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  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 1m

    I am told that Panelbase has an IndyRef poll in the field that will be out in a day or so

    Is this a different one from the supposed Yes lead one?
    Pass
    Can't wait for these two weeks to be over, travelling, moving house, and Scottish indyref. Argh!!!!!!
    Where are you moving to?
    To Berkeley, near San Francisco!
    I like San Francisco.
    I'll send you a photo!
    I might be coming to California end of October/start of November for a holiday
    I suppose it only makes sense to schedule your hols immediately after OGH returns, given that nothing happens when he is away (TM). ;-)
    Yeah, is the indyref's fault.

    Mike normally goes on holiday end of August/Start of September, this year, because of the events in Scotland, he had to delay it.
    Well I hope you have a relaxing time, the weather supposedly stays nice through Thanksgiving, so you'll be in luck!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    More people live in the West Midlands region than Scotland. I bet most Scottish people don't know that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    RodCrosby said:

    So the Tory line in 2015, aside from anything else, has to be.

    "How can a government propped up by Scottish MPs possibly get the best deal for rUK?"

    That might work I suppose, although couldn't also spur on Labour supporters in England to ensure they get a majority there too, not that need that much motivating I would hope.

    Night all
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RodCrosby said:

    So the Tory line in 2015, aside from anything else, has to be.

    "How can a government propped up by Scottish MPs possibly get the best deal for rUK?"

    You giving up on 'no', Rod?
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Oops! I should stay off the Yorkshire tea.
    Carnyx said:

    I know that. Even the numpty, Scottish, kipper MEP had the nous to campaign for Yes in London, i.e., out of harm's way.

    HYUFD said:

    oldlabour Brian Souter is a big Yes backer, so that will boost No!

    Didn't read about the UKIP MEP supporting Yes ... not a mistake is it?

  • FPT:

    Itajai said:

    taffys said:

    ''Visas for marriage/partnership by country:''

    What's your plan? Deny Marriage/Partnership VISAs to certain countries and not others?

    That is what it would take, given your figures.

    And religions.

    The British polity is not there yet. But it might yet get there.
    Okay, here's a question. How do you test someone's religion? Do you get them to sign a form saying (I am muslim, Jewish, Christian etc)? What is to stop them lying? Will you have police checking people who go into mosques, synagogues, churches etc?

    It is fairly straightforward if the applicant claims they have got a job: it can be checked.
    It is fairly straightforward if the applicant claims they are married: it can be checked.

    But how do you check an applicant for religion?

    After much thought on this trying to work out all the angles (seriously) I have come to the same answer I suspect you have come to.

    Why would you want to?

    Or maybe a better question should be

    Why should you be able to?

    I honestly can't see any legitimate reason why ... unless of course the job they were applying for was Vicar/Priest/Imam/Rabbi/Chief Cullender in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
  • TSE, you missed two good ones today, a neatly matched pair of stories of betrayal and bitterness:

    She [Valerie Trierweiler] also takes a swipe at Mr Hollande's Socialist credentials, claiming that while he has created an image of disliking the rich, "in reality the president doesn't like the poor".

    "He, the man of the left, talks about "the toothless ones" in private, very proud of his humorous streak."

    The hashtag "SansDents" fast became a top-trending French-language topic on Twitter on Wednesday just behind "Trierweiler".


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29042867

    and

    [Roger Lord] claimed UKIP leader Mr Farage had "crushed me, made me look an idiot, turned my career to dust".

    Mr Lord said he had been given no warning about Mr Carswell's decision.

    "I was speaking to Nigel Farage three weeks ago, talking about my plans in Clacton, what I was intending to do," he said.

    "He knew what was going to happen and he didn't flinch."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-29045467

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    So the Tory line in 2015, aside from anything else, has to be.

    "How can a government propped up by Scottish MPs possibly get the best deal for rUK?"

    You giving up on 'no', Rod?
    Course not. I just love wandering down constitutional labyrinths... (^_-)
  • AndyJS said:

    Mr. Jessop, circumcision?

    That wouldn't work, loads of Anglo-Saxon men have been circumcised as a sort of middle-class affectation. Nothing to do with religion.
    Very commonly circumcision is also used for medical reasons.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 1m

    I am told that Panelbase has an IndyRef poll in the field that will be out in a day or so

    Is this a different one from the supposed Yes lead one?
    Pass
    Can't wait for these two weeks to be over, travelling, moving house, and Scottish indyref. Argh!!!!!!
    Where are you moving to?
    To Berkeley, near San Francisco!
    I like San Francisco.
    I'll send you a photo!
    I might be coming to California end of October/start of November for a holiday
    I suppose it only makes sense to schedule your hols immediately after OGH returns, given that nothing happens when he is away (TM). ;-)
    Yeah, is the indyref's fault.

    Mike normally goes on holiday end of August/Start of September, this year, because of the events in Scotland, he had to delay it.
    Well I hope you have a relaxing time, the weather supposedly stays nice through Thanksgiving, so you'll be in luck!
    Cheers, anything to avoid doing Christmas shopping in New York
  • Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    So the Tory line in 2015, aside from anything else, has to be.

    "How can a government propped up by Scottish MPs possibly get the best deal for rUK?"

    You giving up on 'no', Rod?

