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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Let’s end this lazy assumption that UKIP voters are just Tories on holiday

You read and see this all the time both inside the Westminster bubble and out of it. Ukip voters, so the pervasive narrative goes, are simply ex-CON voters who can, if Lynton Crosby plays his cards properly, be seduced back into the fold thus providing the blues with the platform to secure an overall majority next May.

Read the full story here

john_zims

How reliable are these Ashcroft polls as there is no historical evidence of their accuracy?

In 2010 Angus Reid was much lauded and we all remember how that ended.

Y0kel

Iraq: If there are any doubts that this isn't an internecine conflict and just ISIS against the World the last 24 hours have given all the evidence needed with Shia on Sunni and Sunni on Shia sectarian violence with what in effect have been massacres with ISIS nowhere to be seen.

The US has made its appeals to Sunni groups to turn on ISIS (there are half a dozen Sunni military factions) but though some of them have actually had territorial skirmishes in recent weeks with ISIS so far not one has signed up to the US/Iraqi government cause. Quite simply they bought the whole Awakening idea once before and got Maliki's sectarian government as a reward. They want significant concessions first.

In Syria on the other hand, ISIS appear to have effectively taken Taqba airbase from the exhausted Assad forces there. Countdown to US airstrikes in Syria is well on its way. Don't buy the bull about the highly sophisticated Assad air defence systems, its been well messed up during the conflict with huge gaps in coverage including in the Jordanian border region. The US quite happily sent choppers in without problem.

Y0kel

NickP from previous thread.

Funnily enough I posted maybe a month ago about ISIS funding and how the biggest source of funding was their own rackets and rather good at it they are too. The other night I mentioned why Mosul was so important practically and symbolically as one end of the Caliphate. One of those was indeed the cash and other stuff they got from the banks there. Its a major city so wasn't short of notes and other cash commodities.

Tracking of money flows is long underway but one problem you have is since much of their money is generated within the locales where they operate, equally comparatively little of the money transfers outside their zones of control so its not flowing through the International banking system where the intelligence services specialist accounting and banking teams can see it.

Y0kel

Test

CarlottaVance

On topic - fine, as long as we also end this lazy assumption that the 2010 Lib Dem voting "defectors" to Labour were Lib Dems in the first place.....

YOkel - as ever, thank you for your continued insight....

CarlottaVance

Meanwhile......

Tensions have erupted over Monday night's TV debate on independence, with the Yes and No camps locked in a furious battle over how many minutes Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond will be given to cross-examine each other.
......... behind the scenes a furious row erupted over the format of the BBC showdown. Better Together accused the First Minister's team of trying to dramatically cut the time set aside for interrogation. That charge was angrily denied by Yes Scotland sources, who described it as categorically untrue.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/tensions-rise-over-time-for-questions-from-leaders-in-tv-debate.25126971

Alex Salmond wanting to cut down the time Darling questions him for? Nah - doesn't sound remotely credible.....

blackburn63

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

OldKingCole

YOkel, does your last ipost suggest that ISIS will soon have air capability? As I undferstand it that’s been their big problem to date; they can’t protect their troops from air strikes.

Secondly they appear to have taken a significant number of women and children as prisoners, who, it is alleged are being sold as slaves. Do we know where? And to whom?

Innocent_Abroad

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

Alanbrooke

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

SouthamObserver

Non-voters have always looked like the biggest source of UKIP support, haven't they?

If I remember correctly turnout in 2010 was slightly up on - or at least not lower than - what it was in 2005. Thus, even allowing for some churn, at best a lot of UKIP supporters will not have voted for a long time. They are going to have to be very motivated to change their minds next year. UKIP is going to need very strong on the ground operations for that and the knowledge of how to deploy them properly.

Innocent_Abroad

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

Absolutely not. Consider the following two propositions:

(1) It is natural to prefer one's own children to other people's. (2) It is morally good to prefer one's own children to other people's.

If it is "posho" to see a difference between them, then I must plead guilty. If it is "posho" to think that anger is always unjustifiable, then I must plead guilty.

I do not regard "respectable racism" as an insult. I regard it as a natural extension of proposition (1).

I invite you, Alanbrooke, to let us know whether you think it is also something to be proud of, and if so, to give evidence from your choice of the world's great religious leaders or philosophers as to why your opinion is correct/

CarlottaVance

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

I've no doubt that that is how many UKIP supporters feel - but to lay the blame solely at the door of immigration is to miss the point - globalisation (and immigration) have broken down the barriers that previously protected low skilled workers in low value added jobs. An school leaver who joined Rolls Royce Engineering and now works on Trent engines has little to fear - his mate who went to work in a garage does. And stopping immigration will barely address that. Yes there is a HUGE problem - but to ascribe it to immigration is to miss the bigger picture and lay yourselves open to the charge of racism.

Ishmael_X

Slightly doubtful about this. given the extent to which dave is now The Great Satan to fruitcake kippers (see Guido's commenters) I imagine that a fair few who did vote tory in 2010, are in denial about it.now. Not a consolation for the tories of course since chnces of their returning to the fold if they feel that way are limited.

Alanbrooke

Innocent_Abroad said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

Absolutely not. Consider the following two propositions:

(1) It is natural to prefer one's own children to other people's. (2) It is morally good to prefer one's own children to other people's.

If it is "posho" to see a difference between them, then I must plead guilty. If it is "posho" to think that anger is always unjustifiable, then I must plead guilty.

I do not regard "respectable racism" as an insult. I regard it as a natural extension of proposition (1).

I invite you, Alanbrooke, to let us know whether you think it is also something to be proud of, and if so, to give evidence from your choice of the world's great religious leaders or philosophers as to why your opinion is correct/

posho twaddle. Did you study PPE ?

My comments stand, now be off with you , you cut price Hyacinth Bucket.

CarlottaVance

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

Absolutely not. Consider the following two propositions:

(1) It is natural to prefer one's own children to other people's. (2) It is morally good to prefer one's own children to other people's.

