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  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Have to say this is an excellent response from Brazil. But if they get caught with another break away goal I think their heads will go down.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    It's Ashcroft's revenge for us sneering at his poll, innit?

    My theory FWIW is still that Labour has a semi-apathetic reserve of about 3% which says "don't know" in quiet times but "Labour" when things heat up. The Tory vote is pretty solid but the pool of Tory leaners is smaller - the party isn't widely liked outside its own ranks.
    I also think floating voters have got a bit bored with the "Ed is weird" stuff.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    edited July 2014
    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    It is curious isn't it - it's worth recalling that last week was the Conservatives' best week with YouGov for 6 weeks - average Lab lead just 2.4% over the 5 polls (week up to and including the Sunday Times YouGov).

    Then within just 2 days we have 3 polls with a Lab lead of 7% (albeit plus a YouGov with a lead of 3%).

    I haven't seen anyone suggest this but could Coulson actually going to prison be a factor?

    EDIT: Hadn't seen the other posts within the previous few mins when I wrote that!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Extraordinary surge by Labour, almost Teutonic. I find it really hard to understand what is causing this,

    As the days go by, and even as it seems the Tories should be getting more support (rather than merely Labour support declining,as very slightly had appeared the case),it is getting harder and harder to see when the Tories will have a chance to turn things around,even as there appears not much that should impact them negatively in a significant way. If they haven't turned it around already, is the Ed M affect really enough on its own to stop it? It seems doubtful.

    I agree and said as much on a thread just over a week ago. There is no sign of swing back at all, the tories are struggling to get out of the low 30s. There is still time but the odds are swinging very strongly in favour as Labour as largest party and increasingly with an outright majority.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    @TSE

    Re the Enoch comment, I think he only meant it in the same way that it would seem, at the moment, very strange to think of a white man as Pakistani.. maybe in 50 years time if there is mass immigration to Pakistan from Northern Europe it will seem racist in hindsight, but at the moment, if a Pakistani said it, I wouldn't feel like he was having a go at me

    I'll dig out the full quote, but Enoch was a racist, and wrong on that, and many other things.

    He was talking about the principle, which is what is currently espoused by Nick Griffin "If I were born in a barn, that doesn't make me a horse"
    Indeed. It's not like there weren't non-whites who already had British passports and identified with this country in the 1960s.
    There was a piece by Peter Oborne a few years ago, to tie in with his book on the D'Oliveria affair, said that it was the timing of the D'Oliveria affair is what damaged Enoch more than anything else.

    Who would have thought that a Cape Coloured help changed the world, and this country, so much.
    I think even without D'Oliveria acceptance would have happened. Britishness is not something that exists at a genetic level. It is something that is held in our minds. It's a set of common customs, dispositions and allegiances that unites us. You can have that whether your descent is from the Jutes, the Normans, the Igbo or the Sindhis.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    Unwind from the Juncker stuff, and I'm going to say the paedophile story and headlines aren't helping the government.

    You may be right, and the government may have scored another own goal in choosing Elizabeth Butler-Sloss to head the enquiry, given her brother was Attorney General at the time of some of these events.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    @TSE

    Re the Enoch comment, I think he only meant it in the same way that it would seem, at the moment, very strange to think of a white man as Pakistani.. maybe in 50 years time if there is mass immigration to Pakistan from Northern Europe it will seem racist in hindsight, but at the moment, if a Pakistani said it, I wouldn't feel like he was having a go at me

    I'll dig out the full quote, but Enoch was a racist, and wrong on that, and many other things.

    He was talking about the principle, which is what is currently espoused by Nick Griffin "If I were born in a barn, that doesn't make me a horse"
    Indeed. It's not like there weren't non-whites who already had British passports and identified with this country in the 1960s.
    There was a piece by Peter Oborne a few years ago, to tie in with his book on the D'Oliveria affair, said that it was the timing of the D'Oliveria affair is what damaged Enoch more than anything else.