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting fact:

    3 of the top 5 hotels in Birmingham are Premier Inns according to TripAdvisor:

    http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotels-g186402-Birmingham_West_Midlands_England-Hotels.html

    Even if you believe in the many-worlds theory, in not one of those universes is that an interesting fact.
    I dunno.. tells you something of the relative quality of Birmingham's hotels, very few luxury options, unless these aren't listed on tripadvisor.
    Birmingham has some very decent hotels, better than those Premier Inns
    RodCrosby said:

    So the Tory line in 2015, aside from anything else, has to be.

    "How can a government propped up by Scottish MPs possibly get the best deal for rUK?"

    Lab largest party and a Yes is your forecast?
  • AndyJS said:

    There are plenty of luxury hotels in Birmingham. For some reason TripAdvisor reviewers don't seem to like them.

    Luxury does not mean good. Many so-called luxury hotels are soulless chains where you can't open the windows.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Thirsk & Malton UKIP selects Toby Horton as GE2015 candidate:

    http://www.ukip-tm.org.uk/ukip-thirsk-malton-adopt-prospective-parliamentary-candidate/
  • FPT:

    Itajai said:

    taffys said:

    ''Visas for marriage/partnership by country:''

    What's your plan? Deny Marriage/Partnership VISAs to certain countries and not others?

    That is what it would take, given your figures.

    And religions.

    The British polity is not there yet. But it might yet get there.
    Okay, here's a question. How do you test someone's religion? Do you get them to sign a form saying (I am muslim, Jewish, Christian etc)? What is to stop them lying? Will you have police checking people who go into mosques, synagogues, churches etc?

    It is fairly straightforward if the applicant claims they have got a job: it can be checked.
    It is fairly straightforward if the applicant claims they are married: it can be checked.

    But how do you check an applicant for religion?

    After much thought on this trying to work out all the angles (seriously) I have come to the same answer I suspect you have come to.

    Why would you want to?

    Or maybe a better question should be

    Why should you be able to?

    I honestly can't see any legitimate reason why ... unless of course the job they were applying for was Vicar/Priest/Imam/Rabbi/Chief Cullender in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
    It might be useful to check that an applicant believes in science instead.
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited September 2014
    [Roger Lord] claimed UKIP leader Mr Farage had "crushed me, made me look an idiot, turned my career to dust".

    I think his hysterical outbursts are what turned his political career to dust. Will anyone want a candidate who publicly on national television threatens defection in a fit of pique and threatens a new colleague with physical violence even if he is a rival.

    Clearly Farage was not going to tell anyone what was going on beforehand for fear of leaks and from the sounds of it there wasn't any real opportunity to work through an outcome that would have satisfied all parties because Lord had already gone public

    I suspect if Lord had kept his counsel , taken it on the chin and just quietly worked with the UKIP HO as you would expect from someone who aspired to represent his constituency at national level he would probably have earned himself a decent candidacy as compensation. As it is who would want such a reactionary and volatile candidate? The Tories perhaps.....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2014
    Matthew Paris calls for 30-40 Tory MPs to defect to UKIP. Although he doesn't think they will.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Carswell on Newsnight, didn't seem comfortable with the whole racism, anti-immigrant UKIP thing.
  • HanDodges said:

    FPT:

    Itajai said:

    taffys said:

    ''Visas for marriage/partnership by country:''

    What's your plan? Deny Marriage/Partnership VISAs to certain countries and not others?

    That is what it would take, given your figures.

    And religions.

    The British polity is not there yet. But it might yet get there.
    Okay, here's a question. How do you test someone's religion? Do you get them to sign a form saying (I am muslim, Jewish, Christian etc)? What is to stop them lying? Will you have police checking people who go into mosques, synagogues, churches etc?

    It is fairly straightforward if the applicant claims they have got a job: it can be checked.
    It is fairly straightforward if the applicant claims they are married: it can be checked.

    But how do you check an applicant for religion?

    After much thought on this trying to work out all the angles (seriously) I have come to the same answer I suspect you have come to.

    Why would you want to?

    Or maybe a better question should be

    Why should you be able to?

    I honestly can't see any legitimate reason why ... unless of course the job they were applying for was Vicar/Priest/Imam/Rabbi/Chief Cullender in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
    It might be useful to check that an applicant believes in science instead.
    Not sure that would be a requirement if it was an application for Vicar/Priest/Imam/Rabbi/Chief Cullender in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... although maybe the last one might be relevant.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    TSE, you missed two good ones today, a neatly matched pair of stories of betrayal and bitterness:

    She [Valerie Trierweiler] also takes a swipe at Mr Hollande's Socialist credentials, claiming that while he has created an image of disliking the rich, "in reality the president doesn't like the poor".

    "He, the man of the left, talks about "the toothless ones" in private, very proud of his humorous streak."

    The hashtag "SansDents" fast became a top-trending French-language topic on Twitter on Wednesday just behind "Trierweiler".


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29042867

    and

    [Roger Lord] claimed UKIP leader Mr Farage had "crushed me, made me look an idiot, turned my career to dust".

    Mr Lord said he had been given no warning about Mr Carswell's decision.

    "I was speaking to Nigel Farage three weeks ago, talking about my plans in Clacton, what I was intending to do," he said.

    "He knew what was going to happen and he didn't flinch."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-29045467

    A pretty good idea that Farage can lie whilst staring you in the face. Self interst trumps honesty. And morality too. Self interest on Farage's part promotes his peddling of immigration. Its just too easy a way to drum up votes to miss out on. Farage is like the man in the story of the Taj Mahal. He finishes it and finds the coffin spoils the decor. Farage has lost interst in the EU. He just wants to promote himself.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Paris calls for 30-40 Tory MPs to defect to UKIP. Although he doesn't think they will.