If it is "posho" to see a difference between them, then I must plead guilty. If it is "posho" to think that anger is always unjustifiable, then I must plead guilty.

I do not regard "respectable racism" as an insult. I regard it as a natural extension of proposition (1).

I invite you, Alanbrooke, to let us know whether you think it is also something to be proud of, and if so, to give evidence from your choice of the world's great religious leaders or philosophers as to why your opinion is correct/

posho twaddle. Did you study PPE ?.

Or better yet, "read"....

Alanbrooke

CarlottaVance said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

I've no doubt that that is how many UKIP supporters feel - but to lay the blame solely at the door of immigration is to miss the point - globalisation (and immigration) have broken down the barriers that previously protected low skilled workers in low value added jobs. An school leaver who joined Rolls Royce Engineering and now works on Trent engines has little to fear - his mate who went to work in a garage does. And stopping immigration will barely address that. Yes there is a HUGE problem - but to ascribe it to immigration is to miss the bigger picture and lay yourselves open to the charge of racism.

Certainly from a manufactruing sector perspective I'll go with BB.

Immigration IS the problem as our lesser skilled members of society are being displaced on the jobs ladder by better qualified people from overseas.

As my good friend tim used to regularly state immigrants are better qualified than the native population. The current UK approach is to let the market do its work but in this instance the market is failing the economy as a whole.

The low skilled we all moan about about need to be given prefernce to get in to starter jobs if they are to climb out of the benefits trap and if that means restricting immigtation so be it.

Innocent_Abroad

CarlottaVance said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

Absolutely not. Consider the following two propositions:

(1) It is natural to prefer one's own children to other people's. (2) It is morally good to prefer one's own children to other people's.

If it is "posho" to see a difference between them, then I must plead guilty. If it is "posho" to think that anger is always unjustifiable, then I must plead guilty.

I do not regard "respectable racism" as an insult. I regard it as a natural extension of proposition (1).

I invite you, Alanbrooke, to let us know whether you think it is also something to be proud of, and if so, to give evidence from your choice of the world's great religious leaders or philosophers as to why your opinion is correct/

posho twaddle. Did you study PPE ?.

Or better yet, "read"....

Guilty as charged.

Alanbrooke

CarlottaVance said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

Absolutely not. Consider the following two propositions:

(1) It is natural to prefer one's own children to other people's. (2) It is morally good to prefer one's own children to other people's.

If it is "posho" to see a difference between them, then I must plead guilty. If it is "posho" to think that anger is always unjustifiable, then I must plead guilty.

I do not regard "respectable racism" as an insult. I regard it as a natural extension of proposition (1).

I invite you, Alanbrooke, to let us know whether you think it is also something to be proud of, and if so, to give evidence from your choice of the world's great religious leaders or philosophers as to why your opinion is correct/

posho twaddle. Did you study PPE ?.

Or better yet, "read"....

LOL

snobs speak their own language. maybe that's why they can't communicate with the rest of us.

CarlottaVance

Innocent_Abroad said:

CarlottaVance said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

Absolutely not. Consider the following two propositions:

(1) It is natural to prefer one's own children to other people's. (2) It is morally good to prefer one's own children to other people's.

If it is "posho" to see a difference between them, then I must plead guilty. If it is "posho" to think that anger is always unjustifiable, then I must plead guilty.

I do not regard "respectable racism" as an insult. I regard it as a natural extension of proposition (1).

I invite you, Alanbrooke, to let us know whether you think it is also something to be proud of, and if so, to give evidence from your choice of the world's great religious leaders or philosophers as to why your opinion is correct/

posho twaddle. Did you study PPE ?.

Or better yet, "read"....

Guilty as charged.

Fen Poly or Cowley Tech?

dugarbandier

Alanbrooke said:

As my good friend tim used to regularly state immigrants are better qualified than the native population. The current UK approach is to let the market do its work but in this instance the market is failing the economy as a whole.

If our education system had worked properly, we wouldn't need to rig the market..

Innocent_Abroad

CarlottaVance said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

CarlottaVance said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

Absolutely not. Consider the following two propositions:

(1) It is natural to prefer one's own children to other people's. (2) It is morally good to prefer one's own children to other people's.

If it is "posho" to see a difference between them, then I must plead guilty. If it is "posho" to think that anger is always unjustifiable, then I must plead guilty.

I do not regard "respectable racism" as an insult. I regard it as a natural extension of proposition (1).

I invite you, Alanbrooke, to let us know whether you think it is also something to be proud of, and if so, to give evidence from your choice of the world's great religious leaders or philosophers as to why your opinion is correct/

posho twaddle. Did you study PPE ?.

Or better yet, "read"....

Guilty as charged.

Fen Poly or Cowley Tech?

It's not on offer at Fen Poly, or wasn't when I was young...

Alanbrooke

dugarbandier said:

Alanbrooke said:

As my good friend tim used to regularly state immigrants are better qualified than the native population. The current UK approach is to let the market do its work but in this instance the market is failing the economy as a whole.

If our education system had worked properly, we wouldn't need to rig the market..

Agree, and the other issue twinned with that is that employers don't do enough in work training to up skill their workforces. Though certainly within the manufacturing sector that is starting to change.

JosiasJessop

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

Absolutely not. Consider the following two propositions:

(1) It is natural to prefer one's own children to other people's. (2) It is morally good to prefer one's own children to other people's.

If it is "posho" to see a difference between them, then I must plead guilty. If it is "posho" to think that anger is always unjustifiable, then I must plead guilty.

I do not regard "respectable racism" as an insult. I regard it as a natural extension of proposition (1).

I invite you, Alanbrooke, to let us know whether you think it is also something to be proud of, and if so, to give evidence from your choice of the world's great religious leaders or philosophers as to why your opinion is correct/

posho twaddle. Did you study PPE ?.

Or better yet, "read"....

