and also, as Steve Richards pointed out yesterday, it is often hard to be absolutely clear that a Bill applies precisely to England alone. He offers examples in public service reform.
Iain Dale @IainDale 6m Someone needs to remind Gordon Brown he isn't Prime Minister any longer. He's got a bloody cheek trying to dictate devolution timetable.
Jonathan Calder @lordbonkers 5m @IainDale I suspect he has realised the party leaders are all too weak to stop him
Well I said I did not think it would be agreeable. As for the seats - The Unionists were not Tories but yes of course they did take the whip. Mainland parties were not really involved though in NI and that is one reason I suggest why the situation was acceptable. As you say 12 seats were not important but the point was there should have been more. But it was really happy on all sides to keep NI at arms length - until it was too late.
The other question to ask is... just what do Scottish MPs do? They have virtually no justifiable constituency work and very little justifiable voting to do. They may well speak to a constituent on a Welfare matter but if they do they are totally wasting the public purse because that role is already paid for in the wages of the local MSP. Lets face it that's the whole point of devolution.
Welfare, in the sense of dealing with the DWP, is most definitely not devolved. As is much else.
Have a shufti at these documents - for the general public -
"What can an MSP help me with? MSPs can assist if you have concerns about a devolved matter such as: • health • education • justice • police and fire services • housing • environment. [...]
Your MP can assist you if you have concerns about a reserved matter such as: • benefits and social security • immigration • defence • foreign policy • employment • trade and industry."
Obviously, there is a bit of give and take and some redirection may be needed, but that is pretty clear and up front.
I say, steady on, Carnyx. That is a bit strong. He was hardly a warlord, being the rightfully and lawfully crowned King of England and his policies were hardly extreme in the context of the time. Just because your lot got thumped is no reason for revisionist abuse.
Perfectly correct about revisionism! But I'm not writing a peer-reviewed journal article (or so that is my excuse ...!).
Isn't the easiest solution to just abolish the glorified parish councils in Belfast, Edinburgh and Cardiff and have full Anschluss between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Well under that scenario there might well be a valid reason for some broader 'federalisation' of the UK. Split Scotland into two and England in to about 10. But in truth its not something I would really like. I'd settle for the local govt we already have working properly. I don't see bigging up the bunch of people politicians and institutions we have already any solution to anything.
At the risk of being boring - the real issue is resolving the WLQ given we will have more Scottish devolution. That does not require tearing up the local govt map of England.
Re: tuition fees. It is not true that the introduction of tuition fees did not affect the constituents of Scottish MPs. It did not affect Scottish UNIVERSITIES. Any Scottish student attending English universities still had to pay the fees.
A Scottish Parliament with control over income (and possibly a few other) taxes would have a marginal effect on UK economic and fiscal policy. An English Parliament with the same powers would have the ability to undermine the entire fiscal stance of the UK (Westminster) government.
I say, steady on, Carnyx. That is a bit strong. He was hardly a warlord, being the rightfully and lawfully crowned King of England and his policies were hardly extreme in the context of the time. Just because your lot got thumped is no reason for revisionist abuse.
In retrospect it was a mistake for the Scots to ask Longshanks to adjudicate over the succession! And become the rightful overlord of Scotland as a result.
I say, steady on, Carnyx. That is a bit strong. He was hardly a warlord, being the rightfully and lawfully crowned King of England and his policies were hardly extreme in the context of the time. Just because your lot got thumped is no reason for revisionist abuse.
In retrospect it was a mistake for the Scots to ask Longshanks to adjudicate over the succession! And become the rightful overlord of Scotland as a result.
It was also bad form of him to take ten years to do so. A more subtle operator would have moved much more quickly to back a supportive but credible candidate.
What is the Lib Dems official position on more devolution to England ?
Also were Lib Dem cabinet members informed of Camerons proposals and time-scales?
Why should they be? The PM can speak his mind and if the LDs want to block resolving an injustice to England then they can go ahead and do it. Likewise Labour. lts not forget the tories do not have a majority. People in england might ponder that come next May. This issue is not something that should bother Scotland. I seem to recall that SNP MPs did not vote on english matters anyway.
Brown lives in his own fantasy world..no one has the guts to tell him ..very sad.
Well you will have to thank Cameron for Brown setting the pace for devomax to Scotland. Cameron blocked Brown leading the NO independence campaign, when no devomax was on the table. Then after the YES poll leads Cameron thought he might be the PM losing the union, so he backed a timetable for devomax that Brown had put forward.
Cameron can't go back on what he promised Scotland and will go along with the devomax. The difficulty will be getting Tory backbenchers to agree to it, while EV4EL is not likely to be implemented.
I am not sure that if the Tories had a majority that they would be passing legislation for EV4EL, as this has been looked into before. They can't do it, unless they overide the rules that govern parliament. If they tried to do this, they could well be blocked in the HOL and if they applied the parliament act, it could be subject to challenge in the Supreme court.
The problem with this solution is that it just gives a grievance to both sides. England gets fed up because the Scots are still influencing domestic English issues. Scotland gets fed up as they feel less represented at Westminster.
It's about time we got rid of the hodge-podge as it just breeds resentment. We need a symmetrical system with the same powers for the four home nations.
Scots wouldn't feel aggrieved if the quid pro quo of the reduction was full Devo-max.
To be fair, we cannot say that. Some voted No because they wanted Devomax, some voted No for the status quo and there are probably some bitter enders who want the Holyrood parliament closed. We do not know the proportions of each.
IIRC the opinion polling at the time of the Edinburgh agreement 2 years back was something like
- bit under a third for indy - bit more than a third for devomax i th semse of FFA or a proper federal solution (not the thing on offer/promise, at least just now anyway) - about a third for the status quo of the devolution settlement of 1999
Minimal support for the Tam Dalyell solution of abolition of the Parliament - which would have caused another mess because of the distinct Scottish legal and educational systems for a start (e.g. consider Tory control of Scottish laws, mitigated only partly by LD alliance).
The Scottish Pmt is very popular, partly because it gives most Scots an airing which they would not get under Tory or even Tory + LD rule, and partly because of its obvious (if stil too gerrymandered) democratic legitimacy. And even the Tories (rightly) get a fair share.
Opinion polls are not always accurate, as we found out Thursday!
They weren't that inaccurate last week!
What was Rod Crosby's "prediction" after Clackmannanshire results were announced ?
Yes 50.6 : No 49.4
Apparently, it was according to the Lost & Nowhere Model !
A Scottish Parliament with control over income (and possibly a few other) taxes would have a marginal effect on UK economic and fiscal policy. An English Parliament with the same powers would have the ability to undermine the entire fiscal stance of the UK (Westminster) government.
This is the point. And its a good reason why devolved powers need to be carefully thought through, not rushed as Brown suggests (and suggests in his own self interest). A central govt charged with economic management must surely keep to itself the broad control of tax and spend policy.
Brown lives in his own fantasy world..no one has the guts to tell him ..very sad.
