Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
Agree, I imagine they are picking up the disaffected working class Labour vote that was lost after 2005, along with the plague on all your houses from the Lib dems.
It shows really how much of the Lib Dems vote was no more than a protest. I can't believe that so many people have changed their views from multi culti, green, Europhiles to ukip in a few years... No one thought the LDs would get in so they voted for them because they were unhappy with the other two, and I don't doubt a lot of ukip voters have the same motivation
But I wouldn't dismiss the protest vote... It's as justifiable a cause for voting as any other
A large lead for Labour among employed voters [public: 40-27, private 38-33], but the Conservatives are almost 2:1 ahead with the over-65s.
Traditionally Labour have been seen as the party that spends the money and the Conservatives as the party that pays the bills, but with that strong a generational split it suggests that this is changing. Labour do the work and pay the taxes to support the retired.
This may become more noticeable a political split as the population continues to age.
Am surprised that this poll shows that at least 25% of London would vote UKIP - this is contrary to most other polls.
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But there's a problem with this view of the world, isam. While any thoughtful people would agree that it was a characteristically evil act by Labour to import millions of poor immigrants from Pakistan simply to gerrymander elections in perpetuity, with things like Rotherham in consequence, it doesn't take you forward very far. What are you going to do about those who are already here? It's all very well pointing at Rotherham and saying "Nick Griffin was right" but starting from the current position what is your solution?
At this point UKIP/BNP/EDL falls deafeningly silent, either because they have no idea or they realise that what they want to do is not a vote winner.
The people causing the violence are British, immigrant descended not immigrants, who live in a segregated ghettos and are disenfranchised from what most would have called the English way of life
I have little hope it will get better in terms of violence, I think it will get catastrophically worse... But what can be done? If you flag up the be headings and bombs as proof that something's up, people shoot you down as racist. As you say, Nick Griffin, someone who I wouldn't vote for, did flag up the child abuse and was charged for racism. David Cameron is saying it's not really Muslims doing it etc, so I have little hope
My prediction is there will be extreme violence in the next 30 odd years that will eventually result in parts of, and eventually the whole of England becoming a sharia state... When the history books are read, it will come as a surprise to kids in 2114 that it was ever any different
"We have seen nothing yet' is a phrase that we could with advantage repeat to ourselves whenever we try to form a picture of that future... There lies the certainty of violence on a scale which can only adequately be described as civil war""
Seriously, you need to make friends with some brown people.
There's no need to be patronising, I have friends who aren't white. It's possible to be critical of mass immigration while not unthinkingly disliking immigrants, open your mind. Skin colour is a side issue if it's an issue at all... Look at the partition of India. Everyone was a "brown person" in your guardian speak, but the same factors that are in play here were there
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
I am inclined to agree with you. Our country has been destroyed by multiculturalism and immigration in a way few thought possible. Politicians who thought they were being progressive and morally superior were being stupid and thoughtless
40 or 50 years ago if someone could have fast forwarded to the headlines we see in the papers over the last 18 months regarding Lee Rigby, Northern child abuse and British jihadists in Isis esp the plight of David Haines, I don't think anyone would have believed them. If they had said that white Brits were a minority in London I think they would have been disbelieved again.
The people causing the violence are British, immigrant descended not immigrants, who live in a segregated ghettos and are disenfranchised from what most would have called the English way of life
I have little hope it will get better in terms of violence, I think it will get catastrophically worse... But what can be done? If you flag up the be headings and bombs as proof that something's up, people shoot you down as racist. As you say, Nick Griffin, someone who I wouldn't vote for, did flag up the child abuse and was charged for racism. David Cameron is saying it's not really Muslims doing it etc, so I have little hope
My prediction is there will be extreme violence in the next 30 odd years that will eventually result in parts of, and eventually the whole of England becoming a sharia state... When the history books are read, it will come as a surprise to kids in 2114 that it was ever any different
"We have seen nothing yet' is a phrase that we could with advantage repeat to ourselves whenever we try to form a picture of that future... There lies the certainty of violence on a scale which can only adequately be described as civil war""
And who mentioned that anything was to do with skin colour? Certainly not me
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
Agree, I imagine they are picking up the disaffected working class Labour vote that was lost after 2005, along with the plague on all your houses from the Lib dems.
It shows really how much of the Lib Dems vote was no more than a protest. I can't believe that so many people have changed their views from multi culti, green, Europhiles to ukip in a few years... No one thought the LDs would get in so they voted for them because they were unhappy with the other two, and I don't doubt a lot of ukip voters have the same motivation
But I wouldn't dismiss the protest vote... It's as justifiable a cause for voting as any other
The LibDems though still believe they will hold onto at least 30 seats possibly 35...In their heartlands their supporters are more tribal than Rangers or Celtic fans..
Am surprised that this poll shows that at least 25% of London would vote UKIP - this is contrary to most other polls.
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At this point UKIP/BNP/EDL falls deafeningly silent, either because they have no idea or they realise that what they want to do is not a vote winner.
I am inclined to agree with you. Our country has been destroyed by multiculturalism and immigration in a way few thought possible. Politicians who thought they were being progressive and morally superior were being stupid and thoughtless
40 or 50 years ago if someone could have fast forwarded to the headlines we see in the papers over the last 18 months regarding Lee Rigby, Northern child abuse and British jihadists in Isis esp the plight of David Haines, I don't think anyone would have believed them. If they had said that white Brits were a minority in London I think they would have been disbelieved again.
The people causing the violence are British, immigrant descended not immigrants, who live in a segregated ghettos and are disenfranchised from what most would have called the English way of life
I have little hope it will get better in terms of violence, I think it will get catastrophically worse... But what can be done? If you flag up the be headings and bombs as proof that something's up, people shoot you down as racist. As you say, Nick Griffin, someone who I wouldn't vote for, did flag up the child abuse and was charged for racism. David Cameron is saying it's not really Muslims doing it etc, so I have little hope
My prediction is there will be extreme violence in the next 30 odd years that will eventually result in parts of, and eventually the whole of England becoming a sharia state... When the history books are read, it will come as a surprise to kids in 2114 that it was ever any different
"We have seen nothing yet' is a phrase that we could with advantage repeat to ourselves whenever we try to form a picture of that future... There lies the certainty of violence on a scale which can only adequately be described as civil war""
You could get a job on the Daily Mail I am sure
Well at least I encouraged you to post something up other than boringly unfunny seat forecasts
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Accurate or not, that's how large chunks of the working class see the Tories.
Oh, because the EU is never an issue for Labour. That's why Gordon Brown had to go and sign Lisbon on his own afterwards?
Come off it, the EU hasn't been an issue for Labour since the days of Michael Foot.
There's been plenty of articles on LabourList about how Labour need to have a referendum as it's hurting them on the doorstep. If you look at the voter and activist base, Labour are far more split on the EU than the Conservatives are. The only reason the Conservatives are split over the thing is because the leadership is out of touch with their own party.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Toff = "successful person that doesn't support my protectionist anti-free market party"
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Toff = "successful person that doesn't support my protectionist anti-free market party"
Like "Westminster" = English.