LOL

snobs speak their own language. maybe that's why they can't communicate with the rest of us.

The idea that knowledge - as in knowing that you 'read' a subject - is in some way 'snobby language' is exactly the sort of thing that the lefty bourgeois intelligentsia use to cover up their own intellectual vacuum and keep the proles on the dole.

;-)

Alanbrooke

JosiasJessop said:

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

Absolutely not. Consider the following two propositions:

(1) It is natural to prefer one's own children to other people's. (2) It is morally good to prefer one's own children to other people's.

If it is "posho" to see a difference between them, then I must plead guilty. If it is "posho" to think that anger is always unjustifiable, then I must plead guilty.

I do not regard "respectable racism" as an insult. I regard it as a natural extension of proposition (1).

I invite you, Alanbrooke, to let us know whether you think it is also something to be proud of, and if so, to give evidence from your choice of the world's great religious leaders or philosophers as to why your opinion is correct/

posho twaddle. Did you study PPE ?.

Or better yet, "read"....

LOL

snobs speak their own language. maybe that's why they can't communicate with the rest of us.

The idea that knowledge - as in knowing that you 'read' a subject - is in some way 'snobby language' is exactly the sort of thing that the lefty bourgeois intelligentsia use to cover up their own intellectual vacuum and keep the proles on the dole.

;-)

Fraid so, but now I have to leave the joys of political debate and go and see a man about some welding.

;-)

blackburn63

"Respectable racism", is this the latest attempt to discredit those people in working class areas who are experiencing problems directly connected with immigration? At a primary school near me there are more than 20 languages spoken, at another signs on classroom doors are in different languages. People can argue this shouldn't a concern, but it is to those directly involved. Read the same for doctors surgeries and A&E waiting rooms. And those looking for work in construction.

corporeal

isam said:

corporeal said:

isam said:

Around 500 of the 2000 Isis jihadists are British, but labour mp reckons it's more like 2000

How did we let it come to this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730602/The-homegrown-jihadists-fighting-ISIS-How-one-four-foreigners-signed-Islamic-State-British-half-ALREADY-UK.html

Compare and contrast the International Brigades (largely communist iirc) who went to fight in the Spanish civil war.

Couldn't really care less about that sorry

All I would say is the British government didn't import those people en masse despite warnings trouble would eventually arise. Well we've got it now.

Why you have to play devils advocate I don't know. You sound like an apologist

You're missing my point, you were saying how did we let it come to this.

I was pointing to the most recent historical example I could think of a similar thing taking place.

CD13

Mr Brooke,

You're being slightly unfair to Innocent (but amusingly so).

There is always an element of disdain given to Ukip. At it's best, it sounds like they are being patronising to the Kippers and they are. We are well aware that ...'suspicion of the unknown' is a human trait and skin colour is one marker, but it's the cultural differences that are the real markers.

Even if the newcomers are white and Christian, they often work harder and are better qualified. They take jobs for that reason. And they're just as disliked - see Vilnius Central aka Boston.

But telling the Kippers that they wouldn't understand long words so we'll make it simple ... 'you're a thick racist bigot' doesn't convince many. Innocent is far too nice to do that but there seems to be an urge by 'PPE types' to lecture mere mortals.

I'm amused. They have a third of a degree in economics - a Mickey Mouse science - yet they know it all. And third of a degree in Politics - telling other people that you're better.

Ah bless.

Innocent_Abroad

blackburn63 said:

"Respectable racism", is this the latest attempt to discredit those people in working class areas who are experiencing problems directly connected with immigration? At a primary school near me there are more than 20 languages spoken, at another signs on classroom doors are in different languages. People can argue this shouldn't a concern, but it is to those directly involved. Read the same for doctors surgeries and A&E waiting rooms. And those looking for work in construction.

Please read my post (since I think I am the author of the term, at leas on this Forum). I am not seeking to discredit anyone, whether it be the young east European staff at the upmarket Indian restaurant I was in last night, the many - and unfailingly polite - Arab neighbours I have in this corner of west London or those who, like myself, are English born and bred. Although there is precious little to be proud of in being English these days.

Theuniondivvie

Alanbrooke said:

JosiasJessop said:

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

Yes, UKIP is a "respectable racist" Party which is something British politics hasn't had before. How the shade of Enoch Powell must be gloating! I would only add that if half its support appears to come from people who usually don't vote, I wonder how many of them will actually vote next time. Getting such people to turn out requires an on-the-ground operation UKIP simply hasn't got.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

Absolutely not. Consider the following two propositions:

(1) It is natural to prefer one's own children to other people's. (2) It is morally good to prefer one's own children to other people's.

If it is "posho" to see a difference between them, then I must plead guilty. If it is "posho" to think that anger is always unjustifiable, then I must plead guilty.

I do not regard "respectable racism" as an insult. I regard it as a natural extension of proposition (1).

I invite you, Alanbrooke, to let us know whether you think it is also something to be proud of, and if so, to give evidence from your choice of the world's great religious leaders or philosophers as to why your opinion is correct/

posho twaddle. Did you study PPE ?.

Or better yet, "read"....

LOL

snobs speak their own language. maybe that's why they can't communicate with the rest of us.

The idea that knowledge - as in knowing that you 'read' a subject - is in some way 'snobby language' is exactly the sort of thing that the lefty bourgeois intelligentsia use to cover up their own intellectual vacuum and keep the proles on the dole.

;-)

Fraid so, but now I have to leave the joys of political debate and go and see a man about some welding.

;-)

Ask him if he qualified by 'reading' welding.

Innocent_Abroad

CD13 said:

Mr Brooke,

You're being slightly unfair to Innocent (but amusingly so).

There is always an element of disdain given to Ukip. At it's best, it sounds like they are being patronising to the Kippers and they are. We are well aware that ...'suspicion of the unknown' is a human trait and skin colour is one marker, but it's the cultural differences that are the real markers.

