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  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    I used to think Andy Burnham was quite terminally useless, coming in a well-deserved fourth out of five in the leadership election, a smidgen ahead of Diane Abbott.

    Turns out I underestimated him - his excellent work on promoting the use of private providers in the NHS was ground-breaking, albeit rather small-scale. Still, a bit like Andrew Adonis in Education, he started a tentative move towards addressing producer interests; the coalition are now taking what he started and making it happen on a more serious scale.
  • A racing green metallic Cortina GXL eh?
    I always had a feeling that you came from the Landed Gentry.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    meanwhile, the NFL and its discipline issues continues to roll on........

    Ray Rice is serving a 2 game ban for knocking his then-fiancee now wife unconscious and dragging her out of an elevator at an Atlantic City casino, captured in a harrowing video. Yep, she married him after all and then blamed herself for being knocked out.

    Josh Gordon is facing a potential season long ban for a positive marijuana test. One sample was 1 nanogram above the limit, the other below. His appeal is on Friday.

    Meanwhile the NFL seems to be giving Jim Irsay every possible benefit of every possible doubt, and his trial date is next month. EVERYBODY is watching this one.

    The NFL is trying to improve its appeal to women, and it seems to be working very well. The Gordon vs Rice comparison doesn't really work well for that.

    Also I can report the first sighting of the Commonwealth games on US TV - a 41 shot table tennis rally on SportsCenter.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Richard_Nabavi
    The privatisation of all, and the logical rule of free market capitalism?
    I am afraid that like all fanatics, your rationality is suspect.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    @Richard_Nabavi
    The privatisation of all, and the logical rule of free market capitalism?
    I am afraid that like all fanatics, your rationality is suspect.

    Actually the fanatics are on only one side of this equation, the Left, as I can demonstrate with a simple question:

    Would you favour privatisation of specific parts of NHS provision, for example hip operations, if experience showed that the medical results were better and the costs lower? A simple Yes/No answer will suffice.

    I look forward to your answer, which will show who the ideological obsessive is.
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    edited July 2014
    What we need is a betting market that by 2020, irrespective of which party is in Government, hospital in-patients are charged a daily fee for their bed and/or for their meals, subject to the same exemptions whereby deserving categories do not have to pay around £8 - ouch! for prescriptions.
    The NHS in its present form is simply unaffordable, even Labour fully recognises this, but neither side will say as much until after the GE.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I said yesterday was outlier Monday....

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 25s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead drops to just one point: CON 34%, LAB 35%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    Neither this nor Monday's polls are outliers - thats a much bandied about word and I think people don't use it properly.
    I think we should scrap the term "outlier" and use the term "Monday" instead when referring to such polls, in much the same way as Austin Allegro models were referred to affectionately or otherwise as "Friday Afternoon" cars.
    More frequently known as the All Aggro..

    when my then-fiancee was moving fom London to Manchester in the mid 70s after I was transferred there, her employer lent her a company car to help move her stuff up there.

    She parked in my parents' driveway and shut the door, which promptly locked with the keys still in the ignition. Mostly in frustration I tried to unlock the door with my car keys (my beloved coke bottle shape racing green metallic Cortina GXL). It worked.

    I had to return the car to London. Square steering wheel and all it was absolutely the worst car I have ever driven, and considering the sheer awfulness of the British Leyland range at the time, that's saying something.
    Can we safely assume that this particular "then-fiancee" very soon afterwards became your ex-fiancee? In which case perhaps you have a great deal to thank British Leyland for.
    Nope - still married.

    A racing green metallic Cortina GXL eh?
    I always had a feeling that you came from the Landed Gentry.


    I see I can hide nothing from you - after years of living here I no longer insist on tugged forelocks or doffed caps, which is mighty big of me :-)

    My aforementioned spouse, a Glaswegian with a temper, before her Glaswegian accent became a soft burr with American overtones, in the early years of our marriage, when annoyed, would call me all sorts of names, most of which I couldn't understand as her accent increased in step with her anger. Several came out when I unlocked the All Aggro door with my key.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    My answer would be no, Though I would expect the managers and doctors to find out why, and remedy the situation.
    Your problem is that you are so fanatical that you can't see that while the "market" has good points, it also has no inbuilt social responsibility.
    I need not show you that it lacks responsibility, you can pick up almost any paper at random and read about it yourself.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    @peter_from_putney - It is really quite bizarre that the mantra of 'no private providers' and 'free at the point of use' is invariably trolled out by the Left, who apparently have never heard of GP practices or prescription charges. Quite how they manage to be so out of touch with how the NHS actually operates is a great mystery to. I guess they must have private health insurance so never see it.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Smarmeron said:

    My answer would be no,

    Thank you.

    QED.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Smarmeron said:

    My answer would be no, Though I would expect the managers and doctors to find out why, and remedy the situation.
    Your problem is that you are so fanatical that you can't see that while the "market" has good points, it also has no inbuilt social responsibility.
    I need not show you that it lacks responsibility, you can pick up almost any paper at random and read about it yourself.