    Who would have thought that a Cape Coloured help changed the world, and this country, so much.
    I think even without D'Oliveria acceptance would have happened. Britishness is not something that exists at a genetic level. It is something that is held in our minds. It's a set of common customs, dispositions and allegiances that unites us. You can have that whether your descent is from the Jutes, the Normans, the Igbo or the Sindhis.
    I agree it would have happened without D'Oliveria, but D'Oliveria brought it forward quicker than it would have happened.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    Unwind from the Juncker stuff, and I'm going to say the paedophile story and headlines aren't helping the government.

    Bit of a role reversal tonight: I think there is sod all happening, and has been sod all happening since the polls settled down from the Euros. I reckon it's 34-37 and the rest is noise.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    SeanT said:

    I have no idea why the polls are all over the shop.

    And what's even better is that I DON'T GIVE A TROPOSPHERICAL F*CK

    Love. Love is all you need.

    LOVE.

    LURRRRRRRVE.

    I hereby announce my retirement from pb until I have come a less sentimental, oversexed old fool

    You should pen something for the telegraph on this, the comments would be worth reading ;-)
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    Basil is officially depressed.

    SHOW ME THE CROSSOVER.....SHOW ME THE CROSSOVER!
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    It's Ashcroft's revenge for us sneering at his poll, innit?

    My theory FWIW is still that Labour has a semi-apathetic reserve of about 3% which says "don't know" in quiet times but "Labour" when things heat up. The Tory vote is pretty solid but the pool of Tory leaners is smaller - the party isn't widely liked outside its own ranks.
    I also think floating voters have got a bit bored with the "Ed is weird" stuff.
    Who hasn't? Even Tories - even some PB Tories - have got fed up with that bilge. I've read thoughtful posts on that topic from everyone from Topping to Peter Hitchens. It was all a bit sinister, and bloody moronic.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Good week for Lab in the Polls. Getting tempting the more than 9/4 on Betfair on Lab Maj.

    Will resist for now and stick with my Lab most seats balls deep bets. But will be interesting to see Prof Fishers next results
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    Socrates Indeed, but Cameron has basically said that. Conference season etc may help to reinforce the message. There remains no real enthusiasm for Labour though, they average 35% with Anthony Wells, less than Cameron got last time, and if Miliband gets in it will be with the weakest mandate since the war, and he will soon make Hollande look popular. No wonder one unnamed Labour Shadow Minister told the Sunday Times last week that the only thing worse than a Labour defeat would be a Miliband victory, it could lead to a government so awful Labour would be out for a generation!
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2014

    Basil is officially depressed.

    SHOW ME THE CROSSOVER.....SHOW ME THE CROSSOVER!

    I'm not surprised he's depressed, 'pouter.

    I would be if I were dead.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited July 2014
    The joy of Sechs for Germany
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    @TSE

    Re the Enoch comment, I think he only meant it in the same way that it would seem, at the moment, very strange to think of a white man as Pakistani.. maybe in 50 years time if there is mass immigration to Pakistan from Northern Europe it will seem racist in hindsight, but at the moment, if a Pakistani said it, I wouldn't feel like he was having a go at me

    I'll dig out the full quote, but Enoch was a racist, and wrong on that, and many other things.

    He was talking about the principle, which is what is currently espoused by Nick Griffin "If I were born in a barn, that doesn't make me a horse"
    Have to agree to disagree then
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Eins, zwei, drei,   
    Eins, zwei, drei,
    Vier, fünf, sechs,
    Vier, fünf, sechs,
    ..................
    ..................
    Sieben, acht, neun,
    Sieben, acht, neun,
    Zehn, elf, zwölf,
    Zehn, elf, zwölf.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    That was a goal!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,116
    6-0 now???? WTF
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    Seems good news for Dave may have come earlier than expected - Britain will be able to claw back powers from Brussels - Juncker
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10955145/David-Cameron-will-be-able-to-reform-relationship-with-EU-says-Jean-Claude-Juncker.html
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @bigjohnowls
    Perhaps they are inadvertently starting to annoy people?

