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  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited July 2014
    @Tykejohnno
    That clears up whether UC has been signed off or not.....
    Oh, it doesn't, it is bluster and bullsh*t, in place of an answer.
    Dave stated it was signed off, the relevant department said it wasn't. who to believe?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    isam said:


    Make more low skilled jobs available by reducing the competition from overseas immigrants that have more incentive to do them

    This has exactly the same effect on the supply chain as removing competition for inefficient car parts makers by banning the import of cheaper car parts. Namely:
    1) Companies buying the car parts to make cars move overseas where they can buy cheaper, better parts.
    2) To the extent that they don't, the costs are paid by all the companies that use the cars, costing jobs right across the whole economy.

    The one you should be particularly worrying about in the next 20 years is (1), because communications technology and better machinery will make it possible to move all kinds of jobs out of the country whenever the government is preventing the workers from moving to the jobs. And when you offshore a job because you banned the person who would have done it from coming, you take some of the few remaining non-mobile support jobs with you.

    The coherent thing to do here is to crack down on trade as well to prevent the domestic job from turning into an import, but this policy is very short of mainstream advocates in the UK.
    Your logic only holds for tradeable products. The issue with immigration is that it hurts every low income job. So you're right consumers across the country (i.e. all income levels) benefit from the improvement, but producers in low wage jobs (i.e. all low income levels) get the cost. The result is something that's usually known as "economically regressive".
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    BobaFett said:

    isam said:

    This seems perfectly obvious

    Make more low skilled jobs available by reducing the competition from overseas immigrants that have more incentive to do them

    Make the jobs more attractive by removing benefits from people who refuse to do them

    Protectionism at the low end of society is needed, it doesn't need to be a dirty word.

    This would also mean that the immigrants that do work here would be of a higher skilllset, have more money, and probably be more inclined to assimilate

    As usual, an overly simplistic prospectus. Would you remove benefits for a mum of three whose partner has abandoned her? In which case, would you take the children into care - as she would have no way of looking after them while being forced to work.

    Were this as simple as the reactionary right think it is, it would have been solved decades ago. Thankfully politicians of the sensible centre-left and centre-right realise it's a complex issue with few if any easy answers.
    If the jobs paid a decent wage, she could afford childcare for a couple hours after school. In addition, we could make childcare far cheaper by getting rid of the ridiculous ratio system. But when the Coalition tried to do that, Labour idiots threw a strop.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    So great that one of his first acts as Chancellor was to slash HMRC's budget, sacking lots of tax experts in the process, the outcome of which being that the government found itself with a massive revenue hole So you re-hire lots of new civil servants, train them up as tax experts and protect the HMRC budget. I suppose you could say he's done the right thing after exploring all the other possibilities.

    You made that all up, didn't you?
    No I didn't. A have a good contact there. HMRC's budget was slashed before being protected. Why do you think that is? I know someone who's benefiting very nicely from being one of the new experts they're training up having got rid of many of the old ones. Sadly our media aren't interested in reporting this government's many failures. How IDS survives in spite of the mess of UC is a mystery.

    Mr. Booth, full respect to you and your contacts, but I never knew a change in the public sector that wasn't rubbished by the people affected. Every change, every budget cut was always the end of civilisation as we know it. Take a large pinch of salt with all stories eminating from a department that has undergone change.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    Thoughtful piece from Prof Tomkins on what should happen in Scotland in the event of a no-vote:

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/independence-if-scotland-votes-no-what-next-1-3470698

    Unfortunately he goes off the rails at the end with his lies regarding the ambitious plans of the unionists parties for major devolution. They are only offering responsibilities , not powers. Kidding on the tax is decided and cutting the budget and leaving Scotland at the mercy of an arbitrary number is nothing great. They are retaining all powers that matter at Westminster.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Could be a big shake up in Le Tour today, very wet & windy and they are heading through cobbles. And they are already racing @ 130 km out, if Chris Froome survives today with no time gaps to his GC competitors, he wins.

    But it is a very dangerous day for him.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    I really do think the crisis in the NHS will only grow as an election issue.

    Blaming Andy Burnham or the decade old GP contract simply will not be an answer
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    Thoughtful piece from Prof Tomkins on what should happen in Scotland in the event of a no-vote:

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/independence-if-scotland-votes-no-what-next-1-3470698

    Unfortunately he goes off the rails at the end with his lies regarding the ambitious plans of the unionists parties for major devolution. They are only offering responsibilities , not powers. Kidding on the tax is decided and cutting the budget and leaving Scotland at the mercy of an arbitrary number is nothing great. They are retaining all powers that matter at Westminster.
    As a professed democrat, I'd have thought you'd welcome a national conversation on Barnett? Salmond keeps telling us how rich Scotland is, so perhaps money would be better spent elsewhere......

    Harman handling a sticky interview on R4 and her NCCL days well......

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    BobaFett said:

    isam said:

    This seems perfectly obvious

    Make more low skilled jobs available by reducing the competition from overseas immigrants that have more incentive to do them

    Make the jobs more attractive by removing benefits from people who refuse to do them

    Protectionism at the low end of society is needed, it doesn't need to be a dirty word.

    This would also mean that the immigrants that do work here would be of a higher skilllset, have more money, and probably be more inclined to assimilate

    As usual, an overly simplistic prospectus. Would you remove benefits for a mum of three whose partner has abandoned her? In which case, would you take the children into care - as she would have no way of looking after them while being forced to work.

    Were this as simple as the reactionary right think it is, it would have been solved decades ago. Thankfully politicians of the sensible centre-left and centre-right realise it's a complex issue with few if any easy answers.
    If she was looking for a job but knocking back ones she was capable of doing id take her JSA away yes

    It is you who is being predictable by refusing to contemplate taking any action to take people off benefits and producing an extreme sympathy case as if it were the norm
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    3 - 3 Miliband/Cameron @ PMQs (Sun) - not bad for Miliband going into the recess tbh.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:


    Make more low skilled jobs available by reducing the competition from overseas immigrants that have more incentive to do them

    This has exactly the same effect on the supply chain as removing competition for inefficient car parts makers by banning the import of cheaper car parts. Namely:
    1) Companies buying the car parts to make cars move overseas where they can buy cheaper, better parts.
    2) To the extent that they don't, the costs are paid by all the companies that use the cars, costing jobs right across the whole economy.

    The one you should be particularly worrying about in the next 20 years is (1), because communications technology and better machinery will make it possible to move all kinds of jobs out of the country whenever the government is preventing the workers from moving to the jobs. And when you offshore a job because you banned the person who would have done it from coming, you take some of the few remaining non-mobile support jobs with you.

