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  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    You think killing hundreds of innocent Kids will help with the rocket thing and not create thousands of more people willing to fire them.

    Seriously?

    You don't know that "hundreds of innocent kids" have been killed; the numbers are dubious to say the least. Having said that, even one death is a stain on those involved (on both sides).

    But what is your solution for Israel? If (as you say) this won't work - what will?

    I don't expect you to like this but negotiating with Hamas is the only chance of a solution.

    Killing hundreds of innocent kids will make more future terrorists,
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    Paywall

    LABOUR MPs are demanding that Ed Balls be sacked as shadow chancellor to give their party a better chance of winning the next election.

    Left-wingers have privately called for Ed Miliband to replace his economics spokesman with Andy Burnham, the shadow health secretary, because he looks more “human” than Balls.

    Critics of Balls have taken to calling him Gromit in private, the canine sidekick to Wallace, the animated character whom the Labour leader has admitted that he resembles.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article1442371.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2014_08_02

    Burnham would be a gift for the Tories.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098



    The space that the LibDems occupy, speaking for financial sanity, combined with social support for the disadvantaged, and engagement with the international community is not one that will ever completely disappear. Political fashions wax and wane, but I expect that Millibands incoherent government, and the Tories obsessing about europe in opposition give the LDs the best chance to regenerate as the sensible centrist party that the country needs.

    Sorry, Doc, I am not sure what you mean by regenerate as a sensible centrist party. Do you mean that it isn't at the moment? What is it for, what does it want, what does it believe in.? OK we know that they like the idea of the EU and that the UK should comply with every idea that comes from Brussels, because then we have influence. What odes the LibDem party have to say to the ordinary people?
    Europe is not the main issue to most people. Daily concerns such as taxation, government spending and inflation matter far more to most people, as does the safety net of the welfare state.

    I believe that the majority of the British people want a stable growing economy, combined with a stable welfare state that can care for them if they are old or ill. I think that the Tories are sound on the finances, but will trash the welfare state, while Labour will be profligate and imperil the welfare state by crashing the economy.

    I recognise that the LibDems will need to retrench and rebuild, but they have done so in the past. The LD polling in 1990 was worse than it is now. I think this is best done on the opposition benches, providing confidence and supply as required. Perhaps the electorate needs to see what the alternative of an unstable minority government is like, in order to see the wisdom of a coalition. The coalition will be far better viewed by the public in 5 years time than it is now.
    Thanks for that, Doc. I think I'll set up a lunch for the people who believe in the same ends. We would have you from the LibDems; Nick Palmer, OldKingCole and BigJohn from the Labour tendency and from the right, well, take your pick, Mr Nabavi, AlanBrooke, Southam Observer (yes I know) and many others all round. It would be a great lunch everybody agreeing on the ends and 95% of the means, but arguing furiously about the last 5%.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @craigawoodhouse: Labour planning curbs on benefits for EU migrants- my interview with @RachelReevesMP http://t.co/7KcQKWZd1p
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Paywall

    LABOUR MPs are demanding that Ed Balls be sacked as shadow chancellor to give their party a better chance of winning the next election.

    Left-wingers have privately called for Ed Miliband to replace his economics spokesman with Andy Burnham, the shadow health secretary, because he looks more “human” than Balls.

    Critics of Balls have taken to calling him Gromit in private, the canine sidekick to Wallace, the animated character whom the Labour leader has admitted that he resembles.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article1442371.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2014_08_02

    Ignoring the obvious dangers of having 'balls' and 'sack' in the same sentence -

    Afficionados of Wallace and Gromit (I have a daughter - what's your excuse?) will know that Gromit's face is much more expressive than Wallace.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    MikeK said:

    Happy muslims:

    #MuslimAwarenessMonth Hey @BarackObama is this what we are supposed to be aware of? pic.twitter.com/lY4kTmy2Mw

    — Corporal (@drapermark37) August 2, 2014
    Hey, hey, Mike Kay
    how many Gazan kids did you kill today?
    I think we have had enough of that for one day. Nobody wants to see kids killed, we just vary in how to stop the slaughter, and whether the ability to stop it lies primarily with the Israelis or Hamas.

    Israel's true sin is this. They remind Westerners how the sausage is made. Nation-building is not nice, and people get killed along the way. Our killings are safely in the past.

    That's the most disgusting remark you have ever made, Sean F.

    Here is the "sausage being made".

    http://tinyurl.com/o9va7eb

    http://tinyurl.com/oapnon9

    http://tinyurl.com/omdf2ge

    Despicable, heartless, repulsive.

    Shame. Shame. Shame.
    SeanT. We all agree it's terrible.

    Now tell us how Israel stops Hamas firing rockets at their civilians. How they stop an organisation determined to exterminate the Jews, and that doesn't want peace. Please tell us - we all await your amazing skills at solving this seemingly intractable problem.

    ... your problem as a supporter of Likud's current policy ...
    Presuming that is part of the problem. Are you a supporter of the terrorist group Hamas?
    Mark! I've already told UKIP's Mike Kay I'm not a Muslim upthread (check). Like most Brits (hopefully), I like to support the underdog.

    Now do you really support the current "We Have To Destroy Gaza To Save It" policy? Really?

    Sunil! I know you're not a Muslim. I was making a point about presumptions.

    Why do you think I want to destroy Gaza? Just because I don't think Israel is as evil as certain people feel, doesn't mean I'm happy with their actions.

    SeanT's points, once stripped of his hyperbolism, are quite incisive. I just don't think that Israel sitting back quietly is going to get any better result than going in hard. It's all very depressing.

  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    edited August 2014

    You think killing hundreds of innocent Kids will help with the rocket thing and not create thousands of more people willing to fire them.

    Seriously?

    You don't know that "hundreds of innocent kids" have been killed; the numbers are dubious to say the least. Having said that, even one death is a stain on those involved (on both sides).

    But what is your solution for Israel? If (as you say) this won't work - what will?

    The hundreds of kids number comes from MANY independent sources. The World has condemned the disproportionate attacks on the children of Gaza. If it wasn't for the US, Israel would now be facing war crimes investigations.

    War crimes and crimes against humanity are being commited. You may be disagree but you are in a serious minority....

    My friend, you are sounding like a fool - if only the suffering in Gaza wasn't as ridiculous as your pathetic assertions....
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:

    Happy muslims:


    I travelled the other way, born to an anti-clerical atheist, and now a Christian.

    Neuro-chemistry may reveal some insights into religion, but only to the same degree that chemical analysis of paint can tell you about art.

    Clue: you need to enter an altered state of conciousness to really experience the supernatural.

