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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Unless independence campaigners can convince the oldies in

SystemSystem Posts: 11,706
edited August 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Unless independence campaigners can convince the oldies in the next 3 weeks then YES, surely, is doomed

A lot has been talked about the gender effect in the September 18th Scottish referendum and today a new Survation poll of pensioners for the Sunday Post highlights the generation battle.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Humph! What do old people know anyway?
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited August 2014
    Second, as I slip on my trews.
  • Options
    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Yes 60, no 40 +/- 3%. It's over, yes have lost
  • Options
    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    If they vote by post (I assume postal voting is available in the referendum) it may already be too late for the campaigners to change their minds.
  • Options
    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited August 2014
    Where is are the Whiskey-sodden ex-teachers when you want them? Calling OldNat: Your boys are taking a pounding! [sic]
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,904
    In the years ahead as these voters move to the great voteless zone in the sky this'll be a great excuse for a rerun
  • Options
    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    I suspect that pensioners are less likely to have been persuaded by the somewhat aggressive nature of the Yes campaign; the women even more so. I think it is obvious that they are also far less likely to vote for a leap into the dark.
  • Options
    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Roger said:

    In the years ahead as these voters move to the great voteless zone in the sky this'll be a great excuse for a rerun

    Yup. Braveheart quashed by his canny grannie...
  • Options
    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
  • Options
    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    malcolmg said:

    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
    Obvious troll, trolls obviously. Tick tock, soon be over.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,904
    "Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond."

    Poor Alex. Can things get any worse?
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,904
    "Yup. Braveheart quashed by his canny grannie..."



    http://www.reelscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/dr_finlays_casebook.jpg
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited August 2014
    malcolmg said:

    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
    See table 12

    Salmond is the least trusted on pensions of the politicians mentioned, with the obvious exception of discredited Swinney.Darling is easily the most trusted. Would you buy a used car from Eck ?
  • Options
    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Roger said:

    "Yup. Braveheart quashed by his canny grannie..."



    http://www.reelscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/dr_finlays_casebook.jpg

    I was thinking of her too... What was her name? Aggie?

  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,904
    Janet
  • Options
    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Innocent_Abroad said:

    Roger said:

    "Yup. Braveheart quashed by his canny grannie..."



    http://www.reelscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/dr_finlays_casebook.jpg

    I was thinking of her too... What was her name? Aggie?

    Pretty sure it's Janet.
  • Options
    hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    The trouble for Alex Salmond is that he cannot present a well argued financial case for independence, because he does not have all the information. Some of it, will be down to negotiation with the UK government, but also companies based in Scotland. It could well be the case that Scotland could see companies move their HQ's out of Scotland.

    On a different matter, it appears that todays Sunday Times YouGov poll is based on a sample of 460, according to the data on the last page of the poll. Or there has been an error.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    edited August 2014
    hucks67 said:

    The trouble for Alex Salmond is that he cannot present a well argued financial case for independence, because he does not have all the information. Some of it, will be down to negotiation with the UK government, but also companies based in Scotland. It could well be the case that Scotland could see companies move their HQ's out of Scotland.

    On a different matter, it appears that todays Sunday Times YouGov poll is based on a sample of 460, according to the data on the last page of the poll. Or there has been an error.

    Here are the tables: 1866 people polled.

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/8wj4hu4alm/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-140822-2.pdf
  • Options
    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Roger said:

    Janet

    So it was.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,403
    If either party had this sort of lead amongst the oldies in a GE with turnout of approximately 65% overall then they would indeed be home and hosed as the differential turnout would kill the opposition.

    But the pensioner effect is much diminished as turnout increases. If the overall turnout is 80%+ as is being forecast then the differential turnout is going to be, at best, just over 10% making the views of this group important but not as excessively so as they would be in a GE.

    There is an important lesson here for younger people. If you don't want your politicians to waste limited available resources on fripperies such as winter heating allowances, free TV licences, bus passes and additional pension while loading up the younger generation with debt as far as the eye can see, both personal for students and national in government debt they really need to vote.
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    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    If Salmond's fox were shot, would the same apply to the SNP?

    It appears to me that without their raison d'etre, the SNP could lose some voter support at next year's GE. When coupled with an assumed fall off in support for the LibDems, I question whether this could create a significant swing towards Labour, thereby resulting in seats such as Dundee East, East Dumbartonshire, Edinburgh West, and Na h-Eileanan an Iar potentially changing hands.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,904
    "Here are the tables: 1866 people polled."

    Interesting. If the old and the senile in the rest of the UK weren't allowed to vote the Tories would never be in government again.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Roger said:

    "Here are the tables: 1866 people polled."

    Interesting. If the old and the senile in the rest of the UK weren't allowed to vote the Tories would never be in government again.

    Trouble is, their numbers keep being replenished!
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,991
    Roger said:

    "Here are the tables: 1866 people polled."

    Interesting. If the old and the senile in the rest of the UK weren't allowed to vote the Tories would never be in government again.

    The Wise and Experienced, you mean?
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    FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Roger said:

    "Here are the tables: 1866 people polled."

    Interesting. If the old and the senile in the rest of the UK weren't allowed to vote the Tories would never be in government again.

    With age comes wisdom, the left always targets the youth for this reason.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    Roger said:

    In the years ahead as these voters move to the great voteless zone in the sky this'll be a great excuse for a rerun

    The Scottish Government has said this is a "once in a generation" chance - I believe Westminster "once in a lifetime" - so expect no re-run in the next couple of decades. Unless the Scottish government has lied : Innocent Face:
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    66/31

    That’s quite a significant margin in favour of remaining within the UK. - surprised it's so high.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Roger said:

    "Here are the tables: 1866 people polled."

    Interesting. If the old and the senile in the rest of the UK weren't allowed to vote the Tories would never be in government again.

    Roger one-way trip to Zurich NOW!

    Take yourself out before you become one of them !
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited August 2014
    Alanbrooke said:

    Roger said:

    "Here are the tables: 1866 people polled."

    Interesting. If the old and the senile in the rest of the UK weren't allowed to vote the Tories would never be in government again.

    Roger one-way trip to Zurich NOW!

