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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ipsos Mori issues index for September is out

SystemSystem Posts: 11,691
edited September 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ipsos Mori issues index for September is out

The @IpsosMORI issues index for September. The 2 issues Ed forgot in his speech, remain the public's top 2 issues pic.twitter.com/oE54vkmHTx

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    First!
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    PS. @TSE - you are a tease!
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    Tim Montgomerie (@TimMontgomerie)
    26/09/2014 12:43
    @Michael_Heaver @UKIP @Steven_Woolfe and @oflynnmep are very good
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Hollobone not defecting - according to twitter.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    I see a relationship between crime rates and views of crime - just a 12 year lag.
  • Options
    So Ed played a blinder pandering to his base but dropped a serious bollock when playing to the wider electorate. Dude.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    To all the people forecasting Carswell wouldn't fit in at ukip...

    Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver)
    26/09/2014 14:34
    Douglas Carswell: Doesn't it feel great to be in UKIP? #UKIPConf14
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,514
    edited September 2014

    PS. @TSE - you are a tease!

    Sorry, hopefully this evening.

    This is the joys of editing PB, you plan one thread, as you are about to publish it, a poll comes out that you were expecting next week....
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited September 2014
    isam said:

    Tim Montgomerie (@TimMontgomerie)
    26/09/2014 12:43
    @Michael_Heaver @UKIP @Steven_Woolfe and @oflynnmep are very good

    Suzanne Evans lost some Good Egg points on her R4 outing. Can she make up ground with her conference speech?????

    http://conservativewoman.co.uk/laura-perrins-political-health-alert-ukip-stumbles-pc-feminist-mush/
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Why did no-one love the NHS in the olden days? (apologies, old people)

    Bastards!!
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    taffys said:

    Hollobone not defecting - according to twitter.

    Thank God Ladbrokes don't lay a decent bet!!!
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    Why are race relations and immigration so much more important to people now?

    Weren't we all supposed to be living happily together by now?
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    PS. @TSE - you are a tease!

    Sorry, hopefully this evening.

    This is the joys of editing PB, you plan one thread, as you are about to publish it, a poll comes out that you were expecting next week....
    Pas de problem. Darn pollsters.

    Do we have a view on what floats the boat of the floaters in the top 80 marginals? A breakdown of this issues index against them?

    Would be interesting to compare and contrast.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    So all three major parties are in favour of what the press will describe as the 3rd gulf war....

    Let's see how it plays out
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    It's unusual for Defence/Foreign Affairs to be so high, I believe.
  • Options
    That watermelon lady Lucas is on Sky - being interviewed about the Islamic State and debate in parliament on potential bombing. What a truly appalling harpie she is.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952

    It's unusual for Defence/Foreign Affairs to be so high, I believe.

    ????

    Well it's bound to be higher when we are about to start bombing the Middle East!

    Have I fallen into a sarcasm trap?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    There's one thing about Ms Lucas - at least I can remember her name. The lady who took over [an Oz lady IIRC] remains entirely beyond my powers of recall.
    Patrick said:

    That watermelon lady Lucas is on Sky - being interviewed about the Islamic State and debate in parliament on potential bombing. What a truly appalling harpie she is.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Golly. This is surreal.

    "Len McCluskey, Unite's general secretary, appealed to Ukip to oppose a transatlantic trade deal which critics fear could open up the NHS to American firms" according to DT RSS feed
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2014
    “40 years ago this month”

    A fascinating glimpse of concerns, past and present – Northern Ireland well down the list, but Trade Unions in the top 3. - as for the rest, somethings, it would appear never change.
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    isam said:

    It's unusual for Defence/Foreign Affairs to be so high, I believe.

    ????

    Well it's bound to be higher when we are about to start bombing the Middle East!

    Have I fallen into a sarcasm trap?
    No, I think this is unusual even allowing for the circumstances. I don't think it's just the prospect of (very limited) bombing, it's probably also Ukraine, Gaza, the general Iraq/Syria situation.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216
    EdM forgets to talk about the two top issues for people. But Cameron is the out of touch one.