    The coherent thing to do here is to crack down on trade as well to prevent the domestic job from turning into an import, but this policy is very short of mainstream advocates in the UK.
    No it isn't. I'm talking about unskilled minimum wage jobs that anyone can do.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376

    Ed Miliband has one more PMQ's before the Conference season. One more chance to light up the glum faces on the benches behind him...

    Doesn't Parliament usually sit for a couple of weeks at the start of September, then breaks again for Conference season?

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    @BobaFett

    "Thankfully politicians of the sensible centre-left and centre-right realise it's a complex issue with few if any easy answers"

    Crikey, Mr. Fett, the old irony meter spiked when I read that, given that a short while ago you had posted:

    "The only clean way of doing this is to have some sort of citizen's payment, which is universal. Everyone from your archetypal layabout to your Mayfair billionaire (some of these are the same people!) would get it, unconditionally"

    That's the way to stop benefit culture? Give them to everyone?!!

    Ridiculous
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited July 2014
    Charles said:

    How do you make the numbers stack up - even accepting that £5K is not a particularly generous level of basic income.

    Well you can do it one bit at a time. The personal allowance on income tax is worth nearly £3000 per person in work, which is about £60 a week, or getting close to the level of JSA. So, abolish the personal allowance, abolish JSA, and pay a citizen's income at the same rate as JSA to all citizens of working age.

    The next thing you could do is to abolish the horrendously complicated tax credits system, that gives people on low incomes marginal tax rates of ~85%, and fold that into the citizen's income.

    It makes it easier for people from poorer backgrounds to take risks in terms of setting up businesses, in the same way as it is for middle-class people who have savings and wealthier family to fall back on.

    It improves incentives to work and it removes a vast amount of bureaucracy.

    The cost of housing is a problem in terms of making this work, but it's a big problem for the country in other ways so you have to fix that anyway. Paying vast amounts of housing benefit is no solution.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Polling Observatory:
    Our estimates for July 1 put Labour at 34.6 per cent … Conservative support is stable at 30.8 per cent … UKIP 14.8 per cent … Liberal Democrats 8.8 per cent

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/pollingobservatory/100279233/ignore-the-juncker-bounce-and-the-labour-surge-polls-may-bounce-but-public-opinion-usually-doesnt/
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Pulpstar said:

    3 - 3 Miliband/Cameron @ PMQs (Sun) - not bad for Miliband going into the recess tbh.

    Grauniad gives it to Cameron and suggests that is the consensus

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/jul/09/butler-sloss-wrong-person-to-head-abuse-inquiry-says-danczuk-politics-live-blog
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:

    Thoughtful piece from Prof Tomkins on what should happen in Scotland in the event of a no-vote:

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/independence-if-scotland-votes-no-what-next-1-3470698

    Unfortunately he goes off the rails at the end with his lies regarding the ambitious plans of the unionists parties for major devolution. They are only offering responsibilities , not powers. Kidding on the tax is decided and cutting the budget and leaving Scotland at the mercy of an arbitrary number is nothing great. They are retaining all powers that matter at Westminster.
    As a professed democrat, I'd have thought you'd welcome a national conversation on Barnett? Salmond keeps telling us how rich Scotland is, so perhaps money would be better spent elsewhere......

    Harman handling a sticky interview on R4 and her NCCL days well......

    My position is that Scotland should decide how to collect its own money and decide how to spend it as well. It should not be done by people we did not vote for in London. If you think that is democracy start sending me your salary and I will work out what you should spend it on.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Smarmeron said:

    @Tykejohnno
    That clears up whether UC has been signed off or not.....
    Oh, it doesn't, it is bluster and bullsh*t, in place of an answer.
    Dave stated it was signed off, the relevant department said it wasn't. who to believe?

    IDS predicts UC approval 'shortly'

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/43176/

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited July 2014

    The Guardian are on hilarious form today. This one's my favourite, a classic in a series of bonkers Guardian pieces on Boris:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/08/london-toxic-oxford-street-polluted-boris-johnson

    But this failed attempt at a smear job is perhaps more amusing for connoisseurs:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/08/andrea-leadsom-family-links-offshore-bank-donations-tories

    I particularly enjoyed this devastating revelation:

    The leak comes after ministers launched a scheme for Jersey account-holders to make disclosures last year. They claim the big challenge the authorities face is secret tax evasion, which is a crime. The chancellor, George Osborne, said in April: "If you're evading tax offshore, there is no safe haven and we will find you."

    But the findings contradict this picture of illegality. Many Jersey loopholes used by wealthy Britons to pass on their fortunes appear from our research to have been perfectly legal.


    You have to admire their chutzpah in trying to claim that the fact people have arranged their affairs in accordance with the law is a scandal. Would it be better if they were breaking the law?

    Inexplicably there is no front page article on Guardian.com about the tax treatment of Guardian Media Group's disposal of Trader Media Group to Apax Ptnrs for the tidy sum of £620m. Nor much about the compensation structure of GMG Chief Exec Andrew Miller (hint: £2.2m including bonus, of all things).

    In fact the information only appears in a round-up of other media sites.

    Disgraceful but wholly understandable and expected.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Socrates said:

    isam said:


    Make more low skilled jobs available by reducing the competition from overseas immigrants that have more incentive to do them

    This has exactly the same effect on the supply chain as removing competition for inefficient car parts makers by banning the import of cheaper car parts. Namely:
    1) Companies buying the car parts to make cars move overseas where they can buy cheaper, better parts.
    2) To the extent that they don't, the costs are paid by all the companies that use the cars, costing jobs right across the whole economy.

    The one you should be particularly worrying about in the next 20 years is (1), because communications technology and better machinery will make it possible to move all kinds of jobs out of the country whenever the government is preventing the workers from moving to the jobs. And when you offshore a job because you banned the person who would have done it from coming, you take some of the few remaining non-mobile support jobs with you.

    The coherent thing to do here is to crack down on trade as well to prevent the domestic job from turning into an import, but this policy is very short of mainstream advocates in the UK.
    Your logic only holds for tradeable products.
    No. No. No no no no no no no no.

    (1) holds for tradeable products, tradeable services and services that can be replaced by tradeable products and services.

    Japanese houses are made in factories. They don't look like they're made in factories, because they ship them in bits. But once the builders show up, the thing goes from a flat bit of land to a completed house before you know it. Because they're just bolting the house together. The parts were made in a factory somewhere, with machinery made in another factory somewhere else, and those will be places where they can get cheap labour. That means far fewer jobs for Japanese builders. They probably don't realize their jobs have gone overseas, but they have. And a lot of the related jobs that need to be near the place where stuff is getting produced have gone with them.

