I'd agree that Asia = too wide a spread to mean a lot.
Britain is a union, however, and therefore everyone is both British and something else.
That the definition of something is debated, or hard to define, though, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I am struggling with is the "Nobody has ever been able to define / cite a canonical definition of Englishness for me" type of assertion, with the implication that there is therefore no such thing.
That's not what I am saying. I have yet to find a convincing rundown of what constitutes an homogenous English culture, let alone one that has been banned by the left and political correrctness - unless, that is, it was an intrinsic part of English culture to discriminate against people on the basis of their skin colour, geneder and sexual preference. For example, in the previous thread, Plato said English culture includes the CoE. I am English and my family has been here since God knows when, but the CoE means absolutely nothing to me. I am an atheist, my wife and kids are Catholic.
From the previous thread; we agreed that there may not be a homogeneous culture per se in any large country.
But I'm interested in why you think 'homogeneous' is important, especially as homogeneity will be impossible in any human population. By adding that word, you've made it impossible to define.
However, surely there are a set of generally shared values? I think you missed the point with queuing: it is not that everyone queues, because not everyone does. It is the fact that the majority of us queue politely and well, and those who do not can be tut-tutted or ahem'ed at because they've broken the unwritten rule.
And yes, as I said it's a silly example. But there are many more. Add all these together, and you get something that is uniquely British. Few people would fulfil all of them, but most would fulfil some of them. It is also rather nebulous. But I think it does exist.
Mrs J moved over here in part because the culture more fits her views and lifestyle than her native country. For this reason, she is very protective of English culture, in some ways more than I am.
These common values vary over time. The Regency period is generally seen as being relatively sexually promiscuous; this rapidly changed through Victorian times, and English culture with it, until another change in the 1960s. English culture in the Regency would be very different from that in the late Victorian period.
Whatever English culture may be, it ain't static.
Again, I agree with you. There are many shared values across the UK - some shared more than others. And, yes, the fluidity is extremely important to recognise.
So you are asking people to define something that, by your addition of the word 'homogeneous' becomes impossible to define?
I have no doubt there is an English culture, just as I have no doubt there is a French culture. Defining it is hard enough without wanting homogeneity.
Nope, I am arguing exactly that - there is no homogenous English culture, let alone a British one. My argument is with people who say that English culture has been banned or is sneered at. But, equally, I believe that if they want to believe that, that is up to them. Victimisation is not part of my English cultural identity, but it may be a part of theirs. Each to his/her own.
The same applies to any culture perhaps france and germany don't exist.
Perhaps. Or maybe it's that they exist, but not as monolithic cultural entities with a single identity.
Unlikely. We have this debate on PB once a year and as ever we will eventually agree there is a high level culture which is recognisably x,y or z and then subsets and variations of it according to region.
Its not worth the argument. Some think there is, others think there isnt. No ones going to be convinced by their opponents argument
Mind you, Id like to see the Labour Party run with the line that there was no such thing as British or English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh Identity though
They'd go with definable irish, scottish ands welsh ones but deny there's an english one
I wouldn't. Gallic Scotland is very different to the Anglo-saxon Borders; there are huge differences between Rural central and north and urban South Wales. You'll know better than me but I guess there are pretty major discrepancies between the cultural identities of folk in the Gaeltacht and the Shankhill Road.
Once you start talking about single national cultures, you invite the notion of ownership. You mock One Nation Ed for doing just that - because you disagree that One Nation exists.
"They'd go with definable irish, scottish ands welsh ones but deny there's an english one"
Here's a clue, Alan - whatever you think the British identity is, that's the English identity. Plato hit the nail on the head earlier without even noticing.
British identity is a multi-national one like the Scandinavian identity.
"They'd go with definable irish, scottish ands welsh ones but deny there's an english one"
Here's a clue, Alan - whatever you think the British identity is, that's the English identity. Plato hit the nail on the head earlier without even noticing.
British identity is a multi-national one like the Scandinavian identity.
That's crap. Plenty of foreigners think of a red-shirted soldier with a furry hat playing bagpipes as a British symbol, yet it's very clearly Scottish. Just because the SNP have spent years trying to play up difference doesn't mean a British national identity does not exist. The British have gone through more of a national formation experience than nations like Germany have.
Vicky has won Deptford. The vote tally was Foxcroft 169 McDonald 87 Nosegbe 40 Hirst 21 Daby 13 Ogbogto 6
Respectable score for McD. I guess we would see her (and Nosegbe) in Dulwich shortlist when(if) Tessa goes.
Bermondsey CLP shortlisted yesterday. I don't know the full shortlist but the 4 men I mentioned you in the past are on it. There may be a woman to make up the numbers.
If Dave want's to play the "I don't discuss individual companies" card then maybe he shouldn't have singled out one comedian's tax affairs.
Google (and other companies) create jobs and pay some tax via NI etc. I think they are bending the rules too much, but it needs to be handled carefully.
That "one comedian", on the other hand, was just taking the p***.
Imagine the indignant squawking from Wee Timmy, if Google shifted their UK operations elsewhere after a tax witchhunt.
'Oh no the incompetent red faced fops have driven my favourite search engine overseas. If I was Prime Minister / Intergalactic Emperor it would all be so different etc'
Matt Chorley @MattChorley Google's Eric Schmidt allowed to leave No10 by the back door after Cameron refuses to challenge him over tax http://bit.ly/YUKSV3
PR genius from Dave.
David Cameron is Prime Minister and a global leader. He doesn't have the time or inclination for gesture politics.
Google has not broken any law. The company has simply complied with existing tax law and taken legitimate advantage of inter-governmental competition on corporation tax levels designed to attract inbound investment.
The solution to the problems of companies like Google 'under-paying' tax is global agreement on policy, initially through bodies such as the G8; greater transparency and relevant detail required in accounting practice; and co-ordinated changes to national tax regimes.
