MofK At present UKIP are in double figures and about to win the Clacton by-electon, the Tories led a recent Mori poll and Cameron will get a union bounce, that is where the movement now is, though ironically if there is an EU referendum it is the Scots who could now keep the UK in in a tight vote. I do believe devomax will occur in some form though, hopefully with at least more powers for English councils and maybe EVEL. Anyway, off to see Riot Club
Salmond finds a tame media outfit and claims that Westminster is tricking those who voted No. Like Brown he doesn't miss an opportunity to muddy the waters.
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
Now Gordon is back in town he can demolish the Tory lies about the cause of the economic crash and become a well-respected asset in GE2015.He has emerged stronger than ever from the wilderness.He saved the world and saved the union.Is Gordon the new Moses?
One thing that's struck me about indyref, and it doesn't bode well for Labour, is how well fear and scaremongering actually worked.
The nastiness of CyberUnionists is a case in point. Even today I, and the site owner, were trolled pretty badly on a pro-independence blog. Even though I supported No, and even though the vote is done.
I'm sure no-one here was responsible. As we know, PBTories are respectable, calm, rational and civilised. As Tim could confirm.
I agree Hugh.
I think perhaps that PB regulars who do not frequent any other blogs or discussion forums don't realise just how nasty some of the pro Unionist bile has been. All the more if you are English and declare your support for Scots Independence.
That is not in anyway to excuse the similar action by the Yes camp. Both have been poor. But it is certainly not all one way.
Have I just slept through the last 4 years and woken up to the nightmare of Gordon Brown still being in charge?
The way he is going around and the media is reporting it, anybody would think he is in charge of England AND Scotland, rather than Cameron and Salmond. He's not even in the shadow cabinet, but appears to be setting out what the UK government position is.
I was canvassing our second strongest Labour ward today (very WWC) and three people said how good it was to see Gordon back in form. He's still got quite a few fans - including Cameron, apparently.
Anecdotally, it was striking with this ward and with the mainly Tory ward I did last week just how entrenched people are. The occasional interested but undecided voter - maybe about 5% of the canvass - really stood out among all the committed voters, some of whom were frankly more vehemently partisan than I am. It's not surprising how immobile the polls have been, and hard to see any big changes in the remaining months - I wouldn't be surprised if the conference bounces were smaller than usual.
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
He was also turfed out of power after less than three years as PM in Labour's worst election result since 1983...
What's more EV4EL will create a de facto English parliament. Nobody is seriously arguing for a near replica set of MPs. Nor have I heard many arguments for a separate excecutive.
No it doesn't. What it does is allow English MPs to alter and reject legislation. It does not give them the power to define and allocate budgets for devolved areas or indeed define the agendas or originate policies for those devolved areas. It also does not stop their amendments on devolved areas being thrown out by the Home Nations peers in the House Of Lords.
Its a weak fudge which at best allows them to block legislation. Nothing else! Effectively it will replicate the sort of Scenario one sees every year in Washington with the US budget. As a result of that dysfunctional mess the US Government and Legisalture are held in ever greater contempt. Undermining Westminster is hardly the way forward
Why should it not be blocked, if it is opposed by the majority of MPs in the area it is intended for?
No-one is suggesting that EVFEL is constitutional nirvana -what it is is a stop gap solution to prevent an abuse of democracy, that should have been in place as soon as devolution took effect, and should be in place now. Any frustrations and difficulties (if there are such) are spurs to work toward an eventual better solution.
What the post I responded to said was it creates a de facto English Parliament . They are trying to suggest it is Nirvana. I disagreed with that and I am glad you do as well. But don't tell me. I know what it is. Tell the people (Tories?) who are claiming it is Nirvana!
Where I will disagree with you is that EVfEL does not stop the abuse of democracy it marginally lessens it.
PS And who exactly in the Tory leadership are talking about EVfEL being a stepping stone to something better. Not Cameron to my knowledge...
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
Now Gordon is back in town he can demolish the Tory lies about the cause of the economic crash and become a well-respected asset in GE2015.He has emerged stronger than ever from the wilderness.He saved the world and saved the union.Is Gordon the new Moses?
Tory lies such as 'No More Boom Or Bust' and 'British Jobs For British Workers'? How about 'Gulags for Slags'? That was a goody.
And should we have weekly mobile throwing ceremonies and a ritual for condemning little old ladies as bigots?
Next you'll be suggesting Sion Simon, John Prescott and Mick Martin should make comebacks too! Hey what about good ole Tone as well?
Mr Prescott did his best to help with Better Together, did you not hear? He tried slagging off the Tories and suggested merging the English and Scottish footie teams - 'Better Together' and all that - to try and get the Germans. (Might have worked, if all 22 were in the UK side ...).
Yes, at the moment England should merge with Wales rather than Scotland. That way we would get to have Gareth Bale in the team!