    This is true of nearly all products and services, with ever decreasing numbers of exceptions. You may need somebody on the ground to carry on doing it the same way, but you can also do it a different way. If the government stops you employing someone from Country Y from doing a job efficiently in Country X, the market will reconfigure that business so that it can move the job to Country Y.

    This happens even in a pre-internet world, but with good communications and robotics you'll be amazed what we can offshore in the next 20 years.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Froome has crashed, cobbles not even reached - drafting the team car to get back in the bunch now.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Tykejohnno

    "IDS predicts UC approval 'shortly"

    Sounds good, but what is his track record like on UC predictions?
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JackW said:

    Robert, with very high rental costs I think the loss of housing benefit in particular for adults in the London would be a significant factor for the indigenous population.

    Perhaps young single foreign workers are also more willing to flat/house share in greater multiples too.

    It's not just London, though. A relative of mine runs a business which does accountancy and admin for farms. One of their clients is a huge fruit-farm in Kent, which employs a lot of people - partly seasonal, but there is a surprising amount of work all year round as they have to clean and prepare the polytunnels for the next season. Accomodation is provided, and it's pretty good accomodation, so housing is not an obstacle. But again, virtually no English applicants for the jobs which are available.
    ...

    IDS is trying to tackle, to the mockery of many, not least on here?
    Tories only goal is to line both their own and their chums pockets.
    Your conclusions are all wrong. Indeed one-eyed. The govt is following the advice of labour's Frank Field. it is cutting back abuses capping benefits and making work more lucrative than benefits. Its working too if you look at the figures.
    Whilst people are getting housing benefit it is not worth people working at the lower end of the scale , given zero hours contracts, minimum wage etc etc. Whilst you can get more money on the dole there is no incentive to work unless it is for cash in hand. The govt is not solving that issue, it is merely cutting some benefits.
    It will not solve the problem.
    However my real point was that if they expended as much energy on the real big frauds taking place at the high end , then the benefits issue would be less relevant , still an issue for society but not as big a financial issue. Explain how that is one eyed.
    Spouting out 'zero hours contracts' is meaningless. People are in work and getting paid. it has kept companies in business and people in jobs.
    The government is combating fraud quite successfully so your argument fails
    https://fullfact.org/factchecks/DWP_fraud_hotline_success_rate_prosecutions-3167
    Combating benefit fraud is important but the extent of it is limited. The point about capping and limiting benefits is to prevent it being a lifestyle choice. The govt have cut tax allowances to help low paid as well.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Smarmeron said:

    @Tykejohnno

    "IDS predicts UC approval 'shortly"

    Sounds good, but what is his track record like on UC predictions?

    I'm sure if he signs it off like he say's 'very shortly,you be one of the first on here saying well done ;-)

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JackW said:

    Robert, with very high rental costs I think the loss of housing benefit in particular for adults in the London would be a significant factor for the indigenous population.

    Perhaps young single foreign workers are also more willing to flat/house share in greater multiples too.

    It's not just London, though. A relative of mine runs a business which does accountancy and admin for farms. One of their clients is a huge fruit-farm in Kent, which employs a lot of people - partly seasonal, but there is a surprising amount of work all year round as they have to clean and prepare the polytunnels for the next season. Accomodation is provided, and it's pretty good accomodation, so housing is not an obstacle. But again, virtually no English applicants for the jobs which are available.
    ...

    Tories only goal is to line both their own and their chums pockets.
    Your conclusions are all wrong. Indeed one-eyed. The govt is following the advice of labour's Frank Field. it is cutting back abuses capping benefits and making work more lucrative than benefits. Its working too if you look at the figures.
    e eyed.
    Spouting out 'zero hours contracts' is meaningless. People are in work and getting paid. it has kept companies in business and people in jobs.
    The government is combating fraud quite successfully so your argument fails
    https://fullfact.org/factchecks/DWP_fraud_hotline_success_rate_prosecutions-3167
    Combating benefit fraud is important but the extent of it is limited. The point about capping and limiting benefits is to prevent it being a lifestyle choice. The govt have cut tax allowances to help low paid as well.
    Yet you ignore the fact that they do little to chase the real benefits cheats at the top end of the scale where most of the fraud takes place. If they closed tax loopholes and chased tax evaders they would get much better return , but they would rather harry the poor as easier targets. How does benefits fraud compare with tax evasion. How many successful prosecutions at the top end.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Thoughtful piece from Prof Tomkins on what should happen in Scotland in the event of a no-vote:

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/independence-if-scotland-votes-no-what-next-1-3470698

    Unfortunately he goes off the rails at the end with his lies regarding the ambitious plans of the unionists parties for major devolution. They are only offering responsibilities , not powers. Kidding on the tax is decided and cutting the budget and leaving Scotland at the mercy of an arbitrary number is nothing great. They are retaining all powers that matter at Westminster.
    As a professed democrat, I'd have thought you'd welcome a national conversation on Barnett? Salmond keeps telling us how rich Scotland is, so perhaps money would be better spent elsewhere......

    Harman handling a sticky interview on R4 and her NCCL days well......

    My position is that Scotland should decide how to collect its own money and decide how to spend it as well. It should not be done by people we did not vote for in London. If you think that is democracy start sending me your salary and I will work out what you should spend it on.
    In the context of a no vote, the people of Scotland will have decided to be "governed by people they did not vote for" - and in that context, why not review a spending formula decades past it's sell by date?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Tykejohnno

    So, it hasn't been signed off, but is being drip fed with money instead?
    But very shortly, the committee will change it's mind and sign it off as normal?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited July 2014
    isam said:

    isam said:


    Make more low skilled jobs available by reducing the competition from overseas immigrants that have more incentive to do them

    This has exactly the same effect on the supply chain as removing competition for inefficient car parts makers by banning the import of cheaper car parts. Namely:
    1) Companies buying the car parts to make cars move overseas where they can buy cheaper, better parts.
    2) To the extent that they don't, the costs are paid by all the companies that use the cars, costing jobs right across the whole economy.

    The one you should be particularly worrying about in the next 20 years is (1), because communications technology and better machinery will make it possible to move all kinds of jobs out of the country whenever the government is preventing the workers from moving to the jobs. And when you offshore a job because you banned the person who would have done it from coming, you take some of the few remaining non-mobile support jobs with you.

    The coherent thing to do here is to crack down on trade as well to prevent the domestic job from turning into an import, but this policy is very short of mainstream advocates in the UK.
    No it isn't. I'm talking about unskilled minimum wage jobs that anyone can do.
    If we're only talking about minimum wage jobs I don't see how you think you're going to increase the incentive to take them, since they'll still only be paying the minimum wage.

    In any case there aren't any jobs that anyone can do. All jobs require a minimum level of health, intelligence, dedication and non-criminality.

