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  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG As is seen from the likes of Yes backer Brian Souter and the Yes mob baiting Murphy Yes are hardly sweetness and light either

    At least in Scotland , Souter does not get kickbacks or knighthoods for his support.
    SIR Brian Souter?

    That one?

    Or another Brian Souter?

    Brian Souter knighted in Queen's birthday honours

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13725892
    He is so bad and evil that unionists in London decided to give him a gong
    SNP in row over Brian Souter knighthood
    THE SNP's relationship with Sir Brian Souter was under fire again from Labour last night after it emerged that the Scottish Government had nominated him - the SNP's biggest donor - for his knighthood.


    http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-in-row-over-brian-souter-knighthood-1-1775491

    Not the sharpest tool in the box......any minute now he'll be running to teacher....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx Salmond would have used a majority for devomax as endorsement for 'just one more heave'

    Undoubtedly it would be a step towards full independence, but if that is what the voters wanted in the first place, for plenty of other reasons, then there we would be. Surely you are not arguing for denying voters what they want just because it might lead to indy?

    Devomax would surely have taken the momentum out of indy unless some really serious crisis happened to make the UK unacceptable.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG As is seen from the likes of Yes backer Brian Souter and the Yes mob baiting Murphy Yes are hardly sweetness and light either

    At least in Scotland , Souter does not get kickbacks or knighthoods for his support.
    SIR Brian Souter?

    That one?

    Or another Brian Souter?

    Brian Souter knighted in Queen's birthday honours

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13725892
    I was unaware Scotland had knighthoods, I thought it was unionists in Westminster that gave them out.
    You are not the sharpest tool in the box are you, but thanks for proving my point.
    First Minister Alex Salmond congratulated those honoured in the birthday list.

    Who is not the sharpest tool in the box?
    As I understand, the system is now different in Scotland. The SG don't make recommendations: it's a civil service committee which does.
    SNP refusal to release Brian Souter knighthood documents set to be challenged

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-refusal-to-release-brian-souter-1118726
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Carnyx said:


    Reports coming in on Twitter of the treasurer of a No partner group attacking a pregnant Yes campaigner by kicking her in the stomach when canvassing in the street in Glasgow - unconfirmed as yet but as he is named and said to have been arrested and charged, one would hope the reports are accurate for the authors' sakes.

    Not clear whether he was canvassing as a Better Together person but he is reported to have been using their bumf at the time.

    Will be interesting to see how the media cover that compared with Mr Murphy's egg. But very depressing.

    Out of interest did you know when you posted that the "partner group" was the BNP?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    Carlotta Got him there I think
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    MalcolmG The BNP have nothing whatsoever to do with BT and you know it, the BNP are thugs and will continue to be thugs after the referendum
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnN UKIP won 10% of the vote in this year's Euro elections in Scotland, if all of those voters vote No that could be key, I doubt any working class Glasgow Catholics are not already voting Yes, Glasgow sadly will probably largely split along Rangers, Celtic lines

    No are relying on all their nasty partners to vote for them in a forlorn hope that allying themselves with any nasty group may save them. An unholy alliance indeed.
    Also despite the bampots , there are lots of Rangers supporters for YES also, they are not all bigots.
    Reports coming in on Twitter of the treasurer of a No partner group attacking a pregnant Yes campaigner by kicking her in the stomach when canvassing in the street in Glasgow - unconfirmed as yet but as he is named and said to have been arrested and charged, one would hope the reports are accurate for the authors' sakes.

    Not clear whether he was canvassing as a Better Together person but he is reported to have been using their bumf at the time.

    Will be interesting to see how the media cover that compared with Mr Murphy's egg. But very depressing.
    Is the BNP an "official" partner group? (I don't know, but I'd be surprised). Or does "partner group" just mean that they also oppose Scottish independence?

    "BNP thug in violent attack on innocent person" isn't really a surprise and it's a but of a smear to try and associate that sort of behaviour with Better Together as a whole.
    Charlesas you would expect BT count them as NOT a partner , but it is just one of the nasty groups aligned with and supporting BT. There were other beatings in Ediunburgh yesterday by another one of their NOT official partners , football thugs of a certain persuasion beating up innocent people on a YES stall.
    BT are hoist by their own petard , every time someone that is YES does something they claim it is orchestrated by the official YES campaign but conversely the real thuggish behaviour being perpetrated by NO supporting people they always claim it is nothing to do with them or their vicious divisive campaign.
    They cannot have it both ways, but unfortunately their tame media friends will downplay it whilst trumpeting an egg being thrown as if it was mass murder.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    "It is time that decent Conservatives and those that believe in social democracy stand up and fight those parasites who are infecting our party".Tory modernisers refuse to lay down.

    http://jerryhayes.co.uk/

    "Moderniser" is the unique sense of the term, meaning "clinging to a 1950s project of agricultural subsidies, mass regulation and and protectionist barriers".
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG I have yet to see Salmond say he will take Souter's knighthood away, and as has been reported by BT Salmond is quite capable of threatening company executives with loss of government business if they come out for No

    There are no knighthoods in Scotland, how can he take away a Westminster gong.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    HYUFD said:

    Carlotta Got him there I think

    That was fun:

    1) Doesn't have a Knighthood - Does
    2) Awarded by Unionist dumplings in London The SNP

  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806



    Of course they have. Both are very difficult and steps in the right direction are all that we can legitimately hope for.


    Let's take the example of immigration. The biggest problem the government have is that the success of their economic policies has turned the UK into employment Central creating more jobs than the entire EZ and acting as a magnet to the unemployed and ambitious of the EU.

    The second problem is that we accept that the government has no right to say who UK citizens can and can't marry and that we have a right to bring our spouse here to live with us. Given the size of our existing immigrant communities this creates an enormous pressure for immigration which can only be mitigated by authoritarian challenges and diminution of basic rights.

    The third problem is that education is a major export industry for us bringing many foreign students here. They then get involved in UK life and with UK citizens and want to stay.

    Cameron can be criticised for promising to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands because unless we had an economic disaster of Brownian proportions it was never going to happen but when did we last elect a politician whose response to every problem is that it is all terribly difficult?

    So you accept that Cameron's promise on immigration was either a deliberate lie to trick people into voting for him or was made with total ignorance of the actual immigration issue.


    I imagine it was made with no expectation that the UK economy would be growing quite so remarkably in relation to the rest of the EU. The rise in job creation has been the most spectacular element of this Coalition Govt's management of the economy and I suspect has wrong-footed just about everybody.

    Not least those on the Left predicting 5 million unemployed....


    LOL, all those zero hour no pay jobs are wonderful for the plebs, how clever they are to have such a boom. Thick rich Tory parasites hail it as superb.

    Add one million people being fed by foodbanks and a 71% rise in malnutrition this year.An economic miracle for the bankers sharing £40 billion in bonuses but permafrost wages for the many..The Tories call it success.
    The Tories are even useless at bigot-baiting with the immigration figures coming back to bite them too.
    Never under-estimate the stupidity of the Tory party.



    Cameron's objective on immigration was a target not a promise. Get your facts right before you spout off.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    I also like the fact that Jerry Hayes accuses eurosceptics of "poisonous explosion of bile".

    Other sentences from his post:

    "But we are told that the likes of Carswell are men and women of great principle, fearlessly fighting for our rights. For, God’s sake please pause while I am violently sick."

    "This act of treacherous vanity must have been bubbling away on the back burner for years."

    "THOSE PARASITES WHO ARE INFECTING OUR PARTY."
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG As is seen from the likes of Yes backer Brian Souter and the Yes mob baiting Murphy Yes are hardly sweetness and light either

    At least in Scotland , Souter does not get kickbacks or knighthoods for his support.
    SIR Brian Souter?

    That one?