    Patients don't want social responsibility - they want the best hip surgery.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Tim_B said:

    meanwhile, the NFL and its discipline issues continues to roll on........

    Ray Rice is serving a 2 game ban for knocking his then-fiancee now wife unconscious and dragging her out of an elevator at an Atlantic City casino, captured in a harrowing video. Yep, she married him after all and then blamed herself for being knocked out.

    Josh Gordon is facing a potential season long ban for a positive marijuana test. One sample was 1 nanogram above the limit, the other below. His appeal is on Friday.

    Meanwhile the NFL seems to be giving Jim Irsay every possible benefit of every possible doubt, and his trial date is next month. EVERYBODY is watching this one.

    The NFL is trying to improve its appeal to women, and it seems to be working very well. The Gordon vs Rice comparison doesn't really work well for that.

    Also I can report the first sighting of the Commonwealth games on US TV - a 41 shot table tennis rally on SportsCenter.

    It's a shameful comparison, marijuana is hardly a performance enhancing drug either.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2014
    Presumably Labour's newly-minted war on quality means that excellent private providers such as this one - very well regarded here in Sussex - will be closed down or wrecked for ideological reasons:

    http://www.horderhealthcare.co.uk/patients/get-referred

    The irony is that it was Labour which set up the highly successful Choose & Book scheme, one of the few good things they did.

    Unfortunately the ideological obsessives seem to have taken over the party, so they've air-brushed successes like that and Hinchingbrooke out of the history.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TGOHF
    And it is the states duty to make sure they get it, Have them study the procedures, and improve the public's service.
    It is hardly rocket science is it?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Smarmeron said:

    My answer would be no, Though I would expect the managers and doctors to find out why, and remedy the situation.
    Your problem is that you are so fanatical that you can't see that while the "market" has good points, it also has no inbuilt social responsibility.
    I need not show you that it lacks responsibility, you can pick up almost any paper at random and read about it yourself.

    It's already happening - my sister in law had her gall bladder removed a couple of weeks ago at a private clinic in England. She had to wait over 3 months. My daughter had the same operation here and was able to choose her date and waited less than a week.

    I favor privatizing the NHS too - given where I live that's hardly a surprise -but I doubt anybody would want the UK health care system thrown to laissez faire capitalism red in tooth and claw without any oversight whatever.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Pulpstar said:

    Tim_B said:

    meanwhile, the NFL and its discipline issues continues to roll on........

    Ray Rice is serving a 2 game ban for knocking his then-fiancee now wife unconscious and dragging her out of an elevator at an Atlantic City casino, captured in a harrowing video. Yep, she married him after all and then blamed herself for being knocked out.

    Josh Gordon is facing a potential season long ban for a positive marijuana test. One sample was 1 nanogram above the limit, the other below. His appeal is on Friday.

    Meanwhile the NFL seems to be giving Jim Irsay every possible benefit of every possible doubt, and his trial date is next month. EVERYBODY is watching this one.

    The NFL is trying to improve its appeal to women, and it seems to be working very well. The Gordon vs Rice comparison doesn't really work well for that.

    Also I can report the first sighting of the Commonwealth games on US TV - a 41 shot table tennis rally on SportsCenter.

    It's a shameful comparison, marijuana is hardly a performance enhancing drug either.
    Josh Gordon's defense is 'second hand smoke' :-)
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Richard_Nabavi
    Why should it be?
    I am not arguing against your private sector hospitals, in fact, if it was them who figured out a new and better way of doing something, they should be granted recognition for it.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Smarmeron said:

    @Richard_Nabavi
    Why should it be?
    I am not arguing against your private sector hospitals, in fact, if it was them who figured out a new and better way of doing something, they should be granted recognition for it.

    You are arguing against the NHS using their services, are you not? I believe that most of the patients at the Horder Centre are NHS patients. They have transformed the service NHS patients get here in Sussex.
  • Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I said yesterday was outlier Monday....

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 25s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead drops to just one point: CON 34%, LAB 35%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    Neither this nor Monday's polls are outliers - thats a much bandied about word and I think people don't use it properly.
    I think we should scrap the term "outlier" and use the term "Monday" instead when referring to such polls, in much the same way as Austin Allegro models were referred to affectionately or otherwise as "Friday Afternoon" cars.
    More frequently known as the All Aggro..

    when my then-fiancee was moving fom London to Manchester in the mid 70s after I was transferred there, her employer lent her a company car to help move her stuff up there.

    She parked in my parents' driveway and shut the door, which promptly locked with the keys still in the ignition. Mostly in frustration I tried to unlock the door with my car keys (my beloved coke bottle shape racing green metallic Cortina GXL). It worked.