I though Toff meant in Kipper speak = Chap who is giving us a referendum on the EU, but us Kippers are such fearties, we'll do our best to stop it happening, because we're scared me might lose
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Toff = "successful person that doesn't support my protectionist anti-free market party"
Like "Westminster" = English.
I'm pro-market and pro-free trade. Whether or not it's accurate, you need to understand how the people you need to convince to win elections see you. Sticking your fingers in your ears and just throwing insults when people describe the perception is exactly why the Tories have got to the place they're at.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Toff = "successful person that doesn't support my protectionist anti-free market party"
Like "Westminster" = English.
I though Toff meant in Kipper speak = Chap who is giving us a referendum on the EU, but us Kippers are such fearties, we'll do our best to stop it happening, because we're scared me might lose
The Tories are the ones too cowardly to do it this side of the election.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Fairly or not, the biggest single objection to voting Conservative is that they're viewed as the party for rich people, rather than the party for ordinary people.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Toff = "successful person that doesn't support my protectionist anti-free market party"
Like "Westminster" = English.
I though Toff meant in Kipper speak = Chap who is giving us a referendum on the EU, but us Kippers are such fearties, we'll do our best to stop it happening, because we're scared me might lose
The Tories are the ones too cowardly to do it this side of the election.
So, because the Tories aren't going to do it this side of the election, you're going to help ensure we don't have one for the foreseeable future.
Oh, because the EU is never an issue for Labour. That's why Gordon Brown had to go and sign Lisbon on his own afterwards?
Come off it, the EU hasn't been an issue for Labour since the days of Michael Foot.
There's been plenty of articles on LabourList about how Labour need to have a referendum as it's hurting them on the doorstep. If you look at the voter and activist base, Labour are far more split on the EU than the Conservatives are. The only reason the Conservatives are split over the thing is because the leadership is out of touch with their own party.
This roughly mirrors the split over AV, except in that case the Tory leadership was in line with their membership.
And just look what a united Conservative party achieved against a divided Labour party...
The modest difference here is why I don't feel very strongly about the referendum from a party perspective - usually one party wins by more than 3% anyway. I've got caught up in the excitement and hope for a No anyway, but the "Labour would be devastated and we'd have Tory/UKIP governments forever" stuff is just froth.
It may be a modest difference but it increases the combined Tory/UKIP share from 50% to 53%, a clear majority of votes. Makes a possible pact between the parties more likely.
I'm not sure if the 50% threshold is meaningful here but a pact would lose Con and UKIP more than 3% between them.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Fairly or not, the biggest single objection to voting Conservative is that they're viewed as the party for rich people, rather than the party for ordinary people.
Since the begining of time but that hasn't stopped them winning elections, has it? Nor will it in the future.
And who mentioned that anything was to do with skin colour? Certainly not me
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Toff = "successful person that doesn't support my protectionist anti-free market party"
Like "Westminster" = English.
I though Toff meant in Kipper speak = Chap who is giving us a referendum on the EU, but us Kippers are such fearties, we'll do our best to stop it happening, because we're scared me might lose
The Tories are the ones too cowardly to do it this side of the election.
So, because the Tories aren't going to do it this side of the election, you're going to help ensure we don't have one for the foreseeable future.
I'm sure there's a logic behind you position.
Given that the Tories are going to lose the next election regardless, I'm not doing a damn thing to help ensure we don't have one. What I am doing is helping UKIP being successful, so post-2015, the Tories and Labour commit to a referendum for the next election.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Doesn't matter your background it's about the policies one advocates and how you interact with people, see Farage and Johnson.
Carnyx, I think it is very telling that all the comments re Scottish/English on the referendum have all been emanating from England. Very few people ever mention it up here in respect to the referendum.
Do you think there's any link between anti-Englishness and the repeated chanting of "William Wallace" by a large group of Yessers?
That chant actually surprised me very considerably. It's so unusual. It's the first time I have seen the breach of my Law of Braveheart: only the No side ever mention Braveheart, Bannockburn, etc., in indyref (though the Declaration of Arbroath is a different matter). I'd want to see a few more examples before saying Yes to you (so to speak). I've seen quite a few invocations of Keir Hardie, for instance.
In the absence of other evidence, it seems that they were primarily concerned with Scottish independence rather than anti-Englishness. To complain about the latter is in any case, perhaps to suggest that our English visitors in the 1290s were merely having a rather energetic adventure holiday - and one recalls Ian Davidson MP's shocked complaint about the dastardly locals murdering a later group of English tourists near Stirling in 1214. There is a nice French saying: "Cet animal est très méchant. Quand on l'attaque il se défend." But I'm now returning to the 21st century, if I may.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Fairly or not, the biggest single objection to voting Conservative is that they're viewed as the party for rich people, rather than the party for ordinary people.
A party for ordinary people, run by extremely rich people with an agenda.
Look behind the curtain and take a look at the millionaire 'Wizards of Oz' pulling your levers.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Toff = "successful person that doesn't support my protectionist anti-free market party"
Like "Westminster" = English.
I though Toff meant in Kipper speak = Chap who is giving us a referendum on the EU, but us Kippers are such fearties, we'll do our best to stop it happening, because we're scared me might lose
The Tories are the ones too cowardly to do it this side of the election.
So, because the Tories aren't going to do it this side of the election, you're going to help ensure we don't have one for the foreseeable future.
I'm sure there's a logic behind you position.
Given that the Tories are going to lose the next election regardless, I'm not doing a damn thing to help ensure we don't have one. What I am doing is helping UKIP being successful, so post-2015, the Tories and Labour commit to a referendum for the next election.
Can you understand that many people don't want 5 years of misery on the off chance of something maybe better ?
Oh, because the EU is never an issue for Labour. That's why Gordon Brown had to go and sign Lisbon on his own afterwards?
Come off it, the EU hasn't been an issue for Labour since the days of Michael Foot.
There's been plenty of articles on LabourList about how Labour need to have a referendum as it's hurting them on the doorstep. If you look at the voter and activist base, Labour are far more split on the EU than the Conservatives are. The only reason the Conservatives are split over the thing is because the leadership is out of touch with their own party.
Labour have a disagreement about tactics, but I don't think there's much disagreement about what they want, which is to stay in the EU. I guess your thought is that Con is now majority BOO, but even if that's true there will still be a substantial minority that isn't. The vague, hypothetical renegotiation is designed to allow them to avoid saying that clearly, but they'd have to speak up if it ever got to a point where it was impossible to fudge (eg an actual in-out referendum).
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Doesn't matter your background it's about the policies one advocates and how you interact with people, see Farage and Johnson.
Cameron should escort more ladies back to their hotel rooms at 3am and spill his seed around ?
Can you understand that many people don't want 5 years of misery on the off chance of something maybe better ?