    Our ancestors came across various fungi and plants containing psycho-active compounds that triggered our first wave of religiosity, namely the cave paintings during the Ice Age (say 30,000 years back) found all over the world (eg. France, Oz and S. Africa).

    Paintings that depict humans flying, being pierced with sharp devices and transforming into animals, as well as more abstract "entoptic" patterns that look like zigzags and stripes - ALL of which are experienced by those who, er, "sample" compounds like but not limited to DMT and psilocin.

    I do not think that true, neuro-chemical experiences can only provide a facsimilie of religious experience. These can be very intense, but are not are not the real thing. The Mexican Indians may consume Peyote, but that is only a small part of their religious practice. Those who seek easy access to religious experience via this route will fail. Timothy Leary was not a religious prophet, even if he was a counter-cultural one. Drug induced experiences are not comprehensible to anyone else, while true religious insight can be communicated to others.

    True religious experience, whether that of Bhudda, Jesus, Moses, Mohammad or Hindu Sadhus comes from mindful study, support from religious teachers, and tends to manifest at times of aescetic solitary meditation. (Jesus in the wilderness, Moses up a mountain in Sinai, Bhudda under a Peepul Tree near Patna, Mohammad also up a mountain etc etc; excuse me for my ignorance of Hindu spirituality but I believe that Sadhus practice similar techniques).
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    @ Sunil

    I lost the formatting there but my response is:

    I do not think that true, neuro-chemical experiences can only provide a facsimilie of religious experience. These can be very intense, but are not are not the real thing. The Mexican Indians may consume Peyote, but that is only a small part of their religious practice. Those who seek easy access to religious experience via this route will fail. Timothy Leary was not a religious prophet, even if he was a counter-cultural one. Drug induced experiences are not comprehensible to anyone else, while true religious insight can be communicated to others.

    True religious experience, whether that of Bhudda, Jesus, Moses, Mohammad or Hindu Sadhus comes from mindful study, support from religious teachers, and tends to manifest at times of aescetic solitary meditation. (Jesus in the wilderness, Moses up a mountain in Sinai, Bhudda under a Peepul Tree near Patna, Mohammad also up a mountain etc etc; excuse me for my ignorance of Hindu spirituality but I believe that Sadhus practice similar techniques)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2014



    The space that the LibDems occupy, speaking for financial sanity, combined with social support for the disadvantaged, and engagement with the international community is not one that will ever completely disappear. Political fashions wax and wane, but I expect that Millibands incoherent government, and the Tories obsessing about europe in opposition give the LDs the best chance to regenerate as the sensible centrist party that the country needs.

    Sorry, Doc, I am not sure what you mean by regenerate as a sensible centrist party. Do you mean that it isn't at the moment? What is it for, what does it want, what does it believe in.? OK we know that they like the idea of the EU and that the UK should comply with every idea that comes from Brussels, because then we have influence. What odes the LibDem party have to say to the ordinary people?
    Europe is not the main issue to most people. Daily concerns such as taxation, government spending and inflation matter far more to most people, as does the safety net of the welfare state.

    I believe that the majority of the British people want a stable growing economy, combined with a stable welfare state that can care for them if they are old or ill. I think that the Tories are sound on the finances, but will trash the welfare state, while Labour will be profligate and imperil the welfare state by crashing the economy.

    I recognise that the LibDems will need to retrench and rebuild, but they have done so in the past. The LD polling in 1990 was worse than it is now. I think this is best done on the opposition benches, providing confidence and supply as required. Perhaps the electorate needs to see what the alternative of an unstable minority government is like, in order to see the wisdom of a coalition. The coalition will be far better viewed by the public in 5 years time than it is now.
    Thanks for that, Doc. I think I'll set up a lunch for the people who believe in the same ends. We would have you from the LibDems; Nick Palmer, OldKingCole and BigJohn from the Labour tendency and from the right, well, take your pick, Mr Nabavi, AlanBrooke, Southam Observer (yes I know) and many others all round. It would be a great lunch everybody agreeing on the ends and 95% of the means, but arguing furiously about the last 5%.
    Without the food, isn't that what PB is for? and betting of course...
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    It may be completely wrong of me, but I have absolutely no idea what to say about the Gaza situation.

    I don't know who is in the wrong, nor' do I know what should even could be done to end the situation.

    Its a dreadful situation and I just wish both sides would get around the negotiating table and try to get along.

    And that's all I've got to say about that, TBH.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Did someone mention dinner. I am in.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    TSE any news on ST YG from behind the Paywall?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    @ Sunil

    I lost the formatting there but my response is:

    I do not think that true, neuro-chemical experiences can only provide a facsimilie of religious experience. These can be very intense, but are not are not the real thing. The Mexican Indians may consume Peyote, but that is only a small part of their religious practice. Those who seek easy access to religious experience via this route will fail. Timothy Leary was not a religious prophet, even if he was a counter-cultural one. Drug induced experiences are not comprehensible to anyone else, while true religious insight can be communicated to others.

    True religious experience, whether that of Bhudda, Jesus, Moses, Mohammad or Hindu Sadhus comes from mindful study, support from religious teachers, and tends to manifest at times of aescetic solitary meditation. (Jesus in the wilderness, Moses up a mountain in Sinai, Bhudda under a Peepul Tree near Patna, Mohammad also up a mountain etc etc; excuse me for my ignorance of Hindu spirituality but I believe that Sadhus practice similar techniques)

    I am what is known here as an Episcopalian. Essentially it's CofE overseas division.

    Most Episcopalians I have encountered are former members of other religions - Baptists, Methodist, Roman Catholic etc.

    The fundamental tenet seems to be that it doesn't really matter what you believe, so long as you're not too fervent about it.

    That's about as non-threatening as it gets.

    I don't know any Episcopalian who has had a 'born again' experience.
  • TSE any news on ST YG from behind the Paywall?

    Only a tiny excerpt.

    UKIP on 12%, which is nearly double what the Lib Dems are on.

  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    GIN1138 said:

    It may be completely wrong of me, but I have absolutely no idea what to say about the Gaza situation.

    I don't know who is in the wrong, nor' do I know what should even could be done to end the situation.

    Its a dreadful situation and I just wish both sides would get around the negotiating table and try to get along.

    And that's all I've got to say about that, TBH.

    I'm with you Gin, there are much better informed people on here so I read and learn.

    The only thing I will say is that any sympathy Israel had is rapidly diminishing.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    murali_s said:

    You think killing hundreds of innocent Kids will help with the rocket thing and not create thousands of more people willing to fire them.

    Seriously?

    You don't know that "hundreds of innocent kids" have been killed; the numbers are dubious to say the least. Having said that, even one death is a stain on those involved (on both sides).

    But what is your solution for Israel? If (as you say) this won't work - what will?