Well you will have to thank Cameron for Brown setting the pace for devomax to Scotland. Cameron blocked Brown leading the NO independence campaign, when no devomax was on the table. Then after the YES poll leads Cameron thought he might be the PM losing the union, so he backed a timetable for devomax that Brown had put forward.
Cameron can't go back on what he promised Scotland and will go along with the devomax. The difficulty will be getting Tory backbenchers to agree to it, while EV4EL is not likely to be implemented.
I am not sure that if the Tories had a majority that they would be passing legislation for EV4EL, as this has been looked into before. They can't do it, unless they overide the rules that govern parliament. If they tried to do this, they could well be blocked in the HOL and if they applied the parliament act, it could be subject to challenge in the Supreme court.
Parliament sets the rules that govern itself. It's not a question of overriding them, it's a question of changing them. I'm not aware of the previous time it was looked into but my guess from the comment is that it wasn't legislation that was proposed but simply parliamentary convention.
The HoL could indeed block the Bill before the election, particularly with less than a year of the parliament left, so no opportunity to use the Parliament Act. If it did so, it might find its life expectancy severely shortened as such a move would come after support had been given in the Commons and would also block promises made to those in Scotland.
Re: tuition fees. It is not true that the introduction of tuition fees did not affect the constituents of Scottish MPs. It did not affect Scottish UNIVERSITIES. Any Scottish student attending English universities still had to pay the fees.
Scottish students attend European and US Universities but do not expect to get to vote in their parliaments.
Cameron can't go back on what he promised Scotland and will go along with the devomax.
Devomax has got to get through the house of commons, where there are 300 almost exclusively English conservative MPs.
Gordon Brown and David Cameron can huff and puff all they like. Without immediate reciprocal arrangements for England, devomax ain't gonna happen. It is dead in the water.
The truth is that all constitutional arrangements within the UK have unfairness. Fundamentally, the UK is 'unfair' to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland because England are so dominant having 85% of the population. Such a situation can never truly be a partnership of equals unless English dominance were removed by artificially breaking it up into signficantly smaller political units. This is why throughout history there have been various compensating adjustments to mitigate this basic 'unfairness', such as disproportionate numbers of MPs and disproportionate shares of tax revenues. Devolution is just the latest solution to make the smaller nations think they have some local say in the political decisions that affect them.
Those who get obsessively worked up about the unfairness to England created by elements of this latest constitutional arrangement fail to acknowledge the fact that the UK is basically biased towards England in the first place. English power is absolute. If "England" really wants something, then England gets it, that is just the reality of having 85% of the population. As confirmed by the tiny number of occasions since devolution when Scottish MPs have made a difference.
A referendum on weakening Scottish/Welsh influence at Westminster would by no means be sure to pass or even come close. More than half the population are i imagine quite relaxed about there being a constitutional anomaly which currently restrains Tory power at Westminster.
What is the Lib Dems official position on more devolution to England ?
Also were Lib Dem cabinet members informed of Camerons proposals and time-scales?
Why should they be? The PM can speak his mind and if the LDs want to block resolving an injustice to England then they can go ahead and do it. Likewise Labour. lts not forget the tories do not have a majority. People in england might ponder that come next May. This issue is not something that should bother Scotland. I seem to recall that SNP MPs did not vote on english matters anyway.
The problem is that Mr Cameron speaks sometimes as Prime Minister, and sometime as Leader of the Conservative Party. He does not always distinguish in which capacity he is speaking.
If he is speaking as Leader of the Conservatives, there is no way he can expect the Lib Dems to fall into line behind him - not without prior consultation - and he will probably have difficulty in getting the Tory MPs to follow him anyway. As a leader, he is pretty weak, isn´t he?
What is the Lib Dems official position on more devolution to England ?
Also were Lib Dem cabinet members informed of Camerons proposals and time-scales?
Why should they be? The PM can speak his mind and if the LDs want to block resolving an injustice to England then they can go ahead and do it. Likewise Labour. lts not forget the tories do not have a majority. People in england might ponder that come next May. This issue is not something that should bother Scotland. I seem to recall that SNP MPs did not vote on english matters anyway.
The problem is that Mr Cameron speaks sometimes as Prime Minister, and sometime as Leader of the Conservative Party. He does not always distinguish in which capacity he is speaking.
If he is speaking as Leader of the Conservatives, there is no way he can expect the Lib Dems to fall into line behind him - not without prior consultation - and he will probably have difficulty in getting the Tory MPs to follow him anyway. As a leader, he is pretty weak, isn´t he?
To make the infamous Vow in the first place, Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg effectively used that precise distinction to evade the spirit (and possibly the letter, though LiaMT would think not) of the Edinburgh Agreement's referendum purdah provision. It's not a trivial distinction, as you rightly note.
Brown lives in his own fantasy world..no one has the guts to tell him ..very sad.
A fantasy world in which Brown was the only senior politician making the positive case for the union. A fantasy world in which he secured government agreement for more devolved powers. A fantasy world in which his great clunking fist KO'd Alex Salmond.
Cameron can't go back on what he promised Scotland and will go along with the devomax.
Devomax has got to get through the house of commons, where there are 300 almost exclusively English conservative MPs.
Gordon Brown and David Cameron can huff and puff all they like. Without immediate reciprocal arrangements for England, devomax ain't gonna happen. It is dead in the water.
You assume that the 300 tory MPs will undermine their leader. A few of the usual suspects will do so, but many will back Cameron.
The new powers will pass, the issue is when and with what other consequences.
What is the Lib Dems official position on more devolution to England ?
Also were Lib Dem cabinet members informed of Camerons proposals and time-scales?
Why should they be? The PM can speak his mind and if the LDs want to block resolving an injustice to England then they can go ahead and do it. Likewise Labour. lts not forget the tories do not have a majority. People in england might ponder that come next May. This issue is not something that should bother Scotland. I seem to recall that SNP MPs did not vote on english matters anyway.
The problem is that Mr Cameron speaks sometimes as Prime Minister, and sometime as Leader of the Conservative Party. He does not always distinguish in which capacity he is speaking.
If he is speaking as Leader of the Conservatives, there is no way he can expect the Lib Dems to fall into line behind him - not without prior consultation - and he will probably have difficulty in getting the Tory MPs to follow him anyway. As a leader, he is pretty weak, isn´t he?
On Friday morning he was surely speaking as the Prime Minister of the United kingdom outside Downing Street.
So we’ve gone from: “The Scots vote to stay in the union and the response is to make their 59 MPs second class ones?” to The Scots vote to stay in the union and the response is to cull their 59 MPs?” And this is an improvement?
Cameron can't go back on what he promised Scotland and will go along with the devomax.
Devomax has got to get through the house of commons, where there are 300 almost exclusively English conservative MPs.
Gordon Brown and David Cameron can huff and puff all they like. Without immediate reciprocal arrangements for England, devomax ain't gonna happen. It is dead in the water.
You assume that the 300 tory MPs will undermine their leader. A few of the usual suspects will do so, but many will back Cameron.