    Take yourself out before you become one of them !
    too late for that.... Roger is not in charge of his faculties. He is old, and judging by his recent comments, senile in the extreme.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    FPT the views if a No voter on being confronted by a Yes canvasser:

    The signs are as follows:

    - assertion that the cause (in this case independence) will of itself bring about miraculous results

    - messianic belief that the cause is a force of destiny, i.e., that “history is on our side”

    - hatred and belittling of those who do not share the cause (see above)

    - irrational dismissal of impartial information such as opinion polls and the media as being in the hands of the enemies of the people

    - conspiracy theories (like advising voters to not use pencil provided as it can be rubbed out and falsified)

    These are then followed by denunciation of aims and leaders of the cause when miraculous results do not appear. So watch out after 18th September, whatever the outcome.

    http://planetpedro.wordpress.com/2014/08/23/dear-yes-voters-and-other-nationalists/
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Theresa May is having an extremely bad Sunday in the press, for anybody thinking of backing her as next tory leader.

    Possibly terminal.
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    RobD said:

    hucks67 said:

    The trouble for Alex Salmond is that he cannot present a well argued financial case for independence, because he does not have all the information. Some of it, will be down to negotiation with the UK government, but also companies based in Scotland. It could well be the case that Scotland could see companies move their HQ's out of Scotland.

    On a different matter, it appears that todays Sunday Times YouGov poll is based on a sample of 460, according to the data on the last page of the poll. Or there has been an error.

    Here are the tables: 1866 people polled.

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/8wj4hu4alm/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-140822-2.pdf
    But look at the last page , the weightings show only 460 sample size . Clearly there is an error somewhere even if it is just shoddy presentation of data .
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    AB..In Rogers case he is too late,just look at his posts..he has already morphed.
  • Options
    hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    RobD said:

    hucks67 said:

    The trouble for Alex Salmond is that he cannot present a well argued financial case for independence, because he does not have all the information. Some of it, will be down to negotiation with the UK government, but also companies based in Scotland. It could well be the case that Scotland could see companies move their HQ's out of Scotland.

    On a different matter, it appears that todays Sunday Times YouGov poll is based on a sample of 460, according to the data on the last page of the poll. Or there has been an error.

    Here are the tables: 1866 people polled.

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/8wj4hu4alm/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-140822-2.pdf
    I will forgive you as it is early Sunday morning. But add up the numbers on page 12 for age and gender. Comes to 459 people.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    MarkSenior said:

    RobD said:

    hucks67 said:

    The trouble for Alex Salmond is that he cannot present a well argued financial case for independence, because he does not have all the information. Some of it, will be down to negotiation with the UK government, but also companies based in Scotland. It could well be the case that Scotland could see companies move their HQ's out of Scotland.

    On a different matter, it appears that todays Sunday Times YouGov poll is based on a sample of 460, according to the data on the last page of the poll. Or there has been an error.

    Here are the tables: 1866 people polled.

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/8wj4hu4alm/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-140822-2.pdf
    But look at the last page , the weightings show only 460 sample size . Clearly there is an error somewhere even if it is just shoddy presentation of data .
    If I were to guess, I'd say the last page was in error somehow.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    Sunday Post Opinion piece on its poll:

    More than half the money collected through council tax in Scotland goes towards public sector pensions and our growing elderly population is pushing up the state pension bill every year, so it’s an issue which can’t be ignored. But the independence White Paper not only kicks the problem down the road but actually makes it more of a challenge with the promise of even higher payouts.

    http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/scotland/independence-referendum/independence-on-trial/oaps-panic-over-yes-vote-1.539040
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    hucks67 said:

    RobD said:

    hucks67 said:

    The trouble for Alex Salmond is that he cannot present a well argued financial case for independence, because he does not have all the information. Some of it, will be down to negotiation with the UK government, but also companies based in Scotland. It could well be the case that Scotland could see companies move their HQ's out of Scotland.

    On a different matter, it appears that todays Sunday Times YouGov poll is based on a sample of 460, according to the data on the last page of the poll. Or there has been an error.

    Here are the tables: 1866 people polled.

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/8wj4hu4alm/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-140822-2.pdf
    I will forgive you as it is early Sunday morning. But add up the numbers on page 12 for age and gender. Comes to 459 people.
    Yeah, I'd guess that page is in error. YouGov polls are typically ~2k people, so it would make sense that 1866 is the true sample size.
  • Options
    hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    RobD said:

    hucks67 said:

    The trouble for Alex Salmond is that he cannot present a well argued financial case for independence, because he does not have all the information. Some of it, will be down to negotiation with the UK government, but also companies based in Scotland. It could well be the case that Scotland could see companies move their HQ's out of Scotland.

    On a different matter, it appears that todays Sunday Times YouGov poll is based on a sample of 460, according to the data on the last page of the poll. Or there has been an error.

    Here are the tables: 1866 people polled.

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/8wj4hu4alm/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-140822-2.pdf
    But look at the last page , the weightings show only 460 sample size . Clearly there is an error somewhere even if it is just shoddy presentation of data .
    If I were to guess, I'd say the last page was in error somehow.
    I don't think it is the last page, as normally that would show a sample size of about 2000. Anthony Wells has always said that YG don't normally do polls near a bank holiday, because of past experience. I think YG struggled to get their usual sample number.

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    edited August 2014
    richardDodd said:

    AB..In Rogers case he is too late,just look at his posts..he has already morphed.

    Not yet.

    But one day Roger will be marching through London shouting for Gaza and practicing his quenelles.

    Then as he passes the Edinburgh Woollen Mill Shop suddenly he will find an almost irresistible urge to pop in and browse. At that point he will have crossed over, the old Roger will have gone.

    A new Roger will emerge in tartan slippers and a cardigan asking why the people who plan demos never put enough toilets on the route and praising George Osborne for the latest rise in pensions.

    Forget Lab\Con crossover, Basil should be tailing Roger.

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    hucks67 said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    RobD said:

    hucks67 said:

    The trouble for Alex Salmond is that he cannot present a well argued financial case for independence, because he does not have all the information. Some of it, will be down to negotiation with the UK government, but also companies based in Scotland. It could well be the case that Scotland could see companies move their HQ's out of Scotland.

