Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
JW ..Can you provide verifiable evidence that the Israeli Government and the IDF deliberately target children. Non smart munitions are exactly that.. non smart ..they kill everyone.. regardless of age and gender. So do the smart ones.
Your argument is indefensible and pathetic, give up whilst you only look foolish.
JW..We all know what shells can do..The point is that SO claimed that the targets were clearly identified as children..I asked him to provide some evidence to support that statement
Only two scenarios are viable.
Firstly the commander fired blind in which case the attack was unjustified or secondly the targets were acquired and area shelling was deployed that killed the children.
Neither situation is especially edifying.
A third and most likely possibility is that an Israeli Naval Officer (on a moving boat and viewing at a distance of kilometers through binoculars) saw figures moving near the fishing boats and mis-identified them as Hamas activists preparing a rocket attack.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
A generous interpretation given the prowess of the IDF.
It reminds me of the excuses the Met Police have used in recent years to shoot innocent civilians. The only succour one might draw is that the Met don't employ gun boats along the Thames.
JW..We all know what shells can do..The point is that SO claimed that the targets were clearly identified as children..I asked him to provide some evidence to support that statement
Only two scenarios are viable.
Firstly the commander fired blind in which case the attack was unjustified or secondly the targets were acquired and area shelling was deployed that killed the children.
Neither situation is especially edifying.
A third and most likely possibility is that an Israeli Naval Officer (on a moving boat and viewing at a distance of kilometers through binoculars) saw figures moving near the fishing boats and mis-identified them as Hamas activists preparing a rocket attack.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
Nice one, if it is moving blow it up , good justification.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
I merely pointed out a possible third option to Jacks two.
Mistakes do occur in war, and I would prefer there to be peace and no casualties either adult or child, civilian or military.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
I merely pointed out a possible third option to Jacks two.
Mistakes do occur in war, and I would prefer there to be peace and no casualties either adult or child, civilian or military.
Maybe someone tripped and fell against the fire button, just as likely as your option.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
I merely pointed out a possible third option to Jacks two.
You did more than that - you declared it the most likely explanation.
JW..We all know what shells can do..The point is that SO claimed that the targets were clearly identified as children..I asked him to provide some evidence to support that statement
Only two scenarios are viable.
Firstly the commander fired blind in which case the attack was unjustified or secondly the targets were acquired and area shelling was deployed that killed the children.
Neither situation is especially edifying.
A third and most likely possibility is that an Israeli Naval Officer (on a moving boat and viewing at a distance of kilometers through binoculars) saw figures moving near the fishing boats and mis-identified them as Hamas activists preparing a rocket attack.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
For a doctor you have a remarkably high tolerance for lethal mistakes.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
I merely pointed out a possible third option to Jacks two.
Mistakes do occur in war, and I would prefer there to be peace and no casualties either adult or child, civilian or military.
Doc, You are wasting your time. Trying to be reasonable and logical on this subject is futile. A Much better use of your time would be to go look at your diplomacy account. At least one message is waiting for you there.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
I merely pointed out a possible third option to Jacks two.
You did more than that - you declared it the most likely explanation.
FoxinUK never makes an anti Israeli comment. If he actually saw Israeli soldiers murdering a few kids, he will find something against the kids.
Israel is a terrorist state. WE should not deal with them and introduce sanctions.
JW ..Can you provide verifiable evidence that the Israeli Government and the IDF deliberately target children. Non smart munitions are exactly that.. non smart ..they kill everyone.. regardless of age and gender. So do the smart ones.
It's akin to British forces carpet bombing parts of West Belfast after a bomb in London. Almost everyone agrees that war crimes are being committed in a Gaza.
Now that we know Paul Staines is so closely connected to the Tories that he attends their fundraising dinners it does put a new light on the Guido site. It was always very clever for the Tories to outsource their smearing.
JW My second statement does nothing of the kind..Please provide proof that it is the policy of the Israeli Govt and the IDF to target children.
You want me to find a smoking gun .... A document down the trousers of Netanyahu stating "Kill the Gazan babies."
We simply don't need one. The evidence is absolutely unequivocally staring you and all but the politically wilfully blind in the blooded faces of the dead.
If a military commander and their political masters use artillery shells in civilian areas they know without doubt that children will be killed and therefore the use of such shells is targeting those children.
No it's not. It's because Israel is pretty much the only country in the world where people think it's respectable to deny it's right to exist - at least you're being relatively honest that it's the Jewishness of the state that's a problem for you. Despicable, but honest.
I don't think you've managed to follow this discussion.
Okay then - let's go back to the other points. "Desist from violent attacks" and "respect existing agreements". Do you think these are reasonable demands for Israel to make, or not?