Even if the newcomers are white and Christian, they often work harder and are better qualified. They take jobs for that reason. And they're just as disliked - see Vilnius Central aka Boston.

But telling the Kippers that they wouldn't understand long words so we'll make it simple ... 'you're a thick racist bigot' doesn't convince many. Innocent is far too nice to do that but there seems to be an urge by 'PPE types' to lecture mere mortals.

I'm amused. They have a third of a degree in economics - a Mickey Mouse science - yet they know it all. And third of a degree in Politics - telling other people that you're better.

Ah bless.

I can certainly agree that economics is a Mickey mouse science. Politics as an academic discipline is really a bit of history and a bit of philosophy. At least I could do PPE in English, whereas History (my lead subject at "A" level) seemed at Cowley Tech to be mainly conducted in medieval French.

And thank you for your kind words...

volcanopete

I suspect there will be a Con-Ukip competition to see which party can be the most beastly towards furry animals as the Countryside Alliance supporters start lobbying.Owen Paterson will be eyeing a leadership bid too.

Sean_F

Innocent_Abroad said:

Alanbrooke said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

These figures confirm what I've told you lot previously, those of us on the ground know exactly where our support is coming from, it's working class people who are seeing the impact of immigration on jobs, schools, health etc. Labour and conservative need to be equally concerned, neither have any coherent plan or response to the immigration problem. And despite what some people in the bubble say, the problem is enormous and growing.

In a nutshell that sums up the problem the english poshos have with UKIP

you want to dismiss their supporters problems as meaningless and chuck in a few insults as you tell them to clear off.

meanwhile you're wringing your hands about low turnouts and "engagement" from the very people you denigrate.

Absolutely not. Consider the following two propositions:

(1) It is natural to prefer one's own children to other people's. (2) It is morally good to prefer one's own children to other people's.

If it is "posho" to see a difference between them, then I must plead guilty. If it is "posho" to think that anger is always unjustifiable, then I must plead guilty.

I do not regard "respectable racism" as an insult. I regard it as a natural extension of proposition (1).

I invite you, Alanbrooke, to let us know whether you think it is also something to be proud of, and if so, to give evidence from your choice of the world's great religious leaders or philosophers as to why your opinion is correct/

It certainly is morally virtuous to prefer one's own children over other peoples'. If you bring children into the world, you have an obligation to do your best for them. It would be perverse not to.

Hugh

We know exactly what Tories on holiday look like

http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/103580/daily_mirror_friday_22nd_august_2014.html

Sam, what's that big slippery creature that's just come out the sea?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/05/david-cameron-holiday-fish-market-photos

Neil

volcanopete said:

Owen Paterson will be eyeing a leadership bid too.

He better get someone else to organise it because if it was down to him it would be a disaster.

blackburn63

Innocent_Abroad said:

blackburn63 said:

"Respectable racism", is this the latest attempt to discredit those people in working class areas who are experiencing problems directly connected with immigration? At a primary school near me there are more than 20 languages spoken, at another signs on classroom doors are in different languages. People can argue this shouldn't a concern, but it is to those directly involved. Read the same for doctors surgeries and A&E waiting rooms. And those looking for work in construction.

Please read my post (since I think I am the author of the term, at leas on this Forum). I am not seeking to discredit anyone, whether it be the young east European staff at the upmarket Indian restaurant I was in last night, the many - and unfailingly polite - Arab neighbours I have in this corner of west London or those who, like myself, are English born and bred. Although there is precious little to be proud of in being English these days.

Ahhh, the upmarket restaurant in West London.

You see, the people I refer to that have concerns about immigration don't dislike anybody, regardless of colour or culture, but they do become concerned when a growing population directly affects their everyday lives. Perhaps you might like to discuss that at your dinner party this evening. Incidentally, I haven't mention English, Arab or any other nationality or race.

Neil

Hugh said:

We know exactly what Tories on holiday look like

http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/103580/daily_mirror_friday_22nd_august_2014.html

Sam, what's that big slippery creature that's just come out the sea?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/05/david-cameron-holiday-fish-market-photos

Yay! Cameron holiday snaps, how we've missed you! Any pics of Cameron and wife waiting to board an Easyjet flight? For old times' sake.

Innocent_Abroad

Sean F [8.33] Actually, it would be perverse to suppose that one's own children were morally better than anyone else's, and doing one's best for them actually implies that recognition, and making sure that they recognised it too.

Don't you remember your mother telling you about "spoilt" little girls (they were usually girls)?

I am sorry that you are unable to understand the true nature of love.

Rob1909

The truth is that a lot of "poshos" who would deny the problems that concern UKIP supporters actually have the same concerns. They just buy property in areas which are unaffected by them.

Sean_F

corporeal said:

isam said:

corporeal said:

isam said:

Around 500 of the 2000 Isis jihadists are British, but labour mp reckons it's more like 2000

How did we let it come to this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730602/The-homegrown-jihadists-fighting-ISIS-How-one-four-foreigners-signed-Islamic-State-British-half-ALREADY-UK.html

Compare and contrast the International Brigades (largely communist iirc) who went to fight in the Spanish civil war.

Couldn't really care less about that sorry

All I would say is the British government didn't import those people en masse despite warnings trouble would eventually arise. Well we've got it now.

Why you have to play devils advocate I don't know. You sound like an apologist

You're missing my point, you were saying how did we let it come to this.

I was pointing to the most recent historical example I could think of a similar thing taking place.

Whatever side people supported in the Spanish civil war, neither side wanted to take the country back to the Seventh century.

There must have been British people who committed atrocities in Spain, but we didn't have to fear them coming back and committing acts of terrorism here.

DavidL

These results are not surprising, indeed they are wholly consistent with many polls that have shown the Tories down only 1 or 2 % from their 2010 score and UKIP in double figures. It would have been very nice for the Tories to have lost some right wing votes and gained more in the centre ground which just might be of more use in the marginals but it was always a little too good to be true, at least on that scale.

