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  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Mr. Neil, I stand partially corrected.

    Sounds like they're 'assessing' whether anything wrong happened. It's hardly Gene Hunt.

    Surely the first stage to taking action is assessing whether a crime has been committed?
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    DavidL said:

    Neil said:

    Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

    She did a debate with Nicola Sturgeon which it is very difficult to comment about without sounding somewhat sexist. On the east coast we used to talk about fishwives before that became non PC.
    It is surely OK to take the mickey out of women as long as one also accepts its OK to take the mickey out of men. It's surely OK to allow men to take the mickey out of women just so long as women are allowed to take the mickey out of men.
    Perhaps the phrase should now be 'take the Malky'...

    Not sure what the male (real and perjorative) equivalent of a fishwife might be... 'barrowboy' perhaps.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    edited August 2014
    GINS1138 The Tories have probably already won over the rightleaning LDs, 13% of 2010 LDs are now voting Tory according to yougov yesterday, more than the 3% of 2010 Tories now voting Labour or the 3% of 2010 Tories voting LD, Green or SNP/PC. Add in the 18% of 2010 Tories voting UKIP now and you get to a Tory total of around 39%+, almost certainly enough to put Cameron back in Downing Street, if not necessarily producing a Tory majority http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/gvdufgez3p/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-210814.pdf
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Neil, it's not terribly complicated. This isn't a subtle fraud case. People were distributing literature to try and promote an organisation that crucifies children.
  • malcolmg said:

    It must be the first time she has spoken in the campaign

    Murphy on his tour, Labour and BT proving very popular.............. not for the faint hearted
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPL1tbjD_lM&feature=youtu.be

    This in Labour heartlands as well

    Says a lot about Scottish Social-Democracy and why English Liberalism should support the independence campaign. Better-apart!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    edited August 2014

    DavidL said:

    Neil said:

    Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

    She did a debate with Nicola Sturgeon which it is very difficult to comment about without sounding somewhat sexist. On the east coast we used to talk about fishwives before that became non PC.
    It is surely OK to take the mickey out of women as long as one also accepts its OK to take the mickey out of men. It's surely OK to allow men to take the mickey out of women just so long as women are allowed to take the mickey out of men.
    Perhaps the phrase should now be 'take the Malky'...

    Not sure what the male (real and perjorative) equivalent of a fishwife might be... 'barrowboy' perhaps.
    You may be getting "the malky"

    The Malky ( Malkie)
    A seriously bad thing to happen to you. If you get 'malkied' then you will have been thumped raucously about the body in a fashion not dissimilar to that of a poor unfortunate referee who has bad mouthed the captain of a particularly large rugby squad.

    "Ah geid him the malky an he stood there flat out on the grun."

    "Ho! Come back here till Ah malky ya, ya bass!"
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,144
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Malcolmg At least Murphy is getting on his soapbox, have yet to see Salmond and Sturgeon and Swinney do the same. Indeed, it was the soapbox which arguably helped win it for Major in 1992, could it do the same for BT?

    What a joke, did you actually look at it, did you see how popular labour and Better Together are, in their heartlands as well.
    Salmond and Sturgeon are speaking most nights at public meetings , they do not resemble this however.
    Where in England do you live and why did you expect to see them speaking there?
    Murphy is a creepy hypocrite, but I'll give him credit for being one of the few SLABers willing to meet the public - not quite the reaction he was hoping for I think. In the two years of the campaign SLAB haven't held one single open meeting in Glasgow, and they've pulled out of several joint debates. They know they're getting destroyed in the West of Scotland by the Tory association and their only tactic is to keep their heads down and hope the electorate won't notice.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Mr. Neil, it's not terribly complicated.

    Farage pointed out on Friday the tiptoe approach our politicians are adopting to terrorism, after decades of political correctness. Desperate not to offend. Desperate not to inflame.
  • Seemingly, the UKPollingReport Polling Average was last updated TEN DAYS AGO on 13 August.
    Even if Anthony Wells is currently on holiday, one would have thought that someone would have been deputed to keep this reasonably up to date, if only to maintain the site's credibility.
    After all, it surely shouldn't take a modest laptop more than half a dozen nanoseconds to perform the calculations.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Roger said:

    IA.



    The most accurate observation so far. I can't recall a time of bigotry racism and hypocrisy like it. While the media are crucifying a football manager for a few ill chosen text messages we have Farage being hailed as the Messiah.


    Malky McKay does seem to have made himself unemployable by his rather un PC texts and emails.

    It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

    If he had made his homophobic and misogynist racist rants against Israel and the kaffirs he would have been cheered...
    I wonder how many of the people condemning him have never told a racist or anti-gay joke in private?

    By all means people should expect criticism for expressing unpleasant opinions in private. It bothers me when these are treated as disciplinary matters, or worse, criminal.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,970
    edited August 2014
    Re Malky McKay. It does seem odd that a firm of lawyers Carter Ruck should be able to gain access to someone's house in order to carry out a search and then give the information found to a national newspaper.

    Even more so when the information found didn't belong to the person whose house was searched Firstly there's the copyright infringement and secondly there's the question of a firm of lawyers taking on the roll of the police.

    I suppose when you have the kind of money the owner of Cardiff City has you can buy whatever sort of justice you need.

    Carter Ruck and co raiding a house and reading 100,000 emails and a similar number of texts must have cost a small fortune.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    MalcolmG Complimentary as ever I see, however given an MSP recently stated he saw Salmond in the Scottish Parliament restaurant and 'upon sitting down, the First Minister regally held out his hands. An accompanying flunkey whipped out some hand sanitiser' perhaps not so far from the truth. http://nuzzel.com/story/08112014/medium/after_hubris_syndrome_nemesis
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited August 2014
    I suspect this is what the Malky Mackay affair is all about, isn't it? moral relativism? berating people for private conversations when others are beheading journalists in Syria? executing 'informers' without trial in Gaza?

    The Westboro Baptist Church came in for some criticism on a C4 program last night. They are unpleasant people, I grant you. But they aren't shooting children.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Neil said:


    It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

    it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.
    Surely people are allowed to hold views and are allowed to express them but then they must then accept to be judged by others on them?
    How did these text messages come to light? I suppose one of the two parties could have revealled them... but otherwise how did they become known. I am not sure that texting someone strictly counts as being something done in private.

    I don't know the law in this area very well, but if texts and emails are sent on devices owned by your employer maybe you have a duty of care to them and they have a right to monitor your correspondence?

    Cardiff City's owner (who was being sued for millions by Mackay) obtained a High Court order to raid his home and obtained vast amounts of information. Mackay subsequently dropped the suit and issued a grovelling apology. Cardiff passed the information obtained to the FA who are investigating. There could well be more to this than just racism, anti-semitism and homophobia.
    The investigation will most likely show transfer dealings in a fairly unpleasant light!

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,144
    edited August 2014

    Sean_F said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    Around 500 of the 2000 Isis jihadists are British, but labour mp reckons it's more like 2000

    How did we let it come to this?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730602/The-homegrown-jihadists-fighting-ISIS-How-one-four-foreigners-signed-Islamic-State-British-half-ALREADY-UK.html

    Compare and contrast the International Brigades (largely communist iirc) who went to fight in the Spanish civil war.
    Couldn't really care less about that sorry

    All I would say is the British government didn't import those people en masse despite warnings trouble would eventually arise. Well we've got it now.