Cameron is giving priority to the issue of taxing global corporations in his leadership of the current G8 negotiations and through the UK's participation in other relevant supra-national bodies. This is a proper and competent course of action.
Grandstanding in front of the TV cameras by insulting corporate executives who have not committed any offence and attempting to blackmail their companies by a campaign of public censure is best left to the tabloid press and its parliamentary equivalent, committees of backbenchers led by super-annuated Labourite hypocrites.
Ned Simons @nedsimons Sir Gerald Howarth says the 'aggressive homosexual community' views the gay marriage bill as a' stepping stone to something even further'.
If Dave want's to play the "I don't discuss individual companies" card then maybe he shouldn't have singled out one comedian's tax affairs.
Google (and other companies) create jobs and pay some tax via NI etc. I think they are bending the rules too much, but it needs to be handled carefully.
That "one comedian", on the other hand, was just taking the p***.
"Plenty of foreigners think of a red-shirted soldier with a furry hat playing bagpipes as a British symbol"
Could you introduce me to a foreigner who thinks that?
"Just because the SNP have spent years trying to play up difference doesn't mean a British national identity does not exist."
So what is it then? When John Major tried to define it, it was something to do with warm beer, long shadows over a cricket pitch, and spinsters cycling to church. He might as well have just chucked in Morris Dancing, because those are all English markers of identity. Can you do any better?
"They'd go with definable irish, scottish ands welsh ones but deny there's an english one"
Here's a clue, Alan - whatever you think the British identity is, that's the English identity. Plato hit the nail on the head earlier without even noticing.
British identity is a multi-national one like the Scandinavian identity.
Rumours swirl round Westminster that the aggresive homosexual community will attempt to kidnap Gerald Howarth.
The plot is to attack the Aldershot MP with pink scatter cushions, tie him up with purple and cerise feather boas and chain him up in a black leather gimp suit in the dungeons of "Dirty Dick's".
The Aldershot MP was unavailable for comment owing to a previous engagement with his thong tailor.
Ned Simons @nedsimons Sir Gerald Howarth says the 'aggressive homosexual community' views the gay marriage bill as a' stepping stone to something even further'.
Rumours swirl round Westminster that the aggresive homosexual community will attempt to kidnap Gerald Howarth.
The plot is to attack the Aldershot MP with pink scatter cushions, tie him up with purple and cerise feather boas and chain him up in a black leather gimp suit in the dungeons of "Dirty Dick's".
The Aldershot MP was unavailable for comment owing to a previous engagement with his thong tailor.
JackW is withdrawing his trebuchets from his scottish ramparts and will be using them to protect said MP. Ammunition will be cow-pats from his extensive acres.
I'd agree that Asia = too wide a spread to mean a lot.
Britain is a union, however, and therefore everyone is both British and something else.
That the definition of something is debated, or hard to define, though, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I am struggling with is the "Nobody has ever been able to define / cite a canonical definition of Englishness for me" type of assertion, with the implication that there is therefore no such thing.
That's not what I am saying. I have yet to find a convincing rundown of what constitutes an homogenous English culture, let alone one that has been banned by the left and political correrctness - unless, that is, it was an intrinsic part of English culture to discriminate against people on the basis of their skin colour, geneder and sexual preference. For example, in the previous thread, Plato said English culture includes the CoE. I am English and my family has been here since God knows when, but the CoE means absolutely nothing to me. I am an atheist, my wife and kids are Catholic.
From the previous thread; we agreed that there may not be a homogeneous culture per se in any large country.
But I'm interested in why you think 'homogeneous' is important, especially as homogeneity will be impossible in any human population. By adding that word, you've made it impossible to define.
However, surely there are a set of generally shared values? I think you missed the point with queuing: it is not that everyone queues, because not everyone does. It is the fact that the majority of us queue politely and well, and those who do not can be tut-tutted or ahem'ed at because they've broken the unwritten rule.
And yes, as I said it's a silly example. But there are many more. Add all these together, and you get something that is uniquely British. Few people would fulfil all of them, but most would fulfil some of them. It is also rather nebulous. But I think it does exist.
Mrs J moved over here in part because the culture more fits her views and lifestyle than her native country. For this reason, she is very protective of English culture, in some ways more than I am.
These common values vary over time. The Regency period is generally seen as being relatively sexually promiscuous; this rapidly changed through Victorian times, and English culture with it, until another change in the 1960s. English culture in the Regency would be very different from that in the late Victorian period.
Whatever English culture may be, it ain't static.
Again, I agree with you. There are many shared values across the UK - some shared more than others. And, yes, the fluidity is extremely important to recognise.
So you are asking people to define something that, by your addition of the word 'homogeneous' becomes impossible to define?
I have no doubt there is an English culture, just as I have no doubt there is a French culture. Defining it is hard enough without wanting homogeneity.
Nope, I am arguing exactly that - there is no homogenous English culture, let alone a British one. My argument is with people who say that English culture has been banned or is sneered at. But, equally, I believe that if they want to believe that, that is up to them. Victimisation is not part of my English cultural identity, but it may be a part of theirs. Each to his/her own.
The same applies to any culture perhaps france and germany don't exist.
Perhaps. Or maybe it's that they exist, but not as monolithic cultural entities with a single identity.
Unlikely. We have this debate on PB once a year and as ever we will eventually agree there is a high level culture which is recognisably x,y or z and then subsets and variations of it according to region.
Its not worth the argument. Some think there is, others think there isnt. No ones going to be convinced by their opponents argument
Mind you, Id like to see the Labour Party run with the line that there was no such thing as British or English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh Identity though
They'd go with definable irish, scottish ands welsh ones but deny there's an english one
I wouldn't. Gallic Scotland is very different to the Anglo-saxon Borders; there are huge differences between Rural central and north and urban South Wales. You'll know better than me but I guess there are pretty major discrepancies between the cultural identities of folk in the Gaeltacht and the Shankhill Road.
