Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Hammond has the right coalition-building idea

13

Comments

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,375
    sam said:



    malcolmg said:

    sam said:

    sam said:


    Also almost no one in London knows or cares who Salmond is I suppose

    Possibly. But in that case what sort of swivel-eyed loon would fantasise about him being barricaded in an east end pub by ravening EDL hordes.

    I didnt fantasise about anything!!!

    I said imagine the roles were reversed, I couldnt care less about Scottish independence or Alex Salmond, and I doubt if anyone I know has ever heard of him. Means as much to me as France as Hollande.

    Sam, quit while you are behind and stick to pontificating on % of white faces in areas of London, leave things you know nothing about alone.
    Thanks for the advice., but Ill do what I like

    It was good publicity for UKIP so alls well

    Did not help them in Scotland much but maybe he is a genius and helped him in his heartland.
  • Lewis_DuckworthLewis_Duckworth Posts: 90
    edited May 2013
    My earlier post today was an empirical proposition [what is] rather than a value judgement [what ought to be]. Off to the golf club now, moving from a Labour Constituency (B'ham Selly Oak) to a Conservative one [Bromsgrove]. That's means far fewer chav encounters. Toodleloo Tim, SO**, and other PCers.

    ** The absurd man who denied white flight, 2001-11.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    MikeK said:

    OMG! The PB Scottish have certainly got their kilts in a twist this morning. Must be the lack of news this morning.

    I now expect some dirty old sporrans to be thrown my way.

    Mike , you big yourself up too much. We just enjoyed the supposed saviour of England being shown up to be as bad as the other straw men in Westminster. We now have 4 proven donkeys leading political parties in England.
    With Salmond being a fifth donkey north of the border?

    :)
    Intelligent answer from you as usual, did you buy that "Dr" in a joke shop.
    More teenage rebellion from our Malcolm, as usual!

    :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    IOS said:

    And as for people who oppose Gay marriage? Sorry, you really have no leg to stand on in my view. It's just the same as saying people of different races shouldn't get married.

    Not many open anti-miscegenationists out there thesedays, thankfully.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,375
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    MikeK said:

    OMG! The PB Scottish have certainly got their kilts in a twist this morning. Must be the lack of news this morning.

    I now expect some dirty old sporrans to be thrown my way.

    Mike , you big yourself up too much. We just enjoyed the supposed saviour of England being shown up to be as bad as the other straw men in Westminster. We now have 4 proven donkeys leading political parties in England.
    With Salmond being a fifth donkey north of the border?

    :)
    Intelligent answer from you as usual, did you buy that "Dr" in a joke shop.
    Salmond's good, much of the time, but given the likelihood of donkeys rising to heads of their parties (4 for 4 south of the border as was suggested), I'd have thought the odds were good for north as well, in the spirit of fairness.

    How many of the Scottish leaders are proven donkeys in your estimation? At least 2 I'd have thought.

    I am for independence but not an SNP lackey. He is the only serious politician in Scotland. The regional leaders of the London parties are diabolical. So his only real opposition is the green leader given that the SNP and Greens are the only two Scottish parties. The London parties as you would expect put even worse people in charge in their fiefdoms.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,375

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    MikeK said:

    OMG! The PB Scottish have certainly got their kilts in a twist this morning. Must be the lack of news this morning.

    I now expect some dirty old sporrans to be thrown my way.

    Mike , you big yourself up too much. We just enjoyed the supposed saviour of England being shown up to be as bad as the other straw men in Westminster. We now have 4 proven donkeys leading political parties in England.
    With Salmond being a fifth donkey north of the border?

    :)
    Intelligent answer from you as usual, did you buy that "Dr" in a joke shop.
    More teenage rebellion from our Malcolm, as usual!

    :)
    I wish I could get even close to being even a double teenager again
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited May 2013

    The Scotland racist test could be:

    Are Scottish people pro the Scottish or anti the English?

    It is normally suggested that when any sporting team plays England, Scottish people consistently support the team playing against England. If this is true it does suggest prejudice of some kind.

    Are the English a race however and is being anti English being racist? Not sure.


    I wouldnt say it is racist as English isnt a race

    I dont get the hostility, I support Scotland when they play teams that arent from UK or Ireland in sport, theyre like our brothers.

    But still I would say let them have their independence, I want to be English not British and Im sure Scots would like to say Scottish instead of British

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    MrJones said:

    Looking at the ONS productivity numbers, they give an increase per decade of:

    1972-1982 27.2%
    1982-1992 28.4%
    1992-2002 28.3%
    2002-2012 8.7%

    Doesn't look like all those highly educated immigrants have done much good does it or for that matter our record exam marks students.

    Though that really isn't their fault more an effect on the changing nature of the UK economy. The shift towards a consumer service economy means that the workforce becomes increasingly dominated by low skilled employment which have much lower rates of productivity improvement.

    In the short term this means higher employment which governments like but it has disasterous long term consequences.

    Between 1972 and 2002 productivity grew on average by 2.5% per year - which is the rate the government assumes when making its long term spending and investing plans.

    If we're now stuck in a phase of productivity growth of less than half that then those spending plans become unaffordable and the debate becomes about which groups in society get the promises made to them broken.

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data-selector.html?cdid=LZVB&dataset=lms&table-id=17

    There's less incentive to improve productivity if you have an endless supply of cheap labour.
    True but I think its more than that.

    The £100bn+ this country has been living beyond its means for the last decade has been ploughed into personal consumption rather than infrastructure and business investment.

    The UK has become a hand carwash and coffee shop economy.

    Not areas of high skill or high productivity growth potential.
    Yeah i see your specific structural point and it makes sense. I was just throwing in the general one that if a company wants to increase profits and have the option of importing cheaper labour then that's the easiest way to do it. If they don't have that option then they have to look at productivity or innovation instead.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,375
    sam said:

    The Scotland racist test could be:

    Are Scottish people pro the Scottish or anti the English?

    It is normally suggested that when any sporting team plays England, Scottish people consistently support the team playing against England. If this is true it does suggest prejudice of some kind.

    Are the English a race however and is being anti English being racist? Not sure.


    I wouldnt say it is racist as English isnt a race

    I dont get the hostility, I support Scotland when they play teams that arent from UK or Ireland in sport, theyre like our brothers.

    But still I would say let them have their independence, I want to be English not British and Im sure Scots would like to say Scottish instead of British

    Very true sam , and the sporting factor is overplayed. Of course their is a competitive streak between the two countries and given the size difference Scotland is going to have a bit more of a chip on their shoulder, but vast majority of people are in no way anti - English.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,656

    Re: ONS productivity figures posted by Another Richard

    1972-1982 27.2%
    1982-1992 28.4%
    1992-2002 28.3%
    2002-2012 8.7%

    Has this been affected this time by employers opting to keep on staff at reduced rates while the recession lasts, rather than lay off and then re-employ later as had previously been the case. Employment levels have held up remarkably well over the last 5 years.

    That might well be a factor but it should have been an increasingly small one as time passes and natural wastage reduces any excess headcount.

    But UK productivity numbers are now actually falling while unit labour costs steadily increase.

    Not good in a globalised world economy where the productivity of our competitors is increasing.

    And with that a good day to all, its time for me to do some work and listen to some cricket.
  • samsam Posts: 727

    @Sam

    "As I said, no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond or gives a stroke about Scottish Independence"

    Come off it.

    800,000 Scots born in Scotland live in other parts of the UK. It would be fair to say that at least a few of them live in London. On top of which, there are quite a few Londoners that follow political developments and given the amount of coverage Salmond personally gets in the English media - see yesterday's conflab with Farage, for example - I'd say it is impossible to make a believable case for him being unknown.

    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Look I know you are a kind of human tipp ex for any post that I make (not anyones elses though) but you must realise I was making a general point, and slightly trying to wind up MalcolmG, who obviously knew thats what I was doing.

    Stop with the constant hair splitting, you are reminding me of Mr Logic in Viz

    I still say most English people in London wouldnt recognise Alex Salmond if he walked into the pub, I have no evidence to back this up, feel free to disagree.

    Ive got lots of mates whove never heard of him if we are swapping pointless anecdotes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    sam said:

    The Scotland racist test could be:

    Are Scottish people pro the Scottish or anti the English?

    It is normally suggested that when any sporting team plays England, Scottish people consistently support the team playing against England. If this is true it does suggest prejudice of some kind.

    Are the English a race however and is being anti English being racist? Not sure.


    But still I would say let them have their independence, I want to be English not British and Im sure Scots would like to say Scottish instead of British

    Some, probably the majority unfortunately from my point of view, likely do. I on the other hand want to be both, and it saddens me that many Scots do not share that view, but it is what it is.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    MikeK said:

    OMG! The PB Scottish have certainly got their kilts in a twist this morning. Must be the lack of news this morning.

    I now expect some dirty old sporrans to be thrown my way.

    Mike , you big yourself up too much. We just enjoyed the supposed saviour of England being shown up to be as bad as the other straw men in Westminster. We now have 4 proven donkeys leading political parties in England.
    With Salmond being a fifth donkey north of the border?

    :)
    Intelligent answer from you as usual, did you buy that "Dr" in a joke shop.
    Salmond's good, much of the time, but given the likelihood of donkeys rising to heads of their parties (4 for 4 south of the border as was suggested), I'd have thought the odds were good for north as well, in the spirit of fairness.