    Or another Brian Souter?

    Brian Souter knighted in Queen's birthday honours

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13725892
    He is so bad and evil that unionists in London decided to give him a gong
    SNP in row over Brian Souter knighthood
    THE SNP's relationship with Sir Brian Souter was under fire again from Labour last night after it emerged that the Scottish Government had nominated him - the SNP's biggest donor - for his knighthood.


    http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-in-row-over-brian-souter-knighthood-1-1775491

    Not the sharpest tool in the box......any minute now he'll be running to teacher....
    Go celebrate your BN friends
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Charles said:

    Socrates said:

    @Luckyguy1983

    It's a strange time indeed to be saying we should be copying the French economic model.

    Not saying we should adopt their economic model. They simply declared Danone a strategic industry and that was that. That's not an economic model, it's sheer cheek. Which in some cases, yes I think we could do with copying.

    So you would prevent the owners of Cadbury selling to whoever they wished?

    And stopping the capital being recycled into people's pensions and productive new enterprises?

    The United States does this too, and that country is no back number on the productive new enterprises front.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @Floater

    "Its not just politics that seems broke, its the entire system."

    And that is why it is absolutely essential that you keep voting for the parties that have created and maintain the present system.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,815
    Socrates said:

    @Luckyguy1983

    The French mollycoddling of their "national champions" has led to a huge stifling of French productivity, as it did for the UK when we tried it in the 1970s.

    I don't doubt it; I merely contend that in an imperfect world, governments must sometimes intervene to protect vital national interests.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    saddened said:



    Care to step back from your impotent rage to tell us how 'saving' the Harrier GR9 fleet would have improved military effectiveness? In addition, how the previous out-of-service date of 2018 for the GR9's would have been much use on the Queen Elizabeth, which is only due in initial service in 2017?

    Whilst you are at it, you may want to look at the differences between the GR9's and the Sea Harriers, and see why the former are not particularly suited for naval warfare, especially Falklands-style operations.
    Perhaps it would be simpler if you could explain to me how the carrier works better with *no* planes than *some* planes.

    It's like saying because we don't have any racing cars we should just use go karts, they're better than nothing. It's that magnitude of capability loss.
    Happy to go with your analogy, providing the Go-karts are at least better than standing still (not walking -that would suggest flying was possible with no planes).
    It's a stupid analogy, as you'd be flying planes unfit for air combat against much more capable planes. You'd be sending old, slow planes in blind against modern fighters.

    Try racing your go-kart against BTCC cars and see how long you live.

    (The USMC, the Spanish and Italian Navies were all sensible and ordered their Harrier-II's with radars)

    You are of course correct, but the AV8B is a much modified and much superior plane to the first British Harriers.
    The AV8B entered US service in 1985 and so clearly supersedes what we think of as Harriers as used in the Falklands. Britain did also produce an improved radar equipped Sea Harrier - c1993 - my understanding is that all 'sea harriers' were anti aircraft capable but these were sold by Labour in 2006, leaving just ground attack planes which were designed to be land based.

    Given that we had a great many Jaguars and Tornadoes I wonder at the decision to sell sea harriers and not the GR version.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited August 2014
    @perdix

    Cameron is 50% above his target even if you entirely excluded EU migration.

    We all know he has failed on migration at this point. The question is now: what will he do to make sure it happens in the next parliament? What new restrictions will he bring in? What tougher action will he take? The silence is deafening.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    MalcolmG As Carlotta points out it was Salmond who nominated him for it
  • Edin_RokzEdin_Rokz Posts: 516
    HYUFD said:
    Er! The slide rule not working?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    Carnyx I would allow some form of Devomax if it is a No, but we cannot have this issue hanging over us for ever it needs to be settled one way or the other Yes or No, Salmond and the SNP of course ultimately want independence not Devomax, that is just a means to an end, a referendum with a big majority for Devomax would simply add fuel to the independence flames
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336
    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnN UKIP won 10% of the vote in this year's Euro elections in Scotland, if all of those voters vote No that could be key, I doubt any working class Glasgow Catholics are not already voting Yes, Glasgow sadly will probably largely split along Rangers, Celtic lines

    No are relying on all their nasty partners to vote for them in a forlorn hope that allying themselves with any nasty group may save them. An unholy alliance indeed.
    Also despite the bampots , there are lots of Rangers supporters for YES also, they are not all bigots.
    Reports coming in on Twitter of the treasurer of a No partner group attacking a pregnant Yes campaigner by kicking her in the stomach when canvassing in the street in Glasgow - unconfirmed as yet but as he is named and said to have been arrested and charged, one would hope the reports are accurate for the authors' sakes.

    Not clear whether he was canvassing as a Better Together person but he is reported to have been using their bumf at the time.

    Will be interesting to see how the media cover that compared with Mr Murphy's egg. But very depressing.
    Is the BNP an "official" partner group? (I don't know, but I'd be surprised). Or does "partner group" just mean that they also oppose Scottish independence?

    "BNP thug in violent attack on innocent person" isn't really a surprise and it's a but of a smear to try and associate that sort of behaviour with Better Together as a whole.
    Wasn't BNP it seems (unless someone knows more than I do). The group in question (whatever the actual facts of the incident itself) is indeed 'registered' as a 'permitted participant' on the No side, with the Electoral Commission, but is not formally part of the main Better Together/No Thanks campaign which is the Lead Campaigner.

    Indee dthe BNP are not an official group against indy, at least at that level (IIRC it applies to notifiable funding/spending >£10K so perhaps they are involved at a lower level):

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/scottish-referendum/register-of-campaigners-at-the-scottish-independence-referendum

    Indeed we don't know the exact affiliation of the canvassing party or whether the person was there in his capacity as a member of the group that has been cited. All that can be said is that ther bumf was being used, which is (as I implied but should have made clearer) doesn't mean much.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG As is seen from the likes of Yes backer Brian Souter and the Yes mob baiting Murphy Yes are hardly sweetness and light either

    At least in Scotland , Souter does not get kickbacks or knighthoods for his support.
    SIR Brian Souter?

    That one?

    Or another Brian Souter?

    Brian Souter knighted in Queen's birthday honours

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13725892
    He is so bad and evil that unionists in London decided to give him a gong
    SNP in row over Brian Souter knighthood
    THE SNP's relationship with Sir Brian Souter was under fire again from Labour last night after it emerged that the Scottish Government had nominated him - the SNP's biggest donor - for his knighthood.


    http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-in-row-over-brian-souter-knighthood-1-1775491

    Not the sharpest tool in the box......any minute now he'll be running to teacher....
    Go celebrate your BN friends
    You're having a bad day.

    First it was "Souter hasn't got a knighthood", then it was "he was given it by Westminster".

    Neither true. He has, awarded on the recommendation of the SNP.

    Now you are claiming (again, falsely) that the BNP are part of "Better Together"

    A quick glance at the Electoral Commission web site blows another of your lies out of the water:

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/scottish-referendum/register-of-campaigners-at-the-scottish-independence-referendum

    Are you a fool or a knave?
  • HYUFD said:
    HYUFD I fear you forgot to multiply by 100. Should be 7.8%!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG As is seen from the likes of Yes backer Brian Souter and the Yes mob baiting Murphy Yes are hardly sweetness and light either

    At least in Scotland , Souter does not get kickbacks or knighthoods for his support.
    SIR Brian Souter?

    That one?

    Or another Brian Souter?

    Brian Souter knighted in Queen's birthday honours

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13725892
    He is so bad and evil that unionists in London decided to give him a gong
    SNP in row over Brian Souter knighthood
    THE SNP's relationship with Sir Brian Souter was under fire again from Labour last night after it emerged that the Scottish Government had nominated him - the SNP's biggest donor - for his knighthood.


    http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-in-row-over-brian-souter-knighthood-1-1775491

    Not the sharpest tool in the box......any minute now he'll be running to teacher....
    Go celebrate your BN friends
    You need to reread the article. It confirms that the SG (in the sense of the SNP) are not involved.