    "Fury over Michael Gove's 'hypocritical' £5m architect contract "
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/fury-over-michael-goves-hypocritical-5m-architect-contract-9593091.html
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    Unwind from the Juncker stuff, and I'm going to say the paedophile story and headlines aren't helping the government.

    You may be right, and the government may have scored another own goal in choosing Elizabeth Butler-Sloss to head the enquiry, given her brother was Attorney General at the time of some of these events.
    Only in the tin foil community. Butler-Sloss was head (I think) of the Family Bench and simply the best and most experienced judge that the country has in these matters. Michael Havers died 25 years ago (appointing him Lord Chancellor knowing he had terminal cancer was a great kindness that Thatcher did him). There is no conflict, and Butler-Sloss is far too good and experienced a judge to allow it to colour her judgement.

    But I've always had a soft spot for her - ever since when I was at school, I heard her, completely straight-faced, give the most explicit lecture on sexual etiquette to a room full of teenage boys that you can possible imagine!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Dan Hodges effect? DH wrong 100% of the time
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    6-0 now???? WTF

    Brazil are like India in the Sino-Indian war of '62, and the Germans are like The Chinese.

    *Innocent Face*
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Riots in 20 minutes.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    Dan Hodges effect? DH wrong 100% of the time

    I thought a stopped clock was at least right twice a day?! :p
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    This is possibly the most one sided contest involving Germans since 9AD....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Phil has 20 minutes of employment left. Unless he has received a text already.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Socrates said:

    HYUFD said:

    On the polls they are jumping around all over the place at the moment, the Tories have probably been hit more than Labour by the sex abuse cover up allegations and by Coulson's jailing, but the fundamentals remain, the Tories need to squeeze the UKIP vote back well below 10% towards 5% or they will lose, until that happens everything else is irrelevant. Cameron got a small boost from Juncker towards that goal, which has now receded, he has to keep focus on that aim

    Cameron has got huge boosts every time he's stood up for the UK against the EU centralising power. UKIP do better whenever the EU is in the news. The Lb Dem vote collapsed when they tried to be "the party of in". Huge shares of the country want major powers, including control of immigration, back in national hands. When are the political establishment going to realise that euroscepticism is politically popular?

    If the Conservatives came out and said, "We want A, B and C back from the EU or else we'll leave" they would win the next election. If they refuse to do that in order to stick up for a corrupt, undemocratic institution that has nothing but contempt for us, and let Ed Miliband in as a result, it will be sheer political malpractice.
    They get little bounces when they pick fights but they only last a week.

    As for saying what his red lines are, I'm not convinced the voters would follow it. A lot of them probably think he's already done it, and the sceptics who follow this thing closely are unlikely to be satisfied with whatever it is he wants.

    I'd certainly like to see him say something coherent, but it wouldn't win him the election.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Ok, my theory on why the polls are widening.

    Tories know if they take a lead in the polls, that doesn't help Better Together in the North Britain plebiscite.

    The Tories are Unionists (it's in the party name), so we're taking one for the Union between now and September the 19th.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Smarmeron said:

    @bigjohnowls
    Perhaps they are inadvertently starting to annoy people?

    "Fury over Michael Gove's 'hypocritical' £5m architect contract "
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/fury-over-michael-goves-hypocritical-5m-architect-contract-9593091.html

    That article includes the best abuse of statistics I have ever seen:

    Each worker will have around 11.25m² of workspace which compares to around 6m² per pupil in a typical new school.

    Do they think, possibly, just possibly, having all the civil servants sitting in a single room at rows of desks might not be the most efficient way to run a department?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited July 2014
    To cheer up the Scots and the Irish.

    The Germans are in your qualifying group for Euro 2016, so when you're six nil down, you can chant "It's just like watching Brazil"
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    Dan Hodges effect? DH wrong 100% of the time

    Shush. The nightmare scenario is that Hodges changes his mind and starts calling it a Labour win.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    Ok, my theory on why the polls are widening.

    Tories know if they take a lead in the polls, that doesn't help Better Together in the North Britain plebiscite.