Of course. But we're going to get a Labour (or Labour-led) government. As much as you don't like that, that's what's going to happen. So the question is, how do we best get a eurosceptic, immigration-reducing government after that? And the answer is by pressuring the Tories to stop cavorting with Polly Toynbee and reflect the views of the British public on these matters.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Fairly or not, the biggest single objection to voting Conservative is that they're viewed as the party for rich people, rather than the party for ordinary people.
A party for ordinary people, run by extremely rich people with an agenda.
Look behind the curtain and take a look at the millionaire 'Wizards of Oz' pulling your levers.
Reminiscent of Jimmy Goldsmith, and his cronies.
Yes, you're right. UKIP are just as much toffs as the Tories. You definitely shouldn't change a damn thing about your party to address this clearly false criticism.
A large lead for Labour among employed voters [public: 40-27, private 38-33], but the Conservatives are almost 2:1 ahead with the over-65s.
Traditionally Labour have been seen as the party that spends the money and the Conservatives as the party that pays the bills, but with that strong a generational split it suggests that this is changing. Labour do the work and pay the taxes to support the retired.
This may become more noticeable a political split as the population continues to age.
I think those aged 65 or over, fear that Labour will take some of their benefits away and will means test pension increases in some way. They feel that they have paid into the system and deserve these benefits, even if future generations will probably not be as well off.
Not all older people will vote out of self interest, as they will be concerned about their children and grandchildrens futures. If Labour do have plans to look at a fair budget for all generations, which will mean cutting back on some older age benefits. then they should be upfront about this. I think they will then gain some credit for their honesty.
I don't go on Tumblr but see reports on a TV site and it's hilarious. Some very strange attitudes on there/mob behaviour. It makes Twitter look restrained. I get the impression it's largely dominated by a young demographic and that may explain some of its weirdness.
It was pleasing to see another hacking and slashing centre right government bite the dust yesterday.
Congratulations Sweden.
The big domino remains to be toppled here in May, but it's certainly wobbling...
I should not be too glad, if I were you. The result of the election was a shift to the right, not a shift to the left. The new government has only 43% of the seats in Parliament.
Yes, and the Feminist Party failed to pass the entrance to parliament threshold. Fancy having a party of only female dominatrix' gossiping away in Westminster?....ugh!
Imagine a party founded by Harriet Harman, Julie Bindel, Mary Honeyball, on amphetamines, and you get Feminist Initiative. Their main argument seems to be that there isn't enough authoritarian political correctness in Sweden.
It was pleasing to see another hacking and slashing centre right government bite the dust yesterday.
Congratulations Sweden.
The big domino remains to be toppled here in May, but it's certainly wobbling...
I should not be too glad, if I were you. The result of the election was a shift to the right, not a shift to the left. The new government has only 43% of the seats in Parliament.
Yes, and the Feminist Party failed to pass the entrance to parliament threshold. Fancy having a party of only female dominatrix' gossiping away in Westminster?....ugh!
Imagine a party founded by Harriet Harman, Julie Bindel, Mary Honeyball, on amphetamines, and you get Feminist Initiative. Their main argument seems to be that there isn't enough authoritarian political correctness in Sweden.
Can you understand that many people don't want 5 years of misery on the off chance of something maybe better ?
Of course. But we're going to get a Labour (or Labour-led) government. As much as you don't like that, that's what's going to happen. So the question is, how do we best get a eurosceptic, immigration-reducing government after that? And the answer is by pressuring the Tories to stop cavorting with Polly Toynbee and reflect the views of the British public on these matters.
What a lot of rot - so those comfortable enough to survive another "Labouring" are happy to see the rest of us suffer.
Also if Farage stood down tomorrow saying that he would sit this one out to ensure there was a referendum - Labour would not win.
Carnyx, I think it is very telling that all the comments re Scottish/English on the referendum have all been emanating from England. Very few people ever mention it up here in respect to the referendum.
Do you think there's any link between anti-Englishness and the repeated chanting of "William Wallace" by a large group of Yessers?
There is not and has not been any anti-english sentiment during the referendum campaign, you are putting too much faith in the Daily Mail I think. Plus I have no idea what you are talking about re above , certainly did not register in Scotland, perhaps you were watching Braveheart and got confused between fact and fiction.
Can you understand that many people don't want 5 years of misery on the off chance of something maybe better ?
Of course. But we're going to get a Labour (or Labour-led) government. As much as you don't like that, that's what's going to happen. So the question is, how do we best get a eurosceptic, immigration-reducing government after that? And the answer is by pressuring the Tories to stop cavorting with Polly Toynbee and reflect the views of the British public on these matters.
What a lot of rot - so those comfortable enough to survive another "Labouring" are happy to see the rest of us suffer.
Also if Farage stood down tomorrow saying that he would sit this one out to ensure there was a referendum - Labour would not win.
So - thanks but no thanks.
You're not even listening to my arguments. You're making up what my position is and then arguing against a strawman.
"Not a Scottish/English distinction (whether by birth, residence or state of mind) but a class one primarily - there are quite a few Tories (sensu lato) in Scotland. The voting system of the Scottish Pmt makes this far clearer than Westminster's FPTP."
My impression is that a "TORY" from a Scottish perspective isn't someone on the right or someone who votes Conservative or who even someone who is a member of the Party. It's a description of an altogether darker creature particularly if it has 'ENGLISH' in front of it
Possibly if you have been reading H. P. Lovecroft or talking to SLAB pre-BT (or both at the same time). In my neck of the woods one has to be a bit more sensible than that.
On the other hand, it must be admitted that the Tories (UK) do prefer FPTP, and those that live by the sword die by the sword and all that, so they have, willynilly, pretty much transformed themselves into an English party anyway - give or take a few Welsh seats - by their reluctance to appeal to the Scottish electorate.
And they themselves started claiming that for a Scot to criticise the Tories was a priori to be an anti-English racist - I think about a year back. Though they soon thought better of that.
I remain of my opinion that (at least on the Yes and Scottish side) class and political policy, and self-determination, are far more important considerations than mere Scottish/English distinction, hard as it is to disentangle the latter as the above example shows.
Carnyx, I think it is very telling that all the comments re Scottish/English on the referendum have all been emanating from England. Very few people ever mention it up here in respect to the referendum.
So it would be a complete unionist turnip jessie who plays with dolls who referred to the BBC as the EBC then?
Not you......?
I am very happy to say the BBC is the establishment and is very London biased if not downright liars and poltroons.
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
It may be painful for many Yes voters to accept, but the SNP and Ukip share a founding spasm. It is one that rejects the status quo, that sees only the negative in what exists, that backs away from the values of shared responsibility, fellow-feeling and solidarity, and it is one that could fundamentally change all of our lives. Both are willing to gamble our security, prosperity, influence and key relationships on the basis of a romantic, untested theory.
Now we have dumb and dumber playing tag team. Two blind messiah Tory fans.
