William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
How will an independent Scotland defend itself if the Russians decide the North Sea oil platforms are in Russian territorial waters?
How would the UK as it exists today? The RN is not actually over endowed with deployable assets and has a very limited anti-surface warfare capability and I think that the RAF no longer has any anti-ship capability at all.
I vaguely recall the SNP's navel defence plan after independence was for 2 ships, at least initially. Presumably one for the East coast, another for the West.
Mr. Jam, the defence plan proposed in the Scottish White Paper is about as big a work of fantasy and one of Mr. Dancer's novels. The difference is that Mr. Dancer doesn't try and pretend that his characters and stories are real.
If one recalls that about 10% of the population moves each year, and so are consequently registered to vote at more than one address, than a 90% [real] turnout would be recorded as an 81% turnout, because of the excess people on the register.
A turnout of 85% on the official figures could be as high as 94% in reality.
Except that registers are updated on a monthly basis, and this applies to people dropping off, as well as those coming on.
Thanks for the correction - I thought they were updated only on an annual basis.
A couple of news sources are hinting there's a bit of a tory/lib pact to shaft labour if we get a no - in the form of powers to freeze scots MPs out of English matters in return for devomax.
Unless they get the legislation on the statute book before May 2015, this is so much hot air. I don't trust either the Tories or the Lib Dems to deliver and Labour certainly won't.
It should have been made part of the Vow. Instead, Cameron - who has all the strategic nous of a blancmange - got stitched up by Brown and Scottish Labour.
What I find bizarre is the concern about the WLQ. A true breach of the WLQ happens so rarely in reality, and although the cases of the student fees and NHS were important and pretty bad, there is a lot more activity in Parliament than that.
Surely it would be political suicide for Labour and the LDs to try it on again?
Any other solution than a gents agreement risks introducing new problems.
It's a basic question of fairness. If England doesn't get a say on devolved matters in Scotland, your MPs shouldn't get a say on the same matters in England. Given the untrustworthiness of politicians, a gentleman's agreement is unacceptable. No more Scottish influence should be allowed on any issue covered by devomax. While we're at it, we can return to equal spending levels in Scotland and England.
And whist we are at DEVO max powers for wales and NI and no voting on English matters.
I cannot believe it's risen to 6 on betfair. It seems way too high, it tempts me just to lump more on it. New voter % market on betfair just opened too.
Perhaps the turnover numbers are driving the price ?
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
The Union flag was the creation of the Union Act of 1801, not 1707. Given that part of both realms that merged in 1801 remain part of the UK, we should keep the flag. The Saltire doesn't even have the same blue on it.
Does anyone know if any other pollster, apart from Ipsos-Mori (it would seem), failed to ask the question as it actually appears on the ballot paper?
'Should Scotland be an independent country?' Yes No
As far as I can see from the cross-tabs they asked the right question. Where is it coming from that they screwed up?
On their graphics but from what Hugh has posted that seems to be a typographical error. On their link the question appears 'Should Scotland become an independent country.' If the margins are tight that's a small but potentially significant difference.
I can't help thinking in the secrecy of the ballot station that question, and the way the ballot paper appears, favours YES. It just seems to me to be harder to put No to it ...
Talking of the Labour Party conference - if tonight's result is No, will Miliband push Gordon Brown front and centre next week as the former PM is now seen as something of a oratorial and tactical colossus?
Yes please! I want Miliband and Brown all over the telly in May. :-)
There's been very little discussion in the media or elsewhere on a possible social divide between Yes and No supporters, which is a bit odd IMO. Most of the anecdotal evidence appears to be that the wealthier someone is the more likely they are to vote No.
That might be accounted for by the very strong wealth - Tory - No correlation. Mind you, the causality is another matter.
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
The Union flag was the creation of the Union Act of 1801, not 1707. Given that part of both realms that merged in 1801 remain part of the UK, we should keep the flag. The Saltire doesn't even have the same blue on it.
The current version of the Union flag was created in 1801, yes, reinforcing the principle that it consists of a combination of the crosses of the patron saints of its constituent nations. If one of those constituent nations - Scotland - leaves it would be pathetically insecure to keep the cross of St Andrew on the Union Flag.
While the shade of blue used on the Saltire today is lighter [and in my opinion less pleasant] than the shade used on the Union Flag, this is something of a recent innovation - Wikipedia records the current lighter shade being settled on in 2003!
The most sensible suggestion I have seen in a logical sense is to replace the cross of St Andrew with the Welsh cross of St David - although some people do raise entirely reasonable aesthetic objections to this solution.
Talking of the Labour Party conference - if tonight's result is No, will Miliband push Gordon Brown front and centre next week as the former PM is now seen as something of a oratorial and tactical colossus?