I don't know enough about the detail on the ground to know that, which is why I've only been commenting on the metaphysics problems which people rather mysteriously insist on bringing into the discussion. For example, is it plausible that if Hamas honour the pre-existing agreements, Israel will also honour their side of them? There's an argument that continuing to expand settlements in Palestinian areas shows that they actually have no intention of honouring them, in which case they'd be better off starting from scratch. But maybe that was a response to something the Palestinians were doing and could stop doing, and the process could still be put back on the rails?
To form good opinions on this stuff you really need to have been following the various agreements and actions on the ground with at least the kind of day-to-day obsessiveness we deploy to work out how strong Liberal Democrat incumbency will be and how Labour will perform compared to UNS. It's not enough just to tune in when the Western media does. If anybody here has that kind of expertise on the ins and outs of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, they're not sharing it with us.
Israel forcibly removed several settlements and 10 000 settlers from Gaza in 2005, when they handed everything in Gaza over to Palestinian control.
How did the Palestinians reciprocate? By rocket attacks...
The settlements themselves were illegal as is the entire occupation.
Southam has lost it. It must be as a result of the new way of finding out(which we soon will) how good students really are rather than relying on coursework. Tsk...
MG I could not agree more..thats why the Hamas have fired 3000 rockets into Israel ..not to make expensive holes in the desert but to kill the citizens..it works both ways..
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
With all due respect, but bollocks - avoiding this is why Israel always warns the inhabitants of a targeted building in advance, to give them time to leave. Hamas however usually tries to prevent them -
""A new United Nations document says that in most cases where Palestinians have been killed or injured during Israel’s ongoing Gaza campaign, the Israeli army alerted civilians ahead of time who were occupying buildings, that they planned to bomb in Gaza, to leave the premises.
“At least 35 residential buildings were reportedly targeted and destroyed, resulting in the majority of the civilian casualties recorded so far, including an attack on 8 July in Khan Younis that killed seven civilians, including three children, and injured another 25,” according to the Occupied Palestinian Territory: Hostilities in Gaza and Israel Situation Report. “In most cases, prior to the attacks, residents have been warned to leave, either via phone calls by the Israel military or by the firing of warning missiles.”
The document was released by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) at 15:00 on July, 9, 2014.
Hamas, however, has officially urged residents to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate prior to Air Force air strikes, and, instead, called on them to serve as human shields."
Now that we know Paul Staines is so closely connected to the Tories that he attends their fundraising dinners it does put a new light on the Guido site. It was always very clever for the Tories to outsource their smearing. But maybe not so clever to have the smearer attend official events.
Now that we know Paul Staines is so closely connected to the Tories that he attends their fundraising dinners it does put a new light on the Guido site. It was always very clever for the Tories to outsource their smearing.
That is a pretty disgusting remark, Southam.
You really ought to apologise for it.
He also forgets the vile smear job Paul Staines did on William Hague a few years ago.
Now that we know Paul Staines is so closely connected to the Tories that he attends their fundraising dinners it does put a new light on the Guido site. It was always very clever for the Tories to outsource their smearing.
That is a pretty disgusting remark, Southam.
You really ought to apologise for it.
Hide behind your "holier than thou" facade ! You are fooling no one.
Tories like sub-contrcating and out sourcing. That is exactly they are doing with Guido.
JW..We all know what shells can do..The point is that SO claimed that the targets were clearly identified as children..I asked him to provide some evidence to support that statement
Only two scenarios are viable.
Firstly the commander fired blind in which case the attack was unjustified or secondly the targets were acquired and area shelling was deployed that killed the children.
Neither situation is especially edifying.
A third and most likely possibility is that an Israeli Naval Officer (on a moving boat and viewing at a distance of kilometers through binoculars) saw figures moving near the fishing boats and mis-identified them as Hamas activists preparing a rocket attack.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
For a doctor you have a remarkably high tolerance for lethal mistakes.
I have a very low tolerance of medical mistakes, but also find that jumping to preformed conclusions is not the best way of investigating incidents.
Investigations need to be open minded, and factually based with all protagonists being listened to. There will sometimes be very different accounts of events, and these take some time to resolve into an assessment that can lead to learning points to prevent similar incidents. If you want light then you often need to calm down the heat.
Incidents at war are inevitably different with one or both parties not keen on an objective investigation and interfering with evidence.
Firing artillery into built up areas is inevitably going to cause civilian casualties, and with half of Palestinians under 18, a high proportion will be children. It is equally irresponsible to use such areas to launch unguided missiles into Israel.
Like I said: If you preach a doctrine of holy war, be prepared for an unholy response.
It's quite noticeable that, apart from those with an "interest" in supporting Israel, almost no-one has a good word to say for them. Many of us who previously had some sympathy with Israel are losing it. It's only the Americans who are, for domestic political reasons, retain some sympathy and give some support.
With all due respect, but bollocks - avoiding this is why Israel always warns the inhabitants of a targeted building in advance, to give them time to leave.
