesday, when I get back. The thinking has been done, but now I need to write it, update tables and where relevant place bets before publication.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Itajai said:

    Sean_F said:

    Itajai said:

    So? Happens all the time, the Baltic states have been key lobbyists for sanctions.

    Yes, the Baltics, two of whom openly discriminate on up to 30%+ of their population. If Slavs were non-white or or other religions just imagine the furore. As it is, no one cares.

    I'd rather be a Russian in Latvia than in Russia. Given the treatment that was meted out to the Baltic peoples by Stalin, I'd say they've been extremely generous towards the Russian populations that were settled there.

    So if it´s ok to discriminate against some in the Baltics, why not here.
    I don't consider that there is major discrimination. There will always be some degree of ill-feeling between different ethnic groups who have a history of conflict.

  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721

    I don't consider that there is major discrimination. There will always be some degree of ill-feeling between different ethnic groups who have a history of conflict.

    What is not major discrimination?
    Being stateless in your own country? Let alone not being allowed to vote in your own country?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    What would you tax a woman for tattooing her arse?

    No tax. Just bring back the stocks so folks can pelt the offending ink with rotting vegetables.....

    Waste of money on both counts. Surely a tattoo has to be seen to be appreciated, and the rotting vegetables can be ploughed in a fertiliser!
  • antifrank said:

    It will be up on Monday or Tuesday, when I get back. The thinking has been done, but now I need to write it, update tables and where relevant place bets before publication.

    Excellent. I think there's money to be made on Scotland.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Itajai said:


    I don't consider that there is major discrimination. There will always be some degree of ill-feeling between different ethnic groups who have a history of conflict.

    What is not major discrimination?
    Being stateless in your own country? Let alone not being allowed to vote in your own country?

    All Russian inhabitants of Latvia have permanent residency in the country, even those who live in property that the Soviets confiscated from Latvian owners.

    All Russian inhabitants of Latvia can apply for Latvian citizenship (60% of them hold Latvian citizenship), However, to obtain Latvian citizenship, they have to pass language and history tests, similar to those that plenty of countries require prospective citizens to pass.

    Given that tens of thousands of ethnic Latvians were butchered and deported by the Soviets, I'd say they've been a model of generosity and tolerance post-independence.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    philiph said:

    Luxury goods are hard to define in a society that is so different from the 1960s.

    Televisions, or TVs that cost more than £xxx.xx?
    Cigarettes?
    Bottle of whisky over xx.xx
    Shoes over £200.00, or buy 2 pairs for £210.00 (the second a pair of flip flops priced at £20.00 to reduce the main pair to below £200.00)
    Cars or the extras they add to them?
    Concert tickets over £100.00?
    The Ivy but not McDonalds?

    It wouldn't always be easy for the retailer or the shopper to know what was going on.

    Is the owner of the house liable to the mansion tax or the resident? If it is a 3 million house in joint names then each owner has a taxable asset of 1.5 million, less any liability for borrowings. We have individual taxation not joint taxation.

    Don't try to act innocent. Who pays the Council Tax now ? Joint owners, tenants whatever. It will defined in their individual contracts. The MT is on the house, not on the people. Just like CT is.
  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Pugo

    I am sure there were other fellow travellers.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Sean_F said:



    Itajai said:


    I don't consider that there is major discrimination. There will always be some degree of ill-feeling between different ethnic groups who have a history of conflict.

    What is not major discrimination?
    Being stateless in your own country? Let alone not being allowed to vote in your own country?

    All Russian inhabitants of Latvia have permanent residency in the country, even those who live in property that the Soviets confiscated from Latvian owners.

    All Russian inhabitants of Latvia can apply for Latvian citizenship (60% of them hold Latvian citizenship), However, to obtain Latvian citizenship, they have to pass language and history tests, similar to those that plenty of countries require prospective citizens to pass.

    Given that tens of thousands of ethnic Latvians were butchered and deported by the Soviets, I'd say they've been a model of generosity and tolerance post-independence.

    Latvians were disproportionately involved supporting the Bolsheviks, Latvian riflemen and a number of the leaders. The biggest victims of the Bolsheviks were the Russians.
  • 524 vs 43 for the Iraq action.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @patrickwintour: Air strikes sanctioned 524 v 43
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    surbiton said:

    philiph said:

    Luxury goods are hard to define in a society that is so different from the 1960s.

    Televisions, or TVs that cost more than £xxx.xx?
    Cigarettes?
    Bottle of whisky over xx.xx
    Shoes over £200.00, or buy 2 pairs for £210.00 (the second a pair of flip flops priced at £20.00 to reduce the main pair to below £200.00)
    Cars or the extras they add to them?
    Concert tickets over £100.00?
    The Ivy but not McDonalds?

    It wouldn't always be easy for the retailer or the shopper to know what was going on.

    Is the owner of the house liable to the mansion tax or the resident? If it is a 3 million house in joint names then each owner has a taxable asset of 1.5 million, less any liability for borrowings. We have individual taxation not joint taxation.