  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,815

    saddened said:



    Care to step back from your impotent rage to tell us how 'saving' the Harrier GR9 fleet would have improved military effectiveness? In addition, how the previous out-of-service date of 2018 for the GR9's would have been much use on the Queen Elizabeth, which is only due in initial service in 2017?

    Whilst you are at it, you may want to look at the differences between the GR9's and the Sea Harriers, and see why the former are not particularly suited for naval warfare, especially Falklands-style operations.
    Perhaps it would be simpler if you could explain to me how the carrier works better with *no* planes than *some* planes.

    It's like saying because we don't have any racing cars we should just use go karts, they're better than nothing. It's that magnitude of capability loss.
    Happy to go with your analogy, providing the Go-karts are at least better than standing still (not walking -that would suggest flying was possible with no planes).
    It's a stupid analogy, as you'd be flying planes unfit for air combat against much more capable planes. You'd be sending old, slow planes in blind against modern fighters.

    Try racing your go-kart against BTCC cars and see how long you live.

    (The USMC, the Spanish and Italian Navies were all sensible and ordered their Harrier-II's with radars)

    If a weapon cannot be used; it isn't a weapon. If this country or its territory, God forbid, were to be attacked, and an aircraft carrier needed, I dare say unfit planes would have to be used, if available, in favour of none at all. Or perhaps we could write people a nice letter asking them not to attack us for the next decade.

    The farce of military procurement and the sorry state of our armed services is ongoing, and I am by no means absolving the previous Labour administration of culpability. But the original contention was that nothing could be done about these issues, because they are too complex. Your own suggestions indicate that this isn't true, that bad decisions have been made all along the line, and presumably that better ones can still be made.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnN UKIP won 10% of the vote in this year's Euro elections in Scotland, if all of those voters vote No that could be key, I doubt any working class Glasgow Catholics are not already voting Yes, Glasgow sadly will probably largely split along Rangers, Celtic lines

    No are relying on all their nasty partners to vote for them in a forlorn hope that allying themselves with any nasty group may save them. An unholy alliance indeed.
    Also despite the bampots , there are lots of Rangers supporters for YES also, they are not all bigots.
    Reports coming in on Twitter of the treasurer of a No partner group attacking a pregnant Yes campaigner by kicking her in the stomach when canvassing in the street in Glasgow - unconfirmed as yet but as he is named and said to have been arrested and charged, one would hope the reports are accurate for the authors' sakes.

    Not clear whether he was canvassing as a Better Together person but he is reported to have been using their bumf at the time.

    Will be interesting to see how the media cover that compared with Mr Murphy's egg. But very depressing.
    Is the BNP an "official" partner group? (I don't know, but I'd be surprised). Or does "partner group" just mean that they also oppose Scottish independence?

    "BNP thug in violent attack on innocent person" isn't really a surprise and it's a but of a smear to try and associate that sort of behaviour with Better Together as a whole.
    Wasn't BNP it seems (unless someone knows more than I do). The group in question (whatever the actual facts of the incident itself) is indeed 'registered' as a 'permitted participant' on the No side, with the Electoral Commission, but is not formally part of the main Better Together/No Thanks campaign which is the Lead Campaigner.

    Indee dthe BNP are not an official group against indy, at least at that level (IIRC it applies to notifiable funding/spending >£10K so perhaps they are involved at a lower level):

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/scottish-referendum/register-of-campaigners-at-the-scottish-independence-referendum

    Indeed we don't know the exact affiliation of the canvassing party or whether the person was there in his capacity as a member of the group that has been cited. All that can be said is that ther bumf was being used, which is (as I implied but should have made clearer) doesn't mean much.
    You can be sure they will try to say it is nothing to do with them, they always do. It is only if it is YES that everybody and anybody is official.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336
    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG The BNP have nothing whatsoever to do with BT and you know it, the BNP are thugs and will continue to be thugs after the referendum

    BNP reportedly not involved. Suggest everyone stops mentioning them lest their Treasurer getupset with OGH.

    Carnyx said:


    Reports coming in on Twitter of the treasurer of a No partner group attacking a pregnant Yes campaigner by kicking her in the stomach when canvassing in the street in Glasgow - unconfirmed as yet but as he is named and said to have been arrested and charged, one would hope the reports are accurate for the authors' sakes.

    Not clear whether he was canvassing as a Better Together person but he is reported to have been using their bumf at the time.

    Will be interesting to see how the media cover that compared with Mr Murphy's egg. But very depressing.

    Out of interest did you know when you posted that the "partner group" was the BNP?
    No, something else which I'm not at all familiar with (as I said in another posting).

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited August 2014
    Afternoon all.

    How's "The Right's" suicide pact going?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG As is seen from the likes of Yes backer Brian Souter and the Yes mob baiting Murphy Yes are hardly sweetness and light either

    At least in Scotland , Souter does not get kickbacks or knighthoods for his support.
    SIR Brian Souter?

    That one?

    Or another Brian Souter?

    Brian Souter knighted in Queen's birthday honours

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13725892
    He is so bad and evil that unionists in London decided to give him a gong
    SNP in row over Brian Souter knighthood
    THE SNP's relationship with Sir Brian Souter was under fire again from Labour last night after it emerged that the Scottish Government had nominated him - the SNP's biggest donor - for his knighthood.


    http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-in-row-over-brian-souter-knighthood-1-1775491

    Not the sharpest tool in the box......any minute now he'll be running to teacher....
    Go celebrate your BN friends
    You need to reread the article. It confirms that the SG (in the sense of the SNP) are not involved.



    Carnyx was that to Carlotta or myself
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    perdix said:



    Of course they have. Both are very difficult and steps in the right direction are all that we can legitimately hope for.
    ...
    Cameron can be criticised for promising to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands because unless we had an economic disaster of Brownian proportions it was never going to happen but when did we last elect a politician whose response to every problem is that it is all terribly difficult?

    ..
    I imagine it was made with no expectation that the UK economy would be growing quite so remarkably in relation to the rest of the EU. The rise in job creation has been the most spectacular element of this Coalition Govt's management of the economy and I suspect has wrong-footed just about everybody.

    Not least those on the Left predicting 5 million unemployed....


    LOL, all those zero hour no pay jobs are wonderful for the plebs, how clever they are to have such a boom. Thick rich Tory parasites hail it as superb.

    Add one million people being fed by foodbanks and a 71% rise in malnutrition this year.An economic miracle for the bankers sharing £40 billion in bonuses but permafrost wages for the many..The Tories call it success.
    The Tories are even useless at bigot-baiting with the immigration figures coming back to bite them too.
    Never under-estimate the stupidity of the Tory party.



    Cameron's objective on immigration was a target not a promise. Get your facts right before you spout off.



    This is just socialist propaganda.
    The incoming govt have done something serious about immigration, not leas stopping bogus students. EU immigtration is helping our economy and over time many of these people will return as theor own country's grow. Long term our links with them will no dounbt hel[p our own exports.

    Its you talking about 'plebs' and demeaning zero hour jobs. You do this because you cannot face up to economic success under the tories.

    The coalition - lets face it the tory govt - have done a good job over a wide range of issues - only the prejudiced can deny it. Fundamentally what do UKIP stand for? Hate. Starting with muslims and then working through any one who is coloured or chinese looking and then going on to Romanians, eastern europeans, passing on through the Germans and ending with the French. Interestingly the great kipper hero is a totalitarian Russian, Putin. Their biggest hate is of course the Ukraine.