    I'm confused.....
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    I'm guessing the following parties have the advantage, in hierarchial rank order of those issues: UKIP, Tory, Labour, Tory, Tory=labour tie, Tory=labour tie, Labour, Tory, Labour and Tory.

    Dunno about Sept 1974 but I do know that by May 1979 the Tories had pretty clear ideas (fairly well indicated to the electorate) and answers to the top 4 issues of the time: monetarism, council house sales, trade union reform and 'staying in'. They also had a fairly clear brand on crime and immigration as well.

    Possible lesson for today's Tories: it's not enough to have an advantage on just one or two issues. You need to have clear answers to all the big issues of the day to win outright, and to argue well for them.
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    A wag in the office asks,

    Inflation was 82 in September 1974.

    Was that the actual inflation figure in September 1974?
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    Plato said:

    There's one thing about Ms Lucas - at least I can remember her name. The lady who took over [an Oz lady IIRC] remains entirely beyond my powers of recall.

    Patrick said:

    That watermelon lady Lucas is on Sky - being interviewed about the Islamic State and debate in parliament on potential bombing. What a truly appalling harpie she is.

    Natalie Bennet.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    What a truly appalling harpie she is.

    She's entitled to her opinion, this is a democracy. Her stance will be put to the voters next May.
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    Small world...Alan Davey, chief executive of Arts Council England has been named new boss of Radio 3.

    Now lets do some dot joining....

    His job history is interesting, and altogether political.

    As a senior civil servant at the Department of Culture Media and Sport, Davey was parachuted into the supposedly independent ACE to bring it in line with government thinking. His Secretary of State at DCMS was James Purnell.

    Purnell is now Director of Strategy and Digital at the BBC, right-hand man to the Director General, Tony Hall.

    The head-hunter who has nominated Davey for the Radio 3 vacancy is Nicky Oppenheimer, a Cabinet Office official under Tony Blair.
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    isam said:

    Why are race relations and immigration so much more important to people now?

    Weren't we all supposed to be living happily together by now?

    Anti-foreign sentiment tends to track (I think with a bit of a lag, as Socrates suggests with crime) economic downturns as people look for an external enemy or an identifiable minority to blame their problems on.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952

    isam said:

    It's unusual for Defence/Foreign Affairs to be so high, I believe.

    ????

    Well it's bound to be higher when we are about to start bombing the Middle East!

    Have I fallen into a sarcasm trap?
    No, I think this is unusual even allowing for the circumstances. I don't think it's just the prospect of (very limited) bombing, it's probably also Ukraine, Gaza, the general Iraq/Syria situation.
    Ah right

    Furry nuff
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    SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @FrancisUrquhart
    Not what you know, but who you know?
    It's terrible when you perceive that to be the case, that method of recruitment is supposed to be job specific.
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    FPT I agree with Plato (and that is not a sentence I write often)

    It does sound a bit sexist, this shoe and handbag tax, as they are goods bought overwhelmingly by women. See my season ticket example FPT.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    @antifrank

    What was the level you sold UKIP 2nd places in the GE at?
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    A wag in the office asks,

    Inflation was 82 in September 1974.

    Was that the actual inflation figure in September 1974?

    Probably 18.2

    see: http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/great-britain/historic-inflation/cpi-inflation-great-britain-1974.aspx
  • Options

    A wag in the office asks,

    Inflation was 82 in September 1974.

    Was that the actual inflation figure in September 1974?

    Probably 18.2

    see: http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/great-britain/historic-inflation/cpi-inflation-great-britain-1974.aspx
    Thanks.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    isam said:

    Why are race relations and immigration so much more important to people now?

    Weren't we all supposed to be living happily together by now?

    Anti-foreign sentiment tends to track (I think with a bit of a lag, as Socrates suggests with crime) economic downturns as people look for an external enemy or an identifiable minority to blame their problems on.
    We've also had a far longer stretch of extremely high immigration than we've ever had before. And, this comes on top of the previous wave in the 50s and 60s, the effects of which haven't gone away (as we see in cases like Rotherham).
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    isam said:

    @antifrank

    What was the level you sold UKIP 2nd places in the GE at?