    How many of the Scottish leaders are proven donkeys in your estimation? At least 2 I'd have thought.

    I am for independence but not an SNP lackey. He is the only serious politician in Scotland. The regional leaders of the London parties are diabolical. So his only real opposition is the green leader given that the SNP and Greens are the only two Scottish parties. The London parties as you would expect put even worse people in charge in their fiefdoms.
    Salmond is the only formidible politician in Britain (that is in a position of authority anyway) . It's a source of great frustration to me that the pro-unionists are too often left in his dust, it's no wonder the SNP even gets votes from some unionists (though how many I would not know)

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,405
    When Obama opposed gay marriage (up till 12 months ago), I doubt if he saw it as being the equivalent of opposing mixed marriages. It's a facile comparison. Gender wasn't something that was brought into marriage in order to preserve racial purity.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,602
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    kle4 said:

    While ultimately preventing him from having a media conference by doing so?

    They didn't. The journos simply followed Farage into the pub (reluctantly I'm sure ;) ) and asked him questions there over a drink (or several). The only reason he left the pub was that the barman and staff wanted them all out.

    Wrong again. According to the police and the pictures taken by the media the news conference was arranged for the pub. The trouble started only when they came to leave the pub and were then confronted by the mob.

    ""Officers responded to the address to facilitate a peaceful demonstration which arose during a UKIP meeting that was taking place inside."

    According to all the reports in the Guardian, Telegraph and on the BBC the new conference was planned, the police were aware in advance of the planned demonstration and had officers there to police it - seemingly not enough though. The owner of the pub asked for the news conference to end because he was concerned about the protesters outside.

    Why do you find it necessary to twist things to make them seem worse for Farage? Are you that insecure in your position?
    Richard, How could it have been worse, he was shown up as a donkey , bereft of any opinion other than shouting " you are bigger Nazi scum than me "at the students. Can you explain how it could have looked worse for him.
    Most people don't see it that way. Certainly not south of the border. When someone is shouting in your face there is only some much reasoned debate you can have.

    From the Guardian:

    "After gamely attempting to argue back, trying to hit back at the repeated accusations of racism and homophobia with protests of innocence, Farage finally had to admit his surprise. "We've never, ever, ever had this kind of response. Is this a kind of anti-English thing? It could be," he said to a reporter."

    So your accusations are (yet again) proved wrong.
    I don't think so and the fact he said it was anti English only shows how bigoted and stupid he is and immediately jumps to wrong conclusion. The proud English student arrested highlights his stupidity. A serious politician would have read the situation and got out of there, not bandied "Nazi Scum" insults with them.
    And once again you are wrong. He did try to get out of there - twice. And both times the protestors blocked the road so his taxi could not take him away.

    This is the thing. If you look at what actually happened as opposed to your own myths about it, he behaved in a perfectly reasonable manner - easily as well as anyone would do when confronted by an angry mob of idiots who have no interest in actually talking to you but only want to shout you down and who may wish to do you harm.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    In other shocking news, apparently the teaching unions don't like Michael Gove.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    IOS said:

    If you take out the word white, which I admit was an exercise in provocative writing to far, I do think their is a serious point behind my posts.

    We need immigrants and immigration benefits Britain hugely. I would go as far to say that Britain has no future economically without attracting lots of hard working, determined foreign born workers.

    UKIP voters are people don't like international capital because they lose out from it. But international capital and free movement of labour are hear to stay so they should get with the program.

    Would it not be better to have our own hard working and determined workers, rather than the combination of migrants and long term unemployment?

    It is certainly a view that foreigners are better qualified, but what would you do for the long term unemployed? Just keep them on the dole forever supervised by east european social workers and Somali policemen?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    sam said:

    @Sam

    "As I said, no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond or gives a stroke about Scottish Independence"

    Come off it.

    800,000 Scots born in Scotland live in other parts of the UK. It would be fair to say that at least a few of them live in London. On top of which, there are quite a few Londoners that follow political developments and given the amount of coverage Salmond personally gets in the English media - see yesterday's conflab with Farage, for example - I'd say it is impossible to make a believable case for him being unknown.

    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Look I know you are a kind of human tipp ex for any post that I make (not anyones elses though) but you must realise I was making a general point, and slightly trying to wind up MalcolmG, who obviously knew thats what I was doing.

    Stop with the constant hair splitting, you are reminding me of Mr Logic in Viz

    I still say most English people in London wouldnt recognise Alex Salmond if he walked into the pub, I have no evidence to back this up, feel free to disagree.

    Ive got lots of mates whove never heard of him if we are swapping pointless anecdotes.

    Lots of my mates have never heard of him = no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond

    Great stuff.

    As I have said before, you do have a habit of overstating things.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,602
    Sean_F said:

    When Obama opposed gay marriage (up till 12 months ago), I doubt if he saw it as being the equivalent of opposing mixed marriages. It's a facile comparison. Gender wasn't something that was brought into marriage in order to preserve racial purity.

    I don't think it is a facile argument.

    Only a week or so ago I was having a very serious argument verging on a bitter falling out with a close family member who complained about the amount of gay references in Dr Who and how it wrongly normalised gay relationships. I was particularly angry because this was said in front of my 12 year old daughter.

    I pointed out that in the 1960s there was a small storm caused in the US because Star Trek showed what was reputed to be (although it wasn't) the first interracial kiss on US TV. I drew the comparison between the two cases and how utterly alien it would feel today to criticise a TV programme for showing an interracial relationship.

    I didn't change their minds, I knew I wouldn't as there is a religious background to their views but I do think the comparison is valid and makes a very good point.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    IOS said:

    If you take out the word white, which I admit was an exercise in provocative writing to far, I do think their is a serious point behind my posts.

    We need immigrants and immigration benefits Britain hugely. I would go as far to say that Britain has no future economically without attracting lots of hard working, determined foreign born workers.

    UKIP voters are people don't like international capital because they lose out from it. But international capital and free movement of labour are hear to stay so they should get with the program.

    You are talking complete bollocks!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    Germany is central european, surely?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    Come on everyone, this type of talk gets us nowhere.
    BTW if Germany is not central Europe I don't know what is.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    You said she was a Czech!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    kle4 said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    Germany is central european, surely?

    Geographically, perhaps, but not politically. It has always been considered part of Western Europe - though maybe you could make a case for the old East Germany, I suppose. I specifically chose the term central and eastern European because I have never heard UKIP or Farage talk about immigraiton from western Europe in the same terms as they talk about immigration from the newer EU member states.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    On Topic.

    "It certainly won’t be easy for any party leader to attract social conservatives while simultaneously winning the support of enough of those who float between parties"

    The danger is that, just like with Romney and the tea party, that posturing to win social conservatives back from UKIP alienates the far more crucial centre voters rather than a base which may still come back when faced with the choice between little Ed and Cammie. How many will come back is of course anyone's guess but few doubt that some of them will.

    You chase that base too hard and you end up having to try and explain the likes of this.
    Ukip donor says women in trousers are 'hostile' and unmarried mothers need a 'smack'

    Businessman who gave £10,000 to Ukip says women in trousers are showing "hostile" behaviour and "date rape" is a feminist invention

    http://www.politicus.org.uk/news/ukip-donor-says-women-in-trousers-are-hostile-and-unmarried-mothers-need-a-smack_647
    Hardly ideal. Far better to stay in the centre ground as Romney also found to his cost.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    You said she was a Czech!

    She is - my business partner's wife is from Moravia. She may be wrong, but when she hears Farage speak she hears hostility towards her and people like her. Just as many English people hear hostility from Salmond and other SNP spokespeople.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,602

    kle4 said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    Germany is central european, surely?

    Geographically, perhaps, but not politically. It has always been considered part of Western Europe - though maybe you could make a case for the old East Germany, I suppose. I specifically chose the term central and eastern European because I have never heard UKIP or Farage talk about immigraiton from western Europe in the same terms as they talk about immigration from the newer EU member states.

    No, it was always considered part of central Europe up until WW2. After that of course central Europe became rather a lost term as we referred to Eastern and Western Europe divided by the Iron Curtain. Even then, with Germany being split between the two it was considered the archetype central European country.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950
    edited May 2013


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    You said she was a Czech!

    She is - my business partner's wife is from Moravia. She may be wrong, but when she hears Farage speak she hears hostility towards her and people like her. Just as many English people hear hostility from Salmond and other SNP spokespeople.

    OMG sorry, I completely misread your sentence - I thought you were referring to Nige!!!

    "He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife"
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950

    kle4 said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    Germany is central european, surely?

    Geographically, perhaps, but not politically. It has always been considered part of Western Europe - though maybe you could make a case for the old East Germany, I suppose. I specifically chose the term central and eastern European because I have never heard UKIP or Farage talk about immigraiton from western Europe in the same terms as they talk about immigration from the newer EU member states.

    No, it was always considered part of central Europe up until WW2. After that of course central Europe became rather a lost term as we referred to Eastern and Western Europe divided by the Iron Curtain. Even then, with Germany being split between the two it was considered the archetype central European country.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe
    Hmmm.... Koenigsberg and Memel are definitely eastern Europe!

    :)
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Rosie loves UKIP ‏@rosaleenauk
    So even though Greece has massive youth unemployment, the problem the EU want to tackle is OLIVE OIL??

    Haha, well said, Rosie. And that is the problem with the EU in an olive (new term for nutshell). ;)
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661

    kle4 said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    Germany is central european, surely?