    The hundreds of kids number comes from MANY independent sources. The World has condemned the disproportionate attacks on the children of Gaza. If it wasn't for the US, Israel would now be facing war crimes investigations.

    War crimes and crimes against humanity are being commited. You may be disagree but you are in a serious minority....

    My friend, you are sounding like a fool - if only the suffering in Gaza wasn't as ridiculous as your pathetic assertions....
    Tell you what: Why don't you hop over to Gaza, and persuade Hamas to accept one of the many offers of peace that Israel have made. Then watch as the suffering in Gaza ceases overnight.

    Your attempt at superiority notwithstanding, you don't really have any answers, do you?

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    TSE any news on ST YG from behind the Paywall?

    Only a tiny excerpt.

    UKIP on 12%, which is nearly double what the Lib Dems are on.

    Thanks one further question any idea of the likely date of the next PB get together as Mrs BJ is about to book a get away for us and I dont know whether to protest or make sure its based in the NW
  • SeanT said:


    Very interesting and well-informed, however there are alternative arguments.

    Some zoologists have claimed to see "religious type behaviour" in the higher primates, e.g. chimpanzees witnessing a sunset. No one has seen chimps deliberately ingesting hallucinogens.

    Also, evidence for, say, a belief in the afterlife - which is surely "religious" - predates the Upper Paleolithic Revolution of the Ice Age (about 40,000 years ago) when cave art evolved.

    Humans (and Neanderthals) were ritually burying their dead as early as 100,000BC.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religions

    To tie the threads together, some of the first evidence for human religiosity comes from.... Israel.

    Sean, I am no expert (my rather mundane PhD was in the structure of an E. coli adhesin protein), I merely read a very interesting tome called "Supernatural" by Graham Hancock, so most of my knowledge stems from his work (and yes, he HAS taken pure DMT and the Amazonian brew Ayahuasca).

    He points out that throughout history around 2% of humans have the ability to spontaneously enter altered states of consciousness. without the need of "drugs". And depending on the historical context of the subject, these experiences are interpreted by them differently. So back in the medieval era, it was abductions by "fairies", in the last 50 it's been abduction by "aliens". Descriptions of these aliens are uncannily similar to descriptions of fairies back in the Middle ages, along with "surgery" and "interbreeding" - ie. changelings. To complete the triangle, some of the "teachers" seen by DMT users look like little grey men, similar to the "alien abductees". Note - not little green men!

    I will state as I said before you need to alter your state of consciousness to really experience the supernatural, so it's ironic that modern cultures have banned outright the very substances that our ancestors used to experience such altered states.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited August 2014
    Balls is going to change EU policy.

    LabourList..

    'Ed Balls has made the strongest suggestion yet that Labour would put an end to free movement within the EU if we were to win next year’s election. In an interview with The Telegraph today, he said that by doing so we would “show we understand the concerns of some Labour voters who voted UKIP in the European elections.”
  • TSE any news on ST YG from behind the Paywall?

    Only a tiny excerpt.

    UKIP on 12%, which is nearly double what the Lib Dems are on.

    Thanks one further question any idea of the likely date of the next PB get together as Mrs BJ is about to book a get away for us and I dont know whether to protest or make sure its based in the NW
    Evening of Tuesday the 23rd of September in Manchester (during the Lab conference)
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    TSE any news on ST YG from behind the Paywall?

    Only a tiny excerpt.

    UKIP on 12%, which is nearly double what the Lib Dems are on.

    Thanks one further question any idea of the likely date of the next PB get together as Mrs BJ is about to book a get away for us and I dont know whether to protest or make sure its based in the NW
    Might be a good idea to change her name from Mrs BJ
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    She doesnt answer to it or live up to it unfortunately
  • She doesnt answer to it or live up to it unfortunately

    They say for a woman after 2 glasses of wine, it increases the chances of a stroke.

    After 4 glasses, she'll definitely [moderated] it
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067

    murali_s said:

    You think killing hundreds of innocent Kids will help with the rocket thing and not create thousands of more people willing to fire them.

    Seriously?

    You don't know that "hundreds of innocent kids" have been killed; the numbers are dubious to say the least. Having said that, even one death is a stain on those involved (on both sides).

    But what is your solution for Israel? If (as you say) this won't work - what will?

    The hundreds of kids number comes from MANY independent sources. The World has condemned the disproportionate attacks on the children of Gaza. If it wasn't for the US, Israel would now be facing war crimes investigations.

    War crimes and crimes against humanity are being commited. You may be disagree but you are in a serious minority....

    My friend, you are sounding like a fool - if only the suffering in Gaza wasn't as ridiculous as your pathetic assertions....
    Tell you what: Why don't you hop over to Gaza, and persuade Hamas to accept one of the many offers of peace that Israel have made. Then watch as the suffering in Gaza ceases overnight.

    Your attempt at superiority notwithstanding, you don't really have any answers, do you?

    But at least my answer would not be to carpet-bomb innocent children, so yes I do claim superiority (over the terrorist Government of Netanyahu).
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Tim_B said:

    @ Sunil

    I lost the formatting there but my response is:

    I do not think that true, neuro-chemical experiences can only provide a facsimilie of religious experience. These can be very intense, but are not are not the real thing. The Mexican Indians may consume Peyote, but that is only a small part of their religious practice. Those who seek easy access to religious experience via this route will fail. Timothy Leary was not a religious prophet, even if he was a counter-cultural one. Drug induced experiences are not comprehensible to anyone else, while true religious insight can be communicated to others.

    True religious experience, whether that of Bhudda, Jesus, Moses, Mohammad or Hindu Sadhus comes from mindful study, support from religious teachers, and tends to manifest at times of aescetic solitary meditation. (Jesus in the wilderness, Moses up a mountain in Sinai, Bhudda under a Peepul Tree near Patna, Mohammad also up a mountain etc etc; excuse me for my ignorance of Hindu spirituality but I believe that Sadhus practice similar techniques)

    I am what is known here as an Episcopalian. Essentially it's CofE overseas division.

    Most Episcopalians I have encountered are former members of other religions - Baptists, Methodist, Roman Catholic etc.

    The fundamental tenet seems to be that it doesn't really matter what you believe, so long as you're not too fervent about it.

    That's about as non-threatening as it gets.

    I don't know any Episcopalian who has had a 'born again' experience.
    I go (intermittently) to a Non-conforming Free Church, and like my chosen LD party, it is a place where I fit, but not without some areas that rub and irritate!

    There are levels of intensity in religious experience, and I believe that God reveals himself to different people in different ways that are best suited to them, and to their situation and needs.