    It was a fun bet with pulpstar, at 10 with a stop loss of 50.

    Why do you ask? No, I'm not looking to extend it just now!
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited September 2014

    FPT I agree with Plato (and that is not a sentence I write often)

    It does sound a bit sexist, this shoe and handbag tax, as they are goods bought overwhelmingly by women. See my season ticket example FPT.

    The target is luxury goods. Not luxury-goods-only-bought-by-women.

    http://www.ukip.org/patrick_o_flynn_lays_out_ukip_s_economic_plan

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2014/02/luxury-goods-market
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @rosschawkins: (Farage speaking without notes, which bit will he forget?)

    @DAaronovitch: If Nigel Farage were to forget to deliver half his speech no-one would notice and no-one would care.

    @faisalislam: Farage has an earpiece!
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @faisalislam: Gareth channelling live anecdotes from a Clacton park straight to Nigel's ear?
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    Dave

    O'Flynn is the one citing ladies' fashions as two of his three examples, not me.

    Are there plans to take season tickets or Sky Sports subscriptions?
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    Scott_P said:

    @rosschawkins: (Farage speaking without notes, which bit will he forget?)

    @DAaronovitch: If Nigel Farage were to forget to deliver half his speech no-one would notice and no-one would care.

    @faisalislam: Farage has an earpiece!

    Farage does have notes. He is not referring to them much but they are there.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    antifrank said:

    isam said:

    @antifrank

    What was the level you sold UKIP 2nd places in the GE at?

    It was a fun bet with pulpstar, at 10 with a stop loss of 50.

    Why do you ask? No, I'm not looking to extend it just now!
    I just wondered, I am watching the Daily Politics and Matthew Goodwin said they may get 3-5 seats and a hell of a lot of 2nds... I tend to agree, I think they'll get around 40-50 2nd places.

    I thought the level was around 10 so I had to check to see if I was being wildly optimistic/pessimistic!
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited September 2014
    Scott_P said:


    @faisalislam: Farage has an earpiece!

    It could all go horribly wrong, when a crossed wire with a local minicab firm, prompts Farage to start mumbling about a '12 seater minibus for the airport at 3 o'clock' (though conference, being so close to Rotherham, it's more likely to be a taxi to the nearest children's home).

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And Mr Parnell got his BBC Strategy £300k job with a nod. It wasn't even advertised IIRC.
    Smarmeron said:

    @FrancisUrquhart
    Not what you know, but who you know?
    It's terrible when you perceive that to be the case, that method of recruitment is supposed to be job specific.

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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited September 2014

    Dave

    O'Flynn is the one citing ladies' fashions as two of his three examples, not me.

    Are there plans to take season tickets or Sky Sports subscriptions?

    You'll have to point that out to me. I don't see the gender attribute:

    "...such as £200 for a pair of shoes, £1,000 for a bag or £50,000 for a new car."

    http://www.ukip.org/patrick_o_flynn_lays_out_ukip_s_economic_plan
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited September 2014

    isam said:

    Why are race relations and immigration so much more important to people now?

    Weren't we all supposed to be living happily together by now?

    Anti-foreign sentiment tends to track (I think with a bit of a lag, as Socrates suggests with crime) economic downturns as people look for an external enemy or an identifiable minority to blame their problems on.

    Your kidding with that post ? have you ever thought that it could this short period of time with the highest immigration ever seen into this country.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'll return the complement. If they'd been a Like button, I'd have given it a prod.

    FPT I agree with Plato (and that is not a sentence I write often)

    It does sound a bit sexist, this shoe and handbag tax, as they are goods bought overwhelmingly by women. See my season ticket example FPT.

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    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    edited September 2014

    Dave

    O'Flynn is the one citing ladies' fashions as two of his three examples, not me.

    Are there plans to take season tickets or Sky Sports subscriptions?

    What? I've got shoes that cost over £200 and they ain't for ladies!!