I'm sorry - but that's bollocks. After the Israeli soldier was captured yesterday Israel pounded the immediate area to stop the captors leaving the scene. There was no warning and innocent children died.
It's quite noticeable that, apart from those with an "interest" in supporting Israel, almost no-one has a good word to say for them. Many of us who previously had some sympathy with Israel are losing it. It's only the Americans who are, for domestic political reasons, retain some sympathy and give some support.
I like your use of the word "interest". SeanT would have been more direct.
With all due respect, but bollocks - avoiding this is why Israel always warns the inhabitants of a targeted building in advance, to give them time to leave.
I'm sorry - but that's bollocks. After the Israeli soldier was captured yesterday Israel pounded the immediate area to stop the captors leaving the scene. There was no warning and innocent children died.
So are you denying that warnings have ever been given, just because you've managed to find an account of a firefight where they weren't? It's the UN that saying they are being given after all, not just me.
Based on the conversations I've had with the people I know in Jerusalem, it appears to be "religious nutters" [phrase used by my primary contact, who is an orthodox Jew] doing it in a deliberatively provocative way. The government is unable/unwilling to kick them out of the new settlements ( because the "settler party" has a small number of seats in the Knesset but are critical votes.
Assuming for the sake of argument that this is right, if for whatever reason the main parties in the government can't stop settlers creating new settlements, how on earth are they going to dismantle the ones they've already built so they can return those areas to Palestinian control? Won't they be subject to the same constraints and worse?
Like I say I'm out of my depth here and for all I know maybe it's possible to set up a virtuous circle where you build trust and gradually isolate the nut-jobs, but at the very least it doesn't seem _obvious_ that everybody should be just picking up the previous agreement where they left off.
The sense that I get is that as part of an overall settlement (no pun intended) the government would and could force a solution, but that in isolation the cost is too high.
But I'm not an expert, so I tend o deter well clear of politics in the middle east - my conversations with my contact are more about New Jersey an hillary16 than the Middle East...
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
With all due respect, but bollocks - avoiding this is why Israel always warns the inhabitants of a targeted building in advance, to give them time to leave. Hamas however usually tries to prevent them -
""A new United Nations document says that in most cases where Palestinians have been killed or injured during Israel’s ongoing Gaza campaign, the Israeli army alerted civilians ahead of time who were occupying buildings, that they planned to bomb in Gaza, to leave the premises.
“At least 35 residential buildings were reportedly targeted and destroyed, resulting in the majority of the civilian casualties recorded so far, including an attack on 8 July in Khan Younis that killed seven civilians, including three children, and injured another 25,” according to the Occupied Palestinian Territory: Hostilities in Gaza and Israel Situation Report. “In most cases, prior to the attacks, residents have been warned to leave, either via phone calls by the Israel military or by the firing of warning missiles.”
The document was released by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) at 15:00 on July, 9, 2014.
Hamas, however, has officially urged residents to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate prior to Air Force air strikes, and, instead, called on them to serve as human shields."
As I once saw it put, Israel uses rockets to protect it's civilians (Iron Dome), but Hamas uses civilians to protect it's rockets.
We live in a pretty f*ked up world when sympathy is overwhelmingly with the latter group.
We might only wonder how Britains in the Blitz would have responded had Hitler warned them to leave their homes as the Luftwaffe was about to bomb them out ....
It would be interesting to see the worksheet showing how David calculates his polling averages, i.e. which pollsters he includes and the weighting he applies to each one.
Israel no longer cares what the rest of the world think. Even the United States influence is limited.
Jack is correct here, but we must surely ask ourselves why. The answer is that 'the international community' does not serve Israel. The country regards its influence as malign.
Why else would Israel, which is a democracy and still will be when this war is over, act like this. Israel is sick of pleasing the world, because it clearly regards pleasing the world as being at the expense of its citizens and their security.
Whatever else this conflict is, it is a huge vote of no confidence in 'the international community'. I have a feeling it is the first of many.
With all due respect, but bollocks - avoiding this is why Israel always warns the inhabitants of a targeted building in advance, to give them time to leave.
I'm sorry - but that's bollocks. After the Israeli soldier was captured yesterday Israel pounded the immediate area to stop the captors leaving the scene. There was no warning and innocent children died.
So are you denying that warnings have ever been given, just because you've managed to find an account of a firefight where they weren't? It's the UN that saying they are being given after all, not just me.
I think what I wrote (that your claim that Israel *always* forewarns inhabitants of an impending bombardment to avoid killing innocent children was bollocks) was fairly clear. Dont you?
Now that we know Paul Staines is so closely connected to the Tories that he attends their fundraising dinners it does put a new light on the Guido site. It was always very clever for the Tories to outsource their smearing.
That is a pretty disgusting remark, Southam.
You really ought to apologise for it.
