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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tories equal their lowest ever YouGov rating in the latest

SystemSystem Posts: 11,019
edited May 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tories equal their lowest ever YouGov rating in the latest daily poll

After last night’s different pictures from the YouGov and Survation polls the latest one from the former, just published, sees the blues drop sharply and Ukip rising 2.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    YouGov/The Sunil:

    Tory/UKIP 43%
    Labour 38%
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    Interesting that the record low was only a few weeks ago.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    Interesting others have shot up 3% in a day
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    Andy Murray out of the French open.

    Do we lay for him for Wimbledon?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Eagles, didn't he decide not to play in France due to a slight injury to help ensure he'd be better for Wimbledon?

    Clay's not his best surface.

    On the poll: who would have imagined public bickering (and potential smearing) would lead to such results.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    OT - Iran

    Officially the list of approved candidates for the Iranian Prseidential elections in June is not due out until tomorrow but reports say these are the guys passing the Guardian Council's approval to run.

    Saeed Jalili,
    Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf,
    Gholamali Haddad-Adel,
    Ali Akbar Velayati,
    Hassan Rouhani,
    Mohammad Gharazi,
    Mohsen Rezaei,
    Mohammad Reza Aref.

    If this is confirmed, two things of note for the casual Western watcher. 1. No Rafsanjani, a kind of favourite of some in the West, who did indicate that he wanted to run and 2. no sign of Ahmadeni..yeah.... his favoured man, Rahim-Mashai, passing the Guardian Council either.

    Sooooooooooo, when are Ladbrokes planning a market on this?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
  • Options
    Tories bottom out in poll.

    Ah, well.

    It all adds to the gaiety of the nation.
  • Options
    GloucesterOldSpotGloucesterOldSpot Posts: 50
    edited May 2013
    FPT

    Can the good news get any better?

    Headline inflation (CPI) falls from 2.8% in March to 2.4% in April. Main driver is lower fuel and transport costs (-0.29%) but most welcome will be fall in food prices (-0.1%) which have consistently been rising at higher (4.0% +) than headline rates over the past two years.

    Those arguing (probably correctly) that falling oil prices and a high sterling value in March will not persist as an inflation suppressant should not despair. Factory gate inflation also fell from 1.9% to 1.1% on a monthly basis.

    The new CPIH Index, which is designed to measure home owner inflation, fell too, from 2.6% to 2.2%, against the fearmongering of the housing bubble Cassandras.

    All much better news than expected. Consensus was for the rate of CPI increase to fall to 2.7% (Actual 2.4%) and for Factory Gate Inflation to 1.6% (1.1%).

    All this explains the spring in Sir Merv's step and the catlike smile crossing his lips as he nears the end of his relationship with the Old Lady of Threadneedle Street.

    Economic metrics which better consensus forecasts usually indicate rapidly improving economic performance. If Sir Merv. is looking smug, the next Ballentaylor and Ballylemon baronet is purring with satisfaction. He plans to celebrate with ceilidh in No 11 tonight: couples of all sexes invited.

    Is there any area of the economy Boy George isn't getting right?

    Inflation is still above target. Prices are still rising faster than earnings. People have already been squeezed for far too long. Trying to make failure look like a success just makes Tories look like they are treating the electorate with contempt.
    Rotting kippers on Margate Sands.

    You need fresh fish, Mr. Jones.

    I recommend a good Dover Soul served au blue avec une sauce elphiquois.

    Delicious.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    The trend is your friend

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2s

    The two pollsters that have so far reported this week have the Tories on record lows.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,333
    Back to an 11% lead, eh? As Gloucester OldSpot might say, can the good news get any better?
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Triumph for the fops yet again.

    Who could have foreseen banging on about Europe would be a master strategy of unparallelled genius. ;)
  • Options
    tim said:

    Time to deploy the Sam Cam stories.

    "David Cameron's nice car was the key to Samantha's heart"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10071979/David-Camerons-nice-car-was-the-key-to-Samanthas-heart-PM-claims.html


    And the Tory party went for him because he took his tie off and told them he could win elections.

    When you are born great you have no need for an electorate to thrust greatness upon you, tim.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Palmer, worth recalling the Romans were probably delighted when they saw the weak convex centre Hannibal had deployed at Cannae.
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    Y0kel said:

    OT - Iran

    Officially the list of approved candidates for the Iranian Prseidential elections in June is not due out until tomorrow but reports say these are the guys passing the Guardian Council's approval to run.

    Saeed Jalili,
    Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf,
    Gholamali Haddad-Adel,
    Ali Akbar Velayati,
    Hassan Rouhani,
    Mohammad Gharazi,
    Mohsen Rezaei,
    Mohammad Reza Aref.

    If this is confirmed, two things of note for the casual Western watcher. 1. No Rafsanjani, a kind of favourite of some in the West, who did indicate that he wanted to run and 2. no sign of Ahmadeni..yeah.... his favoured man, Rahim-Mashai, passing the Guardian Council either.

    Sooooooooooo, when are Ladbrokes planning a market on this?

    Can you let us know which of the candidates support same sex marriage, Y0kel?



  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401

    Y0kel said:

    OT - Iran

    Officially the list of approved candidates for the Iranian Prseidential elections in June is not due out until tomorrow but reports say these are the guys passing the Guardian Council's approval to run.