    Think again oh metrosexual one

    You're saying only men drive nice cars, only women wear nice shoes and men don't pay up for bags

    Sexist much??

    You really aren't a Londoner!!!
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    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
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    FPT I agree with Plato (and that is not a sentence I write often)

    It does sound a bit sexist, this shoe and handbag tax, as they are goods bought overwhelmingly by women. See my season ticket example FPT.

    Was going to reply, prior to the change of tread – Our good lady’s appear to share very similar tastes in both quality and quantity, when it comes to shoes.

    The days of £200 or the equivalent for 20+ years ago are long gone. – Today, window shopping at Russell and Bromley still elicits the occasional purr, however a glimpse at the price more often than not, generates an ‘are they mad? response.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited September 2014
    This is what I didn't understand about EdM. If he'd had an earwig, someone off stage could've prompted him. But he didn't. That seems like an oversight on even the most basic level. And we've seen the consequences.


    @faisalislam: Farage has an earpiece!
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
    I remember when I warned that we needed to draw a clear line in the sand after Russia invaded Georgia a few years back. Everyone said I was being melodramatic...
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    Isabel Hardman (@IsabelHardman)
    26/09/2014 15:13
    No need for Farage's spinners to stand at back telling crowd to cheer, unlike moribund Labour conference #ukip14
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    Scott_P said:

    @rosschawkins: (Farage speaking without notes, which bit will he forget?)

    @DAaronovitch: If Nigel Farage were to forget to deliver half his speech no-one would notice and no-one would care.

    @faisalislam: Farage has an earpiece!

    If no one followed David Aaronovitch on Twitter would he still exist and would anyone care?

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    isamisam Posts: 40,952

    Scott_P said:


    @faisalislam: Farage has an earpiece!

    It could all go horribly wrong, when a crossed wire with a local minicab firm, prompts Farage to start mumbling about a '12 seater minibus for the airport at 3 o'clock' (though conference, being so close to Rotherham, it's more likely to be a taxi to the nearest children's home).

    Haha that would be great!!

    I think he should pretend to forget a bit a la Ed
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    Farage absolutely laying into Labour. Sticking it where it hurts big style.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Mr Aaronovitch is one of The Times top opinion writers. He's usually very very good.

    Mr Collins has an excellent piece on EdM today to. Cruel, but true sums it up.

    Scott_P said:

    @rosschawkins: (Farage speaking without notes, which bit will he forget?)

    @DAaronovitch: If Nigel Farage were to forget to deliver half his speech no-one would notice and no-one would care.

    @faisalislam: Farage has an earpiece!

    If no one followed David Aaronovitch on Twitter would he still exist and would anyone care?

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    There must be a reason why UKIP want me to go abroad to buy my shoes, but I can't immediately see it.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    Farage has been going round the country doing polling!!! Who for????
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PCollinsTimes: Farage has just, essentially, blamed the Labour party for child abuse. Offensive, ignorant nonsense. What a nasty little man.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Have the Kippers replaced the TUC conference for entertainment value?

    Sounds like it.
    Patrick said:

    Farage absolutely laying into Labour. Sticking it where it hurts big style.

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    antifrank said:

    There must be a reason why UKIP want me to go abroad to buy my shoes, but I can't immediately see it.

    You'll be questioned at the border when you come back. Any Bad Eggs will be reclassified as French, and thrown into the sea!
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    Love him or Loath him... Farage compared with Miliband..no contest.
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    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
    I remember when I warned that we needed to draw a clear line in the sand after Russia invaded Georgia a few years back. Everyone said I was being melodramatic...
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
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    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
    I remember when I warned that we needed to draw a clear line in the sand after Russia invaded Georgia a few years back. Everyone said I was being melodramatic...
    Georgia invaded South Ossetia.

    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64521

    The sensible conclusion would have been to realise the Russians had set out a clear marker not to interfere in their sphere of influence and that we should not give extremists reason to think they can provoke Russia and that we would then back them up.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    He used my line!!!!
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    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    So? Happens all the time, the Baltic states have been key lobbyists for sanctions.