He also forgets the vile smear job Paul Staines did on William Hague a few years ago.
What smear job ? Did he noy say he shared a hotel room with an assistant during the election campaign and it turned out to be true. Or, did some one else print that "smear" ?
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
With all due respect, but bollocks - avoiding this is why Israel always warns the inhabitants of a targeted building in advance, to give them time to leave. Hamas however usually tries to prevent them -
""A new United Nations document says that in most cases where Palestinians have been killed or injured during Israel’s ongoing Gaza campaign, the Israeli army alerted civilians ahead of time who were occupying buildings, that they planned to bomb in Gaza, to leave the premises.
“At least 35 residential buildings were reportedly targeted and destroyed, resulting in the majority of the civilian casualties recorded so far, including an attack on 8 July in Khan Younis that killed seven civilians, including three children, and injured another 25,” according to the Occupied Palestinian Territory: Hostilities in Gaza and Israel Situation Report. “In most cases, prior to the attacks, residents have been warned to leave, either via phone calls by the Israel military or by the firing of warning missiles.”
The document was released by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) at 15:00 on July, 9, 2014.
Hamas, however, has officially urged residents to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate prior to Air Force air strikes, and, instead, called on them to serve as human shields."
As I once saw it put, Israel uses rockets to protect it's civilians (Iron Dome), but Hamas uses civilians to protect it's rockets.
We live in a pretty f*ked up world when sympathy is overwhelmingly with the latter group.
We might only wonder how Britains in the Blitz would have responded had Hitler warned them to leave their homes as the Luftwaffe was about to bomb them out ....
I rather think we know ....
Congratulations - another one comparing Israel to the Nazis. Just to refresh your memory - it's Hamas who's constitution calls for genocide, not Israel. But it's only Jews they want to kill, so no big deal.
It would be interesting to see the worksheet showing how David calculates his polling averages, i.e. which pollsters he includes and the weighting he applies to each one.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
With all due respect, but bollocks - avoiding this is why Israel always warns the inhabitants of a targeted building in advance, to give them time to leave. Hamas however usually tries to prevent them -
""A new United Nations document says that in most cases where Palestinians have been killed or injured during Israel’s ongoing Gaza campaign, the Israeli army alerted civilians ahead of time who were occupying buildings, that they planned to bomb in Gaza, to leave the premises.
“At least 35 residential buildings were reportedly targeted and destroyed, resulting in the majority of the civilian casualties recorded so far, including an attack on 8 July in Khan Younis that killed seven civilians, including three children, and injured another 25,” according to the Occupied Palestinian Territory: Hostilities in Gaza and Israel Situation Report. “In most cases, prior to the attacks, residents have been warned to leave, either via phone calls by the Israel military or by the firing of warning missiles.”
The document was released by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) at 15:00 on July, 9, 2014.
Hamas, however, has officially urged residents to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate prior to Air Force air strikes, and, instead, called on them to serve as human shields."
As I once saw it put, Israel uses rockets to protect it's civilians (Iron Dome), but Hamas uses civilians to protect it's rockets.
We live in a pretty f*ked up world when sympathy is overwhelmingly with the latter group.
We might only wonder how Britains in the Blitz would have responded had Hitler warned them to leave their homes as the Luftwaffe was about to bomb them out ....
I rather think we know ....
Congratulations - another one comparing Israel to the Nazis. Just to refresh your memory - it's Hamas who's constitution calls for genocide, not Israel. But it's only Jews they want to kill, so no big deal.
How true. Some supporters of the Palestinians won't be satisfied until there will be an equal number, or more of Israeli dead. They will then say thats fair. The only good Jew is a dead Jew, seems to be their candid opinion.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
With all due respect, but bollocks - avoiding this is why Israel always warns the inhabitants of a targeted building in advance, to give them time to leave. Hamas however usually tries to prevent them -
""A new United Nations document says that in most cases where Palestinians have been killed or injured during Israel’s ongoing Gaza campaign, the Israeli army alerted civilians ahead of time who were occupying buildings, that they planned to bomb in Gaza, to leave the premises.
“At least 35 residential buildings were reportedly targeted and destroyed, resulting in the majority of the civilian casualties recorded so far, including an attack on 8 July in Khan Younis that killed seven civilians, including three children, and injured another 25,” according to the Occupied Palestinian Territory: Hostilities in Gaza and Israel Situation Report. “In most cases, prior to the attacks, residents have been warned to leave, either via phone calls by the Israel military or by the firing of warning missiles.”
The document was released by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) at 15:00 on July, 9, 2014.
Hamas, however, has officially urged residents to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate prior to Air Force air strikes, and, instead, called on them to serve as human shields."
We live in a pretty f*ked up world when sympathy is overwhelmingly with the latter group.