    Saeed Jalili,
    Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf,
    Gholamali Haddad-Adel,
    Ali Akbar Velayati,
    Hassan Rouhani,
    Mohammad Gharazi,
    Mohsen Rezaei,
    Mohammad Reza Aref.

    If this is confirmed, two things of note for the casual Western watcher. 1. No Rafsanjani, a kind of favourite of some in the West, who did indicate that he wanted to run and 2. no sign of Ahmadeni..yeah.... his favoured man, Rahim-Mashai, passing the Guardian Council either.

    Sooooooooooo, when are Ladbrokes planning a market on this?

    Can you let us know which of the candidates support same sex marriage, Y0kel?



    There are no gays in Iran

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483746/We-dont-gays-Iran-Iranian-president-tells-Ivy-League-audience.html
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @Sean_T

    Iraq has got plenty of coverage over the years. When was the last time you heard about people dying in the Congo?
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    I don't think the Conservatives being 'split' has anything to do with it. The Chairman of the Conservative Party has just insulted the entire membership.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    An interesting account of today's Senate hearing for those who were discussing Apple's tax arrangements this morning:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0521/451732-apple-ireland-cook/
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited May 2013
    What will be interesting is where Labour's extra support goes when PM Miliband proves hugely unpopular. I can't see it going back to the Tories, so I imagine it'll be split between the Lib Dems and UKIP.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983


    There are no gays in Iran

    Willie McCrea would love it.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    Andy Murray withdrawal story

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/22540156
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    Neil said:


    There are no gays in Iran

    Willie McCrea would love it.
    I'm gutted I missed seeing the Ulster contribution to the gay marriage debate.

    Sounded like a real humdinger.

    A real pity that Ian Paisley is no longer an MP.
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Andy Murray out of the French open.

    Do we lay for him for Wimbledon?

    Wait a bit then back him, and wait for the patriotic money to come in for Wimbledon to lay it off.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,922
    There must be plenty of left leaning LD voters who are naused over their boys being in govt w the Cons that will vote for them again if it looks like Lab being biggest party w NOM, no?
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:

    There must be plenty of left leaning LD voters who are naused over their boys being in govt w the Cons that will vote for them again if it looks like Lab being biggest party w NOM, no?

    The question is where. A lot more Lib Dem seats are Conservative battles than Labour battles, whether voters in those seats stay LD or go Labour is the key for the LDs.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983



    A real pity that Ian Paisley is no longer an MP.

    Ian Paisley Jnr did intervene.

    Actually the DUP and Sylvia Harman were pretty restrained as were most of the Tory opponents too (I dont think I noticed any Labour or Lib Dem opponents stick their heads above the parapet in the debate). Gerald Howarth's was probably the worst speech and that wasnt that bad. You really dont get a good class of homophobic comment in the Commons these days. I kinda miss the opportunity to be outraged. Hopefully Tebbit and O'Cathain wont let us down in the Lords.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited May 2013
    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    @Sean_T

    Iraq has got plenty of coverage over the years. When was the last time you heard about people dying in the Congo?

    Oh, I agree: I just chose Iraq because a new civil war is kicking off, and much of the violence is OUR FAULT, since we decided to poke our dildo of liberty in the hornets nest.

    No doubt around the world there are ongoing horrors that are equal, or worse.

    My point was that our apparent obsession, especially via BBC news, with America, has become ridiculous, and borderline decadent. I don't understand it. Is it just because you can get better Youtube footage from the States of *exciting* tornadoes? Is it some kind of mass media hypnosis?

    Either way this exceptional bias towards comparatively trivial American stories entirely undermines the BBC's claim to some higher purpose. If they want to be judged by a higher standard, let the BBC go to Africa or Asia and find the real nasty news that others won't report, and then let them run these stories as headlines. That's their job.
    I don't think it's obsession with America. I think it's anywhere in the West. The New Zealand earthquake got huge coverage also. They just think people in developed countries are worth more than people in developing ones.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    Neil said:



    A real pity that Ian Paisley is no longer an MP.

    Ian Paisley Jnr did intervene.

    Actually the DUP and Sylvia Harman were pretty restrained as were most of the Tory opponents too (I dont think I noticed any Labour or Lib Dem opponents stick their heads above the parapet in the debate). Gerald Howarth's was probably the worst speech and that wasnt that bad. You really dont get a good class of homophobic comment in the Commons these days. I kinda miss the opportunity to be outraged. Hopefully Tebbit and O'Cathain wont let us down in the Lords.
    Sylvia Hermon, Neil!

    Unless it's some long-lost Ulster cousin of Harriet?

    :)
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    Neil said:



    A real pity that Ian Paisley is no longer an MP

    Ian Paisley Jnr did intervene.

    Actually the DUP and Sylvia Harman were pretty restrained as were most of the Tory opponents too (I dont think I noticed any Labour or Lib Dem opponents stick their heads above the parapet in the debate). Gerald Howarth's was probably the worst speech and that wasnt that bad. You really dont get a good class of homophobic comment in the Commons these days. I kinda miss the opportunity to be outraged. Hopefully Tebbit and O'Cathain wont let us down in the Lords.
    Gerald's speech will long be remembered, his aggressive homosexuals will be his unique contribution to the English language.

    A shame Lady Young is no longer around, her contribution would have been fun
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited May 2013
    @Sean_T

    And I entirely agree that the whole point of public broadcasting should be covering important stuff commercial stations wouldn't go near. Instead they spunk it crap like the Voice and Eastenders to chase ratings. It's outrageous really.