    While I'd welcome such a defection, I think Parris is completely off his trolley about UKIP.
  • TSE, you missed two good ones today, a neatly matched pair of stories of betrayal and bitterness:

    She [Valerie Trierweiler] also takes a swipe at Mr Hollande's Socialist credentials, claiming that while he has created an image of disliking the rich, "in reality the president doesn't like the poor".

    "He, the man of the left, talks about "the toothless ones" in private, very proud of his humorous streak."

    The hashtag "SansDents" fast became a top-trending French-language topic on Twitter on Wednesday just behind "Trierweiler".


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29042867

    and

    [Roger Lord] claimed UKIP leader Mr Farage had "crushed me, made me look an idiot, turned my career to dust".

    Mr Lord said he had been given no warning about Mr Carswell's decision.

    "I was speaking to Nigel Farage three weeks ago, talking about my plans in Clacton, what I was intending to do," he said.

    "He knew what was going to happen and he didn't flinch."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-29045467

    A pretty good idea that Farage can lie whilst staring you in the face. Self interst trumps honesty. And morality too. Self interest on Farage's part promotes his peddling of immigration. Its just too easy a way to drum up votes to miss out on. Farage is like the man in the story of the Taj Mahal. He finishes it and finds the coffin spoils the decor. Farage has lost interst in the EU. He just wants to promote himself.
    If we want to talk about lying we could start with the politician who in 2010 said:

    'I have no plans to raise VAT' and then raised it three weeks later.......
  • If we want to talk about lying we could start with the politician who in 2010 said:

    'I have no plans to raise VAT' and then raised it three weeks later.......

    Citation needed
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Every time I type "Matthew Parris" it gets corrected to "Matthew Paris".
  • [Roger Lord] claimed UKIP leader Mr Farage had "crushed me, made me look an idiot, turned my career to dust".

    I think his hysterical outbursts are what turned his political career to dust. Will anyone want a candidate who publicly on national television threatens defection in a fit of pique and threatens a new colleague with physical violence even if he is a rival.

    Clearly Farage was not going to tell anyone what was going on beforehand for fear of leaks and from the sounds of it there wasn't any real opportunity to work through an outcome that would have satisfied all parties because Lord had already gone public

    I suspect if Lord had kept his counsel , taken it on the chin and just quietly worked with the UKIP HO as you would expect from someone who aspired to represent his constituency at national level he would probably have earned himself a decent candidacy as compensation. As it is who would want such a reactionary and volatile candidate? The Tories perhaps.....

    If Roger Lord was given a peerage, would he then be Lord Lord?
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    If we want to talk about lying we could start with the politician who in 2010 said:

    'I have no plans to raise VAT' and then raised it three weeks later.......

    Citation needed
    No more top down reorganisations of the NHS.

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    hucks67 said:

    Are the Tories now so toxic that they cannot govern the UK ? Or is it just a problem related to Scotland, which won't accept being ruled by Tories in London ? Cameron has indicated that if Scotland votes NO, he would support the Scottish parliament being given many more powers, so that they are much more independent of Westminster. Miliband has also indicated that Labour would support further devolution.

    As for the Guardian article that Cameron could delay the general election because of a YES vote, I believe that this would not be possible. The rules as far as I understand it, only allow the PM to extend parliamentary time in the event of war or some catastrophic event affecting the UK. I don't think the Scots voting for independence would be considerd an event, where the PM could postpone an election. I remember this being raised with a constituitional expert and they said that legally a PM could not postpone the election. The Tories don't have a majority anyway and I think all other parties would vote against. There is no chance of the HOL voting to postpone the election either.

    So hucks, the break up of the UK is not a catastrophic event for the UK. Really?

    Andf Scotland is just as much a part of the UK as anywhere else. There are pockets of labour voters all over the place when there is a tory govt and there are swathes of the country that vote tory when there is a labour govt. This is no argument at all.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited September 2014
    Hugh said:

    Carswell on Newsnight, didn't seem comfortable with the whole racism, anti-immigrant UKIP thing.

    UKIP are anti open door immigration, not anti-immigrant.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2014
    Hugh said:

    No more top down reorganisations of the NHS.

    Politicians, eh? Clegg, Miliband, Cameron, Farage, Salmond, they're all the same, sometimes not doing exactly what they said they would do.

    The only difference between them is that the honest ones don't claim not to be politicians.
  • Greetings from Tokyo.

    There actually seems to be a fair bit of Westminster cross-party consensus on what the main points of negotiation should be after Scotland votes Yes. It does not seem beyond the bounds of possibility to me that this will develop into a cross-party approach to the divorce. I imagine something similar will happen on the Scottish side. If the negotiations are party-specific it is going to be much harder to get a binding. long-term settlement - something that the markets will need, as well as the country in general. Ditto with the development of a new constitutional arrangement for the rUK.

    From a betting perspective, it must be the case that both Alastair Carmichael and Danny Alexander will resign from the government on the day after the referendum.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Hugh said:

    Carswell on Newsnight, didn't seem comfortable with the whole racism, anti-immigrant UKIP thing.

    UKIP are anti open door immigration, not anti-immigrant.
    Haa haaa haaa! Tell that to the 'ting tongs' !!! And Atkinson was not some gumball she was a senior party member former communications director and an MEP.

    Ho ho ho. See you next week Live at the Apollo.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Hugh said:

    No more top down reorganisations of the NHS.