We might only wonder how Britains in the Blitz would have responded had Hitler warned them to leave their homes as the Luftwaffe was about to bomb them out ....
I rather think we know ....
Congratulations - another one comparing Israel to the Nazis. Just to refresh your memory - it's Hamas who's constitution calls for genocide, not Israel. But it's only Jews they want to kill, so no big deal.
I did no such thing.
I provided an alternative example that British people may relate to. But let me be clear if the cap fits then Israel doesn't get a pass on behaviour the Nazis thought acceptable.
Both sides are at fault and have lost all sense of decency, proportionality and humanity.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
With all due respect, but bollocks - avoiding this is why Israel always warns the inhabitants of a targeted building in advance, to give them time to leave. Hamas however usually tries to prevent them -
""A new United Nations document says that in most cases where Palestinians have been killed or injured during Israel’s ongoing Gaza campaign, the Israeli army alerted civilians ahead of time who were occupying buildings, that they planned to bomb in Gaza, to leave the premises.
“At least 35 residential buildings were reportedly targeted and destroyed, resulting in the majority of the civilian casualties recorded so far, including an attack on 8 July in Khan Younis that killed seven civilians, including three children, and injured another 25,” according to the Occupied Palestinian Territory: Hostilities in Gaza and Israel Situation Report. “In most cases, prior to the attacks, residents have been warned to leave, either via phone calls by the Israel military or by the firing of warning missiles.”
The document was released by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) at 15:00 on July, 9, 2014.
Hamas, however, has officially urged residents to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate prior to Air Force air strikes, and, instead, called on them to serve as human shields."
As I once saw it put, Israel uses rockets to protect it's civilians (Iron Dome), but Hamas uses civilians to protect it's rockets.
We live in a pretty f*ked up world when sympathy is overwhelmingly with the latter group.
We might only wonder how Britains in the Blitz would have responded had Hitler warned them to leave their homes as the Luftwaffe was about to bomb them out ....
I rather think we know ....
Congratulations - another one comparing Israel to the Nazis. Just to refresh your memory - it's Hamas who's constitution calls for genocide, not Israel. But it's only Jews they want to kill, so no big deal.
The classical response:
" Six million of us were gassed ! Therefore, anything we do is OK " After all, they have only butchered 500 Gazan kids so far !
£15 million homes, dating the daughter of a financier, £500 massages, call for Parker the driver.......fight the power comrades..fight the system....
Next time he comes on the tv spouting his revolutionary nonsense, maybe somebody should point out that he might just be a tad of a hypocrite.
Come the revolution, I'm sure the pitchfork mob are going to say well we don't need to worry about bringing Brand and Khan pad into "public ownership", as he's a top bloke and she alright too.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
Hamas, however, has officially urged residents to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate prior to Air Force air strikes, and, instead, called on them to serve as human shields."
As I once saw it put, Israel uses rockets to protect it's civilians (Iron Dome), but Hamas uses civilians to protect it's rockets.
We live in a pretty f*ked up world when sympathy is overwhelmingly with the latter group.
We might only wonder how Britains in the Blitz would have responded had Hitler warned them to leave their homes as the Luftwaffe was about to bomb them out ....
I rather think we know ....
Congratulations - another one comparing Israel to the Nazis. Just to refresh your memory - it's Hamas who's constitution calls for genocide, not Israel. But it's only Jews they want to kill, so no big deal.
As I have shown you, Israeli pundits and senior analysts are now OPENLY calling for the genocide of Gazans, or their total expulsion, and ethnic cleansing, from their own homes.
When a Jew wonders "When Genocide is Permissible?" in regard to Arabs, they can hardly take affront when others start comparing Israelis to Nazis.
No they are not. Your poisoned and warped attacks on Israel, but even more on Jews as Jews is as low and fascist as can be. An anti - semite for all to see is @SeanT.
£15 million homes, dating the daughter of a financier, £500 massages, call for Parker the driver.......fight the power comrades..fight the system....
Next time he comes on the tv spouting his revolutionary nonsense, maybe somebody should point out that he might just be a tad of a hypocrite.
Come the revolution, I'm sure the pitchfork mob are going to say well we don't need to worry about bringing Brand and Khan pad into "public ownership", as he's a top bloke and she alright too.
I just love it how certain newspapers are obsessed with house prices and try to squeeze it into every story, no matter how irrelevant to the actual story it is.
For a doctor you have a remarkably high tolerance for lethal mistakes.
When I suggested that academic performance should be the primary criterion for judging schools, the good doctor suggested there were other, more important, criteria.
Silly me.
Does anyone know which hospital he works in, so that I can give it as wide a berth as possible in case they ignore medical outcomes there and pay primary attention to some bizarre PC metric?
I have a very low tolerance of medical mistakes, but also find that jumping to preformed conclusions is not the best way of investigating incidents.