    I had to return the car to London. Square steering wheel and all it was absolutely the worst car I have ever driven, and considering the sheer awfulness of the British Leyland range at the time, that's saying something.
    Can we safely assume that this particular "then-fiancee" very soon afterwards became your ex-fiancee? In which case perhaps you have a great deal to thank British Leyland for.
    Nope - still married.

    A racing green metallic Cortina GXL eh?
    I always had a feeling that you came from the Landed Gentry.


    I see I can hide nothing from you - after years of living here I no longer insist on tugged forelocks or doffed caps, which is mighty big of me :-)

    My aforementioned spouse, a Glaswegian with a temper, before her Glaswegian accent became a soft burr with American overtones, in the early years of our marriage, when annoyed, would call me all sorts of names, most of which I couldn't understand as her accent increased in step with her anger. Several came out when I unlocked the All Aggro door with my key.
    You never did say whether the keys to your beloved's All Aggro also operated the lock to your coke bottle shaped Dagenham beauty ..... I think we should be told.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Richard_Nabavi
    I am pleased, get one of the top doctors and managers from the NHS to spend a week or so at that hospital to find out how and why it is better?
    Better health for all?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I said yesterday was outlier Monday....

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 25s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead drops to just one point: CON 34%, LAB 35%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    Neither this nor Monday's polls are outliers - thats a much bandied about word and I think people don't use it properly.
    I think we should scrap the term "outlier" and use the term "Monday" instead when referring to such polls, in much the same way as Austin Allegro models were referred to affectionately or otherwise as "Friday Afternoon" cars.
    More frequently known as the All Aggro..

    when my then-fiancee was moving fom London to Manchester in the mid 70s after I was transferred there, her employer lent her a company car to help move her stuff up there.

    She parked in my parents' driveway and shut the door, which promptly locked with the keys still in the ignition. Mostly in frustration I tried to unlock the door with my car keys (my beloved coke bottle shape racing green metallic Cortina GXL). It worked.

    I had to return the car to London. Square steering wheel and all it was absolutely the worst car I have ever driven, and considering the sheer awfulness of the British Leyland range at the time, that's saying something.
    Can we safely assume that this particular "then-fiancee" very soon afterwards became your ex-fiancee? In which case perhaps you have a great deal to thank British Leyland for.
    Nope - still married.

    A racing green metallic Cortina GXL eh?
    I always had a feeling that you came from the Landed Gentry.


    I see I can hide nothing from you - after years of living here I no longer insist on tugged forelocks or doffed caps, which is mighty big of me :-)

    My aforementioned spouse, a Glaswegian with a temper, before her Glaswegian accent became a soft burr with American overtones, in the early years of our marriage, when annoyed, would call me all sorts of names, most of which I couldn't understand as her accent increased in step with her anger. Several came out when I unlocked the All Aggro door with my key.
    You never did say whether the keys to your beloved's All Aggro also operated the lock to your coke bottle shaped Dagenham beauty ..... I think we should be told.
    No it didn't. The all aggro key was so worn I had trouble starting the engine. It would stick in the ignition until you got the knack of how to turn it.

    I was going to talk about my beloved until I realized you meant my wife.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    TGOHF said:

    Smarmeron said:

    My answer would be no, Though I would expect the managers and doctors to find out why, and remedy the situation.
    Your problem is that you are so fanatical that you can't see that while the "market" has good points, it also has no inbuilt social responsibility.
    I need not show you that it lacks responsibility, you can pick up almost any paper at random and read about it yourself.

    Patients don't want social responsibility - they want the best hip surgery.
    You forget the interconnectedness of health care. If you take away the bread and butter elective work such as hip surgery and you make other services no longer viable, and wind up with no training of the next generation of hip surgeons and no fracture service, as this has to close down as non-economic.

    The national tariff system means that the producer gets the same price, even if using cheap replacements that wear out, and has no teaching or training role, or obligation to deal with emergencies.

    This is not scaremongering, I have seen the effects in the East Midlands.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Smarmeron said:

    @Richard_Nabavi
    The privatisation of all, and the logical rule of free market capitalism?
    I am afraid that like all fanatics, your rationality is suspect.

    Do you have an issue with your GP being a private provider?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tim_B said:

    meanwhile, the NFL and its discipline issues continues to roll on........

    Ray Rice is serving a 2 game ban for knocking his then-fiancee now wife unconscious and dragging her out of an elevator at an Atlantic City casino, captured in a harrowing video. Yep, she married him after all and then blamed herself for being knocked out.

    Josh Gordon is facing a potential season long ban for a positive marijuana test. One sample was 1 nanogram above the limit, the other below. His appeal is on Friday.

    Meanwhile the NFL seems to be giving Jim Irsay every possible benefit of every possible doubt, and his trial date is next month. EVERYBODY is watching this one.

    The NFL is trying to improve its appeal to women, and it seems to be working very well. The Gordon vs Rice comparison doesn't really work well for that.

    Also I can report the first sighting of the Commonwealth games on US TV - a 41 shot table tennis rally on SportsCenter.