The new powers will pass, the issue is when and with what other consequences.
It would be perfectly possible to introduce a bill giving new powers to Scotland, fulfilling the terms of the agreement, which Scotland would not be happy with and reject. Particularly where they involve tax raising powers in return for dimunition of current funding advantages.
This govt are of course well practised in this - claiming to have devolved significant powers to English local authorities whilst simultaneously cutting their central Govt grants so significantly as to render these powers effectively unusable.
EVEL should be combined with devolution of powers over domestic policy and tax to English city and county councils. Voters should also have referendums to see if they want regional assemblies and regional government like Scotland, Wales and London now have, the South East, West Midlands, Yorkshire and North West are bigger than Scotland. I know the NE had a referendum and rejected them but that was before Devoxmax. If they reject them fine, but they should have the choice
Of course the Tory backbenchers cannot block devomax, the Tory Party as a whole does not even have a majority at Westminster (including Cameron and ministers who will vote for devomax on collective responsibility grounds) let alone Tory backbenchers. The votes combined of Labour, LDs, Green and Respect, Tory frontbenchers and nationalists will ensure devomax passes fairly easily
A fantasy world in which he secured government agreement for more devolved powers.
Brown talks as if he can personally deliver devomax to Scotland before 2015.
That is an absurd notion. He can't. And he won't.
And i think Cameron has already confirmed that it won't happen. At best the pledge is apparently to have a second reading of a Devolution Bill. A second reading of a bill is not the same as passing legislation. Salmond's resignation statement confirmed that Cameron believes that introducing such a bill is "pointless", and would be nothing more than a gesture since it would have no chance of passing before the election.
Cameron can't go back on what he promised Scotland and will go along with the devomax. Devomax has got to get through the house of commons, where there are 300 almost exclusively English conservative MPs. Gordon Brown and David Cameron can huff and puff all they like. Without immediate reciprocal arrangements for England, devomax ain't gonna happen. It is dead in the water.
That is what it should be. The Union cannot continue unless the Vow is fulfilled. I therefore believe that Conservative MPs will ensure it happens on a point of fundamental principle. It was a campaign pledge, no matter how ill-advised and hasty it was made. What is unclear is how many Labour and LD MPs care about fairness for England. Voting against that could prove dangerous for English Labour and LD MPs in marginals.
Yes Ydoether - and I'm being a bit previous about welfare -- but there are a wide range of issues that Scots MPs do not deal with and that is going to get wider.
A fantasy world in which he secured government agreement for more devolved powers. Brown talks as if he can personally deliver devomax to Scotland before 2015. That is an absurd notion. He can't. And he won't.
Has a rather strange understanding of reality. Now why am I not surprised?
Oh dear an even worse fudge than the Tory one (at least the Tory one recognises the principle of English self-determination in some small way) Lets not forget that even if they halved the number of Scottish MPs (terribly unfair on Scotland when voting on critical issues to the Home nations like the UK Budgets, Foreign Policy, Defence and Immigration which are not devolved) there would still be 88 non English MP's voting through English legislation. It actually gives English MPs more power to control what budgets are provided to the other Home nations. Precedent or not its an insult to English and Scottish voters alike:
Until such time as England can elect English representatives who without interference of any sort from the other three Home nations are able to define their own agenda and policies for the devolved areas and allocate resources to those functions and managing their own budget then England will not have equality.
Without English Rule for English Legislation Westminster will be continuing to treat the English electorate with contempt.
As for the mutterings from, Labour of butchering England for their own self-serving purposes that is a recipe for destroying not just the Union but England also. How long would it be before the political fault line of the Humber-Severn becomes the border of a potential breakaway English movement. Why wouldn't the cashcow regions of the south (along with the East Midlands) follow Scotland down the independence route when its clear how Labour disregard them. In 2010 Labour polled less in the southern region outside London than the Tories did in Scotland. Now if they breakaway how long before the centre of Wealth in London follows and even perhaps the West Midlands and Yorkshire
As potentially awkward for Westminster as it is there is only one equitable solution for England and that is an English Parliament based on the current constituency approach.
Brown lives in his own fantasy world..no one has the guts to tell him ..very sad.
A fantasy world in which Brown was the only senior politician making the positive case for the union. A fantasy world in which he secured government agreement for more devolved powers. A fantasy world in which his great clunking fist KO'd Alex Salmond.
Actually a fantasy world that may fall apart if the fag packet proposals fall apart under democratic scrutiny leading to an early 2nd scottish referendum.
Of course the Tory backbenchers cannot block devomax, the Tory Party as a whole does not even have a majority at Westminster (including Cameron and ministers who will vote for devomax on collective responsibility grounds) let alone Tory backbenchers. The votes combined of Labour, LDs, Green and Respect, Tory frontbenchers and nationalists will ensure devomax passes fairly easily
Only if a Bill is put before them, which it won't this side of a GE.
Of course the Tory backbenchers cannot block devomax, the Tory Party as a whole does not even have a majority at Westminster (including Cameron and ministers who will vote for devomax on collective responsibility grounds) let alone Tory backbenchers. The votes combined of Labour, LDs, Green and Respect, Tory frontbenchers and nationalists will ensure devomax passes fairly easily
And the govt will not introduce the bill without reciprocal arrangements for England, would it? There is no particular problem with devomax in its principle, its just that Labour will not vote for EV4EL. A tory govt would give both - after 2015.
The proposal to reduce the number of Scottish MPs is not a proper answer to the question. Those remaining would still be able to vote on English matters which are devolved in Scotland. Let's talk about fairness!
Brown lives in his own fantasy world..no one has the guts to tell him ..very sad.
A fantasy world in which Brown was the only senior politician making the positive case for the union. A fantasy world in which he secured government agreement for more devolved powers. A fantasy world in which his great clunking fist KO'd Alex Salmond.
Actually a fantasy world that may fall apart if the fag packet proposals fall apart under democratic scrutiny leading to an early 2nd scottish referendum.
Indeed given that the Scottish people have now been consulted three times on such issues (1979, 1997 & 2015) it would seem inconsistent and rather strange particularly from the SNP if they did not offer the Scottish people a referendum on the acceptance of Devomax or independence (in the same way as Cameron is offering the UK a referendum on a mooted renegotiated deal with the EU)
I think the 59 Scots MPs ought to be cut. Every one of them. Ditto Cardiff and NI.
Then expect the MSPs to take part in a UK wide Commons part time. If necessary cut some MSPs to make it match.
Eng MPs can then be an Eng body, and we have symmetry.
Then we have removed the issue of different votes for different bodies, and brought the Scottish anti-Eng types into UK debates.
The Edinburgh, Cardiff and NI bodies need a *major* review anyway; it is not OK that Mr Eck managed to suborn his Civik Service for party purposes.
Scottish parties - Tories and SNP - that suffer under fptp may then get to Westminster in appropriate numbers. The Tory and SNP voters deserve representation, and in the case of the SNP it may break them out of their unending narcissistic victim narratives.
I think the 59 Scots MPs ought to be cut. Every one of them. Ditto Cardiff and NI.