Danny Blanchflower @D_Blanchflower 2h "men who have been promise makers will not be promise breakers I will ensure that as a promise keeper that these promises will be upheld" GB
TCPB There will not be another referendum on independence until at least 2030, if at all, though the constitutional debates will continue for a few years at least the conversation is now happening. An EU referendum in 2017 is more likely to be the next referendum vote if Cameron is returned as PM
If the main 3 parties keep breaking the Vow an early scotch referendum is guaranteed. Also the SNP like the EC and may adopt their approach of re-running a referendum until they get the answer they wanted.
I am very impressed by Gordon Brown's intellectual depth. He is interesting to listen to, and I enjoyed his speech today. I think he does deserve respect, I think he stepped forward to save the Union when the time came.
Danny Blanchflower @D_Blanchflower 2h "men who have been promise makers will not be promise breakers I will ensure that as a promise keeper that these promises will be upheld" GB
Titter, Titter, Titter........ Hmmm now what was that about a referendum on the EU Constitution Lisbon Treaty and who signed the Treaty in the middle of the night without a referendum?
Have I just slept through the last 4 years and woken up to the nightmare of Gordon Brown still being in charge?
The way he is going around and the media is reporting it, anybody would think he is in charge of England AND Scotland, rather than Cameron and Salmond. He's not even in the shadow cabinet, but appears to be setting out what the UK government position is.
I was canvassing our second strongest Labour ward today (very WWC) and three people said how good it was to see Gordon back in form. He's still got quite a few fans - including Cameron, apparently.
Anecdotally, it was striking with this ward and with the mainly Tory ward I did last week just how entrenched people are. The occasional interested but undecided voter - maybe about 5% of the canvass - really stood out among all the committed voters, some of whom were frankly more vehemently partisan than I am. It's not surprising how immobile the polls have been, and hard to see any big changes in the remaining months - I wouldn't be surprised if the conference bounces were smaller than usual.
That's my reading of events too ,Nick,but it's going to be that 5% or so,who can bring the overall majority.All to play for still but there must be clarity on the NHS.Labour has still to convince it is genuine.
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
Superb spoof or too much koolaid, you decide.
Koolaid is famously a right-wing beverage of choice. We lefties prefer best bitter...
The Union cannot continue unless the Vow is fulfilled.
Cameron would offer devomax for Scotland tomorrow if he could get EV4EL in return tomorrow.
Why can't he??
Labour.
And that is what he will say to Scotland.
What will labour say?
Labour has 257 MPs out of 650. They're not in a position to block anything.
Cameron can only count on about that many MPs as well, in spite of the actual numbers theoretically available, so he's not in much of a position to offer much either though.
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
Fantastic. Your Broon love is the best laugh I have had on this site in ages.
One thing that's struck me about indyref, and it doesn't bode well for Labour, is how well fear and scaremongering actually worked.
The nastiness of CyberUnionists is a case in point. Even today I, and the site owner, were trolled pretty badly on a pro-independence blog. Even though I supported No, and even though the vote is done.
I'm sure no-one here was responsible. As we know, PBTories are respectable, calm, rational and civilised. As Tim could confirm.
I agree Hugh.
I think perhaps that PB regulars who do not frequent any other blogs or discussion forums don't realise just how nasty some of the pro Unionist bile has been. All the more if you are English and declare your support for Scots Independence.
That is not in anyway to excuse the similar action by the Yes camp. Both have been poor. But it is certainly not all one way.
Andy Murray, too, appears to have been the subject of a lot of vile twitter abuse, simply for declaring his support of independence. There are cyber-supporters on both sides of the debate who behave in reprehensible ways.
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
He has saved nothing. His offer is a ticking cluster bomb of some considerable force. One can only hope that the inept leaderships of the Westminster parties have a Eureka moment and successfully come up with a solution that sates the demands of all four Home Nations and disable Brown's cluster bomb.
Only Brown could resolve to fix a problem by creating four potentially more serious problems. The Union is nowhere near safe.....
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
He has saved nothing. His offer is a ticking cluster bomb of some considerable force. One can only hope that the inept leaderships of the Westminster parties have a Eureka moment and successfully come up with a solution that sates the demands of all four Home Nations and disable Brown's cluster bomb.
Only Brown could resolve to fix a problem by creating four potentially more serious problems. The Union is nowhere near safe.....
Events,dear boy,events.Gordon Brown's steady hand on the tiller will prevent the incompetent old Etonians from effing it all up.
This is the first Saturday in months when I have not felt a vague heavy dread hanging over me as I contemplate the possible break-up of the UK. Not having to worry about that is actually taking a bit of getting used to.
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
He has saved nothing. His offer is a ticking cluster bomb of some considerable force. One can only hope that the inept leaderships of the Westminster parties have a Eureka moment and successfully come up with a solution that sates the demands of all four Home Nations and disable Brown's cluster bomb.
Only Brown could resolve to fix a problem by creating four potentially more serious problems. The Union is nowhere near safe.....
