GLASGOW, Scotland, Aug 5 (Reuters) - The leader of Scotland's campaign for independence failed to turn a U.S.-style television debate into a victory for his cause on Tuesday six weeks before Scots vote on whether to break up the United Kingdom.
In an unexpected setback for those who support a breakaway, Alex Salmond, the leader of the pro-independence Scottish National Party (SNP), didn't land a knockout blow in a lively debate against Alistair Darling, the leader of the campaign to keep Scotland in the UK.
Ukraine: In case anyone hasn't noticed, the mighty Russia. who apparently were too big to resist, have found their investment in mercenaries, supplies of heavy kit, special forces and artillery attacks across the border to be a poor one. Their surrogates are losing as it stands, noticeably bit by bit.
Putin's answer. Back to the humanitarian mission line. And Russia is reportedly willing to go it alone to solve the humanitarian crisis, by means of tanks. At this point they have few other escalation points to save the separatist effort short term. The only realistic in between step is air-strikes.
There are rumours of a IED bombing campaign being planned by separatists and their associates deep behind the Ukraine front lines.
Its estimated that anything upto 70% of separatist fighters are non-Ukrainians.
Just one note on Israel vs Hamas. One side is better at killing than the other, its called war. Tough. What do you want in global conflicts an equal number of dead just to make it seem fair?
And Russia is reportedly willing to go it alone to solve the humanitarian crisis, by means of tanks.
Just like the IDF in that case?
Just one note on Israel vs Hamas. One side is better at killing than the other, its called war. Tough. What do you want in global conflicts an equal number of dead just to make it seem fair?
F**k sake grow up.
But Israel seems to be waging war against the civilians of Gaza. Grow up!
Sunil Complete Crap. Scotland is actually the ONLY UK region to have swung from Labour to the Tories since 2010. Labour is ahead in every UK region except the South at the moment. The Tories need to win back UKIP voters to form a government, Scotland is not the deciding factor
Yokel Indeed, Assad and Netanyahu may be brutal, but sadly when it comes to beating the barbarians of ISIS and Hamas liberal western handwringing will not do the job!
Sunil Complete Crap. Scotland is actually the ONLY UK region to have swung from Labour to the Tories since 2010. Labour is ahead in every UK region except the South at the moment. The Tories need to win back UKIP voters to form a government, Scotland is not the deciding factor
Crap? By how much will the Tories swing back in Scotland?
Yokel Indeed, Assad and Netanyahu may be brutal, but sadly when it comes to beating the barbarians of ISIS and Hamas liberal western handwringing will not do the job!
Killing loads of civilians in Gaza isn't barbarity?
I believe there is an analogy and something to be learnt from what went on between the Provo-IRA and UK and what we see now between Hamas and Israel. I don't remember the UK destroying the Bogside in the hope of achieving some sort of peace? It doesn't work like that. There will become a time when future leaders of both factions decide that there is more to be gained from cohabitation rather than confrontation. Unfortunately the time may not be now nor even next year but one day that will have to happen. In the meantime counting the bodies on either side, as if that justifies any of what we have witnessed, seems pointless. The rest of the World will have to wait until the necessary leaders for both sides are in power (and hopefully nudge both participants in that direction).
I am surprised how quickly people have forgotten we faced a very similar situation with the IRA's campaign and how successive governments realised a negotiated solution was the only way, security policy was to contain and deescalate the conflict over many years allowing the peace process to develop despite two Prime Ministerial assassination attempts.
Not sure why Salmond hasn't come up with a plan for his own currency - when push comes to shove it'll get him a better negotiating position for a sterling currency union.
Alistair Darling has done well, a points victory and he was scoring heavy, telling blows in the clip that Mike's linked to. No knockout blow but Salmond was on the ropes there.
I think he's lazy. He could have won this if he'd put the economic legwork in imo but he's been cruising.
I believe there is an analogy and something to be learnt from what went on between the Provo-IRA and UK and what we see now between Hamas and Israel. I don't remember the UK destroying the Bogside in the hope of achieving some sort of peace? It doesn't work like that. There will become a time when future leaders of both factions decide that there is more to be gained from cohabitation rather than confrontation. Unfortunately the time may not be now nor even next year but one day that will have to happen. In the meantime counting the bodies on either side, as if that justifies any of what we have witnessed, seems pointless. The rest of the World will have to wait until the necessary leaders for both sides are in power (and hopefully nudge both participants in that direction).
I am surprised how quickly people have forgotten we faced a very similar situation with the IRA's campaign and how successive governments realised a negotiated solution was the only way, security policy was to contain and deescalate the conflict over many years allowing the peace process to develop despite two Prime Ministerial assassination attempts.
Didn't really expect that. Salmond trying to appear statesman like and with a really crap line in irrelevant quotations nowhere near his pugilistic best. Darling not zombie like but actually animated with nearly all of the limited wit on show.