    It's a shameful comparison, marijuana is hardly a performance enhancing drug either.
    Josh Gordon's defense is 'second hand smoke' :-)
    It's crackers, I can't possibly think how smoking pot would enhance his performance at anything let alone playing American Football - or is it one of these 'role model' type bans, in which case having smoking pot at a season and beating your wife at 2 matches sends out a horrendous message !
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    saddened said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Richard_Nabavi
    The privatisation of all, and the logical rule of free market capitalism?
    I am afraid that like all fanatics, your rationality is suspect.

    Do you have an issue with your GP being a private provider?
    Why would you? What difference would it make?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited July 2014
    @saddened
    No, but as their system is coming under strain at the moment, it appears the market model might need tweaked?
    Remember that while those GP's who are handing out the warnings, may just be looking for more money, they might equally be a symptom of a "market " breakdown?
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Richard_Nabavi
    The privatisation of all, and the logical rule of free market capitalism?
    I am afraid that like all fanatics, your rationality is suspect.

    Do you have an issue with your GP being a private provider?
    Why would you? What difference would it make?
    No I don't which is the point. It just amuses me that many of the people who bang on about privatization of the NHS are the same people who will tell all and sundry how marvellous their GP is.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Pulpstar said:

    Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tim_B said:

    meanwhile, the NFL and its discipline issues continues to roll on........

    Ray Rice is serving a 2 game ban for knocking his then-fiancee now wife unconscious and dragging her out of an elevator at an Atlantic City casino, captured in a harrowing video. Yep, she married him after all and then blamed herself for being knocked out.

    Josh Gordon is facing a potential season long ban for a positive marijuana test. One sample was 1 nanogram above the limit, the other below. His appeal is on Friday.

    Meanwhile the NFL seems to be giving Jim Irsay every possible benefit of every possible doubt, and his trial date is next month. EVERYBODY is watching this one.

    The NFL is trying to improve its appeal to women, and it seems to be working very well. The Gordon vs Rice comparison doesn't really work well for that.

    Also I can report the first sighting of the Commonwealth games on US TV - a 41 shot table tennis rally on SportsCenter.

    It's a shameful comparison, marijuana is hardly a performance enhancing drug either.
    Josh Gordon's defense is 'second hand smoke' :-)
    It's crackers, I can't possibly think how smoking pot would enhance his performance at anything let alone playing American Football - or is it one of these 'role model' type bans, in which case having smoking pot at a season and beating your wife at 2 matches sends out a horrendous message !
    On the onehand, this is not his first offense at this, but at least his third - hence the draconian punishment. He also has a DWI charge outstanding. Hardly Mr Innocent.

    On the other hand -

    Gordon's "A" sample tested at 16 nanograms per milliliter, a bare one nanogram per milliliter above the 15-nanogram-per-milliliter threshold, while Gordon's "B" sample -- which should theoretically be consistent with the "A" sample, as it comes from the exact same specimen -- tested at 13.63 ng/ml, lower than the threshold.

    With both samples coming from the same specimen test, the results should be consistent. Gordon's attorneys do not believe their client should be suspended for a year for differing disputed test results, especially when only one was barely higher than the threshold, sources said.


    http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11281430/josh-gordon-legal-team-say-second-hand-smoke-reason-positive-marijuana-test

    NFL players play through pain much of the time, and marijuana is apparently good at easing pain.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2014

    Charles said:

    Mr. Eagles, might not be on for it. Sounds suspiciously Caesarian.

    Nope. Nothing to do with Caesar. But is two classical history related things.
    I shall look forward to it, Mr. E, though I might say at this point I am really an English medievalist by scholarship and inclination, with a very big dose of WWI for variety, not a classical history wallah at all (save as is necessary for gently winding up Mr. Dancer).

    My historical knowledge is vast, it allows me to compare the brilliant strategists from the ages such as Caesar and Schwarzkopf, to the inept ones, such as Hannibal and Ed Miliband, so expect more medieval and WWI references in the future
    What about the long nineteenth century*?

    We are deprived and neglected here on PB!

    * Admittedly a phrase coined by a notable Marxist, but you can't have everything...
    I cover all centuries.
    But not fairly. Typical Tory - abusing your position to favour your own interests ;-)
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    How do I include a jpg as part of a comment?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Tim_B
    Apparently it can work extremely well in some circumstances, but it is not the panacea the "medical outlets" claim either
    still, all round legalisation in some of the states should make future studies easier there.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Support Iraqi Christians. Make a donation.
    http://frrme.org/get-involved/donate/
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Tim_B
    One of the founders of the Constitution apparently grew and smoked it....Jefferson rings a bell, but I would need to google the quote.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Smarmeron said:

    @Tim_B
    Apparently it can work extremely well in some circumstances, but it is not the panacea the "medical outlets" claim either
    still, all round legalisation in some of the states should make future studies easier there.