    If your original post said something coherent, your thought is that you can restrict competition to increase the costs paid by employers so they have to employ people they think are less good than the people they wanted to employ - either more expensive people or less good people. Depending which one you're trying to do, the effect of doing this on the supply chain is exactly the same as either restricting the import of expensive car parts or restricting the import of better quality parts.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    edited July 2014

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Thoughtful piece from Prof Tomkins on what should happen in Scotland in the event of a no-vote:

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/independence-if-scotland-votes-no-what-next-1-3470698

    Unfortunately he goes off the rails at the end with his lies regarding the ambitious plans of the unionists parties for major devolution. They are only offering responsibilities , not powers. Kidding on the tax is decided and cutting the budget and leaving Scotland at the mercy of an arbitrary number is nothing great. They are retaining all powers that matter at Westminster.
    As a professed democrat, I'd have thought you'd welcome a national conversation on Barnett? Salmond keeps telling us how rich Scotland is, so perhaps money would be better spent elsewhere......

    Harman handling a sticky interview on R4 and her NCCL days well......

    My position is that Scotland should decide how to collect its own money and decide how to spend it as well. It should not be done by people we did not vote for in London. If you think that is democracy start sending me your salary and I will work out what you should spend it on.
    In the context of a no vote, the people of Scotland will have decided to be "governed by people they did not vote for" - and in that context, why not review a spending formula decades past it's sell by date?
    Of course they will but deny it for now , unionists will not admit to it before the vote. If they do wish to change Barnett then they should give Scotland its own cash , which will be substantially higher than barnett money. Their only commitment is to slash the Scottish budget and if fools vote for that then they will deserve all they get.

    PS : I note you did not really answer the pocket money question.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Make more low skilled jobs available by reducing the competition from overseas immigrants that have more incentive to do them

    This has exactly the same effect on the supply chain as removing competition for inefficient car parts makers by banning the import of cheaper car parts. Namely:
    1) Companies buying the car parts to make cars move overseas where they can buy cheaper, better parts.
    2) To the extent that they don't, the costs are paid by all the companies that use the cars, costing jobs right across the whole economy.

    The one you should be particularly worrying about in the next 20 years is (1), because communications technology and better machinery will make it possible to move all kinds of jobs out of the country whenever the government is preventing the workers from moving to the jobs. And when you offshore a job because you banned the person who would have done it from coming, you take some of the few remaining non-mobile support jobs with you.

    The coherent thing to do here is to crack down on trade as well to prevent the domestic job from turning into an import, but this policy is very short of mainstream advocates in the UK.
    No it isn't. I'm talking about unskilled minimum wage jobs that anyone can do.
    If we're only talking about minimum wage jobs I don't see how you think you're going to increase the incentive to take them, since they'll still only be paying the minimum wage.

    In any case there aren't any jobs that anyone can do. All jobs require a minimum level of health, intelligence, dedication and non-criminality.

    If your original post said something coherent, your thought is that you can restrict competition to increase the costs paid by employers so they have to employ people they think are less good than the people they wanted to employ - either more expensive people or less good people. Depending which one you're trying to do, the effect of doing this on the supply chain is exactly the same as either restricting the import of expensive car parts or restricting the import of better quality parts.
    The incentive is that if you don't take a minimum wage job you lose your benefits

    I don't see how employers are paying more. They'd be paying the same but to different people
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''and producing an extreme sympathy case as if it were the norm.''

    The left is very prone to inventing plastic upstanding working class people in trouble to advance their politics. The creation never really rings true though.

    James O'Brien does it all the time. Also, take that 'working class family' from Jimmy McGovern's 'common' earlier this week. Working class family? Yeh right.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Time to lay England again at 3.0...
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:


    Make more low skilled jobs available by reducing the competition from overseas immigrants that have more incentive to do them

    This has exactly the same effect on the supply chain as removing competition for inefficient car parts makers by banning the import of cheaper car parts. Namely:
    1) Companies buying the car parts to make cars move overseas where they can buy cheaper, better parts.
    2) To the extent that they don't, the costs are paid by all the companies that use the cars, costing jobs right across the whole economy.

    The one you should be particularly worrying about in the next 20 years is (1), because communications technology and better machinery will make it possible to move all kinds of jobs out of the country whenever the government is preventing the workers from moving to the jobs. And when you offshore a job because you banned the person who would have done it from coming, you take some of the few remaining non-mobile support jobs with you.

    The coherent thing to do here is to crack down on trade as well to prevent the domestic job from turning into an import, but this policy is very short of mainstream advocates in the UK.
    No it isn't. I'm talking about unskilled minimum wage jobs that anyone can do.
    If we're only talking about minimum wage jobs I don't see how you think you're going to increase the incentive to take them, since they'll still only be paying the minimum wage.

    In any case there aren't any jobs that anyone can do. All jobs require a minimum level of health, intelligence, dedication and non-criminality.

    If your original post said something coherent, your thought is that you can restrict competition to increase the costs paid by employers so they have to employ people they think are less good than the people they wanted to employ - either more expensive people or less good people. Depending which one you're trying to do, the effect of doing this on the supply chain is exactly the same as either restricting the import of expensive car parts or restricting the import of better quality parts.
    The incentive is that if you don't take a minimum wage job you lose your benefits

    I don't see how employers are paying more. They'd be paying the same but to different people
    The benefit loss thing stands on its own whether or not you restrict competition.

    Employers are paying more in the minimum wage case because the people they're hiring after the government intervention you advocate aren't as good as the people they'd hire without government intervention. If they were, they'd already be hiring them.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JackW said:

    Robert, with very high rental costs I think the loss of housing benefit in particular for adults in the London would be a significant factor for the indigenous population.

    Perhaps young single foreign workers are also more willing to flat/house share in greater multiples too.

    It's not just London, though. A relative of mine runs a business which does accountancy and admin for farms. One of their clients is a huge fruit-farm in Kent, which employs a lot of people - partly seasonal, but there is a surprising amount of work all year round as they have to clean and prepare the polytunnels for the next season. Accomodation is provided, and it's pretty good accomodation, so housing is not an obstacle. But again, virtually no English applicants for the jobs which are available.
    ...