Once you start talking about single national cultures, you invite the notion of ownership. You mock One Nation Ed for doing just that - because you disagree that One Nation exists.
Yes we've been through this all before and swaggering blagging London is different too. But if you stuck them all together in a room they'd soon find enough common ground to get along with each other which you couuldn't guarantee if they were put in with a chinese or a russion or a german. there's no point escalating british regional differences to be bigger than they are compared to 100 yrs ago they're substantially less.
I can see that this might be painful for you - and I am sure that @EiT will confirm - but if you go to Japan you will find that, once the locals have figured out that you are not American or Aussie, we really are a far-off country of which they know nothing the you would be regarded as an Igirisu-jin ie an Englishman/Brit. Totally interchangeable for them. Stratford-on-Avon represents a more distinct place than Scotland to your average Japanese. Sorry.
I'd agree that Asia = too wide a spread to mean a lot.
Britain is a union, however, and therefore everyone is both British and something else.
That the definition of something is debated, or hard to define, though, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I am struggling with is the "Nobody has ever been able to define / cite a canonical definition of Englishness for me" type of assertion, with the implication that there is therefore no such thing.
That's not what I am saying. I have yet to find a convincing rundown of what constitutes an homogenous English culture, let alone one that has been banned by the left and political correrctness - unless, that is, it was an intrinsic part of English culture to discriminate against people on the basis of their skin colour, geneder and sexual preference. For example, in the previous thread, Plato said English culture includes the CoE. I am English and my family has been here since God knows when, but the CoE means absolutely nothing to me. I am an atheist, my wife and kids are Catholic.
From the previous thread; we agreed that there may not be a homogeneous culture per se in any large country.
But I'm interested in why you think 'homogeneous' is important, especially as homogeneity will be impossible in any human population. By adding that word, you've made it impossible to define.
However, surely there are a set of generally shared values? I think you missed the point with queuing: it is not that everyone queues, because not everyone does. It is the fact that the majority of us queue politely and well, and those who do not can be tut-tutted or ahem'ed at because they've broken the unwritten rule.
And yes, as I said it's a silly example. But there are many more. Add all these together, and you get something that is uniquely British. Few people would fulfil all of them, but most would fulfil some of them. It is also rather nebulous. But I think it does exist.
Mrs J moved over here in part because the culture more fits her views and lifestyle than her native country. For this reason, she is very protective of English culture, in some ways more than I am.
These common values vary over time. The Regency period is generally seen as being relatively sexually promiscuous; this rapidly changed through Victorian times, and English culture with it, until another change in the 1960s. English culture in the Regency would be very different from that in the late Victorian period.
Whatever English culture may be, it ain't static.
Again, I agree with you. There are many shared values across the UK - some shared more than others. And, yes, the fluidity is extremely important to recognise.
So you are asking people to define something that, by your addition of the word 'homogeneous' becomes impossible to define?
I have no doubt there is an English culture, just as I have no doubt there is a French culture. Defining it is hard enough without wanting homogeneity.
Nope, I am arguing exactly that - there is no homogenous English culture, let alone a British one. My argument is with people who say that English culture has been banned or is sneered at. But, equally, I believe that if they want to believe that, that is up to them. Victimisation is not part of my English cultural identity, but it may be a part of theirs. Each to his/her own.
The same applies to any culture perhaps france and germany don't exist.
Perhaps. Or maybe it's that they exist, but not as monolithic cultural entities with a single identity.
Unlikely. We have this debate on PB once a year and as ever we will eventually agree there is a high level culture which is recognisably x,y or z and then subsets and variations of it according to region.
Its not worth the argument. Some think there is, others think there isnt. No ones going to be convinced by their opponents argument
Mind you, Id like to see the Labour Party run with the line that there was no such thing as British or English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh Identity though
They'd go with definable irish, scottish ands welsh ones but deny there's an english one
I wouldn't. Gallic Scotland is very different to the Anglo-saxon Borders; there are huge differences between Rural central and north and urban South Wales. You'll know better than me but I guess there are pretty major discrepancies between the cultural identities of folk in the Gaeltacht and the Shankhill Road.
Once you start talking about single national cultures, you invite the notion of ownership. You mock One Nation Ed for doing just that - because you disagree that One Nation exists.
Yes we've been through this all before and swaggering blagging London is different too. But if you stuck them all together in a room they'd soon find enough common ground to get along with each other which you couuldn't guarantee if they were put in with a chinese or a russion or a german. there's no point escalating british regional differences to be bigger than they are compared to 100 yrs ago they're substantially less.
Agreed - that's what makes us all British. But to be honest if you threw a few Kiwis and Aussies in the room I'd probably veer towards them rather than the sheep farmer from Llanollanofffairyllwchllan.
"Plenty of foreigners think of a red-shirted soldier with a furry hat playing bagpipes as a British symbol"
Could you introduce me to one?
"Just because the SNP have spent years trying to play up difference doesn't mean a British national identity does not exist."
So what is it then? When John Major tried to define it, it was something to do with warm beer, long shadows over a cricket pitch, and spinsters cycling to church. He might as well have just chucked in Morris Dancing, because those are all English markers of identity. Can you do any better?