    Politicians, eh? Clegg, Miliband, Cameron, Farage, Salmond, they're all the same, sometimes not doing exactly what they said they would do.

    The only difference between them is that the honest ones don't claim not to be politicians.
    They're not all the same, Richard, some of them are pretty straight kinda guys.

  • Neil said:

    They're not all the same, Richard, some of them are pretty straight kinda guys.

    True, or say they are.
  • If we want to talk about lying we could start with the politician who in 2010 said:

    'I have no plans to raise VAT' and then raised it three weeks later.......

    Citation needed
    "We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT. Our first Budget is all about recognising we need to get spending under control rather than putting up tax."

    23rd April 2010.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7625873/General-Election-2010-Cameron-dismisses-claim-Tories-would-put-up-VAT.html

    "


  • If we want to talk about lying we could start with the politician who in 2010 said:

    'I have no plans to raise VAT' and then raised it three weeks later.......

    Citation needed
    "We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT. Our first Budget is all about recognising we need to get spending under control rather than putting up tax."

    23rd April 2010.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7625873/General-Election-2010-Cameron-dismisses-claim-Tories-would-put-up-VAT.html

    "
    OK, fair enough. I'd seen a comment from Hague along those lines but not Cameron (or Osborne).
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited September 2014

    If we want to talk about lying we could start with the politician who in 2010 said:

    'I have no plans to raise VAT' and then raised it three weeks later.......

    Citation needed

    Are you sure? Oh alright then:

    The pre-election pledges that the Tories are trying to wipe from the internet

    In an interview with Jeremy Paxman on 23 April 2010, Cameron said: "We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT. Our first Budget is all about recognising we need to get spending under control rather than putting up tax."

    VAT was subsequently raised from 17.5 per cent to a record high of 20 per cent in George Osborne's emergency Budget.


    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/11/pre-election-pledges-tories-are-trying-wipe-internet

    And they even tried to hide them after the fact. Tut Tut Tut........
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    How to win friends and influence people
    "Charities should stick to knitting and keep out of politics, says MP"
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/03/charities-knitting-politics-brook-newmark
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2014
    Note whenever Carswell praises immigration he cites a professional, qualified immigrant doing a job that we are lacking suitably qualified British people for

    Ie a GP
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312

    Hugh said:

    Carswell on Newsnight, didn't seem comfortable with the whole racism, anti-immigrant UKIP thing.

    UKIP are anti open door immigration, not anti-immigrant.
    Haa haaa haaa! Tell that to the 'ting tongs' !!! And Atkinson was not some gumball she was a senior party member former communications director and an MEP.

    Ho ho ho. See you next week Live at the Apollo.
    Someone watched Little Britain. So what? Attack the BBC for showing the programme.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928



    From a betting perspective, it must be the case that both Alastair Carmichael and Danny Alexander will resign from the government on the day after the referendum.

    That's almost enough to make me want Yes to win.

  • And they even tried to hide them after the fact. Tut Tut Tut........

    Well, that's a good example of a critical article which wrecks its attack by overplaying it. The idea that there was an attempt to hide the record is completely ludicrous.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Hugh said:

    If we want to talk about lying we could start with the politician who in 2010 said:

    'I have no plans to raise VAT' and then raised it three weeks later.......

    Citation needed
    No more top down reorganisations of the NHS.

    The LD policy was to raise taxation as opposed to all cuts. We have a coalition not a tory govt. You need to grow up. And of course the LDs need to think hard before they try to claim credit for the increase in tax allowances but forget about the VAT and the freezing of higher allowances.

    The NHS has been organised to be driven from the bottom up by GPs and the system specifically excludes the SoS to interfere. And again the initial tory ideas were diluted by the LDs.
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited September 2014

    Hugh said:

    No more top down reorganisations of the NHS.

    Politicians, eh? Clegg, Miliband, Cameron, Farage, Salmond, they're all the same, sometimes not doing exactly what they said they would do.

    The only difference between them is that the honest ones don't claim not to be politicians.
    Thats right Cameron finally did make up his mind whether he rode Rebekkah's horse or not didn't he?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/phone-hacking/9118472/Horsegate-David-Cameron-admits-riding-Rebekah-Brookss-police-horse-live.html
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited September 2014
    And you'd think the Prime Minister would know the difference between 'the deficit' and 'debt'

    David Cameron rebuked for telling porkies about the national debt

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/02/david-cameron-rebuked-for-telling-porkies-about-the-national-debt/
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2014

    Thats right Cameron finally did make up his mind whether he rode Rebekkah's horse or not?

    Dunno, don't care - it strikes me as just about the most trivial piece of ridiculous nonsense I've ever heard, except inasmuch as it demonstrates Labour's cynical hypocrisy over their own much closer links with the Murdoch press.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Ninoinoz said:

    Hugh said:

    Carswell on Newsnight, didn't seem comfortable with the whole racism, anti-immigrant UKIP thing.

    UKIP are anti open door immigration, not anti-immigrant.
    Haa haaa haaa! Tell that to the 'ting tongs' !!! And Atkinson was not some gumball she was a senior party member former communications director and an MEP.

    Ho ho ho. See you next week Live at the Apollo.
    Someone watched Little Britain. So what? Attack the BBC for showing the programme.
    har har har...
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092


    The NHS has been organised to be driven from the bottom up by GPs

    People actually seriously say this? I thought it was a joke to mock Tory backpeddling

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    The first pressing question in the post-independence negotiations is going to be:-

    "Who gets the Elgin Marbles?"