    Last year's Superbowl being played between a Colorado team and a California team, the two states where it's legal, made for some interesting comments.

    As a total non-pothead, I figured weed was basically weed. I was amazed at the - literally - dozens of kinds you can buy in the legal stores, all with their own variations of strength and effectiveness.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Tim_B
    Could the present law in most of the states be declared "unconstitutional" then? :-)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    surbiton said:
    Jesus, just how big is Ed Miliband's hand ?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Smarmeron said:

    @Tim_B
    Could the present law in most of the states be declared "unconstitutional" then? :-)

    Under federal law it is illegal, but Obama has anounced that it will not be enforced in CO and CA.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Tim_B
    There are two basic compounds, THC, which gives you the mental high, and CBD which is a relaxant. the balance between the two can vary until you find the right combination.
    Pot heads just want to "have their tits blown of by it" :-)
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Smarmeron said:

    Tim_B
    There are two basic compounds, THC, which gives you the mental high, and CBD which is a relaxant. the balance between the two can vary until you find the right combination.
    Pot heads just want to "have their tits blown of by it" :-)

    You must be inhaling second hand smoke - did you mean "off"? :-)
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Tim_B
    Rational debate about drugs law will never be possible here until the States finally work what the stance should be. (And the "Yanks" complain about their democracy being slow to respond?)
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Tim_B
    "You must be inhaling second hand smoke"
    I plead the "fifth"
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Smarmeron said:

    @Tim_B
    Rational debate about drugs law will never be possible here until the States finally work what the stance should be. (And the "Yanks" complain about their democracy being slow to respond?)

    So you are here in the US also?

    I used to be all for making these drugs illegal, but after decades and billions of dollars in the attempt, it has not worked.

    I came to the conclusion a few years ago that it was nonsense and it was time to legalize them. Now that CO and CA have legalized them and on Sunday the Grey Lady came out for legalization, I think the dam has burst and it's only a matter of time.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Smarmeron said:

    @Tim_B
    "You must be inhaling second hand smoke"
    I plead the "fifth"

    Are you Lois Lerner's love child? :-)
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited July 2014
    @Tim_B
    Scotland, the "plea" was a joke ;-)
    It has been nonsense all those years in the case of pot and some other things, but some substances are almost as addictive as tobacco, You would still need strict licensing laws.
    (with the proviso that the government is aware that too "strict" will just lead to smuggling.)
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    My wife's a Glaswegian which is probably why I can read what you type so easily :-)
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    I was just sent a cruel pic on facebook. Over a photo of a tornado it says -

    Tornado warning in Texas!

    All residents advised to go to Cowboys Stadium - no chance of a touchdown there.

    - and I'm not a fan :-)
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    (Previous thread)

    "Blame" for the "cuts"??? You mean "credit for the cuts", and "blame for the fact that the cuts were necessary". That's what the poll should be asking about, instead of putting "blame" and "cuts" in the same question like that.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    I just noticed #16!
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited July 2014
    JohnLoony said:

    (Previous thread)

    "Blame" for the "cuts"??? You mean "credit for the cuts", and "blame for the fact that the cuts were necessary". That's what the poll should be asking about, instead of putting "blame" and "cuts" in the same question like that.

    Except people don't agree with you. 60% of the public see no need for 5 years more of austerity - including an even greater proportion of UKIP voters (to pick up on the very accurate thread earlier about Kippers having Labour-like economic views).



    Thinking about the state of Britain's economy and the amount the government spends and borrows, which of these statements comes closest to your view, even if you don't completely agree with them?

    The national economy is not yet fully fixed, so we will need to continue with cuts in government spending over the next 5 years: 41%
    While a period of austerity was needed, we don't need another 5 years of cuts: 25%
    Cuts were never really needed, it was just used as an excuse to cut public services: 34%

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/ANP-summary-140527.pdf
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    No comments for three hours? Where is the night-shift at?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    No comments for three hours? Where is the night-shift at?

    Watering the garden.

    Takes ages using a watering can rather than sprinklers :-(
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Danny565 said:

    JohnLoony said:

    (Previous thread)

    "Blame" for the "cuts"??? You mean "credit for the cuts", and "blame for the fact that the cuts were necessary". That's what the poll should be asking about, instead of putting "blame" and "cuts" in the same question like that.

    Except people don't agree with you. ...
    Well obviously those people are stupid then.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    No comments for three hours? Where is the night-shift at?

    Watering the garden.

    Takes ages using a watering can rather than sprinklers :-(
    I imagine you save quite a bit of water doing it manually though!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece

    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2014
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    No comments for three hours? Where is the night-shift at?

    Watering the garden.

    Takes ages using a watering can rather than sprinklers :-(
    I imagine you save quite a bit of water doing it manually though!
    Life would be so much easier if Nevada and Arizona didn't steal all our water!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.

    When are we going to get Indyref polling crossover? Only six weeks to go...