You're seriously denying that a bagpipe player is associated with Britain? You're beyond hope, James. I can't introduce you to the foreigners I know in real life, because we're engaging over the internet, but here's just one website mentioning the association:
National culture is always going to be difficult to define and intangible for any country. The best any of us can do is give examples of things. But plenty of things associated with Britain actually come from outside England. Roald Dahl is a much loved British children's author for example, and few would know he was born in Wales. Fictional British agent James Bond was of Scottish descent and birth. The industrial revolution was born across Britain, by the genius of men like Watt and Stephenson from different parts of this isle. The great Victorian infrastructure works dot both sides of Hadrian's wall. The famous British class system has been shared by England and Scotland, both influenced by the existence of a lower gentry, which did not happen in the rest of Europe. The Whiggish intellectual inheritance was a common one, with people like Adam Smith saying Edmund Burke thought exactly as he did on economic matters. Sunday league football is played in a similar fashion across the whole of Britain, and the players drink in similar pubs afterwards. Even modern trends like the celebrity chef is something that comes out of the shared unique culture we have. And let's not forget the British cynical, sarcastic style of humour.
I get that you hate the existence of the United Kingdom, James. But it's a really repugnant trait to try to deny millions of people the existence of their national identity.
I'd agree that Asia = too wide a spread to mean a lot.
Britain is a union, however, and therefore everyone is both British and something else.
That the definition of something is debated, or hard to define, though, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I am struggling with is the "Nobody has ever been able to define / cite a canonical definition of Englishness for me" type of assertion, with the implication that there is therefore no such thing.
That's not what I am saying. I have yet to find a convincing rundown of what constitutes an homogenous English culture, let alone one that has been banned by the left and political correrctness - unless, that is, it was an intrinsic part of English culture to discriminate against people on the basis of their skin colour, geneder and sexual preference. For example, in the previous thread, Plato said English culture includes the CoE. I am English and my family has been here since God knows when, but the CoE means absolutely nothing to me. I am an atheist, my wife and kids are Catholic.
From the previous thread; we agreed that there may not be a homogeneous culture per se in any large country.
But I'm interested in why you think 'homogeneous' is important, especially as homogeneity will be impossible in any human population. By adding that word, you've made it impossible to define.
However, surely there are a set of generally shared values? I think you missed the point with queuing: it is not that everyone queues, because not everyone does. It is the fact that the majority of us queue politely and well, and those who do not can be tut-tutted or ahem'ed at because they've broken the unwritten rule.
And yes, as I said it's a silly example. But there are many more. Add all these together, and you get something that is uniquely British. Few people would fulfil all of them, but most would fulfil some of them. It is also rather nebulous. But I think it does exist.
Mrs J moved over here in part because the culture more fits her views and lifestyle than her native country. For this reason, she is very protective of English culture, in some ways more than I am.
These common values vary over time. The Regency period is generally seen as being relatively sexually promiscuous; this rapidly changed through Victorian times, and English culture with it, until another change in the 1960s. English culture in the Regency would be very different from that in the late Victorian period.
Whatever English culture may be, it ain't static.
Again, I agree with you. There are many shared values across the UK - some shared more than others. And, yes, the fluidity is extremely important to recognise.
So you are asking people to define something that, by your addition of the word 'homogeneous' becomes impossible to define?
I have no doubt there is an English culture, just as I have no doubt there is a French culture. Defining it is hard enough without wanting homogeneity.
Nope, I am arguing exactly that - there is no homogenous English culture, let alone a British one. My argument is with people who say that English culture has been banned or is sneered at. But, equally, I believe that if they want to believe that, that is up to them. Victimisation is not part of my English cultural identity, but it may be a part of theirs. Each to his/her own.
The same applies to any culture perhaps france and germany don't exist.
Perhaps. Or maybe it's that they exist, but not as monolithic cultural entities with a single identity.
Unlikely. We have this debate on PB once a year and as ever we will eventually agree there is a high level culture which is recognisably x,y or z and then subsets and variations of it according to region.
Its not worth the argument. Some think there is, others think there isnt. No ones going to be convinced by their opponents argument
Mind you, Id like to see the Labour Party run with the line that there was no such thing as British or English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh Identity though
They'd go with definable irish, scottish ands welsh ones but deny there's an english one
I wouldn't. Gallic Scotland is very different to the Anglo-saxon Borders; there are huge differences between Rural central and north and urban South Wales. You'll know better than me but I guess there are pretty major discrepancies between the cultural identities of folk in the Gaeltacht and the Shankhill Road.
Once you start talking about single national cultures, you invite the notion of ownership. You mock One Nation Ed for doing just that - because you disagree that One Nation exists.
Yes we've been through this all before and swaggering blagging London is different too. But if you stuck them all together in a room they'd soon find enough common ground to get along with each other which you couuldn't guarantee if they were put in with a chinese or a russion or a german. there's no point escalating british regional differences to be bigger than they are compared to 100 yrs ago they're substantially less.
Agreed - that's what makes us all British. But to be honest if you threw a few Kiwis and Aussies in the room I'd probably veer towards them rather than the sheep farmer from Llanollanofffairyllwchllan.
That's Anglo-celt for want of a better name. Can, NZ and Aus have a shared background with us from the last 100 yrs with a fair chunk of cultural Americana thrown in for us all.
'and its parliamentary equivalent, committees of backbenchers led by super-annuated Labourite hypocrites.'
There was an excellent channel 4 interview the other night with Hodge,who after trying to avoid the question admitted that her family business did have trust funds,but they were nothing to do with IHT avoidance but she then went on to say she didn't know the purpose of the trust funds.
And Bicestor is more real to an average Chinese tourist to Britain than Edinburgh is. Oh, and if I address a postcard from Italy to Paisley it will get there a lot quicker if you fill in the country line with Inglaterre. Sorry.
"You're seriously denying that a bagpipe player is associated with Britain? You're beyond hope, James."
I think you're beyond hope if your logic is seriously that because a bagpipe player is associated with Scotland, and because Scotland is part of Britain, therefore a bagpipe player is a symbol of Britain.