Preformed conclusions like a particular tragedy was most likely a mistake? Physician, heal thyself.
That was not my only possibility, but do find that a presumption of innocent until proven guilty is a useful way of approaching an investigation. I know that is awfully old fashioned concept, but in some ways I am.
Incidently, I think that the Malaysian Airways disaster was probably also a mistake of target acquisition, and that the Donetsk separatists thought that they had a Ukrainian Airforce plane in their sights.
Both this and the Israeli naval shelling of the children could have been deliberate attempts to kill civilians, but it is hard to see what would be gained by such action. We know for certain that Hamas targets civilians, because they tell us so themselves.
We are a dangerous species. It's sometimes a wonder to me how most of us manage to keep some sort of equilibrium. Any passing aliens with an eye to expansion or exploitation had better check their, certainly superior, technology before dealing with us. Could this continuing murderous behaviour be dealt with by an international version of Lysistrata ?
I have a very low tolerance of medical mistakes, but also find that jumping to preformed conclusions is not the best way of investigating incidents.
Preformed conclusions like a particular tragedy was most likely a mistake? Physician, heal thyself.
That was not my only possibility
I didnt say it was - just that concluding, in the absence of any evidence, that it was the most likely possibility was every bit the preformed conclusion you were castigating others for.
I have a very low tolerance of medical mistakes, but also find that jumping to preformed conclusions is not the best way of investigating incidents.
Preformed conclusions like a particular tragedy was most likely a mistake? Physician, heal thyself.
That was not my only possibility
I didnt say it was - just that concluding, in the absence of any evidence, that it was the most likely possibility was every bit the preformed conclusion you were castigating others for.
A hypothesis of mistake without intent is more likely to permit an accurate investigation, than a presumption of guilt.
Having some experience on a moving boat, identifying buoys through binoculars in the shimmering heat of the Mediterranean does give me some insight as to how close one has to be to be certain of identification. The task of a Naval Officer directing fire must be harder still.
Mistakes are made in war. This was probably one of them.
You have great insight into the day's events to be able to conclude that it was probably a mistake.
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
Hamas, however, has officially urged residents to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate prior to Air Force air strikes, and, instead, called on them to serve as human shields."
As I once saw it put, Israel uses rockets to protect it's civilians (Iron Dome), but Hamas uses civilians to protect it's rockets.
We live in a pretty f*ked up world when sympathy is overwhelmingly with the latter group.
We might only wonder how Britains in the Blitz would have responded had Hitler warned them to leave their homes as the Luftwaffe was about to bomb them out ....
I rather think we know ....
Congratulations - another one comparing Israel to the Nazis. Just to refresh your memory - it's Hamas who's constitution calls for genocide, not Israel. But it's only Jews they want to kill, so no big deal.
As I have shown you, Israeli pundits and senior analysts are now OPENLY calling for the genocide of Gazans, or their total expulsion, and ethnic cleansing, from their own homes.
When a Jew wonders "When Genocide is Permissible?" in regard to Arabs, they can hardly take affront when others start comparing Israelis to Nazis.
No they are not. Your poisoned and warped attacks on Israel, but even more on Jews as Jews is as low and fascist as can be. An anti - semite for all to see is @SeanT.
I have a very low tolerance of medical mistakes, but also find that jumping to preformed conclusions is not the best way of investigating incidents.
Preformed conclusions like a particular tragedy was most likely a mistake? Physician, heal thyself.
That was not my only possibility
I didnt say it was - just that concluding, in the absence of any evidence, that it was the most likely possibility was every bit the preformed conclusion you were castigating others for.
A hypothesis of mistake without intent is more likely to permit an accurate investigation, than a presumption of guilt.
It wasnt a hypothesis of mistake - you said it was what probably happened.
Hamas, however, has officially urged residents to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate prior to Air Force air strikes, and, instead, called on them to serve as human shields."
We live in a pretty f*ked up world when sympathy is overwhelmingly with the latter group.
We might only wonder how Britains in the Blitz would have responded had Hitler warned them to leave their homes as the Luftwaffe was about to bomb them out ....
I rather think we know ....
Congratulations - another one comparing Israel to the Nazis. Just to refresh your memory - it's Hamas who's constitution calls for genocide, not Israel. But it's only Jews they want to kill, so no big deal.
I did no such thing.
I provided an alternative example that British people may relate to. But let me be clear if the cap fits then Israel doesn't get a pass on behaviour the Nazis thought acceptable.
Both sides are at fault and have lost all sense of decency, proportionality and humanity.
Can we PLEASE have a "Like" button. In the absence thereof, Mr W I wholeheartedly agree with you. FWIW!
It would be interesting to see the worksheet showing how David calculates his polling averages, i.e. which pollsters he includes and the weighting he applies to each one.
I've got a copy of the spreadsheet, I'll make it publicly available via dropbox, once David says it is ok to do so.