    What I'd love is for there to be an independent panel handing out money in a competitive manner for public broadcasting on a program by program basis, after pitches from the broadcasting channel. That way every show that was funded by the television tax would have to fully demonstrate its worth on a clear basis.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @Sunil

    Of course, she's Ulster's equivalent of Harriet Harman, being only very against gay rights is as liberal as it gets.

    @TSE

    I'm sure Baroness Young is contributing to the debate by turning repeatedly in her grave.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Does "aggressive homosexuals" include US Senators with wide stances in public toilets?
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Socrates said:

    The New Zealand earthquake got huge coverage also.


    A number of people from the UK died in the New Zealand earthquake so it seems fair enough to have had some reporting of it.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    @Neil

    Ulster factoid of the day - Lady Sylvia's maiden name is Paisley!
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    Neil said:

    @Sunil

    Of course, she's Ulster's equivalent of Harriet Harman, being only very against gay rights is as liberal as it gets.

    @TSE

    I'm sure Baroness Young is contributing to the debate by turning repeatedly in her grave.

    Look at this way, gay rights is uniting the Northern Irish.

    As Alanbrooke pointed out to me, The Catholic Church is praising the DUP for their stance on gays.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    Frankly given the shambles of the behaviour of the Conservative Party over the past few days, it's remarkable that more than a quarter of respondents say they'll vote Tory, although I suppose the alternatives are hardly more attractive.

    As so often, the beacon of sense in the whole debate is Lord Ashcroft:

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2013/05/from-lordashcroft-enough-time-to-behave-like-the-governing-party-we-all-want-to-be.html

    Why is he not running Conservative Party strategy?
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983


    Look at this way, gay rights is uniting the Northern Irish.

    Not really - in the recent Stormont vote on gay marriage there was a noticeable Nationalist V Unionist divide (with some exceptions).
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    Neil said:


    Look at this way, gay rights is uniting the Northern Irish.

    Not really - in the recent Stormont vote on gay marriage there was a noticeable Nationalist V Unionist divide (with some exceptions).
    Oh
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    " Why is he not running Conservative Party strategy? "

    Because doing so is the hobby of our 'near perfect' chancellor.

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,333
    edited May 2013
    SeanT said:

    Back to an 11% lead, eh? As Gloucester OldSpot might say, can the good news get any better?

    But your support is ALSO falling. Remember the times when you were consistently above 40%, often well above?

    Seems a while ago now.

    It is a curious phenomenon. You ARE probably going to win, with a plurality, or a small majority, but there certainly isn't any enthusiasm for Miliband. This is not surprising, as he is a ridiculous little wetwipe of a man, and he will be as unpopular as Hollande is now, within a year of taking office.
    I agree we're down as well, though by less than the Tories. There are three factors here. First Labour's policy "restraint", though no doubt strategically sensible, is pretty unexciting. Second UKIP is pinching the you-all-suck-let's-try-someone-else vote from all parties, in addition to the specific Daily Mail types from the Tories. Third, the EU/gay marriage row damages the Tories but it doesn't really help either Labour or the LibDems, since neither issue is really one that thrills our supporters and gets them keen to vote. The more the media give the impression that those are today's key issues, the more Lab/Lib supporters shrug and think who cares.

    But the underlying position remains healthy enough; Gordon's voters plus defecting LibDems will see us home. I think people will then be pleasantly surprised by Miliband, but we'll see.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413

    " Why is he not running Conservative Party strategy? "

    Because doing so is the hobby of our 'near perfect' chancellor.

    Do they disagree in any material respect?

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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413

    I think people will then be pleasantly surprised by Miliband, but we'll see.

    One to file in the archives.

    I can't quite figure out whether Labour supporters are gritting their teeth and grimly hoping the prospect of being in government under the leadership of the two Eds won't be as bad as any sensible person would expect (as they did, famously, in the case of Gordon Brown), or whether they really don't have any idea what is coming. I imagine it's the former, mainly.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    tim said:

    tim said:

    Time to deploy the Sam Cam stories.

    "David Cameron's nice car was the key to Samantha's heart"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10071979/David-Camerons-nice-car-was-the-key-to-Samanthas-heart-PM-claims.html


    And the Tory party went for him because he took his tie off and told them he could win elections.

    When you are born great you have no need for an electorate to thrust greatness upon you, tim.


    Sam's summer reading.

    Ryanair.com
    Easyjet.com

    And if ICM turns bad

    Galabingo.co.uk
    Surely the obvious place for a Cameron summer holiday would be Cleethorpes ?

    Lots of marginal constituency proles to have a photstunt with and its just down the road from SamCam's old house. Dave could call in there to have a round of golf with Avery.

    If Osborne wants to tag along he could have a ride on the donkeys and paddle in the mud.

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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413

    Surely the obvious place for a Cameron summer holiday would be Cleethorpes ?

    Good idea, as long as they could find an interpreter.
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    I don't understand the data:

    Con -4; Lab -1; UKIP +2; LibDem nc

    Does this mean Others are +3?
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949

    I don't understand the data:

    Con -4; Lab -1; UKIP +2; LibDem nc

    Does this mean Others are +3?

    Yes.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203

    SeanT said:

    Back to an 11% lead, eh? As Gloucester OldSpot might say, can the good news get any better?

    But your support is ALSO falling. Remember the times when you were consistently above 40%, often well above?

    Seems a while ago now.