Do you seriously think that a flamenco dancer is a symbol of Europe? Maybe you do.
"I get that you hate the existence of the United Kingdom, James."
You're making the same mistake as Nigel - mixing up the desire to reform a broken constitutional system with "hate".
"But it's a really repugnant trait to try to deny millions of people the existence of their national identity."
When you work out what your "national" identity actually is, I might be more impressed by that squeal of indignation. For the moment your suggestions of what Britishness is confirm my view that it's a multi-national rather than national identity.
This aggressive talk and lesbians just sounds deranged. However, in the interests of furthering my own knowledge and ability to contribute to the debate I shall go and peruse some relevant material on the subject.
Whilst it is clear that Dave's strategy of kicking the EU into the long grass is a failure of biblical proportions, it surely would be utterly folly for the blues to ditch him.
This poll is going to be fun. Labour 2nd or Tories 3rd is my guess. Who knows maybe both.
"I can see that this might be painful for you - and I am sure that @EiT will confirm - but if you go to Japan you will find that, once the locals have figured out that you are not American or Aussie, we really are a far-off country of which they know nothing the you would be regarded as an Igirisu-jin ie an Englishman/Brit. Totally interchangeable for them. Stratford-on-Avon represents a more distinct place than Scotland to your average Japanese. Sorry."
Oh, please don't apologise. I'm always grateful when someone identifies one of the many problems to which independence is the solution. That one's a relatively trivial one, but they all mount up.
"You're seriously denying that a bagpipe player is associated with Britain? You're beyond hope, James."
I think you're beyond hope if your logic is seriously that because a bagpipe player is associated with Scotland, and because Scotland is part of Britain, therefore a bagpipe player is a symbol of Britain.
Except I don't think that. Have you ever been to the main sights of London, the UK's capital city? Places like Picadilly Circus, Covent Garden and Parliament Square often have a bagpipe player playing. The reason is that it's because bagpipes are considered a British sight that visitors to Britain want to see.
"But it's a really repugnant trait to try to deny millions of people the existence of their national identity."
When you work out what your "national" identity actually is, I might be more impressed by that squeal of indignation. For the moment your suggestions of what Britishness is confirm my view that it's a multi-national rather than national identity.
So because I identify as British, I haven't worked out what my national identity is? Of course anything you hear confirms your view. You're one of the most close-minded people on here.
I can't wait until 2014 when the Scottish people prove they are loyal, patriotic Brits.
Whilst it is clear that Dave's strategy of kicking the EU into the long grass is a failure of biblical proportions, it surely would be utterly folly for the blues to ditch him.
This poll is going to be fun. Labour 2nd or Tories 3rd is my guess. Who knows maybe both.
Nah.
The jaw dropping poll news is that UKIP lead in the Scottish Subsample.
If it is any help I didn't find, during my quite extensive time in Nihon (mid-late 90's, to be fair but I haven't heard much to the contrary since) the Japanese also - in general, I'm not talking about journalists on the Economist - struggled to distinguish between the Irish and the Brits. Really, from their point of view, there is not much difference.
"Except I don't think that. Have you ever been to the main sights of London, the UK's capital city? Places like Picadilly Circus, Covent Garden and Parliament Square often have a bagpipe player playing. The reason is that it's because bagpipes are considered a British sight that visitors to Britain want to see."
Do you really believe this stuff? I must say my own impression is that you're trying to convince yourself as much as anything. I heard bagpipes playing the last time I was in Paris - should have I been reassured by the homely sounds of the Franco-British confederacy? And of course bagpipes are never heard in the US. Or in Canada. Or New Zealand.
And that's before we get to the Chinese using them in the 2008 Olympic opening ceremony. Maybe it's a symbol of global heritage or something?
"You don't want to reform the UK. You want to break it and end it permanently."
So you agree that rUK will not be the successor state and will not be using the name "United Kingdom"? Crikey. I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, Socrates.
"I can't wait until 2014 when the Scottish people prove they are loyal, patriotic Brits."
Best not get your heart set on it, old chap. After yesterday's Panelbase poll I'm starting to fear for your health -
To indicate how off that Electoral Calculus prediction is, I've just checked the map and not one of the seats to fall to UKIP is in Kent which after the county council elections is their strongest county but they do take three seats in Scotland and two in Wales to compensate!
This aggressive talk and lesbians just sounds deranged. However, in the interests of furthering my own knowledge and ability to contribute to the debate I shall go and peruse some relevant material on the subject.
"If it is any help I didn't find, during my quite extensive time in Nihon (mid-late 90's, to be fair but I haven't heard much to the contrary since) the Japanese also - in general, I'm not talking about journalists on the Economist - struggled to distinguish between the Irish and the Brits. Really, from their point of view, there is not much difference."
Well if they can't even distinguish between the Irish and the English then it's a failure of the Japanese education system, and not something that's relevant to this debate.
To indicate how off that Electoral Calculus prediction is, I've just checked the map and not one of the seats to fall to UKIP is in Kent which after the county council elections is their strongest county but they do take three seats in Scotland and two in Wales to compensate!
So much for your Electoral Calculus prediction. The whole thing's a load of bollocks. Even I don't think that UKIP will get 3 seats in Scotland, unless UKIP exceeds 33%, that is.
"If it is any help I didn't find, during my quite extensive time in Nihon (mid-late 90's, to be fair but I haven't heard much to the contrary since) the Japanese also - in general, I'm not talking about journalists on the Economist - struggled to distinguish between the Irish and the Brits. Really, from their point of view, there is not much difference."
Well if they can't even distinguish between the Irish and the English then it's a failure of the Japanese education system, and not something that's relevant to this debate.
Out of interest, what happens if we are witnessing an Italian-style political turnaround, and UKIP finish on 30% or so in 2015?