    Tories only goal is to line both their own and their chums pockets.
    Your conclusions are all wrong. Indeed one-eyed. The govt is following the advice of labour's Frank Field. it is cutting back abuses capping benefits and making work more lucrative than benefits. Its working too if you look at the figures.
    e eyed.
    Spouting out 'zero hours contracts' is meaningless. People are in work and getting paid. it has kept companies in business and people in jobs.
    The government is combating fraud quite successfully so your argument fails
    https://fullfact.org/factchecks/DWP_fraud_hotline_success_rate_prosecutions-3167
    Combating benefit fraud is important but the extent of it is limited. The point about capping and limiting benefits is to prevent it being a lifestyle choice. The govt have cut tax allowances to help low paid as well.
    Yet you ignore the fact that they do little to chase the real benefits cheats at the top end of the scale where most of the fraud takes place. If they closed tax loopholes and chased tax evaders they would get much better return , but they would rather harry the poor as easier targets. How does benefits fraud compare with tax evasion. How many successful prosecutions at the top end.
    The consensus is they have done far more than any recent incumbent of No 11 to close loopholes and avoidance schemes.

    They should be working through the arts world, music world, sports world and overpaid boardrooms as we speak.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,986
    Afternoon all :)

    The day after the night before and apart from an extraordinary cultural, historical and sporting event, a vivid example of how the most unlikely thing can still happen.

    Polls can be micro-analysed (as they are) and constituencies dissected and people can believe they know what's going to happen but as last night showed, the improbable happens.

    Nobody can discount a Labour landslide or even a Conservative landslide or all points in between and that wondrous uncertainty will keep us hooked for another ten months.

    I prefer horse racing - the wondrous uncertainty gets resolved and then you get another go.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    taffys said:

    ''and producing an extreme sympathy case as if it were the norm.''

    The left is very prone to inventing plastic upstanding working class people in trouble to advance their politics. The creation never really rings true though.

    James O'Brien does it all the time. Also, take that 'working class family' from Jimmy McGovern's 'common' earlier this week. Working class family? Yeh right.

    It takes genuine working class people to know that argument is a load of rubbish

    Middle class lefties have such a stupid idea of what working class people are like
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,813
    Working in the office where we get CVs has given me a new perspective on this, which is that the issue is not necessarily one of workers from outside the country accepting lower wages, but just the total lack of aptitude amongst so many applicants from the UK (in this case from Scotland). No covering letter, basic (really basic) spelling and grammar issues, mis-spelling of words that are in the company title, emails like (this one is real) 'NoPussy-NoDancing@hotmail.com' -these come in by the dozen whenever we have a position advertised. Not saying we don't get our fair share of loopy foreign applicants too, but it's just funny that I know these unsuccessful Scottish ones will go back and complain that there aren't any jobs out there. It's an education issue. We have produced an ill-educated unmotivated workforce.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,986
    On topic.

    The one issue we have to consider is whether Cameron would want to go on as LOTO and Conservative Party leader. The last man to return to No.10 was Harold Wilson and before that WSC so it just doesn't happen. My recollection is that both Major and Hague were desperate to quit as soon as the defeat was obvious and even Brown came to realise the futility of his position.

    After ten years leading the Party and five years as Prime Minister, why would Cameron want or need to go on ? My guess if he loses next year, he'll quit quickly and cleanly and leave the Party to choose the new Leader. Unlikely Hague and IDS, neither of whom made it to No.10, I cannot see David Cameron serving in another man's Cabinet. My guess is he'll do a final term in Witney and then go on to something else.

    What we will then see is a defeated and vengeful Conservative Party turning its fire on UKIP and, as Cameron tried to (with some success) after 2005with the Lib Dems, we will see the new Conservative leadership "love bombing" Farage and UKIP into submission or absorption.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    May isn't even up there in the list.If she was she would be streets ahead,a sure-fire election winner.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Working in the office where we get CVs has given me a new perspective on this, which is that the issue is not necessarily one of workers from outside the country accepting lower wages, but just the total lack of aptitude amongst so many applicants from the UK (in this case from Scotland). No covering letter, basic (really basic) spelling and grammar issues, mis-spelling of words that are in the company title, emails like (this one is real) 'NoPussy-NoDancing@hotmail.com' -these come in by the dozen whenever we have a position advertised. Not saying we don't get our fair share of loopy foreign applicants too, but it's just funny that I know these unsuccessful Scottish ones will go back and complain that there aren't any jobs out there. It's an education issue. We have produced an ill-educated unmotivated workforce.

    Noooooooooooooooo! You can't say that today of all days. Tomorrow teachers are going on strike, aren't they? If the education system has actually been churning out ill-educated and unmotivated people who can't spell (let alone do sums), then those that have been criticising the educational establishment might actually be seen to have been correct. People might actually start thinking that Gove has a point.

    I demand that you withdraw your final sentence.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quite a poor day for UK economic statistics today. The BRC Shop Price Index worsened to -1.8% y-o-y, and house prices weakened more than expected to -0.6% m-o-m. This follows from yesterday's announcement that both UK industrial production and manufacturing production unexpectedly fell last month.

    None of these are particularly important statistics, per se, and you should always be cautious about reading too much into single data points, but after a run of good economic data, we should be aware that the latest stats are not so encouraging.

    Falling shop prices because of pricing action from the major supermarkets and slightly falling house prices are not really a big worry. Neither were yesterday's figures, a statistical phantom IMO. There is too much real world evidence in the UK economy elsewhere that shows decent production growth for the ONS figures to make sense. Next month the index will probably bounce back and in subsequent months both will be revised to show steady growth.
    I agree: I am just slightly correcting the tendency of somebody (who shall remain nameless) to only post positive UK economic statistics.
    I can't think who you have in mind, Robert.

    Max is right about the fall in the Halifax House Price Index not being bad news, if it is significant news at all.

    The BoE (and media) have been pushing to curb house price inflation through public warnings and it now seems to be working.

    What the Halifax Index doesn't tell us though is what the regional variation in price rises is. With London prices growing well over twenty per cent and other regions barely growing at all this is necessary information before useful conclusions can be drawn. What we know from other indices is that central London prices have been falling quite significantly in the past few months so the Halifax aggregate UK index may just be reacting to price movements in the capital.s

    [to be continued]
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2014
    @rcs1000

    Halifax House Price Index: Part II

    Anyway here is the yellow box which shows that on a quarterly basis UK houses prices have grown by 2.3% and on an annual basis by 8.8%. These remain the highest rates of growth recorded over the past year, though the current price/earnings ratio at 4.95 has begun to fall back from its high.
    =================================================================
    Period Index Standardised Monthly Qtrly Annual Price/
    1983=100 Average Change Change Change Earnings
    Price % %* %** Ratio
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Jun 2013 542.7 £167,668 0.5% 2.2% 3.7% 4.56
    Jul 548.8 £169,567 1.1% 2.0% 4.6% 4.60
    Aug 550.7 £170,149 0.3% 2.0% 5.4% 4.62
    Sep 552.7 £170,767 0.4% 2.0% 6.2% 4.64
    Oct 559.8 £172,960 1.3% 2.0% 6.9% 4.69
    Nov 565.0 £174,564 0.9% 2.1% 7.7% 4.74
    Dec 562.1 £173,677 -0.5% 2.0% 7.5% 4.68
    Jan 2014 568.8 £175,736 1.2% 2.0% 7.3% 4.74
    Feb 583.1 £180,163 2.5% 2.2% 7.9% 4.87
    Mar 576.1 £177,996 -1.2% 2.3% 8.7% 4.79
    Apr 574.6 £177,524 -0.3% 2.2% 8.5% 4.78
    May 597.3 £184,566 4.0% 2.0% 8.7% 4.98
    Jun 593.8 £183,462 -0.6% 2.3% 8.8% 4.95
    =================================================================
    All good news for the economy.