  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    If we want to talk about lying we could start with the politician who in 2010 said:

    'I have no plans to raise VAT' and then raised it three weeks later.......

    Citation needed
    "We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT. Our first Budget is all about recognising we need to get spending under control rather than putting up tax."

    23rd April 2010.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7625873/General-Election-2010-Cameron-dismisses-claim-Tories-would-put-up-VAT.html

    "
    OK, fair enough. I'd seen a comment from Hague along those lines but not Cameron (or Osborne).
    Yes, we back Sure Start. It's a disgrace that Gordon Brown has been trying to frighten people about this.

    David Cameron 2010

    More than 600 Sure Start centres for families with young children have been shut or merged since the coalition came to power
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited September 2014
    @Stereotomy
    "The NHS has been organised to be driven from the bottom up by GPs"
    I believe that was a mistype, it should read "rodgered", nor "driven"
  • Hugh said:

    If we want to talk about lying we could start with the politician who in 2010 said:

    'I have no plans to raise VAT' and then raised it three weeks later.......

    Citation needed
    No more top down reorganisations of the NHS.

    The LD policy was to raise taxation as opposed to all cuts. We have a coalition not a tory govt. You need to grow up.

    Nope you need to get your facts straight.

    Nick Clegg during the 2010 GE campaign:

    ""We see absolutely no reason to raise VAT because we have done our homework, we have identified where money can be generated and where money can be saved."

    12th April 2010

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2010/04/12/uk-britain-election-libdems-idUKTRE63B1H320100412

    Both the Tories and Lib Dems said they would not raise VAT. You can't blame the fact they had to form a coalition for them both lying to the public.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    HanDodges said:

    AndyJS said:

    There are plenty of luxury hotels in Birmingham. For some reason TripAdvisor reviewers don't seem to like them.

    Luxury does not mean good. Many so-called luxury hotels are soulless chains where you can't open the windows.
    Travel Inns sorry Premier Inns are OK, fine. But they are not 'hotels'. They are motels. Rooms in a building with a car park. A few in city centres have a an integral bar/resaurant.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2014

    Both the Tories and Lib Dems said they would not raise VAT. You can't blame the fact they had to form a coalition for them both lying to the public.

    You're very fond of accusing people of lying. It's a very ugly trait, common in UKIP supporters, but not one which really makes much sense in this context, given that the UKIP leader has said the manifesto he promoted was 'drivel'. Was he 'lying' when he launched it?

    Perhaps as part of the coalition negotiations both parties insisted on other policies (such as the LibDem pledge to increase personal allowances) which meant that to meet the first-year deficit targets VAT had to be increased instead of what each party had individually planned. Just a thought, you know. Not everything is a conspiracy.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2014
    Hugh said:

    Yes, we back Sure Start. It's a disgrace that Gordon Brown has been trying to frighten people about this.

    David Cameron 2010

    More than 600 Sure Start centres for families with young children have been shut or merged since the coalition came to power

    Sorry, what is the inconsistency there? He didn't promise no centres would be shut by local authorities, let along merged, did he?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    The Lib Dems also attacked the Tories a the party that would raise VAT iirc as well as saying they wouldn't do so themselves.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    VAT, you know it makes sense.

    "The poorest 20% of UK households spend a higher proportion of their disposable income on VAT than the richest 20%, the Office for National Statistics said."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15519727
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Both the Tories and Lib Dems said they would not raise VAT. You can't blame the fact they had to form a coalition for them both lying to the public.

    You're very fond of accusing people of lying. It's a very ugly trait, common in UKIP supporters, but not one which really makes much sense in this context, given that the UKIP leader has said the manifesto he promoted was 'drivel'. Was he 'lying' when he launched it?

    Perhaps as part of the coalition negotiations both parties insisted on other policies (such as the LibDem pledge to increase personal allowances) which meant that to meet the first-year deficit targets VAT had to be increased instead of what each party had individually planned. Just a thought, you know. Not everything is a conspiracy.
    Yeah, that top-down reorganization of the NHS had to be paid for somehow!
  • Both the Tories and Lib Dems said they would not raise VAT. You can't blame the fact they had to form a coalition for them both lying to the public.

    You're very fond of accusing people of lying. It's a very ugly trait, common in UKIP supporters, but not one which really makes much sense in this context, given that the UKIP leader has said the manifesto he promoted was 'drivel'. Was he 'lying' when he launched it?

    Perhaps as part of the coalition negotiations both parties insisted on other policies (such as the LibDem pledge to increase personal allowances) which meant that to meet the first-year deficit targets VAT had to be increased instead of what each party had individually planned. Just a thought, you know. Not everything is a conspiracy.
    Yep I know the truth hurts Richard. But as far as I am concerned if someone says something that is untrue and they know it to be untrue then that is lying. There is nothing ugly about pointing that nasty little trait out to people.

    Besides, compared to what you and the other Tory hypocrites on here say about your political opponents it is an extremely mild comment.

    Fact is that both Cameron and Clegg said they had no plans to raise VAT and within a few days of getting into office they did exactly that.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    Hugh said:

    Yes, we back Sure Start. It's a disgrace that Gordon Brown has been trying to frighten people about this.

    David Cameron 2010

    More than 600 Sure Start centres for families with young children have been shut or merged since the coalition came to power

    Sorry, what is the inconsistency there? He didn't promise no centres would be shut by local authorities, let along merged, did he?
    yeah probably just a misunderstanding.