UKIP address concerns and a proportion of the electorate that the Tories largely ignored and Labour took for granted for too long. The extent that they can deliver that vote at the polls remains to be seen but no real democrat can decry the fact that there is a chance that a significant and neglected part of our society might be engaged by this phenomenon. If they do vote in significant numbers the mainstream parties will be less inclined to ignore their concerns in future. That would be a good thing.

Neil

Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

Roger

IA.

"Although there is precious little to be proud of in being English these days."

The most accurate observation so far. I can't recall a time of bigotry racism and hypocrisy like it. While the media are crucifying a football manager for a few ill chosen text messages we have Farage being hailed as the Messiah.


and you don't have to visit Guido...there was a time when the likes of Isam wouldn't have been allowed to post on 'Stormfront'

DavidL

Neil said:

Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

She did a debate with Nicola Sturgeon which it is very difficult to comment about without sounding somewhat sexist. On the east coast we used to talk about fishwives before that became non PC.

Sean_F

Innocent_Abroad said:

Sean F [8.33] Actually, it would be perverse to suppose that one's own children were morally better than anyone else's, and doing one's best for them actually implies that recognition, and making sure that they recognised it too.

Don't you remember your mother telling you about "spoilt" little girls (they were usually girls)?

I am sorry that you are unable to understand the true nature of love.

Doing one's best for one's own children does not imply that they are morally superior to other peoples'. It's simply recognising that one has a moral obligation to them which one does not owe to others.

Trying to love every member of the human race equally (unless one is God) is an impossibility. In practice, it would mean loving nobody. Trying to organise a society along those lines results in Pol Pot's Cambodia.

Sean_F

Roger said:

IA.

"Although there is precious little to be proud of in being English these days."

The most accurate observation so far. I can't recall a time of bigotry racism and hypocrisy like it. While the media are crucifying a football manager for a few ill chosen text messages we have Farage being hailed as the Messiah.


and you don't have to visit Guido...there was a time when the likes of Isam wouldn't have been allowed to post on 'Stormfront'

It's the coming of the Fourth Reich.

SquareRoot

Roger said:

IA.

"Although there is precious little to be proud of in being English these days."

The most accurate observation so far. I can't recall a time of bigotry racism and hypocrisy like it. While the media are crucifying a football manager for a few ill chosen text messages we have Farage being hailed as the Messiah.


and you don't have to visit Guido...there was a time when the likes of Isam wouldn't have been allowed to post on 'Stormfront'

quite so Roger, in your world anyone who doesn't agree with you has something wrong with them,
I can see you now, Big Brother watching over us, Newspeak, and Emanuel Goldstein, your work and mission in life would be complete. Poor Winston and Julia, no rumpy pumpy in your world.

Eurasia has always been at war with Eastasia.

edmundintokyo

volcanopete said:

I suspect there will be a Con-Ukip competition to see which party can be the most beastly towards furry animals as the Countryside Alliance supporters start lobbying.Owen Paterson will be eyeing a leadership bid too.

Only to foxes, since they're a tribal signifier.

Apart from that there's probably quite a bit of pro-animal-welfare sentiment among UKIP supporters. One time the animal rights people managed to gain a bit of traction was when they were protesting against innocent British calves being sent abroad to be kept in little veal pens by evil foreign farmers. They ran a bunch of protests in the east-coast ports (now areas with a strong UKIP presence) and got quite a range of local support.

Then there's the halal angle...

Innocent_Abroad

Sean_F said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

Sean F [8.33] Actually, it would be perverse to suppose that one's own children were morally better than anyone else's, and doing one's best for them actually implies that recognition, and making sure that they recognised it too.

Don't you remember your mother telling you about "spoilt" little girls (they were usually girls)?

I am sorry that you are unable to understand the true nature of love.

Doing one's best for one's own children does not imply that they are morally superior to other peoples'. It's simply recognising that one has a moral obligation to them which one does not owe to others.

Trying to love every member of the human race equally (unless one is God) is an impossibility. In practice, it would mean loving nobody. Trying to organise a society along those lines results in Pol Pot's Cambodia.

I agree with your theology. Your conclusion, however, is not the only one possible. Even without going as far as Cambodia, we can for example notice that it is impossible to give to every deserving cause, and that this is an example of sin, brokenness or whatever label you prefer for it. Celebrating it, however, achieves nothing and opens us to the sneering attitude which we have seen displayed this morning by supposing that others are sneering at us.

Neil

Sean_F said:

Roger said:

IA.

"Although there is precious little to be proud of in being English these days."

The most accurate observation so far. I can't recall a time of bigotry racism and hypocrisy like it. While the media are crucifying a football manager for a few ill chosen text messages we have Farage being hailed as the Messiah.


and you don't have to visit Guido...there was a time when the likes of Isam wouldn't have been allowed to post on 'Stormfront'

It's the coming of the Fourth Reich.

Let's all move to France!

Theuniondivvie

Sean_F said:

corporeal said:

isam said:

corporeal said:

isam said:

Around 500 of the 2000 Isis jihadists are British, but labour mp reckons it's more like 2000

How did we let it come to this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730602/The-homegrown-jihadists-fighting-ISIS-How-one-four-foreigners-signed-Islamic-State-British-half-ALREADY-UK.html

Compare and contrast the International Brigades (largely communist iirc) who went to fight in the Spanish civil war.

Couldn't really care less about that sorry

All I would say is the British government didn't import those people en masse despite warnings trouble would eventually arise. Well we've got it now.

Why you have to play devils advocate I don't know. You sound like an apologist

You're missing my point, you were saying how did we let it come to this.

I was pointing to the most recent historical example I could think of a similar thing taking place.

Whatever side people supported in the Spanish civil war, neither side wanted to take the country back to the Seventh century.

There must have been British people who committed atrocities in Spain, but we didn't have to fear them coming back and committing acts of terrorism here.

The UK government were certainly worried about what returning lefties (or premature anti-Fascists) would get up to.