I have a very low tolerance of medical mistakes, but also find that jumping to preformed conclusions is not the best way of investigating incidents.
Preformed conclusions like a particular tragedy was most likely a mistake? Physician, heal thyself.
That was not my only possibility
I didnt say it was - just that concluding, in the absence of any evidence, that it was the most likely possibility was every bit the preformed conclusion you were castigating others for.
A hypothesis of mistake without intent is more likely to permit an accurate investigation, than a presumption of guilt.
It wasnt a hypothesis of mistake - you said it was what probably happened.
It is more probable than the alternatives, though those should be considered.
I have a very low tolerance of medical mistakes, but also find that jumping to preformed conclusions is not the best way of investigating incidents.
Preformed conclusions like a particular tragedy was most likely a mistake? Physician, heal thyself.
That was not my only possibility
I didnt say it was - just that concluding, in the absence of any evidence, that it was the most likely possibility was every bit the preformed conclusion you were castigating others for.
A hypothesis of mistake without intent is more likely to permit an accurate investigation, than a presumption of guilt.
It wasnt a hypothesis of mistake - you said it was what probably happened.
It is more probable than the alternatives, though those should be considered.
You said it was probably what happened and you also criticised others for coming to preformed conclusions.
Time for a fresh thread methinks - only 252 posts to this one all day.
I'll be publishing the next thread as soon as the observer publish the Opinium poll.
#NotCrossOverSaturday
Good idea; bring it on. The Gaza debate is driving some on here a bit crazy.
I agree, but when I am accused by some such as SeanT of advocating child murder, I do feel the need to respond.
I deplore, and have consistently done so, all the deaths, civilian and military on both sides of the conflict. I cheered the ceasefire, and regretted its collapse.
With all due respect, but bollocks - avoiding this is why Israel always warns the inhabitants of a targeted building in advance, to give them time to leave.
I'm sorry - but that's bollocks. After the Israeli soldier was captured yesterday Israel pounded the immediate area to stop the captors leaving the scene. There was no warning and innocent children died.
Better to have let their solider be carted off to God knows where and have God knows what done to him?
With all due respect, but bollocks - avoiding this is why Israel always warns the inhabitants of a targeted building in advance, to give them time to leave.
I'm sorry - but that's bollocks. After the Israeli soldier was captured yesterday Israel pounded the immediate area to stop the captors leaving the scene. There was no warning and innocent children died.
Better to have let their solider be carted off to God knows where and have God knows what done to him?
Who's to say, Charles? I simply pointed out that the claim that Israel always forewarns civilians that it's about to bombard them in order to avoid killing innocent children was bollocks.
JW..We all know what shells can do..The point is that SO claimed that the targets were clearly identified as children..I asked him to provide some evidence to support that statement
Only two scenarios are viable.
Firstly the commander fired blind in which case the attack was unjustified or secondly the targets were acquired and area shelling was deployed that killed the children.
Neither situation is especially edifying.
I can think of at least another 3 options
Mistake in target identification
Correct target identification and either a mistake was made regarding children in target area or that fact was deliberately ignored.
Comments
On the other hand we know that Israel is happy to deliberately bomb civilian areas indiscriminately knowing that innocent children will die as a result. And not mistakenly.
It reminds me of the excuses the Met Police have used in recent years to shoot innocent civilians. The only succour one might draw is that the Met don't employ gun boats along the Thames.
Mistakes do occur in war, and I would prefer there to be peace and no casualties either adult or child, civilian or military.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11005180/Europes-sick-man-France-dealt-another-blow-as-manufacturing-contracts.html
Didn't Ed Miliband want us to follow the French facon?
what an absolute (self censored)
Israel is a terrorist state. WE should not deal with them and introduce sanctions.
You really ought to apologise for it.
We simply don't need one. The evidence is absolutely unequivocally staring you and all but the politically wilfully blind in the blooded faces of the dead.
If a military commander and their political masters use artillery shells in civilian areas they know without doubt that children will be killed and therefore the use of such shells is targeting those children.
The military logic is undeniable.
It must be as a result of the new way of finding out(which we soon will) how good students really are rather than relying on coursework. Tsk...
""A new United Nations document says that in most cases where Palestinians have been killed or injured during Israel’s ongoing Gaza campaign, the Israeli army alerted civilians ahead of time who were occupying buildings, that they planned to bomb in Gaza, to leave the premises.
“At least 35 residential buildings were reportedly targeted and destroyed, resulting in the majority of the civilian casualties recorded so far, including an attack on 8 July in Khan Younis that killed seven civilians, including three children, and injured another 25,” according to the Occupied Palestinian Territory: Hostilities in Gaza and Israel Situation Report. “In most cases, prior to the attacks, residents have been warned to leave, either via phone calls by the Israel military or by the firing of warning missiles.”