Yes please! I want Miliband and Brown all over the telly in May. :-)
Do you think the Tories will have selected a new permanent leader by then, or will they go for a caretaker?
Having thought about it, I don't think the turnout can exceed 100%, even with postal voting fraud.
This is because the fraudulent votes will also be included in the total number of potential electors. For example dead people or non existant people will still be on the register.
Mr. Me, piffle. I'd prefer use to keep the flag as is. And why not? Australia and New Zealand aren't British and have our flag in theirs (I think Hawaii does as well).
If it must be changed, shifting blue to black would look alright and be a nice nod to the Welsh. It'd also be one of the few suggestions which wouldn't look bloody awful.
The problem is the first result could be either Western Isles or Orkney. If it's Orkney with a big No vote the Yes position on Betfair may not improve much.
How will an independent Scotland defend itself if the Russians decide the North Sea oil platforms are in Russian territorial waters?
Given that in such a scenario the Russians would first have to neutralize a NATO member - Norway - it is a frankly daft question. Mind you you are in good company. A few weeks ago a journalist from the Guardian contacted a Scots colleague of mine to ask if he knew anyone who could advise on the consequences of a Russian attack on an independent Scotland.
It is worth pointing out that Russian military vessels regularly move up and down through the North Sea, happily ignoring any disruption they might cause to oil activity and have in the past shut down helicopter flights by launching fighter aircraft and helicopters from their carriers whilst in the oil fields.
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
The Union flag was the creation of the Union Act of 1801, not 1707. Given that part of both realms that merged in 1801 remain part of the UK, we should keep the flag. The Saltire doesn't even have the same blue on it.
Any free country is at liberty to chose whatever colour it wants on its national flag.
Scotland does not have copyright on the colour blue.
So rUK can continue with the current 'Union' flag colours if it wishes.
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
The Union flag was the creation of the Union Act of 1801, not 1707. Given that part of both realms that merged in 1801 remain part of the UK, we should keep the flag. The Saltire doesn't even have the same blue on it.
Any free country is at liberty to chose whatever colour it wants on its national flag.
Scotland does not have copyright on the colour blue.
So rUK can continue with the current 'Union' flag colours if it wishes.
There's absolutely no point in changing the Union Jack. I don't understand why it's even under discussion or speculation.
How will an independent Scotland defend itself if the Russians decide the North Sea oil platforms are in Russian territorial waters?
Given that in such a scenario the Russians would first have to neutralize a NATO member - Norway - it is a frankly daft question. Mind you you are in good company. A few weeks ago a journalist from the Guardian contacted a Scots colleague of mine to ask if he knew anyone who could advise on the consequences of a Russian attack on an independent Scotland.
It is worth pointing out that Russian military vessels regularly move up and down through the North Sea, happily ignoring any disruption they might cause to oil activity and have in the past shut down helicopter flights by launching fighter aircraft and helicopters from their carriers whilst in the oil fields.
Do we know that an independent Scotland would be a member of NATO given the SNP's rejection of nuclear weapons?
How will an independent Scotland defend itself if the Russians decide the North Sea oil platforms are in Russian territorial waters?
How would the UK as it exists today? The RN is not actually over endowed with deployable assets and has a very limited anti-surface warfare capability and I think that the RAF no longer has any anti-ship capability at all.
In 2011 the Russians anchored up off the Moray Firth. We had to send a ship from Portsmouth to intercept them and the only reason we knew they had turned up there was because the Russians posted the fact on social media.
How will an independent Scotland defend itself if the Russians decide the North Sea oil platforms are in Russian territorial waters?
How would the UK as it exists today? The RN is not actually over endowed with deployable assets and has a very limited anti-surface warfare capability and I think that the RAF no longer has any anti-ship capability at all.
Really?
I don't think they are a credible threat. Putin only has a single aircraft carrier iirc.
UK does have anti-surface capability from surface and air according to Prof Wiki, never mind those hunter-killer subs.
Mr Salmond would shout at them through a toilet roll from a pedalo, and they would have no choice other than to obey because he would be Imperator Scotus Maximus, just as Germany, Spain, France, Italy and the rest of the EU will obe him, and the UK will give him CU because he says so.
Mr. Me, piffle. I'd prefer use to keep the flag as is. And why not? Australia and New Zealand aren't British and have our flag in theirs (I think Hawaii does as well).
If it must be changed, shifting blue to black would look alright and be a nice nod to the Welsh. It'd also be one of the few suggestions which wouldn't look bloody awful.
It's a bit different for, say, Australia to have the Union Flag in the corner of their flag, because it's a nod to the creation of their country.
Keeping the cross of St Andrew on the Union Flag would be akin to the centuries of English Kings retaining the Fleur-de-lis on the Royal Standard, laying claim to be the King of France. It would be a pathetic failure to acknowledge reality.