    On a different matter, it appears that todays Sunday Times YouGov poll is based on a sample of 460, according to the data on the last page of the poll. Or there has been an error.

    Here are the tables: 1866 people polled.

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/8wj4hu4alm/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-140822-2.pdf
    But look at the last page , the weightings show only 460 sample size . Clearly there is an error somewhere even if it is just shoddy presentation of data .
    If I were to guess, I'd say the last page was in error somehow.
    I don't think it is the last page, as normally that would show a sample size of about 2000. Anthony Wells has always said that YG don't normally do polls near a bank holiday, because of past experience. I think YG struggled to get their usual sample number.

    YouGov did a Sunday Times poll before the bank holiday on the 5th of May and got 1,945 respondents, similarly before the 25th of May and got 1,898 respondents. The sunday polls are typically completed on the Thu/Fri of the previous week, so I don't buy that argument. I'm standing with my guess that the last page is wrong.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    Scottish pensioner No voters - how concerned (very/somewhat) about funding of your pension in:

    Independent Scotland: 96%
    Scotland in UK: 32%

    http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Scottish-Pensioners-Poll-Tables.pdf
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    And who do the No voters trust on their pension:

    Darling: 39
    Osborne: 23
    Cameron: 18
    Brown: 16
    Sturgeon: 2
    Swinney: 1
    Salmond: 1
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    CarlottaVance said:

    And who do the No voters trust on their pension:

    Darling: 39
    Osborne: 23
    Cameron: 18
    Brown: 16
    Sturgeon: 2
    Swinney: 1
    Salmond: 1

    It's worth remembering that Salmond, so far, is due an amazing six pensions.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10133636/Its-easy-for-Salmond-to-be-so-blithe-about-pensions.html

    The majority of them will be paid in sterling, so he's got no worries.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Ed Balls says Salmond has no plan for currency.

    Which coming from a bloke who has no economic plan for the UK is a bit rich.


    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/23/ed-balls-scotland-euro-least-bad-option-independence
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    edited August 2014
    taffys said:

    Theresa May is having an extremely bad Sunday in the press, for anybody thinking of backing her as next tory leader.

    Possibly terminal.

    What are you thinking of? I can't see the print versions from Berlin but from what's on here:
    http://www.thepaperboy.com/uk/front-pages.cfm
    ...the only really negative one for her is "Border Controls In Chaos" in the Sunday Telegraph.

    This isn't good, but Home Secretaries always have Border Controls In Chaos headlines, because the voters have impossible and contradictory expectations of what border controls can do.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    MonikerDiCanio said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    And who do the No voters trust on their pension:

    Darling: 39
    Osborne: 23
    Cameron: 18
    Brown: 16
    Sturgeon: 2
    Swinney: 1
    Salmond: 1

    It's worth remembering that Salmond, so far, is due an amazing six pensions.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10133636/Its-easy-for-Salmond-to-be-so-blithe-about-pensions.html

    The majority of them will be paid in sterling, so he's got no worries.
    Poor Carlotta , too stupid to know that pensions must be paid out by the entity that took the cash , even Monica knows that basic fact.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    hucks67 said:

    RobD said:

    MarkSenior said:

    RobD said:

    hucks67 said:

    The trouble for Alex Salmond is that he cannot present a well argued financial case for independence, because he does not have all the information. Some of it, will be down to negotiation with the UK government, but also companies based in Scotland. It could well be the case that Scotland could see companies move their HQ's out of Scotland.

    On a different matter, it appears that todays Sunday Times YouGov poll is based on a sample of 460, according to the data on the last page of the poll. Or there has been an error.

    Here are the tables: 1866 people polled.

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/8wj4hu4alm/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-140822-2.pdf
    But look at the last page , the weightings show only 460 sample size . Clearly there is an error somewhere even if it is just shoddy presentation of data .
    If I were to guess, I'd say the last page was in error somehow.
    I don't think it is the last page, as normally that would show a sample size of about 2000. Anthony Wells has always said that YG don't normally do polls near a bank holiday, because of past experience. I think YG struggled to get their usual sample number.

    Don't burst the frothers bubble, they will be most disappointed that it is weighted horse manure
  • Options
    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    malcolmg said:

    MonikerDiCanio said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    And who do the No voters trust on their pension:

    Darling: 39
    Osborne: 23
    Cameron: 18
    Brown: 16
    Sturgeon: 2
    Swinney: 1
    Salmond: 1

    It's worth remembering that Salmond, so far, is due an amazing six pensions.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10133636/Its-easy-for-Salmond-to-be-so-blithe-about-pensions.html

    The majority of them will be paid in sterling, so he's got no worries.
    Poor Carlotta , too stupid to know that pensions must be paid out by the entity that took the cash , even Monica knows that basic fact.
    Malcolm you seem to be labouring under the same misunderstanding as OGH - there is no pension pot. State pensioners only have a promise from politicians about how much of tomorrow's tax or borrowing will come to them. You are surely aware state pensions are unfunded and we operate a 'pay as you go' scheme. Scotland's 8% of that unfunded ponzi scheme is no different from England's 92%.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    EiT

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/502667/FBI-agents-guard-UK-airports-against-jihadi-fanatics

    we are so cr8p, the Americans are having to step in. OK its the Express, but its actually quite a good story from what is normally an utterly dismal paper.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    Alanbrooke said:

    malcolmg said:

    saddened said:

    malcolmg said:

    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
    Obvious troll, trolls obviously. Tick tock, soon be over.
    Sad twat endlessly adds zero to debate , dire
    That's a bit harsh on Swinney there malc.
    morning Alan, level of debate on here nowadays is pretty pathetic. If I was not a masochist I would have left long ago. I persist for the few humans that post sensibly and intelligently.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    malcolmg said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    malcolmg said:

    saddened said:

    malcolmg said:

    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
    Obvious troll, trolls obviously. Tick tock, soon be over.
    Sad twat endlessly adds zero to debate , dire
    That's a bit harsh on Swinney there malc.
    morning Alan, level of debate on here nowadays is pretty pathetic. If I was not a masochist I would have left long ago. I persist for the few humans that post sensibly and intelligently.
    The whole level of Indy debate is dire, all sides are entrenched, theres nothing new to say and the vote should have happened 2 years ago. It's flogging a dead horse.
  • Options
    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    ...and the Jock oldies are absolutely dead right to be worried about their pensions in an independent Scotland:

    http://www.samizdata.net/2014/08/an-independent-scotland-will-have-to-choose-between-the-pound-and-socialism/
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    EiT

    David Davis also monstered May's terror asbo plan in the Mail....
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Alanbrooke said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    malcolmg said:

    saddened said:

    malcolmg said:

    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
    Obvious troll, trolls obviously. Tick tock, soon be over.
    Sad twat endlessly adds zero to debate , dire
    That's a bit harsh on Swinney there malc.
    morning Alan, level of debate on here nowadays is pretty pathetic. If I was not a masochist I would have left long ago. I persist for the few humans that post sensibly and intelligently.
    The whole level of Indy debate is dire, all sides are entrenched, theres nothing new to say and the vote should have happened 2 years ago. It's flogging a dead horse.
    I'm a flagellant, a necrophiliac and a bestialist - but I don't get so much pleasure from it and sometimes wonder if I'm flogging a dead horse. ;-)
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    MonikerDiCanio said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    And who do the No voters trust on their pension:

    Darling: 39
    Osborne: 23
    Cameron: 18
    Brown: 16
    Sturgeon: 2
    Swinney: 1
    Salmond: 1

    It's worth remembering that Salmond, so far, is due an amazing six pensions.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10133636/Its-easy-for-Salmond-to-be-so-blithe-about-pensions.html

    The majority of them will be paid in sterling, so he's got no worries.
    Poor Carlotta , too stupid to know that pensions must be paid out by the entity that took the cash , even Monica knows that basic fact.
    Malcolm you seem to be labouring under the same misunderstanding as OGH - there is no pension pot. State pensioners only have a promise from politicians about how much of tomorrow's tax or borrowing will come to them. You are surely aware state pensions are unfunded and we operate a 'pay as you go' scheme. Scotland's 8% of that unfunded ponzi scheme is no different from England's 92%.
    Patrick , indeed and thus anyone who has paid into these imaginary schemes will either get their money from that entity, be it rumpUK or Scotland in future, or they will get stiffed. Stupid people like Carlotta do not understand that they are as likely to get nothing in the UK as they are in Scotland. The unionist camp is full of dunderheids like that, they are hoping that Scottish people will be as stupid as them and believe the same and be scared enough to stay slaves to Westminster in the mistaken belief that they will get more crumbs from the table, or even keep getting the current amount of crumbs.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    edited August 2014
    SquareRoot said:

    malcolmg said:

    saddened said:

    malcolmg said:

    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
    Obvious troll, trolls obviously. Tick tock, soon be over.
    Sad twat endlessly adds zero to debate , dire
    its your lack of self awareness problem showing up again. Yu are relentlessly rude to people till the moderator warns you and then you slither off. When it comes to adding nothing to he debate", you should look in the mirror.
    When have I ever slithered off fanny features. I am not a quivering jessie like yourself.
    Another dumpling that adds nothing , an empty headed F***wit who would struggle to spell his name.

    PS: A boring little sh**head as well to boot
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    Alanbrooke said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    malcolmg said:

    saddened said:

    malcolmg said:

    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
    Obvious troll, trolls obviously. Tick tock, soon be over.
    Sad twat endlessly adds zero to debate , dire
    That's a bit harsh on Swinney there malc.
    morning Alan, level of debate on here nowadays is pretty pathetic. If I was not a masochist I would have left long ago. I persist for the few humans that post sensibly and intelligently.
    The whole level of Indy debate is dire, all sides are entrenched, theres nothing new to say and the vote should have happened 2 years ago. It's flogging a dead horse.
    I agree with you there Alan, anyone who has not made up their mind by now has to be mentally challenged.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    Patrick said:

    ...and the Jock oldies are absolutely dead right to be worried about their pensions in an independent Scotland:

    http://www.samizdata.net/2014/08/an-independent-scotland-will-have-to-choose-between-the-pound-and-socialism/

    Thye should be worried whether they will continue to get the worst pension in Europe under the UK and the fact that Westminster are raising the age you get it to ensure Scots contribute and get nothing back. They cause poverty and then hav eunfair pension rules to rob Scots afterwards.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    Minor update from the Labour NEC elections: membership is up by nearly 4000 on last year (which I think may be usual as an election approaches?) and turnout for the NEC ballot has nearly doubled over a few years ago, from an embarrassing 18% to a modest 33%. I suspect most members hadn't previously heard of half the candidates (I certainly hadn't) though you get a booklet with their statements. Probably the main significance is somewhat greater involement with membership rather than just paying subs and turning out to select the Parliamentary candidate.

    How are you enjoying Berlin, EiT? it's the only major capital in Western Europe that I've never been to - I'd like to, sometime...
  • Options
    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    SquareRoot said:

    malcolmg said:

    saddened said:

    malcolmg said:

    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
    Obvious troll, trolls obviously. Tick tock, soon be over.
    Sad twat endlessly adds zero to debate , dire
    its your lack of self awareness problem showing up again. Yu are relentlessly rude to people till the moderator warns you and then you slither off. When it comes to adding nothing to he debate", you should look in the mirror.
    He is not alone. Until about 8 o'clock this was a civilized forum, since when it has degenerated into a heap of personal abuse. It's a good thing OGH doesn't ask me to moderate, or there'd be a fair few of you with red cards...