    Not all of us need a Pauline blinding flash that lifts the scales from our eyes (though that is pretty much my own personal experience). I rather like the description religious experience that one of my Church made in a discussion group on this topic "My own experience of the presence of God is like a 10 Watt bulb, I am aware it is always on, but not so brightly as to distract me from seeing other things"


  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    I don’t pretend to have an answer for the Israeli-Gaza situation. I wish I did.

    One of the stats I keep hearing is that the Gaza strip is about the size of Detroit.

    Imagine if the good folk of Windsor, Ontario started lobbing rockets northwards into the city of Detroit, Michigan.

    Would the folks in Detroit say “Let them fire all the rockets they like – they’ve not killed anyone.”? Of course not.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    john_zims said:

    Balls is going to change EU policy.

    LabourList..

    'Ed Balls has made the strongest suggestion yet that Labour would put an end to free movement within the EU if we were to win next year’s election. In an interview with The Telegraph today, he said that by doing so we would “show we understand the concerns of some Labour voters who voted UKIP in the European elections.”

    Has he changed his name to King Canute?
  • Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 185
    Mark, this problem will eventually be solved in the same way as the Northern Ireland difficulties were overcome. Until there is willing on both sides to go down that path then we are fated to see more of the same in the years to come. I agree with SeanT's analysis. As a Christian I believe what is written in Ezekiel 24:14. We can debate who that text favours but it is unlikely to be for Israel because of their disproportionate response. You've found a few tunnels? Blow them up and expose what has been going on. The alternative response appears to be lay waste to km of land, kill thousands and say that justifies the loss of one or two of your own. Look in the mirror and say why this should not be seen as the reverse of "meme, meme, tickle, upharsin?" For the rest of us, can the LD's recover sufficient to hold the balance of power at the next election?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited August 2014
    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    You think killing hundreds of innocent Kids will help with the rocket thing and not create thousands of more people willing to fire them.

    Seriously?

    You don't know that "hundreds of innocent kids" have been killed; the numbers are dubious to say the least. Having said that, even one death is a stain on those involved (on both sides).

    But what is your solution for Israel? If (as you say) this won't work - what will?

    The hundreds of kids number comes from MANY independent sources. The World has condemned the disproportionate attacks on the children of Gaza. If it wasn't for the US, Israel would now be facing war crimes investigations.

    War crimes and crimes against humanity are being commited. You may be disagree but you are in a serious minority....

    My friend, you are sounding like a fool - if only the suffering in Gaza wasn't as ridiculous as your pathetic assertions....
    Tell you what: Why don't you hop over to Gaza, and persuade Hamas to accept one of the many offers of peace that Israel have made. Then watch as the suffering in Gaza ceases overnight.

    Your attempt at superiority notwithstanding, you don't really have any answers, do you?

    But at least my answer would not be to carpet-bomb innocent children, so yes I do claim superiority (over the terrorist Government of Netanyahu).
    I don't think that Israel are "carpet-bombing" innocent children.

    What is your (workable) solution?

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    She doesnt answer to it or live up to it unfortunately

    They say for a woman after 2 glasses of wine, it increases the chances of a stroke.

    After 4 glasses, she'll definitely [moderated] it
    Spooky she is just opening her second bottle as we speak,

    What shall i do?

    Is it normal after 22 years of marriage to be more interested in PB than counting wine consumption?
  • john_zims said:

    Balls is going to change EU policy.

    LabourList..

    'Ed Balls has made the strongest suggestion yet that Labour would put an end to free movement within the EU if we were to win next year’s election. In an interview with The Telegraph today, he said that by doing so we would “show we understand the concerns of some Labour voters who voted UKIP in the European elections.”

    Has he changed his name to King Canute?
    The whole point of King Canute's trying to stop the tide advancing was to show that even he, as King of England, Norway and Denmark (which back then included southern Sweden) couldn't defeat the forces of nature.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Ally_B said:

    [T]his problem will eventually be solved in the same way as the Northern Ireland difficulties were overcome. Until there is willing on both sides to go down that path then we are fated to see more of the same in the years to come.

    Agreed.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    @ Sunil

    I lost the formatting there but my response is:

    I do not think that true, neuro-chemical experiences can only provide a facsimilie of religious experience. These can be very intense, but are not are not the real thing. The Mexican Indians may consume Peyote, but that is only a small part of their religious practice. Those who seek easy access to religious experience via this route will fail. Timothy Leary was not a religious prophet, even if he was a counter-cultural one. Drug induced experiences are not comprehensible to anyone else, while true religious insight can be communicated to others.

    True religious experience, whether that of Bhudda, Jesus, Moses, Mohammad or Hindu Sadhus comes from mindful study, support from religious teachers, and tends to manifest at times of aescetic solitary meditation. (Jesus in the wilderness, Moses up a mountain in Sinai, Bhudda under a Peepul Tree near Patna, Mohammad also up a mountain etc etc; excuse me for my ignorance of Hindu spirituality but I believe that Sadhus practice similar techniques)

    I am what is known here as an Episcopalian. Essentially it's CofE overseas division.

    Most Episcopalians I have encountered are former members of other religions - Baptists, Methodist, Roman Catholic etc.

    The fundamental tenet seems to be that it doesn't really matter what you believe, so long as you're not too fervent about it.

    That's about as non-threatening as it gets.

    I don't know any Episcopalian who has had a 'born again' experience.
    I go (intermittently) to a Non-conforming Free Church, and like my chosen LD party, it is a place where I fit, but not without some areas that rub and irritate!

    There are levels of intensity in religious experience, and I believe that God reveals himself to different people in different ways that are best suited to them, and to their situation and needs.

    Not all of us need a Pauline blinding flash that lifts the scales from our eyes (though that is pretty much my own personal experience). I rather like the description religious experience that one of my Church made in a discussion group on this topic "My own experience of the presence of God is like a 10 Watt bulb, I am aware it is always on, but not so brightly as to distract me from seeing other things"


    The Almighty's presence must be on the increase - with the disappearance of incandescent light bulbs, there are many more 10 watt bulbs than there used to be.

    One of my best lines - I always wanted to see my name in lights, so I changed it to filament - doesn't work any more. :-(
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    She doesnt answer to it or live up to it unfortunately

    They say for a woman after 2 glasses of wine, it increases the chances of a stroke.

    After 4 glasses, she'll definitely [moderated] it
    Spooky she is just opening her second bottle as we speak,

    What shall i do?

    Is it normal after 22 years of marriage to be more interested in PB than counting wine consumption?
    Goodnight it looks like TSE was right I am in luck

    She just agreed to make my supper!!!!
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Ally_B said:

    [T]his problem will eventually be solved in the same way as the Northern Ireland difficulties were overcome. Until there is willing on both sides to go down that path then we are fated to see more of the same in the years to come.

    Agreed.
    You may well be right - CNN interviewed George Mitchell this afternoon.