    It is a curious phenomenon. You ARE probably going to win, with a plurality, or a small majority, but there certainly isn't any enthusiasm for Miliband. This is not surprising, as he is a ridiculous little wetwipe of a man, and he will be as unpopular as Hollande is now, within a year of taking office.
    I agree we're down as well, though by less than the Tories. There are three factors here. First Labour's policy "restraint", though no doubt strategically sensible, is pretty unexciting. Second UKIP is pinching the you-all-suck-let's-try-someone-else vote from all parties, in addition to the specific Daily Mail types from the Tories. Third, the EU/gay marriage row damages the Tories but it doesn't really help either Labour or the LibDems, since neither issue is really one that thrills our supporters and gets them keen to vote. The more the media give the impression that those are today's key issues, the more Lab/Lib supporters shrug and think who cares.

    But the underlying position remains healthy enough; Gordon's voters plus defecting LibDems will see us home. I think people will then be pleasantly surprised by Miliband, but we'll see.
    Gordon's voters plus defecting LibDems, eh? No One Nation there, I see. If you're not in those 2 categories, you can get stuffed. Is that the Labour strategy?

    What is it with politicians and insulting the voters these days?
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076

    " Why is he not running Conservative Party strategy? "

    Because doing so is the hobby of our 'near perfect' chancellor.

    Do they disagree in any material respect?

    IIRC Ashcroft published a very critical report on ConHome into the Conservative 2010 election strategy.

    I can't imagine he's impressed by Osborne's more recent strategic disasters either.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413


    IIRC Ashcroft published a very critical report on ConHome into the Conservative 2010 election strategy

    I think that's right. However, wasn't it more the Steve Hilton aspects of the campaign which he laid into?
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203
    @SeanT: "What could Ed Miliband POSSIBLY do that is *surprising*? "

    He will probably introduce a 60p tax rate on everyone over £50,000 or some such. Or a mansion tax on houses worth £500K or more. Or an annual wealth tax on everything you own. Or a super-VAT rate on luxury goods. Or a reduction in the inheritance tax threshold. Or possibly all of them at once.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076

    Surely the obvious place for a Cameron summer holiday would be Cleethorpes ?

    Good idea, as long as they could find an interpreter.
    Charles says he has Lincolnshire connections.

    Assuming he has his geography right this time.

    If not the GloucesterOldSpot is the man/pig, a bit of grunting should suffice in a Lincolnshire seaside town.

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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203
    tim said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Back to an 11% lead, eh? As Gloucester OldSpot might say, can the good news get any better?

    But your support is ALSO falling. Remember the times when you were consistently above 40%, often well above?

    Seems a while ago now.

    It is a curious phenomenon. You ARE probably going to win, with a plurality, or a small majority, but there certainly isn't any enthusiasm for Miliband. This is not surprising, as he is a ridiculous little wetwipe of a man, and he will be as unpopular as Hollande is now, within a year of taking office.
    I agree we're down as well, though by less than the Tories. There are three factors here. First Labour's policy "restraint", though no doubt strategically sensible, is pretty unexciting. Second UKIP is pinching the you-all-suck-let's-try-someone-else vote from all parties, in addition to the specific Daily Mail types from the Tories. Third, the EU/gay marriage row damages the Tories but it doesn't really help either Labour or the LibDems, since neither issue is really one that thrills our supporters and gets them keen to vote. The more the media give the impression that those are today's key issues, the more Lab/Lib supporters shrug and think who cares.

    But the underlying position remains healthy enough; Gordon's voters plus defecting LibDems will see us home. I think people will then be pleasantly surprised by Miliband, but we'll see.
    lol Surprised in what way? What could Ed Miliband POSSIBLY do that is *surprising*? Levitate?

    He will, AT BEST, be governing a sluggish economy, facing viciously competitive globalising forces, and presiding over a shrunken state budget - limiting his ability to dish out benefits, which is Labour's usual path to popularity.

    Which part of that do you disagree with? None, I hope, as it is all virtually certain.

    I am right. Miliband will be disliked by everyone within a month. And he has no personal, Boris-esque, Blairite charm to help him dance his way out of political trouble. He is Hollande. He just IS.

    Weirdly enough, people were saying the same about Hollande as you are now saying about Ed Miliband. "Wait til he gets into power, then he'll show you".

    Ooops.
    Labour usually cut benefit spending and the Tories put it up, certainly true of Thatcher Major and Cameron

    Was benefit spending higher in 2010 than it was in 1997? Or lower? Genuine question this.

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    Quincel said:

    I don't understand the data:

    Con -4; Lab -1; UKIP +2; LibDem nc

    Does this mean Others are +3?

    Yes.
    So, Others have moved from 6% of the national vote, to 9% of the national vote. A 50 per cent increase in their vote!? Hmmm ...
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949

    So, Others have moved from 6% of the national vote, to 9% of the national vote. A 50 per cent increase in their vote!? Hmmm ...

    It's only a 3% shift, it's probably mostly or entirely MOE movements, much as the 1% move in Labour support. The Greens did hit 6% in a recent Ipsos Mori poll, so they might be driving it a bit. I doubt it is significant, but I don't see why it's suspect.

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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @Sean_T

    Seeing there's a non-trivial chance the UK will leave the EU in the next decade, one presumes that it doesn't matter much for Fiat.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Socrates said:

    @Sean_T

    And I entirely agree that the whole point of public broadcasting should be covering important stuff commercial stations wouldn't go near. Instead they spunk it crap like the Voice and Eastenders to chase ratings. It's outrageous really.