    Why you have to play devils advocate I don't know. You sound like an apologist
    You're missing my point, you were saying how did we let it come to this.

    I was pointing to the most recent historical example I could think of a similar thing taking place.
    Whatever side people supported in the Spanish civil war, neither side wanted to take the country back to the Seventh century.

    There must have been British people who committed atrocities in Spain, but we didn't have to fear them coming back and committing acts of terrorism here.
    The UK government were certainly worried about what returning lefties (or premature anti-Fascists) would get up to.
    Like writing a couple of anti Communist polemics?
    I know you think you're making a fabulously clever point, but what you really meant to say is that a life long socialist wrote a couple of anti-Stalinist and anti-totalitarian polemics.
  • Neil said:


    It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

    it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.
    Surely people are allowed to hold views and are allowed to express them but then they must then accept to be judged by others on them?
    How did these text messages come to light? I suppose one of the two parties could have revealled them... but otherwise how did they become known. I am not sure that texting someone strictly counts as being something done in private.

    I don't know the law in this area very well, but if texts and emails are sent on devices owned by your employer maybe you have a duty of care to them and they have a right to monitor your correspondence?

    Cardiff City's owner (who was being sued for millions by Mackay) obtained a High Court order to raid his home and obtained vast amounts of information. Mackay subsequently dropped the suit and issued a grovelling apology. Cardiff passed the information obtained to the FA who are investigating. There could well be more to this than just racism, anti-semitism and homophobia.

    Is raid the right word here? Are we talking about discovery? That would seem more likely if this was/is a civil case. I guess that Tan could have asked for immediate action on the basis that there was a danger that evidence central to his case might be destroyed.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Neil said:

    Owen Paterson will be eyeing a leadership bid too.

    He better get someone else to organise it because if it was down to him it would be a disaster.
    Speaking as someone who is broadly right wing - certainly right of centre - I can well understand why the Right are so angry.
    All what are regarded as right wing polititians are so pathetically stupid and have let the Right down oh so badly.
    Redwood Davies Fox et al... what a set of plonkers. If you wanted to invent a stupid right wing polititian to do and say stupid dumb things and discredit their views you could not invent a better lot. They are given opportunities and then go out of theor way to blow it.
    You can go right back to Enoch, not that he was necessarily 'right wing', and Ridley. Time and again they put their foot in it and are thus lost to any practical use. Tebbit is just as bad since he retired into senility and endless attempts to undermine the tory cause.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited August 2014
    Suzanne Evans ‏@SuzanneEvans1 1h
    Disgraceful decision - pack 'em in, pile 'em high & sod any new infrastructure: Merton Y:Cube housing blocks approved http://www.wimbledonguardian.co.uk/news/11427508.First_ever_Y_Cube_housing_block_to_be_built_on_Merton_street_after_plans_approved/?ref=twtrec

    "Thats nice!"
    What will they think of next instead of building proper housing?
    And whats more approved by Boris!
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:


    It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

    it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.
    Surely people are allowed to hold views and are allowed to express them but then they must then accept to be judged by others on them?
    How did these text messages come to light? I suppose one of the two parties could have revealled them... but otherwise how did they become known. I am not sure that texting someone strictly counts as being something done in private.

    I don't know the law in this area very well, but if texts and emails are sent on devices owned by your employer maybe you have a duty of care to them and they have a right to monitor your correspondence?

    Cardiff City's owner (who was being sued for millions by Mackay) obtained a High Court order to raid his home and obtained vast amounts of information. Mackay subsequently dropped the suit and issued a grovelling apology. Cardiff passed the information obtained to the FA who are investigating. There could well be more to this than just racism, anti-semitism and homophobia.

    Is raid the right word here? Are we talking about discovery? That would seem more likely if this was/is a civil case. I guess that Tan could have asked for immediate action on the basis that there was a danger that evidence central to his case might be destroyed.

    It was reported as occurring at dawn. I think the press is contractually obliged to report any activity happening at dawn as a "raid".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    edited August 2014
    TUD There is a slight difference being holding a public meeting of likely supporters as Yes are doing, and engaging with all comers in the high street as Murphy is doing.
    In any case, far from being 'destroyed' in the West of Scotland, No has a 55-45 lead in Western Scotland according to the latest ICM Poll http://www.icmresearch.com/data/media/pdf/2014_aug_scotlandpoll9.pdf
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:


    It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

    it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.
    Surely people are allowed to hold views and are allowed to express them but then they must then accept to be judged by others on them?
    How did these text messages come to light? I suppose one of the two parties could have revealled them... but otherwise how did they become known. I am not sure that texting someone strictly counts as being something done in private.

    I don't know the law in this area very well, but if texts and emails are sent on devices owned by your employer maybe you have a duty of care to them and they have a right to monitor your correspondence?

    Cardiff City's owner (who was being sued for millions by Mackay) obtained a High Court order to raid his home and obtained vast amounts of information. Mackay subsequently dropped the suit and issued a grovelling apology. Cardiff passed the information obtained to the FA who are investigating. There could well be more to this than just racism, anti-semitism and homophobia.
    The investigation will most likely show transfer dealings in a fairly unpleasant light!

    And possibly even shed some light on that Cardiff / Crystal Palace spat from last season.

  • Roger said:

    ...the roll of the police.

    Is this a subliminal advert for a Danish bacon buttie...? :)
  • Roger said:

    Re Malky McKay. It does seem odd that a firm of lawyers Carter Ruck should be able to gain access to someone's house in order to carry out a search and then give the information found to a national newspaper.

    Even more so when the information found didn't belong to the person whose house was searched Firstly there's the copyright infringement and secondly there's the question of a firm of lawyers taking on the roll of the police.

    I suppose when you have the kind of money the owner of Cardiff City has you can buy whatever sort of justice you need.

    Carter Ruck and co raiding a house and reading 100,000 emails and a similar number of texts must have cost a small fortune.

    I am not saying it happened in this case but one weapon open to very rich parties in a civil suit is to rack up their own costs. The other party then needs to factor in the possibility of having to pay these if it ends up losing.

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012



    As my good friend tim used to regularly state immigrants are better qualified than the native population. The current UK approach is to let the market do its work but in this instance the market is failing the economy as a whole.

    If our education system had worked properly, we wouldn't need to rig the market..
    Education and Welfare systems
    (Thats me being right wing BTW)
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Is Southam Observer about? If so he might like to read a interesting piece into today's Telegraph about how globalisation is leading to concentrations of wealth that are incompatible with continued democracy.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100027963/nobel-gurus-fear-globalisation-is-going-horribly-wrong-technical/

    "It is not a Left/Right issue. It is common sense. Democracies will not last long with the wealth concentration of pre-modern despotisms."
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    IA.



    The most accurate observation so far. I can't recall a time of bigotry racism and hypocrisy like it. While the media are crucifying a football manager for a few ill chosen text messages we have Farage being hailed as the Messiah.


    Malky McKay does seem to have made himself unemployable by his rather un PC texts and emails.