    One of the more awful issues is that stopping the slaughter doesn't solve the probplem.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    john_zims said:

    Balls is going to change EU policy.

    LabourList..

    'Ed Balls has made the strongest suggestion yet that Labour would put an end to free movement within the EU if we were to win next year’s election. In an interview with The Telegraph today, he said that by doing so we would “show we understand the concerns of some Labour voters who voted UKIP in the European elections.”

    Has he changed his name to King Canute?
    The whole point of King Canute's trying to stop the tide advancing was to show that even he, as King of England, Norway and Denmark (which back then included southern Sweden) couldn't defeat the forces of nature.
    Canute had more chance of stopping the tides than Balls has of changing EU policy.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    SeanT said:

    Tim_B said:

    I don’t pretend to have an answer for the Israeli-Gaza situation. I wish I did.

    One of the stats I keep hearing is that the Gaza strip is about the size of Detroit.

    Imagine if the good folk of Windsor, Ontario started lobbing rockets northwards into the city of Detroit, Michigan.

    Would the folks in Detroit say “Let them fire all the rockets they like – they’ve not killed anyone.”? Of course not.

    Your analogy is flawed from the start. Is Windsor surrounding and blockading Detroit? Or vice versa? Is Detroit (or Windsor) restricting the average calorie intake in the other city? And would either side, having experienced nasty but non lethal rocket fire for a few years, then turn around and brutally invade the other with a vastly superior military force, killing 1,500 people, many of them women and kids?

    If that happened, I suspect you would look askance on Detroit (or Windsor - who knows what you mean, as your comparison is so clumsy).

    Other than that, nice allegory.
    I am not going to say that however many folks have been killed is acceptable, justifiable etc. Of course it isn't.

    At the end of the day, to quote Bill Clinton, with regard to an enemy you can either talk to him or kill him - there is no third option. Until both sides reach the 'talk' position, there is no lasting solution to this.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    @ Sunil

    Bollocks. I found God on a mixture of LSD and amphetamine sulphate. In Regent's Park about 30 years ago. The hallucinations were intense and overwhelming, and also quite frightening, I believe I saw into a greater, more daunting, yet more beautiful reality. I was already, perhaps, edging closer to faith from the usual stance of adolescent atheism, but the drugs accelerated everything - and I still believe in God three decades later and my faith saved me from killing muself with heroin.

    To deny that mind-alteration is a fast route to faith is absurd. Arguably most of the great religious mystics gained knowledge of God from some kind of psychotropic experience - fasting, constant prayer, drugs, flagellation (producing endorphines), intense terror (cf Dostoevsky) or indeed loneliness and meditation (which produces particular brain waves just like drugs).

    This is the high road to God. People generally do not come to God by reading books.

    You're a doctor. You should know all this. Tut.
    I am sure that you had a life altering experience, perhaps even one sent by God, but IMHO it is not true religious experience unless it can be explained to others.

    If mind altering drugs were a shortcut to religious revalation than the drug addicts I see in clinic would be spiritual people, rather than sad people who are destroying the lives of themselves and others.

    Established religions are pretty consistent in how they believe religious revelation is found: from a supportive group of fellow seekers after truth, from others who have experienced revelations, from the texts and books written by others with experience, and most importantly from direct prayer and meditation without distraction.

    I am perhaps showing my Scots Presbyterian ancestry in believing that nothing worthwhile comes without a lot of hard work, and that easy shortcuts are are a snare and delusion for the unwary.

    Having said all that I am rather found of mind altering substances: in my case single malts and French reds, I just do not believe that the experiences are religious ones!

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    First - Sleazy broken Kippers on the slide.

    And to think all those Kippers that criticised David for pointing out the polling trend that UKIP are falling back since the Euros, have a look at this poll

    Not much consolation for us LDs though.
    Coalition outpolls Labour, there's your consolation.
    I am a pro-coalition LD, it is true, but these figures put both coalition parties into opposition.
    Not necessrily if they were not to fight each other in their own seats. But could they fight an a common platform? They nprumably will have vote together on the next budget and financial statement.
    I think it would be very unwise for the LDs to run in a coupon election, on a joint ticket. There would lie the path of the National Liberals of the forties and oblivion.

    If the LDs are to revive, then at most they must be involved in confidence and supply.

    They need to be in opposition to regenerate. and faced by an imploding Tory party and a hapless Milliband government, have their best chance to do so.

    I think that if the Tories had a majority in 2010, then the LDs would be doing very well at present, with both Cameron and Miliband trailing in a second Cleggasm. But history is full of might have beens..
    If you follow that logic then Hezza was the first (National) Liberal DPM since the 20s, not Clegg...
    The National Liberals were eventually absorbed by the Tories, as were the coupon Liberals of the twenties, and in the 19th century also. To go into coalition again would risk a fourth absorbtion, and the rump LDs would take a very long time to recover.

    And, for me, that's why the 20th century, no less than the 19th, was a Liberal century. So many of the Tory leadership throughout the period were Liberal Unionists/National Liberals. Even Thatcher was a Radical.

    The social authoritarianism so beloved by many in UKIP has never been the heart and soul of the Tory party.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    I don't know, Doc, I but I can't for the life of me see what the LibDems are for. Two parties in one each defined by what they aren't and with no discernible unifying idea other than perhaps that the UK should be subsumed into some sort of European state.

    The world has turned again, the LibDems seem stuck in a time that has passed; afraid to acknowledge where we now are because that would mean confronting their own internal contradictions. If the Party were a beloved family pet it would be on the way to a final visit to the vet, best not to prolong suffering.

    The space that the LibDems occupy, speaking for financial sanity, combined with social support for the disadvantaged, and engagement with the international community is not one that will ever completely disappear. Political fashions wax and wane, but I expect that Millibands incoherent government, and the Tories obsessing about europe in opposition give the LDs the best chance to regenerate as the sensible centrist party that the country needs.

    The problem is that they don't appear to *actually* offer that (economically sensible / socially aware).

    We are still borrowing £100bn a year. Deep cuts need to be made. And yet, the LibDems seem proudest of rejecting all necessary changes.

    The economic/social nexus you are looking for is the heart of the Conservative Party.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    SeanT said:

    Tim_B said:

    SeanT said:

    Tim_B said:

    I don’t pretend to have an answer for the Israeli-Gaza situation. I wish I did.


    Your analogy is flawed from the start. Is Windsor surrounding and blockading Detroit? Or vice versa? Is Detroit (or Windsor) restricting the average calorie intake in the other city? And would either side, having experienced nasty but non lethal rocket fire for a few years, then turn around and brutally invade the other with a vastly superior military force, killing 1,500 people, many of them women and kids?