    Geographically, perhaps, but not politically. It has always been considered part of Western Europe - though maybe you could make a case for the old East Germany, I suppose. I specifically chose the term central and eastern European because I have never heard UKIP or Farage talk about immigraiton from western Europe in the same terms as they talk about immigration from the newer EU member states.

    No, it was always considered part of central Europe up until WW2. After that of course central Europe became rather a lost term as we referred to Eastern and Western Europe divided by the Iron Curtain. Even then, with Germany being split between the two it was considered the archetype central European country.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe

    Alternatively ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

    !!!!!

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    edited May 2013

    kle4 said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    Germany is central european, surely?

    Geographically, perhaps, but not politically. It has always been considered part of Western Europe - though maybe you could make a case for the old East Germany, I suppose. I specifically chose the term central and eastern European because I have never heard UKIP or Farage talk about immigraiton from western Europe in the same terms as they talk about immigration from the newer EU member states.

    No, it was always considered part of central Europe up until WW2. After that of course central Europe became rather a lost term as we referred to Eastern and Western Europe divided by the Iron Curtain. Even then, with Germany being split between the two it was considered the archetype central European country.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe

    Alternatively ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

    !!!!!

    Well, in fairness, it doesn't list Germany as a 'core' Western European state.

    I think it's safe to conclude that the definition of Western/Central Europe is as confused as the extent of Europe itself.

    And here's the UK listed in Northern Europe:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe

    Godsdamnit wikipedia, you're not helping!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,602

    kle4 said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    Germany is central european, surely?

    Geographically, perhaps, but not politically. It has always been considered part of Western Europe - though maybe you could make a case for the old East Germany, I suppose. I specifically chose the term central and eastern European because I have never heard UKIP or Farage talk about immigraiton from western Europe in the same terms as they talk about immigration from the newer EU member states.

    No, it was always considered part of central Europe up until WW2. After that of course central Europe became rather a lost term as we referred to Eastern and Western Europe divided by the Iron Curtain. Even then, with Germany being split between the two it was considered the archetype central European country.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe

    Alternatively ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

    !!!!!

    If you look at your own link SO it makes it clear that it is referring to western Europe in cold war terms. at which time 'central Europe did not really exist. Now that the Iron Curtain is gone we have reverted to the pre war definitions of west, central and eastern europe.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950
    The key to watching the Eurovision Song Contest (reminder - tonight!!) is to remember that the 20-odd dirges songs are merely the warm-up act to the most fun part - the nation-by-nation scoring at the end!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Hungary is the geographical centre of Europe* Mentally, however, it has oscillated between east and west many times. It's currently heading eastwards again.

    *This is the subject of much dispute, but it has a very decent claim to the title.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754

    The key to watching the Eurovision Song Contest (reminder - tonight!!) is to remember that the 20-odd dirges songs are merely the warm-up act to the most fun part - the nation-by-nation scoring at the end!

    The key to watching Eurovision song contest is to read my Eurovision thread that goes up this afternoon, you and antifrank will appreciate it more than most as I get a reference to Depeche Mode in it.

    Curses to ComRes for publishing a poll tonight and ruining my plans for an Eurovision open thread.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, I strongly dislike politicians seeking to build coalitions by trampling over the moral rights of others. Morality and calculation should be kept separate. The fact that such tactics are often very successful is still more annoying.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950
    Assuming Europe extends from the Atlantic to the Urals, the centre of Europe must be halfway between Lisbon and Yekaterinburg in Russia?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754
    On topic, if opposition to gay marriage is the key to winning the Tory leadership, then that is utterly depressing both as a Tory and a human being.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,541



    Brilliantly put.

    15 years ago I lost two colleagues in a tragic car crash whilst they were driving up to head office . One, a brilliant manager, had been trying to have a child with his wife for years. She was heavily pregnant when he died.

    I have no doubt that she has brought up the child to the best of her abilities, despite being a single parent in tragic circumstances.

    What matters is that the child gets the love, care and attention that they need. And whilst it is undoubtedly harder for one parent to achieve that whilst holding down a job and managing with the traumas that life throws at us, tens of thousands of single parents do a brilliant job.

    Society has always recognised and given assistance to Widows, who have to bring up children on their own through new fault of theirs - Until new Labour came along and disgracefully abolished the widows pension, by limiting it to one year after their spouses death rather than until the children grew up.
    Help for parents is more reasonably focused on parents, rather than on all widows whether they are parents or not. Labour is more commonly criticised for giving too much help to parents through child benefits ("encourages big families, makes single women want to get pregnant, waste of taxpayers' money, yadda yadda") - it's odd to see you ticking us off for not doing enough if the parent concerned is a widow. Widows naturally deserve lots of sympathy but not infinite taxpayer support per se.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited May 2013

    sam said:

    @Sam

    "As I said, no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond or gives a stroke about Scottish Independence"

    Come off it.

    800,000 Scots born in Scotland live in other parts of the UK. It would be fair to say that at least a few of them live in London. On top of which, there are quite a few Londoners that follow political developments and given the amount of coverage Salmond personally gets in the English media - see yesterday's conflab with Farage, for example - I'd say it is impossible to make a believable case for him being unknown.

    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Look I know you are a kind of human tipp ex for any post that I make (not anyones elses though) but you must realise I was making a general point, and slightly trying to wind up MalcolmG, who obviously knew thats what I was doing.

    Stop with the constant hair splitting, you are reminding me of Mr Logic in Viz

    I still say most English people in London wouldnt recognise Alex Salmond if he walked into the pub, I have no evidence to back this up, feel free to disagree.

    Ive got lots of mates whove never heard of him if we are swapping pointless anecdotes.

    Lots of my mates have never heard of him = no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond

    Great stuff.

    As I have said before, you do have a habit of overstating things.
    Look you are obviously not stupid and misunderstanding me, so you must be being deliberately pedantic, and I dont see why you'd bother.

    Yes I said "no one in London has ever heard of Alex Salmond", and seeing as I live in London and have heard of him, you must know that I wasnt trying to say it was a fact" NO ONE IN LONDON HAS HEARD OF ALEX SALMOND" and that I meant "not many people have heard of him" (shudder as as I forsee a debate on how many is not many approaching). I dont see why youd bother "correcting" it, when it is obviously a figure of speech, and you must have known that.


    I even admitted I only said it to wind up MalcolmG!

    and still you went on!

    Jesus...

    Although I must admit I was wrong that you only act like Mr Logic towards me, as you are doing it now over whether Germany is in Central Europe or not with...

    two other UKIP supporters...



    The penny has dropped.




  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @TSE I am now in rural Hungary, with the satellite TV ready to be tuned to Erste. I'm back in Budapest in time for the Depeche Mode concert on Tuesday night. So I shall particularly appreciate the thread.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,602
    OT.

    remember what I said the other day about the EU being utterly blind to the way its behaviour helps the Eurosceptics?

    Is it any wonder they are scorned when they pass rules like this?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10064787/EU-to-ban-olive-oil-jugs-from-restaurants.html
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,602
    Oh and on topic sort of, very well done the French last night for beating the Brits at something.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10065679/France-legalises-gay-marriage.html
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Assuming Europe extends from the Atlantic to the Urals, the centre of Europe must be halfway between Lisbon and Yekaterinburg in Russia?

    If only it were that simple:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_midpoint_of_Europe

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754
    antifrank said:

    @TSE I am now in rural Hungary, with the satellite TV ready to be tuned to Erste. I'm back in Budapest in time for the Depeche Mode concert on Tuesday night. So I shall particularly appreciate the thread.

    It's four weeks until I see them in Paris.

    When I say appreciate, I think I'm placing a burden on the English language
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754
    edited May 2013
    All this talk about central Europe reminds me of my determination to try and find out just exactly where Middle England/Middle Britain was.

    I gave up because I was in danger of suffering from mental ennui.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Assuming Europe extends from the Atlantic to the Urals, the centre of Europe must be halfway between Lisbon and Yekaterinburg in Russia?

    IIRC the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires were not known as the Central Powers for nothing.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited May 2013
    tim said:

    @IsabelOakeshott: Tory MPs now calling for swivel eye culprit's head. Real anger out there. Gone by lunchtime??

    Country suppertime surely

    It's not proper fop incompetence till a clearly chastened Nadine has weighed in.
    Nadine Dorries MP ‏@NadineDorriesMP 2h

    Sad that Times and Telegraph choose not to name aide. Indicates that Journalists WAY too close to No 10 operation. #oldboynetwork

    Nadine Dorries MP Nadine Dorries MP ‏@NadineDorriesMP 3h

    In Mid Bedfordshire, membership numbers increasing, activist are hard working, solid, decent, people AND truly representative of electorate

    Nadine Dorries MP Nadine Dorries MP ‏@NadineDorriesMP 3h

    If MP described activists as mad swivel eyed loons' they would be all over the Media. Why don't we know the name of No10 aide? #chummocracy
    I can't see this master strategy of silence from number 10 lasting that much longer.
    In fact it doesn't seem to have occurred to the fops that there is the danger of escalation.
    Tim Montgomerie ‏@TimMontgomerie 22m

    That the Cameroons think Tory members are loons is no surprise. I remember two senior Number 10 aides talking in exactly those terms.
    We could be looking at a full scale twit witch-hunt in the chumocracy. The horror! ;)
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661

    kle4 said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    Germany is central european, surely?