    It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

    If he had made his homophobic and misogynist racist rants against Israel and the kaffirs he would have been cheered...
    I wonder how many of the people condemning him have never told a racist or anti-gay joke in private?

    By all means people should expect criticism for expressing unpleasant opinions in private. It bothers me when these are treated as disciplinary matters, or worse, criminal.
    Let he without sin cast the first stone

    Seems like PB people are unusually pure and qualified to throw them!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG Complimentary as ever I see, however given an MSP recently stated he saw Salmond in the Scottish Parliament restaurant and 'upon sitting down, the First Minister regally held out his hands. An accompanying flunkey whipped out some hand sanitiser' perhaps not so far from the truth. http://nuzzel.com/story/08112014/medium/after_hubris_syndrome_nemesis

    Dear Dear, you are more pathetic than Scott, away and play with your dolls.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Totalitarian societies always seek to deny the existence of the personal and private spheres.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    HYUFD said:

    TUD There is a slight difference being holding a public meeting of likely supporters as Yes are doing, and engaging with all comers in the high street as Murphy is doing.
    In any case, far from being 'destroyed' in the West of Scotland, No has a 55-45 lead in Western Scotland according to the latest ICM Poll http://www.icmresearch.com/data/media/pdf/2014_aug_scotlandpoll9.pdf

    Yes the reality on the street showed how accurate the poll is , definitely looked like NO supporters were in the majority for sure.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    HurstLlama I would have thought the lifting out of poverty of millions in the developing world was less likely to lead to instability
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

    Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

    In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

    you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

    meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.
    'respectable racist'?
    What we have is UKIP and Farage with his dog whistles making racism respectable--- which of course it never is.
    Is it...?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,144
    edited August 2014
    HYUFD said:

    TUD There is a slight difference being holding a public meeting of likely supporters as Yes are doing, and engaging with all comers in the high street as Murphy is doing.
    In any case, far from being 'destroyed' in the West of Scotland, No has a 55-45 lead in Western Scotland according to the latest ICM Poll http://www.icmresearch.com/data/media/pdf/2014_aug_scotlandpoll9.pdf

    You appear not to have read my post. An open meeting is just that, open to the public of all & no opinions; Bettetogether and SLAB have not held such meetings in Glasgow, Yes has held hundreds. You're also conflating No & SLAB, not the point I was making.

    2/10 for reading & comprehension.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    HYUFD said:

    HurstLlama I would have thought the lifting out of poverty of millions in the developing world was less likely to lead to instability

    It can lead to instability in rich countries, even as poor countries benefit.

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Looking at the YouGov published on Friday, (33/38/8/12/5) the 2010 VI (Con+LAB+LD: UKIP not identified) was 1485 (73.2%) votes out of a total sample of 2028.

    Of the 2028 only 20% was identified as DK + WNV. So the projected 80% turnout is far higher than the 65% of the 2010. So are YouGov hitting more of the VI than average, or are their respondents a bit more like Pbers? Does this disguise a larger number of people in the DK or WNV categories or a bit of both. If the DK is really larger then there is more to play for, for each Party.

    Of the 2010 VI, the DK are 10% of Cons, 7% of LAB and 15% of LD.

    In this poll, the Cons lost 92 of their 2010 votes to UKIP, LAB lost 19 and LDs 28.

    The total UKIP votes were 199, so 60 votes (30%) came from outside the 2010 VI (but may include some of the UKIP 2010GE of 3%.)

    If the Cons recapture just half of those 'lost' UKIP votes, then their VI in that poll would have increased by 2.8%.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    MalcolmG It is the 'silent majority' who will vote who count, not a vociferous mob of Yes campaigners. I seem to remember in 1992 Major was also constantly harassed by Labour and SWP supporters while doing his soap box tour, including frequent eggings, yet in the end it was he who had the last laugh!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Sean_F said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    Around 500 of the 2000 Isis jihadists are British, but labour mp reckons it's more like 2000

    How did we let it come to this?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730602/The-homegrown-jihadists-fighting-ISIS-How-one-four-foreigners-signed-Islamic-State-British-half-ALREADY-UK.html

    Compare and contrast the International Brigades (largely communist iirc) who went to fight in the Spanish civil war.
    Couldn't really care less about that sorry

    All I would say is the British government didn't import those people en masse despite warnings trouble would eventually arise. Well we've got it now.

    Why you have to play devils advocate I don't know. You sound like an apologist
    You're missing my point, you were saying how did we let it come to this.

    I was pointing to the most recent historical example I could think of a similar thing taking place.
    Whatever side people supported in the Spanish civil war, neither side wanted to take the country back to the Seventh century.

    There must have been British people who committed atrocities in Spain, but we didn't have to fear them coming back and committing acts of terrorism here.
    The UK government were certainly worried about what returning lefties (or premature anti-Fascists) would get up to.
    Like writing a couple of anti Communist polemics?
    I know you think you're making a fabulously clever point, but what you really meant to say is that a life long socialist wrote a couple of anti-Stalinist and anti-totalitarian polemics.
    Communists sympathetic to the Republicans in Spain were sufficiently motivated to go deep undercover in the British Establishment. I think ISIS are not that subtle or long term.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    HYUFD said:

    HurstLlama I would have thought the lifting out of poverty of millions in the developing world was less likely to lead to instability

    I think the problem is not that very poor people in the developing world, who mostly do not live in western-style liberal democracies, are getting out of poverty but with working people who do not getting any richer than they were 40 years ago, whilst a small number of people pile up the cash in ever increasing amounts.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    I do not use the word "banter" in my usual discourse but I understand it is usually accompanied by "light-hearted".The problem for those who continue to use the word is to distinguish between what is,and what is not,"light-hearted".There is an real problem of systemic racism and homophobia in football which are no laughing matter.Remember Justin Fashanu?
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    HYUFD said:

    GINS1138 The Tories have probably already won over the rightleaning LDs, 13% of 2010 LDs are now voting Tory according to yougov yesterday, more than the 3% of 2010 Tories now voting Labour or the 3% of 2010 Tories voting LD, Green or SNP/PC. Add in the 18% of 2010 Tories voting UKIP now and you get to a Tory total of around 39%+, almost certainly enough to put Cameron back in Downing Street, if not necessarily producing a Tory majority http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/gvdufgez3p/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-210814.pdf

    I would expect UKIP supporters, if they are to switch their vote, will be more likely to switch it to the Conservatives due to the closeness of policies rather than any other party. Prior voting is interesting but tells you only so much.

    Also remember that the Conservatives want more ex Labour voters going UKIP. Demonizing Labour for their record on immigration and the economy will not only attract voters to the Conservatives but also away from Labour, whether to not voting or UKIP it doesn't matter.

    The Lib Dem Labour switchers are irrelevant, they won't get Labour into the high 30s.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

    Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

    In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

    you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

    meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.
    'respectable racist'?
    What we have is UKIP and Farage with his dog whistles making racism respectable--- which of course it never is.
    Is it...?
    Sometimes it's ok

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/hackney-heroine-london-belongs-to-all-of-us-not-just-those-who-can-pay-5-for-a-cappuccino-9651858.html
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HurstLlama I would have thought the lifting out of poverty of millions in the developing world was less likely to lead to instability

    It can lead to instability in rich countries, even as poor countries benefit.