    "We back Sure Start" can easily be misread as "we will shut Sure Start centres down"

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2014

    . But as far as I am concerned if someone says something that is untrue and they know it to be untrue then that is lying.

    So Farage was lying when he claimed to support the 2010 UKIP manifesto, according to you. Fair enough. I wouldn't accuse him of lying myself because of that, but I can see your point.

    Besides, compared to what you and the other Tory hypocrites on here say about your political opponents it is an extremely mild comment.

    Another of your very unpleasant traits is to accuse honest people of hypocrisy, simply because they support David Cameron, against whom you seem to have developed an irrational hatred. It's very striking.

    Fact is that both Cameron and Clegg said they had no plans to raise VAT and within a few days of getting into office they did exactly that.

    This is true. That doesn't mean they were necessarily lying, does it? It might mean things were worse than expected. It might mean that the outcome of the coalition negotiations left a gap in the funding. It might mean they were honest but over-optimistic in their projections. It might mean that the Treasury officials very strongly advised them to raise VAT. It might mean that they changed their minds. Honest people do change their minds, you know.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    BBC ticker
    Victims are being encouraged by hard-pressed police to investigate offences themselves, inspectorate reports
    (page wasn't linked when I tried it)
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    This is where the AGW madness has led us for this winter:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2741039/Blackout-alert-Offices-factories-undergo-1970s-style-electricity-rationing-winter-stop-households-plunged-darkness.html

    It would be ironic if an ultra cold snap brought this matter to a head, and helped to bring down the coalition with it over the winter!
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    isam said:

    Note whenever Carswell praises immigration he cites a professional, qualified immigrant doing a job that we are lacking suitably qualified British people for

    Ie a GP

    Try harder
    In his resignation letter he said, 'On the subject of immigration, let me make it absolutely clear; I’m not against immigration. The one thing more ugly than nativism is angry nativism'
    That just about wipes the floor with UKIP. Cerainly you.

    He is a libertarian. UKIP praise Putin (UKIP stands for United Kingdom In-favour of Putin)
    Carswell does not mind a united Europe or a united world. He just argues how it should be governed.

    Carswell was born and brought up in Africa. His mate Hannan was born and brought up in Peru and Bolivia. Their first experience with the UK was public schools and Oxbridge. I do not think Carswells links with the UK are particularly typical or sympathetic to UKIP.
  • AndyJS said:

    Every time I type "Matthew Parris" it gets corrected to "Matthew Paris".

    Gay Paris?

    :)
  • Smarmeron said:

    How to win friends and influence people
    "Charities should stick to knitting and keep out of politics, says MP"
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/03/charities-knitting-politics-brook-newmark

    'Stick to their knitting', not 'Stick to knitting'. To stick to ones knitting is to stay with your speciality, to keep within the confines of what you're good at. It's a well worn business phrase -nothing whatsoever to do with accusing people of doing knitting.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2014

    isam said:

    Note whenever Carswell praises immigration he cites a professional, qualified immigrant doing a job that we are lacking suitably qualified British people for

    Ie a GP

    Try harder
    In his resignation letter he said, 'On the subject of immigration, let me make it absolutely clear; I’m not against immigration. The one thing more ugly than nativism is angry nativism'
    That just about wipes the floor with UKIP. Cerainly you.

    He is a libertarian. UKIP praise Putin (UKIP stands for United Kingdom In-favour of Putin)
    Carswell does not mind a united Europe or a united world. He just argues how it should be governed.

    Carswell was born and brought up in Africa. His mate Hannan was born and brought up in Peru and Bolivia. Their first experience with the UK was public schools and Oxbridge. I do not think Carswells links with the UK are particularly typical or sympathetic to UKIP.
    Blimey you've taken his defection hard

    I suppose he'd barely heard of ukip when he joined last week...

    I'm not against immigration, just mass immigration
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Luckyguy1983
    Never trust a headline writer.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    "Conservative MP Douglas Carswell accused Mr Blair of 'mind-boggling arrogance' claiming life looks very different from a 'gilded square' in central London compared with a small cottage in Essex
    Douglas Carswell, the Tory MP for Clacton, said the former PM’s ‘mind-boggling arrogance’ beggared belief. He added: ‘If you look at the world from an expensive property in a gilded square in Central London, then immigration looks very different to if you are in a small bungalow in my part of Essex.
    ‘Immigration might have been a good thing for overpaid over-opinionated former PMs because it means we have got more Russian plutocrats and Arab sheiks to rub shoulders with. But in my constituency immigration can mean being priced out of work.’

    http://www.westhamonline.net/forum_flat.php?7391656|a0
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    MikeL said:

    Despite Carswell, YouGov actually edging very marginally in Con direction. Lab leads:

    Last week - average 3.0 (4, 1, 3, 4 - only four polls due to Bank Hol)
    This week - average 2.33 (1, 3, 3 - three polls so far, two to come)

    Looks like noise to me !

  • Smarmeron said:

    How to win friends and influence people
    "Charities should stick to knitting and keep out of politics, says MP"
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/03/charities-knitting-politics-brook-newmark

    'Stick to their knitting', not 'Stick to knitting'. To stick to ones knitting is to stay with your speciality, to keep within the confines of what you're good at. It's a well worn business phrase -nothing whatsoever to do with accusing people of doing knitting.
    Yep, no chance of that being misquoted.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting fact:

    3 of the top 5 hotels in Birmingham are Premier Inns according to TripAdvisor:

    http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotels-g186402-Birmingham_West_Midlands_England-Hotels.html

    Isn't premier inns the employer with the highest proportion of EU immigrants working for them?
    Higher than Accor hotels ?