    If that happened, I suspect you would look askance on Detroit (or Windsor - who knows what you mean, as your comparison is so clumsy).

    Other than that, nice allegory.
    I am not going to say that however many folks have been killed is acceptable, justifiable etc. Of course it isn't.

    At the end of the day, to quote Bill Clinton, with regard to an enemy you can either talk to him or kill him - there is no third option. Until both sides reach the 'talk' position, there is no lasting solution to this.
    I seriously believe you have to go to Gaza, Sinai, Israel, the West Bank and Lebanon to genuinely understand the history and the problem. I thought you had been there cause of your prior career?

    Anyway: Israel really is hemmed in - it's a tiny country you can drive across in maybe an hour, at its narrowest - Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. Hence understandable Israeli paranoia. And most of Israel can be hit by rubbishy missiles from Gaza (let alone big enemies with big missiles like Iran).

    Yet, equally the West Bank is now a series of Bantustans and rather apartheidy walls and "Jewish-only" roads.

    Even worse, Gaza really is a vast open-air concentration camp, surrounded by enormous walls with gun towers and armed patrols, keeping everyone inside. Gaza is, without question, the most shocking spectacle of all.

    The only way peace *might* be achieved is by Israel, the comparatively powerful, reaching out to Gaza, the comparatively weak, and acting generously: lift the blockade, refuse to over-react to missiles, stop illegal settlements, demolish the extant settlements.

    Of course it will be tough for Israel but it will be tough for Palestinians, who will have to accept that the land once theirs (Israel itself) is gone for ever.

    It will take exceptional leadership on both sides. At present both sides are led by cretins, liars and warmongers.
    I am aware of the history and geography involved - and of the intractable positions each participant has assumed.

    You have summed it up well.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    Tim_B said:

    SeanT said:

    Tim_B said:

    I don’t pretend to have an answer for the Israeli-Gaza situation. I wish I did.

    One of the stats I keep hearing is that the Gaza strip is about the size of Detroit.

    Imagine if the good folk of Windsor, Ontario started lobbing rockets northwards into the city of Detroit, Michigan.

    Would the folks in Detroit say “Let them fire all the rockets they like – they’ve not killed anyone.”? Of course not.

    Your analogy is flawed.
    I am not
    I seriously believe you have to go to Gaza, Sinai, Israel, the West Bank and Lebanon to genuinely understand the history and the problem. I thought you had been there cause of your prior career?

    Anyway: Israel really is hemmed in - it's a tiny country you can drive across in maybe an hour, at its narrowest - Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. Hence understandable Israeli paranoia. And most of Israel can be hit by rubbishy missiles from Gaza (let alone big enemies with big missiles like Iran).

    Yet, equally the West Bank is now a series of Bantustans and rather apartheidy walls and "Jewish-only" roads.

    Even worse, Gaza really is a vast open-air concentration camp, surrounded by enormous walls with gun towers and armed patrols, keeping everyone inside. Gaza is, without question, the most shocking spectacle of all.

    The only way peace *might* be achieved is by Israel, the comparatively powerful, reaching out to Gaza, the comparatively weak, and acting generously: lift the blockade, refuse to over-react to missiles, stop illegal settlements, demolish the extant settlements.

    Of course it will be tough for Israel but it will be tough for Palestinians, who will have to accept that the land once theirs (Israel itself) is gone for ever.

    It will take exceptional leadership on both sides. At present both sides are led by cretins, liars and warmongers.
    My final post for the night: I agree with SeanT on the description of Israel and the Palestinian territories (though differ on some issues, the barbed wire around Gaza and the West Bank wall are prisons made essential by the actions of those incarcerated for example).

    Both populations are full of people who mostly want to get on with the mundane pleasures of family life, but both are politically dominated by religious zealots who gain their political influence by radicalising the conflict, and keeping it going.

    By their very nature these zealots are not of the "10 Watt, keep it all in proportion type", but rather are those who see nothing else other than what is in their searchlight.

    If only sensible centrists could rule in both territories!, if only they both had similtaneous Cleggasms!

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    MikeK said:

    Happy muslims:

    #MuslimAwarenessMonth Hey @BarackObama is this what we are supposed to be aware of? pic.twitter.com/lY4kTmy2Mw

    — Corporal (@drapermark37) August 2, 2014
    Hey, hey, Mike Kay
    how many Gazan kids did you kill today?
    I think we have had enough of that for one day. Nobody wants to see kids killed, we just vary in how to stop the slaughter, and whether the ability to stop it lies primarily with the Israelis or Hamas.

    Israel's true sin is this. They remind Westerners how the sausage is made. Nation-building is not nice, and people get killed along the way. Our killings are safely in the past.

    That's the most disgusting remark you have ever made, Sean F.

    Here is the "sausage being made".

    http://tinyurl.com/o9va7eb

    http://tinyurl.com/oapnon9

    http://tinyurl.com/omdf2ge

    Despicable, heartless, repulsive.

    Shame. Shame. Shame.
    Sean. We all agree it's terrible.

    Now tell us how Israel stops Hamas firing rockets at their civilians. How they stop an organisation determined to exterminate the Jews, and that doesn't want peace. Please tell us - we all await your amazing skills at solving this seemingly intractable problem.

    Well, not killing 1500 Gazans in a month would be a good place to start. Baby steps, and all that.

    And when Hamas fires a rocket that scares, but kills no one, respond proportionately. i.e. Send a rocket which scares but kills no one. At the same time lift the non-military blockade. e.g. Stop the present policy of keeping Gaza on the "brink of collapse" through calorific restrictions etc

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/17/israel-gaza-blockade_n_1973015.html


    The non-military blockade which, along with the Wall, has been the critical factor in stopping suicide bombers terrorising Israeli citizens?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Tim_B said:

    @ Sunil

    I lost the formatting there but my response is:

    I do not think that true, neuro-chemical experiences can only provide a facsimilie of religious experience. These can be very intense, but are not are not the real thing. The Mexican Indians may consume Peyote, but that is only a small part of their religious practice. Those who seek easy access to religious experience via this route will fail. Timothy Leary was not a religious prophet, even if he was a counter-cultural one. Drug induced experiences are not comprehensible to anyone else, while true religious insight can be communicated to others.

    True religious experience, whether that of Bhudda, Jesus, Moses, Mohammad or Hindu Sadhus comes from mindful study, support from religious teachers, and tends to manifest at times of aescetic solitary meditation. (Jesus in the wilderness, Moses up a mountain in Sinai, Bhudda under a Peepul Tree near Patna, Mohammad also up a mountain etc etc; excuse me for my ignorance of Hindu spirituality but I believe that Sadhus practice similar techniques)

    I am what is known here as an Episcopalian. Essentially it's CofE overseas division.