  • Options
    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Malc you have a chip on your shoulder. It's not hard to distinguish you from a ray of sunshine. Why do you think Scots contribute and get nothing back? State spending per head is fully 11% higher than in England. Is it 'the oil'?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Innocent_Abroad said:

    SquareRoot said:

    malcolmg said:

    saddened said:

    malcolmg said:

    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
    Obvious troll, trolls obviously. Tick tock, soon be over.
    Sad twat endlessly adds zero to debate , dire
    its your lack of self awareness problem showing up again. Yu are relentlessly rude to people till the moderator warns you and then you slither off. When it comes to adding nothing to he debate", you should look in the mirror.
    He is not alone. Until about 8 o'clock this was a civilized forum, since when it has degenerated into a heap of personal abuse. It's a good thing OGH doesn't ask me to moderate, or there'd be a fair few of you with red cards...

    if you were moderator we'd be debating philosophy.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    malcolmg said:

    MonikerDiCanio said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    And who do the No voters trust on their pension:

    Darling: 39
    Osborne: 23
    Cameron: 18
    Brown: 16
    Sturgeon: 2
    Swinney: 1
    Salmond: 1

    It's worth remembering that Salmond, so far, is due an amazing six pensions.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10133636/Its-easy-for-Salmond-to-be-so-blithe-about-pensions.html

    The majority of them will be paid in sterling, so he's got no worries.
    Poor Carlotta , too stupid to know that pensions must be paid out by the entity that took the cash , even Monica knows that basic fact.
    Poor Malcolm - those nice people at the Sunday Post have anticipated such ignorance:

    State pension payments are made from general taxation year in year out. There is no funding reserve build up over time to pay future pensions.

    http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/scotland/pensions-in-an-independent-scotland-we-ask-the-expert-1.539034
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    Innocent_Abroad said:

    SquareRoot said:

    malcolmg said:

    saddened said:

    malcolmg said:

    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
    Obvious troll, trolls obviously. Tick tock, soon be over.
    Sad twat endlessly adds zero to debate , dire
    its your lack of self awareness problem showing up again. Yu are relentlessly rude to people till the moderator warns you and then you slither off. When it comes to adding nothing to he debate", you should look in the mirror.
    He is not alone. Until about 8 o'clock this was a civilized forum, since when it has degenerated into a heap of personal abuse. It's a good thing OGH doesn't ask me to moderate, or there'd be a fair few of you with red cards...

    Don't worry the dumpling will soon be back with personal insults, he has nothing else to offer. A puerile halfwit.
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited August 2014
    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    ...and the Jock oldies are absolutely dead right to be worried about their pensions in an independent Scotland:

    http://www.samizdata.net/2014/08/an-independent-scotland-will-have-to-choose-between-the-pound-and-socialism/

    Thye should be worried whether they will continue to get the worst pension in Europe under the UK and the fact that Westminster are raising the age you get it to ensure Scots contribute and get nothing back. They cause poverty and then hav eunfair pension rules to rob Scots afterwards.
    Malcolm, can you back up your claim that UK pensions are " the worst in Europe " ? Even by your standards it seems unreliable.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    Patrick said:

    Malc you have a chip on your shoulder. It's not hard to distinguish you from a ray of sunshine. Why do you think Scots contribute and get nothing back? State spending per head is fully 11% higher than in England. Is it 'the oil'?

    Patrick, we chip in a lot more than we get back and get sh** on for doing it. Read your papers recently re how they want to impoverish us. Hard not to have a chip when you see the rubbish that comes up from down south I am afraid. You get arseholes on here pontificating about Scotland etc. We pay our way and get monstered for it. Hiding Scottish contributions to try and pretend we are subsidised is despicable.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    CarlottaVance said:

    malcolmg said:

    MonikerDiCanio said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    And who do the No voters trust on their pension:

    Darling: 39
    Osborne: 23
    Cameron: 18
    Brown: 16
    Sturgeon: 2
    Swinney: 1
    Salmond: 1

    It's worth remembering that Salmond, so far, is due an amazing six pensions.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10133636/Its-easy-for-Salmond-to-be-so-blithe-about-pensions.html

    The majority of them will be paid in sterling, so he's got no worries.
    Poor Carlotta , too stupid to know that pensions must be paid out by the entity that took the cash , even Monica knows that basic fact.
    Poor Malcolm - those nice people at the Sunday Post have anticipated such ignorance:

    State pension payments are made from general taxation year in year out. There is no funding reserve build up over time to pay future pensions.

    http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/scotland/pensions-in-an-independent-scotland-we-ask-the-expert-1.539034
    I am sure you will love paying Scottish pensions when we are independent. Having contributed for a full UK state pension I will think of you wailing and gnashing your teeth as I collect my UK pension paid by rumpUK, in an independent Scotland.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    A wee scunner has been learning from the Wee Free Men again.
  • Options
    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    The referendum is a step on the road to the ultimate break-up of the UK,even if No wins.This presents opportunities for England to make the parish of London accountable to the regions.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    malcolmg said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    malcolmg said:

    MonikerDiCanio said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    And who do the No voters trust on their pension:

    Darling: 39
    Osborne: 23
    Cameron: 18
    Brown: 16
    Sturgeon: 2
    Swinney: 1
    Salmond: 1

    It's worth remembering that Salmond, so far, is due an amazing six pensions.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10133636/Its-easy-for-Salmond-to-be-so-blithe-about-pensions.html

    The majority of them will be paid in sterling, so he's got no worries.
    Poor Carlotta , too stupid to know that pensions must be paid out by the entity that took the cash , even Monica knows that basic fact.
    Poor Malcolm - those nice people at the Sunday Post have anticipated such ignorance:

    State pension payments are made from general taxation year in year out. There is no funding reserve build up over time to pay future pensions.

    http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/scotland/pensions-in-an-independent-scotland-we-ask-the-expert-1.539034
    I am sure you will love paying Scottish pensions when we are independent. Having contributed for a full UK state pension I will think of you wailing and gnashing your teeth as I collect my UK pension paid by rumpUK, in an independent Scotland.
    That'll be in the Currency Union too I guess?

    Why are 96% of No-voting Scottish pensioner worried about their pension in an independent Scotland?

    Are they all thick turnips too?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    test
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    taffys said:

    EiT

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/502667/FBI-agents-guard-UK-airports-against-jihadi-fanatics

    we are so cr8p, the Americans are having to step in. OK its the Express, but its actually quite a good story from what is normally an utterly dismal paper.