From the same article:
Like demagogues everywhere, they attract and make great use of the mob – the two most potent online political armies are the cybernats and the Ukippers. Go onto any newspaper website and look beneath a story about either Scottish independence or the European Union and you will find them there, amassed in great numbers, taking increasingly intemperate swipes at anyone who disagrees with their orthodoxy. These extremist internet warriors are brutal and unpleasant, and they have made the British digital debating space an environment only for those with strong constitutions and iron hides. In Scotland, sadly, they are no longer confined to the digital world.
Can you understand that many people don't want 5 years of misery on the off chance of something maybe better ?
Of course. But we're going to get a Labour (or Labour-led) government. As much as you don't like that, that's what's going to happen. So the question is, how do we best get a eurosceptic, immigration-reducing government after that? And the answer is by pressuring the Tories to stop cavorting with Polly Toynbee and reflect the views of the British public on these matters.
What a lot of rot - so those comfortable enough to survive another "Labouring" are happy to see the rest of us suffer.
Also if Farage stood down tomorrow saying that he would sit this one out to ensure there was a referendum - Labour would not win.
So - thanks but no thanks.
You're not even listening to my arguments. You're making up what my position is and then arguing against a strawman.
You have given up on the election in 2015 - you are passive enough to let Ed be PM - startling.
Fairly or not, the biggest single objection to voting Conservative is that they're viewed as the party for rich people, rather than the party for ordinary people.
Since the begining of time but that hasn't stopped them winning elections, has it? Nor will it in the future.
What tends to be the case in my experience is that people from a poorer background will vote Tory, because they believe that richer folk are better at handling money. They also sometimes back the Tories because they believe it is in their employers interests. For example you have very poor farm workers who will vote Tory, because their employers who own the farms, tend to be Tories and who believe that they are the party that looks after landowners/countryside rights.
A large lead for Labour among employed voters [public: 40-27, private 38-33], but the Conservatives are almost 2:1 ahead with the over-65s.
Traditionally Labour have been seen as the party that spends the money and the Conservatives as the party that pays the bills, but with that strong a generational split it suggests that this is changing. Labour do the work and pay the taxes to support the retired.
This may become more noticeable a political split as the population continues to age.
I think those aged 65 or over, fear that Labour will take some of their benefits away and will means test pension increases in some way. They feel that they have paid into the system and deserve these benefits, even if future generations will probably not be as well off.
I doubt Labour would dare to attack pension benefits as much as the Coalition has. That said I doubt they will reverse the cuts to pension benefits that the Coalition implemented.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Fairly or not, the biggest single objection to voting Conservative is that they're viewed as the party for rich people, rather than the party for ordinary people.
It's extremely fair. The party is run and owned by the rich and acts in their interests. They embraced McMillan's post-war one nation and then Thatcher's free market was in a sense an economic state of mind first and foremost, but now they've obviously gone back to the 19th century. In the world of Mr Piketty, the Tories are there to offer the rebuke.
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Fairly or not, the biggest single objection to voting Conservative is that they're viewed as the party for rich people, rather than the party for ordinary people.
Since the begining of time but that hasn't stopped them winning elections, has it? Nor will it in the future.
Mr. O, I am not sure that the Conservatives have been viewed as the party for rich people since the beginning of time. There was a period, not that long ago, when the Conservatives could win seats in largely working class areas and the big cities of the North. Somewhere along the line they lost that ability. Perhaps it was when, to use Keith Joseph's words, they stopped appealing to the common ground. Whatever the reason, if the Conservatives ever want a majority again they need to get back that ability.
Cameron, who is, in my opinion, a clueless nyaff without a strategic thought in his head and who couldn't lead a squad of duckings across a fire bucket, is not the person the Conservative party needs. Mind you, he is probably the best of the bunch at the moment. The fellow to watch is Sajid Javid, he seems to be bright and have the fire in his belly to do things, my fear is that he will get bored with politics and go off to other fields before he gets his chance.
Meanwhile I must get out and deliver some UKIP leaflets.
"Not a Scottish/English distinction (whether by birth, residence or state of mind) but a class one primarily - there are quite a few Tories (sensu lato) in Scotland. The voting system of the Scottish Pmt makes this far clearer than Westminster's FPTP."
My impression is that a "TORY" from a Scottish perspective isn't someone on the right or someone who votes Conservative or who even someone who is a member of the Party. It's a description of an altogether darker creature particularly if it has 'ENGLISH' in front of it
Possibly if you have been reading H. P. Lovecroft or talking to SLAB pre-BT (or both at the same time). In my neck of the woods one has to be a bit more sensible than that.
On the other hand, it must be admitted that the Tories (UK) do prefer FPTP, and those that live by the sword die by the sword and all that, so they have, willynilly, pretty much transformed themselves into an English party anyway - give or take a few Welsh seats - by their reluctance to appeal to the Scottish electorate.
And they themselves started claiming that for a Scot to criticise the Tories was a priori to be an anti-English racist - I think about a year back. Though they soon thought better of that.
I remain of my opinion that (at least on the Yes and Scottish side) class and political policy, and self-determination, are far more important considerations than mere Scottish/English distinction, hard as it is to disentangle the latter as the above example shows.
Carnyx, I think it is very telling that all the comments re Scottish/English on the referendum have all been emanating from England. Very few people ever mention it up here in respect to the referendum.
So it would be a complete unionist turnip jessie who plays with dolls who referred to the BBC as the EBC then?
Not you......?
I am very happy to say the BBC is the establishment and is very London biased if not downright liars and poltroons.
Yet James Cook of the BBC is running a one man PPB for Eck on the news 24/7...
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Toff = "successful person that doesn't support my protectionist anti-free market party"
Like "Westminster" = English.
I though Toff meant in Kipper speak = Chap who is giving us a referendum on the EU, but us Kippers are such fearties, we'll do our best to stop it happening, because we're scared me might lose
The Tories are the ones too cowardly to do it this side of the election.
So, because the Tories aren't going to do it this side of the election, you're going to help ensure we don't have one for the foreseeable future.
I'm sure there's a logic behind you position.
For me it's a matter of Common Sense v Common Purpose
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
Carnyx, I think it is very telling that all the comments re Scottish/English on the referendum have all been emanating from England. Very few people ever mention it up here in respect to the referendum.
Do you think there's any link between anti-Englishness and the repeated chanting of "William Wallace" by a large group of Yessers?
That chant actually surprised me very considerably. It's so unusual. It's the first time I have seen the breach of my Law of Braveheart: only the No side ever mention Braveheart, Bannockburn, etc., in indyref (though the Declaration of Arbroath is a different matter). I'd want to see a few more examples before saying Yes to you (so to speak). I've seen quite a few invocations of Keir Hardie, for instance.
In the absence of other evidence, it seems that they were primarily concerned with Scottish independence rather than anti-Englishness. To complain about the latter is in any case, perhaps to suggest that our English visitors in the 1290s were merely having a rather energetic adventure holiday - and one recalls Ian Davidson MP's shocked complaint about the dastardly locals murdering a later group of English tourists near Stirling in 1214. There is a nice French saying: "Cet animal est très méchant. Quand on l'attaque il se défend." But I'm now returning to the 21st century, if I may.