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    Farage talks like a real person. He's a brilliant orator. Love him or not he's a class act.
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    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
    I remember when I warned that we needed to draw a clear line in the sand after Russia invaded Georgia a few years back. Everyone said I was being melodramatic...
    After Russian troops over ran Georgia did Russia occupy or annex it, or did they withdraw?
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    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    So? Happens all the time, the Baltic states have been key lobbyists for sanctions.

    Interesting how you pop up whenever this subject is mentioned.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,360
    edited September 2014
    isam said:

    To all the people forecasting Carswell wouldn't fit in at ukip...

    Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver)
    26/09/2014 14:34
    Douglas Carswell: Doesn't it feel great to be in UKIP? #UKIPConf14

    Sam we're not saying that Douglas won't fit in, just that it's going to be a tight squeeze with Nigel in there also.

    Carswell for leader!
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    Sparrow: - "Angus Robertson, the SNP, says people are right to be sceptical. In the past we have heard strong arguments for intervention. But very little has been said about what will happen next.

    He says today’s motion does support bombing. But it does not say anything about what will be done to construct peace.

    That is why he and the SNP will be voting against the motion, he says."
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    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
    I remember when I warned that we needed to draw a clear line in the sand after Russia invaded Georgia a few years back. Everyone said I was being melodramatic...
    Georgia invaded South Ossetia.

    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64521

    The sensible conclusion would have been to realise the Russians had set out a clear marker not to interfere in their sphere of influence and that we should not give extremists reason to think they can provoke Russia and that we would then back them up.
    http://isteve.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/did-us-okay-2008-south-ossetian-war.html

    Also Robert Gates makes clear Georgia started the war. Of course you, as ever, know better.
  • Options
    @Isam

    No, that's why I said overwhelmingly rather than exclusively.

    What percentage of bags costing over £1000 are men's bags do you think?

  • Options

    Love him or Loath him... Farage compared with Miliband..no contest.

    Miliband has no real skills of oratory. These things still matter.
  • Options
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Farage in favour of English votes for English laws. Mildly surprised he didn't go for an English Parliament. Perhaps later.
  • Options
    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    @Isam

    No, that's why I said overwhelmingly rather than exclusively.

    What percentage of bags costing over £1000 are men's bags do you think?

    Still wibbling on about hand bags?

    You're missing all the fun of the Farage.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    On the subject of the debate going on in Parliament, I see this in the Telegraph:


    "The US air force used a mix of fighter planes, attack jets and remotely piloted drone aircraft to conduct 10 airstrikes on Thursday and Friday, Central Command said.
    There were seven strikes on Isil facilities and equipment in Iraq and three in Syria.
    In Iraq, according to the Centcom read-out, five airstrikes south and southwest of Kirkuk destroyed three Isil Humvees and one Isil vehicle, disabled two other armed vehicles and damaged one Isil mine-resistant ambush protected vehicle.
    One airstrike west of Baghdad destroyed an Isil guard shack, an armed vehicle and a bunker. Another airstrike near Al Qaim destroyed four Isil armed vehicles, a command and control node and a checkpoint.
    Across the border, in Syria, three airstrikes south and southeast of Dayr Az Zawr destroyed four Isil tanks and damaged another."

    So look at the number of air-strikes and the damage they caused to the enemy. It is pretty pathetic. The cost of mounting the strike plus the cost of the ordnance expended must surely far outweigh the cost to the enemy of the equipment lost. I mean five air-strikes destroyed three glorified Land Rovers, one what was probably a Toyota Pick-up truck and damaged three more vehicles. And that is what the Septics are claiming.

    That is not a war winning strategy. It is a strategy for national bankruptcy, spending a few million to knock out a few hundred thousands worth of motor cars is daft. Yet we it would seem are going to join in. Albeit we are going to add half-a-dozen elderly Tornadoes yet we are going to be spending millions for what?

    Where is the game plan? Where are the victory conditions? We are doing it again! We are going to war because of sentiment but with no idea how we are going to win that war or what even victory would look like. We are just going to take on a commitment to bomb some targets for an indefinite period of time, probably years, and hope that something changes. It is loony-tunes.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,952

    @Isam

    No, that's why I said overwhelmingly rather than exclusively.