    Considering the present discussion, and the state of the world in general, if ever there should be a time to value special relationships, it is now.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    edited August 2014
    MonikerDiCanio said:

    malcolmg said:

    Patrick said:

    ...and the Jock oldies are absolutely dead right to be worried about their pensions in an independent Scotland:

    http://www.samizdata.net/2014/08/an-independent-scotland-will-have-to-choose-between-the-pound-and-socialism/

    Thye should be worried whether they will continue to get the worst pension in Europe under the UK and the fact that Westminster are raising the age you get it to ensure Scots contribute and get nothing back. They cause poverty and then hav eunfair pension rules to rob Scots afterwards.
    Malcolm, can you back up your claim that UK pensions are " the worst in Europe " ? Even by your standards it seems unreliable.
    you will see the links once the thought police have checked it out, any fool could have googled it though
    http://money.aol.co.uk/2013/11/28/uk-state-pension-is-lowest-in-europe/

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2514232/Britains-pension-shame-State-packages-worst-world-study-shows.html

    Is that sufficient for you
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    edited August 2014
    CarlottaVance said:

    malcolmg said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    malcolmg said:

    MonikerDiCanio said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    And who do the No voters trust on their pension:

    Darling: 39
    Osborne: 23
    Cameron: 18
    Brown: 16
    Sturgeon: 2
    Swinney: 1
    Salmond: 1

    It's worth remembering that Salmond, so far, is due an amazing six pensions.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10133636/Its-easy-for-Salmond-to-be-so-blithe-about-pensions.html

    The majority of them will be paid in sterling, so he's got no worries.
    Poor Carlotta , too stupid to know that pensions must be paid out by the entity that took the cash , even Monica knows that basic fact.
    Poor Malcolm - those nice people at the Sunday Post have anticipated such ignorance:

    State pension payments are made from general taxation year in year out. There is no funding reserve build up over time to pay future pensions.

    http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/scotland/pensions-in-an-independent-scotland-we-ask-the-expert-1.539034
    I am sure you will love paying Scottish pensions when we are independent. Having contributed for a full UK state pension I will think of you wailing and gnashing your teeth as I collect my UK pension paid by rumpUK, in an independent Scotland.
    That'll be in the Currency Union too I guess?

    Why are 96% of No-voting Scottish pensioner worried about their pension in an independent Scotland?

    Are they all thick turnips too?
    It would appear so given the UK pensions minister has publicly stated that they will have sole responsibility for all pensions accrued up and until actual independence. So YES they are being scared by BT or are stupid.

    PS: That will be in or out of a CU.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    malcolm g is correct on that one:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2514232/Britains-pension-shame-State-packages-worst-world-study-shows.html
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,904
    "if you were moderator we'd be debating philosophy."

    What should Scotsmen wear under their kilts when sitting adjacent to a head of state?


    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SRTBaafRZfw/TOq_839e-hI/AAAAAAAAFLw/Cg18gonIXkY/s1600/queen_and_soldiers.jpg
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Roger said:

    "if you were moderator we'd be debating philosophy."

    What should Scotsmen wear under their kilts when sitting adjacent to a head of state?


    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SRTBaafRZfw/TOq_839e-hI/AAAAAAAAFLw/Cg18gonIXkY/s1600/queen_and_soldiers.jpg

    I thought you couldn't link to Prince Albert photos ?
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    taffys said:

    EiT

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/502667/FBI-agents-guard-UK-airports-against-jihadi-fanatics

    we are so cr8p, the Americans are having to step in. OK its the Express, but its actually quite a good story from what is normally an utterly dismal paper.

    That story doesn't seem like an obvious negative for May; The press have been talking up a Something Must Be Done issue involving Jihadis and this is definitely Something. I'm not sure what US TV you get over there but presumably bringing in the FBI sounds appropriately decisive.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,463
    edited August 2014
    For those wot missed it late last night:

    Exclusive - the 2nd ever Sunil on Sunday ELBOW!

    Electoral Leader-Board Of the Week (7 polls with Field-work 17th to 22nd August 2014):

    Lab 37.2% (+1.0)
    Con 33.4% (+0.3)
    UKIP 12.8% (-0.3)
    LibDem 8.6% (-0.2)

    (brackets - changes from our inaugural ELBOW last Sunday 17th August)

    Now JackW will definitely be able to know his ARSE from our ELBOW :)
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    edited August 2014
    NickPalmer said:

    How are you enjoying Berlin, EiT? it's the only major capital in Western Europe that I've never been to - I'd like to, sometime...

    Very nice - certainly better than being in Tokyo in August. Lots of interesting history, spacious, good transport, fairly cheap even where reasonably gentrified (we have an AirBNB place in fashionable Prenzlauer Berg).

    From my point of view there's also a lot of developer activity as people get pulled in from all over Europe - ran into some people building a prediction market on my API that I hadn't known about...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,403
    The stunning statistic in that quote from the learned Sunday Post is half of our Council Tax now goes in paying pensions. This is bordering on extortion.

    Earlier this year one of the high head yins at Dundee City Council decided to retire. Because this was contrived to occur in yet another reorganisation she walked away with over £300K of Council Tax money and, of course, an extremely generous unfunded pension.

    I have a neighbour who retired on such a pension at 59. My Council Tax, when I am still working at 70 (health permitting) will be funding that.

    There is currently a golden generation of well paid, enormously subsidised public sector management who are gaining wealth in a way that would make a banker blush. They never retire, they always get a "package", they get index linked pensions based on final salaries and they retire young. All of this will change and, in fairness, is starting to change already but the cost of this clovered generation will be a problem for the next 30 years.

    Malcolm is deluding himself if he thinks rUK are going to be paying this extortion for those who have lived and worked in Scotland. That horrendous cost will fall on an independent Scotland and we will have as big a problem with it as the rest of the UK, possibly more so as our public sector is somewhat bigger.

    Neil will be on shortly and point out once again it is anticipated that the share of our GDP subsidising such pensions is projected to fall. This is because of the sort of reforms that the Coalition has brought in including later retirement, higher contributions from the staff themselves and moves towards average pensions. But very little of this will hurt the golden generation now in their late 50s and desperately looking for the exit before the gates are shut.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,463
    edited August 2014
    Apols if posted before, but one for TSE and PB Who fans :)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-28892903
  • Options
    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited August 2014
    malcolmg said:

    Poor Carlotta , too stupid to know that pensions must be paid out by the entity that took the cash , even Monica knows that basic fact.