    Huih? 'it'? 0,7% of GDP quite a bit which is spent at home anyway? 'it' will bring instability?
    What about the other 99.3%
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    TUD Anyone who can be bothered to give up a summer evening to attend a public meeting organised by the Yes campaign is leaning towards independence in all likelihood anyway. However all voters, Yes, No or not yet sure go shopping in the High Street so Murphy was meeting a broader cross-section.

    You seemed to suggest the SLab campaign was hurting the No campaign, the poll showed there was little evidence for that in Western Scotland, I would assume you were not talking about the SLab prospects for Holyrood 2016?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    HYUFD said:

    HurstLlama I would have thought the lifting out of poverty of millions in the developing world was less likely to lead to instability

    I think the problem is not that very poor people in the developing world, who mostly do not live in western-style liberal democracies, are getting out of poverty but with working people who do not getting any richer than they were 40 years ago, whilst a small number of people pile up the cash in ever increasing amounts.
    Increasingly the difference in the world is not that between rich and poor countries, but rich and poor people within countries.

    The super rich and middle classes live similar lives in London, Moscow, Sandton and Bombay, while the poor fight over scraps in all of these places.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Neil said:

    Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

    It must be the first time she has spoken in the campaign

    Murphy on his tour, Labour and BT proving very popular.............. not for the faint hearted
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPL1tbjD_lM&feature=youtu.be

    This in Labour heartlands as well
    The physical ugliness of the YESNP supporters bleating " Red Tory Out " is remarkable. I've never seen a more repulsive rabble.

    You mean the labourtories obviously , the Tories little helpers are not too popular. Good to see that it is happening in their heartlands as well nowadays.
    Since Salmond is a hopeless debater, YESNP supporters at Monday's event should follow the example of the gargoyles in Motherwell and chant " Red Tory Out !" whenever Darling speaks.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    HYUFD said:

    MalcolmG It is the 'silent majority' who will vote who count, not a vociferous mob of Yes campaigners. I seem to remember in 1992 Major was also constantly harassed by Labour and SWP supporters while doing his soap box tour, including frequent eggings, yet in the end it was he who had the last laugh!

    Excuses , excuses , excuses. The silent majority as you put it seem to also be leaning the same way, but your support from England will encourage NO I am sure.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    isam said:

    These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

    Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

    In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

    you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

    meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.
    'respectable racist'?
    What we have is UKIP and Farage with his dog whistles making racism respectable--- which of course it never is.
    Is it...?
    Sometimes it's ok

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/hackney-heroine-london-belongs-to-all-of-us-not-just-those-who-can-pay-5-for-a-cappuccino-9651858.html
    Or indeed the attacks on Cameron's and Osborne's backgrounds.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Sean_F said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    Around 500 of the 2000 Isis jihadists are British, but labour mp reckons it's more like 2000

    How did we let it come to this?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730602/The-homegrown-jihadists-fighting-ISIS-How-one-four-foreigners-signed-Islamic-State-British-half-ALREADY-UK.html

    Compare and contrast the International Brigades (largely communist iirc) who went to fight in the Spanish civil war.
    Couldn't really care less about that sorry

    All I would say is the British government didn't import those people en masse despite warnings trouble would eventually arise. Well we've got it now.

    Why you have to play devils advocate I don't know. You sound like an apologist
    You're missing my point, you were saying how did we let it come to this.

    I was pointing to the most recent historical example I could think of a similar thing taking place.
    Whatever side people supported in the Spanish civil war, neither side wanted to take the country back to the Seventh century.

    There must have been British people who committed atrocities in Spain, but we didn't have to fear them coming back and committing acts of terrorism here.
    The UK government were certainly worried about what returning lefties (or premature anti-Fascists) would get up to.
    Like writing a couple of anti Communist polemics?
    I know you think you're making a fabulously clever point, but what you really meant to say is that a life long socialist wrote a couple of anti-Stalinist and anti-totalitarian polemics.
    The only thing you know is what you read not what I think. I have never (knowingly) made a 'fabulouly clever point' in my entire life.
    You have simply put down in a great many words what I used a shorthand for.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,970
    Isam

    "That's an outrageous slur, I've never once said anything racist I suggest you take it back."

    Are you being ironic?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HurstLlama I would have thought the lifting out of poverty of millions in the developing world was less likely to lead to instability

    It can lead to instability in rich countries, even as poor countries benefit.

    Huih? 'it'? 0,7% of GDP quite a bit which is spent at home anyway? 'it' will bring instability?
    What about the other 99.3%
    Globalisation, that is.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,452

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Neil said:

    Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

    It must be the first time she has spoken in the campaign

    Murphy on his tour, Labour and BT proving very popular.............. not for the faint hearted
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPL1tbjD_lM&feature=youtu.be

    This in Labour heartlands as well
    The physical ugliness of the YESNP supporters bleating " Red Tory Out " is remarkable. I've never seen a more repulsive rabble.

    You mean the labourtories obviously , the Tories little helpers are not too popular. Good to see that it is happening in their heartlands as well nowadays.
    Since Salmond is a hopeless debater, YESNP supporters at Monday's event should follow the example of the gargoyles in Motherwell and chant " Red Tory Out !" whenever Darling speaks.

    Salmond may be many things, but he is not a hopeless debater. Before the first debate, the mood seemed to be that he would wallop Darling, which was a great bit of expectation management by the No team.

    Immediately after the debate, the consensus generally seemed to be that Darling had edged it, but not by much. Over the last couple of weeks this consensus has slowly evolved into a massive win for Darling, possibly because he had not been expected to do well.

    Expect the shoe to be on the other foot for the second debate: people will be expecting Darling to win handsomely. I'm not sure Salmond will let him.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    IA.



    The most accurate observation so far. I can't recall a time of bigotry racism and hypocrisy like it. While the media are crucifying a football manager for a few ill chosen text messages we have Farage being hailed as the Messiah.


    Malky McKay does seem to have made himself unemployable by his rather un PC texts and emails.

    It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

    If he had made his homophobic and misogynist racist rants against Israel and the kaffirs he would have been cheered...
    I wonder how many of the people condemning him have never told a racist or anti-gay joke in private?

    By all means people should expect criticism for expressing unpleasant opinions in private. It bothers me when these are treated as disciplinary matters, or worse, criminal.
    At least one of the messages was sent not just to his mate/sporting director, but to cardiff staff generally (the "black monopoly board" where all the spaces were "go to jail"). That's not private.

    The personal and professional lines might be blurred in the other messages depending on how they were sent (although given they were explicitly about work between work colleagues they'd still be problematic to say the least).

    But sending racist stuff to work colleagues, not a leg to stand on.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited August 2014
    ''The super rich and middle classes live similar lives in London, Moscow, Sandton and Bombay, while the poor fight over scraps in all of these places.''

    Hmmm....are you claiming there is no difference in circumstances between 'the poor' of Britain and the poor of Bombay??