Don't see Darling agreeing to another debate as it is hard to believe that it could go that well again. We may well have seen the last chance for yes die tonight due to an incredible lack of homework and thought by those who have apparently dedicated their political lives to this point.
He certainly did not dominate the occasion in the way some had anticipated. Indeed an instant ICM poll for the Guardian scored it 56 per cent for Mr Darling and 44 per cent for Mr Salmond.
There is, in truth, probably a tinge of disappointment in the Yes camp this morning at an opportunity seemingly missed.
• John Curtice is Professor of Politics, Strathclyde University
Ukraine: In case anyone hasn't noticed, the mighty Russia. who apparently were too big to resist, have found their investment in mercenaries, supplies of heavy kit, special forces and artillery attacks across the border to be a poor one. Their surrogates are losing as it stands, noticeably bit by bit.
Putin's answer. Back to the humanitarian mission line. And Russia is reportedly willing to go it alone to solve the humanitarian crisis, by means of tanks. At this point they have few other escalation points to save the separatist effort short term. The only realistic in between step is air-strikes.
There are rumours of a IED bombing campaign being planned by separatists and their associates deep behind the Ukraine front lines.
Its estimated that anything upto 70% of separatist fighters are non-Ukrainians.
Just one note on Israel vs Hamas. One side is better at killing than the other, its called war. Tough. What do you want in global conflicts an equal number of dead just to make it seem fair?
F**k sake grow up.
We must be looking at different info.
400 of those Ukraine soldiers encircled in the east surrendered the other day. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the rest follow now that the latest Ukraine offensive has bogged down.
It seems to me even though the Ukraine side has a big numerical advantage and has (had) a lot of armor my guess - purely from looking at lots of videos of the fighting - is that their crews are mostly newly recruited kids and they haven't had the time to train them properly so it's been fish in a barrel time with them getting cooked up in large numbers by the militia's anti-tank weapons.
The militia side on the other hand seem a lot older on average and like they've been around.
Cyclefree, Random: It's an odd reading of my piece to suggest that I want to support Hamas, which I twice call an autocratic dictatorship and worse, or abandon Israel. But I disagree with the implicit idea that there is no middle ground between wishing to abandon Israel and accepting an attack of the dimensions and civilian impact that we have just seen. It's ridiculously disproportionate, and I'd say the same if it was conducted by anyone at all. It is possible to have evil enemies and still be wrong.
SeanT, Moniker, Nigel: thanks!
Flightpath: ? We seem to live on different planets, so I'll wish you good night.
You may well genuinely think that there is middle ground. I'm pointing out to you that the representatives of the Palestinians don't believe in any middle ground, don't want any solution based on it and don't want Western interference. So how the hell do you think that such a solution is going to happen?
You are, I feel, naive about who Hamas are and what they want to do. I am troubled by the very aggressive stance Israel is taking - not least because it is counterproductive - but in the choice between Israel, for all its faults, and Islamists such as Hamas I am most definitely not on the side of the Islamists. They are the enemy of the West and of all the liberal, democratic and free world values that I hold dear.
No the real disgrace is people like you who defend Israel no matter what they do and try to pretend they are interested in any sort of viable Palestinian state. They are not.
If you really want to know what Israel thinks of the Two state solution look at what they are doing in the West Bank - which incidently has done its best to abide by the peace plan and has been thoroughly screwed over for it. The land grabs and new settlements make a mockery of any claims Israel might have that they want a viable Palestinian state. They don't.
Your defence of the murder of hundreds of innocent civilians by indiscriminate shelling and your attempts to pretend it is not happening is sickening and proves what a disgusting individual you are.
The new settlements are not government policy - but perpetrated by "religious nutters" to quote my Orthodox Jewish contacts. (Although he then clarified to say that it wasn't so much religious as a political Zionism that was associated with a form of the religion).
However, it is virtually impossible for the Jewish state to unilaterally remove them - it's likely to require force as this strain of Zionism views the whole of the land of Biblical Judah+Samaria as inalienably Israeli. They have done this before - when they withdrew from Gaza - but the political cost is very high without an overall agreement on many issues.
I believe there is an analogy and something to be learnt from what went on between the Provo-IRA and UK and what we see now between Hamas and Israel. I don't remember the UK destroying the Bogside in the hope of achieving some sort of peace? It doesn't work like that. There will become a time when future leaders of both factions decide that there is more to be gained from cohabitation rather than confrontation. Unfortunately the time may not be now nor even next year but one day that will have to happen. In the meantime counting the bodies on either side, as if that justifies any of what we have witnessed, seems pointless. The rest of the World will have to wait until the necessary leaders for both sides are in power (and hopefully nudge both participants in that direction).