    The Tories are Unionists (it's in the party name), so we're taking one for the Union between now and September the 19th.

    An amazing ability to manipulate their own public poll rating, that. A shame for them it only extends to creating a larger Labour lead, and not extending their own poll rating beyond the low 30s, when the time comes.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    Ok, my theory on why the polls are widening.

    Tories know if they take a lead in the polls, that doesn't help Better Together in the North Britain plebiscite.

    The Tories are Unionists (it's in the party name), so we're taking one for the Union between now and September the 19th.

    For me it has to be the paedophile stuff. The public is disgusted and the government is getting the blame. I can't think of anything else strong enough for this.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,116
    WTF??????/

    7-0!!!!!
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Eins, zwei, drei,   
    Eins, zwei, drei,
    Vier, fünf, sechs,
    Vier, fünf, sechs,
    Sieben,............
    Sieben,............
    ........acht, neun,
    ........acht, neun,
    Zehn, elf, zwölf,
    Zehn, elf, zwölf.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Charles
    Dunno what the space has to do with it. It is the architects fees I think would upset most, given him complaining about architects for schools?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Brazil 0 - Germany 7 (seven, sieben)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    OMG
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    kle4 said:

    Ok, my theory on why the polls are widening.

    Tories know if they take a lead in the polls, that doesn't help Better Together in the North Britain plebiscite.

    The Tories are Unionists (it's in the party name), so we're taking one for the Union between now and September the 19th.

    An amazing ability to manipulate their own public poll rating, that. A shame for them it only extends to creating a larger Labour lead, and not extending their own poll rating beyond the low 30s, when the time comes.
    If a pollster asked me how I'd vote, I'd say Labour, to keep the Union together.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    I seem to have a post stuck in the spam trap?!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    Unwind from the Juncker stuff, and I'm going to say the paedophile story and headlines aren't helping the government.

    You may be right, and the government may have scored another own goal in choosing Elizabeth Butler-Sloss to head the enquiry, given her brother was Attorney General at the time of some of these events.
    Only in the tin foil community. Butler-Sloss was head (I think) of the Family Bench and simply the best and most experienced judge that the country has in these matters. Michael Havers died 25 years ago (appointing him Lord Chancellor knowing he had terminal cancer was a great kindness that Thatcher did him). There is no conflict, and Butler-Sloss is far too good and experienced a judge to allow it to colour her judgement.

    But I've always had a soft spot for her - ever since when I was at school, I heard her, completely straight-faced, give the most explicit lecture on sexual etiquette to a room full of teenage boys that you can possible imagine!
    Of course Butler-Sloss would not be influenced but that is not the point

    Michael Havers was AG while the government was busy losing the Dickens dossier. There is an obvious conflict of interest. It is a stupid appointment because if she clears the government and all its ministers, many people will simply not believe her. I'd not be surprised if she stands down before the week is out. If she does not, then people will wonder what the government has to hide.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,116

    6-0 now???? WTF

    Brazil are like India in the Sino-Indian war of '62, and the Germans are like The Chinese.

    *Innocent Face*
    Nah, despite winning, the Chinese pulled back to their start lines without annexing any new territory.

    Brazil are collapsing more like the Pakistanis collapsed in December 1971 :)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    That was arguably the best goal of the lot.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Charles said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @bigjohnowls
    Perhaps they are inadvertently starting to annoy people?

    "Fury over Michael Gove's 'hypocritical' £5m architect contract "
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/fury-over-michael-goves-hypocritical-5m-architect-contract-9593091.html

    That article includes the best abuse of statistics I have ever seen:

    Each worker will have around 11.25m² of workspace which compares to around 6m² per pupil in a typical new school.

    Do they think, possibly, just possibly, having all the civil servants sitting in a single room at rows of desks might not be the most efficient way to run a department?
    Or that adults are larger than children and require more space.

    Although to be honest, I never attended a school where the pupils sat in rows of desks.It was generally groups of tables.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    PB's Neil is Germany at the moment.