    The worrying bit is the fall in volume of sales, which have been very low since the recession and a driver of the high rates of price increase.

    The relevant key points from the Halifax report (May rather than June and not their own stats.) are

    • Home sales edged down by 3% in May to below 100,000 for the first time in six months; however, transactions are still 15% higher than in May 2013.
    (Source: HMRC, seasonally adjusted figures)

    • New buyer enquires fell for the sixth consecutive month in May, which if sustained could moderate further growth in demand.
    (Source: RICS)
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Working in the office where we get CVs has given me a new perspective on this, which is that the issue is not necessarily one of workers from outside the country accepting lower wages, but just the total lack of aptitude amongst so many applicants from the UK (in this case from Scotland). No covering letter, basic (really basic) spelling and grammar issues, mis-spelling of words that are in the company title, emails like (this one is real) 'NoPussy-NoDancing@hotmail.com' -these come in by the dozen whenever we have a position advertised. Not saying we don't get our fair share of loopy foreign applicants too, but it's just funny that I know these unsuccessful Scottish ones will go back and complain that there aren't any jobs out there. It's an education issue. We have produced an ill-educated unmotivated workforce.

    If that email is genuinely genuine then you really, really, really shouldn't be posting it on an internet forum.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Froome almost certainly out the Tour De France.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    edited July 2014
    On topic, I think whether Cameron goes immediately is going to be a function of where we are after the election. If the Tory vote holds up well, but Labour has a small leads in seats because of the defection of LibDem voters - and there is a risk of a period of unstable Government and a possible election in October or the following spring - then he could be convinced to stay.

    A short period of a minority Ed Miliband Govt, with all the fun and games that will bring in the markets, coupled with Ed grovelling to Brussels and a period for buyers' remorse from the Kippers could see Cameron as PM again by 2016....
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''We have produced an ill-educated unmotivated workforce.''

    The other day I interviewed a (quite good, hard working and quick) lady who came into the interview carrying a appletize-type soft drink bottle from which she swigged intermittently throughout the process.

    Another (young, well qualified) lady wore a jean jacket.

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Pulpstar said:

    Froome almost certainly out the Tour De France.

    Didn't he take a tumble? - thought I heard something on the wireless earlier today.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Froome abandons.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    On a happy note before I go off to do the ironing. I see the pilot of a US budget airliner, which was diverted because of bad weather, rang up the local Domino Pizza place and, on his own credit card, had pizzas delivered to the plane for all his passengers who were stuck on it. What a great guy.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/10955623/Pilot-orders-pizza-for-delayed-passengers.html
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    BBC Breaking News ✔ @BBCBreaking

    Britain's defending Tour de France champion Chris Froome quits this year's race after crashing for third time http://bbc.in/1tn9Ywr

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @edmundintokyo

    To an extent, although I think you overegg it.

    Having said that, I don't see why offshoring jobs to cheap countries, because demand is outstripping supply and pushing up prices in your home country, as a bad thing. If it gets to the point where it's causing unemployment among the low skilled in your home country, the price of domestic low skilled workers will drop until they're in work again. The danger offshoring argument just doesn't justify depressing low skilled wages here.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Joel Taylor @JoelTaylorMetro

    Britain's summer of sporting woe continues; Chris Froome is out of the Tour de France. No one is left to win Sports Personality of the Year

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Pulpstar said:

    Froome abandons.

    That serves Sky right for giving precedence to a commoner over a Knight of the Realm.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''The worrying bit is the fall in volume of sales, which have been very low since the recession and a driver of the high rates of price increase.''

    There is clearly a buyers' strike as values are completely over extended. There is a stack of pent up demand, but just not at these levels.

    Plus....people think rates are going up and don't want to take on huge mortgages.

    Plus... Who wants to buy and sell houses when the government rakes in so much stamp duty?

  • BBC Breaking News ✔ @BBCBreaking

    Britain's defending Tour de France champion Chris Froome quits this year's race after crashing for third time http://bbc.in/1tn9Ywr

    Can anyone come up with a single credible candidate to win SPOTY 2014?

    A British winner at the Open next week, unlikely though that is, would probably be a shoo-in.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014


    BBC Breaking News ✔ @BBCBreaking

    Britain's defending Tour de France champion Chris Froome quits this year's race after crashing for third time http://bbc.in/1tn9Ywr

    Can anyone come up with a single credible candidate to win SPOTY 2014?

    A British winner at the Open next week, unlikely though that is, would probably be a shoo-in.
    Lewis Hamilton if he wins the world title. Possibly a star from the Commonwealths?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704


    BBC Breaking News ✔ @BBCBreaking

    Britain's defending Tour de France champion Chris Froome quits this year's race after crashing for third time http://bbc.in/1tn9Ywr

    Can anyone come up with a single credible candidate to win SPOTY 2014?

    A British winner at the Open next week, unlikely though that is, would probably be a shoo-in.
    Would Hamilton have a chance if he is World Champ?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    SPOTY - Andy Murray wins the US Open for a second time ?
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362


    Joel Taylor @JoelTaylorMetro

    Britain's summer of sporting woe continues; Chris Froome is out of the Tour de France. No one is left to win Sports Personality of the Year

    Isn't the true fact that we are back to the norm of british sport,2013 was a outstanding year for sport in this country.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2014
    taffys said:

    ''The worrying bit is the fall in volume of sales, which have been very low since the recession and a driver of the high rates of price increase.''

    There is clearly a buyers' strike as values are completely over extended. There is a stack of pent up demand, but just not at these levels.

    Plus....people think rates are going up and don't want to take on huge mortgages.

    Plus... Who wants to buy and sell houses when the government rakes in so much stamp duty?

    taffys

    I am not sure whether there has been any published research on why sales volume has been so low.

    I don't believe it is lack of demand as the ratio of home buying inquiries to homes for sale (a Rightmove stat.) has been at historical highs (around 8 times the number of 'buyers' to 'sellers' from memory).