Then expect the MSPs to take part in a UK wide Commons part time. If necessary cut some MSPs to make it match.
Eng MPs can then be an Eng body, and we have symmetry.
Then we have removed the issue of different votes for different bodies, and brought the Scottish anti-Eng types into UK debates.
The Edinburgh, Cardiff and NI bodies need a *major* review anyway; it is not OK that Mr Eck managed to suborn his Civik Service for party purposes.
Scottish parties - Tories and SNP - that suffer under fptp may then get to Westminster in appropriate numbers. The Tory and SNP voters deserve representation, and in the case of the SNP it may break them out of their unending narcissistic victim narratives.
Peers in the House of Lords from the Home Nations (Steele, Kinnock, Martin etc) would have to be removed as well.
I don't see it as a solution. Why should the Scots have less influence on UK wide matters and any influence on domestic English issues when English MPs don't have any influence on Scottish matters?
For years Scots had MORE MPs than they were strictly entitled to. But as I have said I doubt it would be agreed to.
I do think all this wittering on about English devolution is a waste of time and space and misses the point. The anomaly is Scottish MPS voting on english matters which are denied them in their own constituencies. For the most part they have nothing to do. It is quite disgraceful that all they do is vote on English matters.
That's a remarkable statement. We all know about the two (in separate years) tuition fees votes and the NHS one, and i will give you those very happily. But that's three in a decade or so. Now, apart from that, is your statement really the case?
1. SNP and (sometimes at least) the Tory and some LDs don't vote on English matters, so they don't fall under your condemnation. 2. There are other votes which do pertain to the UK as a whole. Syrian crisis, for instance.
and also, as Steve Richards pointed out yesterday, it is often hard to be absolutely clear that a Bill applies precisely to England alone. He offers examples in public service reform.
And he is talking garbage. If that were the case then there would be no devolution. We already decide which are devolved matters and as such can use that as the guide for what should be "English only".
All these straw man arguments just show how desperate Labour are to torpedo any EV4EL changes.
EVEL should be combined with devolution of powers over domestic policy and tax to English city and county councils. Voters should also have referendums to see if they want regional assemblies and regional government like Scotland, Wales and London now have, the South East, West Midlands, Yorkshire and North West are bigger than Scotland. I know the NE had a referendum and rejected them but that was before Devoxmax. If they reject them fine, but they should have the choice
Utterly unnecessary. Devolution has been on a country by country basis and I see no reason why we should change that for England.
EV4EL coupled with Devo-MAX looks to have the momentum and of course it seriously changes the status quo.
It is no good arguing Scottish MPs are already 2nd class. This misses the point that this change will radically reduce their powers making them close to an irrelevance. It will then be difficult to justify their salaries and the best Scottish talent will stay in Scotland.
What's more EV4EL will create a de facto English parliament. Nobody is seriously arguing for a near replica set of MPs. Nor have I heard many arguments for a separate excecutive.
I think there has to be one person who is simulatenously prime minister of the UK and 1st minister of England. And that person would have to be the leader of the party that wins England regardless of whether the same party also has a UK majoirty. Such a situation may well be unacceptable to Scots and result in separation.
Have I just slept through the last 4 years and woken up to the nightmare of Gordon Brown still being in charge?
The way he is going around and the media is reporting it, anybody would think he is in charge of England AND Scotland, rather than Cameron and Salmond. He's not even in the shadow cabinet, but appears to be setting out what the UK government position is.
Of course the Tory backbenchers cannot block devomax, the Tory Party as a whole does not even have a majority at Westminster (including Cameron and ministers who will vote for devomax on collective responsibility grounds) let alone Tory backbenchers. The votes combined of Labour, LDs, Green and Respect, Tory frontbenchers and nationalists will ensure devomax passes fairly easily
And the govt will not introduce the bill without reciprocal arrangements for England, would it? There is no particular problem with devomax in its principle, its just that Labour will not vote for EV4EL. A tory govt would give both - after 2015.
Propose a bill that does both devomax and EVFEL, let it be debated and amended as nessecary.
It may not pass, and the awkward squad may be difficult either side. It will however air the issues and smoke out the positions of the various parties. They may even come up with a workable solution!
Excuse my naivity, but isn't that what Parliament is for?
EV4EL coupled with Devo-MAX looks to have the momentum and of course it seriously changes the status quo.
It is no good arguing Scottish MPs are already 2nd class. This misses the point that this change will radically reduce their powers making them close to an irrelevance. It will then be difficult to justify their salaries and the best Scottish talent will stay in Scotland.
What's more EV4EL will create a de facto English parliament. Nobody is seriously arguing for a near replica set of MPs. Nor have I heard many arguments for a separate excecutive.
I think there has to be one person who is simulatenously prime minister of the UK and 1st minister of England. And that person would have to be the leader of the party that wins England regardless of whether the same party also has a UK majoirty. Such a situation may well be unacceptable to Scots and result in separation.
This misses the point that this change will radically reduce their powers making them close to an irrelevance
Not if you stuff the Ministerial payroll vote full of Home Nation MPs. They get their say behind closed doors. You don't even then know what they are up to.
I am a committed regionalist for England..In fact,local government in the '90s worked it all up to move some powers from the existing counties and as much as we could get from central government-it is probably wise to leave our nuclear deterrent and other defence matters as part of the UK.I have known council leaders to want to nuke a neighbouring authority.It would not end well. As far as NI is concerned this Gerry Adams response to the Scottish referendum result gives some clues as to their position.Full control of welfare policies,as with Scotland,is a central plank.They are resisting the social experiment on humanity of the Mengle inspired Tories like IDS.http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/31501
Have I just slept through the last 4 years and woken up to the nightmare of Gordon Brown still being in charge?
The way he is going around and the media is reporting it, anybody would think he is in charge of England AND Scotland, rather than Cameron and Salmond. He's not even in the shadow cabinet, but appears to be setting out what the UK government position is.
Because he's delusional and Ed, is terrified of telling him to STFU.
EV4EL coupled with Devo-MAX looks to have the momentum and of course it seriously changes the status quo.
It is no good arguing Scottish MPs are already 2nd class. This misses the point that this change will radically reduce their powers making them close to an irrelevance. It will then be difficult to justify their salaries and the best Scottish talent will stay in Scotland.
What's more EV4EL will create a de facto English parliament. Nobody is seriously arguing for a near replica set of MPs. Nor have I heard many arguments for a separate excecutive.
I think there has to be one person who is simulatenously prime minister of the UK and 1st minister of England. And that person would have to be the leader of the party that wins England regardless of whether the same party also has a UK majoirty. Such a situation may well be unacceptable to Scots and result in separation.
EV4EL coupled with Devo-MAX looks to have the momentum and of course it seriously changes the status quo.
It is no good arguing Scottish MPs are already 2nd class. This misses the point that this change will radically reduce their powers making them close to an irrelevance. It will then be difficult to justify their salaries and the best Scottish talent will stay in Scotland.