    What I'd love is for there to be an independent panel handing out money in a competitive manner for public broadcasting on a program by program basis, after pitches from the broadcasting channel. That way every show that was funded by the television tax would have to fully demonstrate its worth on a clear basis.

    I completely agree: the BBC should be a commissioning agency that confines itself to ensuring that programming that would not otherwise be commercially viable gets made.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203
    tim said:

    Cyclefree said:

    @SeanT: "What could Ed Miliband POSSIBLY do that is *surprising*? "

    He will probably introduce a 60p tax rate on everyone over £50,000 or some such. Or a mansion tax on houses worth £500K or more. Or an annual wealth tax on everything you own. Or a super-VAT rate on luxury goods. Or a reduction in the inheritance tax threshold. Or possibly all of them at once.

    The first wont happen.
    Extra council tax bands will probably happen whoever wins
    The third wont happen
    The fourth is unlikely

    Huge cuts in benefit spending will happen, particularly housing benefit.
    I'll have a bet with you on each of those assertions if you want
    Tim: thanks for the offer. I'm a completely novice better (other than for horses) so I think I'd better decline.

    But let's take this conversation up again when/if Labour are back in power.

    (Incidentally, my second was referring to a specific mansion tax in addition to new council tax bands which I agree with you are likely to happen. I also think that the IHT threshold will be lowered and some of the reliefs tightened up or abolished.)
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @rcs1000

    Seeing that the BBC already runs a TV channel and makes its own programs with a good brand, it makes sense they should still do that. They could bid for their programs to get the funds. The commissioning panel should be newly established, and be politically balanced.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203
    tim said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tim said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Back to an 11% lead, eh? As Gloucester OldSpot might say, can the good news get any better?

    But your support is ALSO falling. Remember the times when you were consistently above 40%, often well above?

    Seems a while ago now.

    It is a curious phenomenon. You ARE probably going to win, with a plurality, or a small majority, but there certainly isn't any enthusiasm for Miliband. This is not surprising, as he is a ridiculous little wetwipe of a man, and he will be as unpopular as Hollande is now, within a year of taking office.
    I agree we're down as well, though by less than the Tories. There are three factors here. First Labour's policy "restraint", though no doubt strategically sensible, is pretty unexciting. Second UKIP is pinching the you-all-suck-let's-try-someone-else vote from all parties, in addition to the specific Daily Mail types from the Tories. Third, the EU/gay marriage row damages the Tories but it doesn't really help either Labour or the LibDems, since neither issue is really one that thrills our supporters and gets them keen to vote. The more the media give the impression that those are today's key issues, the more Lab/Lib supporters shrug and think who cares.

    But the underlying position remains healthy enough; Gordon's voters plus defecting LibDems will see us home. I think people will then be pleasantly surprised by Miliband, but we'll see.
    lol Surprised in what way? What could Ed Miliband POSSIBLY do that is *surprising*? Levitate?

    He will, AT BEST, be governing a sluggish economy, facing viciously competitive globalising forces, and presiding over a shrunken state budget - limiting his ability to dish out benefits, which is Labour's usual path to popularity.

    Which part of that do you disagree with? None, I hope, as it is all virtually certain.

    I am right. Miliband will be disliked by everyone within a month. And he has no personal, Boris-esque, Blairite charm to help him dance his way out of political trouble. He is Hollande. He just IS.

    Weirdly enough, people were saying the same about Hollande as you are now saying about Ed Miliband. "Wait til he gets into power, then he'll show you".

    Ooops.
    Labour usually cut benefit spending and the Tories put it up, certainly true of Thatcher Major and Cameron

    Was benefit spending higher in 2010 than it was in 1997? Or lower? Genuine question this.

    http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/expenditure_tables_Budget_2013.xls

    http://www.turn2us.org.uk/pdf/Mythbusting.pdf
    Thanks Tim. Will look at in detail tomorrow. Night all.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited May 2013
    On another matter, 59% of Americans now disapprove of the Republican Party:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/poll-gop-favorability-rating-obama-irs-tea-party-scandals-2013-5

    So the next GOP presidential candidate will have to get 10% of Americans who dislike the GOP, and probably approve of Hilary Clinton, to vote for them, in a period when the GOP base won't allow anyone to deviate from GOP orthodoxy.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    SeanT said:

    Back to an 11% lead, eh? As Gloucester OldSpot might say, can the good news get any better?

    But your support is ALSO falling. Remember the times when you were consistently above 40%, often well above?

    Seems a while ago now.

    It is a curious phenomenon. You ARE probably going to win, with a plurality, or a small majority, but there certainly isn't any enthusiasm for Miliband. This is not surprising, as he is a ridiculous little wetwipe of a man, and he will be as unpopular as Hollande is now, within a year of taking office.
    I agree we're down as well, though by less than the Tories. There are three factors here. First Labour's policy "restraint", though no doubt strategically sensible, is pretty unexciting. Second UKIP is pinching the you-all-suck-let's-try-someone-else vote from all parties, in addition to the specific Daily Mail types from the Tories. Third, the EU/gay marriage row damages the Tories but it doesn't really help either Labour or the LibDems, since neither issue is really one that thrills our supporters and gets them keen to vote. The more the media give the impression that those are today's key issues, the more Lab/Lib supporters shrug and think who cares.