Events,dear boy,events.Gordon Brown's steady hand on the tiller will prevent the incompetent old Etonians from effing it all up.
I am very impressed by Gordon Brown's intellectual depth. He is interesting to listen to, and I enjoyed his speech today. I think he does deserve respect, I think he stepped forward to save the Union when the time came.
I'm rather sceptical about a return to mainstream politics though. It seems to me that occasional interventions are all we are likely to get from him.
Can the BBC please start keeping up captions when they interview "experts". It would be nice to know what biases they might have when they only have one point of view. There's a guy laying into David Cameron right now, who I'm pretty sure is Labour, but I don't know.
He could easily be a BBC newsreader by your description.
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
He has saved nothing. His offer is a ticking cluster bomb of some considerable force. One can only hope that the inept leaderships of the Westminster parties have a Eureka moment and successfully come up with a solution that sates the demands of all four Home Nations and disable Brown's cluster bomb.
Only Brown could resolve to fix a problem by creating four potentially more serious problems. The Union is nowhere near safe.....
Events,dear boy,events.Gordon Brown's steady hand on the tiller will prevent the incompetent old Etonians from effing it all up.
You are so funny and if you think that having a go at the 'Eton Trifles' is going to upset me you are even more deluded than I previously thought. Brown is the most malevolent force in British politics in my lifetime and every time you defend him just makes look that little bit more absurd.
PS And if you think linking to that propaganda comic for over-aged urban liberal infants (you know the one that runs at a horrendous loss every year) impresses me then you really are in cloud cuckoo land.
This is the first Saturday in months when I have not felt a vague heavy dread hanging over me as I contemplate the possible break-up of the UK. Not having to worry about that is actually taking a bit of getting used to.
Indeed. Sure there's plenty of aggravation and confusion about constitutional settlements moving forward, but we have long experience muddling through with that, and at least things can be attempted to appease all now the immediate threat of secession has been dealt with.
Have I just slept through the last 4 years and woken up to the nightmare of Gordon Brown still being in charge?
The way he is going around and the media is reporting it, anybody would think he is in charge of England AND Scotland, rather than Cameron and Salmond. He's not even in the shadow cabinet, but appears to be setting out what the UK government position is.
I was canvassing our second strongest Labour ward today (very WWC) and three people said how good it was to see Gordon back in form. He's still got quite a few fans - including Cameron, apparently.
Anecdotally, it was striking with this ward and with the mainly Tory ward I did last week just how entrenched people are. The occasional interested but undecided voter - maybe about 5% of the canvass - really stood out among all the committed voters, some of whom were frankly more vehemently partisan than I am. It's not surprising how immobile the polls have been, and hard to see any big changes in the remaining months - I wouldn't be surprised if the conference bounces were smaller than usual.
Nick, Do conferences ever change long term voting intentions? A bounce after all implies going up and then coming own again in quite short order.
I think there is still some movement to come, but probably not until quite well into the new year and probably not to Labour's advantage. Perhaps the fixed term means that even fewer people than previously pay any attention to politics when they don't have to.
One thing that's struck me about indyref, and it doesn't bode well for Labour, is how well fear and scaremongering actually worked.
The nastiness of CyberUnionists is a case in point. Even today I, and the site owner, were trolled pretty badly on a pro-independence blog. Even though I supported No, and even though the vote is done.
I'm sure no-one here was responsible. As we know, PBTories are respectable, calm, rational and civilised. As Tim could confirm.
I agree Hugh.
I think perhaps that PB regulars who do not frequent any other blogs or discussion forums don't realise just how nasty some of the pro Unionist bile has been. All the more if you are English and declare your support for Scots Independence.
That is not in anyway to excuse the similar action by the Yes camp. Both have been poor. But it is certainly not all one way.
Andy Murray, too, appears to have been the subject of a lot of vile twitter abuse, simply for declaring his support of independence. There are cyber-supporters on both sides of the debate who behave in reprehensible ways.
On last week's Mock the Week (11/9:a week before the referendum) Dara O Briain mentioned that no Scots comedians would agree to be on the panel.
Brown is deluded. He is up there in Scotland saying all this stuff will be delivered but he has absolutely no power to make it so. He said today that if the promises are not kept then the parties will pay at the ballot box. Given that the Tories and Lib Dems are in power and will be far more concerned about keeping England happy than Scotland.
So how exactly is a failed politician languishing on the back benches going to force the rest of Parliament and the Government to do his bidding. (And thats before we even get to the Lords)
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
He has saved nothing. His offer is a ticking cluster bomb of some considerable force. One can only hope that the inept leaderships of the Westminster parties have a Eureka moment and successfully come up with a solution that sates the demands of all four Home Nations and disable Brown's cluster bomb.
Only Brown could resolve to fix a problem by creating four potentially more serious problems. The Union is nowhere near safe.....
Events,dear boy,events.Gordon Brown's steady hand on the tiller will prevent the incompetent old Etonians from effing it all up.