    I do worry he will get caught up in the moment and drink lots.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    HYUFD said:

    Seems good news for Dave may have come earlier than expected - Britain will be able to claw back powers from Brussels - Juncker
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10955145/David-Cameron-will-be-able-to-reform-relationship-with-EU-says-Jean-Claude-Juncker.html

    Nice to see the British press finally reporting what's in his manifesto.

    That said, there are no specifics, since the UK still won't say what they want, and the Commission was never going to be the veto point here.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    Unwind from the Juncker stuff, and I'm going to say the paedophile story and headlines aren't helping the government.

    You may be right, and the government may have scored another own goal in choosing Elizabeth Butler-Sloss to head the enquiry, given her brother was Attorney General at the time of some of these events.
    Only in the tin foil community. Butler-Sloss was head (I think) of the Family Bench and simply the best and most experienced judge that the country has in these matters. Michael Havers died 25 years ago (appointing him Lord Chancellor knowing he had terminal cancer was a great kindness that Thatcher did him). There is no conflict, and Butler-Sloss is far too good and experienced a judge to allow it to colour her judgement.

    But I've always had a soft spot for her - ever since when I was at school, I heard her, completely straight-faced, give the most explicit lecture on sexual etiquette to a room full of teenage boys that you can possible imagine!
    It is a stupid appointment because if she clears the government and all its ministers, many people will simply not believe her.
    It has to be said that to an extent that would be the case regardless of who undertakes it if that is the outcome, however justifiably it might be.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Good week for Lab in the Polls. Getting tempting the more than 9/4 on Betfair on Lab Maj.

    Will resist for now and stick with my Lab most seats balls deep bets. But will be interesting to see Prof Fishers next results

    Good week for Lab in the Polls. Getting tempting the more than 9/4 on Betfair on Lab Maj.

    Will resist for now and stick with my Lab most seats balls deep bets. But will be interesting to see Prof Fishers next results

    The value seems to be in the Labour seat bands. Shadsy has 8:1 on 350-376 for example.

    It looks like Jacks ARSE will be getting a Brazilian!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    edited July 2014
    EdinTokyo It doesn't matter, Dave will claim any clawback of powers as a victory and take it to the polls. I agree, Juncker put it in his manifesto, the only candidate to do so, the press reporting of him was abysmal
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Great ready for the greatest comeback since Lazarus
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited July 2014
    TSE got there first.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,116
    Brazil get won back for 7-1
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,116
    Full time - Germany humiliate Brazil 7-1!

    7-1!!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,813
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    Unwind from the Juncker stuff, and I'm going to say the paedophile story and headlines aren't helping the government.

    You may be right, and the government may have scored another own goal in choosing Elizabeth Butler-Sloss to head the enquiry, given her brother was Attorney General at the time of some of these events.
    Only in the tin foil community. Butler-Sloss was head (I think) of the Family Bench and simply the best and most experienced judge that the country has in these matters. Michael Havers died 25 years ago (appointing him Lord Chancellor knowing he had terminal cancer was a great kindness that Thatcher did him). There is no conflict, and Butler-Sloss is far too good and experienced a judge to allow it to colour her judgement.

    But I've always had a soft spot for her - ever since when I was at school, I heard her, completely straight-faced, give the most explicit lecture on sexual etiquette to a room full of teenage boys that you can possible imagine!
    I take it that's the same tinfoil community that has been alleging a paedophile conspiracy in Westminster (often at great personal cost) for the past 30 years, and been generally ignored.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Darn - one goal away from winning a 10/1 bet on more than 8.5 goals.

    Well played Germany.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Smarmeron said:

    @Charles
    Dunno what the space has to do with it. It is the architects fees I think would upset most, given him complaining about architects for schools?

    It all depends where you start. In the internationally famous (is it actually a UNESCO World Heritage site?) Whitehall Estate, in complex listed buildings, you are going to have much more significant design challenges than you will in developing a new school
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @bigjohnowls
    Perhaps they are inadvertently starting to annoy people?