What's more EV4EL will create a de facto English parliament. Nobody is seriously arguing for a near replica set of MPs. Nor have I heard many arguments for a separate excecutive.
I think there has to be one person who is simulatenously prime minister of the UK and 1st minister of England. And that person would have to be the leader of the party that wins England regardless of whether the same party also has a UK majoirty. Such a situation may well be unacceptable to Scots and result in separation.
I don't see what you are driving at at all with all that. More devolution for Scotland means less for Scottish MPs to do and widens the unfairness that is current. Why should resolving that unfairness harm the union. Can anyone explain why (in reality) Scottish Labour MPs want to rule on issues in England which they have no authority on in Scotland?
I think the 59 Scots MPs ought to be cut. Every one of them. Ditto Cardiff and NI.
Then expect the MSPs to take part in a UK wide Commons part time. If necessary cut some MSPs to make it match.
Eng MPs can then be an Eng body, and we have symmetry.
Then we have removed the issue of different votes for different bodies, and brought the Scottish anti-Eng types into UK debates.
The Edinburgh, Cardiff and NI bodies need a *major* review anyway; it is not OK that Mr Eck managed to suborn his Civik Service for party purposes.
Scottish parties - Tories and SNP - that suffer under fptp may then get to Westminster in appropriate numbers. The Tory and SNP voters deserve representation, and in the case of the SNP it may break them out of their unending narcissistic victim narratives.
Peers in the House of Lords from the Home Nations (Steele, Kinnock, Martin etc) would have to be removed as well.
Thinking about the Upper House.
I have a soft spot for it due to the contributions of experts and non-partisans, but it's been undermined by superannuated oafs being thrown up from the Commons since Tony. It is far better and more thinking than the Commons, even now.
We need to keep some features of the Upper House.
I was thinking about 2 per county as per the Yanks, with 'experts' having speaking but not voting rights.
Have I just slept through the last 4 years and woken up to the nightmare of Gordon Brown still being in charge?
The way he is going around and the media is reporting it, anybody would think he is in charge of England AND Scotland, rather than Cameron and Salmond. He's not even in the shadow cabinet, but appears to be setting out what the UK government position is.
Because he's delusional and Ed, is terrified of telling him to STFU.
Is this not quite a dangerous game for Cameron and to some extent Miliband, that he is making all these promises, which it is likely wont be kept. Are they not letting the debate being forced by a delusional mad man, rather than a more calming sensible individual like Darling (or better themselves).
What's more EV4EL will create a de facto English parliament. Nobody is seriously arguing for a near replica set of MPs. Nor have I heard many arguments for a separate excecutive.
No it doesn't. What it does is allow English MPs to alter and reject legislation. It does not give them the power to define and allocate budgets for devolved areas or indeed define the agendas or originate policies for those devolved areas. It also does not stop their amendments on devolved areas being thrown out by the Home Nations peers in the House Of Lords.
Its a weak fudge which at best allows them to block legislation. Nothing else! Effectively it will replicate the sort of Scenario one sees every year in Washington with the US budget. As a result of that dysfunctional mess the US Government and Legisalture are held in ever greater contempt. Undermining Westminster is hardly the way forward
Now Gordon is back in town he can demolish the Tory lies about the cause of the economic crash and become a well-respected asset in GE2015.He has emerged stronger than ever from the wilderness.He saved the world and saved the union.Is Gordon the new Moses?
Now Gordon is back in town he can demolish the Tory lies about the cause of the economic crash and become a well-respected asset in GE2015.He has emerged stronger than ever from the wilderness.He saved the world and saved the union.Is Gordon the new Moses?
AxelCable Why? Westminster elections would be decided solely on FP and tax in Scotland under Devomax and EVEL, so the Scots would be electing the best choice for them on those issues only, domestic policy would be decided almost entirely by a Scot at Holyrood.
One thing that's struck me about indyref, and it doesn't bode well for Labour, is how well fear and scaremongering actually worked.
The nastiness of CyberUnionists is a case in point. Even today I, and the site owner, were trolled pretty badly on a pro-independence blog. Even though I supported No, and even though the vote is done.
I'm sure no-one here was responsible. As we know, PBTories are respectable, calm, rational and civilised. As Tim could confirm.
Of course there would still be nothing to stop a Scot being UK PM, though they would be less interested in doing so. Personally EVEL, Devomax, more powers to English councils and maybe regional assemblies is the best way forward
I've been having a muse on this and there aren't any easy answers.
I'm moving in my mind toward an English Parliament (though perhaps Assembly might be a better word) though not without several qualms. I'm a firm believer in devolution but more about repatriating powers from Westminster to existing local authorities than any nonsense about Regional Assemblies and the like.
I'm also concerned about an additional layer of bureaucracy - I also wonder if such an English Assembly couldn't involve Council leaders as well as MPs and create linkage between local Councils and the Parliament/Assembly.
Thinking aloud, you'd have Westminster MPs and Assembly members (which could duplicate I suppose) as well as a tranche of Council leaders and this would allow legislation to be considered within the context of its impact on local services.
I don't see what you are driving at at all with all that. More devolution for Scotland means less for Scottish MPs to do and widens the unfairness that is current. Why should resolving that unfairness harm the union. Can anyone explain why (in reality) Scottish Labour MPs want to rule on issues in England which they have no authority on in Scotland?
I am just following the journey and the likely consequences of each step. Yes devo-max would increase unfairness unless EV4EL is introduced which in turn makes Scottish MPs an irrelevance which results in a de facto English parliament which needs to headed up by whoever wins England which is probably unpaletable to Scots which leads to separation down the line.
Have I just slept through the last 4 years and woken up to the nightmare of Gordon Brown still being in charge?
The way he is going around and the media is reporting it, anybody would think he is in charge of England AND Scotland, rather than Cameron and Salmond. He's not even in the shadow cabinet, but appears to be setting out what the UK government position is.
Because he's delusional and Ed, is terrified of telling him to STFU.
Is this not quite a dangerous game for Cameron and to some extent Miliband, that he is making all these promises, which it is likely wont be kept. Are they not letting the debate being forced by a delusional mad man, rather than a more calming sensible individual like Darling (or better themselves).
Why do so many Western democracies remain so wary of letting the 16-18 year group near a ballot box? Salmond seemed to think that being 'progressive' on this issue was nothing to do with low calculations re their support for his cause, likewise Miliband and some LDs.
The Union cannot continue unless the Vow is fulfilled. Cameron would offer devomax for Scotland tomorrow if he could get EV4EL in return tomorrow. Why can't he?? Labour. And that is what he will say to Scotland. What will labour say?
What is the Vow? It could be said to already have been broken. "‘The Scottish Parliament is permanent and extensive new powers for the Parliament will be delivered by the process and to the timetable agreed and announced by our three parties, starting on 19th September.’" Timetable agreed and announced... starting on 19th. So Clegg said nothing on 19th, Cameron says "EV4EL" on 19th and Miliband says he wants a committee..... PS - The SNP have just announced that the timetable is already broken, I agree.