Imagine if ukip were first in votes on 30%, but third or fourth in terms of number of seats. ...
Playing with the numbers on Electoral Calculus indicates that 28/29% is where UKIP start going from a handful of seats to shedloads.
I guess it depends on what the split between Conservatives and Labour is for the rest of the votes. This is one scenario where Con:Lab:Lib:UKIP is 24:28:11:30, and gives seats of 184:311:35:91 - so most likely a LabLib Coalition.
If you adjust the scores very slightly to 22:30:11:30 then you get 150:334:30:107 and a Labour majority of 18... but I suppose we would be in seriously uncharted waters by that stage.
This aggressive talk and lesbians just sounds deranged. However, in the interests of furthering my own knowledge and ability to contribute to the debate I shall go and peruse some relevant material on the subject.
What's Lammy saying?
Comparing opponents of gay marriage to supporters of the slave trade.
Well, it seems it's going to be an exciting evening for some on here. IF it's a strong poll for UKIP (the general assumption), then their supporters will no doubt assert we are on the cusp of some form of political upheaval.
None of this makes such an upheaval or realignment a certainty or even more than a possibility. It will be fascinating to see how a quiet summer and a gently economic improvement impacts on UKIP fortunes. After all, in 2008, many on here were salivating over the certainty of a Tory landslide.
Well, it seems it's going to be an exciting evening for some on here. IF it's a strong poll for UKIP (the general assumption), then their supporters will no doubt assert we are on the cusp of some form of political upheaval.
None of this makes such an upheaval or realignment a certainty or even more than a possibility. It will be fascinating to see how a quiet summer and a gently economic improvement impacts on UKIP fortunes. After all, in 2008, many on here were salivating over the certainty of a Tory landslide.
We can be sure that the general election result will see UKIP poll fewer votes than in their opinion poll high water mark.
I never expected them to reach 20% in a Westminster opinion poll, though.
If it is any help I didn't find, during my quite extensive time in Nihon (mid-late 90's, to be fair but I haven't heard much to the contrary since) the Japanese also - in general, I'm not talking about journalists on the Economist - struggled to distinguish between the Irish and the Brits. Really, from their point of view, there is not much difference.
When I was in Scotland thirteen years ago, a Japanese NTT executive asked me to take him to a typical English pub.
We were in Edinburgh.
What followed was a very enjoyable pub crawl, trying to find various aspects of an 'English' pub on the Royal Mile. After which I went back to the hostel I was staying at, and picked up an Aussie girl who ended up being my partner for four wonderful years.
A few days before, I had met a Canadian girl who thought she would have to change her Scottish bank notes to English ones before travelling south of the border.
So yes, I think differentiating between the various constituent nations, their histories, laws and cultures (both distinct and shared) is difficult for many foreigners.
Miss Cyclefree, according to posts below Lammy has compared the marriage situation to the slave trade.
Thank you Mr Dancer.
Gay marriage like slavery?!
Or the lack of it?
Really, it seems to me that many of the opponents are simply people who feel that decriminalising homosexuality is all that was needed and anything else is "aggressive".
I do find it odd that those who are keenest on stable, conservative (with a small "c") institutions such as marriage and families are so reluctant to extend it. The real problems in society are when we don't have stable loving families (e.g. those poor abused children in care and really sold / trafficked into sex slavery) not a gay couple wanting a wedding and to be treated like everyone else.
More seriously on the same point the Cleggasm provided the Libdems with their largest vote total since 1987 and had they avoided the lure of power (particularly in coalition with the Tories) could have put them in an even stronger position in 2015.
This aggressive talk and lesbians just sounds deranged. However, in the interests of furthering my own knowledge and ability to contribute to the debate I shall go and peruse some relevant material on the subject.
What's Lammy saying?
Comparing opponents of gay marriage to supporters of the slave trade.
Given that the voting records of these bigots shows them against equality for gay people in any form, age of consent,civil partnerships, adoption etc he's right to make the point that they believe some people are created unequal.
More seriously on the same point the Cleggasm provided the Libdems with their largest vote total since 1987 and had they avoided the lure of power (particularly in coalition with the Tories) could have put them in an even stronger position in 2015.
Except that there wouldn't be an election in 2015.
(1) I believe you've also supported Welsh independence and a united Ireland in the past. That would indeed end the UK. Apologies if I'm mistaken.
(2) Needless to say, I do strongly believe in a British national identity. We have a common culture, history, language and everything that demarks a nation. And it's a national identity that has existed longer than that of Germans and Italians. Although presumably you're the type to say lederhosen and Oktoberfest aren't considered German things because they're also associated with Bavaria.
(3) British culture is often seen in the USA, Australia etc because they were settled by Britons.
The real problems in society are when we don't have stable loving families (e.g. those poor abused children in care and really sold / trafficked into sex slavery) not a gay couple wanting a wedding and to be treated like everyone else.
And who want to be able to provide a stable loving home to those children unfortunate enough not to have one. If Gerald Howarth had spent the weekend with the family I stayed with he might have given a very different speech today.
Just for fun, but the Survation poll in electoral calculus gives a Labour majority of >100 and UKIP take one seat in Cornwall. You have to laugh at the silliness of it.
@Charles - My ranking of current opinion pollsters would be ICM > MORI > YouGov > The Rest of the Online Hordes. It's a shame we only have two regular phone pollsters left.
I take a crumb of comfort (and a small one, at that) from the fact that despite all the political upheaval on the right, the demolition of the LibDems, and heavy cuts in public spending (exc. debt servicing), Labour can still only persuade 1 in 3 people to vote for them.
Comments
Once you start talking about single national cultures, you invite the notion of ownership. You mock One Nation Ed for doing just that - because you disagree that One Nation exists.