    "Fury over Michael Gove's 'hypocritical' £5m architect contract "
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/fury-over-michael-goves-hypocritical-5m-architect-contract-9593091.html

    That article includes the best abuse of statistics I have ever seen:

    Each worker will have around 11.25m² of workspace which compares to around 6m² per pupil in a typical new school.

    Do they think, possibly, just possibly, having all the civil servants sitting in a single room at rows of desks might not be the most efficient way to run a department?
    Or that adults are larger than children and require more space.

    Although to be honest, I never attended a school where the pupils sat in rows of desks.It was generally groups of tables.
    May be I'm older than you, but when I was a school 20 years ago it was rows of desks.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    edited July 2014
    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @bigjohnowls
    Perhaps they are inadvertently starting to annoy people?

    "Fury over Michael Gove's 'hypocritical' £5m architect contract "
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/fury-over-michael-goves-hypocritical-5m-architect-contract-9593091.html

    That article includes the best abuse of statistics I have ever seen:

    Each worker will have around 11.25m² of workspace which compares to around 6m² per pupil in a typical new school.

    Do they think, possibly, just possibly, having all the civil servants sitting in a single room at rows of desks might not be the most efficient way to run a department?
    Or that adults are larger than children and require more space.

    Although to be honest, I never attended a school where the pupils sat in rows of desks.It was generally groups of tables.
    May be I'm older than you, but when I was a school 20 years ago it was rows of desks.
    Well i was in Primary 20 years ago as well - I think it was just because I went to crappy,poorly designed schools which forced a certain structure on the classrooms. You shoved in tables and clustered people round them any way you could.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Joachim Low = Scipio Africanus

    Luis Felipe Scolari = Hannibal
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @toadmeister: Let's play guess @TheSunNewspaper headline. My starter for 10: "Brazilians Waxed"
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Calm down, chaps (it is mainly chaps, I think). The polls haven't changed for weeks. Read this book:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fooled_by_Randomness

    Or, better still, take SeanT's approach.

    On topic: Another spiffing selection by TSE. Atul Hatwal at no. 4 is spot-on, isn't he? As is the Economist chap at number 7.

    As for Harriet getting frisky, no, I don't know either.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    From the Guardian footie blog:

    "It's a measure of how downright German the Germans are that Manuel Neuer and his defenders were absolutely furious with each other for allowing Brazil to score that late goal."

    It says that towards the end the Brazilian fans started applauding the Germans, simply because their play was so remarkable. Nice hostly sporting touch.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    TSE no Low = Arminius; Luis Felipe Scolari = Publius Quinctillius Varus.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    Unwind from the Juncker stuff, and I'm going to say the paedophile story and headlines aren't helping the government.

    You may be right, and the government may have scored another own goal in choosing Elizabeth Butler-Sloss to head the enquiry, given her brother was Attorney General at the time of some of these events.
    Only in the tin foil community. Butler-Sloss was head (I think) of the Family Bench and simply the best and most experienced judge that the country has in these matters. Michael Havers died 25 years ago (appointing him Lord Chancellor knowing he had terminal cancer was a great kindness that Thatcher did him). There is no conflict, and Butler-Sloss is far too good and experienced a judge to allow it to colour her judgement.

    But I've always had a soft spot for her - ever since when I was at school, I heard her, completely straight-faced, give the most explicit lecture on sexual etiquette to a room full of teenage boys that you can possible imagine!
    I take it that's the same tinfoil community that has been alleging a paedophile conspiracy in Westminster (often at great personal cost) for the past 30 years, and been generally ignored.
    No, it's the tinfoil community that insist that a connection will over-rule reputation and judgement. Without his name, a man is nothing.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    isam said:

    @TSE

    Re the Enoch comment, I think he only meant it in the same way that it would seem, at the moment, very strange to think of a white man as Pakistani.. maybe in 50 years time if there is mass immigration to Pakistan from Northern Europe it will seem racist in hindsight, but at the moment, if a Pakistani said it, I wouldn't feel like he was having a go at me

    I'll dig out the full quote, but Enoch was a racist, and wrong on that, and many other things.