Sean_F

Neil said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:

IA.

"Although there is precious little to be proud of in being English these days."

The most accurate observation so far. I can't recall a time of bigotry racism and hypocrisy like it. While the media are crucifying a football manager for a few ill chosen text messages we have Farage being hailed as the Messiah.


and you don't have to visit Guido...there was a time when the likes of Isam wouldn't have been allowed to post on 'Stormfront'

It's the coming of the Fourth Reich.

Let's all move to France!

Come to think of it, Roger's favourite part of France is a hotbed of FN support.

CD13

All my illusions have been dashed. I used to think that Roger was a real poster. Now I see he's just a caricature having fun.

Can I join in?

Fwee the weal Woger!

edmundintokyo

Theuniondivvie said:

Sean_F said:

corporeal said:

isam said:

corporeal said:

isam said:

Around 500 of the 2000 Isis jihadists are British, but labour mp reckons it's more like 2000

How did we let it come to this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730602/The-homegrown-jihadists-fighting-ISIS-How-one-four-foreigners-signed-Islamic-State-British-half-ALREADY-UK.html

Compare and contrast the International Brigades (largely communist iirc) who went to fight in the Spanish civil war.

Couldn't really care less about that sorry

All I would say is the British government didn't import those people en masse despite warnings trouble would eventually arise. Well we've got it now.

Why you have to play devils advocate I don't know. You sound like an apologist

You're missing my point, you were saying how did we let it come to this.

I was pointing to the most recent historical example I could think of a similar thing taking place.

Whatever side people supported in the Spanish civil war, neither side wanted to take the country back to the Seventh century.

There must have been British people who committed atrocities in Spain, but we didn't have to fear them coming back and committing acts of terrorism here.

The UK government were certainly worried about what returning lefties (or premature anti-Fascists) would get up to.

They certainly had much more to fear then from the spread of Communism than the UK currently has to fear from the spread of Islamism.

Neil

Sean_F said:

Neil said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:

IA.

"Although there is precious little to be proud of in being English these days."

The most accurate observation so far. I can't recall a time of bigotry racism and hypocrisy like it. While the media are crucifying a football manager for a few ill chosen text messages we have Farage being hailed as the Messiah.


and you don't have to visit Guido...there was a time when the likes of Isam wouldn't have been allowed to post on 'Stormfront'

It's the coming of the Fourth Reich.

Let's all move to France!

Come to think of it, Roger's favourite part of France is a hotbed of FN support.

Roger! Sort it out!

isam

SouthamObserver said:

Non-voters have always looked like the biggest source of UKIP support, haven't they?

If I remember correctly turnout in 2010 was slightly up on - or at least not lower than - what it was in 2005. Thus, even allowing for some churn, at best a lot of UKIP supporters will not have voted for a long time. They are going to have to be very motivated to change their minds next year. UKIP is going to need very strong on the ground operations for that and the knowledge of how to deploy them properly.

Whenever OGH shows this breakdown people always make the mistake of forgetting ukip 2010 voters are included in the "others/DNV" part of the chart.

Let's assume ukip lose 25% of their support from the last election! which I'd say is an over estimate of loss! that would still mean 2010 kippers were over a third of the "DNV" section

HYUFD

This is no 'lazy assumption.' Even in February this year yougov's polling showed 45% of UKIP voters voted Tory in 2010, 15% LD, 12% UKIP, 11% Labour and 11% DNV. http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/02/24/where-ukip-gets-its-support/

This Ashcroft poll would therefore seem to be wrong based on those findings or perhaps some Tory voters are now having selective memory and thinking they voted UKIP in 2010. Yet, even with Ashcroft more Kippers are ex-Tories than any other party and where the ex-Tory Kippers go in my view will determine the next election, if they stay with UKIP it will be Ed Miliband in Downing Street, probably with an overall majority, if most vote for Cameron again then Cameron will likely lead another Tory-LD Coalition

foxinsoxuk

Roger said:

IA.



The most accurate observation so far. I can't recall a time of bigotry racism and hypocrisy like it. While the media are crucifying a football manager for a few ill chosen text messages we have Farage being hailed as the Messiah.

Malky McKay does seem to have made himself unemployable by his rather un PC texts and emails.

It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

If he had made his homophobic and misogynist racist rants against Israel and the kaffirs he would have been cheered...

isam

Roger said:

IA.

"Although there is precious little to be proud of in being English these days."

The most accurate observation so far. I can't recall a time of bigotry racism and hypocrisy like it. While the media are crucifying a football manager for a few ill chosen text messages we have Farage being hailed as the Messiah.


and you don't have to visit Guido...there was a time when the likes of Isam wouldn't have been allowed to post on 'Stormfront'

That's an outrageous slur, I've never once said anything racist I suggest you take it back.

What we need less of is out of touch champagne socialists like yourself you fucking mug

dugarbandier

foxinsoxuk said:

It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.

HYUFD

Neil/SeanF/Roger According to the latest 2017 poll by IFOP in late July Marine Le Pen leads the first round with 26% to Sarkozy's 25% and 17% for Hollande or Valls. If Montebourg is PS candidate she gets 27% to Sarkozy's 26%. However, Fillon is likely to run as an independent even if Sarkozy beats him for the UMP nomination which would split the UMP vote and give her a bigger first round win http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_Presidential_election,_2017

edmundintokyo

HYUFD said:

This is no 'lazy assumption.' Even in February this year yougov's polling showed 45% of UKIP voters voted Tory in 2010, 15% LD, 12% UKIP, 11% Labour and 11% DNV. http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/02/24/where-ukip-gets-its-support/

This Ashcroft poll would therefore seem to be wrong based on those findings or perhaps some Tory voters are now having selective memory and thinking they voted UKIP in 2010. Yet, even with Ashcroft more Kippers are ex-Tories than any other party and where the ex-Tory Kippers go in my view will determine the next election, if they stay with UKIP it will be Ed Miliband in Downing Street, probably with an overall majority, if most vote for Cameron again then Cameron will likely lead another Tory-LD Coalition

What's YouGov showing now? There seemed to be a bit more Lab->UKIP switching in advance of the Euros, probably partly due to UKIP tilting towards a harder-edged immigration message to win EP seats off the BNP.

malcolmg

Neil said:

Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

It must be the first time she has spoken in the campaign

Murphy on his tour, Labour and BT proving very popular.............. not for the faint hearted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPL1tbjD_lM&feature=youtu.be

This in Labour heartlands as well

isam

Rob1909 said:

The truth is that a lot of "poshos" who would deny the problems that concern UKIP supporters actually have the same concerns. They just buy property in areas which are unaffected by them.