Vicky has won Deptford. The vote tally was Foxcroft 169 McDonald 87 Nosegbe 40 Hirst 21 Daby 13 Ogbogto 6
Respectable score for McD. I guess we would see her (and Nosegbe) in Dulwich shortlist when(if) Tessa goes.
Bermondsey CLP shortlisted yesterday. I don't know the full shortlist but the 4 men I mentioned you in the past are on it. There may be a woman to make up the numbers.
If only there were markets on who would win Labour selections
That "one comedian", on the other hand, was just taking the p***.
'Oh no the incompetent red faced fops have driven my favourite search engine overseas. If I was Prime Minister / Intergalactic Emperor it would all be so different etc'
The news will be on ITV at 10pm tonight
David turned over Goliath
Arsenal finished above Spurs
Tomorrow is Tuesday
Since Arsenal last won a trophy, all the other 91 Football clubs in England have changed their manager.
And there is no evidence (that I have seen) that Google has done anything illegal.
That said, a PM should be above the kind of running commentary on the popular topic of the day that Blair introduced
Hopefully next year we can put that right
Although if its the FA or League Cup Id rather finish in the top 4
I groan that this fellow represents the Conservative cause in 2013.
Google has not broken any law. The company has simply complied with existing tax law and taken legitimate advantage of inter-governmental competition on corporation tax levels designed to attract inbound investment.
The solution to the problems of companies like Google 'under-paying' tax is global agreement on policy, initially through bodies such as the G8; greater transparency and relevant detail required in accounting practice; and co-ordinated changes to national tax regimes.
Cameron is giving priority to the issue of taxing global corporations in his leadership of the current G8 negotiations and through the UK's participation in other relevant supra-national bodies. This is a proper and competent course of action.
Grandstanding in front of the TV cameras by insulting corporate executives who have not committed any offence and attempting to blackmail their companies by a campaign of public censure is best left to the tabloid press and its parliamentary equivalent, committees of backbenchers led by super-annuated Labourite hypocrites.
http://xkcd.com/887/
It was in the Sunday Times.
My other favourite stat, despite being only appointed eleven months ago, Brendan Rodgers is now the 28th longest serving manager in England.
Could you introduce me to a foreigner who thinks that?
"Just because the SNP have spent years trying to play up difference doesn't mean a British national identity does not exist."
So what is it then? When John Major tried to define it, it was something to do with warm beer, long shadows over a cricket pitch, and spinsters cycling to church. He might as well have just chucked in Morris Dancing, because those are all English markers of identity. Can you do any better?
Well the Kylie bit.
The plot is to attack the Aldershot MP with pink scatter cushions, tie him up with purple and cerise feather boas and chain him up in a black leather gimp suit in the dungeons of "Dirty Dick's".
The Aldershot MP was unavailable for comment owing to a previous engagement with his thong tailor.
But enough about you, Alan, tell me about British identity.
The Pink Order? Spirit of Bumcree?
But if you stuck them all together in a room they'd soon find enough common ground to get along with each other which you couuldn't guarantee if they were put in with a chinese or a russion or a german. there's no point escalating british regional differences to be bigger than they are compared to 100 yrs ago they're substantially less.
I can see that this might be painful for you - and I am sure that @EiT will confirm - but if you go to Japan you will find that, once the locals have figured out that you are not American or Aussie, we really are a far-off country of which they know nothing the you would be regarded as an Igirisu-jin ie an Englishman/Brit. Totally interchangeable for them. Stratford-on-Avon represents a more distinct place than Scotland to your average Japanese. Sorry.
Surely the main public objection to it isn't based on morality, its based on relevance.
It's an economic upswing issue, not an economic downswing issue....
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=441_1297989960
National culture is always going to be difficult to define and intangible for any country. The best any of us can do is give examples of things. But plenty of things associated with Britain actually come from outside England. Roald Dahl is a much loved British children's author for example, and few would know he was born in Wales. Fictional British agent James Bond was of Scottish descent and birth. The industrial revolution was born across Britain, by the genius of men like Watt and Stephenson from different parts of this isle. The great Victorian infrastructure works dot both sides of Hadrian's wall. The famous British class system has been shared by England and Scotland, both influenced by the existence of a lower gentry, which did not happen in the rest of Europe. The Whiggish intellectual inheritance was a common one, with people like Adam Smith saying Edmund Burke thought exactly as he did on economic matters. Sunday league football is played in a similar fashion across the whole of Britain, and the players drink in similar pubs afterwards. Even modern trends like the celebrity chef is something that comes out of the shared unique culture we have. And let's not forget the British cynical, sarcastic style of humour.
I get that you hate the existence of the United Kingdom, James. But it's a really repugnant trait to try to deny millions of people the existence of their national identity.
'and its parliamentary equivalent, committees of backbenchers led by super-annuated Labourite hypocrites.'
There was an excellent channel 4 interview the other night with Hodge,who after trying to avoid the question admitted that her family business did have trust funds,but they were nothing to do with IHT avoidance but she then went on to say she didn't know the purpose of the trust funds.
Maybe her committee could get some clarification.
I think you're beyond hope if your logic is seriously that because a bagpipe player is associated with Scotland, and because Scotland is part of Britain, therefore a bagpipe player is a symbol of Britain.
Do you seriously think that a flamenco dancer is a symbol of Europe? Maybe you do.
"I get that you hate the existence of the United Kingdom, James."
You're making the same mistake as Nigel - mixing up the desire to reform a broken constitutional system with "hate".
"But it's a really repugnant trait to try to deny millions of people the existence of their national identity."
When you work out what your "national" identity actually is, I might be more impressed by that squeal of indignation. For the moment your suggestions of what Britishness is confirm my view that it's a multi-national rather than national identity.