    Do the poor of Bombay and Moscow get free good quality healthcare? state pensions? housing benefit? job seekers allowances? (to name but four).
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    isam said:

    These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

    Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

    In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

    you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

    meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.
    'respectable racist'?
    What we have is UKIP and Farage with his dog whistles making racism respectable--- which of course it never is.
    Is it...?
    Sometimes it's ok

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/hackney-heroine-london-belongs-to-all-of-us-not-just-those-who-can-pay-5-for-a-cappuccino-9651858.html
    Lets get down to the nitty gritty of our Hackney Heroine, what she says is mostly bollocks:

    LoVanessa14 days ago
    I personally love the changes in Hackney, I don't feel like the changes have anything to do with race at all..
    I'm a black 22 year old female who spends a lot of time in Dalston, Shoreditch and the likes for work and nights out...

    As a student I don't really have that much money but I can't say that's ever stopped me from having a good time there and I don't feel at all alienated by any of the changes.

    The bars and clubs on Kingsland road that she mentions in the Telegraph article are actually some of the most ethnically diverse clubs I've been to which is exactly why I love going to them.

    Growing up in London I've always felt most at home in areas where I can see a good equal mix of different people, different races, different classes, people with different interests and that's exactly how Hackney looks to me these days.

    Maybe I'm just lucky and I've been going to the right places but the Dalston/Shoreditch to me has a growing community vibe, and anything/anyone goes attitude and I definitely think that's a good thing!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    SeanF/HurstLlama Even as poorer countries grow, incomes in the developed world will still be higher by 2050 than they are now
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Roger said:

    Isam

    "That's an outrageous slur, I've never once said anything racist I suggest you take it back."

    Are you being ironic?

    In your case never Roger, a champagne socialist with at least two acknowledged properties, one abroad, living the high life, working and being paid loadsadosh using sinister method of repetitive advertising. to flog crap to the poles
    My isn't it wonderful to look down on the unwashed.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,144


    I have never (knowingly) made a 'fabulouly clever point' in my entire life.

    I can only speak for what you write here, but fair enough.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    FalseFlag Indeed, many working class Labour voters are not keen on Ed Miliband, most of the left-leaning LDs he won back to Labour would probably have voted for Kinnock in 1992 anyway
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited August 2014

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Neil said:

    Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

    It must be the first time she has spoken in the campaign

    Murphy on his tour, Labour and BT proving very popular.............. not for the faint hearted
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPL1tbjD_lM&feature=youtu.be

    This in Labour heartlands as well
    The physical ugliness of the YESNP supporters bleating " Red Tory Out " is remarkable. I've never seen a more repulsive rabble.

    You mean the labourtories obviously , the Tories little helpers are not too popular. Good to see that it is happening in their heartlands as well nowadays.
    Since Salmond is a hopeless debater, YESNP supporters at Monday's event should follow the example of the gargoyles in Motherwell and chant " Red Tory Out !" whenever Darling speaks.

    Salmond may be many things, but he is not a hopeless debater. Before the first debate, the mood seemed to be that he would wallop Darling, which was a great bit of expectation management by the No team.

    Immediately after the debate, the consensus generally seemed to be that Darling had edged it, but not by much. Over the last couple of weeks this consensus has slowly evolved into a massive win for Darling, possibly because he had not been expected to do well.

    Expect the shoe to be on the other foot for the second debate: people will be expecting Darling to win handsomely. I'm not sure Salmond will let him.
    Salmond can't debate for toffee. He is regularly savaged by Lamont at FMQs and has to be saved from further mauling by the ex-SNP MSP Presiding Officer.
  • Is Southam Observer about? If so he might like to read a interesting piece into today's Telegraph about how globalisation is leading to concentrations of wealth that are incompatible with continued democracy.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100027963/nobel-gurus-fear-globalisation-is-going-horribly-wrong-technical/

    "It is not a Left/Right issue. It is common sense. Democracies will not last long with the wealth concentration of pre-modern despotisms."

    That pretty much sums it up. From where I sit cash hoarding corporates and super rich individuals can either become part of the conversation or end up finding they have solutions imposed upon them. It's not a left/right issue, it's about sustaining the kind of societies in which rule of law, freedom of expression, respect for private property and so on endure. If people come to believe that such societies cannot deliver decent quality of life they will no longer have a stake in maintaing them. Then we all suffer. It sounds apocalyptic, but what is society except a means of coming together to improve collective outcomes.

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    FalseFlag said:

    HYUFD said:

    GINS1138 The Tories have probably already won over the rightleaning LDs, 13% of 2010 LDs are now voting Tory according to yougov yesterday, more than the 3% of 2010 Tories now voting Labour or the 3% of 2010 Tories voting LD, Green or SNP/PC. Add in the 18% of 2010 Tories voting UKIP now and you get to a Tory total of around 39%+, almost certainly enough to put Cameron back in Downing Street, if not necessarily producing a Tory majority http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/gvdufgez3p/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-210814.pdf

    I would expect UKIP supporters, if they are to switch their vote, will be more likely to switch it to the Conservatives due to the closeness of policies rather than any other party. Prior voting is interesting but tells you only so much.

    Also remember that the Conservatives want more ex Labour voters going UKIP. Demonizing Labour for their record on immigration and the economy will not only attract voters to the Conservatives but also away from Labour, whether to not voting or UKIP it doesn't matter.

    The Lib Dem Labour switchers are irrelevant, they won't get Labour into the high 30s.
    It would appear that the 2010 LD>LAB switchers in Friday YG are worth about 7% to LAB VI.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    edited August 2014
    Malcolm G Well according to the Independent's latest poll of polls it is 57-43 to No excluding DK's and if anything the rowdy aggressive Yes campaigners trying to drown out Murphy are likely to lead undecideds towards the No camp in even greater numbers, especially women who dislike aggressive politics. If Darling is as calm, focused and hard hitting on Monday as he was in the First Debate and Salmond comes across as too smug then I can see the final nail for the Yes campaign being nailed by the end of the week with less than a month to go!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    taffys said:

    ''The super rich and middle classes live similar lives in London, Moscow, Sandton and Bombay, while the poor fight over scraps in all of these places.''

    Hmmm....are you claiming there is no difference in circumstances between 'the poor' of Britain and the poor of Bombay??

    Do the poor of Bombay and Moscow get free good quality healthcare? state pensions? housing benefit? job seekers allowances? (to name but four).

    No, that is clearly not true.

    What I mean is that the rich are increasingly similar, and the poor increasingly marginalised but the anger is mis-directed. In Soweto they resent Zimbabwean immigrants, in Cairo they seek millenialist religion, in China they are bought off with cheap finery. It serves the wealthy to keep the proles organised against each other.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    edited August 2014

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Neil said:

    Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

    It must be the first time she has spoken in the campaign

    Murphy on his tour, Labour and BT proving very popular.............. not for the faint hearted
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPL1tbjD_lM&feature=youtu.be

    This in Labour heartlands as well
    The physical ugliness of the YESNP supporters bleating " Red Tory Out " is remarkable. I've never seen a more repulsive rabble.

    You mean the labourtories obviously , the Tories little helpers are not too popular. Good to see that it is happening in their heartlands as well nowadays.
    Since Salmond is a hopeless debater, YESNP supporters at Monday's event should follow the example of the gargoyles in Motherwell and chant " Red Tory Out !" whenever Darling speaks.