You are so funny and if you think that having a go at the 'Eton Trifles' is going to upset me you are even more deluded than I previously thought. Brown is the most malevolent force in British politics in my lifetime and every time you defend him just makes look that little bit more absurd.
PS And if you think linking to that propaganda comic for over-aged urban liberal infants (you know the one that runs at a horrendous loss every year) impresses me then you really are in cloud cuckoo land.
Except he's right, isn't he? For all his manifest faults, Gordon Brown has been right three times when it mattered. He saved the pound; he saved the world; now he has saved the union.
Danny Blanchflower @D_Blanchflower 2h "men who have been promise makers will not be promise breakers I will ensure that as a promise keeper that these promises will be upheld" GB
Danny Blanchflower? - the economist who has called nothing right since 2010. #usefultool
This is the first Saturday in months when I have not felt a vague heavy dread hanging over me as I contemplate the possible break-up of the UK. Not having to worry about that is actually taking a bit of getting used to.
I know what you mean. Have a drinkie or two and go to bed early, get a proper night's sleep. You'll feel fine in the morning.
Remember the end of the Lord Chancellor's song,
"And its daylight at last And the night has been long, Ditto, ditto my song; And thank goodness they are both of them over"
This is the first Saturday in months when I have not felt a vague heavy dread hanging over me as I contemplate the possible break-up of the UK. Not having to worry about that is actually taking a bit of getting used to.
Indeed. Sure there's plenty of aggravation and confusion about constitutional settlements moving forward, but we have long experience muddling through with that, and at least things can be attempted to appease all now the immediate threat of secession has been dealt with.
That 'muddling through' has seen collective support for Labour and Conservative fall from over 80% of the eligible population in the 1950's to below 40% of the eligible population in 2010. Somehow I get the feeling that people don't consider 'muddling through' as satisfactory. Not least the Union when you consider that 85% of English and Welsh in the 2011 census did not identify themselves as British and 45% of Scottish voters have just voted for independence
Can the BBC please start keeping up captions when they interview "experts". It would be nice to know what biases they might have when they only have one point of view. There's a guy laying into David Cameron right now, who I'm pretty sure is Labour, but I don't know.
He could easily be a BBC newsreader by your description.
The Union cannot continue unless the Vow is fulfilled.
Cameron would offer devomax for Scotland tomorrow if he could get EV4EL in return tomorrow.
Why can't he??
Labour.
And that is what he will say to Scotland.
What will labour say?
Labour has 257 MPs out of 650. They're not in a position to block anything.
Yes, it's not a matter of Cameron "getting" EV4EL. He has to offer it to get DevoMax past his backbenchers.
The house of commons will not vote for EV4EL especially as it is such a major change but also because it has always been rejected when people looked at it. The Conservatives are a minority party and obviously that isn't going to change any time soon.
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
He has saved nothing. His offer is a ticking cluster bomb of some considerable force. One can only hope that the inept leaderships of the Westminster parties have a Eureka moment and successfully come up with a solution that sates the demands of all four Home Nations and disable Brown's cluster bomb.
Only Brown could resolve to fix a problem by creating four potentially more serious problems. The Union is nowhere near safe.....
Events,dear boy,events.Gordon Brown's steady hand on the tiller will prevent the incompetent old Etonians from effing it all up.
You are so funny and if you think that having a go at the 'Eton Trifles' is going to upset me you are even more deluded than I previously thought. Brown is the most malevolent force in British politics in my lifetime and every time you defend him just makes look that little bit more absurd.
PS And if you think linking to that propaganda comic for over-aged urban liberal infants (you know the one that runs at a horrendous loss every year) impresses me then you really are in cloud cuckoo land.
Except he's right, isn't he? For all his manifest faults, Gordon Brown has been right three times when it mattered. He saved the pound; he saved the world; now he has saved the union.
Brown is deluded. He is up there in Scotland saying all this stuff will be delivered but he has absolutely no power to make it so. He said today that if the promises are not kept then the parties will pay at the ballot box. Given that the Tories and Lib Dems are in power and will be far more concerned about keeping England happy than Scotland.
So how exactly is a failed politician languishing on the back benches going to force the rest of Parliament and the Government to do his bidding. (And thats before we even get to the Lords)
The man is a complete fool.
Perhaps tomorrow the Sunday papers will have more details of what Brown agreed with Cameron and Clegg. Pb commenters would have us believe the first the government knew of any commitment to new powers was when they saw Brown's speech on Youtube. It probably wasn't really like that.
Brown is deluded. He is up there in Scotland saying all this stuff will be delivered but he has absolutely no power to make it so. He said today that if the promises are not kept then the parties will pay at the ballot box. Given that the Tories and Lib Dems are in power and will be far more concerned about keeping England happy than Scotland.
So how exactly is a failed politician languishing on the back benches going to force the rest of Parliament and the Government to do his bidding. (And thats before we even get to the Lords)
The man is a complete fool.