    I am considering bringing forward my Burns night to Sept 19th this year to celebrate Scotland embracing the Union in a plebiscite for the first time.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    When are we going to get Indyref polling crossover? Only six weeks to go...

    I am considering bringing forward my Burns night to Sept 19th this year to celebrate Scotland embracing the Union in a plebiscite for the first time.

    Who cares about polls, it is the vote that counts. I would not make to many plans, you could always turn it into a wake mind you, if you get over the shock.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The summer skirmishing has begun, and already the first casualty has been identified: Ed Miliband. As the preliminary bombardment ahead of the election campaign proper took its toll, the Labour leader attempted this weekend to make a virtue of his negative image, admitting he was “not going to be able to compete” with David Cameron in terms of superficial appeal. This was widely judged to be an error, and a disingenuous one at that.

    Mr Miliband did not look or sound sincere because, in this respect, he is not. Far from scorning PR gimmicks, some part of him wants to be Ed the Human Cannonball, the super stuntman. He is not alone in this aspiration. Senior Labour figures have been muttering for some time that their leader should do fewer speeches and produce more snappy interventions to engage voters’ imagination. “If something wouldn’t make a topic for a Radio Five Live phone-in, then why are we doing it?” says one staffer.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10998114/Ed-Miliband-the-Human-Cannonball-has-those-nasty-Tories-in-his-sights.html
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.

    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
  • Item 16 on the nighthawks list - the fart machine. LOL! That guy is my new hero. I start my day with a belly laugh. Thanks so much for posting this.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MSmithsonPB: #IndyRef YES now being rated as just 14.2% chance by punters on Betfair - almost lowest level yet http://t.co/LCfMjg0pU3
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Perdix,

    Thanks for the link.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Danny565 said:

    JohnLoony said:

    (Previous thread)

    "Blame" for the "cuts"??? You mean "credit for the cuts", and "blame for the fact that the cuts were necessary". That's what the poll should be asking about, instead of putting "blame" and "cuts" in the same question like that.

    Except people don't agree with you. 60% of the public see no need for 5 years more of austerity - including an even greater proportion of UKIP voters (to pick up on the very accurate thread earlier about Kippers having Labour-like economic views).



    Thinking about the state of Britain's economy and the amount the government spends and borrows, which of these statements comes closest to your view, even if you don't completely agree with them?

    The national economy is not yet fully fixed, so we will need to continue with cuts in government spending over the next 5 years: 41%
    While a period of austerity was needed, we don't need another 5 years of cuts: 25%
    Cuts were never really needed, it was just used as an excuse to cut public services: 34%

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/ANP-summary-140527.pdf
    What a fantastic job the media have done in providing people with the facts.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,701
    Scott_P said:

    The summer skirmishing has begun, and already the first casualty has been identified: Ed Miliband. As the preliminary bombardment ahead of the election campaign proper took its toll, the Labour leader attempted this weekend to make a virtue of his negative image, admitting he was “not going to be able to compete” with David Cameron in terms of superficial appeal. This was widely judged to be an error, and a disingenuous one at that.

    Mr Miliband did not look or sound sincere because, in this respect, he is not. Far from scorning PR gimmicks, some part of him wants to be Ed the Human Cannonball, the super stuntman. He is not alone in this aspiration. Senior Labour figures have been muttering for some time that their leader should do fewer speeches and produce more snappy interventions to engage voters’ imagination. “If something wouldn’t make a topic for a Radio Five Live phone-in, then why are we doing it?” says one staffer.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10998114/Ed-Miliband-the-Human-Cannonball-has-those-nasty-Tories-in-his-sights.html

    TBH, I’m not sure that it is an error. Cameron’s known to be an ex-PR man, and widely seen to be an example of the "worst type" of such. Emphasising substance over style is probably a good way to go.
    Of course, he’s got to show some evidence that in office he’ll have some substance, too!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Emphasising substance over style is probably a good way to go.

    Ed has no substance. He likes spin more than Cameron, he just isn't good at it.

    Given the choice between a statement in the HoC about major International events, or a selfie with a lame duck, which does the man of substance choose?

    Answers on a postcard
  • One of two things is going to happen in a month or so:
    1. We get possibly the biggest polling cock-up in history; or
    2. Scotland votes NO

    Hmmm......I think that guy who put 400,000 on NO at 4/1 is going to make just about the easiest 100,000 ever.

    It will not be too hard to distinguish MalcolmG from a ray of sunshine the day after.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.

    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying.

    Blind faith is all that is required. The Great and Mighty Eck has spoken.

    Death to the unbelievers
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.

    I've got a Norwegian Blue I could sell you...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.


    It used to be a concern.

    Didn't someone once say the pound was a millstone holding Scotland back.

    Now who was that gullible fool?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.


    What about us not in Westminster who will vote against politicos who try and share our currency with a foreign country ?
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.