If not already posted, here's a good blog piece from Sean T
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100217822/revealed-how-david-cameron-and-his-bullingdon-chums-will-win-the-next-general-election/
This aggressive talk and lesbians just sounds deranged. However, in the interests of furthering my own knowledge and ability to contribute to the debate I shall go and peruse some relevant material on the subject.
This poll is going to be fun. Labour 2nd or Tories 3rd is my guess. Who knows maybe both.
Oh, please don't apologise. I'm always grateful when someone identifies one of the many problems to which independence is the solution. That one's a relatively trivial one, but they all mount up.
Out of interest, what happens if we are witnessing an Italian-style political turnaround, and UKIP finish on 30% or so in 2015?
Based on Con 27% Lab 27% UKIP 27% LD 10% Oth 9%
Figures would be
Con 258
Lab 305
Lib 35
UKIP 23
Oth 11
Lab 21 short of a majority
Of course that is using UNS and we know that if UKIP made that sort of breakthrough it would turn the whole election upside down.
I can't wait until 2014 when the Scottish people prove they are loyal, patriotic Brits.
The jaw dropping poll news is that UKIP lead in the Scottish Subsample.
Roll on the polling pornography.
If it is any help I didn't find, during my quite extensive time in Nihon (mid-late 90's, to be fair but I haven't heard much to the contrary since) the Japanese also - in general, I'm not talking about journalists on the Economist - struggled to distinguish between the Irish and the Brits. Really, from their point of view, there is not much difference.
If not posted already - factcheck on the 4bn thing:
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-the-cost-of-heterosexual-civil-partnerships/13512?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Do you really believe this stuff? I must say my own impression is that you're trying to convince yourself as much as anything. I heard bagpipes playing the last time I was in Paris - should have I been reassured by the homely sounds of the Franco-British confederacy? And of course bagpipes are never heard in the US. Or in Canada. Or New Zealand.
And that's before we get to the Chinese using them in the 2008 Olympic opening ceremony. Maybe it's a symbol of global heritage or something?
"You don't want to reform the UK. You want to break it and end it permanently."
So you agree that rUK will not be the successor state and will not be using the name "United Kingdom"? Crikey. I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, Socrates.
"I can't wait until 2014 when the Scottish people prove they are loyal, patriotic Brits."
Best not get your heart set on it, old chap. After yesterday's Panelbase poll I'm starting to fear for your health -
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/panelbase-poll-yes-campaign-closes-gap.html
Ukip 30% - 73 seats .. Lab 28% - 294 seats .. Con 26% - 217 seats .. LibDem 12% - 37 seats .. Others 4%
Just a bit of Electoral Calculus fun :
Titters ....
Well if they can't even distinguish between the Irish and the English then it's a failure of the Japanese education system, and not something that's relevant to this debate.
Will Nigel last longer than Nick?
Or will it be all fart and no follow through again ?
Eton teaches its warriors to be magnanimous in victory.
If you adjust the scores very slightly to 22:30:11:30 then you get 150:334:30:107 and a Labour majority of 18... but I suppose we would be in seriously uncharted waters by that stage.
Indeed (electoral calculus again)
Lab 294
Con 217
UKIP 73
Lib 37
Oth 11
And still not a seat in Kent. Oh the joys of UNS predictions but at least they become the third party...
Well, it seems it's going to be an exciting evening for some on here. IF it's a strong poll for UKIP (the general assumption), then their supporters will no doubt assert we are on the cusp of some form of political upheaval.
None of this makes such an upheaval or realignment a certainty or even more than a possibility. It will be fascinating to see how a quiet summer and a gently economic improvement impacts on UKIP fortunes. After all, in 2008, many on here were salivating over the certainty of a Tory landslide.
Lee
Shit
I never expected them to reach 20% in a Westminster opinion poll, though.
We were in Edinburgh.
What followed was a very enjoyable pub crawl, trying to find various aspects of an 'English' pub on the Royal Mile. After which I went back to the hostel I was staying at, and picked up an Aussie girl who ended up being my partner for four wonderful years.
A few days before, I had met a Canadian girl who thought she would have to change her Scottish bank notes to English ones before travelling south of the border.
So yes, I think differentiating between the various constituent nations, their histories, laws and cultures (both distinct and shared) is difficult for many foreigners.
Gay marriage like slavery?!
Or the lack of it?
Really, it seems to me that many of the opponents are simply people who feel that decriminalising homosexuality is all that was needed and anything else is "aggressive".
I do find it odd that those who are keenest on stable, conservative (with a small "c") institutions such as marriage and families are so reluctant to extend it. The real problems in society are when we don't have stable loving families (e.g. those poor abused children in care and really sold / trafficked into sex slavery) not a gay couple wanting a wedding and to be treated like everyone else.
(Actually, as a general comment - sure it's been posted before - but could someone do a thread on which pollsters are best for which measure)
http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Survation_May_Voting_Intentions_Poll_Tables_20th-May.pdf
It could be the first times Conservatives have to take refuge in the Liberals.
(1) I believe you've also supported Welsh independence and a united Ireland in the past. That would indeed end the UK. Apologies if I'm mistaken.
(2) Needless to say, I do strongly believe in a British national identity. We have a common culture, history, language and everything that demarks a nation. And it's a national identity that has existed longer than that of Germans and Italians. Although presumably you're the type to say lederhosen and Oktoberfest aren't considered German things because they're also associated with Bavaria.
(3) British culture is often seen in the USA, Australia etc because they were settled by Britons.
(4) Like I said, I really can't wait until 2014.
Still, it'll keep the Kippers higher than a George Michael party .... both of which are fun to behold.
Hardly enough to tickle the loins.
@Charles - My ranking of current opinion pollsters would be ICM > MORI > YouGov > The Rest of the Online Hordes. It's a shame we only have two regular phone pollsters left.
Do you think Labour will win the 2020 election?