    Farage is a nasty piece of work, a chancer who has stumbled into a rich seam of hatred and irrational fear in order to keep himself on the gravy train. But what really disgusts me is the way he is happy to facilitate a Miliband govt.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnN UKIP won 10% of the vote in this year's Euro elections in Scotland, if all of those voters vote No that could be key, I doubt any working class Glasgow Catholics are not already voting Yes, Glasgow sadly will probably largely split along Rangers, Celtic lines

    No are relying on all their nasty partners to vote for them in a forlorn hope that allying themselves with any nasty group may save them. An unholy alliance indeed.
    Also despite the bampots , there are lots of Rangers supporters for YES also, they are not all bigots.
    .

    Not clear whether he was canvassing as a Better Together person but he is reported to have been using their bumf at the time.

    Will be interesting to see how the media cover that compared with Mr Murphy's egg. But very depressing.
    Is the BNP an "official" partner group? (I don't know, but I'd be surprised). Or does "partner group" just mean that they also oppose Scottish independence?

    "BNP thug in violent attack on innocent person" isn't really a surprise and it's a but of a smear to try and associate that sort of behaviour with Better Together as a whole.
    Wasn't BNP it seems (unless someone knows more than I do). The group in question (whatever the actual facts of the incident itself) is indeed 'registered' as a 'permitted participant' on the No side, with the Electoral Commission, but is not formally part of the main Better Together/No Thanks campaign which is the Lead Campaigner.

    Indee dthe BNP are not an official group against indy, at least at that level (IIRC it applies to notifiable funding/spending >£10K so perhaps they are involved at a lower level):

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/scottish-referendum/register-of-campaigners-at-the-scottish-independence-referendum

    Indeed we don't know the exact affiliation of the canvassing party or whether the person was there in his capacity as a member of the group that has been cited. All that can be said is that ther bumf was being used, which is (as I implied but should have made clearer) doesn't mean much.
    You can be sure they will try to say it is nothing to do with them, they always do. It is only if it is YES that everybody and anybody is official.
    Possibly because it was nothing to do with them?

    Have the Cybernats discovered a "let's kick pregnant women" twitter feed, for example?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG As is seen from the likes of Yes backer Brian Souter and the Yes mob baiting Murphy Yes are hardly sweetness and light either

    At least in Scotland , Souter does not get kickbacks or knighthoods for his support.
    SIR Brian Souter?

    That one?

    Or another Brian Souter?

    Brian Souter knighted in Queen's birthday honours

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13725892
    He is so bad and evil that unionists in London decided to give him a gong
    SNP in row over Brian Souter knighthood
    THE SNP's relationship with Sir Brian Souter was under fire again from Labour last night after it emerged that the Scottish Government had nominated him - the SNP's biggest donor - for his knighthood.


    http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-in-row-over-brian-souter-knighthood-1-1775491

    Not the sharpest tool in the box......any minute now he'll be running to teacher....
    Go celebrate your BN friends
    You need to reread the article. It confirms that the SG (in the sense of the SNP) are not involved.



    Carnyx was that to Carlotta or myself
    To Carlotta, sorry.

    But your comment reminds me that for the SNp to give Sir Brian his knighthood just when the single sex marriage issue was IIRC coming up would have been surprising.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG As is seen from the likes of Yes backer Brian Souter and the Yes mob baiting Murphy Yes are hardly sweetness and light either

    At least in Scotland , Souter does not get kickbacks or knighthoods for his support.
    SIR Brian Souter?

    That one?

    Or another Brian Souter?

    Brian Souter knighted in Queen's birthday honours

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13725892
    He is so bad and evil that unionists in London decided to give him a gong
    SNP in row over Brian Souter knighthood
    THE SNP's relationship with Sir Brian Souter was under fire again from Labour last night after it emerged that the Scottish Government had nominated him - the SNP's biggest donor - for his knighthood.


    http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-in-row-over-brian-souter-knighthood-1-1775491

    Not the sharpest tool in the box......any minute now he'll be running to teacher....
    Go celebrate your BN friends
    You're having a bad day.

    First it was "Souter hasn't got a knighthood", then it was "he was given it by Westminster".

    Neither true. He has, awarded on the recommendation of the SNP.

    Now you are claiming (again, falsely) that the BNP are part of "Better Together"

    A quick glance at the Electoral Commission web site blows another of your lies out of the water:

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/scottish-referendum/register-of-campaigners-at-the-scottish-independence-referendum

    Are you a fool or a knave?
    They are all part of the unionist team, you can split hairs and say that because they say they are not officially together they are joined at the hip in pushing for NO.
    You are very good at pontificating that everybody for YES is in official but somehow when its unionists it is different. Up here we know whose side who is on and BT have some not very nice "friends".
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG As is seen from the likes of Yes backer Brian Souter and the Yes mob baiting Murphy Yes are hardly sweetness and light either

    At least in Scotland , Souter does not get kickbacks or knighthoods for his support.
    SIR Brian Souter?

    That one?

    Or another Brian Souter?

    Brian Souter knighted in Queen's birthday honours

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13725892
    He is so bad and evil that unionists in London decided to give him a gong
    SNP in row over Brian Souter knighthood
    THE SNP's relationship with Sir Brian Souter was under fire again from Labour last night after it emerged that the Scottish Government had nominated him - the SNP's biggest donor - for his knighthood.


    http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-in-row-over-brian-souter-knighthood-1-1775491

    Not the sharpest tool in the box......any minute now he'll be running to teacher....
    Go celebrate your BN friends
    You need to reread the article. It confirms that the SG (in the sense of the SNP) are not involved.



    Carnyx was that to Carlotta or myself
    To Carlotta, sorry.

    But your comment reminds me that for the SNp to give Sir Brian his knighthood just when the single sex marriage issue was IIRC coming up would have been surprising.

    Which article? Are you disputing that the SNP put Souter forward for a Knighthood? I've posted several links confirming it, and the subsequent brouhaha when the SNP's biggest donor got a gong....

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    Sunil Indeed, ie 7% as I said
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    MalcolmG Ie nothing to do with the official BT campaign then
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG As is seen from the likes of Yes backer Brian Souter and the Yes mob baiting Murphy Yes are hardly sweetness and light either

    At least in Scotland , Souter does not get kickbacks or knighthoods for his support.
    SIR Brian Souter?

    That one?

    Or another Brian Souter?

    Brian Souter knighted in Queen's birthday honours

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13725892
    He is so bad and evil that unionists in London decided to give him a gong
    SNP in row over Brian Souter knighthood
    THE SNP's relationship with Sir Brian Souter was under fire again from Labour last night after it emerged that the Scottish Government had nominated him - the SNP's biggest donor - for his knighthood.


    http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-in-row-over-brian-souter-knighthood-1-1775491

    Not the sharpest tool in the box......any minute now he'll be running to teacher....
    Go celebrate your BN friends
    You're having a bad day.

    First it was "Souter hasn't got a knighthood", then it was "he was given it by Westminster".

    Neither true. He has, awarded on the recommendation of the SNP.

    Now you are claiming (again, falsely) that the BNP are part of "Better Together"

    A quick glance at the Electoral Commission web site blows another of your lies out of the water:

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/scottish-referendum/register-of-campaigners-at-the-scottish-independence-referendum

    Are you a fool or a knave?
    You are very good at pontificating that everybody for YES is in official but somehow when its unionists it is different.
    No, I am asking for evidence - like the Twitter threads on the Murphy barrackings - showing the same thing for this event.

    Until you have that you are skating on very thin ice.

  • Scotland was 8.5% of the UK last time I looked. Seems now only 7.8%. That's a fairly sharp relative movement. Does it mean we keep an extra destroyer or something?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Charles said:

    Socrates said:

    @Luckyguy1983

    It's a strange time indeed to be saying we should be copying the French economic model.