    All staff there seem to be French !
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Douglas Carswell, a back-bench Conservative MP reputed for his strong libertarian leanings, explained in December that "migrants who contribute should be welcomed. But opening the doors to Bulgarians and Romanians could create real issues."

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303433304579306631941720964
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Sham marriages to gain British citizenship are happening at an “industrial” rate of one every hour, it was revealed yesterday.

    Registrars and members of the public reported more than 9,100 bogus weddings last year but only 90 people were removed, the Home Affairs Committee was told.

    Many more go unreported because register office staff fail to tell immigration officials, said borders inspector John Vine.

    He explained to MPs the route to UK citizenship was a massive worry and along with proxy weddings, where neither bride nor groom has to be present, was the “biggest threat” to immigration control.

    Last night Tory MP Douglas Carswell said: “It sounds like it’s happening on an industrial scale, but there is nothing we can do because we are part of the EU.”

    http://www.amren.com/news/2014/06/bogus-citizenship-weddings-bring-9100-illegal-migrants-to-uk/
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Tony Blair changes his tune over immigration saying it produced a 'challenge'

    Tony Blair yesterday admitted for the first time that mass immigration has produced a ‘challenge’ which causes alarm to millions. The former prime minister acknowledged there was a ‘debate’ over the impact of immigration and whether British generosity in allowing it had been abused.

    Mr Blair said immigration had produced both a cultural and economic ‘challenge’. He made his admission in an article in which he accepted that ‘there is a perception of failure’ over the issue. The view contrasted strongly with his stance as prime minister. In the 2005 election campaign he insisted immigrants had made a ‘huge contribution’ to Britain and condemned opponents for ‘exploiting people’s fears’.

    In his 690-page autobiography published last year he devoted only one page to the controversial subject. Yesterday, however, in Roman Catholic journal The Tablet, Mr Blair declared that immigration – 3.2million came to live in Britain during Labour’s years in power – was a matter of major importance.

    He said: ‘A new type of debate is taking shape. While it can centre on immigration or protectionism, it is above all about issues to do with culture and integration – issues that are altogether more vigorous and potentially more explosive. ‘In Europe, the debate is about whether our attempt to integrate cultures has succeeded or failed and, insofar as there is a perception of failure, it is about whether our “generosity” in allowing inward migration and encouraging multiculturalism has been abused.’

    Last night Douglas Carswell, MP for Clacton, said: ‘What a pity that Tony Blair waited until he left office to address an issue of concern to millions of people in this country.’

    http://immigwatch.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/oklahoma-house-passes-arizona-style.html
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099

    Guardian version of the BBC ticker.
    "Police telling victims to solve crimes by themselves"
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/04/police-telling-victims-solve-crimes-themselves
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Gone back to thinking the referendum will be No 55%, Yes 45%. Wobbled a bit yesterday.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    . But as far as I am concerned if someone says something that is untrue and they know it to be untrue then that is lying.

    So Farage was lying when he claimed to support the 2010 UKIP manifesto, according to you. Fair enough. I wouldn't accuse him of lying myself because of that, but I can see your point.

    Besides, compared to what you and the other Tory hypocrites on here say about your political opponents it is an extremely mild comment.

    Another of your very unpleasant traits is to accuse honest people of hypocrisy, simply because they support David Cameron, against whom you seem to have developed an irrational hatred. It's very striking.

    Fact is that both Cameron and Clegg said they had no plans to raise VAT and within a few days of getting into office they did exactly that.

    This is true. That doesn't mean they were necessarily lying, does it? It might mean things were worse than expected. It might mean that the outcome of the coalition negotiations left a gap in the funding. It might mean they were honest but over-optimistic in their projections. It might mean that the Treasury officials very strongly advised them to raise VAT. It might mean that they changed their minds. Honest people do change their minds, you know.
    For reality you can look at the IFSs 2010 election briefing note
    'Labour favours a 2:1 ratio of spending cuts to tax rises (£47 billion and £24 billion, respectively), the Liberal Democrats a 2½:1 ratio (£51 billion and £20 billion) and the Conservatives a 4:1 ratio (£57 billion and £14 billion). '
    'Labour has already put a £17 billion tax increase into the pipeline for the coming
    Parliament. We estimate that its goals for borrowing and the overall composition of the
    fiscal tightening would require it to announce further tax increases worth around £7 billion. The Conservatives have announced a £6 billion net tax cut on top of what is in the pipeline from Labour, but their goals would probably require them to reverse about half of it. The Liberal Democrats have announced a £3 billion tax increase on top of what is in the pipeline'

    The extra tax is because the coalition went with the LDs extra tax raising proportion of reduciung the deficit compared with cuts.
    Its useful to remember that the outgoing Labour budget set in train 17 billion of tax rises.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Does anyone know what the music is on this show, starting at 3 mins 20 secs?

    It seems to be being played all over the place at the moment. It was on an advert on Sky News just now:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04g1010
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    AndyJS said:

    Does anyone know what the music is on this show, starting at 3 mins 20 secs?

    It seems to be being played all over the place at the moment. It was on an advert on Sky News just now:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04g1010

    Crap electronic jingle #671 ?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2014
    RodCrosby said:

    AndyJS said:

    Does anyone know what the music is on this show, starting at 3 mins 20 secs?