2nd Scottish independence referendum in 2015? Slate of 40+ SNP MPs elected at GE 2015?
Now Gordon is back in town he can demolish the Tory lies about the cause of the economic crash and become a well-respected asset in GE2015.He has emerged stronger than ever from the wilderness.He saved the world and saved the union.Is Gordon the new Moses?
At the very least, he can bring back cash in hand expenses for shared cleaners, having the state help build his wife's property portfolio and having it pay for his ironing and window cleaning.
I think the 59 Scots MPs ought to be cut. Every one of them. Ditto Cardiff and NI.
Then expect the MSPs to take part in a UK wide Commons part time. If necessary cut some MSPs to make it match.
Eng MPs can then be an Eng body, and we have symmetry.
Then we have removed the issue of different votes for different bodies, and brought the Scottish anti-Eng types into UK debates.
The Edinburgh, Cardiff and NI bodies need a *major* review anyway; it is not OK that Mr Eck managed to suborn his Civik Service for party purposes.
Scottish parties - Tories and SNP - that suffer under fptp may then get to Westminster in appropriate numbers. The Tory and SNP voters deserve representation, and in the case of the SNP it may break them out of their unending narcissistic victim narratives.
Peers in the House of Lords from the Home Nations (Steele, Kinnock, Martin etc) would have to be removed as well.
Thinking about the Upper House.
I have a soft spot for it due to the contributions of experts and non-partisans, but it's been undermined by superannuated oafs being thrown up from the Commons since Tony. It is far better and more thinking than the Commons, even now.
We need to keep some features of the Upper House.
I was thinking about 2 per county as per the Yanks, with 'experts' having speaking but not voting rights.
MW
A Federal Government would still need two houses I would agree. I threw out an idea (to some criticism) that in the Federal structure (with subordinate Parliaments in all 4 home nations) the two houses could only require 300 to 400 representatives say (I perceive equal devolution would offer the opportunity of a radical cut in numbers at Union level) in total. How they would be made up I hadn't thought about particularly but something along those lines (counties/municipalities/regions* perhaps) would probably be what was needed
TCPB There will not be another referendum on independence until at least 2030, if at all, though the constitutional debates will continue for a few years at least the conversation is now happening. An EU referendum in 2017 is more likely to be the next referendum vote if Cameron is returned as PM
Now Gordon is back in town he can demolish the Tory lies about the cause of the economic crash and become a well-respected asset in GE2015.He has emerged stronger than ever from the wilderness.He saved the world and saved the union.Is Gordon the new Moses?
Now Gordon is back in town he can demolish the Tory lies about the cause of the economic crash and become a well-respected asset in GE2015.He has emerged stronger than ever from the wilderness.He saved the world and saved the union.Is Gordon the new Moses?
am just following the journey and the likely consequences of each step. Yes devo-max would increase unfairness unless EV4EL is introduced which in turn makes Scottish MPs an irrelevance which results in a de facto English parliament which needs to headed up by whoever wins England which is probably unpaletable to Scots which leads to separation down the line.
I don;t agree that Scots would want to leave the union simply because they don;t like the result in Westminster.
Have I just slept through the last 4 years and woken up to the nightmare of Gordon Brown still being in charge?
The way he is going around and the media is reporting it, anybody would think he is in charge of England AND Scotland, rather than Cameron and Salmond. He's not even in the shadow cabinet, but appears to be setting out what the UK government position is.
Because he's delusional and Ed, is terrified of telling him to STFU.
Is this not quite a dangerous game for Cameron and to some extent Miliband, that he is making all these promises, which it is likely wont be kept. Are they not letting the debate being forced by a delusional mad man, rather than a more calming sensible individual like Darling (or better themselves).
Why do so many Western democracies remain so wary of letting the 16-18 year group near a ballot box? Salmond seemed to think that being 'progressive' on this issue was nothing to do with low calculations re their support for his cause, likewise Miliband and some LDs.
Someone (I forget who) pointed out recently on PB that many a great democratic advance has been done for low calculations!
I think anything that helps at least some of us get used to voting early (depending on their birthday, admittedly) will help with democracy and involvement. The Scottish experiment will be very interesting. And I would still have said that (with just a little gritting of teeth) if they mostly voted No.
Now Gordon is back in town he can demolish the Tory lies about the cause of the economic crash and become a well-respected asset in GE2015.He has emerged stronger than ever from the wilderness.He saved the world and saved the union.Is Gordon the new Moses?
Tory lies such as 'No More Boom Or Bust' and 'British Jobs For British Workers'? How about 'Gulags for Slags'? That was a goody.
And should we have weekly mobile throwing ceremonies and a ritual for condemning little old ladies as bigots?
Next you'll be suggesting Sion Simon, John Prescott and Mick Martin should make comebacks too! Hey what about good ole Tone as well?
Mr Prescott did his best to help with Better Together, did you not hear? He tried slagging off the Tories and suggested merging the English and Scottish footie teams - 'Better Together' and all that - to try and get the Germans. (Might have worked, if all 22 were in the UK side ...).
Have I just slept through the last 4 years and woken up to the nightmare of Gordon Brown still being in charge?
The way he is going around and the media is reporting it, anybody would think he is in charge of England AND Scotland, rather than Cameron and Salmond. He's not even in the shadow cabinet, but appears to be setting out what the UK government position is.
Because he's delusional and Ed, is terrified of telling him to STFU.
In his own sad deluded mind I'm sure Gordon thinks he is in charge.
He can say whatever he wants. Cameron holds all the cards and any over promise or under delivery on Gordo's words simply hits Labour in Scotland.
What's more EV4EL will create a de facto English parliament. Nobody is seriously arguing for a near replica set of MPs. Nor have I heard many arguments for a separate excecutive.
No it doesn't. What it does is allow English MPs to alter and reject legislation. It does not give them the power to define and allocate budgets for devolved areas or indeed define the agendas or originate policies for those devolved areas. It also does not stop their amendments on devolved areas being thrown out by the Home Nations peers in the House Of Lords.
Its a weak fudge which at best allows them to block legislation. Nothing else! Effectively it will replicate the sort of Scenario one sees every year in Washington with the US budget. As a result of that dysfunctional mess the US Government and Legisalture are held in ever greater contempt. Undermining Westminster is hardly the way forward
Why should it not be blocked, if it is opposed by the majority of MPs in the area it is intended for?
No-one is suggesting that EVFEL is constitutional nirvana -what it is is a stop gap solution to prevent an abuse of democracy, that should have been in place as soon as devolution took effect, and should be in place now. Any frustrations and difficulties (if there are such) are spurs to work toward an eventual better solution.
TCPB There will not be another referendum on independence until at least 2030, if at all, though the constitutional debates will continue for a few years at least the conversation is now happening. An EU referendum in 2017 is more likely to be the next referendum vote if Cameron is returned as PM
The reason for Cameron calling the referendum was because he feared Salmond would hold his own. Whats to stop a future Scottish leader doing the same if they feel the Scottish people want it. Westminster opposing such a move just plays into the SNP's hands.