    But the underlying position remains healthy enough; Gordon's voters plus defecting LibDems will see us home. I think people will then be pleasantly surprised by Miliband, but we'll see.
    If he sacked Ed Balls, and put someone sound on finance in the Shadow Chancellor post, he would sweep the board. Finding someone good with money in the current party would be tricky, but perhaps Burnham would be OK.

    On other news for the sartorially challenged, I see that redmolotov have a "swivel eyed loons" shirt out. I am mighty tempted, and can vouch for the quality of their shirts, having let my inner Sheldon loose in their online store previously.

    http://www.redmolotov.com/catalogue/tshirts/all/attack-of-the-swivel-eyed-loons-tshirt.html
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    isamisam Posts: 40,922
    edited May 2013
    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    @SeanT: "What could Ed Miliband POSSIBLY do that is *surprising*? "

    He will probably introduce a 60p tax rate on everyone over £50,000 or some such. Or a mansion tax on houses worth £500K or more. Or an annual wealth tax on everything you own. Or a super-VAT rate on luxury goods. Or a reduction in the inheritance tax threshold. Or possibly all of them at once.

    1. He won't do any of those

    2. Because Hollande did, and it was a political and economic disaster

    3. If he did, it would be amusing to watch him backtrack, very very painfully; like Hollande

    4. I'm starting to think UKIP could win more than 10% at the GE, which changes everything for everyone

    Ukip can be backed at 13/8 to get between 10-20% w Ladbrokes must be a decent bet

    If you did fancy that it would prob be best to back £2@7/2 10-15 and £1@5s 15-20, so you're on at 2/1 10-15% and EVS 15-20%
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    Quincel said:

    So, Others have moved from 6% of the national vote, to 9% of the national vote. A 50 per cent increase in their vote!? Hmmm ...

    It's only a 3% shift, it's probably mostly or entirely MOE movements, much as the 1% move in Labour support. The Greens did hit 6% in a recent Ipsos Mori poll, so they might be driving it a bit. I doubt it is significant, but I don't see why it's suspect.

    Within a specific survey, should not the sum of MOE movements across all the parties be zero. If you are arguing that we should largely discount the +3 for Others, then it follows that we should largely discount -3 of the -5 for the Tories and Labour. I usually prefer to think of the figures as best estimates.
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    FPT

    @GloucesterOldSpot said:

    » show previous quotes
    Rotting kippers on Margate Sands.

    You need fresh fish.

    I recommend a good Dover Soul served au blue avec une sauce elphiquois.

    Delicious.


    Aah you mention El Phicko. Yes I read his absurd piece of hubris about the White Cliffs still being blue and all the fallacious reasons why Dover was safe. Of course what he failed to point out was that Labour gained two of the four wards outright and that UKIP didn't stand a candidate in Dover North and if they had and that candidate had done as well as the other UKIP candidates in the Dover area then Dover would probably have been highlighted as a three way marginal with 'El Phicko' being the Dover 'Soul' being served up on a platter..

    Still with both Labour and UKIP targetting Dover there's as much chance of getting fresh Kippers there as Dover Sole.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203
    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    @SeanT: "What could Ed Miliband POSSIBLY do that is *surprising*? "

    He will probably introduce a 60p tax rate on everyone over £50,000 or some such. Or a mansion tax on houses worth £500K or more. Or an annual wealth tax on everything you own. Or a super-VAT rate on luxury goods. Or a reduction in the inheritance tax threshold. Or possibly all of them at once.

    1. He won't do any of those

    2. Because Hollande did, and it was a political and economic disaster

    3. If he did, it would be amusing to watch him backtrack, very very painfully; like Hollande

    4. I'm starting to think UKIP could win more than 10% at the GE, which changes everything for everyone


    Hollande has not backtracked on his 75% tax rate, as far as I'm aware.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,401
    Brendan Rodgers is now the sixth longest serving manager in the Premier League.

    The scary stat, he was only appointed 355 days ago
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Socrates said:

    @Sean_T

    Seeing there's a non-trivial chance the UK will leave the EU in the next decade, one presumes that it doesn't matter much for Fiat.

    Isn't it Fiat Industrial, rather than the much larger Fiat Automotive? And isn't this the consequence of the CNH merger? Also, won't the entity technically be Dutch, but using an offshore holding company structure - a la Apple - based in the UK?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    @SeanT: "What could Ed Miliband POSSIBLY do that is *surprising*? "

    He will probably introduce a 60p tax rate on everyone over £50,000 or some such. Or a mansion tax on houses worth £500K or more. Or an annual wealth tax on everything you own. Or a super-VAT rate on luxury goods. Or a reduction in the inheritance tax threshold. Or possibly all of them at once.