    Geographically, perhaps, but not politically. It has always been considered part of Western Europe - though maybe you could make a case for the old East Germany, I suppose. I specifically chose the term central and eastern European because I have never heard UKIP or Farage talk about immigraiton from western Europe in the same terms as they talk about immigration from the newer EU member states.

    No, it was always considered part of central Europe up until WW2. After that of course central Europe became rather a lost term as we referred to Eastern and Western Europe divided by the Iron Curtain. Even then, with Germany being split between the two it was considered the archetype central European country.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe

    Alternatively ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

    !!!!!

    If you look at your own link SO it makes it clear that it is referring to western Europe in cold war terms. at which time 'central Europe did not really exist. Now that the Iron Curtain is gone we have reverted to the pre war definitions of west, central and eastern europe.

    The link says that the UN defines Germany as a western European country. But this is not something to get bogged down in. For the purposes of the EU, I'd argue that Germany is seen as one of its western European founder members, while the central and eastern states are seen more as those which have joined since the collapse of the Iron Curtain.

    My main point was that you tend to hear a lot less hostility with regards to immigration from countries of the old EU/EEC from UKIP than you do with regards to immigration from the newer member states. My guess is that this is because if you exclude the new member states, the balance between UK EU incomers and out-goers is about even. That is logical, but what Czechs, Poles and the rest may hear is hostility. Just as many English people hear hostility when they listen to people from the SNP, even if none is meant.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950

    The key to watching the Eurovision Song Contest (reminder - tonight!!) is to remember that the 20-odd dirges songs are merely the warm-up act to the most fun part - the nation-by-nation scoring at the end!

    The key to watching Eurovision song contest is to read my Eurovision thread that goes up this afternoon, you and antifrank will appreciate it more than most as I get a reference to Depeche Mode in it.

    Curses to ComRes for publishing a poll tonight and ruining my plans for an Eurovision open thread.
    Look forward to it - may be out mid-afternoon but will be back in time for the start for the show! BTW I'm seeing the Mode in London on the 29th!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    sam said:

    sam said:

    @Sam

    "As I said, no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond or gives a stroke about Scottish Independence"

    Come off it.

    800,000 Scots born in Scotland live in other parts of the UK. It would be fair to say that at least a few of them live in London. On top of which, there are quite a few Londoners that follow political developments and given the amount of coverage Salmond personally gets in the English media - see yesterday's conflab with Farage, for example - I'd say it is impossible to make a believable case for him being unknown.

    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Look I know you are a kind of human tipp ex for any post that I make (not anyones elses though) but you must realise I was making a general point, and slightly trying to wind up MalcolmG, who obviously knew thats what I was doing.

    Stop with the constant hair splitting, you are reminding me of Mr Logic in Viz

    I still say most English people in London wouldnt recognise Alex Salmond if he walked into the pub, I have no evidence to back this up, feel free to disagree.

    Ive got lots of mates whove never heard of him if we are swapping pointless anecdotes.

    Lots of my mates have never heard of him = no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond

    Great stuff.

    As I have said before, you do have a habit of overstating things.
    Look you are obviously not stupid and misunderstanding me, so you must be being deliberately pedantic, and I dont see why you'd bother.

    Yes I said "no one in London has ever heard of Alex Salmond", and seeing as I live in London and have heard of him, you must know that I wasnt trying to say it was a fact" NO ONE IN LONDON HAS HEARD OF ALEX SALMOND" and that I meant "not many people have heard of him" (shudder as as I forsee a debate on how many is not many approaching). I dont see why youd bother "correcting" it, when it is obviously a figure of speech, and you must have known that.


    I even admitted I only said it to wind up MalcolmG!

    and still you went on!

    Jesus...

    Although I must admit I was wrong that you only act like Mr Logic towards me, as you are doing it now over whether Germany is in Central Europe or not with...

    two other UKIP supporters...



    The penny has dropped.




    Yes, I am oppressing you. You are a victim :-)

    I thought you lived in Hornchurch.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754
    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    People often forget about Russia being in Europe.

    On another site, a few years ago, when the topic of discussion of who was the UK's most natural ally in Europe I replied

    "The Russians, we're the bookends of Europe that keep the Germans in their place"
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,602

    kle4 said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    Germany is central european, surely?

    Geographically, perhaps, but not politically. It has always been considered part of Western Europe - though maybe you could make a case for the old East Germany, I suppose. I specifically chose the term central and eastern European because I have never heard UKIP or Farage talk about immigraiton from western Europe in the same terms as they talk about immigration from the newer EU member states.

    No, it was always considered part of central Europe up until WW2. After that of course central Europe became rather a lost term as we referred to Eastern and Western Europe divided by the Iron Curtain. Even then, with Germany being split between the two it was considered the archetype central European country.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe

    Alternatively ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

    !!!!!

    If you look at your own link SO it makes it clear that it is referring to western Europe in cold war terms. at which time 'central Europe did not really exist. Now that the Iron Curtain is gone we have reverted to the pre war definitions of west, central and eastern europe.

    The link says that the UN defines Germany as a western European country. But this is not something to get bogged down in. For the purposes of the EU, I'd argue that Germany is seen as one of its western European founder members, while the central and eastern states are seen more as those which have joined since the collapse of the Iron Curtain.

    My main point was that you tend to hear a lot less hostility with regards to immigration from countries of the old EU/EEC from UKIP than you do with regards to immigration from the newer member states. My guess is that this is because if you exclude the new member states, the balance between UK EU incomers and out-goers is about even. That is logical, but what Czechs, Poles and the rest may hear is hostility. Just as many English people hear hostility when they listen to people from the SNP, even if none is meant.

    No I would guess it is more because the Western and central European countries were already members before UKIP existed and the reason UKIP are seen as objecting to eastern European immigration is because they are the countries that have joined most recently.

    By the way if you go to Lincolnshire you will hear far more complaints about Portuguese migration than Polish
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    kle4 said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    Germany is central european, surely?

    Geographically, perhaps, but not politically. It has always been considered part of Western Europe - though maybe you could make a case for the old East Germany, I suppose. I specifically chose the term central and eastern European because I have never heard UKIP or Farage talk about immigraiton from western Europe in the same terms as they talk about immigration from the newer EU member states.

    No, it was always considered part of central Europe up until WW2. After that of course central Europe became rather a lost term as we referred to Eastern and Western Europe divided by the Iron Curtain. Even then, with Germany being split between the two it was considered the archetype central European country.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe

    Alternatively ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

    !!!!!

    If you look at your own link SO it makes it clear that it is referring to western Europe in cold war terms. at which time 'central Europe did not really exist. Now that the Iron Curtain is gone we have reverted to the pre war definitions of west, central and eastern europe.

    The link says that the UN defines Germany as a western European country. But this is not something to get bogged down in. For the purposes of the EU, I'd argue that Germany is seen as one of its western European founder members, while the central and eastern states are seen more as those which have joined since the collapse of the Iron Curtain.

    My main point was that you tend to hear a lot less hostility with regards to immigration from countries of the old EU/EEC from UKIP than you do with regards to immigration from the newer member states. My guess is that this is because if you exclude the new member states, the balance between UK EU incomers and out-goers is about even. That is logical, but what Czechs, Poles and the rest may hear is hostility. Just as many English people hear hostility when they listen to people from the SNP, even if none is meant.

    I don't think it's because of the net flow. I think it's because the gross flow happened at a much slower pace over a much longer time period, and because immigrants from France and Germany tend to have been much higher skilled. This combination of factors has meant the integration has happened better.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Mick_Pork said:

    tim said:

    @IsabelOakeshott: Tory MPs now calling for swivel eye culprit's head. Real anger out there. Gone by lunchtime??

    Country suppertime surely

    It's not proper fop incompetence till a clearly chastened Nadine has weighed in.
    Nadine Dorries MP ‏@NadineDorriesMP 2h

    Sad that Times and Telegraph choose not to name aide. Indicates that Journalists WAY too close to No 10 operation. #oldboynetwork

    Nadine Dorries MP Nadine Dorries MP ‏@NadineDorriesMP 3h

    In Mid Bedfordshire, membership numbers increasing, activist are hard working, solid, decent, people AND truly representative of electorate

    Nadine Dorries MP Nadine Dorries MP ‏@NadineDorriesMP 3h

    If MP described activists as mad swivel eyed loons' they would be all over the Media. Why don't we know the name of No10 aide? #chummocracy
    I can't see this master strategy of silence from number 10 lasting that much longer.
    In fact it doesn't seem to have occurred to the fops that there is the danger of escalation.
    Tim Montgomerie ‏@TimMontgomerie 22m

    That the Cameroons think Tory members are loons is no surprise. I remember two senior Number 10 aides talking in exactly those terms.
    We could be looking at a full scale twit witch-hunt in the chumocracy. The horror! ;)


    You must have gone through the twits twitters with a fine toothed comb, Mick. However cammo like to keep his chums close to him as long as possible. The culprit may have to be prised open. Just like limpets, as I described them in an eariler thread.

  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited May 2013

    sam said:

    sam said:

    @Sam

    "As I said, no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond or gives a stroke about Scottish Independence"

    Come off it.

    800,000 Scots born in Scotland live in other parts of the UK. It would be fair to say that at least a few of them live in London. On top of which, there are quite a few Londoners that follow political developments and given the amount of coverage Salmond personally gets in the English media - see yesterday's conflab with Farage, for example - I'd say it is impossible to make a believable case for him being unknown.