Is he trying to become First Minister? Of an independent Scotland?
This is the first Saturday in months when I have not felt a vague heavy dread hanging over me as I contemplate the possible break-up of the UK. Not having to worry about that is actually taking a bit of getting used to.
Indeed. Sure there's plenty of aggravation and confusion about constitutional settlements moving forward, but we have long experience muddling through with that, and at least things can be attempted to appease all now the immediate threat of secession has been dealt with.
That 'muddling through' has seen collective support for Labour and Conservative fall from over 80% of the eligible population in the 1950's to below 40% of the eligible population in 2010 is no validation of Westminster's performance.
Somehow I get the feeling that people don't consider 'muddling through' as satisfactory. Not least the Union when you consider that 85% of English and Welsh in the 2011 census failed to identify themselves as British at all and 45% of Scottish voters have just voted for independence
That's why I said at least things can be attempted to appease all now, which wouldn't be the case if Scotland was already on the way out. Muddling though is merely reverting back to our default state, which is infinitely easier to handle than my emotional panic of the lat few years, not the end state we aspire to.
I am very impressed by Gordon Brown's intellectual depth. He is interesting to listen to, and I enjoyed his speech today. I think he does deserve respect, I think he stepped forward to save the Union when the time came.
So a chap who had a big hand in creating devolution which nurtured the SNP and who "led SLAB" leaving them in such poor shape that the SNP took power in Scotland and brought about an independence referendum, then comes back and devises a shambolic arrangement to save the Union from a mess he helped create and now leaves us with an even bigger mess affecting all parts of the UK. Un spoofable.
Nick, Do conferences ever change long term voting intentions? A bounce after all implies going up and then coming own again in quite short order.
I think there is still some movement to come, but probably not until quite well into the new year and probably not to Labour's advantage. Perhaps the fixed term means that even fewer people than previously pay any attention to politics when they don't have to.
Hurst, I agree about the conferences. My comment was just that this year's bounces may be smaller.
I'm sure there will be some movement before May, but I think it will less than usual in the last 8 months. I've been active in politics for over 40 years and I've never met fewer "don't knows".
I am disappointed but not surprised by the Pb Tories response to the man who saved the union.He is widely respected amongst non-PB Tory groups.He is a man who does his best,unlike the current PM who is so arrogantly "born to rule" he wanted to be PM because he thought he would "quite good at it".Cameron just doesn't have Gordon's depth,let alone his intellectual self-confidence.
He has saved nothing. His offer is a ticking cluster bomb of some considerable force. One can only hope that the inept leaderships of the Westminster parties have a Eureka moment and successfully come up with a solution that sates the demands of all four Home Nations and disable Brown's cluster bomb.
Only Brown could resolve to fix a problem by creating four potentially more serious problems. The Union is nowhere near safe.....
Events,dear boy,events.Gordon Brown's steady hand on the tiller will prevent the incompetent old Etonians from effing it all up.
You are so funny and if you think that having a go at the 'Eton Trifles' is going to upset me you are even more deluded than I previously thought. Brown is the most malevolent force in British politics in my lifetime and every time you defend him just makes look that little bit more absurd.
PS And if you think linking to that propaganda comic for over-aged urban liberal infants (you know the one that runs at a horrendous loss every year) impresses me then you really are in cloud cuckoo land.
Except he's right, isn't he? For all his manifest faults, Gordon Brown has been right three times when it mattered. He saved the pound; he saved the world; now he has saved the union.
Of for goodness sake. What utter drivel! Someone has been spiking the kool-ade again
Brown is deluded. He is up there in Scotland saying all this stuff will be delivered but he has absolutely no power to make it so. He said today that if the promises are not kept then the parties will pay at the ballot box. Given that the Tories and Lib Dems are in power and will be far more concerned about keeping England happy than Scotland.
So how exactly is a failed politician languishing on the back benches going to force the rest of Parliament and the Government to do his bidding. (And thats before we even get to the Lords)
The man is a complete fool.
Perhaps tomorrow the Sunday papers will have more details of what Brown agreed with Cameron and Clegg. Pb commenters would have us believe the first the government knew of any commitment to new powers was when they saw Brown's speech on Youtube. It probably wasn't really like that.
It doesn't matter. Brown's own party is going to make sure he can't keep his promises because they will not budge on EV4EL and will try to kick everything into the long grass.
I don't doubt Brown's commitment but he is just mad to think that he can push this throughh by force of will.
It is also worth pointing out that no one even knows what is going to be offered as 'Devomax'. Certainly what the SNP and Yes are claiming it means (basically everything except Defence and Foreign affairs) is a very long way from what most people on here seem to think.
Brown is deluded. He is up there in Scotland saying all this stuff will be delivered but he has absolutely no power to make it so. He said today that if the promises are not kept then the parties will pay at the ballot box. Given that the Tories and Lib Dems are in power and will be far more concerned about keeping England happy than Scotland.