    Salmond may be many things, but he is not a hopeless debater. Before the first debate, the mood seemed to be that he would wallop Darling, which was a great bit of expectation management by the No team.

    Immediately after the debate, the consensus generally seemed to be that Darling had edged it, but not by much. Over the last couple of weeks this consensus has slowly evolved into a massive win for Darling, possibly because he had not been expected to do well.

    Expect the shoe to be on the other foot for the second debate: people will be expecting Darling to win handsomely. I'm not sure Salmond will let him.
    Salmond can't debate for toffee. He is regularly savaged by Lamont at FMQs and has to be saved from further mauling by the ex-SNP MSP Presiding Officer.
    LOL Monica, you are obviously very stupid or have never ever watched First Minister's Questions. Trolling of the first order.

    PS, maybe you are really Lamont trying to keep yourself amused due to having little else to do.
  • We have a ComRes opinion poll in tomorrow’s Independent on Sunday, shared with the Sunday Mirror.

    Last month Labour had a three-point lead. This month we have resumed our Favourability Index, asking if people have a favourable or unfavourable view of:

    • five parties, including the Scottish National Party, now that we are into the final month of the referendum campaign;

    • five party leaders, including Alex Salmond;

    • independence for Scotland;

    • and we asked English and Welsh respondents if they had a favourable or unfavourable view of “Scottish people generally”, and Scottish respondents about their view of “English people generally”.

    ......Election expectations

    ......Labour is likely to be in government after the general election next year
    The Conservatives are likely to be in government after the general election next year
    The Liberal Democrats are likely to be in government after the general election next year

    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2014/08/23/poll-alert-46/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited August 2014

    HYUFD said:

    HurstLlama I would have thought the lifting out of poverty of millions in the developing world was less likely to lead to instability

    I think the problem is not that very poor people in the developing world, who mostly do not live in western-style liberal democracies, are getting out of poverty but with working people who do not getting any richer than they were 40 years ago, whilst a small number of people pile up the cash in ever increasing amounts.
    Increasingly the difference in the world is not that between rich and poor countries, but rich and poor people within countries.

    The super rich and middle classes live similar lives in London, Moscow, Sandton and Bombay, while the poor fight over scraps in all of these places.
    Indeed, Doc, and the middles classes are disappearing and with them the aspiration which, in many ways, has been the glue that has held modern societies together - why strive if life isn't going to get better for your children let alone you?.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    HYUFD said:

    Malcolm G Well according to the Independent's latest poll of polls it is 57-43 to No excluding DK's and if anything the rowdy aggressive Yes campaigners trying to drown out Murphy are likely to lead undecideds towards the No camp in even greater numbers, especially women who dislike aggressive politics. If Darling is as calm, focused and hard hitting on Monday as he was in the First Debate and Salmond comes across as too smug then I can see the final nail for the Yes campaign being nailed by the end of the week with less than a month to go!

    taking lots of dodgy polls over a long period is utter crap. They are supposedly snapshots of opinion when asked , and are only to a selective audience at that. Sticking them together is pathetic.
    Go look at some real polling :
    http://radicalindependence.org/2014/08/12/national-mass-canvass-2-results/?utm_content=buffera7024&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    HYUFD said:

    SeanF/HurstLlama Even as poorer countries grow, incomes in the developed world will still be higher by 2050 than they are now

    I'm not so sure. Parts of Europe are poorer than 10 years ago.

  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Neil said:

    Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

    It must be the first time she has spoken in the campaign

    Murphy on his tour, Labour and BT proving very popular.............. not for the faint hearted
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPL1tbjD_lM&feature=youtu.be

    This in Labour heartlands as well
    The physical ugliness of the YESNP supporters bleating " Red Tory Out " is remarkable. I've never seen a more repulsive rabble.

    You mean the labourtories obviously , the Tories little helpers are not too popular. Good to see that it is happening in their heartlands as well nowadays.
    Since Salmond is a hopeless debater, YESNP supporters at Monday's event should follow the example of the gargoyles in Motherwell and chant " Red Tory Out !" whenever Darling speaks.

    Salmond may be many things, but he is not a hopeless debater. Before the first debate, the mood seemed to be that he would wallop Darling, which was a great bit of expectation management by the No team.

    Immediately after the debate, the consensus generally seemed to be that Darling had edged it, but not by much. Over the last couple of weeks this consensus has slowly evolved into a massive win for Darling, possibly because he had not been expected to do well.

    Expect the shoe to be on the other foot for the second debate: people will be expecting Darling to win handsomely. I'm not sure Salmond will let him.
    Salmond can't debate for toffee. He is regularly savaged by Lamont at FMQs and has to be saved from further mauling by the ex-SNP MSP Presiding Officer.
    LOL Monica, you are obviously very stupid or have never ever watched First Minister's Questions. Trolling of the first order.

    PS, maybe you are really Lamont trying to keep yourself amused due to having little else to do.
    We'll see on Monday. I predict the two debates will follow the pattern seen in Farage vs Clegg. The first was a handy victory for Farage, the second saw Clegg demolished.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited August 2014
    HYUFD said:

    SeanF/HurstLlama Even as poorer countries grow, incomes in the developed world will still be higher by 2050 than they are now

    Higher for who? Did you read the article? In real terms wages for goods producing workers in the developed world have been stagnant since the early seventies. Why do you think that is going to change?
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Is Southam Observer about? If so he might like to read a interesting piece into today's Telegraph about how globalisation is leading to concentrations of wealth that are incompatible with continued democracy.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100027963/nobel-gurus-fear-globalisation-is-going-horribly-wrong-technical/

    "It is not a Left/Right issue. It is common sense. Democracies will not last long with the wealth concentration of pre-modern despotisms."

    That pretty much sums it up. From where I sit cash hoarding corporates and super rich individuals can either become part of the conversation or end up finding they have solutions imposed upon them. It's not a left/right issue, it's about sustaining the kind of societies in which rule of law, freedom of expression, respect for private property and so on endure. If people come to believe that such societies cannot deliver decent quality of life they will no longer have a stake in maintaing them. Then we all suffer. It sounds apocalyptic, but what is society except a means of coming together to improve collective outcomes.

    SO: That sounds a bit French Revolutionary, but it is mainly true and why most dictatorships fail eventually. However those ruled by a single dictator fail more easily and more quickly than thus ruled by an ideology (e.g. Communism/Stalinism/Maoism).

    However, there is another problem which seems to afflict all emerging/developing countries and that is when a new source of wealth is found e.g. oil and gas. (e.g Mexico, Nigeria, Angola etc).

    Suddenly the politicians who have been preaching for years of improved wealth for all and have been squirreling away WB loans into their Offshore accounts, have to deliver, as most of the population expect instant/improved wealth.

    It takes time to develop these new resources and even more time to improve infrastructure including health and education. Also the ruling elite, grows larger and tries to grab hold of a lot of this new wealth. But some of the towns improve and people flock to the towns from their subsistence economy in the countryside in search of assured jobs and wealth and often end up being little more than slaves to the new wealthy and educated.