    My speculation as to what is the primary cause is that sellers have been reluctant to realise a nominal price loss, especially in a market where rental demand is high. But then I was expecting sales volumes to rise disproportionately as prices across the UK reached their pre-crisis levels but this doesn't seem to be happening, at least not yet.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Socrates said:

    BobaFett said:

    isam said:

    This seems perfectly obvious

    Make more low skilled jobs available by reducing the competition from overseas immigrants that have more incentive to do them

    Make the jobs more attractive by removing benefits from people who refuse to do them

    Protectionism at the low end of society is needed, it doesn't need to be a dirty word.

    This would also mean that the immigrants that do work here would be of a higher skilllset, have more money, and probably be more inclined to assimilate

    As usual, an overly simplistic prospectus. Would you remove benefits for a mum of three whose partner has abandoned her? In which case, would you take the children into care - as she would have no way of looking after them while being forced to work.

    Were this as simple as the reactionary right think it is, it would have been solved decades ago. Thankfully politicians of the sensible centre-left and centre-right realise it's a complex issue with few if any easy answers.
    If the jobs paid a decent wage, she could afford childcare for a couple hours after school. In addition, we could make childcare far cheaper by getting rid of the ridiculous ratio system. But when the Coalition tried to do that, Labour idiots threw a strop.
    To be fair, with parents and child care, it's always a tough call.

    Three kids. Childcare for under 5s very rarely has higher than 3-1 staff kid ratios, because looking after young kids requires constant vigilence.

    So, assuming the mother earned the same as care giver (and if not, we're assuming a whole class of people on very low salaries...), then the mother would be giving all her income away (and this assumes no other costs for the childcare, and no tax or NI). It also ignores time costs of commuting, etc. etc.

    It's a real toughy.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    philiph said:


    BBC Breaking News ✔ @BBCBreaking

    Britain's defending Tour de France champion Chris Froome quits this year's race after crashing for third time http://bbc.in/1tn9Ywr

    Can anyone come up with a single credible candidate to win SPOTY 2014?

    A British winner at the Open next week, unlikely though that is, would probably be a shoo-in.
    Would Hamilton have a chance if he is World Champ?
    Hamilton is handicapped by being a tax exile.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815


    Joel Taylor @JoelTaylorMetro

    Britain's summer of sporting woe continues; Chris Froome is out of the Tour de France. No one is left to win Sports Personality of the Year

    Ed Miliband for bacon butty munching?

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,986

    On topic, I think whether Cameron goes immediately is going to be a function of where we are after the election. If the Tory vote holds up well, but Labour has a small leads in seats because of the defection of LibDem voters - and there is a risk of a period of unstable Government and a possible election in October or the following spring - then he could be convinced to stay.

    A short period of a minority Ed Miliband Govt, with all the fun and games that will bring in the markets, coupled with Ed grovelling to Brussels and a period for buyers' remorse from the Kippers could see Cameron as PM again by 2016....

    I'm less convinced. The only scenario I see Cameron staying is a Labour minority but the LDs and other parties won't want another election quickly so as long as there are more Labour MPs than Conservative/DUP (?) Ed M will be safe for a while.

    In truth, Cameron could have governed on the same basis in 2010 - he didn't HAVE to create a Coalition to govern but it suited him (and Nick Clegg) to do so.



  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Hamilton is handicapped by being a tax exile.

    that, and he's a rather strange sort of cove....can't make head or tail...
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    stodge said:

    On topic, I think whether Cameron goes immediately is going to be a function of where we are after the election. If the Tory vote holds up well, but Labour has a small leads in seats because of the defection of LibDem voters - and there is a risk of a period of unstable Government and a possible election in October or the following spring - then he could be convinced to stay.

    A short period of a minority Ed Miliband Govt, with all the fun and games that will bring in the markets, coupled with Ed grovelling to Brussels and a period for buyers' remorse from the Kippers could see Cameron as PM again by 2016....

    I'm less convinced. The only scenario I see Cameron staying is a Labour minority but the LDs and other parties won't want another election quickly so as long as there are more Labour MPs than Conservative/DUP (?) Ed M will be safe for a while.

    In truth, Cameron could have governed on the same basis in 2010 - he didn't HAVE to create a Coalition to govern but it suited him (and Nick Clegg) to do so.



    A Coalition was necessary in order to establish a sustainable government which would have to take difficult decisions about an economy trashed by Labour, not a government under threat of frequent ambushes.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited July 2014
    Socrates said:

    @edmundintokyo

    To an extent, although I think you overegg it.

    Having said that, I don't see why offshoring jobs to cheap countries, because demand is outstripping supply and pushing up prices in your home country, as a bad thing. If it gets to the point where it's causing unemployment among the low skilled in your home country, the price of domestic low skilled workers will drop until they're in work again. The danger offshoring argument just doesn't justify depressing low skilled wages here.

    Jobs depend on other jobs and all workers aren't in fact completely interchangeable.

    Say you've got a field where you can grow fruit, which is a very labour-intensive business. Fruit buyers can also import fruit from other countries if you can't sell it at a reasonable price. The fruit picking is currently being done by low-paid people from Romania. There are some British people in the town who, for various reasons some of which are discussed up-thread, aren't taking the fruit picking jobs.

    The thought is that if you stop the Romanians from entering the country, the farmer will have to pay the unemployed British people more to pick the fruit, they'll take the fruit-picking jobs, and they won't be unemployed any more. But the risk is that what actually happens is that the fruit growing business is no longer competitive, because somebody can hire the Romanians in another country, and that economic activity stops and gets replaced by something that produces a lower return.

    But what's worse is that when you get rid of that economic activity, you also get rid of the surrounding work that was benefiting from that activity - say the guy working at the petrol station or the local shop, or the person helping do the accounting. Some of these jobs were being done by British people, and when you remove the economic activity that's funding their jobs, they either become unemployed, or take lower-paying jobs. Like a lot of government intervention into the operation of free markets, this ends up resulting in the opposite of what it was supposed to accomplish.

    PS. This is meant as an example to illustrate the mechanisms at work, I don't know anything about the fruit business.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2014
    perdix said:

    stodge said:

    On topic, I think whether Cameron goes immediately is going to be a function of where we are after the election. If the Tory vote holds up well, but Labour has a small leads in seats because of the defection of LibDem voters - and there is a risk of a period of unstable Government and a possible election in October or the following spring - then he could be convinced to stay.

    A short period of a minority Ed Miliband Govt, with all the fun and games that will bring in the markets, coupled with Ed grovelling to Brussels and a period for buyers' remorse from the Kippers could see Cameron as PM again by 2016....