    Unckie' Malc':

    I did posit this question a few weeks ago but I will repeat due to your forgetfulness. If Scotland reneges on UK debt who is responsible for Scottish pensions (considering they are not invested but tend to come from Current Expenditure)?

    I am sure that you replied that these benefits will come from the national entity. Your recent comment appear to contradict this; please clarify.

    :better-apart:

    EtA: You and Patrick have re clarified the point. :)
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    NickPalmer said:

    malcolm g is correct on that one:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2514232/Britains-pension-shame-State-packages-worst-world-study-shows.html

    No he isn't.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/10737425/UK-pensions-make-top-10-in-global-index.html
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,463
    edited August 2014
    Toms said:

    Humph! What do old people know anyway?

    I'm ready to tell you my secret now.

    Come closer. I see old people!
  • Options
    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @NickPalmer

    'malcolm g is correct on that one:'


    But the best private pensions until Gordon Brown trashed them.


    'The man who stole your old age: How Gordon Brown ...
    www.dailymail.co.uk/.../The-man-stole-old-age-How-Gordon-Brown-sec...

    'Gordon Brown decided pension funds were a ripe target and knowingly destroyed what was once one of the great pension systems in the world. Eleven million people with company pensions and a further seven million with personal pensions were affected by the sleight of hand dreamt up in that posh Park Lane penthouse.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1266662/The-man-stole-old-age-How-Gordon-Brown-secretly-imposed-ruinous-tax-wrecked-retirements-millions.html#ixzz3BIZ7b7x4
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    DavidL said:

    The stunning statistic in that quote from the learned Sunday Post is half of our Council Tax now goes in paying pensions. This is bordering on extortion.

    Earlier this year one of the high head yins at Dundee City Council decided to retire. Because this was contrived to occur in yet another reorganisation she walked away with over £300K of Council Tax money and, of course, an extremely generous unfunded pension.

    I have a neighbour who retired on such a pension at 59. My Council Tax, when I am still working at 70 (health permitting) will be funding that.

    There is currently a golden generation of well paid, enormously subsidised public sector management who are gaining wealth in a way that would make a banker blush. They never retire, they always get a "package", they get index linked pensions based on final salaries and they retire young. All of this will change and, in fairness, is starting to change already but the cost of this clovered generation will be a problem for the next 30 years.

    Malcolm is deluding himself if he thinks rUK are going to be paying this extortion for those who have lived and worked in Scotland. That horrendous cost will fall on an independent Scotland and we will have as big a problem with it as the rest of the UK, possibly more so as our public sector is somewhat bigger.

    Neil will be on shortly and point out once again it is anticipated that the share of our GDP subsidising such pensions is projected to fall. This is because of the sort of reforms that the Coalition has brought in including later retirement, higher contributions from the staff themselves and moves towards average pensions. But very little of this will hurt the golden generation now in their late 50s and desperately looking for the exit before the gates are shut.

    David , for once we agree. However I did not say anywhere that it would be for UK to pay all future pensions. They will be and have stated publicly that they will be responsible for any pension contributions made till independence, that means state pensions and any civil servant pensions under UK. Local government pensions will come under the local government having the pension scheme.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    On the subject of worrying statistics, here is a happy thought for a Sunday morning:

    "Some 80% of MPs lack basic understanding of where the UK’s money comes from, according to a new poll."

    http://blueandgreentomorrow.com/2014/08/19/poll-three-quarters-of-mps-dont-understand-how-money-is-made/
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,403
    edited August 2014
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Apols if posted before, but one for TSE and PB Who fans :)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-28892903

    The Courier has republished a story from January 1913 where they reported the dramatic story of Peter Capaldi's grandfather who asked his Dundee landlady's daughter to marry him. She refused and he then shot himself, fortunately just below the heart. He survived and she changed her mind allowing this manifestation of the Doctor to come into existence. Whether there was any time travelling involved in the remarkable recovery is not made clear.

    Despite this vivid demonstration of Scottish irrationality he was also interned during WW2 and died shortly after.

  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    MonikerDiCanio said:

    NickPalmer said:

    malcolm g is correct on that one:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2514232/Britains-pension-shame-State-packages-worst-world-study-shows.html

    No he isn't.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/10737425/UK-pensions-make-top-10-in-global-index.html
    Ha Ha Ha , usual lying unionist. UK has the worst state pension in Europe and almost the world. Trust you to shout "look a squirrel" when you are proved totally wrong.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited August 2014
    NickPalmer said:

    malcolm g is correct on that one:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2514232/Britains-pension-shame-State-packages-worst-world-study-shows.html


    Maybe, maybe not. How different countries operate "state" pensions is fiendishly complex. France for instance, I believe, has minimum non contribution pensions, mandatory " state occupational " pensions and so on. How do you compare apples with apples? What age are these valid from? Are they all inflation proofed? And how sustainable are they over the next decades? France appears to be adopting an ostrich policy to increasing life expectancy which will cause huge headaches to other parts of their budget if they wish to continue down that path ( they may, if they're prepared for the sacrifice). How does the private sector dovetail into a this by country? We used to do pretty well on that measure (along with the Dutch) till Gordon Brown screwed it all up big time.

    It's an easy headline to say "we're crap ", the reality is more subtle. Though we are far crapper than in 1997 no doubt.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    Yes could theoretically still win without winning older voters, but they do need to make serious inroads, an 88% turnout of the over 60s on a 24% margin for No would make a Yes victory all but impossible, particularly as even if all other age groups vote Yes, the Yes margin will likely be smaller and on a lower turnout.

    volcanopete It can be solved by English votes for English laws
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    HurstLlama said:

    On the subject of worrying statistics, here is a happy thought for a Sunday morning:

    "Some 80% of MPs lack basic understanding of where the UK’s money comes from, according to a new poll."

    http://blueandgreentomorrow.com/2014/08/19/poll-three-quarters-of-mps-dont-understand-how-money-is-made/

    I assume Osborne and Cameron are in that 80% ?
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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    DavidL said:

    The stunning statistic in that quote from the learned Sunday Post is half of our Council Tax now goes in paying pensions. This is bordering on extortion.