Like @Roger and his hatred of Romanian beggars in Paris?

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

Rather looking forward to qualifying today.

On the text business, I wonder what the reaction would be if he had spoken the messages in private rather than texted them. Reminds me of that American chap who said some unkind (shall we say) words in his own home, privately, got recorded and was then ostracised.

Meanwhile, handing out pro-ISIS leaflets on Oxford Street doesn't appear to get anyone in authority interested.

Theuniondivvie

foxinsoxuk said:

If he had made his homophobic and misogynist racist rants against Israel and the kaffirs he would have been cheered...

I doubt anyone would have applauded Mackay using a racially offensive word for blacks. Since part of the opprobrium that's been dumped on him was about alleged anti-semitism, I don't think your other suggestion really flies either.

Flightpath

How sad and sloppy to see Mr Smithson use the phrase' Westminster Bubble'

Blofelds_Cat

dugarbandier said:

foxinsoxuk said:

It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.

I can hold whatever views like, but I can't express them in a public forum. Particularly when that group of people who are determined to be outraged can see them.

Too many texts make a tosser, perhaps...

foxinsoxuk

dugarbandier said:

foxinsoxuk said:

It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.

I agree he should be permitted his views, and like the preachers of hate such views should be mocked and pilloried for expressing them.

Such views are best out in the open. Would it have been better if Malky had self censored and become manager at Crystal Palace?

dugarbandier

Blofelds_Cat said:

dugarbandier said:

foxinsoxuk said:

It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.

I can hold whatever views like, but I can't express them in a public forum. Particularly when that group of people who are determined to be outraged can see them.

Too many tweets make ..........

I understood they were text messages though? If the guy holds these objectionable views, but never expresses them in public should he be excluded from working? Now that they are public its hard to see how anyone could employ him in a multicultural environment though, I guess

HYUFD

Malcolmg At least Murphy is getting on his soapbox, have yet to see Salmond and Sturgeon and Swinney do the same. Indeed, it was the soapbox which arguably helped win it for Major in 1992, could it do the same for BT?

dugarbandier

foxinsoxuk said:

dugarbandier said:

foxinsoxuk said:

It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.

I agree he should be permitted his views, and like the preachers of hate such views should be mocked and pilloried for expressing them.

Such views are best out in the open. Would it have been better if Malky had self censored and become manager at Crystal Palace?

I don't know. I would guess there are a large number of people who self-censor every day (some of them voting for UKIP!). But I'm not sure their views should be probed and they ought to be hounded out of their professions

Morris_Dancer

Mr. HYUFD, doesn't Salmond have a golden pedestal he stands on?

Flightpath

dugarbandier said:

foxinsoxuk said:

It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.

Surely people are allowed to hold views and are allowed to express them but then they must then accept to be judged by others on them?
How did these text messages come to light? I suppose one of the two parties could have revealled them... but otherwise how did they become known. I am not sure that texting someone strictly counts as being something done in private.

isam

@pbmoderator

While you're editing my posts for me, maybe you can remember the rule about calling people racist?

HYUFD

EdinTokyo Yesterday's yougov showed 18% of 2010 Tories are now voting UKIP, compared to just 4% of 2010 Labour voters and 8% of 2010 LD voters
http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/gvdufgez3p/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-210814.pdf

Life_ina_market_town

Innocent_Abroad said:

I can certainly agree that economics is a Mickey mouse science. Politics as an academic discipline is really a bit of history and a bit of philosophy. At least I could do PPE in English, whereas History (my lead subject at "A" level) seemed at Cowley Tech to be mainly conducted in medieval French.

Politics is history, but where the facts are what political scientists would like them to be, rather than what they are. PPE is pure cozening, consisting of appropriating the work of other disciplines in utterly superficial detail, without any coherent academic foundations. Should have learnt some medieval Latin...

HYUFD

It is therefore the Coalition Parties who are being hardest hit by UKIP, not Labour. Any swingback will therefore help Cameron and Clegg but be of little benefit to Miliband

MonikerDiCanio

malcolmg said:

Neil said:

Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

It must be the first time she has spoken in the campaign

Murphy on his tour, Labour and BT proving very popular.............. not for the faint hearted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPL1tbjD_lM&feature=youtu.be

This in Labour heartlands as well

The physical ugliness of the YESNP supporters bleating " Red Tory Out " is remarkable. I've never seen a more repulsive rabble.

Neil

Morris_Dancer said:

Meanwhile, handing out pro-ISIS leaflets on Oxford Street doesn't appear to get anyone in authority interested.

You dont view the police as authority figures?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/radical-students-seen-handing-out-leaflets-on-oxford-street-encouraging-british-muslims-to-join-isis-9665280.html

SouthamObserver

Flightpath said:

dugarbandier said:

foxinsoxuk said:

It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.

Surely people are allowed to hold views and are allowed to express them but then they must then accept to be judged by others on them?
How did these text messages come to light? I suppose one of the two parties could have revealled them... but otherwise how did they become known. I am not sure that texting someone strictly counts as being something done in private.

I don't know the law in this area very well, but if texts and emails are sent on devices owned by your employer maybe you have a duty of care to them and they have a right to monitor your correspondence?