    Listen to yourself Malcolm! And then listen to Osborne, Balls, the LibDems. This is not within Scotland's control. If the rUK doesn't want to be lender of last resort, their taxpayers to cover Scottish banking risk - then they won't. I think you're the gullible one here.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.
    What about us not in Westminster who will vote against politicos who try and share our currency with a foreign country ?
    A u-turn in favour of a popular policy is called "pragmatic" - one in favour of an unpopular one "suicidal" - I fear our friends in the North spend so long speaking to each other they are oblivious to opinions other than their own......and rUK voters will have a say......not even crap Ed is suicidal......
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited July 2014
    @Thescreamingeagles

    You were right about the Monday Yougov poll being an outlier btw - but perhaps not for the reasons you expected:

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/vgv6n1f9ud/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-280714.pdf

    469/1658 Conservative respondents
    459/1658 Labour respondents

    The 39 Lab - 33 Con was a Conservative favourable outlier.

    Either an outlier or you'll need to send Basil a message.

    So in fact it was actually #crossovermonday
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.
    What about us not in Westminster who will vote against politicos who try and share our currency with a foreign country ?

    Well, remember it is in no-one's interests to sabotage an independent Scotland. It's not as if they are going to tow the country into the mid-Atlantic. Scotland will continue to use the Scottish pound, much as now, with a 1:1 exchange rate. Whether there is formal currency union, or none, or some sort of grand committee of the two nations, can be sorted out later.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.
    It used to be a concern.

    Didn't someone once say the pound was a millstone holding Scotland back.

    Now who was that gullible fool?
    Our very own SeanT covered this too:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100261518/scotland-will-not-be-bullied-by-reality-says-alex-salmond/
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Scott_P said:

    Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying.

    Blind faith is all that is required. The Great and Mighty Eck has spoken.

    Death to the unbelievers
    Usual drivel from you Scott, anything intelligent to add to the debate.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.
    It used to be a concern.

    Didn't someone once say the pound was a millstone holding Scotland back.

    Now who was that gullible fool?
    Our very own SeanT covered this too:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100261518/scotland-will-not-be-bullied-by-reality-says-alex-salmond/


    Carlotta grovels at the feet of Sean, another unionist with nothing to add. You and Scott are made for each other.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.
    What about us not in Westminster who will vote against politicos who try and share our currency with a foreign country ?
    Well, remember it is in no-one's interests to sabotage an independent Scotland. It's not as if they are going to tow the country into the mid-Atlantic. Scotland will continue to use the Scottish pound, much as now, with a 1:1 exchange rate. Whether there is formal currency union, or none, or some sort of grand committee of the two nations, can be sorted out later.

    John, Careful you will upset the frothers.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    edited July 2014
    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.
    What about us not in Westminster who will vote against politicos who try and share our currency with a foreign country ?

    So you will swap the Tories for LabourTories , big deal. They will deal with the devil if they make money on it , surely you have enough braincells to realise that they are lying cheating good for nothings. Plenty of proof for anybody that can read.

    PS I presume you will have hard choice between UKIP and BNP to make then.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Patrick said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.
    Listen to yourself Malcolm! And then listen to Osborne, Balls, the LibDems. This is not within Scotland's control. If the rUK doesn't want to be lender of last resort, their taxpayers to cover Scottish banking risk - then they won't. I think you're the gullible one here.

    Patrick, you certainly make me laugh , hear no evil , see no evil and speak no evil. You talk about gullible and then serve up 3 of the biggest liars in the world. Are you seriously telling me that you believe a word that these losers utter. Get real.
  • TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.
    What about us not in Westminster who will vote against politicos who try and share our currency with a foreign country ?
    Well, remember it is in no-one's interests to sabotage an independent Scotland. It's not as if they are going to tow the country into the mid-Atlantic. Scotland will continue to use the Scottish pound, much as now, with a 1:1 exchange rate. Whether there is formal currency union, or none, or some sort of grand committee of the two nations, can be sorted out later.

    There is a world of difference between a formal arrangement whereby rUK shares its currency with a foreign nation (not going to happen) and an informal one where Scotland uses the rUK pound in the same way Panama uses the $. Eck has been promising a formal agrement that is not politically doable in the rUK. To my mind this is basically a lie to the Scottish electorate.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    edited July 2014
    Patrick said:

    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.
    What about us not in Westminster who will vote against politicos who try and share our currency with a foreign country ?
    sorted out later.
    There is a world of difference between a formal arrangement whereby rUK shares its currency with a foreign nation (not going to happen) and an informal one where Scotland uses the rUK pound in the same way Panama uses the $. Eck has been promising a formal agrement that is not politically doable in the rUK. To my mind this is basically a lie to the Scottish electorate.