    I'm less convinced. The only scenario I see Cameron staying is a Labour minority but the LDs and other parties won't want another election quickly so as long as there are more Labour MPs than Conservative/DUP (?) Ed M will be safe for a while.

    In truth, Cameron could have governed on the same basis in 2010 - he didn't HAVE to create a Coalition to govern but it suited him (and Nick Clegg) to do so.



    A Coalition was necessary in order to establish a sustainable government which would have to take difficult decisions about an economy trashed by Labour, not a government under threat of frequent ambushes.

    It was also essential to communicate to the markets that there was a credible and stable political commitment to implement the fiscal consolidation required for the UK economy to recover.

    That political stability and commitment to fiscal repair was a major factor in the keeping low the rates at which the UK could continue to borrow.

    As a result the UK managed to steer clear of the worst of the eurozone borrowing crisis.

  • shadsyshadsy Posts: 289
    Every GB constituency now priced up at Ladbrokes.
    Plus here's a short bit about the betting markets non-reaction to Labour poll leads:
    http://ow.ly/yXl2W
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    shadsy said:

    Every GB constituency now priced up at Ladbrokes.

    Impressive work, Shadsy!
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Isam

    You dismiss a genuine idea as ridiculous yet do not give a reason why it is ridiculous. Fairly poor standard of debate from you today sir.

    "Everyone with an idea is a crank until the idea succeeds" - Mark Twain.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @OSM

    People's reaction to the citizen's payment is just that - a reaction. Of the knee jerk variety. It's a clever idea, but god is in the details.

    Anything to destroy the insidious Benefits Trap.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Isam

    You still haven't answered my question about what you would do with the children of single mothers whom you forced to work. Simplistic and wrong - that sums up your arguments today.
  • MikePMikeP Posts: 47
    isam said:

    taffys said:

    ''and producing an extreme sympathy case as if it were the norm.''

    The left is very prone to inventing plastic upstanding working class people in trouble to advance their politics. The creation never really rings true though.

    James O'Brien does it all the time. Also, take that 'working class family' from Jimmy McGovern's 'common' earlier this week. Working class family? Yeh right.

    It takes genuine working class people to know that argument is a load of rubbish

    Middle class lefties have such a stupid idea of what working class people are like
    But a far better idea than middle class Rightwingers, who tend to think working class people are all uncooth, bitter, immigrant-hating Clarkson-Littlejohns.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    BobaFett said:

    @Isam

    You still haven't answered my question about what you would do with the children of single mothers whom you forced to work. Simplistic and wrong - that sums up your arguments today.

    That's because it's a straw man that you have invented. I never said all benefits should be withdrawn, just that if people were refusing work they shouldn't be given JSA

    If she wasn't able to work the she wouldn't be claiming it anyway do wouldn't be denied it

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    BobaFett said:

    @Isam

    You dismiss a genuine idea as ridiculous yet do not give a reason why it is ridiculous. Fairly poor standard of debate from you today sir.

    "Everyone with an idea is a crank until the idea succeeds" - Mark Twain.

    Because trying to get people off benefits by giving out more benefits to more people is ridiculous it's self explanatory.

    Give people a bit if self respect by letting them earn money without being in debt to the state for handouts
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    shadsy said:

    Every GB constituency now priced up at Ladbrokes.

    Impressive work, Shadsy!
    You mean you haven't spotted any gross errors that you can exploit...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    I know it's meant as a bit of fun, but this does imply a rather creepy mindset

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/07/we-are-all-numbers-in-labours-computer-now/
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    BobaFett said:

    @OSM

    People's reaction to the citizen's payment is just that - a reaction. Of the knee jerk variety. It's a clever idea, but god is in the details.

    Anything to destroy the insidious Benefits Trap.

    It is an idea which would seem to have several very nasty drawbacks a couple of which I raised earlier. So maybe a few less smug remarks and allegations about knee-jerk reactions might not come amiss.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    isam said:

    BobaFett said:

    @Isam

    You dismiss a genuine idea as ridiculous yet do not give a reason why it is ridiculous. Fairly poor standard of debate from you today sir.

    "Everyone with an idea is a crank until the idea succeeds" - Mark Twain.

    Because trying to get people off benefits by giving out more benefits to more people is ridiculous it's self explanatory.

    Give people a bit if self respect by letting them earn money without being in debt to the state for handouts
    Whether it's viable or not, the citizens income is not an entirely stupid idea. It eliminates at a stroke all benefits fraud, eliminates a wasteful layer of bureaucracy, ensures that marginal tax rates for work are minimized, and stops the harmful cycle of housing benefit increasing home prices which increases the cost of housing benefit.

    Unfortunately, as Charles has pointed out, it's probably not affordable.

    Just a quick thought on C.I. - if it were treated like regular income, and subject to income tax then the cost of giving it to higher paid workers would be massively reduced. Whether that would be a sufficient saving to make it work is another matter altogether.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited July 2014
    NEW THREAD

    Argentina 1:7 Netherlands
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    England and India same odds to win the test, both 4.2 - what a joke...
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    MikeP said:

    isam said:

    taffys said:

    ''and producing an extreme sympathy case as if it were the norm.''

    The left is very prone to inventing plastic upstanding working class people in trouble to advance their politics. The creation never really rings true though.

    James O'Brien does it all the time. Also, take that 'working class family' from Jimmy McGovern's 'common' earlier this week. Working class family? Yeh right.

    It takes genuine working class people to know that argument is a load of rubbish

    Middle class lefties have such a stupid idea of what working class people are like
    But a far better idea than middle class Rightwingers, who tend to think working class people are all uncooth, bitter, immigrant-hating Clarkson-Littlejohns.
    Crikey, you criticise a group because in your stereotype of them they stereotype another group. The Gospel According to St Matthew verses 1 to 7 might be worthwhile reading for you.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited July 2014


    Joel Taylor @JoelTaylorMetro

    Britain's summer of sporting woe continues; Chris Froome is out of the Tour de France. No one is left to win Sports Personality of the Year

    Long shot for SPOTY: Jonny Wilkinson - European and French champion/Now Retired (Sentimental Vote)

    Longer Shot: Gareth Bale - European champion

    Watch out for Charley Hull, winning women's golf tournaments at 18.

    Edit!! JW not such a long shot. He's second favourite! :)

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Following Germany's weak industrial production number on Monday, and the UK's weak one on Tuesday, we now have very poor numbers out from the Netherlands, France and Italy.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    EDIT: actually, the numbers are aren't quite all bad - prior month's industrial production was revised upwards in France, Finland, and the Netherlands. In some cases, the revisions are substantial: Finland goes from a 0.5% drop in May, to a 0.5% increase.

    Nevertheless, 'not all bad' is still 'not very good at all'.
This discussion has been closed.