So how exactly is a failed politician languishing on the back benches going to force the rest of Parliament and the Government to do his bidding. (And thats before we even get to the Lords)
The man is a complete fool.
Perhaps tomorrow the Sunday papers will have more details of what Brown agreed with Cameron and Clegg. Pb commenters would have us believe the first the government knew of any commitment to new powers was when they saw Brown's speech on Youtube. It probably wasn't really like that.
My assumption was there was broad agreement of the intention to make such an offer, probably after the referendum was one when people would have been in a generous mood and there had been time to iron out the details. But the panic, justified or not, among the unionists led to the offer being stepped up from intimation to direct promise before the referendum was over and before it was fully fleshed out, with the inconvenient impact on England. Offered after a win and though it would have created a minor storm, good feeling may have kept it from being a major issue, but because it was made before in a time of panic, resentment at making concessions as a bribe have stirred things up more than intended.
I am very impressed by Gordon Brown's intellectual depth. He is interesting to listen to, and I enjoyed his speech today. I think he does deserve respect, I think he stepped forward to save the Union when the time came.
Best I've seen of Brown. Made the quiet Darling look like a real wimp in terms of fighting to keep the Union.
I'm giving a piece of credit to Brown and I've never voted Labour and probably never will.
Brown is deluded. He is up there in Scotland saying all this stuff will be delivered but he has absolutely no power to make it so. He said today that if the promises are not kept then the parties will pay at the ballot box. Given that the Tories and Lib Dems are in power and will be far more concerned about keeping England happy than Scotland.
So how exactly is a failed politician languishing on the back benches going to force the rest of Parliament and the Government to do his bidding. (And thats before we even get to the Lords)
The man is a complete fool.
Perhaps tomorrow the Sunday papers will have more details of what Brown agreed with Cameron and Clegg. Pb commenters would have us believe the first the government knew of any commitment to new powers was when they saw Brown's speech on Youtube. It probably wasn't really like that.
It doesn't matter. Brown's own party is going to make sure he can't keep his promises because they will not budge on EV4EL and will try to kick everything into the long grass.
I don't doubt Brown's commitment but he is just mad to think that he can push this throughh by force of will.
It is also worth pointing out that no one even knows what is going to be offered as 'Devomax'. Certainly what the SNP and Yes are claiming it means (basically everything except Defence and Foreign affairs) is a very long way from what most people on here seem to think.
That was certainly the meaning of devomax being used in the early stages of the debate, so it's not a new thing at all. Any more and we Scots'd be independent.
I am very impressed by Gordon Brown's intellectual depth. He is interesting to listen to, and I enjoyed his speech today. I think he does deserve respect, I think he stepped forward to save the Union when the time came.
Best I've seen of Brown. Made the quiet Darling look like a real wimp in terms of fighting to keep the Union.
I'm giving a piece of credit to Brown and I've never voted Labour and probably never will.
Just watched his speech.
Yes, it was good. In hindsight we can probably agree the Union was safe by that point, but it was a very effective campaign speech.
Brown is deluded. He is up there in Scotland saying all this stuff will be delivered but he has absolutely no power to make it so. He said today that if the promises are not kept then the parties will pay at the ballot box. Given that the Tories and Lib Dems are in power and will be far more concerned about keeping England happy than Scotland.
So how exactly is a failed politician languishing on the back benches going to force the rest of Parliament and the Government to do his bidding. (And thats before we even get to the Lords)
The man is a complete fool.
Perhaps tomorrow the Sunday papers will have more details of what Brown agreed with Cameron and Clegg. Pb commenters would have us believe the first the government knew of any commitment to new powers was when they saw Brown's speech on Youtube. It probably wasn't really like that.
It doesn't matter. Brown's own party is going to make sure he can't keep his promises because they will not budge on EV4EL and will try to kick everything into the long grass.
I don't doubt Brown's commitment but he is just mad to think that he can push this throughh by force of will.
It is also worth pointing out that no one even knows what is going to be offered as 'Devomax'. Certainly what the SNP and Yes are claiming it means (basically everything except Defence and Foreign affairs) is a very long way from what most people on here seem to think.
That was certainly the meaning of devomax being used in the early stages of the debate, so it's not a new thing at all. Any more and we Scots'd be independent.
I agree. I am just not sure that that has sunk in with a lot of other people yet.
Brown is deluded. He is up there in Scotland saying all this stuff will be delivered but he has absolutely no power to make it so. He said today that if the promises are not kept then the parties will pay at the ballot box. Given that the Tories and Lib Dems are in power and will be far more concerned about keeping England happy than Scotland.
So how exactly is a failed politician languishing on the back benches going to force the rest of Parliament and the Government to do his bidding. (And thats before we even get to the Lords)
The man is a complete fool.
Perhaps tomorrow the Sunday papers will have more details of what Brown agreed with Cameron and Clegg. Pb commenters would have us believe the first the government knew of any commitment to new powers was when they saw Brown's speech on Youtube. It probably wasn't really like that.