Anti-Englishness in Scotland shouldn't be complained about because we invaded you over 700 years ago? Is there a similar anti-Scandinavian feeling too? Or were the Vikings & Norway definitely on an adventure holiday in Scotland?
There's definitely a significant proportion of English who are anti-Scottish, and I'm sure we'd see it more to the fore if England was having a parallel vote on your secession. The utter denial of the equivalent in Scotland, and its significance to the Yes campaign, is quite amusing to me.
Exactly. My parents came from nothing, we lived above the shop. My parents were *desperate* to become *upper middle class* as that summarised their ambitions to be cultured, well off and respected.
That meant voting Tory. I really don't understand why so many find this incomprehensible. Who doesn't want to get on? Labour's current problem is that bar Tory Tony, they want their voters to remain victims.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Fairly or not, the biggest single objection to voting Conservative is that they're viewed as the party for rich people, rather than the party for ordinary people.
Since the begining of time but that hasn't stopped them winning elections, has it? Nor will it in the future.
A large lead for Labour among employed voters [public: 40-27, private 38-33], but the Conservatives are almost 2:1 ahead with the over-65s.
Traditionally Labour have been seen as the party that spends the money and the Conservatives as the party that pays the bills, but with that strong a generational split it suggests that this is changing. Labour do the work and pay the taxes to support the retired.
This may become more noticeable a political split as the population continues to age.
I think those aged 65 or over, fear that Labour will take some of their benefits away and will means test pension increases in some way. They feel that they have paid into the system and deserve these benefits, even if future generations will probably not be as well off.
I doubt Labour would dare to attack pension benefits as much as the Coalition has. That said I doubt they will reverse the cuts to pension benefits that the Coalition implemented.
What pension changes in particular would affect pensioners voting for coalition parties ?
I thought Steve Webbs reforms were quite popular, if a bit stupid in my opinion.
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Particularly when UKIP are bankrolled by Old Etonian, Jacobean castle dwelling, Stuart Wheeler
Toff = "successful person that doesn't support my protectionist anti-free market party"
Like "Westminster" = English.
I though Toff meant in Kipper speak = Chap who is giving us a referendum on the EU, but us Kippers are such fearties, we'll do our best to stop it happening, because we're scared me might lose
The Tories are the ones too cowardly to do it this side of the election.
So, because the Tories aren't going to do it this side of the election, you're going to help ensure we don't have one for the foreseeable future.
I'm sure there's a logic behind you position.
For me it's a matter of Common Sense v Common Purpose
But you're someone who once showed his true colours by initially saying the EDL were the voice of reason.
A large lead for Labour among employed voters [public: 40-27, private 38-33], but the Conservatives are almost 2:1 ahead with the over-65s.
Traditionally Labour have been seen as the party that spends the money and the Conservatives as the party that pays the bills, but with that strong a generational split it suggests that this is changing. Labour do the work and pay the taxes to support the retired.
This may become more noticeable a political split as the population continues to age.
I think those aged 65 or over, fear that Labour will take some of their benefits away and will means test pension increases in some way. They feel that they have paid into the system and deserve these benefits, even if future generations will probably not be as well off.
I doubt Labour would dare to attack pension benefits as much as the Coalition has. That said I doubt they will reverse the cuts to pension benefits that the Coalition implemented.
What pension changes in particular would affect pensioners voting for coalition parties ?
I thought Steve Webbs reforms were quite popular, if a bit stupid in my opinion.
Steve Webb's reforms have no impact at all on pensioners. Increasing pension benefits by CPI rather than RPI, on the other hand, has wiped billions off pensioners' expected incomes.
Carnyx, I think it is very telling that all the comments re Scottish/English on the referendum have all been emanating from England. Very few people ever mention it up here in respect to the referendum.
Do you think there's any link between anti-Englishness and the repeated chanting of "William Wallace" by a large group of Yessers?
There is not and has not been any anti-english sentiment during the referendum campaign, you are putting too much faith in the Daily Mail I think. Plus I have no idea what you are talking about re above , certainly did not register in Scotland, perhaps you were watching Braveheart and got confused between fact and fiction.
Yesterday outside the BBC Alba building, at least 3 times. Unless the BBC Bias protestors were Unionists in disguise?
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
But enough about the Ulster Unionists
So sad to see the greens picking on minorities unable to defend themselves ;-)
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
But enough about the Ulster Unionists
So sad to see the greens picking on minorities unable to defend themselves ;-)
Shall we pick on the KKK affiliated Orange Order instead ?
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
But enough about the Ulster Unionists
So sad to see the greens picking on minorities unable to defend themselves ;-)
You get me wrong - I support them and their curious ways!
It's not a large group. It's a vocal minority. It's a problem that needs dealing with but it's an issue with certain communities rather than immigration as a whole.
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
Carnyx, I think it is very telling that all the comments re Scottish/English on the referendum have all been emanating from England. Very few people ever mention it up here in respect to the referendum.
Do you think there's any link between anti-Englishness and the repeated chanting of "William Wallace" by a large group of Yessers?
That chant actually surprised me very considerably. It's so unusual. It's the first time I have seen the breach of my Law of Braveheart: only the No side ever mention Braveheart, Bannockburn, etc., in indyref (though the Declaration of Arbroath is a different matter). I'd want to see a few more examples before saying Yes to you (so to speak). I've seen quite a few invocations of Keir Hardie, for instance.
In the absence of other evidence, it seems that they were primarily concerned with Scottish independence rather than anti-Englishness. To complain about the latter is in any case, perhaps to suggest that our English visitors in the 1290s were merely having a rather energetic adventure holiday - and one recalls Ian Davidson MP's shocked complaint about the dastardly locals murdering a later group of English tourists near Stirling in 1214. There is a nice French saying: "Cet animal est très méchant. Quand on l'attaque il se défend." But I'm now returning to the 21st century, if I may.
Anti-Englishness in Scotland shouldn't be complained about because we invaded you over 700 years ago? Is there a similar anti-Scandinavian feeling too? Or were the Vikings & Norway definitely on an adventure holiday in Scotland?
There's definitely a significant proportion of English who are anti-Scottish, and I'm sure we'd see it more to the fore if England was having a parallel vote on your secession. The utter denial of the equivalent in Scotland, and its significance to the Yes campaign, is quite amusing to me.
You were the one who was cpmplaining about a mention of Wallace - and I was putting that into context.
If anti-Englishness were as common as you imply you wouldn't see so many English incomers in the Yes campaign and the SNP.
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
Do they not have logic where you come from? "Some non-integrating communities do not cause any problems" does not imply "all non-integrating communities do not cause any problems".
And are you also starved of reliable news sources? The issue is not about individuals, it is about organised groups.
And I seriously, seriously doubt that isam wants to "totally absolve [the perpetrators in Rotherham] of any sense of personal responsibility.
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
But enough about the Ulster Unionists
So sad to see the greens picking on minorities unable to defend themselves ;-)
You get me wrong - I support them and their curious ways!