    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Look I know you are a kind of human tipp ex for any post that I make (not anyones elses though) but you must realise I was making a general point, and slightly trying to wind up MalcolmG, who obviously knew thats what I was doing.

    Stop with the constant hair splitting, you are reminding me of Mr Logic in Viz

    I still say most English people in London wouldnt recognise Alex Salmond if he walked into the pub, I have no evidence to back this up, feel free to disagree.

    Ive got lots of mates whove never heard of him if we are swapping pointless anecdotes.

    Lots of my mates have never heard of him = no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond

    Great stuff.

    As I have said before, you do have a habit of overstating things.
    Look you are obviously not stupid and misunderstanding me, so you must be being deliberately pedantic, and I dont see why you'd bother.

    Yes I said "no one in London has ever heard of Alex Salmond", and seeing as I live in London and have heard of him, you must know that I wasnt trying to say it was a fact" NO ONE IN LONDON HAS HEARD OF ALEX SALMOND" and that I meant "not many people have heard of him" (shudder as as I forsee a debate on how many is not many approaching). I dont see why youd bother "correcting" it, when it is obviously a figure of speech, and you must have known that.


    I even admitted I only said it to wind up MalcolmG!

    and still you went on!

    Jesus...

    Although I must admit I was wrong that you only act like Mr Logic towards me, as you are doing it now over whether Germany is in Central Europe or not with...

    two other UKIP supporters...



    The penny has dropped.




    Yes, I am oppressing you. You are a victim :-)

    I thought you lived in Hornchurch.

    I was just sitting here thinking "He's going to say I dont live in London next..."

    BINGO!!!

    I live in Upminster

    It is in a London Borough, it is on the tube, I get a vote on the London Mayoralty, you can use an oyster card, the buses are red etc etc

    It doesnt have London postcode or an 020 number

    I cant take anymore nitpicking!
    I give up!
    Mass immigration is great!
    Tower Hamlets has an even distribution of ethnicities!
    The white British left Dagenham because they were loaded in a recession!
    Germany is not in Central Europe!
    I'll vote Labour again!
    2+2=5!
    2+2=5!

    'Do it to Julia! Do it to Julia! Not me! Julia!


  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950
    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    I would go for that place in Lithuania - halfway between Portugal and the Urals (as already mentioned), but also halfway between Greece and the northern-most part of of Norway.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950
    MikeK said:

    Assuming Europe extends from the Atlantic to the Urals, the centre of Europe must be halfway between Lisbon and Yekaterinburg in Russia?

    IIRC the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires were not known as the Central Powers for nothing.

    That's true to a certain extent.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    You said she was a Czech!

    She is - my business partner's wife is from Moravia. She may be wrong, but when she hears Farage speak she hears hostility towards her and people like her. Just as many English people hear hostility from Salmond and other SNP spokespeople.

    This is because we live in an age where people are told repeatedly by the centre-left establishment that people opposing immigration dislike immigrants. I don't think Nigel Farage has ever criticised immigrants themselves, but I regularly see him described as "anti-immigrant" by journalists and establishment politicians. Its amazing how many people think he is xenophobic, which is somewhat bizarre as he's married to a German.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    Socrates said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    You said she was a Czech!

    She is - my business partner's wife is from Moravia. She may be wrong, but when she hears Farage speak she hears hostility towards her and people like her. Just as many English people hear hostility from Salmond and other SNP spokespeople.

    This is because we live in an age where people are told repeatedly by the centre-left establishment that people opposing immigration dislike immigrants. I don't think Nigel Farage has ever criticised immigrants themselves, but I regularly see him described as "anti-immigrant" by journalists and establishment politicians. Its amazing how many people think he is xenophobic, which is somewhat bizarre as he's married to a German.
    They dont listen to what they dont want to hear

    Its the modern casual racism
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    sam said:

    sam said:

    sam said:

    @Sam

    "As I said, no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond or gives a stroke about Scottish Independence"

    Come off it.

    800,000 Scots born in Scotland live in other parts of the UK. It would be fair to say that at least a few of them live in London. On top of which, there are quite a few Londoners that follow political developments and given the amount of coverage Salmond personally gets in the English media - see yesterday's conflab with Farage, for example - I'd say it is impossible to make a believable case for him being unknown.

    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Look I know you are a kind of human tipp ex for any post that I make (not anyones elses though) but you must realise I was making a general point, and slightly trying to wind up MalcolmG, who obviously knew thats what I was doing.

    Stop with the constant hair splitting, you are reminding me of Mr Logic in Viz

    I still say most English people in London wouldnt recognise Alex Salmond if he walked into the pub, I have no evidence to back this up, feel free to disagree.

    Ive got lots of mates whove never heard of him if we are swapping pointless anecdotes.

    Lots of my mates have never heard of him = no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond

    Great stuff.

    As I have said before, you do have a habit of overstating things.
    Look you are obviously not stupid and misunderstanding me, so you must be being deliberately pedantic, and I dont see why you'd bother.

    Yes I said "no one in London has ever heard of Alex Salmond", and seeing as I live in London and have heard of him, you must know that I wasnt trying to say it was a fact" NO ONE IN LONDON HAS HEARD OF ALEX SALMOND" and that I meant "not many people have heard of him" (shudder as as I forsee a debate on how many is not many approaching). I dont see why youd bother "correcting" it, when it is obviously a figure of speech, and you must have known that.


    I even admitted I only said it to wind up MalcolmG!

    and still you went on!

    Jesus...

    Although I must admit I was wrong that you only act like Mr Logic towards me, as you are doing it now over whether Germany is in Central Europe or not with...

    two other UKIP supporters...



    The penny has dropped.




    Yes, I am oppressing you. You are a victim :-)

    I thought you lived in Hornchurch.

    I was just sitting here thinking "He's going to say I dont live in London next..."

    BINGO!!!

    I live in Upminster

    It is in a London Borough, it is on the tube, I get a vote on the London Mayoralty, you can use an oyster card, the buses are red etc etc

    It doesnt have London postcode or and 020 number

    I cant take anymore nitpicking!
    I give up!
    Mass immigration is great!
    Tower Hamlets has an even distribution of ethnicities!
    The white British left Dagenham because they were loaded in a recession!
    Germany is not in Central Europe!
    I'll vote Labour again!
    2+2=5!
    2+2=5!

    'Do it to Julia! Do it to Julia! Not me! Julia!


    You are just so oppressed. Poor you.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @Richard_Tyndall

    I've also heard criticism of Greek immigration in London, despite Greece being one of the older member states. They tend to be lower skilled also.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    Assuming Europe extends from the Atlantic to the Urals, the centre of Europe must be halfway between Lisbon and Yekaterinburg in Russia?

    IIRC the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires were not known as the Central Powers for nothing.

    That's true to a certain extent.
    No, Sunnil, The Central Powers was their designation. Centered between France and Russia.
    This was before versailles and all those independent states arose, mucking up the map of Europe.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    Socrates said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    You said she was a Czech!

    She is - my business partner's wife is from Moravia. She may be wrong, but when she hears Farage speak she hears hostility towards her and people like her. Just as many English people hear hostility from Salmond and other SNP spokespeople.

    This is because we live in an age where people are told repeatedly by the centre-left establishment that people opposing immigration dislike immigrants. I don't think Nigel Farage has ever criticised immigrants themselves, but I regularly see him described as "anti-immigrant" by journalists and establishment politicians. Its amazing how many people think he is xenophobic, which is somewhat bizarre as he's married to a German.

    People hear what they hear. They hear Salmond and right or wrongly they make a judgement. They hear Farage and they do the same thing. What was it that David Cameron said about UKIP? Is he really a member of the centre-left establishment?

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950

    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    People often forget about Russia being in Europe.

    On another site, a few years ago, when the topic of discussion of who was the UK's most natural ally in Europe I replied

    "The Russians, we're the bookends of Europe that keep the Germans in their place"
    You'd be surprised how much Russian territory British troops operated in during the Civil War (aftermath of WW1, of course).
    Murmansk, Archangel in the far north, Novorossiysk, Krasnodar in the far south, as well as the current-day Caucasian nations, Turkmenistan, and along the Trans-Siberian Railway all the way in from Vladivostok as far as Omsk in Siberia. (I've also seen mentions of Brits in Yekaterinburg on Google but not too much info backing that up).
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    sam said:

    Socrates said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    You said she was a Czech!

    She is - my business partner's wife is from Moravia. She may be wrong, but when she hears Farage speak she hears hostility towards her and people like her. Just as many English people hear hostility from Salmond and other SNP spokespeople.

    This is because we live in an age where people are told repeatedly by the centre-left establishment that people opposing immigration dislike immigrants. I don't think Nigel Farage has ever criticised immigrants themselves, but I regularly see him described as "anti-immigrant" by journalists and establishment politicians. Its amazing how many people think he is xenophobic, which is somewhat bizarre as he's married to a German.
    They dont listen to what they dont want to hear

    Its the modern casual racism
    Some people just like to class others as racist. I have always outright said that I don't give a damn what colour people's skin is. Someone can have lots of melanin in their skin or epicanthic folds in their eyelids, but it doesn't make them any less British than anyone else. The only thing I care about is that people living permanently in the UK, regardless of their biological descent, integrate here and preserve this country's beliefs in liberal democratic values. For this I'm called a bigot.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited May 2013
    MikeK said:

    You must have gone through the twits twitters with a fine toothed comb, Mick.