  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    HYUFD said:

    HurstLlama I would have thought the lifting out of poverty of millions in the developing world was less likely to lead to instability

    I think the problem is not that very poor people in the developing world, who mostly do not live in western-style liberal democracies, are getting out of poverty but with working people who do not getting any richer than they were 40 years ago, whilst a small number of people pile up the cash in ever increasing amounts.
    Increasingly the difference in the world is not that between rich and poor countries, but rich and poor people within countries.

    The super rich and middle classes live similar lives in London, Moscow, Sandton and Bombay, while the poor fight over scraps in all of these places.
    Indeed, Doc, and the middles classes are disappearing and with them the aspiration which, in many ways, has been the glue that has held modern societies together - why strive if life isn't going to get better for your children let alone you?.
    It's very much in the long-term interests of capitalism that people should be able to better themselves.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    FoxTaffys Russia has unemployment benefits and social housing, Cuba probably has more accessible healthcare than the US, China has recently introduced a minimum income, even in India Congress was often doling out gifts to the poor.

    According to the OECD by 2050 the average Indian and Chinese could be ten times richer than they are now, indeed the average Chinese will be richer than most Westerners and only just behind the average American. Yet, the average Brit and American will still be twice as rich as they are now http://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=ENV/EPOC/WPCID(2012)6&docLanguage=En
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    edited August 2014
    HYUFD said:

    FoxTaffys Russia has unemployment benefits and social housing, Cuba probably has more accessible healthcare than the US, China has recently introduced a minimum income, even in India Congress was often doling out gifts to the poor.

    According to the OECD by 2050 the average Indian and Chinese could be ten times richer than they are now, indeed the average Chinese will be richer than most Westerners and only just behind the average American. Yet, the average Brit and American will still be twice as rich as they are now http://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=ENV/EPOC/WPCID(2012)6&docLanguage=En

    That seems over-optimistic all round, to me.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HurstLlama I would have thought the lifting out of poverty of millions in the developing world was less likely to lead to instability

    I think the problem is not that very poor people in the developing world, who mostly do not live in western-style liberal democracies, are getting out of poverty but with working people who do not getting any richer than they were 40 years ago, whilst a small number of people pile up the cash in ever increasing amounts.
    Increasingly the difference in the world is not that between rich and poor countries, but rich and poor people within countries.

    The super rich and middle classes live similar lives in London, Moscow, Sandton and Bombay, while the poor fight over scraps in all of these places.
    Indeed, Doc, and the middles classes are disappearing and with them the aspiration which, in many ways, has been the glue that has held modern societies together - why strive if life isn't going to get better for your children let alone you?.
    It's very much in the long-term interests of capitalism that people should be able to better themselves.
    Absolutely, and that is why the increasing concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands is becoming toxic to society as a whole.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited August 2014
    Off-topic: Another Cronie Blair vanity project becomes a joke:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28910662

    Those who voted for the to55er should hang their heads in shame....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,144


    Salmond can't debate for toffee. He is regularly savaged by Lamont at FMQs and has to be saved from further mauling by the ex-SNP MSP Presiding Officer.

    You mean this Johann Lamont?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsUkgtsYDSw
  • That pretty much sums it up. From where I sit cash hoarding corporates and super rich individuals can either become part of the conversation or end up finding they have solutions imposed upon them. It's not a left/right issue, it's about sustaining the kind of societies in which rule of law, freedom of expression, respect for private property and so on endure. If people come to believe that such societies cannot deliver decent quality of life they will no longer have a stake in maintaing them. Then we all suffer. It sounds apocalyptic, but what is society except a means of coming together to improve collective outcomes.

    A typical "to save the village we have to destroy it" argument, SO.
  • HYUFD said:

    HurstLlama I would have thought the lifting out of poverty of millions in the developing world was less likely to lead to instability

    I think the problem is not that very poor people in the developing world, who mostly do not live in western-style liberal democracies, are getting out of poverty but with working people who do not getting any richer than they were 40 years ago, whilst a small number of people pile up the cash in ever increasing amounts.
    Increasingly the difference in the world is not that between rich and poor countries, but rich and poor people within countries.

    The super rich and middle classes live similar lives in London, Moscow, Sandton and Bombay, while the poor fight over scraps in all of these places.

    I am not sure that's right. Middle class Indians have restricted access to many of the things, such as medicines, half-decent infrastructure and relatively corruption-free government that we all take for granted and everyday access to other stuff reserved here only for the very wealthy, such as live in servants. In China they are restricted as to what they can say, see and do, and about how many kids they can have. And so on.

  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    This article is what I've been saying all along. If the Conservative Party wins the General Election in 2015, it will be because of the normal swingback from Labour to Conservative, not from some sort of fictitious swingback from UKIP to Conservative. The UKIP vote will sort itself out - either by staying with UKIP, or by drifting back to all other parties (roughly equally) where it came from in the first place.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216


    Salmond can't debate for toffee. He is regularly savaged by Lamont at FMQs and has to be saved from further mauling by the ex-SNP MSP Presiding Officer.

    You mean this Johann Lamont?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsUkgtsYDSw
    You're sure you want to trade Andrew Neil video clips?

    The last time the mighty Eck spoke to him the Scottish tax payer ended up forking out tens of thousands of pounds to cover up the non-existence of Legal Advice Salmond claimed to have....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    FoxTaffys Russia has unemployment benefits and social housing, Cuba probably has more accessible healthcare than the US, China has recently introduced a minimum income, even in India Congress was often doling out gifts to the poor.

    According to the OECD by 2050 the average Indian and Chinese could be ten times richer than they are now, indeed the average Chinese will be richer than most Westerners and only just behind the average American. Yet, the average Brit and American will still be twice as rich as they are now http://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=ENV/EPOC/WPCID(2012)6&docLanguage=En

    That seems over-optimistic all round, to me.
    That would take Chinese GDP per head up to 68,000 USD in 2050, compared to 76,000 in the UK, and 96,000 in the US. All those numbers seem way too high to me.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    F1: no tip. Tempted by Rosberg for pole at 3.5 but the wet weather likely put me off:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/belgium-pre-qualifying.html
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Thanks to Yokel for his helpful response.

    Is Southam Observer about? If so he might like to read a interesting piece into today's Telegraph about how globalisation is leading to concentrations of wealth that are incompatible with continued democracy.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100027963/nobel-gurus-fear-globalisation-is-going-horribly-wrong-technical/

    "It is not a Left/Right issue. It is common sense. Democracies will not last long with the wealth concentration of pre-modern despotisms."

    Good piece. There's a genuine problem of which UKIP is one symptom (and it's not got much to do with 0.7% overseas aid, as some posters - not you - seem to think). Low-skilled working-class people in the west are losing out to globalisation plus the acceleration of technology, and they know that they're not getting a share of economic revival (as AEP's graph shows). Because they are a declining section of the population and many tend not to vote at all or vote for fringe parties if they do, they don't get much attention from mainstream parties - which of course is a vicious circle. If you asked a Democrat or Republican in the US if he'd rather target a middle-class suburb or a trailer park for votes, he'd always go for the suburb. But he can't then reasonably complain if the trailer park resident takes up with some extreme group.