I am surprised how quickly people have forgotten we faced a very similar situation with the IRA's campaign and how successive governments realised a negotiated solution was the only way, security policy was to contain and deescalate the conflict over many years allowing the peace process to develop despite two Prime Ministerial assassination attempts.
Not quite: the PIRA had to realise that they had no hope of winning their campaign. This was achieved by very effective intelligence-led operations and by the refusal of the mainland population to give into terrorist outrages.
Once PIRA came to the table there could be a negotiated settlement (although - whisper it quietly - it was basically a negotiated surrender by PIRA) and a close hug to make sure that it was very difficult for them to reach for the armalite in future.
If that clip capures the flavor of the debate - Darling scoring points off a currency question Salmond obviously has no answer for, Salmond quoting Darling interviews, and a moderator who was incompetent and worse than useless, it was a debate of no comment.
If that clip capures the flavor of the debate - Darling scoring points off a currency question Salmond obviously has no answer for, Salmond quoting Darling interviews, and a moderator who was incompetent and worse than useless, it was a debate of no comment.
Salmond definitely had his moments, especially when he pressed Darling whether he agreed with Cameron that Scotland could prosper as an independent country. Still, Darling won, against the expectations that Salmond would romp home. A good day for the Unionists.
If that clip capures the flavor of the debate - Darling scoring points off a currency question Salmond obviously has no answer for, Salmond quoting Darling interviews, and a moderator who was incompetent and worse than useless, it was a debate of no comment.
Salmond definitely had his moments, especially when he pressed Darling whether he agreed with Cameron that Scotland could prosper as an independent country. Still, Darling won, against the expectations that Salmond would romp home. A good day for the Unionists.
That's certainly the expectation game result. How's the city by the bay? I remember spending 2 weeks there just after the earthquake. A week at the St Francis and a week at the Hilton Tower, with the wind whistling through the elevator doors.
Now I'm back at the city by the two ebola victims. Hopefully they'll recover.
If that clip capures the flavor of the debate - Darling scoring points off a currency question Salmond obviously has no answer for, Salmond quoting Darling interviews, and a moderator who was incompetent and worse than useless, it was a debate of no comment.
Judging by the few clips I've seen so far, I wonder if it was the chair who was useless, or whether it was the format which was flawed. If the rules of the debate made it even possible for them to shout over each other, repeat the question, and say "answer the question!" with such vobulousness, then it's not a useful debate. If it were a USA Presidential debate (for example) there would be much stricter rules about who can ask questions, and when, and how much time they each have to answer in each slot.
If that clip capures the flavor of the debate - Darling scoring points off a currency question Salmond obviously has no answer for, Salmond quoting Darling interviews, and a moderator who was incompetent and worse than useless, it was a debate of no comment.
Salmond definitely had his moments, especially when he pressed Darling whether he agreed with Cameron that Scotland could prosper as an independent country. Still, Darling won, against the expectations that Salmond would romp home. A good day for the Unionists.
That's certainly the expectation game result. How's the city by the bay? I remember spending 2 weeks there just after the earthquake. A week at the St Francis and a week at the Hilton Tower, with the wind whistling through the elevator doors.
Now I'm back at the city by the two ebola victims. Hopefully they'll recover.
I'm actually up in Berkeley looking to lease an apartment, have a couple of viewings tomorrow so hopefully something will be settled. As I'm here for a while, and I'm super-cheap, I'm in a not-so-fancy motel, on the ground floor... alas! Saying that, I have stayed in the Westin St Francis previously, a level of luxury I wish I could afford on a more regular basis!
If that clip capures the flavor of the debate - Darling scoring points off a currency question Salmond obviously has no answer for, Salmond quoting Darling interviews, and a moderator who was incompetent and worse than useless, it was a debate of no comment.
Salmond definitely had his moments, especially when he pressed Darling whether he agreed with Cameron that Scotland could prosper as an independent country. Still, Darling won, against the expectations that Salmond would romp home. A good day for the Unionists.
That's certainly the expectation game result. How's the city by the bay? I remember spending 2 weeks there just after the earthquake. A week at the St Francis and a week at the Hilton Tower, with the wind whistling through the elevator doors.
Now I'm back at the city by the two ebola victims. Hopefully they'll recover.
I'm actually up in Berkeley looking to lease an apartment, have a couple of viewings tomorrow so hopefully something will be settled. As I'm here for a while, and I'm super-cheap, I'm in a not-so-fancy motel, on the ground floor... alas! Saying that, I have stayed in the Westin St Francis previously, a level of luxury I wish I could afford on a more regular basis!
If that clip capures the flavor of the debate - Darling scoring points off a currency question Salmond obviously has no answer for, Salmond quoting Darling interviews, and a moderator who was incompetent and worse than useless, it was a debate of no comment.