    Not saying we should adopt their economic model. They simply declared Danone a strategic industry and that was that. That's not an economic model, it's sheer cheek. Which in some cases, yes I think we could do with copying.

    So you would prevent the owners of Cadbury selling to whoever they wished?

    And stopping the capital being recycled into people's pensions and productive new enterprises?

    Have you any evidence of that ?

    The UK is more the loser in that deal than the winner.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "This is just socialist propaganda. ....

    Fundamentally what do UKIP stand for? Hate."

    Apparently only one sort of propaganda is unacceptable. I worry sometimes.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    JohnN UKIP won 10% of the vote in this year's Euro elections in Scotland, if all of those voters vote No that could be key, I doubt any working class Glasgow Catholics are not already voting Yes, Glasgow sadly will probably largely split along Rangers, Celtic lines

    are not all bigots.
    .


    Is the BNP an "official" partner group? (I don't know, but I'd be surprised). Or does "partner group" just mean that they also oppose Scottish independence?

    "BNP thug in violent attack on innocent person" isn't really a surprise and it's a but of a smear to try and associate that sort of behaviour with Better Together as a whole.
    Wasn't BNP it seems (unless someone knows more than I do). The group in question (whatever the actual facts of the incident itself) is indeed 'registered' as a 'permitted participant' on the No side, with the Electoral Commission, but is not formally part of the main Better Together/No Thanks campaign which is the Lead Campaigner.

    Indee dthe BNP are not an official group against indy, at least at that level (IIRC it applies to notifiable funding/spending >£10K so perhaps they are involved at a lower level):

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/scottish-referendum/register-of-campaigners-at-the-scottish-independence-referendum

    Indeed we don't know the exact affiliation of the canvassing party or whether the person was there in his capacity as a member of the group that has been cited. All that can be said is that ther bumf was being used, which is (as I implied but should have made clearer) doesn't mean much.
    You can be sure they will try to say it is nothing to do with them, they always do. It is only if it is YES that everybody and anybody is official.
    Possibly because it was nothing to do with them?

    Have the Cybernats discovered a "let's kick pregnant women" twitter feed, for example?
    Whoever they were they were campaigning for NO , ie same as BT and one of them allegedly kicked a pregnant woman who was unconscious for a period.
    As I suspected , whilst you spent days whining about an egg being thrown and making out it was orchestrated by YES , you dismiss a pregnant woman being assaulted as it was done by a unionist supporter.
    Not very edifying.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    SeanT said:
    Why have the wusses closed the comments?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    perdix said:



    Of course they have. Both are very difficult and steps in the right direction are all that we can legitimately hope for.
    ...
    Cameron can be criticised for promising to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands because unless we had an economic disaster of Brownian proportions it was never going to happen but when did we last elect a politician whose response to every problem is that it is all terribly difficult?

    ..
    I imagine it was made with no expectation that the UK economy would be growing quite so remarkably in relation to the rest of the EU. The rise in job creation has been the most spectacular element of this Coalition Govt's management of the economy and I suspect has wrong-footed just about everybody.

    Not least those on the Left predicting 5 million unemployed....
    LOL, all those zero hour no pay jobs are wonderful for the plebs, how clever they are to have such a boom. Thick rich Tory parasites hail it as superb.

    Add one million people being fed by foodbanks and a 71% rise in malnutrition this year.An economic miracle for the bankers sharing £40 billion in bonuses but permafrost wages for the many..The Tories call it success.
    The Tories are even useless at bigot-baiting with the immigration figures coming back to bite them too.
    Never under-estimate the stupidity of the Tory party.



    Cameron's objective on immigration was a target not a promise. Get your facts right before you spout off.



    This is just socialist propaganda.
    The incoming govt have done something serious about immigration, not leas stopping bogus students. EU immigtration is helping our economy and over time many of these people will return as theor own country's grow. Long term our links with them will no dounbt hel[p our own exports.

    Its you talking about 'plebs' and demeaning zero hour jobs. You do this because you cannot face up to economic success under the tories.

    The coalition - lets face it the tory govt - have done a good job over a wide range of issues - only the prejudiced can deny it. Fundamentally what do UKIP stand for? Hate. Starting with muslims and then working through any one who is coloured or chinese looking and then going on to Romanians, eastern europeans, passing on through the Germans and ending with the French. Interestingly the great kipper hero is a totalitarian Russian, Putin. Their biggest hate is of course the Ukraine.

    Farage is a nasty piece of work, a chancer who has stumbled into a rich seam of hatred and irrational fear in order to keep himself on the gravy train. But what really disgusts me is the way he is happy to facilitate a Miliband govt.


    Another BT "partner " in the NO campaign, official or not.
  • Edin_RokzEdin_Rokz Posts: 516
    Patrick said:

    Scotland was 8.5% of the UK last time I looked. Seems now only 7.8%. That's a fairly sharp relative movement. Does it mean we keep an extra destroyer or something?

    Nope! Just shows the success of Salmond's Home Coming 2014
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    SeanT said:
    And a jolly good blog piece it is Mr. T. I would have said so on the Telegraph site but they are not allowing anyone to comment. I cannot imagine why.
  • Nice article Sean. I think political correctness has eaten itself. It's become uncool. I expect a backlash of ordinary decent people saying what they think. Imagine!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    test
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Here is a prediction which I hope people will remind me of post Clacton by election

    Ukip will win easily, but not by as much as 44%

    People on PB, including some of the thread writers, will say that the margin of victory was not enough, and it is a disappointing result for ukip.

    The same people will obviously no longer be able to say "how many MPs?" Or "representation in the HofC is all that matters" and so will say "one MP isn't really anything to shout about", or "ukip haven't won a seat with one of their own candidates yet, that is the true test"
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336
    edited August 2014
    malcolmg said:



    [editd for space]

    Have the Cybernats discovered a "let's kick pregnant women" twitter feed, for example?

    Whoever they were they were campaigning for NO , ie same as BT and one of them allegedly kicked a pregnant woman who was unconscious for a period.
    As I suspected , whilst you spent days whining about an egg being thrown and making out it was orchestrated by YES , you dismiss a pregnant woman being assaulted as it was done by a unionist supporter.
    Not very edifying.
    Apart from wondering wh the BBC didn't put the Cybernats into the latest [edit: Dr Who] TV series, it strikes me that the other very significant difference is that the second assault was reportedly carried out by someone acting as part of a No campaign (sensu lato) team. Not an isolated bystander.

    It's actually a matter of perception but also law. If, for instance, someone was acting as an official volunteer on a BT stand and then committed a crime in that capacity, BT would have egg on its face (so to speak) publicity wise, and possibly even legal liability, even though it had not ordered any such attacks. So it will be interesting to see what the actual facts of the incident are.

    Edit: Update, some media reports now. Arrested, not apparently charged yet.



  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,144
    HYUFD said:
    FFS, how to waste an afternoon.

    Scotland's population as of 2011 Census is 5,295,000, UK population 63,182,000 = over 8.3%. Even if you go by the later ONS stats via the Daily Mail, 5.3m is 8.27% of 64.1m.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:



    [editd for space]

    Have the Cybernats discovered a "let's kick pregnant women" twitter feed, for example?

    Whoever they were they were campaigning for NO , ie same as BT and one of them allegedly kicked a pregnant woman who was unconscious for a period.
    As I suspected , whilst you spent days whining about an egg being thrown and making out it was orchestrated by YES , you dismiss a pregnant woman being assaulted as it was done by a unionist supporter.
    Not very edifying.
    Apart from wondering wh the BBC didn't put the Cybernats into the latest [edit: Dr Who] TV series, it strikes me that the other very significant difference is that the second assault was reportedly carried out by someone acting as part of a No campaign (sensu lato) team. Not an isolated bystander.