The document was released by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) at 15:00 on July, 9, 2014.
Hamas, however, has officially urged residents to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate prior to Air Force air strikes, and, instead, called on them to serve as human shields."
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/10/united-nations-most-gaza-casualties-were-warned-by-idf-to-leave-targeted-buildings-in-advance/
As I once saw it put, Israel uses rockets to protect it's civilians (Iron Dome), but Hamas uses civilians to protect it's rockets.
We live in a pretty f*ked up world when sympathy is overwhelmingly with the latter group.
Tories like sub-contrcating and out sourcing. That is exactly they are doing with Guido.
Investigations need to be open minded, and factually based with all protagonists being listened to. There will sometimes be very different accounts of events, and these take some time to resolve into an assessment that can lead to learning points to prevent similar incidents. If you want light then you often need to calm down the heat.
Incidents at war are inevitably different with one or both parties not keen on an objective investigation and interfering with evidence.
Firing artillery into built up areas is inevitably going to cause civilian casualties, and with half of Palestinians under 18, a high proportion will be children. It is equally irresponsible to use such areas to launch unguided missiles into Israel.
Like I said: If you preach a doctrine of holy war, be prepared for an unholy response.
Many of us who previously had some sympathy with Israel are losing it. It's only the Americans who are, for domestic political reasons, retain some sympathy and give some support.
Hamas wasm after all, democratically elected.
But I'm not an expert, so I tend o deter well clear of politics in the middle east - my conversations with my contact are more about New Jersey an hillary16 than the Middle East...
I rather think we know ....
It would be interesting to see the worksheet showing how David calculates his polling averages, i.e. which pollsters he includes and the weighting he applies to each one.
Jack is correct here, but we must surely ask ourselves why. The answer is that 'the international community' does not serve Israel. The country regards its influence as malign.
Why else would Israel, which is a democracy and still will be when this war is over, act like this. Israel is sick of pleasing the world, because it clearly regards pleasing the world as being at the expense of its citizens and their security.
Whatever else this conflict is, it is a huge vote of no confidence in 'the international community'. I have a feeling it is the first of many.
I provided an alternative example that British people may relate to. But let me be clear if the cap fits then Israel doesn't get a pass on behaviour the Nazis thought acceptable.
Both sides are at fault and have lost all sense of decency, proportionality and humanity.
you fit right in with the Lib Dems I see.
" Six million of us were gassed ! Therefore, anything we do is OK " After all, they have only butchered 500 Gazan kids so far !
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11006984/Jemima-Khan-and-Russell-Brand-trigger-police-investigation-after-masseuse-claims-assault.html
£15 million homes, dating the daughter of a financier, £500 massages, call for Parker the driver.......fight the power comrades..fight the system....
Next time he comes on the tv spouting his revolutionary nonsense, maybe somebody should point out that he might just be a tad of a hypocrite.
Come the revolution, I'm sure the pitchfork mob are going to say well we don't need to worry about bringing Brand and Khan pad into "public ownership", as he's a top bloke and she alright too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2714037/Something-wrong-Alex-Moment-Scotland-s-First-Minister-mocked-fan-waving-England-flag-Commonwealth-Games-just-month-independence-vote.html
POASWAS.
Silly me.
Does anyone know which hospital he works in, so that I can give it as wide a berth as possible in case they ignore medical outcomes there and pay primary attention to some bizarre PC metric?
Incidently, I think that the Malaysian Airways disaster was probably also a mistake of target acquisition, and that the Donetsk separatists thought that they had a Ukrainian Airforce plane in their sights.
Both this and the Israeli naval shelling of the children could have been deliberate attempts to kill civilians, but it is hard to see what would be gained by such action. We know for certain that Hamas targets civilians, because they tell us so themselves.
Having some experience on a moving boat, identifying buoys through binoculars in the shimmering heat of the Mediterranean does give me some insight as to how close one has to be to be certain of identification. The task of a Naval Officer directing fire must be harder still.
I rather think we know ....
Congratulations - another one comparing Israel to the Nazis. Just to refresh your memory - it's Hamas who's constitution calls for genocide, not Israel. But it's only Jews they want to kill, so no big deal.
I did no such thing.
I provided an alternative example that British people may relate to. But let me be clear if the cap fits then Israel doesn't get a pass on behaviour the Nazis thought acceptable.
Both sides are at fault and have lost all sense of decency, proportionality and humanity.
Can we PLEASE have a "Like" button. In the absence thereof, Mr W I wholeheartedly agree with you.
FWIW!
I deplore, and have consistently done so, all the deaths, civilian and military on both sides of the conflict. I cheered the ceasefire, and regretted its collapse.
Mistake in target identification
Correct target identification and either a mistake was made regarding children in target area or that fact was deliberately ignored.
Incorrect target struck for technical reasons.