How will an independent Scotland defend itself if the Russians decide the North Sea oil platforms are in Russian territorial waters?
Given that in such a scenario the Russians would first have to neutralize a NATO member - Norway - it is a frankly daft question. Mind you you are in good company. A few weeks ago a journalist from the Guardian contacted a Scots colleague of mine to ask if he knew anyone who could advise on the consequences of a Russian attack on an independent Scotland.
It is worth pointing out that Russian military vessels regularly move up and down through the North Sea, happily ignoring any disruption they might cause to oil activity and have in the past shut down helicopter flights by launching fighter aircraft and helicopters from their carriers whilst in the oil fields.
Do we know that an independent Scotland would be a member of NATO given the SNP's rejection of nuclear weapons?
It doesn't make any difference. Norway is currently debating a constitutional ban on nuclear weapons on its territory and no one has suggested it would in any way effect their NATO membership.
Talking of the Labour Party conference - if tonight's result is No, will Miliband push Gordon Brown front and centre next week as the former PM is now seen as something of a oratorial and tactical colossus?
Yes please! I want Miliband and Brown all over the telly in May. :-)
Do you think the Tories will have selected a new permanent leader by then, or will they go for a caretaker?
If it's a YES I think Dave is indeed likely to be toast. Hague steps in as PM on acting basis while Tories elect new leader / PM (at least until May). If it's a NO Dave survives - until the issue of Barnett / EVFEL / WLQ and Dave's reluctance to do the right thing causes some sort of rupture with his party and he's ejected. Then it's Hague etc as above. If it's a NO and Dave drafts legislation to give Scotland Devomax / Barnett unchanged but also builds WLQ / EVFEL / FUK resolution into the legislation he puts himself back in the party's good books for shafting Labour and doing the right thing for the English -and survives altogether.
So...I think Dave's survival now depends wholly on what he does for England. Not what he does for Scotland.
As a politico, I have always tended to over-estimate turnout during polling day itself and then been disappointed at the final percentage at the count.
If postal vote turnouts are being accurately reported at high 80 percents, I think polling day turnout will be in the 70 percents. There may be betting value in total turnout below 80%.
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
I have seen no serious suggestion from the Yes side that they are intending to end the Union of the Crowns. In which case by your own argument there is no need for a change in the flag.
Mr. Me, piffle. I'd prefer use to keep the flag as is. And why not? Australia and New Zealand aren't British and have our flag in theirs (I think Hawaii does as well).
If it must be changed, shifting blue to black would look alright and be a nice nod to the Welsh. It'd also be one of the few suggestions which wouldn't look bloody awful.
It's a bit different for, say, Australia to have the Union Flag in the corner of their flag, because it's a nod to the creation of their country.
Keeping the cross of St Andrew on the Union Flag would be akin to the centuries of English Kings retaining the Fleur-de-lis on the Royal Standard, laying claim to be the King of France. It would be a pathetic failure to acknowledge reality.
For me, aesthetics trumps logic when it comes to the flag. We would be mad to change it.
Power to the people! I tweeted Ipsos-Mori and they have just tweeted back to say they have corrected the graphic and the actual question asked was indeed as per the ballot paper. New graphic is here: https://twitter.com/IMdatafizz/status/512618185607372801/photo/1
When the US film of the Scottish referendum comes out, whatever the actual result it will show a YES victory.
I wouldn't be too sure - when John Oliver did a segment on the Daily Show about Scottish Independence and featured a clip from Braveheart he got a huge cheer when he said 'who better to lead the Scots to freedom than a recovering alcoholic Australian multimillionaire anti-semite...'
Most of my staff have yet to vote but plan to and will predominately vote No. The work rush is the last big unknown. For the Yes side, workers tend to be younger, for the No side, workers tend to be more scared about losing their job and more assets to fall in value if it all goes wrong. Workers are not predominately male. In the public sector 69% are female.
A large number of bets were placed on Yes getting more than 55% IIRC. Those bets would seem like money down the drain now.
Surely the value bet on YES is the 50-55% band on Betfair, now? You can get on at 8.0
If it's going to be YES, it will be by a whisker not a landslide , and the margin could go all the way up to almost a 10 point lead and you'd still collect. It's a very good value arb and overlooked by those fixated on the main market (which is still around 6.0) IMHO
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
The Union flag was the creation of the Union Act of 1801, not 1707. Given that part of both realms that merged in 1801 remain part of the UK, we should keep the flag. The Saltire doesn't even have the same blue on it.
The current version of the Union flag was created in 1801, yes, reinforcing the principle that it consists of a combination of the crosses of the patron saints of its constituent nations. If one of those constituent nations - Scotland - leaves it would be pathetically insecure to keep the cross of St Andrew on the Union Flag.