It doesn't matter. Brown's own party is going to make sure he can't keep his promises because they will not budge on EV4EL and will try to kick everything into the long grass.
I don't doubt Brown's commitment but he is just mad to think that he can push this throughh by force of will.
It is also worth pointing out that no one even knows what is going to be offered as 'Devomax'. Certainly what the SNP and Yes are claiming it means (basically everything except Defence and Foreign affairs) is a very long way from what most people on here seem to think.
That was certainly the meaning of devomax being used in the early stages of the debate, so it's not a new thing at all. Any more and we Scots'd be independent.
That may well be what you thought was being discussed/offered but the problem with DevoMax, as opposed to outright independence, is that it needs the consent of the other party(ies) and nobody thought to ask them. So now we have another row.
Cameron really is a fecking useless politician without a strategic bone in his body. Do sod all, plan sod all until the problem hits you smack in the face and then wing it is a viable modus operandi for an undergraduate or even a junior manager who never wants to be promoted but at the top level it really isn't good enough.
This is the first Saturday in months when I have not felt a vague heavy dread hanging over me as I contemplate the possible break-up of the UK. Not having to worry about that is actually taking a bit of getting used to.
Indeed. Sure there's plenty of aggravation and confusion about constitutional settlements moving forward, but we have long experience muddling through with that, and at least things can be attempted to appease all now the immediate threat of secession has been dealt with.
That 'muddling through' has seen collective support for Labour and Conservative fall from over 80% of the eligible population in the 1950's to below 40% of the eligible population in 2010 is no validation of Westminster's performance.
Somehow I get the feeling that people don't consider 'muddling through' as satisfactory. Not least the Union when you consider that 85% of English and Welsh in the 2011 census failed to identify themselves as British at all and 45% of Scottish voters have just voted for independence
That's why I said at least things can be attempted to appease all now, which wouldn't be the case if Scotland was already on the way out. Muddling though is merely reverting back to our default state, which is infinitely easier to handle than my emotional panic of the lat few years, not the end state we aspire to.
You seem to be missing the point 'muddling through' (and demonstrations of extreme intransigence in doing so) has led us to the point where I expect that you will be experiencing emotional panic on a far more regular and more persistent basis. There is a power struggle going on between a damaged and increasingly discredited (British and European) establishment and those determined to wrest power from them and redistribute it. The more the establishment resists the more they risk the whole thing being pulled apart from the bottom up.
Muddling through just won't be enough anymore......
I suppose it's a waste of time to state the obvious that a Yes vote on Thursday would have solved the West Lothian Question, and that a Yes vote at some point in the future will solve it.
This is the first Saturday in months when I have not felt a vague heavy dread hanging over me as I contemplate the possible break-up of the UK. Not having to worry about that is actually taking a bit of getting used to.
Indeed. Sure there's plenty of aggravation and confusion about constitutional settlements moving forward, but we have long experience muddling through with that, and at least things can be attempted to appease all now the immediate threat of secession has been dealt with.
That 'muddling through' has seen collective support for Labour and Conservative fall from over 80% of the eligible population in the 1950's to below 40% of the eligible population in 2010 is no validation of Westminster's performance.
Somehow I get the feeling that people don't consider 'muddling through' as satisfactory. Not least the Union when you consider that 85% of English and Welsh in the 2011 census failed to identify themselves as British at all and 45% of Scottish voters have just voted for independence
That's why I said at least things can be attempted to appease all now, which wouldn't be the case if Scotland was already on the way out. Muddling though is merely reverting back to our default state, which is infinitely easier to handle than my emotional panic of the lat few years, not the end state we aspire to.
You seem to be missing the point 'muddling through' (and demonstrations of extreme intransigence in doing so) has led us to the point where I expect that you will be experiencing emotional panic on a far more regular and more persistent basis. There is a power struggle going on between a damaged and increasingly discredited (British and European) establishment and those determined to wrest power from them and redistribute it. The more the establishment resists the more they risk the whole thing being pulled apart from the bottom up.
Muddling through just won't be enough anymore......
You seem to be missing the point as well - I acknowledged muddling though won't be enough anymore, hence the bit about it being 'not the end point we aspire to'. I was making the point that we have a chance to sort it out now, whereas we might not have had Scotland voted yes, and that is encouraging at least, even if there is no certainty we will manage to come to an acceptable solution. You appear to be arguing against a point not made.
I suppose it's a waste of time to state the obvious that a Yes vote on Thursday would have solved the West Lothian Question, and that a Yes vote at some point in the future will solve it.
Other solutions would be preferred, if possible. If it's not possible, then as you suggest, a more final solution will occur eventually.
I think in this instance Brown genuinely wants to keep people together. He wants to make the vow real for that reason. A more cynical explanation could be that he wants to get his name all over 'vow' delivery, giving him an excellent background to re-enter Scottish politics. I don't see why he shouldn't do that.