If Westminster obfuscate over / under deliver on Devomax and the Scottish people regret their referendum decision there is nothing to stop an SNP government holding their own referendum (granted not binding) and if that referendum came out 2 to 1 in favour of independence (Westminster having further blotted it copy book ) Westminster would have a major problem!
Now given that all three Westminster parties committed to Devomax and only the Tories are committed to an EU referendum and are 10 points or more short of the majority to deliver it, I would say at this moment another referendum in Scotland is more likely than a referendum on the EU and will be until Westminster delivers on Devomax.
MofK The Scots have voted by a double figure margin No in a recognised referendum, separatist movements hold unrecognised referendums on the continent, as in Venice recently, but the government does not accept them so they are irrelevant. Devomax was not on the ballot, the Scots knew that, and still voted No, if they wanted to be certain of governing themselves they should have voted Yes, tough!
Now Gordon is back in town he can demolish the Tory lies about the cause of the economic crash and become a well-respected asset in GE2015.He has emerged stronger than ever from the wilderness.He saved the world and saved the union.Is Gordon the new Moses?
Comments
No Votes and No Barnett.
Someone needs to remind Gordon Brown he isn't Prime Minister any longer. He's got a bloody cheek trying to dictate devolution timetable.
Jonathan Calder @lordbonkers 5m
@IainDale I suspect he has realised the party leaders are all too weak to stop him
Have a shufti at these documents - for the general public -
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/PublicInformationdocuments/HAW_071013.pdf
[edit- forgot:] http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/PublicInformationdocuments/WhoDoesWhat_071013.pdf
In particular, the latter says quite clearly
"What can an MSP help me with?
MSPs can assist if you have concerns
about a devolved matter such as:
• health
• education
• justice
• police and fire services
• housing
• environment. [...]
Your MP can assist you if you have
concerns about a reserved matter
such as:
• benefits and social security
• immigration
• defence
• foreign policy
• employment
• trade and industry."
Obviously, there is a bit of give and take and some redirection may be needed, but that is pretty clear and up front.
I believe this parliament would have to have PR.
I'd settle for the local govt we already have working properly. I don't see bigging up the bunch of people politicians and institutions we have already any solution to anything.
At the risk of being boring - the real issue is resolving the WLQ given we will have more Scottish devolution. That does not require tearing up the local govt map of England.
More shameful non action by city authorities.
Yorkshire police must be one of the most corrupt police forces in Britain, and thats saying something.
Also were Lib Dem cabinet members informed of Camerons proposals and time-scales?
This issue is not something that should bother Scotland. I seem to recall that SNP MPs did not vote on english matters anyway.
It looks like we can rely on the tories to block any new devolution for Scotland without arrangements for England.
And as labour don;t want arrangements for England, the situation is deadlock.
Nothing is going to happen, and the Scots are going to get more and more frustrated. And they will be right to be.
He does not say unless they lea(r)n to type.
Cameron can't go back on what he promised Scotland and will go along with the devomax. The difficulty will be getting Tory backbenchers to agree to it, while EV4EL is not likely to be implemented.
I am not sure that if the Tories had a majority that they would be passing legislation for EV4EL, as this has been looked into before. They can't do it, unless they overide the rules that govern parliament. If they tried to do this, they could well be blocked in the HOL and if they applied the parliament act, it could be subject to challenge in the Supreme court.
The HoL could indeed block the Bill before the election, particularly with less than a year of the parliament left, so no opportunity to use the Parliament Act. If it did so, it might find its life expectancy severely shortened as such a move would come after support had been given in the Commons and would also block promises made to those in Scotland.
Devomax has got to get through the house of commons, where there are 300 almost exclusively English conservative MPs.
Gordon Brown and David Cameron can huff and puff all they like. Without immediate reciprocal arrangements for England, devomax ain't gonna happen. It is dead in the water.
Those who get obsessively worked up about the unfairness to England created by elements of this latest constitutional arrangement fail to acknowledge the fact that the UK is basically biased towards England in the first place. English power is absolute. If "England" really wants something, then England gets it, that is just the reality of having 85% of the population. As confirmed by the tiny number of occasions since devolution when Scottish MPs have made a difference.
A referendum on weakening Scottish/Welsh influence at Westminster would by no means be sure to pass or even come close. More than half the population are i imagine quite relaxed about there being a constitutional anomaly which currently restrains Tory power at Westminster.
If he is speaking as Leader of the Conservatives, there is no way he can expect the Lib Dems to fall into line behind him - not without prior consultation - and he will probably have difficulty in getting the Tory MPs to follow him anyway. As a leader, he is pretty weak, isn´t he?
Rod has lost his way especially over the Scottish referendum.
Only Jack seems to get the big calls correct.
The new powers will pass, the issue is when and with what other consequences.
There was no Conservative emblems on display.
Brown talks as if he can personally deliver devomax to Scotland before 2015.
That is an absurd notion. He can't. And he won't.
This govt are of course well practised in this - claiming to have devolved significant powers to English local authorities whilst simultaneously cutting their central Govt grants so significantly as to render these powers effectively unusable.
Remember all those YeSNP posts about their fabulous ground game and extensive database of supporters?
Er...
https://loveandgarbage.wordpress.com/2014/09/20/yah-all-right-yyaaahhhhh-aaaalllllll-rrrriiiiigggghhhhtttttt/
Wiothout anything for England???
Total fantasy. Fancy fifty quid on it at evens??
What is unclear is how many Labour and LD MPs care about fairness for England. Voting against that could prove dangerous for English Labour and LD MPs in marginals.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29294096
Until such time as England can elect English representatives who without interference of any sort from the other three Home nations are able to define their own agenda and policies for the devolved areas and allocate resources to those functions and managing their own budget then England will not have equality.
Without English Rule for English Legislation Westminster will be continuing to treat the English electorate with contempt.
As for the mutterings from, Labour of butchering England for their own self-serving purposes that is a recipe for destroying not just the Union but England also. How long would it be before the political fault line of the Humber-Severn becomes the border of a potential breakaway English movement. Why wouldn't the cashcow regions of the south (along with the East Midlands) follow Scotland down the independence route when its clear how Labour disregard them. In 2010 Labour polled less in the southern region outside London than the Tories did in Scotland. Now if they breakaway how long before the centre of Wealth in London follows and even perhaps the West Midlands and Yorkshire
As potentially awkward for Westminster as it is there is only one equitable solution for England and that is an English Parliament based on the current constituency approach.
Cameron would offer devomax for Scotland tomorrow if he could get EV4EL in return tomorrow.
Why can't he??
Labour.
And that is what he will say to Scotland.
What will labour say?
There is no particular problem with devomax in its principle, its just that Labour will not vote for EV4EL. A tory govt would give both - after 2015.
Then expect the MSPs to take part in a UK wide Commons part time. If necessary cut some MSPs to make it match.
Eng MPs can then be an Eng body, and we have symmetry.