    1. He won't do any of those

    2. Because Hollande did, and it was a political and economic disaster

    3. If he did, it would be amusing to watch him backtrack, very very painfully; like Hollande

    4. I'm starting to think UKIP could win more than 10% at the GE, which changes everything for everyone

    Ukip can be backed at 13/8 to get between 10-20% w Ladbrokes must be a decent bet

    If you did fancy that it would prob be best to back £2@7/2 10-15 and £1@5s 15-20, so you're on at 2/1 10-15% and EVS 15-20%
    I would be very surprised if UKIP was sub 10% at the election, and would be equally surprised if they were above 20%. So 13/8 sounds like excellent value.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @tim

    This might make you feel a bit better for voting Green in 2009 and letting the BNP in*

    https://twitter.com/rustyrockets/status/336842605755236352/photo/1

    * of course voting Green wasnt a bad strategy for keeping the BNP out, only UKIP came closer to stopping them
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    rcs1000 said:


    I would be very surprised if UKIP was sub 10% at the election

    They slumped from 16% in 2009 (ok, in a PR election in which they stood everywhere) to 3% in 2010 (in a FPTP one where they didnt stand everywhere). I can definitely imagine them falling below 10% in 2015. In fact I have money on it ;)
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Neil said:

    rcs1000 said:


    I would be very surprised if UKIP was sub 10% at the election

    They slumped from 16% in 2009 (ok, in a PR election in which they stood everywhere) to 3% in 2010 (in a FPTP one where they didnt stand everywhere). I can definitely imagine them falling below 10% in 2015. In fact I have money on it ;)
    50 quid at 3-2 says they are above 10%
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    isamisam Posts: 40,922
    Neil said:

    rcs1000 said:


    I would be very surprised if UKIP was sub 10% at the election

    They slumped from 16% in 2009 (ok, in a PR election in which they stood everywhere) to 3% in 2010 (in a FPTP one where they didnt stand everywhere). I can definitely imagine them falling below 10% in 2015. In fact I have money on it ;)

    Haha well we are on at the current prices give or take

    Rcs if you fancied the 13/8 have £22@7/2 and £16@5s sorry if this is patronising
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    @Sean_T

    Seeing there's a non-trivial chance the UK will leave the EU in the next decade, one presumes that it doesn't matter much for Fiat.

    Isn't it Fiat Industrial, rather than the much larger Fiat Automotive? And isn't this the consequence of the CNH merger? Also, won't the entity technically be Dutch, but using an offshore holding company structure - a la Apple - based in the UK?
    Are you trying to use the Socratic method on ME?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    Cyclefree - He has levied it on payroll rather than income
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    rcs1000 said:


    50 quid at 3-2 says they are above 10%

    Why not - if I win I can donate it to the site running costs as I've still not managed to get to the bank to set up a regular direct debit like I meant to after the move to vanilla. (Dont anyone talk to me about internet banking, I intend to figure out how to do that next year.)
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    Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    edited May 2013
    If you want to break up the BBC then there's a very simple (indirect) route: break up the Sky monopoly in pay TV, force them to spin-off their channels and enforce retransmission and carriage fees based on popularity (roughly based on how cable providers work in the US).

    The end result would be a freer market with private channels creating much more original programming (especially scripted), which would eventually make the BBC obsolete. A viable new funding model having been established, you could privatise parts of the BBC that would be self-sufficient (let's say BBC1 and BBC3, representing just under half of current BBC spending) and leave a much smaller, leaner and cheaper public service broadcaster under state control.
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    Y0kel said:

    OT - Iran

    Officially the list of approved candidates for the Iranian Prseidential elections in June is not due out until tomorrow but reports say these are the guys passing the Guardian Council's approval to run.

    Saeed Jalili,
    Mohammad Bagher Ghalibaf,
    Gholamali Haddad-Adel,
    Ali Akbar Velayati,
    Hassan Rouhani,
    Mohammad Gharazi,
    Mohsen Rezaei,
    Mohammad Reza Aref.

    If this is confirmed, two things of note for the casual Western watcher. 1. No Rafsanjani, a kind of favourite of some in the West, who did indicate that he wanted to run and 2. no sign of Ahmadeni..yeah.... his favoured man, Rahim-Mashai, passing the Guardian Council either.

    Sooooooooooo, when are Ladbrokes planning a market on this?

    Can you let us know which of the candidates support same sex marriage, Y0kel?



    Haddad-Adel ..because he had a dad but now has two mums....
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    Neil said:
    Did you hear about the psephologist from Warsaw who moved to Haiti?

    He became a Voodoo Pole!
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,333
    Cyclefree said:



    Gordon's voters plus defecting LibDems, eh? No One Nation there, I see. If you're not in those 2 categories, you can get stuffed. Is that the Labour strategy?

    What is it with politicians and insulting the voters these days?

    No - that's an odd interpretation! I'm not talking about who we'll try to appeal to, just about the reason I don't feel we're likely to lose.

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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    here's a possibility...

    EdM refuses to take part in the 2015 TV debate unless UKIP are included (death for the Tories if they are)

    The Tories naturally refuse, so there's no debate, and the dork who's leading the Labour party gets to dodge the laser of the public spotlight.

    Seems a logical strategy for Labour...
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @RodCrosby

    Under that situation, the broadcasters would rather do it with Nigel and Ed and no David than not at all.
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    redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    rcs1000 said:

    Neil said:

    rcs1000 said:


    I would be very surprised if UKIP was sub 10% at the election

    They slumped from 16% in 2009 (ok, in a PR election in which they stood everywhere) to 3% in 2010 (in a FPTP one where they didnt stand everywhere). I can definitely imagine them falling below 10% in 2015. In fact I have money on it ;)
    50 quid at 3-2 says they are above 10%
    Note; UKIP need to be above 11% in England to make up for lower figures in Scotland and Wales and therefore get an average of over 10%.

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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    Socrates said:

    @RodCrosby

    Under that situation, the broadcasters would rather do it with Nigel and Ed and no David than not at all.