While the shade of blue used on the Saltire today is lighter [and in my opinion less pleasant] than the shade used on the Union Flag, this is something of a recent innovation - Wikipedia records the current lighter shade being settled on in 2003!
The most sensible suggestion I have seen in a logical sense is to replace the cross of St Andrew with the Welsh cross of St David - although some people do raise entirely reasonable aesthetic objections to this solution.
Send the bill for changing all the flags to Salmond, and see if he agrees.
Most of my staff have yet to vote but plan to and will predominately vote No. The work rush is the last big unknown. For the Yes side, workers tend to be younger, for the No side, workers tend to be more scared about losing their job and more assets to fall in value if it all goes wrong. Workers are not predominately male. In the public sector 69% are female.
Plus you have more to lose, self-evidently, if you are in a job and there are all these warnings about economic upheaval being bandied around.
Option 1: vote Yes and see what happens with my job, could be interesting, a bumpy ride perhaps, what about the mortgage payments. Option 2: vote No and know that not much will happen with my job; not interesting but safe.
Doesn't take the brains of an archbishop to work out which those who are risk-averse (most of us) is more appealing.
Mr. Me, piffle. I'd prefer use to keep the flag as is. And why not? Australia and New Zealand aren't British and have our flag in theirs (I think Hawaii does as well).
If it must be changed, shifting blue to black would look alright and be a nice nod to the Welsh. It'd also be one of the few suggestions which wouldn't look bloody awful.
It would be a pathetic failure to acknowledge reality.
Nah - it would be an acknowledgement of the peoples who make up rUK - which will continue to include many hundreds of thousands of Scots - in any case, the Royal College of Heralds has said there is no need to change it as its a Royal Standard.....
I think we will have more pressing matters on our minds....and we'd be certifiable to tinker with an iconic global brand.....
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
The Union flag was the creation of the Union Act of 1801, not 1707. Given that part of both realms that merged in 1801 remain part of the UK, we should keep the flag. The Saltire doesn't even have the same blue on it.
The current version of the Union flag was created in 1801, yes, reinforcing the principle that it consists of a combination of the crosses of the patron saints of its constituent nations. If one of those constituent nations - Scotland - leaves it would be pathetically insecure to keep the cross of St Andrew on the Union Flag.
While the shade of blue used on the Saltire today is lighter [and in my opinion less pleasant] than the shade used on the Union Flag, this is something of a recent innovation - Wikipedia records the current lighter shade being settled on in 2003!
The most sensible suggestion I have seen in a logical sense is to replace the cross of St Andrew with the Welsh cross of St David - although some people do raise entirely reasonable aesthetic objections to this solution.
A heraldist/vexillologist would have a fit. No gold bordering white, if you please!
How will an independent Scotland defend itself if the Russians decide the North Sea oil platforms are in Russian territorial waters?
How would the UK as it exists today? The RN is not actually over endowed with deployable assets and has a very limited anti-surface warfare capability and I think that the RAF no longer has any anti-ship capability at all.
I vaguely recall the SNP's navel defence plan after independence was for 2 ships, at least initially. Presumably one for the East coast, another for the West.
Mr. Me, piffle. I'd prefer use to keep the flag as is. And why not? Australia and New Zealand aren't British and have our flag in theirs (I think Hawaii does as well).
If it must be changed, shifting blue to black would look alright and be a nice nod to the Welsh. It'd also be one of the few suggestions which wouldn't look bloody awful.
It's a bit different for, say, Australia to have the Union Flag in the corner of their flag, because it's a nod to the creation of their country.
Keeping the cross of St Andrew on the Union Flag would be akin to the centuries of English Kings retaining the Fleur-de-lis on the Royal Standard, laying claim to be the King of France. It would be a pathetic failure to acknowledge reality.
For me, aesthetics trumps logic when it comes to the flag. We would be mad to change it.
Don't think the Danes have changed theirs for something like 1000 years. The Welsh dragon on a green and white background is certainly hundreds of years old, and I believe the dragon itself was a Roman army symbol (they used to have "fire breathing" dragons with hot coals in them with the army). As such I believe the Welsh flag is a touch of the "we are civilised Romans as opposed to you heathen Anglo- Saxons" sort of a meme.
Kind of appropriate if the Roman province of Britannia (Ok with added Irish bit) is effectively recreated by 5.00 tomorrow morning.
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
The Union flag was the creation of the Union Act of 1801, not 1707. Given that part of both realms that merged in 1801 remain part of the UK, we should keep the flag. The Saltire doesn't even have the same blue on it.
Any free country is at liberty to chose whatever colour it wants on its national flag.
Scotland does not have copyright on the colour blue.
So rUK can continue with the current 'Union' flag colours if it wishes.
You can't get a copyright on a colour. In very rare circumstances you may be able to register a trademark. These will not apply to Scotland.