    Don't try to act innocent. Who pays the Council Tax now ? Joint owners, tenants whatever. It will defined in their individual contracts. The MT is on the house, not on the people. Just like CT is.
    Yes, council tax is a local tax to pay for local council services.

    Mansion tax AFAIK is not a local tax to pay for local services. I think the status of it is, and would be defined in a different way. It is a tax on the value of the asset which by definition is a tax on the owner of that asset. They may well legislate to make all owners jointly and severally liable, but that will open up a myriad of interesting possibilities.
  • Cameron really is the heir to Blair!

    :)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PickardJE: Labour MP Rushanara Ali has resigned from the party's front bench in order to vote against military action in Iraq.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    Plato said:

    I'd tax shell-suits if anyone still wore them.

    And bad drawn tattoos. And charge middle-aged women double for any with a cartoon character on their upper arm. And treble for little devils or Tigger.

    Cyclefree said:

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Tut tut: women's shoes (and the handbags, you forgot them) and cars are key political issues.

    I expect EdM will be running on the Heath tomorrow asking people what they think of shoes.

    PS I think we should have a tax on trainers as they are the most hideous shoes known to man or woman, come to that.

    What would you tax a woman for tattooing her arse?

    No tax. Just bring back the stocks so folks can pelt the offending ink with rotting vegetables.....

    Waste of money on both counts. Surely a tattoo has to be seen to be appreciated, and the rotting vegetables can be ploughed in a fertiliser!
    Oh, it was intended that the ink would be fully on display. My proposal would require a strong constitution, as well as a good aim.....

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Scott_P said:

    @patrickwintour: Air strikes sanctioned 524 v 43

    I doubt Alan Henning will be alive this time tomorrow
  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721
    Scott_P said:

    @PickardJE: Labour MP Rushanara Ali has resigned from the party's front bench in order to vote against military action in Iraq.

    The Labourite Warsi. Wonder if she was promoted on merit too?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2014
    Peter Hitchens and Stephen Fry have ding dongs that put thelastbobawhatsisname and myself to shame...

    I am happy to be Hitchens

    http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2014/09/stephen-fry-unintentionally-backs-my-argument-on-drug-law-enforcement-.html
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    "The two topics Ed forgot in his speech, remain the public’s top two issues"

    No they don't. The deficit =/= the economy.
  • Mr. Isam, that does assume he's alive right now.

    If we refuse to attack anyone with a British captive we encourage every gang of murderous lunatics to claim at least one as an insurance policy.
  • By the way in the midst of all the discussions about hand bag taxes (a very silly idea) I think people missed what is an even more silly idea.

    Apparently they intend ending VAT rebates for foreign visitors. Given that these are generally via international reciprocal agreements to prevent double taxation it strikes me all this will do is result in more people paying more tax overall.

    Really not sure they have thought this through.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    Plato said:

    Not myself, but you're right about it being a great idea.

    I'm helping out at the Sally Army in a couple of weeks, and have done client survey work for the local housing team. The Big Society wasn't pitched correctly all that time ago, but it's alive and kicking.

    I've met some really interesting people along the way so I wouldn't claim it was at all altruistic!

    Given I have just looked at the latest threads and there seems to be some argument about women's shoes and cars that I cannot understand ,I thought I might post something trivial as well-
    Anyone doing a parkrun tomorrow ? Good example of the Big Society imo

    Currently involved in a community broadband project, volunteers digging cables and installing fibre broadband to farms, barns and other rural homes and businesses... The cost of connection per home is a small fraction of what BT would charge and no home is left out... even a farm 10km from the nearest other connection that now has 1GBs broadband despite neither mains water nor electricity... Big Society in action...
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    "Peacenik" I may be, but I can't help but feel this "intervention" is going to end in tears.

    If your mate or a relative was killed by Western drones, would you be philosophical about it and think that they died for the greater good? Or would you be furious, and a lot more sympathetic to evil jihadists' argument that the West are out to get "people like you" and that "revenge" had to be got on them?
  • Itajai said:

    Scott_P said:

    @PickardJE: Labour MP Rushanara Ali has resigned from the party's front bench in order to vote against military action in Iraq.

    The Labourite Warsi. Wonder if she was promoted on merit too?
    I don't think she could have held her seat if she had voted for it. Bear in mind that Oona King lost Bethnal green & Bow to Galloway over her support for Iraq.
  • I thought Ukip weren't part of The Establishment or the Political Class they keep banging on about but it seems they are.Nigel says is policy.So if Nigel says Douglas Carswell will not be his successor,that's policy in the world of this new kind of politics that's led by bankers and is very totalitarian and authoritarian.More perhaps a kind of monarchy with Nigel as king.Bow to the great King Nigel,peasants.Trust me,I'm a banker.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/26/nigel-farage-ukip-leadership_n_5888710.html?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics&ir=UK+Politics
This discussion has been closed.