    It's actually a matter of perception but also law. If, for instance, someone was acting as an official volunteer on a BT stand and then committed a crime in that capacity, BT would have egg on its face (so to speak) publicity wise, and possibly even legal liability, even though it had not ordered any such attacks. So it will be interesting to see what the actual facts of the incident are.



    It will not be reported
  • I also think that there is no possibility whatever that Rotherham is an isolated event. There will be more and more of these horror stories emerging for weeks and months to come. The 'middle ground' of opinion on matters of race and religion will move. And that is a GOOD thing!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2014
    Patrick said:

    Nice article Sean. I think political correctness has eaten itself. It's become uncool. I expect a backlash of ordinary decent people saying what they think. Imagine!

    "Decent, ordinary fellow Englishman" saying what they think???

    Maybe they should speak to their mp and hope they make a speech about it!!

    Then see their career go up in flames while others ruin the country
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:


    As I suspected , whilst you spent days whining about an egg being thrown and making out it was orchestrated by YES , you dismiss a pregnant woman being assaulted as it was done by a unionist supporter.
    Not very edifying.

    I think you'll find my first comment was this:
    Link to reliable source? If true it's disgraceful - was it an attack coordinated on Twitter too?
    Since then;
    1) No link to reliable source
    2) identity of alleged attacker withdrawn and changed
    3) allegation that it was a BT group disproved
    4) no evidence that the attack was part of a coordinated campaign provided.

    And you accuse me of "dismissing it"?

    Whoever did it was a thug - and trying to smear your political opponents is disgraceful.

    Not very edifying.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    perdix said:



    Of course they have. Both are very difficult and steps in the right direction are all that we can legitimately hope for.
    ...
    Cameron can be criticised for promising to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands because unless we had an economic disaster of Brownian proportions it was never going to happen but when did we last elect a politician whose response to every problem is that it is all terribly difficult?

    ..
    I imagine it was made with no expectation that the UK economy would be growing quite so remarkably in relation to the rest of the EU. The rise in job creation has been the most spectacular element of this Coalition Govt's management of the economy and I suspect has wrong-footed just about everybody.

    Not least those on the Left predicting 5 million unemployed....
    LOL, all those zero hour no pay jobs are wonderful for the plebs, how clever they are to have such a boom. Thick rich Tory parasites hail it as superb.

    Add one million people being fed by foodbanks and a 71% rise in malnutrition this year.An economic miracle for the bankers sharing £40 billion in bonuses but permafrost wages for the many..The Tories call it success.
    The Tories are even useless at bigot-baiting with the immigration figures coming back to bite them too.
    Never under-estimate the stupidity of the Tory party.



    Cameron's objective on immigration was a target not a promise. Get your facts right before you spout off.



    This is just socialist propaganda.
    The incoming govt have done something serious about immigration, not leas stopping bogus students. EU immigtration is helping our economy and over time many of these people will return as theor own country's grow. Long term our links with them will no dounbt hel[p our own exports.

    Its you talking about 'plebs' and demeaning zero hour jobs. You do this because you cannot face up to economic success under the tories.

    The coalition - lets face it the tory govt - have done a good job over a wide range of issues - only the prejudiced can deny it. Fundamentally what do UKIP stand for? Hate. Starting with muslims and then working through any one who is coloured or chinese looking and then going on to Romanians, eastern europeans, passing on through the Germans and ending with the French. Interestingly the great kipper hero is a totalitarian Russian, Putin. Their biggest hate is of course the Ukraine.

    Farage is a nasty piece of work, a chancer who has stumbled into a rich seam of hatred and irrational fear in order to keep himself on the gravy train. But what really disgusts me is the way he is happy to facilitate a Miliband govt.


    You think that kind of rant will win back former Conservatives who now support UKIP?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    edited August 2014
    SeanT said:
    admirable sentiments, but we're still faced with Miliband's and Cameron's omerta on the subject

    and worse HMG appear to have done nothing to catch the perpetrators.

    They can issue an EAW for parents who stick two fingers at the NHS but will do nothing about the cess-pit in their own jurisdiction.

    Lamentable.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:


    As I suspected , whilst you spent days whining about an egg being thrown and making out it was orchestrated by YES , you dismiss a pregnant woman being assaulted as it was done by a unionist supporter.
    Not very edifying.

    I think you'll find my first comment was this:
    Link to reliable source? If true it's disgraceful - was it an attack coordinated on Twitter too?
    Since then;
    1) No link to reliable source
    2) identity of alleged attacker withdrawn and changed
    3) allegation that it was a BT group disproved
    4) no evidence that the attack was part of a coordinated campaign provided.

    And you accuse me of "dismissing it"?

    Whoever did it was a thug - and trying to smear your political opponents is disgraceful.

    Not very edifying.

    cauldron getting well used today
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    I reckon Jerry Hayes must be blogging from Jonestown.

    His preceding blog post, about Clacton's inhabitants, is off the wall.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    edited August 2014
    TUD 59 MPs out of 650 is 0.09 ie 9% and more than the population of Scotland deserves even on the population figures you have just posted
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Patrick said:

    I also think that there is no possibility whatever that Rotherham is an isolated event. There will be more and more of these horror stories emerging for weeks and months to come. The 'middle ground' of opinion on matters of race and religion will move. And that is a GOOD thing!

    Who could have seen it coming though?

    "Now we are seeing the growth of positive forces acting against integration, of vested interests in the preservation and sharpening of racial and religious differences, with a view to the exercise of actual domination, first over fellow-immigrants and then over the rest of the population. The cloud no bigger than a man's hand, that can so rapidly overcast the sky, has been visible recently in Wolverhampton and has shown signs of spreading quickly. "
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,709
    Pleased to see Mike citing Ford and Goodwin. When I mentioned their work a few months ago he first acccused them of 'Westminster ignorance' then as being intellectual frauds who were only interested in flogging a book.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Perhaps the Labour Councillor might advise some of his colleagues in Rotherham to do the same.

    "Mr Marland, Labour leader of the council, said: "He resigned to protect the reputation of the council but I think it is very difficult for him to remain and keep the trust of the public after advocating for someone who has been convicted of rape."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-29002397
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Uh oh, the Rivers of Froth are starting to gush again.

    Time for a spot of gardening.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    HYUFD said:

    TUD 59 MPs out of 650 is 0.09 ie 9% and more than the population of Scotland deserves even on the population figures you have just posted

    How about ONS from June 2014 showing it as now 10% compared to England , is that recent enough for you to put your stupid 7.8% to bed.

    The estimated populations of the four constituent countries of the UK in mid-2013 are 53.9 million (growth of 0.70%) in England, 5.3 million (growth of 0.27%) in Scotland, 3.1 million (growth of 0.27%) in Wales and 1.8 million (growth of 0.33%) in Northern Ireland.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Hugh said:

    Uh oh, the Rivers of Froth are starting to gush again.

    Time for a spot of gardening.

    Yes agree , stalker to the fore so time to go
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:
    Good to read an arrest has been made - which is more than appears to have happened in the Murphy assault.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Hugh said:

    Uh oh, the Rivers of Froth are starting to gush again.

    Time for a spot of gardening.

    Truth hurts. 1400 girls in Rotherham must wish he had been listened to though

    Happy gardening.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    TUD 59 MPs out of 650 is 0.09 ie 9% and more than the population of Scotland deserves even on the population figures you have just posted

    How about ONS from June 2014 showing it as now 10% compared to England , is that recent enough for you to put your stupid 7.8% to bed.