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
But enough about the Ulster Unionists
So sad to see the greens picking on minorities unable to defend themselves ;-)
Shall we pick on the KKK affiliated Orange Order instead ?
Wasn't the image Stuart Dickson posted a spoof, that he believed to be real?
The notion of a Ukip/Tory coalition government may have a superficial appeal to the rabid right but the Tory party has benefited,as Robert Halfon said,from the loss of the more racist,islamaphobic,and homophobic element to Ukip,"cleansing"the Tory party from its nasty party image.This helped the Tories win Newark.A pact with Ukip means the Tories re-occupy the toxic zone of bigotry and prejudice.From Ukip's point of view,or any other party looking to go into coalition,the experience of the weaker party across Europe is that they get stuffed in the same way the L/Ds have here-the same fate would await Ukip.
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
But enough about the Ulster Unionists
So sad to see the greens picking on minorities unable to defend themselves ;-)
Shall we pick on the KKK affiliated Orange Order instead ?
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
Was there a mass migration of Chinese people? Are there vast areas of whole cities that are predominantly Chinese with Chinese dominated councils? Chinese is about a sixth of the size if the Muslim population, jewish population about a tenth. Chinatown in London is basically about three streets, before you start using that as a false comparison. Likewise with ultra conservative Jews. The nationalities/religion you cite are incomparable with the Muslim population, terrible argument.
Maybe you should just realise that I wasn't being racist or xenophobic and apologise?
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
But enough about the Ulster Unionists
So sad to see the greens picking on minorities unable to defend themselves ;-)
You get me wrong - I support them and their curious ways!
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
But enough about the Ulster Unionists
So sad to see the greens picking on minorities unable to defend themselves ;-)
Shall we pick on the KKK affiliated Orange Order instead ?
Proportionately the OO have more black members than the conservatives.
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
Was there a mass migration of Chinese people? Are there vast areas of whole cities that are predominantly Chinese with Chinese dominated councils? Chinese is about a tenth of the size if the Muslim population. Chinatown in London is basically about three streets, before you start using that as a false comparison. Likewise with ultra conservative Jews. The nationalities/religion you cite are incomparable with the Muslim population, terrible argument.
Maybe you should just realise that I wasn't being racist or xenophobic and apologise?
There are very large ethnic Chinese populations in Australia that are well integrated.
Carnyx, I think it is very telling that all the comments re Scottish/English on the referendum have all been emanating from England. Very few people ever mention it up here in respect to the referendum.
Do you think there's any link between anti-Englishness and the repeated chanting of "William Wallace" by a large group of Yessers?
That chant actually surprised me very considerably. It's so unusual. It's the first time I have seen the breach of my Law of Braveheart: only the No side ever mention Braveheart, Bannockburn, etc., in indyref (though the Declaration of Arbroath is a different matter). I'd want to see a few more examples before saying Yes to you (so to speak). I've seen quite a few invocations of Keir Hardie, for instance.
In the absence of other evidence, it seems that they were primarily concerned with Scottish independence rather than anti-Englishness. To complain about the latter is in any case, perhaps to suggest that our English visitors in the 1290s were merely having a rather energetic adventure holiday - and one recalls Ian Davidson MP's shocked complaint about the dastardly locals murdering a later group of English tourists near Stirling in 1214. There is a nice French saying: "Cet animal est très méchant. Quand on l'attaque il se défend." But I'm now returning to the 21st century, if I may.
Anti-Englishness in Scotland shouldn't be complained about because we invaded you over 700 years ago? Is there a similar anti-Scandinavian feeling too? Or were the Vikings & Norway definitely on an adventure holiday in Scotland?
There's definitely a significant proportion of English who are anti-Scottish, and I'm sure we'd see it more to the fore if England was having a parallel vote on your secession. The utter denial of the equivalent in Scotland, and its significance to the Yes campaign, is quite amusing to me.
You were the one who was cpmplaining about a mention of Wallace - and I was putting that into context.
If anti-Englishness were as common as you imply you wouldn't see so many English incomers in the Yes campaign and the SNP.
"A mention of Wallace" is a little different to the repeated chanting of his name by secessionists, no? And I wasn't complaining about it; I observed it, reported it, and asked a question of a Nat about it.
It's really neither here nor there; whether the idea that there is anti-Englishness in the Yes campaign is true or not, and whether we agree on it or not, won't make a scintilla of difference to the result. It's just the denial of it that amuses me.
Was there a mass migration of Chinese people? Are there vast areas of whole cities that are predominantly Chinese with Chinese dominated councils? Chinese is about a tenth of the size if the Muslim population. Chinatown in London is basically about three streets, before you start using that as a false comparison. Likewise with ultra conservative Jews. The nationalities/religion you cite are incomparable with the Muslim population, terrible argument.
Maybe you should just realise that I wasn't being racist or xenophobic and apologise?
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
The Chinese are very good at integrating after the first generation. The intermarriage rates are many, many times higher than that of Muslims.
Orthodox Jews are the opposite. They're really, really bad at integrating, but they only exist in small numbers, so it's not much of an issue.
But I think I agree with your overall point to some extent. In reality, the problem is a combination of the integration rate of a particular group, the scale of immigration from that group, and the recentness of immigration. The biggest problems we have is with certain groups that take forever to integrate, have come here in huge numbers, and are perpetually coming over because they bring in brides from the homeland every generation.
Was there a mass migration of Chinese people? Are there vast areas of whole cities that are predominantly Chinese with Chinese dominated councils? Chinese is about a tenth of the size if the Muslim population. Chinatown in London is basically about three streets, before you start using that as a false comparison. Likewise with ultra conservative Jews. The nationalities/religion you cite are incomparable with the Muslim population, terrible argument.
Maybe you should just realise that I wasn't being racist or xenophobic and apologise?
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
But enough about the Ulster Unionists
So sad to see the greens picking on minorities unable to defend themselves ;-)
Shall we pick on the KKK affiliated Orange Order instead ?
Wasn't the image Stuart Dickson posted a spoof, that he believed to be real?
Wait - Stuart has ever posted something that wasn't a spoof ?
I have him and malc down as MI5 agents. Their code names are probably "Stakeknife" and "Butterknife"
[snipped] You were the one who was cpmplaining about a mention of Wallace - and I was putting that into context.
If anti-Englishness were as common as you imply you wouldn't see so many English incomers in the Yes campaign and the SNP.
"A mention of Wallace" is a little different to the repeated chanting of his name by secessionists, no? And I wasn't complaining about it; I observed it, reported it, and asked a question of a Nat about it.
It's really neither here nor there; whether the idea that there is anti-Englishness in the Yes campaign is true or not, and whether we agree on it or not, won't make a scintilla of difference to the result. It's just the denial of it that amuses me.