    It seems to be being played all over the place at the moment. It was on an advert on Sky News just now:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04g1010

    Crap electronic jingle #671 ?
    It's crap but it's one of those tunes you can't get out of your head nonetheless.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,000
    RodCrosby said:

    The first pressing question in the post-independence negotiations is going to be:-

    "Who gets the Elgin Marbles?"

    The better marbles player, obviously.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    AndyJS said:

    RodCrosby said:

    AndyJS said:

    Does anyone know what the music is on this show, starting at 3 mins 20 secs?

    It seems to be being played all over the place at the moment. It was on an advert on Sky News just now:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04g1010

    Crap electronic jingle #671 ?
    It's crap but it's one of those tunes you can't get out of your head nonetheless.
    No place I'd rather be
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Clever asymmetric warfare from ISIS. The only way to shut them up would be to close down Twitter: unfortunately that would shut up the rest of the world as well, which they know.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    sarissa said:

    RodCrosby said:

    The first pressing question in the post-independence negotiations is going to be:-

    "Who gets the Elgin Marbles?"

    The better marbles player, obviously.
    It was only partially tongue-in-cheek. Arguments over objects d'art, and all things cultural will rumble on for decades.

    The Irish are still arguing over stuff that went down on the Lusitania... I kid you not.
    http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/artblog/2007/may/09/thistimeweirisharekeeping
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    Gone back to thinking the referendum will be No 55%, Yes 45%. Wobbled a bit yesterday.

    Well there are very strong hints that Panelbase have a poll showing YES ahead. And this time not biassed


    It's late here in Germany. I'm a bit drunk. But I think Cameron has lost the union, and Labour are fecked for 20 years. England will swing right.

    I'm starting to come to terms with it. Personally, I might be better off, as frightened Scots pile into London property. Taxes in England will, eventually, go down. Both countries will be more rightwing.
    Reminds me of the wine tasting I did in Koblenz at the age of 10 on a primary school trip. Teachers would probably be jailed for arranging such a thing today.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2014


  • From a betting perspective, it must be the case that both Alastair Carmichael and Danny Alexander will resign from the government on the day after the referendum.

    That's almost enough to make me want Yes to win.
    :-)
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Re the IndyRef.

    The opaque nature of the declarations process (as reported) and the likely closeness of the result suggests some prediction method is required as the results come in.

    Ideas?

    Compare results with the 1997 referendum, maybe?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2014
    RodCrosby said:

    Re the IndyRef.

    The opaque nature of the declarations process (as reported) and the likely closeness of the result suggests some prediction method is required as the results come in.

    Ideas?

    Compare results with the 1997 referendum, maybe?

    No reason why my forecasts are any better than anyone else's of course, but here's my Scottish referendum prediction anyway. Haven't changed it since 25th April:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fBxvVgbyO_msx2eJxVbUlh6MubdD4-fZ-UIBFkwNIaI/edit
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2014
    You could have a prediction and then compare the actual results to the prediction as they come in. Hopefully they wouldn't be too different so you only have to make slight modifications to the final predicted result.
  • You've got to respect the Liberal Democrats for their gumption, if not their sense. Nick Clegg called Nigel Farage out for a debate because he was sure that he could defend the EU. And now they're holding a dance to test the hypothesis that the party is deader than disco.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Re: King v The Doctors, I can only relate the following experience...

    In 1994, aged 66, my Dad was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer. The prognosis was grim. Very grim. He was given two years to live, and that would be after surgery to remove his voice-box, and half his shoulder, rendering his left arm useless.

    I travelled up to Liverpool to discuss the matter with his consultant. After listening to the prognosis, I said, quite equably:- "Well, thanks, you don't mind if we get a second opinion?"

    The narcissistic cnut looked at me as if I was some kind of insect, and replied:- "I do mind. In fact, I take it as a personal insult!"

    I did, with some effort, get that second opinion...

    When my Dad died last year, aged 85, of "Old Age", long-cured of the cancer, voice-box and shoulder intact, he had had the privilege of reading about himself in a medical journal, as the "world's-longest survivor" of that type of cancer...
  • Alex Salmond: Meet the bully behind the mask
    The First Minister tries to patronise a Telegraph political reporter with a bag of sweets while struggling to answer questions about a separate Scotland's finances.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11073598/Alex-Salmond-Meet-the-bully-behind-the-mask.html

    I guess we've got another two weeks of "dodge the question" on currency while Salmond tries to play "whackamole" with the press.....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2014
    Winston McKenzie has once again been selected as UKIP candidate for Croydon North:

    twitter.com/joneselizab/status/507275959553499136

    The shortlist was Jeff Bolter, Gary Carp, Elizabeth Jones, Bruce Machan, Winston McKenzie, Ace Nnorom.

    twitter.com/joneselizab/status/505006535379259393
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Eastleigh UKIP are due to select their candidate later today. I don't know if Diane James is on the shortlist.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890
    AndyJS said:

    Eastleigh UKIP are due to select their candidate later today. I don't know if Diane James is on the shortlist.

    Thought she was an MEP now.
  • MattW said:

    AndyJS said:

    Eastleigh UKIP are due to select their candidate later today. I don't know if Diane James is on the shortlist.

    Thought she was an MEP now.
    She is. As is Farage.
    NEW THREAD
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    MattW said:

    AndyJS said:

    Eastleigh UKIP are due to select their candidate later today. I don't know if Diane James is on the shortlist.

    Thought she was an MEP now.
    I expect she'll still be standing for Parliament somewhere.
This discussion has been closed.