    The estimated populations of the four constituent countries of the UK in mid-2013 are 53.9 million (growth of 0.70%) in England, 5.3 million (growth of 0.27%) in Scotland, 3.1 million (growth of 0.27%) in Wales and 1.8 million (growth of 0.33%) in Northern Ireland.
    The question is % of UK, not % of England - and 8.3 is the current answer based on the figures you post.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    MalcG On your figures that gives a UK population of 64.1 million, and Scotland with a population of 5.3 million is 0.082% of that ie just over 8%
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    7/7
    Lee Rigby
    Returning Jihadists...

    "Yet even though that picture is dark and darkening, there is one factor which has not yet been injected. I do not know whether it will be tomorrow, or next year, or in five years; but it will come. That factor is firearms and explosives. With communities which are so divided nothing can prevent the injection of explosives which we know perfectly well from experience in other parts of the United Kingdom and the world. At first there will be horrified astonishment, and inquiry as to what we have done wrong that such things should be happening. Then there will be feverish endeavour to find methods to allay the supposed grievances which lie behind the violence. Then follows exploitation by those who use violence of the ascendancy they have thus gained over the majority and over authority. The thing goes forward, acting and reacting, until a position is reached in which—I shall dare say it—compared with those areas, Belfast today will seem an enviable place."

    Speech in the House of Commons on 24 May 1976
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @AlanBrooke

    "we're still faced with Miliband's and Cameron's omerta on the subject"

    It is remarkable, isn't it? Since the Jay report was published HMG have said very little and, apparently, done even less. Got to ask why.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    @AlanBrooke

    "we're still faced with Miliband's and Cameron's omerta on the subject"

    It is remarkable, isn't it? Since the Jay report was published HMG have said very little and, apparently, done even less. Got to ask why.

    I sort of expected that from Miliband, but Cameron's silence is just baffling.

    Not fit to lead I'm afraid.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    Carlotta Got him again!
  • I stick to my prediction that Dave will announce a full public enquiry on this tomorrow.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Take this comment by Jack Straw, Labour MP for Blackburn, and Home Secretary from 1997-2001, when the Rotherham atrocities were beginning. “The English are potentially very aggressive, very violent.”

    What did Straw say that about? It's a staggering thing to say about your own people.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336

    malcolmg said:


    As I suspected , whilst you spent days whining about an egg being thrown and making out it was orchestrated by YES , you dismiss a pregnant woman being assaulted as it was done by a unionist supporter.
    Not very edifying.

    I think you'll find my first comment was this:
    Link to reliable source? If true it's disgraceful - was it an attack coordinated on Twitter too?
    Since then;
    1) No link to reliable source
    2) identity of alleged attacker withdrawn and changed
    3) allegation that it was a BT group disproved
    4) no evidence that the attack was part of a coordinated campaign provided.

    And you accuse me of "dismissing it"?

    Whoever did it was a thug - and trying to smear your political opponents is disgraceful.

    Not very edifying.

    It was made clear the facts were still to be confirmed (and the point re charging was corrected) but that the story was worth keeping an eye on, especially as the reported use of BT literature raises the possibility - but no more than that - of the group involved being an official BT canvassing party. Of course anyone can grab a bunch of leaflets so arguments baded on the bumf alone are not valid, which is important to remember.

    Nobody - I hope - seriously believes it was part of a coordinated campaign - any more than anyone could seriously believe that Mr Murphy's egg was a "YeSNP" [sic] masterminded incident. On which your laudable comment re smears applies with full force till the facts are established for it as well.



  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    I don't think it is middle class lefty self loathing, I think it is loathing for the working class who could well take their position.

    I was driving in London with a bunch of left leaning colleagues, and went through a council estate. I was amazed at the scorn expressed by my passengers.
  • @AlanBrooke

    "we're still faced with Miliband's and Cameron's omerta on the subject"

    It is remarkable, isn't it? Since the Jay report was published HMG have said very little and, apparently, done even less. Got to ask why.

    I sort of expected that from Miliband, but Cameron's silence is just baffling.

    Not fit to lead I'm afraid.
    Dilettante Dave!
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    Uh oh, the Rivers of Froth are starting to gush again.

    Time for a spot of gardening.

    Truth hurts. 1400 girls in Rotherham must wish he had been listened to though

    Happy gardening.

    Since the Jay report, left-wingers on here have spent more time criticising the reaction to it than the abuse itself.

    Potentially hundreds of thosuands of child rapes, and they'd rather attack right-wingers.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Socrates said:

    Take this comment by Jack Straw, Labour MP for Blackburn, and Home Secretary from 1997-2001, when the Rotherham atrocities were beginning. “The English are potentially very aggressive, very violent.”

    What did Straw say that about? It's a staggering thing to say about your own people.

    English nationalism 'threat to UK'

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/596703.stm
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Patrick said:

    I stick to my prediction that Dave will announce a full public enquiry on this tomorrow.

    activity instead of action.

    We need arrests what with many of the rapists still walking the streets and sufficient reports that it's still going on despite the scandal.

    What exactly does it take for HMG to start applying the laws we have ?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Patrick said:

    I stick to my prediction that Dave will announce a full public enquiry on this tomorrow.

    Surely it will be a full, public, independent and judge-led enquiry (always assuming they can find a judge willing to do it). What might be better though is, as Mrs Free (lady of this parish) suggested the other day, actually doing something to bring those responsible for the cover-ups as well as the acts to account.

    Maybe the idea of holding people in authority to account for their actions is just something that Cameron cannot comprehend.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Socrates said:

    Take this comment by Jack Straw, Labour MP for Blackburn, and Home Secretary from 1997-2001, when the Rotherham atrocities were beginning. “The English are potentially very aggressive, very violent.”

    What did Straw say that about? It's a staggering thing to say about your own people.

    English nationalism 'threat to UK'

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/596703.stm
    as a conservative party animal, any explanation why Cameron has gone in to hiding on Rotherham ?
  • PAW said:

    I don't think it is middle class lefty self loathing, I think it is loathing for the working class who could well take their position.

    I was driving in London with a bunch of left leaning colleagues, and went through a council estate. I was amazed at the scorn expressed by my passengers.

    Perhaps the WWC are waking up to the contempt within which they are held by the Guardian / Islington types. Either they'll recapture the Labour party from the Fabian wonkish champagne socialist darlings or...they'll vote for someone else. That's why the very nature and scale of the Muslim sex gangs issue is so potentially explosive for them.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Patrick said:

    I stick to my prediction that Dave will announce a full public enquiry on this tomorrow.

    activity instead of action.

    We need arrests what with many of the rapists still walking the streets and sufficient reports that it's still going on despite the scandal.

    What exactly does it take for HMG to start applying the laws we have ?
    I agree, and am astonished at the current non-response of government, unless they're just getting over the shock?

    * Immigrate criminal gangs from Eastern Europe - that's ok.

    * Let political correctness allow thousands of child rapes - and just call for one resignation.

    * Devoted parents want to seek the best care for their child and disagree with the NHS - arrest them.

    I'm not a Kipper, but it fairly obvious why UKIP are gaining support.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Patrick said:

    I stick to my prediction that Dave will announce a full public enquiry on this tomorrow.

    activity instead of action.

    We need arrests what with many of the rapists still walking the streets and sufficient reports that it's still going on despite the scandal.

    What exactly does it take for HMG to start applying the laws we have ?
    I agree, and am astonished at the current non-response of government, unless they're just getting over the shock?

    * Immigrate criminal gangs from Eastern Europe - that's ok.

    * Let political correctness allow thousands of child rapes - and just call for one resignation.

    * Devoted parents want to seek the best care for their child and disagree with the NHS - arrest them.

    I'm not a Kipper, but it fairly obvious why UKIP are gaining support.