    Hardly. There were few things more certain than Nadine throwing her oar in after her 'arrogant out of tosh posh boys' remarks about Cammie and chums. Those thinking she would behave and be quiet after her jungle expelling might be best described as "swivel-eyed loons". ;)


    Tim Montgomerie looks after conhome and despite the eccentric conspiracy theorists it is still for tory members so it's natural he'd have a view. He might even be able to lob a few hand grenades in himself by the looks of things.
    MikeK said:

    However cammo like to keep his chums close to him as long as possible. The culprit may have to be prised open. Just like limpets, as I described them in an eariler thread.

    Cammie's fondness for chums over competence is well established. Yet no matter how close that chum is I'm afraid that tory MPs will still have to face the wrath of their constituency associations. So the wisdom of letting this thing boil on is extremely questionable.
    They won't soon forget this nor will Cammie or Osbrowne be allowed to.



  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    You said she was a Czech!

    She is - my business partner's wife is from Moravia. She may be wrong, but when she hears Farage speak she hears hostility towards her and people like her. Just as many English people hear hostility from Salmond and other SNP spokespeople.

    This is because we live in an age where people are told repeatedly by the centre-left establishment that people opposing immigration dislike immigrants. I don't think Nigel Farage has ever criticised immigrants themselves, but I regularly see him described as "anti-immigrant" by journalists and establishment politicians. Its amazing how many people think he is xenophobic, which is somewhat bizarre as he's married to a German.

    People hear what they hear. They hear Salmond and right or wrongly they make a judgement. They hear Farage and they do the same thing. What was it that David Cameron said about UKIP? Is he really a member of the centre-left establishment?

    Alex Salmond has a policy of charging English people to study in Scotland and not-charging people of any other EU background. That's clearly singling out the English. UKIP don't want different treatment for different groups: they want to treat immigrants from Europe the same as immigrants not from Europe.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225

    On topic, if opposition to gay marriage is the key to winning the Tory leadership, then that is utterly depressing both as a Tory and a human being.

    I do not believe in such a thing as the tide of history, which imagines history and cultural development heading inexorably toward some ideal society rather than the rather more chaotic and back and forth development that actually occurs, but I think you should rest a little easier in that the current trend seems to be grinding away at such a proposition as you put being true for much longer. Take heart.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    Socrates said:

    @Richard_Tyndall

    I've also heard criticism of Greek immigration in London, despite Greece being one of the older member states. They tend to be lower skilled also.

    Greek or Cypriot? I grew up in Camden and there were a lot of the latter before they all moved further out to Palmers Green and similar places. There were a lot of fights with Turks in the mid-70s, I remember.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:


    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Actually Mrs Farage is a German.

    So not a central or eastern European then.

    You said she was a Czech!

    She is - my business partner's wife is from Moravia. She may be wrong, but when she hears Farage speak she hears hostility towards her and people like her. Just as many English people hear hostility from Salmond and other SNP spokespeople.

    This is because we live in an age where people are told repeatedly by the centre-left establishment that people opposing immigration dislike immigrants. I don't think Nigel Farage has ever criticised immigrants themselves, but I regularly see him described as "anti-immigrant" by journalists and establishment politicians. Its amazing how many people think he is xenophobic, which is somewhat bizarre as he's married to a German.

    People hear what they hear. They hear Salmond and right or wrongly they make a judgement. They hear Farage and they do the same thing. What was it that David Cameron said about UKIP? Is he really a member of the centre-left establishment?

    Alex Salmond has a policy of charging English people to study in Scotland and not-charging people of any other EU background. That's clearly singling out the English. UKIP don't want different treatment for different groups: they want to treat immigrants from Europe the same as immigrants not from Europe.

    If you explore the policies then you will obviously find differences. I am talking about the tone of voice. People hear the same thing very differently depending on their backgrounds, political dispositions and experiences.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    *chortle*
    UpikTips ‏@UpikTips 5m

    If you can't say anything these days without some PC liberal lefty student type crying 'racist', then don't say anything.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950
    The other thing to bear in mind with Eurovision is the apparent media narrative that we have always done crap in recent years. We haven't - we came 5th only four years ago.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PBykhFyy-ZE#t=0s
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,602

    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    People often forget about Russia being in Europe.

    On another site, a few years ago, when the topic of discussion of who was the UK's most natural ally in Europe I replied

    "The Russians, we're the bookends of Europe that keep the Germans in their place"
    You'd be surprised how much Russian territory British troops operated in during the Civil War (aftermath of WW1, of course).
    Murmansk, Archangel in the far north, Novorossiysk, Krasnodar in the far south, as well as the current-day Caucasian nations, Turkmenistan, and along the Trans-Siberian Railway all the way in from Vladivostok as far as Omsk in Siberia. (I've also seen mentions of Brits in Yekaterinburg on Google but not too much info backing that up).
    Ah, my pet topic. I am in the process of writing a book on the British interventions in Southern Russia and the Caucasus under Dunsterville and Malleson at the end of the First World War. There are some amazing boys own tales about the campaigns.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950

    sam said:

    sam said:

    sam said:

    @Sam

    "As I said, no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond or gives a stroke about Scottish Independence"

    Come off it.

    800,000 Scots born in Scotland live in other parts of the UK. It would be fair to say that at least a few of them live in London. On top of which, there are quite a few Londoners that follow political developments and given the amount of coverage Salmond personally gets in the English media - see yesterday's conflab with Farage, for example - I'd say it is impossible to make a believable case for him being unknown.

    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Look I know you are a kind of human tipp ex for any post that I make (not anyones elses though) but you must realise I was making a general point, and slightly trying to wind up MalcolmG, who obviously knew thats what I was doing.

    Stop with the constant hair splitting, you are reminding me of Mr Logic in Viz

    I still say most English people in London wouldnt recognise Alex Salmond if he walked into the pub, I have no evidence to back this up, feel free to disagree.

    Ive got lots of mates whove never heard of him if we are swapping pointless anecdotes.

    Lots of my mates have never heard of him = no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond

    Great stuff.

    As I have said before, you do have a habit of overstating things.
    Look you are obviously not stupid and misunderstanding me, so you must be being deliberately pedantic, and I dont see why you'd bother.

    Yes I said "no one in London has ever heard of Alex Salmond", and seeing as I live in London and have heard of him, you must know that I wasnt trying to say it was a fact" NO ONE IN LONDON HAS HEARD OF ALEX SALMOND" and that I meant "not many people have heard of him" (shudder as as I forsee a debate on how many is not many approaching). I dont see why youd bother "correcting" it, when it is obviously a figure of speech, and you must have known that.


    I even admitted I only said it to wind up MalcolmG!

    and still you went on!

    Jesus...

    Although I must admit I was wrong that you only act like Mr Logic towards me, as you are doing it now over whether Germany is in Central Europe or not with...

    two other UKIP supporters...



    The penny has dropped.




    Yes, I am oppressing you. You are a victim :-)

    I thought you lived in Hornchurch.

    I was just sitting here thinking "He's going to say I dont live in London next..."

    BINGO!!!

    I live in Upminster

    It is in a London Borough, it is on the tube, I get a vote on the London Mayoralty, you can use an oyster card, the buses are red etc etc

    It doesnt have London postcode or and 020 number

    I cant take anymore nitpicking!
    I give up!
    Mass immigration is great!
    Tower Hamlets has an even distribution of ethnicities!
    The white British left Dagenham because they were loaded in a recession!
    Germany is not in Central Europe!
    I'll vote Labour again!
    2+2=5!
    2+2=5!

    'Do it to Julia! Do it to Julia! Not me! Julia!


    You are just so oppressed. Poor you.

    Upminster? What a dump!

    :)
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited May 2013

    Socrates said:

    @Richard_Tyndall

    I've also heard criticism of Greek immigration in London, despite Greece being one of the older member states. They tend to be lower skilled also.

    Greek or Cypriot? I grew up in Camden and there were a lot of the latter before they all moved further out to Palmers Green and similar places. There were a lot of fights with Turks in the mid-70s, I remember.

    "before they all moved further out to Palmers Green"

    Gross exaggeration

    Every single one moved?

    Arent you making a generalisation about these people?

    Will you stop digging me out for these minor oversights now you are plainly doing it as well PLEASE???!!!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950

    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    People often forget about Russia being in Europe.

    On another site, a few years ago, when the topic of discussion of who was the UK's most natural ally in Europe I replied

    "The Russians, we're the bookends of Europe that keep the Germans in their place"
    You'd be surprised how much Russian territory British troops operated in during the Civil War (aftermath of WW1, of course).
    Murmansk, Archangel in the far north, Novorossiysk, Krasnodar in the far south, as well as the current-day Caucasian nations, Turkmenistan, and along the Trans-Siberian Railway all the way in from Vladivostok as far as Omsk in Siberia. (I've also seen mentions of Brits in Yekaterinburg on Google but not too much info backing that up).
    Ah, my pet topic. I am in the process of writing a book on the British interventions in Southern Russia and the Caucasus under Dunsterville and Malleson at the end of the First World War. There are some amazing boys own tales about the campaigns.
    Really? Wow, that's great! I've basically been trawling through Wiki and Google for little snippets of information. As some of you are aware I've been collating a "little" Excel file of former British administered/occupied territories with areas and current population levels. But anyway, can't believe the Communists in Baku actually preferred to evacuate the city in favour of Dunsterforce in preference to the advancing Turks in 1918!
  • samsam Posts: 727
    Mick_Pork said:

    *chortle*

    UpikTips ‏@UpikTips 5m

    If you can't say anything these days without some PC liberal lefty student type crying 'racist', then don't say anything.
    Attempt to be funny by combining recycled Viz jokes from two decades ago with an out of touch Guardian reader viewpoint

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    People often forget about Russia being in Europe.