    That works for Labour, too. Clegg shows up to represent the government and Dave gets an unanswered pile-on and somebody following him around in a chicken costume for the rest of the campaign.
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    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Imagine how much fun it would be if, just for this week only, Geoffrey Dickens, Nicholas Fairbairn and Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman were still MPs. The possibility that they might explode with paroxysms of apoplexy in the middle of the debate would be a sight to behold.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    This latest shift is entirely "loon"-driven. Over the past couple of days, the government's net approval rating among Conservative voters from 2010 has gone from +19% to +3% , and the proportion saying they'll vote UKIP has gone from 20% to 27%. I'd like to think they could be won back, but I'm sure the Tory leadership will think of a way to alienate them. I'm now convinced that Cameron is a long-term UKIP agent, working to boost the party at the expense of the Conservatives.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    Tim, a UKIP friend was telling me yesterday that they're a little worried now that Cameron will be forced out as Leader.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    For the benefit of TSE and Sunil, a quick concert review. I saw Depeche Mode in Budapest last night. They were, as always, excellent and were on stage for about 2 hours. A lot of the new album got an airing, but so did Just Can't Get Enough (!), Never Let Me Down Again, A Question Of Time and Black Celebration, showing that they are comfortable with their past as well as their present. One unexpected bonus for my other half and me was to see one section on the screen behind them that we had walked past being filmed in Budapest a couple of weeks ago, not realising what was going on.

    I'm looking forward to seeing them next week at the 02 to see how the show works indoors.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,977

    " Why is he not running Conservative Party strategy? "

    Look at where he was educated!
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,333
    The Greens are also benefiting from the chaos and disillusion - up to 4% in the latest poll, though this is concentrated among the 18-24 group where they get 13%. They are gaining almost entriely from the LibDems (9% of 2010 LDs, 1% from the others), and are presumably taking over the role of left-wing non-establishment opposition. They might do quite well in the Euros but their real chance would come with a Lab-:Lib coalition.

    As a matter of interest, would Sean Fear like to comment on why he's not switched to UKIP himself? It seems a more natural match than the Cameron Tories, and it'd be interesting to hear the viewpoint of right-wing loyalists.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    @RodCrosby

    Under that situation, the broadcasters would rather do it with Nigel and Ed and no David than not at all.

    That works for Labour, too. Clegg shows up to represent the government and Dave gets an unanswered pile-on and somebody following him around in a chicken costume for the rest of the campaign.
    I find it amazing the number of Tory supporters on here that don't seem to realise the TV political editors, who regularly tussle with spin doctors they hate from No 10, would jump at the chance to be part of a major "Prime Minister chickens out" story. They seem to think Cameron can call the shots on this. It's the same entitled mindset that has caused their problems with UKIP since the beginning.
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    My inner anarchist is having the mad lolz at the current cluster-fuc£ in the Tory party.
    Just don't see anybody there who would have the nuts to stand up and make a challenge for the leadership, so I guess Dave stays for a bit longer.
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    IcarusIcarus Posts: 898
    Very sensible conclusion from Stephen Tall on Liberal Democrat Voice:

    "The easiest thing to write about the next election is that “it’s completely unpredictable”. That’s only half-true, though. For sure, we don’t know if the Ukip-mania will last for another two years; and if it does quite how that will play out in relation to the Tory/Labour/Lib Dem votes. That is unpredictable. But we can be sure that Ukip won’t storm the House of Commons. The Ukip phenomenon is interesting in all sorts of ways. But as for the next House of Commons, Plaid Cymru is more significant than Ukip will be.
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    Something very grim is going on inside the Tory party right now. I think Dave's whole strategy was based on an assumption that there was nowhere else for voters of the right to go - and so he has been trawling in the metrosexual middle with Int'l Aid, windfarms, gay marriage, etc. But...and this is a big but...he seems to have forgotten UKIP and the fact that conservative voters (small 'c') do have a natural home and a leader whose style and straightforwardness appeals. Farage. There is a huge sense of betrayal. Go look at Coffeehouse or read DT blogs. The party base is effing furious.

    Looks to me very much like Dave has ruined his party and it won't get unruined until the chumocracy is replaced by a bunch of normal people. The Tory future belongs to the likes of Hammond and Davis and not to the 'elite'.

    This will all come to pass either before or immediately after Redward becomes PM. The disaster of Redward's premiership will propel the 'real' Tory into office (maybe in coalition / pact / joint ticket with UKIP).
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited May 2013
    @tim

    bit slow this morning aren't you? You haven't picked up on the Daily Mail story about Dave SamCam and his car.. Go to the back of the class!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328790/Sam-fell-car-says-Cameron-PM-says-able-woo-wife-drive-around.html
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    InMyHumOpInMyHumOp Posts: 16
    Tory Backbench eurosceptics should respond to Cleggs immature taunt by replying "if its immature to debate Britains national interest and its adult to meekly submit to Europe then give me immature any day of the week"
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    Nick P, I'm too busy at work to be able to devote much time to politics at the moment.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @Nick Palmer

    "As a matter of interest, would Sean Fear like to comment on why he's not switched to UKIP himself? It seems a more natural match than the Cameron Tories, and it'd be interesting to hear the viewpoint of right-wing loyalists"

    The Conservative party remains a broad church and whilst Sean sits to the right he surely wouldn't formally want to join a party with even more loons than the Tories.

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    It appears there were 14 Labour MP's who defied the whip and voted against third reading and 4 LibDems who opted for No in their free vote.
This discussion has been closed.