    Earlier this year one of the high head yins at Dundee City Council decided to retire. Because this was contrived to occur in yet another reorganisation she walked away with over £300K of Council Tax money and, of course, an extremely generous unfunded pension.

    I have a neighbour who retired on such a pension at 59. My Council Tax, when I am still working at 70 (health permitting) will be funding that.

    There is currently a golden generation of well paid, enormously subsidised public sector management who are gaining wealth in a way that would make a banker blush. They never retire, they always get a "package", they get index linked pensions based on final salaries and they retire young. All of this will change and, in fairness, is starting to change already but the cost of this clovered generation will be a problem for the next 30 years.

    Malcolm is deluding himself if he thinks rUK are going to be paying this extortion for those who have lived and worked in Scotland. That horrendous cost will fall on an independent Scotland and we will have as big a problem with it as the rest of the UK, possibly more so as our public sector is somewhat bigger.

    Neil will be on shortly and point out once again it is anticipated that the share of our GDP subsidising such pensions is projected to fall. This is because of the sort of reforms that the Coalition has brought in including later retirement, higher contributions from the staff themselves and moves towards average pensions. But very little of this will hurt the golden generation now in their late 50s and desperately looking for the exit before the gates are shut.

    What he said. Anyone who believes otherwise is either deluded or extorting the English tax-payer and off to Tromso.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114
    FluffyThoughts said:

    malcolmg said:

    Poor Carlotta , too stupid to know that pensions must be paid out by the entity that took the cash , even Monica knows that basic fact.

    Unckie' Malc':

    I did posit this question a few weeks ago but I will repeat due to your forgetfulness. If Scotland reneges on UK debt who is responsible for Scottish pensions (considering they are not invested but tend to come from Current Expenditure)?

    I am sure that you replied that these benefits will come from the national entity. Your recent comment appear to contradict this; please clarify.

    :better-apart:

    EtA: You and Patrick have re clarified the point. :)
    Fluffy, Scotland will not renege on any debts, we do not have debts as you should know. All debt is the UK's which you claim will remain after we leave. We have generously said we would help the rumpUK out but not under any circumstances, given the threats to steal our assets etc. With regards to the pensions, the UK have publicly stated, and I am sure they would always follow international laws, that anyone who has contributed to existing UK schemes will receive their fair dues.
    Millions of people who contributed and now live in foreign countries receive their pensions, just as people in Scotland would. This is not hard to understand and it may have been many many years since they contributed to UK tax system so what would change. Do you suggest they will stop paying pensions to ex pat Scots who currently receive it outside the UK.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    malcolmg said:

    SquareRoot said:

    malcolmg said:

    saddened said:

    malcolmg said:

    Financier said:

    Poll says George Osborne trusted more than Alex Salmond.

    Only a turnip such as you could post such falsehoods.
    Obvious troll, trolls obviously. Tick tock, soon be over.
    Sad twat endlessly adds zero to debate , dire
    its your lack of self awareness problem showing up again. Yu are relentlessly rude to people till the moderator warns you and then you slither off. When it comes to adding nothing to he debate", you should look in the mirror.
    When have I ever slithered off fanny features. I am not a quivering jessie like yourself.
    Another dumpling that adds nothing , an empty headed F***wit who would struggle to spell his name.

    PS: A boring little sh**head as well to boot
    You always do Malc, once the level of insult has reached the point where they wont tolerate it any more..and noboby can be arsed to parley with you. As for the insults, I rest my case, as to my contributuion to the debate, the remarkable similarity between Eck and Jabba the Hut stands for all to see.
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    malcolmg said:

    MonikerDiCanio said:

    NickPalmer said:

    malcolm g is correct on that one:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2514232/Britains-pension-shame-State-packages-worst-world-study-shows.html

    No he isn't.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/10737425/UK-pensions-make-top-10-in-global-index.html
    Ha Ha Ha , usual lying unionist. UK has the worst state pension in Europe and almost the world. Trust you to shout "look a squirrel" when you are proved totally wrong.
    I see you've slipped "state" in. You've said UK pensions are the worst in Europe and you're determined to maintain that system in an independent Scotland. Salmondesque.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. G, UK pensions are pretty awful now, due in large part to Gordon Brown.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited August 2014
    DavidL said:

    The stunning statistic in that quote from the learned Sunday Post is half of our Council Tax now goes in paying pensions. This is bordering on extortion.

    Earlier this year one of the high head yins at Dundee City Council decided to retire. Because this was contrived to occur in yet another reorganisation she walked away with over £300K of Council Tax money and, of course, an extremely generous unfunded pension.

    I have a neighbour who retired on such a pension at 59. My Council Tax, when I am still working at 70 (health permitting) will be funding that.

    There is currently a golden generation of well paid, enormously subsidised public sector management who are gaining wealth in a way that would make a banker blush. They never retire, they always get a "package", they get index linked pensions based on final salaries and they retire young. All of this will change and, in fairness, is starting to change already but the cost of this clovered generation will be a problem for the next 30 years.

    Malcolm is deluding himself if he thinks rUK are going to be paying this extortion for those who have lived and worked in Scotland. That horrendous cost will fall on an independent Scotland and we will have as big a problem with it as the rest of the UK, possibly more so as our public sector is somewhat bigger.

    Neil will be on shortly and point out once again it is anticipated that the share of our GDP subsidising such pensions is projected to fall. This is because of the sort of reforms that the Coalition has brought in including later retirement, higher contributions from the staff themselves and moves towards average pensions. But very little of this will hurt the golden generation now in their late 50s and desperately looking for the exit before the gates are shut.

    Dead right.

    I could add to the woe, the utter disaster which is the 2004 Pension Act which has copper bottomed and gold plated guarantees for anyone lucky enough to be in a defined benefit scheme at that point and never changes jobs ( unless joining the public sector ) till they retire, but at the price of the nigh on total collapse of the defined benefit pension in the private sector.

    A text book classic of making something so risky and difficult via regulation that people simply stop doing it, and a great example of the power of Government to ( how ever well intentioned ) screw up big time at vast cost to millions of its citizens,
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