In any case, the rUK is home to millions of people with Scottish heritage. Retaining the St Andrew's cross within the Union Jack will be completely appropriate.
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
I have seen no serious suggestion from the Yes side that they are intending to end the Union of the Crowns. In which case by your own argument there is no need for a change in the flag.
The flag represents the political construct not the monarchical one. That is why it did not include St Patrick's cross before the Act of Union with Ireland in 1801, despite the fact that the Kings of Great Britain had long called themselves the King of Ireland.
Her Majesty will continue to have a Scottish emblem on her Royal Standard to represent the Union of the Crowns but to have the cross of the patron saint of Scotland on the flag of a political Union that no longer included Scotland would be risible.
I find it rather sad that Mike Smithson has chosen to use the pejorative term "separatists"
Why is it pejorative? Do the nationalists not wish to be a separate country?
Merriam-Webster seem to think so:
sep·a·rat·ist noun \ˈse-p(ə-)rə-tist, ˈse-pə-ˌrā-\ : a member of a group of people who want to form a new country, religion, etc., that is separate from the one they are in now
Its only 'pejorative' to some because the SNP have been dishonest about what 'independence' entails.
How will an independent Scotland defend itself if the Russians decide the North Sea oil platforms are in Russian territorial waters?
Given that in such a scenario the Russians would first have to neutralize a NATO member - Norway - it is a frankly daft question. Mind you you are in good company. A few weeks ago a journalist from the Guardian contacted a Scots colleague of mine to ask if he knew anyone who could advise on the consequences of a Russian attack on an independent Scotland.
It is worth pointing out that Russian military vessels regularly move up and down through the North Sea, happily ignoring any disruption they might cause to oil activity and have in the past shut down helicopter flights by launching fighter aircraft and helicopters from their carriers whilst in the oil fields.
More to the point, how will the Scots keep European fishing boats out of their territorial waters?
In any case, the rUK is home to millions of people with Scottish heritage. Retaining the St Andrew's cross within the Union Jack will be completely appropriate.
How will an independent Scotland defend itself if the Russians decide the North Sea oil platforms are in Russian territorial waters?
Given that in such a scenario the Russians would first have to neutralize a NATO member - Norway - it is a frankly daft question. Mind you you are in good company. A few weeks ago a journalist from the Guardian contacted a Scots colleague of mine to ask if he knew anyone who could advise on the consequences of a Russian attack on an independent Scotland.
It is worth pointing out that Russian military vessels regularly move up and down through the North Sea, happily ignoring any disruption they might cause to oil activity and have in the past shut down helicopter flights by launching fighter aircraft and helicopters from their carriers whilst in the oil fields.
More to the point, how will the Scots keep European fishing boats out of their territorial waters?
LOL. That one really is a laugh given that we have singularly failed to do that ourselves for the last 40 years.
Most of my staff have yet to vote but plan to and will predominately vote No. The work rush is the last big unknown. For the Yes side, workers tend to be younger, for the No side, workers tend to be more scared about losing their job and more assets to fall in value if it all goes wrong. Workers are not predominately male. In the public sector 69% are female.
Doesn't take the brains of an archbishop to work out .
Uh-oh. Hope Socrates et.al. aren't around or we could be back to last night's theological seminar.
Just turn the blue bits black and leave it at that. Nod to Wales. Design unchanged. Looks fab. Red, white and black Union Jack. Maybe we should call it the Union Black. ;-)
The current vesion of the Union flag was created in 1801, yes, reinforcing the principle that it consists of a combination of the crosses of the patron saints of its constituent nations. If one of those constituent nations - Scotland - leaves it would be pathetically insecure to keep the cross of St Andrew on the Union Flag.
While the shade of blue used on the Saltire today is lighter [and in my opinion less pleasant] than the shade used on the Union Flag, this is something of a recent innovation - Wikipedia records the current lighter shade being settled on in 2003!
The most sensible suggestion I have seen in a logical sense is to replace the cross of St Andrew with the Welsh cross of St David - although some people do raise entirely reasonable aesthetic objections to this solution.
We didn't change the flag when southern Ireland left. We didn't change the flag when Wales was given a legal personality distinct from England. We shouldn't change the flag if Scotland leaves.
What would be insecure is to allow the leaving of 8% of the population to cause us to completely rejig our identity and our symbols. No, we should do the British thing, which is to sail on as before, without making such a fuss over it. We will keep our state. We will keep our currency. We will keep our British identity. We will keep our flag.
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
I have seen no serious suggestion from the Yes side that they are intending to end the Union of the Crowns. In which case by your own argument there is no need for a change in the flag.
The flag represents the political construct not the monarchical one. That is why it did not include St Patrick's cross before the Act of Union with Ireland in 1801, despite the fact that the Kings of Great Britain had long called themselves the King of Ireland.