    On another site, a few years ago, when the topic of discussion of who was the UK's most natural ally in Europe I replied

    "The Russians, we're the bookends of Europe that keep the Germans in their place"
    You'd be surprised how much Russian territory British troops operated in during the Civil War (aftermath of WW1, of course).
    Murmansk, Archangel in the far north, Novorossiysk, Krasnodar in the far south, as well as the current-day Caucasian nations, Turkmenistan, and along the Trans-Siberian Railway all the way in from Vladivostok as far as Omsk in Siberia. (I've also seen mentions of Brits in Yekaterinburg on Google but not too much info backing that up).
    Ah, my pet topic. I am in the process of writing a book on the British interventions in Southern Russia and the Caucasus under Dunsterville and Malleson at the end of the First World War. There are some amazing boys own tales about the campaigns.
    My fathers eldest brother fought on the side of the Reds, while a cousin fought for the whites in the civil wars. Both disappeared and were never heard from again. Before that though, fleeing the revolution with his family, my father found himself at age 14, working for the Germam Army hospital in Warsaw in 1918.

  • samsam Posts: 727

    sam said:

    sam said:

    sam said:

    @Sam

    "As I said, no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond or gives a stroke about Scottish Independence"

    Come off it.

    800,000 Scots born in Scotland live in other parts of the UK. It would be fair to say that at least a few of them live in London. On top of which, there are quite a few Londoners that follow political developments and given the amount of coverage Salmond personally gets in the English media - see yesterday's conflab with Farage, for example - I'd say it is impossible to make a believable case for him being unknown.

    One of my business partners is a Northern Ireland protestant. He lives in London and dislikes Salmond intensely. He also dislikes Farage intensely because he has a Czech wife and, rightly or wrongly, believes UKIP to be distinctly hostile to central and eastern Europeans.

    Look I know you are a kind of human tipp ex for any post that I make (not anyones elses though) but you must realise I was making a general point, and slightly trying to wind up MalcolmG, who obviously knew thats what I was doing.

    Stop with the constant hair splitting, you are reminding me of Mr Logic in Viz

    I still say most English people in London wouldnt recognise Alex Salmond if he walked into the pub, I have no evidence to back this up, feel free to disagree.

    Ive got lots of mates whove never heard of him if we are swapping pointless anecdotes.

    Lots of my mates have never heard of him = no one in London has heard of Alex Salmond

    Great stuff.

    As I have said before, you do have a habit of overstating things.
    Look you are obviously not stupid and misunderstanding me, so you must be being deliberately pedantic, and I dont see why you'd bother.

    Yes I said "no one in London has ever heard of Alex Salmond", and seeing as I live in London and have heard of him, you must know that I wasnt trying to say it was a fact" NO ONE IN LONDON HAS HEARD OF ALEX SALMOND" and that I meant "not many people have heard of him" (shudder as as I forsee a debate on how many is not many approaching). I dont see why youd bother "correcting" it, when it is obviously a figure of speech, and you must have known that.


    I even admitted I only said it to wind up MalcolmG!

    and still you went on!

    Jesus...

    Although I must admit I was wrong that you only act like Mr Logic towards me, as you are doing it now over whether Germany is in Central Europe or not with...

    two other UKIP supporters...



    The penny has dropped.




    Yes, I am oppressing you. You are a victim :-)

    I thought you lived in Hornchurch.

    I was just sitting here thinking "He's going to say I dont live in London next..."

    BINGO!!!

    I live in Upminster

    It is in a London Borough, it is on the tube, I get a vote on the London Mayoralty, you can use an oyster card, the buses are red etc etc

    It doesnt have London postcode or and 020 number

    I cant take anymore nitpicking!
    I give up!
    Mass immigration is great!
    Tower Hamlets has an even distribution of ethnicities!
    The white British left Dagenham because they were loaded in a recession!
    Germany is not in Central Europe!
    I'll vote Labour again!
    2+2=5!
    2+2=5!

    'Do it to Julia! Do it to Julia! Not me! Julia!


    You are just so oppressed. Poor you.

    Upminster? What a dump!

    :)
    Tell me about it! Rescue me from this East London Ghetto!
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    People often forget about Russia being in Europe.

    On another site, a few years ago, when the topic of discussion of who was the UK's most natural ally in Europe I replied

    "The Russians, we're the bookends of Europe that keep the Germans in their place"
    You'd be surprised how much Russian territory British troops operated in during the Civil War (aftermath of WW1, of course).
    Murmansk, Archangel in the far north, Novorossiysk, Krasnodar in the far south, as well as the current-day Caucasian nations, Turkmenistan, and along the Trans-Siberian Railway all the way in from Vladivostok as far as Omsk in Siberia. (I've also seen mentions of Brits in Yekaterinburg on Google but not too much info backing that up).
    Ah, my pet topic. I am in the process of writing a book on the British interventions in Southern Russia and the Caucasus under Dunsterville and Malleson at the end of the First World War. There are some amazing boys own tales about the campaigns.
    As for The Baltic...

    http://www.naval-history.net/WW1AreaBaltic1919.htm
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950
    dr_spyn said:

    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    People often forget about Russia being in Europe.

    On another site, a few years ago, when the topic of discussion of who was the UK's most natural ally in Europe I replied

    "The Russians, we're the bookends of Europe that keep the Germans in their place"
    You'd be surprised how much Russian territory British troops operated in during the Civil War (aftermath of WW1, of course).
    Murmansk, Archangel in the far north, Novorossiysk, Krasnodar in the far south, as well as the current-day Caucasian nations, Turkmenistan, and along the Trans-Siberian Railway all the way in from Vladivostok as far as Omsk in Siberia. (I've also seen mentions of Brits in Yekaterinburg on Google but not too much info backing that up).
    Ah, my pet topic. I am in the process of writing a book on the British interventions in Southern Russia and the Caucasus under Dunsterville and Malleson at the end of the First World War. There are some amazing boys own tales about the campaigns.
    As for The Baltic...

    http://www.naval-history.net/WW1AreaBaltic1919.htm
    On land, I think at least 6 British tanks and their crews took part in the Estonian/White offensive on St Petersburg in 1919, reaching as far as the outer suburbs before having to turn back.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,602
    edited May 2013

    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    People often forget about Russia being in Europe.

    On another site, a few years ago, when the topic of discussion of who was the UK's most natural ally in Europe I replied

    "The Russians, we're the bookends of Europe that keep the Germans in their place"
    You'd be surprised how much Russian territory British troops operated in during the Civil War (aftermath of WW1, of course).
    Murmansk, Archangel in the far north, Novorossiysk, Krasnodar in the far south, as well as the current-day Caucasian nations, Turkmenistan, and along the Trans-Siberian Railway all the way in from Vladivostok as far as Omsk in Siberia. (I've also seen mentions of Brits in Yekaterinburg on Google but not too much info backing that up).
    Ah, my pet topic. I am in the process of writing a book on the British interventions in Southern Russia and the Caucasus under Dunsterville and Malleson at the end of the First World War. There are some amazing boys own tales about the campaigns.
    Really? Wow, that's great! I've basically been trawling through Wiki and Google for little snippets of information. As some of you are aware I've been collating a "little" Excel file of former British administered/occupied territories with areas and current population levels. But anyway, can't believe the Communists in Baku actually preferred to evacuate the city in favour of Dunsterforce in preference to the advancing Turks in 1918!
    I have access to a huge amount of original source material from the Liddle collection at the Brotherton Library in Leeds. Also the Indian Office papers at the British Library. Any information you want just let me know.

    What you need to remember about the Baku situation is that the communists had already been involved in massacres of Turkish community in Baku earlier in 1918. With the Turks approaching the Russian forces in Enzeli needed the support of the British to stop them taking the city and they knew that if Baku did fall there would be a reciprocal massacre. So they were willing to allow the British in to support them. The British were also fighting in support of the Transcaspian government against the Red forces on the other side of the Caspian on the South Central Asian Railway so it was an extremely confused picture. But to a large extent the communists had already abandoned Baku and Armenia before the British got there. Indeed some British armoured cars from Baku ended up fighting with Caucasian forces against the Red Russians further north in Dagestan.

    Even the Axis side was not straight forward. Although the Turks wanted to take Baku for the oil supplies and as part of their plan for a Pan-Turanian empire to threaten Afghanistan and India, the Germans were also very interested in taking control of the Caspian oil and so had sent several thousand of their troops as part of a German Caucasian Legion to support the newly independent state of Georgia against their nominal allies the Turks. The two Axis armies even got into a proper battle with each other to the south of Tiblisi as the Germans tried to prevent the Turks breaking trough to Baku.