Then we have removed the issue of different votes for different bodies, and brought the Scottish anti-Eng types into UK debates.
The Edinburgh, Cardiff and NI bodies need a *major* review anyway; it is not OK that Mr Eck managed to suborn his Civik Service for party purposes.
Scottish parties - Tories and SNP - that suffer under fptp may then get to Westminster in appropriate numbers. The Tory and SNP voters deserve representation, and in the case of the SNP it may break them out of their unending narcissistic victim narratives.
Spurs 0-3 Liverpool
West Ham 2-0 Liverpool (after 7 mins)
All these straw man arguments just show how desperate Labour are to torpedo any EV4EL changes.
It will. Nothing will happen before 2015 and a blame game will start as to who has let the Scots down. The tories will blame labour and vice versa.
A deal will get done post 2015.
It is no good arguing Scottish MPs are already 2nd class. This misses the point that this change will radically reduce their powers making them close to an irrelevance. It will then be difficult to justify their salaries and the best Scottish talent will stay in Scotland.
What's more EV4EL will create a de facto English parliament. Nobody is seriously arguing for a near replica set of MPs. Nor have I heard many arguments for a separate excecutive.
I think there has to be one person who is simulatenously prime minister of the UK and 1st minister of England. And that person would have to be the leader of the party that wins England regardless of whether the same party also has a UK majoirty. Such a situation may well be unacceptable to Scots and result in separation.
The way he is going around and the media is reporting it, anybody would think he is in charge of England AND Scotland, rather than Cameron and Salmond. He's not even in the shadow cabinet, but appears to be setting out what the UK government position is.
RodCrosby Posts: 2,534
September 19
tentative Central forecast:
NO majority: 382,000
Actual result: NO majority 383,987
It may not pass, and the awkward squad may be difficult either side. It will however air the issues and smoke out the positions of the various parties. They may even come up with a workable solution!
Excuse my naivity, but isn't that what Parliament is for?
Not if you stuff the Ministerial payroll vote full of Home Nation MPs. They get their say behind closed doors. You don't even then know what they are up to.
As far as NI is concerned this Gerry Adams response to the Scottish referendum result gives some clues as to their position.Full control of welfare policies,as with Scotland,is a central plank.They are resisting the social experiment on humanity of the Mengle inspired Tories like IDS.http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/31501
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2763043/Now-Labour-wants-16-year-old-vote-Idealistic-sixth-formers-likely-Miliband.html
I wonder how that will play out?
Also out of interest, do we know if we excluded the 16/17 year olds from the Scottish Indy vote, how much wider would the NO's winning margin been?
I have a soft spot for it due to the contributions of experts and non-partisans, but it's been undermined by superannuated oafs being thrown up from the Commons since Tony. It is far better and more thinking than the Commons, even now.
We need to keep some features of the Upper House.
I was thinking about 2 per county as per the Yanks, with 'experts' having speaking but not voting rights.
MW
It'll be interesting to see if 'English votes for English laws' becomes an issue or not.
I was reading the thread on Thursday/ Fri , thought you were predicting a Yes win.
You were just stating Betfair movements ?
No it doesn't. What it does is allow English MPs to alter and reject legislation. It does not give them the power to define and allocate budgets for devolved areas or indeed define the agendas or originate policies for those devolved areas. It also does not stop their amendments on devolved areas being thrown out by the Home Nations peers in the House Of Lords.
Its a weak fudge which at best allows them to block legislation. Nothing else! Effectively it will replicate the sort of Scenario one sees every year in Washington with the US budget. As a result of that dysfunctional mess the US Government and Legisalture are held in ever greater contempt. Undermining Westminster is hardly the way forward
http://theconversation.com/gordon-browns-intervention-in-no-campaign-marks-a-political-resurrection-31862?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The+Weekend+Conversation+-+1932&utm_content=The+Weekend+Conversation+-+1932+CID_c622a0958aad29ae8c648fc6d6afc267&utm_source=campaign_monitor_uk&utm_term=Gordon Browns intervention in No campaign marks a political resurrection
The nastiness of CyberUnionists is a case in point. Even today I, and the site owner, were trolled pretty badly on a pro-independence blog. Even though I supported No, and even though the vote is done.
I'm sure no-one here was responsible. As we know, PBTories are respectable, calm, rational and civilised. As Tim could confirm.
I've been having a muse on this and there aren't any easy answers.
I'm moving in my mind toward an English Parliament (though perhaps Assembly might be a better word) though not without several qualms. I'm a firm believer in devolution but more about repatriating powers from Westminster to existing local authorities than any nonsense about Regional Assemblies and the like.
I'm also concerned about an additional layer of bureaucracy - I also wonder if such an English Assembly couldn't involve Council leaders as well as MPs and create linkage between local Councils and the Parliament/Assembly.
Thinking aloud, you'd have Westminster MPs and Assembly members (which could duplicate I suppose) as well as a tranche of Council leaders and this would allow legislation to be considered within the context of its impact on local services.
Still a lot of thinking to do...
"‘The Scottish Parliament is permanent and extensive new powers for the Parliament will be delivered by the process and to the timetable agreed and announced by our three parties, starting on 19th September.’"
Timetable agreed and announced... starting on 19th. So Clegg said nothing on 19th, Cameron says "EV4EL" on 19th and Miliband says he wants a committee.....
PS - The SNP have just announced that the timetable is already broken, I agree.
2nd Scottish independence referendum in 2015? Slate of 40+ SNP MPs elected at GE 2015?
(* Only after EU withdrawal)
And should we have weekly mobile throwing ceremonies and a ritual for condemning little old ladies as bigots?
Next you'll be suggesting Sion Simon, John Prescott and Mick Martin should make comebacks too! Hey what about good ole Tone as well?
I don;t agree that Scots would want to leave the union simply because they don;t like the result in Westminster.
They will be autonomous.
I think anything that helps at least some of us get used to voting early (depending on their birthday, admittedly) will help with democracy and involvement. The Scottish experiment will be very interesting. And I would still have said that (with just a little gritting of teeth) if they mostly voted No.
He can say whatever he wants. Cameron holds all the cards and any over promise or under delivery on Gordo's words simply hits Labour in Scotland.
Cussty as Del Boy would say.
No-one is suggesting that EVFEL is constitutional nirvana -what it is is a stop gap solution to prevent an abuse of democracy, that should have been in place as soon as devolution took effect, and should be in place now. Any frustrations and difficulties (if there are such) are spurs to work toward an eventual better solution.
If Westminster obfuscate over / under deliver on Devomax and the Scottish people regret their referendum decision there is nothing to stop an SNP government holding their own referendum (granted not binding) and if that referendum came out 2 to 1 in favour of independence (Westminster having further blotted it copy book ) Westminster would have a major problem!
Now given that all three Westminster parties committed to Devomax and only the Tories are committed to an EU referendum and are 10 points or more short of the majority to deliver it, I would say at this moment another referendum in Scotland is more likely than a referendum on the EU and will be until Westminster delivers on Devomax.
I'll get me coat...