    What percentage of bags costing over £1000 are men's bags do you think?

    Are suitcases bags?
  • Options
    Round of applause for Nick Clegg. Lolz.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    To all the people forecasting Carswell wouldn't fit in at ukip...

    Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver)
    26/09/2014 14:34
    Douglas Carswell: Doesn't it feel great to be in UKIP? #UKIPConf14

    Sam we're not saying that Douglas won't fit in, just that it's going to be a tight squeeze with Nigel in there also.

    Carswell for leader!
    No not you... Although I should nt think he wants to be the boss

    A couple of people though Carswell was a pro immigration kinda guy who would hate the ruffians at ukip...

    I had to link to about a dozen anti immigration quotes from Carswell before they shut up
  • Options
    HughHugh Posts: 955
    Ed didn't "forget" the economy, TSE, he talked about it at great length.

    He just didn't shriek "deficit!" every two minutes like your Party.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    FalseFlag said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
    I remember when I warned that we needed to draw a clear line in the sand after Russia invaded Georgia a few years back. Everyone said I was being melodramatic...
    Georgia invaded South Ossetia.

    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64521

    The sensible conclusion would have been to realise the Russians had set out a clear marker not to interfere in their sphere of influence and that we should not give extremists reason to think they can provoke Russia and that we would then back them up.
    http://isteve.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/did-us-okay-2008-south-ossetian-war.html

    Also Robert Gates makes clear Georgia started the war. Of course you, as ever, know better.
    South Ossetia was an internationally recognised part of Georgia. How can you invade your own country?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,360
    Surely the pound-sign logo has to go?
  • Options
    Mr. Llama, air cover will be very helpful to those forces on the ground. It helped turf the mad bastards out of a critical dam, and helped arrest their advance towards Kurdish areas.

    On the diplomatic front, as Rory Someone (Stewart?) said on QT last night, we should be trying our best to cement a strong regional alliance against ISIS.

    If we do nothing, ISIS could well overrun Syria and Iraq. And then Jordan, and Lebanon would be vulnerable. At what point would we take action?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    The tom toms are beating a UKIP tune. LOL
  • Options
    Isam yes.

    Again I ask you what proportion of expensive bags sold are men's bags?

    Men just don't spend anything like as much money on clothes and accessories as women. That's why ladieswear dominates department stores and millions more square feet are put over to ladieswear than menswear. To say this is not sexist, as you suggest. It is merely a simple statement of fact and anyone who denies it is ignoring the clear evidence in front of them.

    Your £200 shoes? PB Kipper anecdote vs empirical retail evidence.
  • Options
    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    So? Happens all the time, the Baltic states have been key lobbyists for sanctions.

    Interesting how you pop up whenever this subject is mentioned.
    Personally I would ask why some people seem determined to provoke and instigate hostile actions against another nation, seems like a monomaniac obsession for some, must upset them to be consistently debunked every time.



    It is interesting at his speech to the UN that Obama did not come out directly and implicate Russia and the eastern Ukrainian rebels in the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. Given his access to detailed U.S. intelligence on the topic, he should have been able to point the finger directly, if indeed that’s what the facts showed. Instead, he played word games to create the impression that the rebels and Russia were to blame without actually spelling out any evidence against them. Guess that must be the same reason the conversations with ATC in Kiev have not been released?
  • Options

    On the subject of the debate going on in Parliament, I see this in the Telegraph:


    "The US air force used a mix of fighter planes, attack jets and remotely piloted drone aircraft to conduct 10 airstrikes on Thursday and Friday, Central Command said.
    There were seven strikes on Isil facilities and equipment in Iraq and three in Syria.
    In Iraq, according to the Centcom read-out, five airstrikes south and southwest of Kirkuk destroyed three Isil Humvees and one Isil vehicle, disabled two other armed vehicles and damaged one Isil mine-resistant ambush protected vehicle.
    One airstrike west of Baghdad destroyed an Isil guard shack, an armed vehicle and a bunker. Another airstrike near Al Qaim destroyed four Isil armed vehicles, a command and control node and a checkpoint.
    Across the border, in Syria, three airstrikes south and southeast of Dayr Az Zawr destroyed four Isil tanks and damaged another."