Four times Mayor Dorothy Thornhill selected by LD's for Watford. Probable gain? Worth a bet!
Yep, the Lib Dems have a good chance now. They need to convince people in Watford that the Lib Dems are the best challengers to take the seat over Labour, the last Ashcroft polls showed the anti-Tory vote pretty split.
Brown is deluded. He is up there in Scotland saying all this stuff will be delivered but he has absolutely no power to make it so. He said today that if the promises are not kept then the parties will pay at the ballot box. Given that the Tories and Lib Dems are in power and will be far more concerned about keeping England happy than Scotland.
....
Perhaps tomorrow the Sunday papers will have more details of what Brown agreed with Cameron and Clegg. Pb commenters would have us believe the first the government knew of any commitment to new powers was when they saw Brown's speech on Youtube. It probably wasn't really like that.
It doesn't matter. Brown's own party is going to make sure he can't keep his promises because they will not budge on EV4EL and will try to kick everything into the long grass.
I don't doubt Brown's commitment but he is just mad to think that he can push this throughh by force of will.
It is also worth pointing out that no one even knows what is going to be offered as 'Devomax'. Certainly what the SNP and Yes are claiming it means (basically everything except Defence and Foreign affairs) is a very long way from what most people on here seem to think.
That was certainly the meaning of devomax being used in the early stages of the debate, so it's not a new thing at all. Any more and we Scots'd be independent.
That may well be what you thought was being discussed/offered but the problem with DevoMax, as opposed to outright independence, is that it needs the consent of the other party(ies) and nobody thought to ask them. So now we have another row.
Cameron really is a fecking useless politician without a strategic bone in his body. Do sod all, plan sod all until the problem hits you smack in the face and then wing it is a viable modus operandi for an undergraduate or even a junior manager who never wants to be promoted but at the top level it really isn't good enough.
Comments
I think perhaps that PB regulars who do not frequent any other blogs or discussion forums don't realise just how nasty some of the pro Unionist bile has been. All the more if you are English and declare your support for Scots Independence.
That is not in anyway to excuse the similar action by the Yes camp. Both have been poor. But it is certainly not all one way.
Anecdotally, it was striking with this ward and with the mainly Tory ward I did last week just how entrenched people are. The occasional interested but undecided voter - maybe about 5% of the canvass - really stood out among all the committed voters, some of whom were frankly more vehemently partisan than I am. It's not surprising how immobile the polls have been, and hard to see any big changes in the remaining months - I wouldn't be surprised if the conference bounces were smaller than usual.
Where I will disagree with you is that EVfEL does not stop the abuse of democracy it marginally lessens it.
PS And who exactly in the Tory leadership are talking about EVfEL being a stepping stone to something better. Not Cameron to my knowledge...
Danny Blanchflower @D_Blanchflower 2h
"men who have been promise makers will not be promise breakers I will ensure that as a promise keeper that these promises will be upheld" GB
Only Brown could resolve to fix a problem by creating four potentially more serious problems. The Union is nowhere near safe.....
Watched qualifying highlights. Still have no idea about a bet. Will peruse Ladbrokes and Betfair and see what presents itself.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/gordon-brown-scotland-yes-no-unite-common-future
PS And if you think linking to that propaganda comic for over-aged urban liberal infants (you know the one that runs at a horrendous loss every year) impresses me then you really are in cloud cuckoo land.
I think there is still some movement to come, but probably not until quite well into the new year and probably not to Labour's advantage. Perhaps the fixed term means that even fewer people than previously pay any attention to politics when they don't have to.
So how exactly is a failed politician languishing on the back benches going to force the rest of Parliament and the Government to do his bidding. (And thats before we even get to the Lords)
The man is a complete fool.
Remember the end of the Lord Chancellor's song,
"And its daylight at last
And the night has been long,
Ditto, ditto my song;
And thank goodness they are both of them over"
Just ask SNP supporters.
Un spoofable.
I'm sure there will be some movement before May, but I think it will less than usual in the last 8 months. I've been active in politics for over 40 years and I've never met fewer "don't knows".
I don't doubt Brown's commitment but he is just mad to think that he can push this throughh by force of will.
It is also worth pointing out that no one even knows what is going to be offered as 'Devomax'. Certainly what the SNP and Yes are claiming it means (basically everything except Defence and Foreign affairs) is a very long way from what most people on here seem to think.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/updated-full-list-of-lib-dems-standing-in-our-held-seats-and-top-50-targets-6-42441.html
I'm giving a piece of credit to Brown and I've never voted Labour and probably never will.
Yes, it was good. In hindsight we can probably agree the Union was safe by that point, but it was a very effective campaign speech.
Cameron really is a fecking useless politician without a strategic bone in his body. Do sod all, plan sod all until the problem hits you smack in the face and then wing it is a viable modus operandi for an undergraduate or even a junior manager who never wants to be promoted but at the top level it really isn't good enough.
Muddling through just won't be enough anymore......