Her Majesty will continue to have a Scottish emblem on her Royal Standard to represent the Union of the Crowns but to have the cross of the patron saint of Scotland on the flag of a political Union that no longer included Scotland would be risible.
The Union flag included the St Andrews Cross from 1606. A century before the union of the Parliaments.
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
I have seen no serious suggestion from the Yes side that they are intending to end the Union of the Crowns. In which case by your own argument there is no need for a change in the flag.
The flag represents the political construct not the monarchical one. That is why it did not include St Patrick's cross before the Act of Union with Ireland in 1801, despite the fact that the Kings of Great Britain had long called themselves the King of Ireland.
Her Majesty will continue to have a Scottish emblem on her Royal Standard to represent the Union of the Crowns but to have the cross of the patron saint of Scotland on the flag of a political Union that no longer included Scotland would be risible.
Berwick is a historically Scottish town that will still be part of the UK. Therefore, in the same way that retaining Ulster lets us keep the Cross of St Patrick, Berwick will let us keep the Cross of St Andrew.
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
I have seen no serious suggestion from the Yes side that they are intending to end the Union of the Crowns. In which case by your own argument there is no need for a change in the flag.
The flag represents the political construct not the monarchical one. That is why it did not include St Patrick's cross before the Act of Union with Ireland in 1801, despite the fact that the Kings of Great Britain had long called themselves the King of Ireland.
Her Majesty will continue to have a Scottish emblem on her Royal Standard to represent the Union of the Crowns but to have the cross of the patron saint of Scotland on the flag of a political Union that no longer included Scotland would be risible.
Berwick is a historically Scottish town that will still be part of the UK. Therefore, in the same way that retaining Ulster lets us keep the Cross of St Patrick, Berwick will let us keep the Cross of St Andrew.
Most of my staff have yet to vote but plan to and will predominately vote No. The work rush is the last big unknown. For the Yes side, workers tend to be younger, for the No side, workers tend to be more scared about losing their job and more assets to fall in value if it all goes wrong. Workers are not predominately male. In the public sector 69% are female.
Doesn't take the brains of an archbishop to work out .
Uh-oh. Hope Socrates et.al. aren't around or we could be back to last night's theological seminar.
How will an independent Scotland defend itself if the Russians decide the North Sea oil platforms are in Russian territorial waters?
Given that in such a scenario the Russians would first have to neutralize a NATO member - Norway - it is a frankly daft question. Mind you you are in good company. A few weeks ago a journalist from the Guardian contacted a Scots colleague of mine to ask if he knew anyone who could advise on the consequences of a Russian attack on an independent Scotland.
It is worth pointing out that Russian military vessels regularly move up and down through the North Sea, happily ignoring any disruption they might cause to oil activity and have in the past shut down helicopter flights by launching fighter aircraft and helicopters from their carriers whilst in the oil fields.
More to the point, how will the Scots keep European fishing boats out of their territorial waters?
LOL. That one really is a laugh given that we have singularly failed to do that ourselves for the last 40 years.
Even worse now the Nimrods have gone without any replacement on the horizon AFAIK.
The current vesion of the Union flag was created in 1801, yes, reinforcing the principle that it consists of a combination of the crosses of the patron saints of its constituent nations. If one of those constituent nations - Scotland - leaves it would be pathetically insecure to keep the cross of St Andrew on the Union Flag.
While the shade of blue used on the Saltire today is lighter [and in my opinion less pleasant] than the shade used on the Union Flag, this is something of a recent innovation - Wikipedia records the current lighter shade being settled on in 2003!
The most sensible suggestion I have seen in a logical sense is to replace the cross of St Andrew with the Welsh cross of St David - although some people do raise entirely reasonable aesthetic objections to this solution.
No, we should do the British thing, which is to sail on as before, without making such a fuss over it. We will keep our state. We will keep our currency. We will keep our British identity. We will keep our flag.
Exactly....though with our current crop of politicians I do worry that they will think about tinkering.....
Someone made a comment about Dundee having a thriving journalism industry that has now gone a day or two ago.
I know that historically the Beano and the Dandy were produced from Dundee, and presumably d.c. thompson published other more serious publications there. Has this all gone now or are they still going up there?
William Hill - What Colours Will The Union Flag Be If Scotland Votes Yes To Independence?
Red And White EVS Red White And Blue 11/4 Green Red And White 4/1 Black White And Red 6/1 Blue, Yellow And White 50/1 Orange, White And Red 50/1 Pink Green and Purple 500/1
Surely continuity is the best value. What are the rules?
I agree. There is no need to change except for possibly an offiocial change to the blue colour and width of the white cross.
Given the Union Flag pre-dates the Act of Union, there is no reason for it to change subsequent to independence.