    So look at the number of air-strikes and the damage they caused to the enemy. It is pretty pathetic. The cost of mounting the strike plus the cost of the ordnance expended must surely far outweigh the cost to the enemy of the equipment lost. I mean five air-strikes destroyed three glorified Land Rovers, one what was probably a Toyota Pick-up truck and damaged three more vehicles. And that is what the Septics are claiming.

    That is not a war winning strategy. It is a strategy for national bankruptcy, spending a few million to knock out a few hundred thousands worth of motor cars is daft. Yet we it would seem are going to join in. Albeit we are going to add half-a-dozen elderly Tornadoes yet we are going to be spending millions for what?

    Where is the game plan? Where are the victory conditions? We are doing it again! We are going to war because of sentiment but with no idea how we are going to win that war or what even victory would look like. We are just going to take on a commitment to bomb some targets for an indefinite period of time, probably years, and hope that something changes. It is loony-tunes.

    The West is caught saying 'Something must be done', but without the will to actually do anything meaningful

    Farage is actually right on this. ISIS don't actually have any fear of the West...why should they?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    Erm.... Was that better or worse than Ed Milibands speech do you think????

    Hahahaha

    Yes the old labour vote probably prefer a policy wonk talking about people he met on Hampstead heath

    not forgetting Xiamara from his local boozer

    red Flag to @hugh come steaming in old boy
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Only if you wear as much make-up as Barbara Cartland.
    isam said:

    @Isam

    No, that's why I said overwhelmingly rather than exclusively.

    What percentage of bags costing over £1000 are men's bags do you think?

    Are suitcases bags?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,360
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    To all the people forecasting Carswell wouldn't fit in at ukip...

    Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver)
    26/09/2014 14:34
    Douglas Carswell: Doesn't it feel great to be in UKIP? #UKIPConf14

    Sam we're not saying that Douglas won't fit in, just that it's going to be a tight squeeze with Nigel in there also.

    Carswell for leader!
    No not you... Although I should nt think he wants to be the boss

    A couple of people though Carswell was a pro immigration kinda guy who would hate the ruffians at ukip...

    I had to link to about a dozen anti immigration quotes from Carswell before they shut up
    Hmm not so sure (about his leadership intentions).

    He left the Cons because they weren't close enough to his views and now he is the big fish with the opportunity to shape UKIP's strategy.

    What better way to shape a party's strategy than to be leader of it.

    Plus he is a politician. He didn't enter politics not to take the opportunities when they present themselves.
  • Options
    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
    I remember when I warned that we needed to draw a clear line in the sand after Russia invaded Georgia a few years back. Everyone said I was being melodramatic...
    Georgia invaded South Ossetia.

    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64521

    The sensible conclusion would have been to realise the Russians had set out a clear marker not to interfere in their sphere of influence and that we should not give extremists reason to think they can provoke Russia and that we would then back them up.
    http://isteve.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/did-us-okay-2008-south-ossetian-war.html

    Also Robert Gates makes clear Georgia started the war. Of course you, as ever, know better.
    South Ossetia was an internationally recognised part of Georgia. How can you invade your own country?
    But it is inhabited by Ossetians and declared independence from Georgia in 1990. The Georgians tried to re-take the area by force in 1991-1992, but lost.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991–92_South_Ossetia_War
  • Options
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:
    What do you think is the solution?

    I don't think NATO would go to war to defend an incursion of one of the Baltic States. For starters, Russia would camouflage it enough to generate a 'debate' in the West about what to do.

    I wonder if we should now put the withdrawal of our army from Germany on hold. IMHO if there is a change in the manifesto for the next Tory government, it should include freezing foreign aid at current levels (abandoning the 0.7% GDP target) - the argument would be that we were already achieving huge things with our aid budget and growing faster than other G7 countries etc..