  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564



    I am not saying it happened in this case but one weapon open to very rich parties in a civil suit is to rack up their own costs. The other party then needs to factor in the possibility of having to pay these if it ends up losing.

    There was a recent local incident in which a blogger had a lawyer's letter after he'd criticised the partner of a politician: the letter claimed that legal costs in preparing it had come to £1500 and asked him to cough up. The blogger, who has no significant money, effectively said "see you in court", and has heard nothing further. Regardless of the issues of the specific case, there's a reasonable question whether getting a lawyer to write a letter should really cost £1500.


    It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

    it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.
    I can hold whatever views like, but I can't express them in a public forum. Particularly when that group of people who are determined to be outraged can see them.

    Too many tweets make ..........
    I understood they were text messages though? If the guy holds these objectionable views, but never expresses them in public should he be excluded from working? Now that they are public its hard to see how anyone could employ him in a multicultural environment though, I guess
    I had this sort of issue locally when I found from a BNP leak that the chair of a local conservation group was a BNP member. As he'd not expressed any public views on anything except conservation, I decided it wasn't my business and I should carry on working with him. If he'd expressed nasty views in public, certainly not. Tweets are a grey area, but it's best to assume that anything you say electronically is potentially public.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    MalcolmG I prefer scientific polls to Yes canvass returns, I seem to remember Tory activists in 1997 saying how their canvass returns were better than expected and we all remember what happened there, but we will see on referendum night
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376



    ......Election expectations

    ......Labour is likely to be in government after the general election next year
    The Conservatives are likely to be in government after the general election next year
    The Liberal Democrats are likely to be in government after the general election next year

    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2014/08/23/poll-alert-46/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    That sounds a bit like ICM's wisdom index.

  • JohnLoony said:

    This article is what I've been saying all along. If the Conservative Party wins the General Election in 2015, it will be because of the normal swingback from Labour to Conservative, not from some sort of fictitious swingback from UKIP to Conservative. The UKIP vote will sort itself out - either by staying with UKIP, or by drifting back to all other parties (roughly equally) where it came from in the first place.

    The problem is this:

    OGH misses the fact - or fails to understand - that one of the two most successful parties of the late C20 were the Monster-Raving-Loonies (whose policies were implemented by the Thatcher/Major governments). Modern Tory-ism has become more liberal and less imperial: The fact that people of liberal views disagree with statist 'Social-Democracy' (essentially a parasitical state-sector feeding of the workers) escapes our Lib-Dhimmie host/EiC!

    Hence no comments about the MRL => Tory swingback...!
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    FoxTaffys Russia has unemployment benefits and social housing, Cuba probably has more accessible healthcare than the US, China has recently introduced a minimum income, even in India Congress was often doling out gifts to the poor.

    According to the OECD by 2050 the average Indian and Chinese could be ten times richer than they are now, indeed the average Chinese will be richer than most Westerners and only just behind the average American. Yet, the average Brit and American will still be twice as rich as they are now http://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=ENV/EPOC/WPCID(2012)6&docLanguage=En

    That seems over-optimistic all round, to me.
    That would take Chinese GDP per head up to 68,000 USD in 2050, compared to 76,000 in the UK, and 96,000 in the US. All those numbers seem way too high to me.
    I am in no way qualified to say whether those numbers are too high or not. However, even if they are accurate they are irrelevant because they don't say anything about how that wealth is distributed. Overall, GDP per head may well be twice as high as it is today, but if, for want of a better expression, the working class is in real terms no better off and the middle class continues to shrink, then the problems for society will have increased not gone away.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    test
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    Sean F According to the link I gave from the OECD it is true that some surprising results will be seen in 2050 eg Trinidad, Barbados, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Belarus, the Ukraine, Malaysia certainly China, Uruguay could be richer than Greece and Italy and Spain and New Zealand, a few maybe even richer even the UK and all will certainly be on the way to being 1st World Powers
  • That pretty much sums it up. From where I sit cash hoarding corporates and super rich individuals can either become part of the conversation or end up finding they have solutions imposed upon them. It's not a left/right issue, it's about sustaining the kind of societies in which rule of law, freedom of expression, respect for private property and so on endure. If people come to believe that such societies cannot deliver decent quality of life they will no longer have a stake in maintaing them. Then we all suffer. It sounds apocalyptic, but what is society except a means of coming together to improve collective outcomes.

    A typical "to save the village we have to destroy it" argument, SO.

    Partially deconstruct and rebuild, mindful all the time not to disturb the foundations. Or the village will be burned to the ground and another one entirely built that may be a whole lot uglier.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4641/isis-zionist-plot

    Dutch Official Calls ISIS "A Zionist Plot"
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    YOkel, does your last ipost suggest that ISIS will soon have air capability? As I undferstand it that’s been their big problem to date; they can’t protect their troops from air strikes.

    Secondly they appear to have taken a significant number of women and children as prisoners, who, it is alleged are being sold as slaves. Do we know where? And to whom?

    No, Assad has or should have got all his working air gear out of there a long time ago. Taqba is more a garrison base, a location for artillery these days. If it is lost then Assad loses an outpost castle.

    My understanding is that some are kept for the ISIS fighters, others 'educated'. Others I assume indeed are subject to people trafficking for cash but its very vague, with not a huge amount of investigation of it.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    SeanF That was at the most optimistic range of the 5 forecasts, but even at the lowest range the average Chinese will be about 5 times richer for instance
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    HurstLlama Yes you need to account for inflation, but nonetheless GDP per capita will still rise
  • GIN1138 said:



    ......Election expectations

    ......Labour is likely to be in government after the general election next year
    The Conservatives are likely to be in government after the general election next year
    The Liberal Democrats are likely to be in government after the general election next year

    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2014/08/23/poll-alert-46/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    That sounds a bit like ICM's wisdom index.

    Everybody wants to be an ARSE
  • I am in no way qualified to say whether those numbers are too high or not. However, even if they are accurate they are irrelevant because they don't say anything about how that wealth is distributed. Overall, GDP per head may well be twice as high as it is today, but if, for want of a better expression, the working class is in real terms no better off and the middle class continues to shrink, then the problems for society will have increased not gone away.

    Sshh!

    Any predictions for UK GDP (Nominal) will be [totally] dependent upon declining North-Sea Oil tax revenues. Given the forecast on Wiki we will be chasing Russian and German ass in 2050 (whilst the French and the Italians will be gazing at ours)!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    JohnLooney According to yougov 18% of 2010 Tories are voting UKIP now, and 13% of 2010 LDs are voting Tory as well as the 35% or so of 2010 LDs voting Labour, yet only 3% of 2010 Tories are now backing Labour
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    I am in no way qualified to say whether those numbers are too high or not. However, even if they are accurate they are irrelevant because they don't say anything about how that wealth is distributed. Overall, GDP per head may well be twice as high as it is today, but if, for want of a better expression, the working class is in real terms no better off and the middle class continues to shrink, then the problems for society will have increased not gone away.

    Sshh!

    Any predictions for UK GDP (Nominal) will be [totally] dependent upon declining North-Sea Oil tax revenues. Given the forecast on Wiki we will be chasing Russian and German ass in 2050 (whilst the French and the Italians will be gazing at ours)!
    Fracking?
This discussion has been closed.