Salmond definitely had his moments, especially when he pressed Darling whether he agreed with Cameron that Scotland could prosper as an independent country. Still, Darling won, against the expectations that Salmond would romp home. A good day for the Unionists.
That's certainly the expectation game result. How's the city by the bay? I remember spending 2 weeks there just after the earthquake. A week at the St Francis and a week at the Hilton Tower, with the wind whistling through the elevator doors.
Now I'm back at the city by the two ebola victims. Hopefully they'll recover.
I'm actually up in Berkeley looking to lease an apartment, have a couple of viewings tomorrow so hopefully something will be settled. As I'm here for a while, and I'm super-cheap, I'm in a not-so-fancy motel, on the ground floor... alas! Saying that, I have stayed in the Westin St Francis previously, a level of luxury I wish I could afford on a more regular basis!
What brings you to the USA and San Fran?
$$$ - I'm going to be starting a job at UC Berkeley soon!
Well, maybe that should be a single '$', given our salaries :')
$$$ - I'm going to be starting a job at UC Berkeley soon!
Well, maybe that should be a single '$', given our salaries :')
Fantastic - as an academic?
We help the guys out when they do their trips through London (host parties, etc) - can you say what you discipline is?
Well I only completed my doctorate a few years ago, so not a permanent position yet! My research is in Astronomy, which is pretty sweet as it allows me to go to some pretty fantastic locations to observe the heavens.
Comments
GLASGOW, Scotland, Aug 5 (Reuters) - The leader of Scotland's campaign for independence failed to turn a U.S.-style television debate into a victory for his cause on Tuesday six weeks before Scots vote on whether to break up the United Kingdom.
In an unexpected setback for those who support a breakaway, Alex Salmond, the leader of the pro-independence Scottish National Party (SNP), didn't land a knockout blow in a lively debate against Alistair Darling, the leader of the campaign to keep Scotland in the UK.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/scotland-independence-idINL6N0QB3UD20140805
Couldn't watch the debate - but in that clip Darling comes across as more animated than I've seen him before and Salmond just looks.......tired......
Putin's answer. Back to the humanitarian mission line. And Russia is reportedly willing to go it alone to solve the humanitarian crisis, by means of tanks. At this point they have few other escalation points to save the separatist effort short term. The only realistic in between step is air-strikes.
There are rumours of a IED bombing campaign being planned by separatists and their associates deep behind the Ukraine front lines.
Its estimated that anything upto 70% of separatist fighters are non-Ukrainians.
Just one note on Israel vs Hamas. One side is better at killing than the other, its called war. Tough. What do you want in global conflicts an equal number of dead just to make it seem fair?
F**k sake grow up.
Kudos to the site! (^_-)
Please show your calculation!
@dodrade @Ally_B
Well said, both of you
http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/7vj85n0zz0/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-300714.pdf
Don't see Darling agreeing to another debate as it is hard to believe that it could go that well again. We may well have seen the last chance for yes die tonight due to an incredible lack of homework and thought by those who have apparently dedicated their political lives to this point.
He certainly did not dominate the occasion in the way some had anticipated. Indeed an instant ICM poll for the Guardian scored it 56 per cent for Mr Darling and 44 per cent for Mr Salmond.
There is, in truth, probably a tinge of disappointment in the Yes camp this morning at an opportunity seemingly missed.
• John Curtice is Professor of Politics, Strathclyde University
http://www.scotsman.com/news/john-curtice-debate-that-neglected-the-undecided-1-3500253
400 of those Ukraine soldiers encircled in the east surrendered the other day. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the rest follow now that the latest Ukraine offensive has bogged down.
It seems to me even though the Ukraine side has a big numerical advantage and has (had) a lot of armor my guess - purely from looking at lots of videos of the fighting - is that their crews are mostly newly recruited kids and they haven't had the time to train them properly so it's been fish in a barrel time with them getting cooked up in large numbers by the militia's anti-tank weapons.
The militia side on the other hand seem a lot older on average and like they've been around.
My views to a T.
However, it is virtually impossible for the Jewish state to unilaterally remove them - it's likely to require force as this strain of Zionism views the whole of the land of Biblical Judah+Samaria as inalienably Israeli. They have done this before - when they withdrew from Gaza - but the political cost is very high without an overall agreement on many issues.
Once PIRA came to the table there could be a negotiated settlement (although - whisper it quietly - it was basically a negotiated surrender by PIRA) and a close hug to make sure that it was very difficult for them to reach for the armalite in future.
Now I'm back at the city by the two ebola victims. Hopefully they'll recover.
Well, maybe that should be a single '$', given our salaries :')
We help the guys out when they do their trips through London (host parties, etc) - can you say what you discipline is?
Pity it wasn't "astrology", you might have been able to get a job in our health service. ;-)