I've checked back to something I read some time ago and here it is - from as much of a neutral observer as one can get in the media those days (even if Iain Macwhirter has moved over to Yes lately):
"But whatever happened to the Tartan Monster, as the writer Tom Nairn used to call it. That narrow-minded and introverted Scottish nationalism that celebrated mediocrity and nourished itself on resentment of England? It’s not all that long ago that the annual Scotland versus England football fixture had to be abandoned for fear of tartan hordes rioting and smashing the goal posts at Wembley.
Well, I’m beginning to wonder if that kind of emotional nationalism still exists in Scotland. Like homophobia and anti-English racialism – which again metropolitan commentators insist is on the rise despite all evidence to the contrary – it largely died out after the creation of the Scottish Parliament. But what about the evil cybernats, supposedly lurking in social media ready to vent bile upon famous female authors and persons of English origin?. Where are they? If the Usain Bolt story in The Times was an attempt to provoke some cybernat anger, it failed. Their impact was always greatly exaggerated and more than equalled by the virulently anti-Scottish and anti-Yes trolling that for some reason the Scottish and UK press rarely report.
So if Scots have set aside childish things, does that mean their national identity is no longer an issue in Scottish politics? No, I don’t think so. As I have argued before, it is being expressed in a different form – in the language of secular politics rather than national chauvinism. Scotland increasingly thinks of itself as a country defined by social democratic values – what the cultural historian Billy Kay calls Scotland’s “rampant egalitarian traditions”. Like all myths, this one probably doesn’t stand up to too much critical examination – but if you have to have national myths, I can think of worse ones."
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
But enough about the Ulster Unionists
So sad to see the greens picking on minorities unable to defend themselves ;-)
Shall we pick on the KKK affiliated Orange Order instead ?
Wasn't the image Stuart Dickson posted a spoof?
It was, very obviously.
It had horrible jarring artefacts along the banner edge, screamed bad digital manipulation at even a cursory glance
In the UK, 21% of married Chinese-descent people have married outside their ethnic group. 4% of those of Pakistani-descent have, and 3% of those of Bangladeshi-descent.
I've checked back to something I read some time ago and here it is - from as much of a neutral observer as one can get in the media those days (even if Iain Macwhirter has moved over to Yes lately):
"But whatever happened to the Tartan Monster, as the writer Tom Nairn used to call it. That narrow-minded and introverted Scottish nationalism that celebrated mediocrity and nourished itself on resentment of England? It’s not all that long ago that the annual Scotland versus England football fixture had to be abandoned for fear of tartan hordes rioting and smashing the goal posts at Wembley.
Well, I’m beginning to wonder if that kind of emotional nationalism still exists in Scotland. Like homophobia and anti-English racialism – which again metropolitan commentators insist is on the rise despite all evidence to the contrary – it largely died out after the creation of the Scottish Parliament. But what about the evil cybernats, supposedly lurking in social media ready to vent bile upon famous female authors and persons of English origin?. Where are they? If the Usain Bolt story in The Times was an attempt to provoke some cybernat anger, it failed. Their impact was always greatly exaggerated and more than equalled by the virulently anti-Scottish and anti-Yes trolling that for some reason the Scottish and UK press rarely report.
So if Scots have set aside childish things, does that mean their national identity is no longer an issue in Scottish politics? No, I don’t think so. As I have argued before, it is being expressed in a different form – in the language of secular politics rather than national chauvinism. Scotland increasingly thinks of itself as a country defined by social democratic values – what the cultural historian Billy Kay calls Scotland’s “rampant egalitarian traditions”. Like all myths, this one probably doesn’t stand up to too much critical examination – but if you have to have national myths, I can think of worse ones."
Westminster Election Labour 38% +2 Conservative 23% -2 UKIP 17% +15.6 Plaid Cymru 11% -0.3 Liberal Democrat 6% -14 Green 5%
Change since 2010.
Not much movement in top two, Tories holding ground in Wales equally or maybe a bit better than nationally. UKIP replacing the Lib Dems as third party. Plaid surprisingly not getting any boost from Scotland.
Extraordinary that UKIP can be up 15% and the Tories only down 2%.
This is because the Cameroon diagnosis was only half-right. Yes, the Tories have been toxic, but in a completely different way to what the commentariat think. Their problem with the broader electorate wasn't that they were seen as a bit racist and homophobic. It was that they were seen as being culturally elitist and looking out for rich people. Thus they had a ceiling in the working class where they could only get half of the working class right wing vote. Now UKIP are here, the working class is flocking to vote for a right-wing party that doesn't have the toff dogma about them.
"Toff dogma"? Rubbish comment.
Fairly or not, the biggest single objection to voting Conservative is that they're viewed as the party for rich people, rather than the party for ordinary people.
A party for ordinary people, run by extremely rich people with an agenda.
Look behind the curtain and take a look at the millionaire 'Wizards of Oz' pulling your levers.
The Chinese live in large numbers here and don't cause any problems, same goes for ultra conservative Jews, and both those communities are not great at integrating into UK society. The English could go in large numbers somewhere and it would be fine. Broadly saying that immigration is in itself a problem is itself lazy, the issue is always individuals and how individuals behave, the problem we have in this day and age is that people like you just go "oh it's all immigrations fault" and totally absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility (and you've aligned yourself with the loony left here in this respect.).
Where's the xenophobia? Could you point it out? The same problem would have existed if the same amount of English people went somewhere in the world and dominated large areas.
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
I'd have thought the issue is more that we have a large group who not only don't want to integrate but who also expect everybody else to change their behaviour in order to accomodate them.
But enough about the Ulster Unionists
So sad to see the greens picking on minorities unable to defend themselves ;-)
Shall we pick on the KKK affiliated Orange Order instead ?
Wasn't the image Stuart Dickson posted a spoof?
It was, very obviously.
It had horrible jarring artefacts along the banner edge, screamed bad digital manipulation at even a cursory glance
I only saw it for the first time late last night, and as you say, a cursory glance shows it wasn't right
In among all of this gnashing of teeth about the Sweden Democrats, in Germany the march of the populist right has continued, AfD won over 10% of the vote in two key local elections. They did it on a platform of local issues, anti EU, reduction in unskilled immigration, and most controversial, introduction of a referendum to build new mosques. The latter policy is one I think UKIP could use to great effect in the north.
In the UK, 21% of married Chinese-descent people have married outside their ethnic group. 4% of those of Pakistani-descent have, and 3% of those of Bangladeshi-descent.
Many people were expecting Murdoch to come out with a Yes/No endorsement today - it looks like he's fence sitting an will wait till the Wednesday polls are out.
I am still vexed by the high price of Yes on Betfair.
Many people were expecting Murdoch to come out with a Yes/No endorsement today - it looks like he's fence sitting an will wait till the Wednesday polls are out.
I am still vexed by the high price of Yes on Betfair.
Many people were expecting Murdoch to come out with a Yes/No endorsement today - it looks like he's fence sitting an will wait till the Wednesday polls are out.
I am still vexed by the high price of Yes on Betfair.
Given the sums matched, against normal political markets, I'm assuming the people betting are political savvy/newbies with more money than sense.
If the people who normally bet on politics had exclusively bet after the ICM Phone poll, that would have led to a much different price on betfair.