Flightpath

Theuniondivvie said:

Sean_F said:

corporeal said:

isam said:

corporeal said:

isam said:

Around 500 of the 2000 Isis jihadists are British, but labour mp reckons it's more like 2000

How did we let it come to this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730602/The-homegrown-jihadists-fighting-ISIS-How-one-four-foreigners-signed-Islamic-State-British-half-ALREADY-UK.html

Compare and contrast the International Brigades (largely communist iirc) who went to fight in the Spanish civil war.

Couldn't really care less about that sorry

All I would say is the British government didn't import those people en masse despite warnings trouble would eventually arise. Well we've got it now.

Why you have to play devils advocate I don't know. You sound like an apologist

You're missing my point, you were saying how did we let it come to this.

I was pointing to the most recent historical example I could think of a similar thing taking place.

Whatever side people supported in the Spanish civil war, neither side wanted to take the country back to the Seventh century.

There must have been British people who committed atrocities in Spain, but we didn't have to fear them coming back and committing acts of terrorism here.

The UK government were certainly worried about what returning lefties (or premature anti-Fascists) would get up to.

Like writing a couple of anti Communist polemics?

Artist

HYUFD said:

It is therefore the Coalition Parties who are being hardest hit by UKIP, not Labour. Any swingback will therefore help Cameron and Clegg but be of little benefit to Miliband

Maybe it's different in marginals.

HYUFD

Paul Ryan soaks suited Mitt Romney in ice bucket challenge http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/08/22/paul-ryan-soaks-mitt-romney-in-ice-bucket-challenge/

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Neil, I stand partially corrected.

Sounds like they're 'assessing' whether anything wrong happened. It's hardly Gene Hunt.

Edited extra bit: wet at Spa.

GIN1138

Conservatives need to appeal to the voters they've lost to UKIP and also the voters Labour had lost to UKIP. They also need to appeal to right-wing inclined Lib-Dems, plus their own voters of course.

Now, how do you square that circle? Sens for Boris?

malcolmg

HYUFD said:

Malcolmg At least Murphy is getting on his soapbox, have yet to see Salmond and Sturgeon and Swinney do the same. Indeed, it was the soapbox which arguably helped win it for Major in 1992, could it do the same for BT?

What a joke, did you actually look at it, did you see how popular labour and Better Together are, in their heartlands as well.
Salmond and Sturgeon are speaking most nights at public meetings , they do not resemble this however.
Where in England do you live and why did you expect to see them speaking there?

HYUFD

MorrisD Indeed, would be more likely to see him being carried on a sedan chair I suspect!

HYUFD

LIAMT I was once told 'history is past politics and politics is present history!'

malcolmg

MonikerDiCanio said:

malcolmg said:

Neil said:

Johann Lamont let loose on Radio 4 just now. I think that's the first time I've heard her in the entire campaign.

It must be the first time she has spoken in the campaign

Murphy on his tour, Labour and BT proving very popular.............. not for the faint hearted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPL1tbjD_lM&feature=youtu.be

This in Labour heartlands as well

The physical ugliness of the YESNP supporters bleating " Red Tory Out " is remarkable. I've never seen a more repulsive rabble.

You mean the labourtories obviously , the Tories little helpers are not too popular. Good to see that it is happening in their heartlands as well nowadays.

HYUFD

Artist No not really, even on this Ashcroft poll of marginals more UKIP voters voted Tory in 2010 than Labour or LD combined. It just seems he is underestimating the numbers of ex Tory Kippers based on the yougov numbers

malcolmg

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. HYUFD, doesn't Salmond have a golden pedestal he stands on?

MD, very juvenile of you there.

taffys

Now, how do you square that circle? Send for Boris?

Personality will only do so much. Policies are what people latch on to.

MikeK

Neil said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Meanwhile, handing out pro-ISIS leaflets on Oxford Street doesn't appear to get anyone in authority interested.

You dont view the police as authority figures?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/radical-students-seen-handing-out-leaflets-on-oxford-street-encouraging-british-muslims-to-join-isis-9665280.html

No. The Met police jump at the first sight and sound of muslims and turn the other way or close their eyes when they see known jihadists on the streets of London: at least until today.
All in the name of multiculturalism and not rocking the boat. The last few Police Chiefs of the Met have been nothing but blubber. But if you didn't pay your TV license, woe to you.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. G, I'm only pulling your leg.

AndyJS

If the pie chart is correct we should be be able to expect a significant rise in turnout in May 2015.

malcolmg

HYUFD said:

MorrisD Indeed, would be more likely to see him being carried on a sedan chair I suspect!

LOL, what a balloon , give us some real comment rather than puerile juvenile drivel. You are obviously not very bright.

FluffyThoughts

Just when you think life is getting dull and predictable Wodger spoofs up. Nice to see you back son...!

Neil

SouthamObserver said:

Flightpath said:

dugarbandier said:

foxinsoxuk said:

It shows how far we have come as a society that virtually no one stands up for his right to privacy and free expression.

it does disturb me slightly, actually. Strikes me as illiberal that people are not allowed to hold certain views, objectionable though they are.

Surely people are allowed to hold views and are allowed to express them but then they must then accept to be judged by others on them?
How did these text messages come to light? I suppose one of the two parties could have revealled them... but otherwise how did they become known. I am not sure that texting someone strictly counts as being something done in private.

I don't know the law in this area very well, but if texts and emails are sent on devices owned by your employer maybe you have a duty of care to them and they have a right to monitor your correspondence?

Cardiff City's owner (who was being sued for millions by Mackay) obtained a High Court order to raid his home and obtained vast amounts of information. Mackay subsequently dropped the suit and issued a grovelling apology. Cardiff passed the information obtained to the FA who are investigating. There could well be more to this than just racism, anti-semitism and homophobia.

malcolmg

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. G, I'm only pulling your leg.

MD , I know but you encourage morons like HYFUD, unfortunately the likes of him think you are being serious.