    Most Episcopalians I have encountered are former members of other religions - Baptists, Methodist, Roman Catholic etc.

    The fundamental tenet seems to be that it doesn't really matter what you believe, so long as you're not too fervent about it.

    That's about as non-threatening as it gets.

    I don't know any Episcopalian who has had a 'born again' experience.
    I believe ++Justin did
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    SeanT said:


    Very interesting and well-informed, however there are alternative arguments.

    Some zoologists have claimed to see "religious type behaviour" in the higher primates, e.g. chimpanzees witnessing a sunset. No one has seen chimps deliberately ingesting hallucinogens.

    Also, evidence for, say, a belief in the afterlife - which is surely "religious" - predates the Upper Paleolithic Revolution of the Ice Age (about 40,000 years ago) when cave art evolved.

    Humans (and Neanderthals) were ritually burying their dead as early as 100,000BC.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religions

    To tie the threads together, some of the first evidence for human religiosity comes from.... Israel.

    Sean, I am no expert (my rather mundane PhD was in the structure of an E. coli adhesin protein), I merely read a very interesting tome called "Supernatural" by Graham Hancock, so most of my knowledge stems from his work (and yes, he HAS taken pure DMT and the Amazonian brew Ayahuasca).

    He points out that throughout history around 2% of humans have the ability to spontaneously enter altered states of consciousness. without the need of "drugs". And depending on the historical context of the subject, these experiences are interpreted by them differently. So back in the medieval era, it was abductions by "fairies", in the last 50 it's been abduction by "aliens". Descriptions of these aliens are uncannily similar to descriptions of fairies back in the Middle ages, along with "surgery" and "interbreeding" - ie. changelings. To complete the triangle, some of the "teachers" seen by DMT users look like little grey men, similar to the "alien abductees". Note - not little green men!

    I will state as I said before you need to alter your state of consciousness to really experience the supernatural, so it's ironic that modern cultures have banned outright the very substances that our ancestors used to experience such altered states.
    That's the Graham Hancock who believes aliens built the Pyramids, right?

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Charles said:



    I don't know, Doc, I but I can't for the life of me see what the LibDems are for. Two parties in one each defined by what they aren't and with no discernible unifying idea other than perhaps that the UK should be subsumed into some sort of European state.

    The world has turned again, the LibDems seem stuck in a time that has passed; afraid to acknowledge where we now are because that would mean confronting their own internal contradictions. If the Party were a beloved family pet it would be on the way to a final visit to the vet, best not to prolong suffering.

    The space that the LibDems occupy, speaking for financial sanity, combined with social support for the disadvantaged, and engagement with the international community is not one that will ever completely disappear. Political fashions wax and wane, but I expect that Millibands incoherent government, and the Tories obsessing about europe in opposition give the LDs the best chance to regenerate as the sensible centrist party that the country needs.

    The problem is that they don't appear to *actually* offer that (economically sensible / socially aware).

    We are still borrowing £100bn a year. Deep cuts need to be made. And yet, the LibDems seem proudest of rejecting all necessary changes.

    The economic/social nexus you are looking for is the heart of the Conservative Party.
    I do not think it is, and I think that you do not give Danny Alexander the credit he deserves. I could have fitted in Heaths party, or MacMillans, but not in Thatchers or Farages.

    I will vote LD in the next election, it is where my heart lies.

    And it really is time for bed now!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:



    I don't know, Doc, I but I can't for the life of me see what the LibDems are for. Two parties in one each defined by what they aren't and with no discernible unifying idea other than perhaps that the UK should be subsumed into some sort of European state.

    The world has turned again, the LibDems seem stuck in a time that has passed; afraid to acknowledge where we now are because that would mean confronting their own internal contradictions. If the Party were a beloved family pet it would be on the way to a final visit to the vet, best not to prolong suffering.

    The space that the LibDems occupy, speaking for financial sanity, combined with social support for the disadvantaged, and engagement with the international community is not one that will ever completely disappear. Political fashions wax and wane, but I expect that Millibands incoherent government, and the Tories obsessing about europe in opposition give the LDs the best chance to regenerate as the sensible centrist party that the country needs.

    The problem is that they don't appear to *actually* offer that (economically sensible / socially aware).

    We are still borrowing £100bn a year. Deep cuts need to be made. And yet, the LibDems seem proudest of rejecting all necessary changes.

    The economic/social nexus you are looking for is the heart of the Conservative Party.
    I do not think it is, and I think that you do not give Danny Alexander the credit he deserves. I could have fitted in Heaths party, or MacMillans, but not in Thatchers or Farages.

    I will vote LD in the next election, it is where my heart lies.

    And it really is time for bed now!
    Only by omission - if the LibDems were the Orange Bookers only then I would be delighted to vote for them. It's the likes of Faron and Cable that dilute the appeal.

    And I think Cameron is more in the Macmillian trend and valiantly resisting Farage. It's almost your moral duty to help him in his quest ;-)
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844
    john_zims said:

    Balls is going to change EU policy.

    LabourList..

    'Ed Balls has made the strongest suggestion yet that Labour would put an end to free movement within the EU if we were to win next year’s election. In an interview with The Telegraph today, he said that by doing so we would “show we understand the concerns of some Labour voters who voted UKIP in the European elections.”

    So they aren't going to come up with a policy because they believe it is the right action for the UK, they are going to come up with something to 'show' that they understand. Which sounds remarkably like putting style before substance.

    You don't devise policy to show that you understand, you devise policy because you think it is the right best solution for the given situation and that you can implement that policy effectively to deliver the right results.

    And Labour can't put an end to free movement within the EU - it is not possible or desirable. How would Polly get to her villa in Tuscany?!

    Free movement within the EU is not the problem - the problem is people who arrive from outside the EU and then exploit the freedom of movement.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @oxfordsimon

    'You don't devise policy to show that you understand, you devise policy because you think it is the right best solution for the given situation and that you can implement that policy effectively to deliver the right results.'

    Agree, complete nonsense.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    edited August 2014
    SeanT mentioned Gaza being the size of Detroit (or whatever).

    The way I think of it is that (in terms of area, not population):
    * Israel is the size of Wales;
    * West Bank is the size of Devon;
    * Gaza is the size of the Isle of Wight.

    If you want to factor in population as well:
    * Gaza is about the size of a quarter of Greater London.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    (OT) I am currently reading through the Inspector Morse novels by Colin Dexter. So far I have read 4 and a bit of them. I am currently on "Service of All the Dead" (which was written in 1979).