Murdoch's left it too late now. I guess everyones internal polling is showing it neck and neck because I'm sure he'd have picked a winner by now if he could.
Many people were expecting Murdoch to come out with a Yes/No endorsement today - it looks like he's fence sitting an will wait till the Wednesday polls are out.
I am still vexed by the high price of Yes on Betfair.
Comments
But I wouldn't dismiss the protest vote... It's as justifiable a cause for voting as any other
Traditionally Labour have been seen as the party that spends the money and the Conservatives as the party that pays the bills, but with that strong a generational split it suggests that this is changing. Labour do the work and pay the taxes to support the retired.
This may become more noticeable a political split as the population continues to age.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxkCn2RIIAEbnRP.jpg
Like "Westminster" = English.
I'm sure there's a logic behind you position.
And just look what a united Conservative party achieved against a divided Labour party...
It's an argument on logic and human nature, and not based at all on xenophobia or an idea that British or English or white, whatever you want to say, is better or best
Open your mind and stop thinking lazily
In the absence of other evidence, it seems that they were primarily concerned with Scottish independence rather than anti-Englishness. To complain about the latter is in any case, perhaps to suggest that our English visitors in the 1290s were merely having a rather energetic adventure holiday - and one recalls Ian Davidson MP's shocked complaint about the dastardly locals murdering a later group of English tourists near Stirling in 1214. There is a nice French saying: "Cet animal est très méchant. Quand on l'attaque il se défend." But I'm now returning to the 21st century, if I may.
Look behind the curtain and take a look at the millionaire 'Wizards of Oz' pulling your levers.
Reminiscent of Jimmy Goldsmith, and his cronies.
I see where he is going wrong now.
Not all older people will vote out of self interest, as they will be concerned about their children and grandchildrens futures. If Labour do have plans to look at a fair budget for all generations, which will mean cutting back on some older age benefits. then they should be upfront about this. I think they will then gain some credit for their honesty.
I don't go on Tumblr but see reports on a TV site and it's hilarious. Some very strange attitudes on there/mob behaviour. It makes Twitter look restrained. I get the impression it's largely dominated by a young demographic and that may explain some of its weirdness.
Also if Farage stood down tomorrow saying that he would sit this one out to ensure there was a referendum - Labour would not win.
So - thanks but no thanks.
Plus I have no idea what you are talking about re above , certainly did not register in Scotland, perhaps you were watching Braveheart and got confused between fact and fiction.
Since the begining of time but that hasn't stopped them winning elections, has it? Nor will it in the future.
What tends to be the case in my experience is that people from a poorer background will vote Tory, because they believe that richer folk are better at handling money. They also sometimes back the Tories because they believe it is in their employers interests. For example you have very poor farm workers who will vote Tory, because their employers who own the farms, tend to be Tories and who believe that they are the party that looks after landowners/countryside rights.
Cameron, who is, in my opinion, a clueless nyaff without a strategic thought in his head and who couldn't lead a squad of duckings across a fire bucket, is not the person the Conservative party needs. Mind you, he is probably the best of the bunch at the moment. The fellow to watch is Sajid Javid, he seems to be bright and have the fire in his belly to do things, my fear is that he will get bored with politics and go off to other fields before he gets his chance.
Meanwhile I must get out and deliver some UKIP leaflets.
There's definitely a significant proportion of English who are anti-Scottish, and I'm sure we'd see it more to the fore if England was having a parallel vote on your secession. The utter denial of the equivalent in Scotland, and its significance to the Yes campaign, is quite amusing to me.
That meant voting Tory. I really don't understand why so many find this incomprehensible. Who doesn't want to get on? Labour's current problem is that bar Tory Tony, they want their voters to remain victims.
I'm not a victim. .
I thought Steve Webbs reforms were quite popular, if a bit stupid in my opinion.
I'm glad the Tory party doesn't appeal to you.
If anti-Englishness were as common as you imply you wouldn't see so many English incomers in the Yes campaign and the SNP.
And are you also starved of reliable news sources? The issue is not about individuals, it is about organised groups.
And I seriously, seriously doubt that isam wants to "totally absolve [the perpetrators in Rotherham] of any sense of personal responsibility.
Otherwise good post.
Maybe you should just realise that I wasn't being racist or xenophobic and apologise?
And I cant surf
It's really neither here nor there; whether the idea that there is anti-Englishness in the Yes campaign is true or not, and whether we agree on it or not, won't make a scintilla of difference to the result. It's just the denial of it that amuses me.
Points To Note:
1) Wales still incorporated with Labour lead;
2) UKIP substantially down-weighted by pollster.
Orthodox Jews are the opposite. They're really, really bad at integrating, but they only exist in small numbers, so it's not much of an issue.
But I think I agree with your overall point to some extent. In reality, the problem is a combination of the integration rate of a particular group, the scale of immigration from that group, and the recentness of immigration. The biggest problems we have is with certain groups that take forever to integrate, have come here in huge numbers, and are perpetually coming over because they bring in brides from the homeland every generation.
I have him and malc down as MI5 agents. Their code names are probably "Stakeknife" and "Butterknife"
"But whatever happened to the Tartan Monster, as the writer Tom Nairn used to call it. That narrow-minded and introverted Scottish nationalism that celebrated mediocrity and nourished itself on resentment of England? It’s not all that long ago that the annual Scotland versus England football fixture had to be abandoned for fear of tartan hordes rioting and smashing the goal posts at Wembley.
Well, I’m beginning to wonder if that kind of emotional nationalism still exists in Scotland. Like homophobia and anti-English racialism – which again metropolitan commentators insist is on the rise despite all evidence to the contrary – it largely died out after the creation of the Scottish Parliament. But what about the evil cybernats, supposedly lurking in social media ready to vent bile upon famous female authors and persons of English origin?. Where are they? If the Usain Bolt story in The Times was an attempt to provoke some cybernat anger, it failed. Their impact was always greatly exaggerated and more than equalled by the virulently anti-Scottish and anti-Yes trolling that for some reason the Scottish and UK press rarely report.
So if Scots have set aside childish things, does that mean their national identity is no longer an issue in Scottish politics? No, I don’t think so. As I have argued before, it is being expressed in a different form – in the language of secular politics rather than national chauvinism. Scotland increasingly thinks of itself as a country defined by social democratic values – what the cultural historian Billy Kay calls Scotland’s “rampant egalitarian traditions”. Like all myths, this one probably doesn’t stand up to too much critical examination – but if you have to have national myths, I can think of worse ones."
http://iainmacwhirter.wordpress.com/2014/09/06/back-pages-whatever-happened-to-the-tartan-monster/
Ukip 1/10 to win clacton...
It's politicalbetting...
But let's go with Ukip 0
I am still vexed by the high price of Yes on Betfair.
If the people who normally bet on politics had exclusively bet after the ICM Phone poll, that would have led to a much different price on betfair.
Why delay the inevitable? Muslims will soon outnumber others in some communities anyway.