    It is an extremely fascinating and complicated story.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited May 2013
    sam said:



    Mick_Pork said:

    *chortle*

    UpikTips ‏@UpikTips 5m

    If you can't say anything these days without some PC liberal lefty student type crying 'racist', then don't say anything.
    Attempt to be funny by combining recycled Viz jokes from two decades ago with an out of touch Guardian reader viewpoint

    I was never under the illusion that kippers would find it funny but thanks all the same.
    You certainly proved that satirical quip wrong with your out of touch Guardian reader viewpoint remark. The author would feel quite the fool to know you have them bang to rights with their PC liberal lefty type comedy. ;)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,602
    dr_spyn said:

    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    People often forget about Russia being in Europe.

    On another site, a few years ago, when the topic of discussion of who was the UK's most natural ally in Europe I replied

    "The Russians, we're the bookends of Europe that keep the Germans in their place"
    You'd be surprised how much Russian territory British troops operated in during the Civil War (aftermath of WW1, of course).
    Murmansk, Archangel in the far north, Novorossiysk, Krasnodar in the far south, as well as the current-day Caucasian nations, Turkmenistan, and along the Trans-Siberian Railway all the way in from Vladivostok as far as Omsk in Siberia. (I've also seen mentions of Brits in Yekaterinburg on Google but not too much info backing that up).
    Ah, my pet topic. I am in the process of writing a book on the British interventions in Southern Russia and the Caucasus under Dunsterville and Malleson at the end of the First World War. There are some amazing boys own tales about the campaigns.
    As for The Baltic...

    http://www.naval-history.net/WW1AreaBaltic1919.htm
    Even better look up the British Caspian Sea Navy. :-)
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    The best ever Eurovision song without question was sung by Mariza Koch of Greece in 1976. It was about the Turkish invasion of Cyprus. She had death threats before performing. It came 10th. The Brotherhood of Man won that year.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oYT4q7Olcs
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,602

    dr_spyn said:

    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    People often forget about Russia being in Europe.

    On another site, a few years ago, when the topic of discussion of who was the UK's most natural ally in Europe I replied

    "The Russians, we're the bookends of Europe that keep the Germans in their place"
    You'd be surprised how much Russian territory British troops operated in during the Civil War (aftermath of WW1, of course).
    Murmansk, Archangel in the far north, Novorossiysk, Krasnodar in the far south, as well as the current-day Caucasian nations, Turkmenistan, and along the Trans-Siberian Railway all the way in from Vladivostok as far as Omsk in Siberia. (I've also seen mentions of Brits in Yekaterinburg on Google but not too much info backing that up).
    Ah, my pet topic. I am in the process of writing a book on the British interventions in Southern Russia and the Caucasus under Dunsterville and Malleson at the end of the First World War. There are some amazing boys own tales about the campaigns.
    As for The Baltic...

    http://www.naval-history.net/WW1AreaBaltic1919.htm
    Even better look up the British Caspian Sea Navy. :-)
    http://www.gwpda.org/naval/caspian.htm
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,832

    What was it that David Cameron said about UKIP? Is he really a member of the centre-left establishment?

    If you subscribe to the Thatcherite view of post-war British politics then the answer is probably yes.
  • InMyHumOpInMyHumOp Posts: 16
    sam said:


    Socrates said:

    @Richard_Tyndall

    I've also heard criticism of Greek immigration in London, despite Greece being one of the older member states. They tend to be lower skilled also.

    Greek or Cypriot? I grew up in Camden and there were a lot of the latter before they all moved further out to Palmers Green and similar places. There were a lot of fights with Turks in the mid-70s, I remember.

    "before they all moved further out to Palmers Green"

    Gross exaggeration

    Every single one moved?

    Arent you making a generalisation about these people?

    Will you stop digging me out for these minor oversights now you are plainly doing it as well PLEASE???!!!
    Interesting the way that Socrates on the right and SouthamObserver on the left attack Greek and Cypriot immigrants respectively. Shows that racism happily thrives across the political spectrum and normally is acccompanied by double standards as well.

  • samsam Posts: 727
    Mick_Pork said:

    sam said:



    Mick_Pork said:

    *chortle*

    UpikTips ‏@UpikTips 5m

    If you can't say anything these days without some PC liberal lefty student type crying 'racist', then don't say anything.
    Attempt to be funny by combining recycled Viz jokes from two decades ago with an out of touch Guardian reader viewpoint
    I was never under the illusion that kippers would find it funny but thanks all the same.
    You certainly proved that satirical quip wrong with your out of touch Guardian reader viewpoint remark. The author would feel quite the fool to know you have them bang to rights with their PC liberal lefty type comedy. ;)

    Actually, I tweeted that to the author and he followed me for a week... sinister leftys

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950

    antifrank said:

    The main point about the geographical centre of Europe is that wherever it is, it's a lot further east than most people imagine. Russia is big.

    People often forget about Russia being in Europe.

    On another site, a few years ago, when the topic of discussion of who was the UK's most natural ally in Europe I replied

    "The Russians, we're the bookends of Europe that keep the Germans in their place"
    You'd be surprised how much Russian territory British troops operated in during the Civil War (aftermath of WW1, of course).
    Murmansk, Archangel in the far north, Novorossiysk, Krasnodar in the far south, as well as the current-day Caucasian nations, Turkmenistan, and along the Trans-Siberian Railway all the way in from Vladivostok as far as Omsk in Siberia. (I've also seen mentions of Brits in Yekaterinburg on Google but not too much info backing that up).
    Ah, my pet topic. I am in the process of writing a book on the British interventions in Southern Russia and the Caucasus under Dunsterville and Malleson at the end of the First World War. There are some amazing boys own tales about the campaigns.
    Really? Wow, that's great! I've basically been trawling through Wiki and Google for little snippets of information. As some of you are aware I've been collating a "little" Excel file of former British administered/occupied territories with areas and current population levels. But anyway, can't believe the Communists in Baku actually preferred to evacuate the city in favour of Dunsterforce in preference to the advancing Turks in 1918!
    I have access to a huge amount of original source material from the Liddle collection at the Brotherton Library in Leeds. Also the Indian Office papers at the British Library. Any information you want just let me know.

    What you need to remember about the Baku situation is that the communists had already been involved in massacres of Turkish community in Baku earlier in 1918. With the Turks approaching the Russian forces in Enzeli needed the support of the British to stop them taking the city and they knew that if Baku did fall there would be a reciprocal massacre. So they were willing to allow the British in to support them. The British were also fighting in support of the Transcaspian government against the Red forces on the other side of the Caspian on the South Central Asian Railway so it was an extremely confused picture. But to a large extent the communists had already abandoned Baku and Armenia before the British got there. Indeed some British armoured cars from Baku ended up fighting with Caucasian forces against the Red Russians further north in Dagestan.

    Even the Axis side was not straight forward. Although the Turks wanted to take Baku for the oil supplies and as part of their plan for a Pan-Turanian empire to threaten Afghanistan and India, the Germans were also very interested in taking control of the Caspian oil and so had sent several thousand of their troops as part of a German Caucasian Legion to support the newly independent state of Georgia against their nominal allies the Turks. The two Axis armies even got into a proper battle with each other to the south of Tiblisi as the Germans tried to prevent the Turks breaking trough to Baku.

    It is an extremely fascinating and complicated story.
    Yes indeed! But I forgot to add Dagestan to my list! So there was a proper British boots-on-the ground presence there?

    [Opens up Excel]
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    So how many openly craves after Dave's job ? Boris, May, Gove, Hammond.

    I take it Osborne has ruled himself out.

    Any others
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited May 2013
    tim said:

    @IsabelOakeshott: No10 has gone very quiet re. loons. From experience this sort of silence usually pre-empts a resignation. But I may be wrong...

    Big, big, big mistake this keeping quiet master strategy.

    Don't think it can get any worse? Oh yes it can.
    Owen Jones ‏@OwenJones84

    Old in-depth interview with Andrew Feldman - in which Cameron himself is alleged to call EU critics “swivel-eyed” http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/2e79710a-6e31-11e1-baa5-00144feab49a.html#axzz2TdHhaKcC

    "In office, Cameron has been defined by issues he barely mentioned in 2005, when he set out his plan to “decontaminate” the Tory party’s tarnished image: no wonder commentators and some in his party are confused. He has introduced a major health reorganisation (which he promised not to do), fought a battle with European partners in Brussels (he tells colleagues that anyone who wants to talk to him about the EU is “swivel-eyed”) and embarked on the largest round of cuts in a generation, in spite of a pre-crash vow to match Labour’s spending plans"

    So for those keeping track of the Cameroons, UKIP are fruitcakes loonies and closet racists - conservative activists are mad swivel-eyed loons - while those want to talk about Europe are also swivel-eyed.

    You can clearly see why some PB tories get so upset when I call Cameron Cammie and Osborne Osbrowne.


    LOL
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    surbiton said:

    So how many openly craves after Dave's job ? Boris, May, Gove, Hammond.

    I take it Osborne has ruled himself out.

    Any others

    I don't think May craves it. She might be pushed though so on the list for that reason.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    MrJones said:

    surbiton said:

    So how many openly craves after Dave's job ? Boris, May, Gove, Hammond.

    I take it Osborne has ruled himself out.

    Any others

    I don't think May craves it. She might be pushed though so on the list for that reason.
    Heck ! She even went on a diet for the job.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,541
    edited May 2013
    Thanks for the interesting historical notes to Richard T and others - like Mike K I have family interests but there's a lot in those posts that I didn't know.

    Accidentally misclicking, I came across this ancient pb item - we're quite prescient sometimes, aren't we?

    http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2006/07/
This discussion has been closed.