    I'm not a kipper either but It's not hard to see why I'm on a vote strike.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:
    Good to read an arrest has been made - which is more than appears to have happened in the Murphy assault.
    when you stage something you do not want your helper arrested, they have clear pictures but bet it never happens.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    edited August 2014
    Here malc one to cheer you up. ;-)

    Scotland was the only area in the UK where the Conservative vote increased.”

    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2014/05/ruth-davidson-msp-how-we-held-our-euro-seat-and-grew-our-vote-in-scotland.html
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    New Thread
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    edited August 2014
    HYUFD said:

    MalcG On your figures that gives a UK population of 64.1 million, and Scotland with a population of 5.3 million is 0.082% of that ie just over 8%

    you turnip we were discussing Scotland v England. Typical cheating unionist trying to fix the numbers and even on UK it scotches your last lie at 7.8% so double loser.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Thinking of the numbers on this is staggering.

    The "1400" number in Rotherham was considered a "conservative" estimate. It's probably closer to 2000 or 2500. But let's assume Rotherham was one of the worst examples and the average town where this happened had just 700 abuse victims - half the 'conservative' Rotherham level.

    The most horrific instances of abuse involved girls being prostituted out to men across a broad area. This could mean a dozen rapes in a night, whether the men came consecutively or gang raped her. If this happened a few times a week, then it's well possible some girls got raped a thousand times in a year. On the low side, girls more marginally on the edge of this might have just been targeted about once a month by a group of guys. That's still likely to be about 50 rapes a year if four or five rapists were involved. 100 rapes per year of an average victim seems conservative.

    The youngest girls were targeted at 11 or 12. They seem to have been dropped by these gangs by the time they were 15 or 16. Given that some girls may have escaped after a shorter period of time, let's estimate the average period of abuse was probably about three years.

    We are currently aware of this model of abuse definitely happening in Barking, Birmingham, Blackburn, Blackpool, Bradford, Derby, Ipswich, Keighley, Manchester, Nelson, Oldham, Oxford, Peterborough, Preston, Rochdale, Sheffield, Skipton and Telford in addition to Rotherham itself. I've also heard anecdotal reports on here about Tower Hamlets, Worcester and Luton. But let's keep ourselves grounded and and assume it only took place in the 19 towns mentioned.

    700 victims per town x 100 rapes a year x three years' of abuse per victim x 19 towns.

    Just under four million rapes. And this in a deliberate effort to scale down the numbers.

    FOUR MILLION CHILD RAPES.

    Four million rapes neglected or covered up by the establishment for fear of upsetting community sensitivities. And that's before we get to the torture, the psychological warfare and the outright murders.

    People like Nick Palmer have said I seem to be too angry to engage with. But isn't four million child rapes the sort of thing that it's justified to get angry about? This must surely be the worst thing that has happened to our country since the Second World War.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    The trouble is, we seem to have allowed the middle class to reserve good jobs for their own children. When I was at a grammar school the headmaster wanted me to take an Oxford University some sort of entrance exam in mathematics. A quick look at past papers showed it had absolutely no connection with the mathematics A level syllabus, in effect only students are schools who prepared for the exam could succeed.

    And it is still happening, because "outstanding" schools are busy routing their bright children into A level psychology and drama studies - and medical degrees (I think) ask for A level physics which is hardly taught in state schools.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    Here malc one to cheer you up. ;-)

    Scotland was the only area in the UK where the Conservative vote increased.”

    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2014/05/ruth-davidson-msp-how-we-held-our-euro-seat-and-grew-our-vote-in-scotland.html

    Afternoon Alan, yes and only because it gets them nothing. Will need a clean out of losers of herculean proportions before they ever recover. They need to read up on geography.

  • How long till there are calls for a Strong Man? We no longer appreciate our system of government, or feel any attachment to it. Representative democracy collapses when race hatred replaces class conflict as the principal engine of social division.

    What happens if migration conflict replaces class hatred?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,452


    If a weapon cannot be used; it isn't a weapon. If this country or its territory, God forbid, were to be attacked, and an aircraft carrier needed, I dare say unfit planes would have to be used, if available, in favour of none at all. Or perhaps we could write people a nice letter asking them not to attack us for the next decade.

    The farce of military procurement and the sorry state of our armed services is ongoing, and I am by no means absolving the previous Labour administration of culpability. But the original contention was that nothing could be done about these issues, because they are too complex. Your own suggestions indicate that this isn't true, that bad decisions have been made all along the line, and presumably that better ones can still be made.

    Your original contention was:
    "It isn't hard not to sell off all your Harriers at a knock down price to the yanks to rot in a field, so you've nothing to put on your shiny new aircraft carrier."
    As I have indicated in this thread, the Harrier GR9's were absolutely not fit for purpose on the old Invincible-class carriers (at least the ones with engines in), yet alone on the new QE class. If you'd been willing to pay to keep them flying, I'm sure the MOD (or at least the army and RAF) would have been delighted.
    I dare say unfit planes would have to be used, if available, in favour of none at all.
    This is hysterical. I look forward to you volunteering to fly a GR9 in air combat against any modern fighter type. The phrase 'turkey shoot' comes to mind. They had very useful capabilities, especially as ground-pounders, but the navy needs air defence, which a role the GR9 can most certainly not fit.

    If anything, you have it totally the wrong way around. The military has spent too much time and effort watering down capabilities until they exist on paper and nowhere else. Better to admit we do not have that particular capability and spend the money on beefing up capabilities we do have. I love the new QE class carriers, but they're a classic example. It's better done right than cheaply bodged, especially when the lives of our fighting men and women are at stake.
  • Swiss_BobSwiss_Bob Posts: 619
    Socrates said:

    Thinking of the numbers on this is staggering.

    The "1400" number in Rotherham was considered a "conservative" estimate. It's probably closer to 2000 or 2500. But let's assume Rotherham was one of the worst examples and the average town where this happened had just 700 abuse victims - half the 'conservative' Rotherham level.

    The most horrific instances of abuse involved girls being prostituted out to men across a broad area. This could mean a dozen rapes in a night, whether the men came consecutively or gang raped her. If this happened a few times a week, then it's well possible some girls got raped a thousand times in a year. On the low side, girls more marginally on the edge of this might have just been targeted about once a month by a group of guys. That's still likely to be about 50 rapes a year if four or five rapists were involved. 100 rapes per year of an average victim seems conservative.

    The youngest girls were targeted at 11 or 12. They seem to have been dropped by these gangs by the time they were 15 or 16. Given that some girls may have escaped after a shorter period of time, let's estimate the average period of abuse was probably about three years.

    We are currently aware of this model of abuse definitely happening in Barking, Birmingham, Blackburn, Blackpool, Bradford, Derby, Ipswich, Keighley, Manchester, Nelson, Oldham, Oxford, Peterborough, Preston, Rochdale, Sheffield, Skipton and Telford in addition to Rotherham itself. I've also heard anecdotal reports on here about Tower Hamlets, Worcester and Luton. But let's keep ourselves grounded and and assume it only took place in the 19 towns mentioned.

    700 victims per town x 100 rapes a year x three years' of abuse per victim x 19 towns.

    Just under four million rapes. And this in a deliberate effort to scale down the numbers.

    FOUR MILLION CHILD RAPES.

    Four million rapes neglected or covered up by the establishment for fear of upsetting community sensitivities. And that's before we get to the torture, the psychological warfare and the outright murders.

    People like Nick Palmer have said I seem to be too angry to engage with. But isn't four million child rapes the sort of thing that it's justified to get angry about? This must surely be the worst thing that has happened to our country since the Second World War.

    Who would want to 'engage' with people who effectively endorsed this filthy abuse.

    I'd need wire wool and bleach to attempt to wash the disgust off.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    MalcolmG No, the figures were on the UK as a whole and the point that Scotland is overrepresented with 9% of MPs remains
This discussion has been closed.