    Patrick, we will see who the liars are , past history tells us it is Westminster who have serial form on changing their minds when it suits. You are very easily taken in given past evidence. Salmond has promised nothing of the sort, he has said that the SNP if they are in government have the preferred option of currency union. One of several options but their preferred one.
    Only the fools from Westminster have left themselves hostage to fortune by lying and stating there will not be a CU. Much bluster and lying will be required.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited July 2014
    Malc admitting dollarisation is the only option.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dollarisation will see the end of Scottish bank notes - some independence.
  • MalcolmG

    I agree with you wholeheartedly that politiicans are largely a bunch of lying, cheating, untrustworthy scumbags - to varying degrees. But what I also don't doubt is that they want to get elected. Or that the public losses / private gains element of banking is wildly unpopular. So....there is no doubt going to be a political / electoral driver to the currency endgame. The party that comes to rUK electorate / taxpayer saying 'I think it would be good for you to cover the risks of Scottish bank failure' is a brave one (in the Sir Humphey sense). There is no doubt that the moment a YES vote was announced that there would develop a them vs us mindset to the negotiations. It would be hugely in Scotland's interest to share a currency. It would be hugely not in rUK's interest to do so. Any feasible arrangement involving a shared currency would then necessarily involve a Westminster veto on Scottish tax and spending decisions - so not really 'indpendence' after all.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Another day, another Culloden…
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    edited July 2014

    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Two of the UK’s most experienced and formidable bankers have joined the independence debate to accuse Alex Salmond of deceiving Scots over currency union following a “yes” vote.

    Sir Martin Jacomb, the former chairman of Prudential, and Sir Andrew Large, the former deputy governor of the Bank of England, claim in an article published in The Times today that the first minister is not being honest over what they say is the most important issue in the independence debate.

    Such a hard-hitting intervention by two such senior figures will reopen the controversy over the currency options for an independent Scotland.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/referendum/article4161615.ece
    Ha Ha Ha , only dumb unionists could imagine that using Bankers would help them. Below scraping the barrel now, just how desperate can they get.
    Isn't there a paradox here? Surely it is people like you who are confident Scotland will vote for independence who need to be concerned about what the bankers are saying. Only if Scotland votes no, does it become moot what might have been the currency arrangements.
    Currency is not a concern , we will be using the pound , our current and future currency. Only liars in Westminster try to make out different for the gullible.
    What about us not in Westminster who will vote against politicos who try and share our currency with a foreign country ?
    Well, remember it is in no-one's interests to sabotage an independent Scotland. It's not as if they are going to tow the country into the mid-Atlantic. Scotland will continue to use the Scottish pound, much as now, with a 1:1 exchange rate. Whether there is formal currency union, or none, or some sort of grand committee of the two nations, can be sorted out later.

    Absolutely - a likely outcome if Scotland votes yes - only it means handing control over the currency to the UK - interest rates, money supply, etc, etc. Quite difficult to call that any kind of meaningful independence.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    New thread.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    It is obvious that Scottish independence would be a major blow to one of our largest industries and major employers. Being a part of a much larger economic unit has allowed our financial services to grow multiple times beyond what would be sustainable in an independent country.

    But if you were trying your absolute hardest to maximise that damage you would choose a situation where we continued to use Sterling without a lender of last resort or the cover of London based financial regulation. I simply do not see how any financial service provider bigger than a local savings bank could survive in such a scenario.

    A Scottish pound tied, for at least for a preliminary period, to sterling would make much more sense. Our financial services industry would still need to shrink by about 80% but the job implications of this would be in the thousands rather than the tens of thousands as the major banks, Standard Life, Scottish Widows and some others took their registration (and of course their tax base) south but much of their back office remained and in all likelihood some smaller players establishing "offshore" took their place.

    The truth is that the SNP decided that their policy was to try to sell Independence as not very different at all and keeping the currency was a key plank of that. So far as can be ascertained the economic implications of the policy were not considered at all.

    Last night we even had the truly bizarre position of Pete Wishart MP and several other SNP worthies explaining how they were voting yes but how they treasured their Britishness which would not be affected!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Patrick said:

    MalcolmG

    I agree with you wholeheartedly that politiicans are largely a bunch of lying, cheating, untrustworthy scumbags - to varying degrees. But what I also don't doubt is that they want to get elected. Or that the public losses / private gains element of banking is wildly unpopular. So....there is no doubt going to be a political / electoral driver to the currency endgame. The party that comes to rUK electorate / taxpayer saying 'I think it would be good for you to cover the risks of Scottish bank failure' is a brave one (in the Sir Humphey sense). There is no doubt that the moment a YES vote was announced that there would develop a them vs us mindset to the negotiations. It would be hugely in Scotland's interest to share a currency. It would be hugely not in rUK's interest to do so. Any feasible arrangement involving a shared currency would then necessarily involve a Westminster veto on Scottish tax and spending decisions - so not really 'indpendence' after all.

    They will get elected in 2015 and park the issue till next time , be sure of it. It will not involve any Westminster veto either, it will mean rules that both agree to on spending limits , not exactly a bad thing. All other powers that are currently with Westminster will be available so it is real independence after all.
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