    It is a bit odd because there is a slight undercurrent of homophobia running through it; a few of the characters have made some comments in passing about homosexuals in a way which virtually conflates homosexuality with paedophilia and "bu-*-*-ering choirboys". So far (I have got about half way through the book) there doesn't seem to be any context in which such comments are relevant to the plot or necessary to the story. I hope it develops to some sort of explanation in the "reveal" phase, otherwise my opinion of Mr Dexter may be revised down slightly.
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543

    UKIP drops to its lowest point since February 2013 with Opinium

    Hmmmm according to UKPR UKIP polled 15% on the 4th October 2013 (directly after the Tory conference?) in an Observer Opinum poll.

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2



  • Charles said:

    SeanT said:


    Very interesting and well-informed, however there are alternative arguments.

    Some zoologists have claimed to see "religious type behaviour" in the higher primates, e.g. chimpanzees witnessing a sunset. No one has seen chimps deliberately ingesting hallucinogens.

    Also, evidence for, say, a belief in the afterlife - which is surely "religious" - predates the Upper Paleolithic Revolution of the Ice Age (about 40,000 years ago) when cave art evolved.

    Humans (and Neanderthals) were ritually burying their dead as early as 100,000BC.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religions

    To tie the threads together, some of the first evidence for human religiosity comes from.... Israel.

    Sean, I am no expert (my rather mundane PhD was in the structure of an E. coli adhesin protein), I merely read a very interesting tome called "Supernatural" by Graham Hancock, so most of my knowledge stems from his work (and yes, he HAS taken pure DMT and the Amazonian brew Ayahuasca).

    He points out that throughout history around 2% of humans have the ability to spontaneously enter altered states of consciousness. without the need of "drugs". And depending on the historical context of the subject, these experiences are interpreted by them differently. So back in the medieval era, it was abductions by "fairies", in the last 50 it's been abduction by "aliens". Descriptions of these aliens are uncannily similar to descriptions of fairies back in the Middle ages, along with "surgery" and "interbreeding" - ie. changelings. To complete the triangle, some of the "teachers" seen by DMT users look like little grey men, similar to the "alien abductees". Note - not little green men!

    I will state as I said before you need to alter your state of consciousness to really experience the supernatural, so it's ironic that modern cultures have banned outright the very substances that our ancestors used to experience such altered states.
    That's the Graham Hancock who believes aliens built the Pyramids, right?

    No, that's not what he believes. Where did you read that?

    BTW I wrote this:
    http://www.grahamhancock.com/archive/underworld/DrSunilAtlantis.php
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited August 2014

    Charles said:



    That's the Graham Hancock who believes aliens built the Pyramids, right?

    No, that's not what he believes. Where did you read that?

    BTW I wrote this:
    http://www.grahamhancock.com/archive/underworld/DrSunilAtlantis.php
    some previously enigmatic ancient but highly advanced civilization had existed in prehistory, one which served as the common progenitor civilization to all subsequent known ancient historical ones. Supposedly, sometime around the end of the last Ice Age this civilization ended in cataclysm,[1] but passed on to its inheritors profound knowledge of such things as astronomy, architecture, and mathematics.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprints_of_the_Gods

    Sorry - he tends to be on the same shelf as other pseudohistorians and pseudoscientists who believe that. He just goes for a superior mother civilisation that existed in ancient times and was the progenetor of all known historical and modern civilisations.

    Err, right.

    *Moves on quickly from man with beard muttering into his ale*
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    SeanT said:


    Very interesting and well-informed, however there are alternative arguments.

    Some zoologists have claimed to see "religious type behaviour" in the higher primates, e.g. chimpanzees witnessing a sunset. No one has seen chimps deliberately ingesting hallucinogens.

    Also, evidence for, say, a belief in the afterlife - which is surely "religious" - predates the Upper Paleolithic Revolution of the Ice Age (about 40,000 years ago) when cave art evolved.

    Humans (and Neanderthals) were ritually burying their dead as early as 100,000BC.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religions

    To tie the threads together, some of the first evidence for human religiosity comes from.... Israel.

    Sean, I am no expert (my rather mundane PhD was in the structure of an E. coli adhesin protein), I merely read a very interesting tome called "Supernatural" by Graham Hancock, so most of my knowledge stems from his work (and yes, he HAS taken pure DMT and the Amazonian brew Ayahuasca).

    He points out that throughout history around 2% of humans have the ability to spontaneously enter altered states of consciousness. without the need of "drugs". And depending on the historical context of the subject, these experiences are interpreted by them differently. So back in the medieval era, it was abductions by "fairies", in the last 50 it's been abduction by "aliens". Descriptions of these aliens are uncannily similar to descriptions of fairies back in the Middle ages, along with "surgery" and "interbreeding" - ie. changelings. To complete the triangle, some of the "teachers" seen by DMT users look like little grey men, similar to the "alien abductees". Note - not little green men!

    I will state as I said before you need to alter your state of consciousness to really experience the supernatural, so it's ironic that modern cultures have banned outright the very substances that our ancestors used to experience such altered states.
    That's the Graham Hancock who believes aliens built the Pyramids, right?

    No, that's not what he believes. Where did you read that?

    BTW I wrote this:
    http://www.grahamhancock.com/archive/underworld/DrSunilAtlantis.php
    Thera is the most likely location, although the Black Sea theory is also appealing.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382


    UKIP drops to its lowest point since February 2013 with Opinium

    Hmmmm according to UKPR UKIP polled 15% on the 4th October 2013 (directly after the Tory conference?) in an Observer Opinum poll.

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2



    Indeed that was the same level but not the "lowest point" which was February 2013
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    Lab lead at 3 - Latest YouGov / Sunday Times results 1st August - Con 35%, Lab 38%, LD 7%, UKIP 12%; APP -20
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    edited August 2014
    Labour's lead is down 1% on YG's previous poll.
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    edited August 2014
    Test
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:



    That's the Graham Hancock who believes aliens built the Pyramids, right?

    No, that's not what he believes. Where did you read that?

    BTW I wrote this:
    http://www.grahamhancock.com/archive/underworld/DrSunilAtlantis.php
    some previously enigmatic ancient but highly advanced civilization had existed in prehistory, one which served as the common progenitor civilization to all subsequent known ancient historical ones. Supposedly, sometime around the end of the last Ice Age this civilization ended in cataclysm,[1] but passed on to its inheritors profound knowledge of such things as astronomy, architecture, and mathematics.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprints_of_the_Gods

    Sorry - he tends to be on the same shelf as other pseudohistorians and pseudoscientists who believe that. He just goes for a superior mother civilisation that existed in ancient times and was the progenetor of all known historical and modern civilisations.

    Err, right.

    *Moves on quickly from man with beard muttering into his ale*
    @Charles

    But earlier you said he believes the civilisation was "Alien" - I have a shelf-full of his books and nowhere does he say the mother civilisation was non-human!!!
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