That's a bit disingenuous. The Union Flag was created as part of James VI/I campaign to create an Act of Union between England and Scotland.
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
I have seen no serious suggestion from the Yes side that they are intending to end the Union of the Crowns. In which case by your own argument there is no need for a change in the flag.
The flag represents the political construct not the monarchical one. That is why it did not include St Patrick's cross before the Act of Union with Ireland in 1801, despite the fact that the Kings of Great Britain had long called themselves the King of Ireland.
Her Majesty will continue to have a Scottish emblem on her Royal Standard to represent the Union of the Crowns but to have the cross of the patron saint of Scotland on the flag of a political Union that no longer included Scotland would be risible.
Berwick is a historically Scottish town that will still be part of the UK. Therefore, in the same way that retaining Ulster lets us keep the Cross of St Patrick, Berwick will let us keep the Cross of St Andrew.
That should satisfy you.
Love it!
Nah.
The whole referendum is a Welsh plot to try and get on the flag in some form.
Yes supporters are saying if the turnout is 85% they should win. It'll be interesting to see whether that conditional proves correct.
Sporting Index suspended their turnout market at 83%/84.5%. Since the direction of travel from the start was upwards, it's safe to assume that a high turnout is bad for them. It's also likely that if they were not afraid of a very high turnout, they would have kept the market open to draw in some low-turnout punters.
I'm beginning to suspect that our previous estimate of 83% may be on the light side.
Btw, who are these 'Yes Supporters' who infer a good result from high turnout? I know Stuart Dickson put this theory forward, but without any supporting evidence. The logic appears questionable to me and I suspect it was just Stuart being Stuart.
In 2011 the Russians anchored up off the Moray Firth. We had to send a ship from Portsmouth to intercept them and the only reason we knew they had turned up there was because the Russians posted the fact on social media.
At least we could send a ship up there to dislodge them. What would Indy-Scotland do? Play the "Complete Speeches of Chairman Alex" on loudspeakers until they left?
Comments
Unless England is forever going to pine for recreating the Union with Scotland then we have to move on and change the flag.
Betfair - Voter Turnout 2
75.0 Percent or fewer 16
75.01 - 80.0 Percent 4.2
80.01 - 85.0 Percent 2.36
85.01 - 90.0 Percent 2.56
90.01 - 95.0 Percent 3.85
95.01 Percent or Greater 14.5
'Should Scotland be an independent country?'
Yes
No
TSE said Mori confirmed they did use the actual wording in the poll, but it appeared incorrectly on some infographics.
We are talking about a 6% lead. Error will need to be approaching the scale of 1992.
One way traffic - it's all over.
I can't help thinking in the secrecy of the ballot station that question, and the way the ballot paper appears, favours YES. It just seems to me to be harder to put No to it ...
https://twitter.com/IpsosMORI?original_referer=http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/09/18/possibly-not-good-news-for-the-scottish-separatists-the-final-two-poll-to-be-completed-had-no-with-the-largest-leads/&tw_i=512557294601912320&tw_p=tweetembed
They had gone to investigate reports of Russian servicemen being killed near the border with Ukraine.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29249642?ocid=socialflow_twitter
While the shade of blue used on the Saltire today is lighter [and in my opinion less pleasant] than the shade used on the Union Flag, this is something of a recent innovation - Wikipedia records the current lighter shade being settled on in 2003!
The most sensible suggestion I have seen in a logical sense is to replace the cross of St Andrew with the Welsh cross of St David - although some people do raise entirely reasonable aesthetic objections to this solution.
This is because the fraudulent votes will also be included in the total number of potential electors. For example dead people or non existant people will still be on the register.
If it must be changed, shifting blue to black would look alright and be a nice nod to the Welsh. It'd also be one of the few suggestions which wouldn't look bloody awful.
It is worth pointing out that Russian military vessels regularly move up and down through the North Sea, happily ignoring any disruption they might cause to oil activity and have in the past shut down helicopter flights by launching fighter aircraft and helicopters from their carriers whilst in the oil fields.
Any free country is at liberty to chose whatever colour it wants on its national flag.
Scotland does not have copyright on the colour blue.
So rUK can continue with the current 'Union' flag colours if it wishes.
Bit like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/UK_&_Wales_Flag_01a.png
lovely.
Do we know that an independent Scotland would be a member of NATO given the SNP's rejection of nuclear weapons?
Really?
I don't think they are a credible threat. Putin only has a single aircraft carrier iirc.
UK does have anti-surface capability from surface and air according to Prof Wiki, never mind those hunter-killer subs.
Mr Salmond would shout at them through a toilet roll from a pedalo, and they would have no choice other than to obey because he would be Imperator Scotus Maximus, just as Germany, Spain, France, Italy and the rest of the EU will obe him, and the UK will give him CU because he says so.