    The 2015 strategic defence review then needs to increase spending, I'm afraid. Reactivate 3-4 RAF fighter squadrons, a couple of extra batallions of light infantry, a replacement for Nimrod, and maybe add a couple of extra frigates to the type 26 naval orders.
    If we allow democratic countries that are both in NATO and in the EU to be invaded without reprisal than the entire Western alliance will collapse in finger-pointing. It would give an utter go ahead to every regional power in the world to do what the hell they wanted. Russia would move on from the Baltic states to start looking at controlling places like Bulgaria and Romania, then Poland, and then keep on going. The GDP of the NATO alliance is more than ten times that of Russia, and Moscow knows this. They just think they have stronger will than we do.
    Yes, I understand that and agree with you.

    Where it becomes tricky is what exactly would be done. I don't think NATO would fire on "Latvian Rebels" supported by Russian "humanitarian aid". I feel the West may well end up preferring the collapse of NATO to war with Russia. Far too many are wobbly, too weak, too scared about Russia and horrifed by war; they will find any excuse not to pull the trigger. It's now a very fractured alliance.

    Do you disagree?

    In terms of deterring Russia, now. What do you think we should do? Station troops permanently in the Baltic States in defiance of our previous agreements? Up our defence spending? Increase our presence in Germany? All of them?

    I'm interested in your specific suggestions.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    edited September 2014

    Isam yes.

    Again I ask you what proportion of expensive bags sold are men's bags?

    Men just don't spend anything like as much money on clothes and accessories as women. That's why ladieswear dominates department stores and millions more square feet are put over to ladieswear than menswear. To say this is not sexist, as you suggest. It is merely a simple statement of fact and anyone who denies it is ignoring the clear evidence in front of them.

    Your £200 shoes? PB Kipper anecdote vs empirical retail evidence.


    Haha

    Oh bore off!!!!

    You could just as easily say men buy far more 50k cars and say it was anti men

    Try and make some kind of weedy feminist point if you like you just look a wally
  • Options
    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The Baltic countries are registering a dramatic increase in Russian military provocations, rattling nerves in a region which fears it could be the next frontier after Ukraine in Moscow’s quest at asserting its regional power.

    Nato fighters policing Baltic airspace were scrambled 68 times along Lithuania’s borders this year, by far the highest count in more than 10 years. Latvia registered 150 “close incidents”, cases where Russian aircraft were found approaching and observed for risky behaviour. Estonia said its sovereign airspace had been violated by Russian aircraft five times this year, nearing the total count of seven over the previous eight years.


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9d016276-43c3-11e4-baa7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EQmVx2yi

    Salami slices.

    This worries me.
    I remember when I warned that we needed to draw a clear line in the sand after Russia invaded Georgia a few years back. Everyone said I was being melodramatic...
    Georgia invaded South Ossetia.

    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/64521

    The sensible conclusion would have been to realise the Russians had set out a clear marker not to interfere in their sphere of influence and that we should not give extremists reason to think they can provoke Russia and that we would then back them up.
    http://isteve.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/did-us-okay-2008-south-ossetian-war.html

    Also Robert Gates makes clear Georgia started the war. Of course you, as ever, know better.
    South Ossetia was an internationally recognised part of Georgia. How can you invade your own country?
    The 1992 agreement divided South Ossetia into areas controlled by Georgia and areas controlled by the unrecognised government of South Osseti, surely you know that?
  • Options
    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Isam yes.

    Again I ask you what proportion of expensive bags sold are men's bags?

    Men just don't spend anything like as much money on clothes and accessories as women. That's why ladieswear dominates department stores and millions more square feet are put over to ladieswear than menswear. To say this is not sexist, as you suggest. It is merely a simple statement of fact and anyone who denies it is ignoring the clear evidence in front of them.

    Your £200 shoes? PB Kipper anecdote vs empirical retail evidence.

    From the poster who on a previous thread gave us anecdotal evidence of their wife's 60+ pairs of shoes. How funny.
This discussion has been closed.