Matt
Keeping the cross of St Andrew on the Union Flag would be akin to the centuries of English Kings retaining the Fleur-de-lis on the Royal Standard, laying claim to be the King of France. It would be a pathetic failure to acknowledge reality.
Meanwhile in Australia they have apparently foiled an IS plot - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/11103346/Australia-foils-Islamic-State-terror-plot-to-commit-Lee-Rigby-style-murders.html
If it's a NO Dave survives - until the issue of Barnett / EVFEL / WLQ and Dave's reluctance to do the right thing causes some sort of rupture with his party and he's ejected. Then it's Hague etc as above.
If it's a NO and Dave drafts legislation to give Scotland Devomax / Barnett unchanged but also builds WLQ / EVFEL / FUK resolution into the legislation he puts himself back in the party's good books for shafting Labour and doing the right thing for the English -and survives altogether.
So...I think Dave's survival now depends wholly on what he does for England. Not what he does for Scotland.
If postal vote turnouts are being accurately reported at high 80 percents, I think polling day turnout will be in the 70 percents. There may be betting value in total turnout below 80%.
Lab 35%
Con 33%
UKIP 13%
LD 8%
Green 5%
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/uk-polling-report-average-2
https://twitter.com/IMdatafizz/status/512618185607372801/photo/1
If it's going to be YES, it will be by a whisker not a landslide , and the margin could go all the way up to almost a 10 point lead and you'd still collect. It's a very good value arb and overlooked by those fixated on the main market (which is still around 6.0) IMHO
Option 1: vote Yes and see what happens with my job, could be interesting, a bumpy ride perhaps, what about the mortgage payments.
Option 2: vote No and know that not much will happen with my job; not interesting but safe.
Doesn't take the brains of an archbishop to work out which those who are risk-averse (most of us) is more appealing.
I think we will have more pressing matters on our minds....and we'd be certifiable to tinker with an iconic global brand.....
While the shade of blue used on the Saltire today is lighter [and in my opinion less pleasant] than the shade used on the Union Flag, this is something of a recent innovation - Wikipedia records the current lighter shade being settled on in 2003!
The most sensible suggestion I have seen in a logical sense is to replace the cross of St Andrew with the Welsh cross of St David - although some people do raise entirely reasonable aesthetic objections to this solution.
A heraldist/vexillologist would have a fit. No gold bordering white, if you please!
Kind of appropriate if the Roman province of Britannia (Ok with added Irish bit) is effectively recreated by 5.00 tomorrow morning.
In any case, the rUK is home to millions of people with Scottish heritage. Retaining the St Andrew's cross within the Union Jack will be completely appropriate.
Her Majesty will continue to have a Scottish emblem on her Royal Standard to represent the Union of the Crowns but to have the cross of the patron saint of Scotland on the flag of a political Union that no longer included Scotland would be risible.
Merriam-Webster seem to think so:
sep·a·rat·ist noun \ˈse-p(ə-)rə-tist, ˈse-pə-ˌrā-\
: a member of a group of people who want to form a new country, religion, etc., that is separate from the one they are in now
Its only 'pejorative' to some because the SNP have been dishonest about what 'independence' entails.
Do the Americans or anybody else celebrate "Separatism Day" and would they not be legitimately offended if you thus refered to it?
You KNOW it is pejorative, that is why it is used :-)
According to the Pope, anyway - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/11105986/Pope-tells-Jews-now-its-our-turn-to-suffer.html
Scotland will separate from a Union.
Different cases entirely.
What would be insecure is to allow the leaving of 8% of the population to cause us to completely rejig our identity and our symbols. No, we should do the British thing, which is to sail on as before, without making such a fuss over it. We will keep our state. We will keep our currency. We will keep our British identity. We will keep our flag.
But that's rather hard to convert, independents obviously means something else. Nationalists has strong party connotations.
That should satisfy you.
But see the SFPA and their FPVs and aircraft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Fisheries_Protection_Agency
I know that historically the Beano and the Dandy were produced from Dundee, and presumably d.c. thompson published other more serious publications there. Has this all gone now or are they still going up there?
most Americans (51%) have no opinion about the referendum and only 33% think most of their fellow countrymen can even locate Scotland on a map.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/europe/september_2014/only_33_of_americans_can_find_scotland_on_a_map
The whole referendum is a Welsh plot to try and get on the flag in some form.
I'm beginning to suspect that our previous estimate of 83% may be on the light side.
Btw, who are these 'Yes Supporters' who infer a good result from high turnout? I know Stuart Dickson put this theory forward, but without any supporting evidence. The logic appears questionable to me and I suspect it was just Stuart being Stuart.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11097615/Wur-doomed-BBC-angers-Scotlands-Yes-camp-with-ill-timed-Dads-Army-episode.html