    He was talking about the principle, which is what is currently espoused by Nick Griffin "If I were born in a barn, that doesn't make me a horse"
    Indeed. It's not like there weren't non-whites who already had British passports and identified with this country in the 1960s.
    There was a piece by Peter Oborne a few years ago, to tie in with his book on the D'Oliveria affair, said that it was the timing of the D'Oliveria affair is what damaged Enoch more than anything else.

    Who would have thought that a Cape Coloured help changed the world, and this country, so much.
    I think even without D'Oliveria acceptance would have happened. Britishness is not something that exists at a genetic level. It is something that is held in our minds. It's a set of common customs, dispositions and allegiances that unites us. You can have that whether your descent is from the Jutes, the Normans, the Igbo or the Sindhis.
    When ever I am abroad I can recognise a fellow British just by looking at him.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    From the Guardian footie blog:

    "It's a measure of how downright German the Germans are that Manuel Neuer and his defenders were absolutely furious with each other for allowing Brazil to score that late goal."

    It says that towards the end the Brazilian fans started applauding the Germans, simply because their play was so remarkable. Nice hostly sporting touch.

    I am split now. I wanted the Netherlands to win the final and I think in the end I will still be hoping for that result but a big part of me wants Germany to win now because after that performance tonight they definitely deserve it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @bigjohnowls
    Perhaps they are inadvertently starting to annoy people?

    "Fury over Michael Gove's 'hypocritical' £5m architect contract "
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/fury-over-michael-goves-hypocritical-5m-architect-contract-9593091.html

    That article includes the best abuse of statistics I have ever seen:

    Each worker will have around 11.25m² of workspace which compares to around 6m² per pupil in a typical new school.

    Do they think, possibly, just possibly, having all the civil servants sitting in a single room at rows of desks might not be the most efficient way to run a department?
    Or that adults are larger than children and require more space.

    Although to be honest, I never attended a school where the pupils sat in rows of desks.It was generally groups of tables.
    May be I'm older than you, but when I was a school 20 years ago it was rows of desks.
    Well i was in Primary 20 years ago as well - I think it was just because I went to crappy,poorly designed schools which forced a certain structure on the classrooms. You shoved in tables and clustered people round them any way you could.
    Nah, not that difficult to build a box.

    More likely is that there were too many pupils in the classes.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited July 2014
    The only disappointment over that result was that it wasn't broadcast on ITV, just so I could see Adrian Chiles face. He's been riding the Germans' back from Day 1.

    Stick that up yer arse you fat f**k.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    DavidL said:

    Ok, my theory on why the polls are widening.

    Tories know if they take a lead in the polls, that doesn't help Better Together in the North Britain plebiscite.

    The Tories are Unionists (it's in the party name), so we're taking one for the Union between now and September the 19th.

    For me it has to be the paedophile stuff. The public is disgusted and the government is getting the blame. I can't think of anything else strong enough for this.

    May well be right but an alternative way to make sense of this would be: Labour share declined leading up to the Euros - combination of voters not liking their position on foreigners and UKIP targetting their voters - then moved back to normal. Trend temporarily bucked by Cameron Standing Up For Britain over Juncker. which always seems to produce a short-lived polling bounce.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    Unwind from the Juncker stuff, and I'm going to say the paedophile story and headlines aren't helping the government.

    You may be right, and the government may have scored another own goal in choosing Elizabeth Butler-Sloss to head the enquiry, given her brother was Attorney General at the time of some of these events.
    Only in the tin foil community. Butler-Sloss was head (I think) of the Family Bench and simply the best and most experienced judge that the country has in these matters. Michael Havers died 25 years ago (appointing him Lord Chancellor knowing he had terminal cancer was a great kindness that Thatcher did him). There is no conflict, and Butler-Sloss is far too good and experienced a judge to allow it to colour her judgement.

    But I've always had a soft spot for her - ever since when I was at school, I heard her, completely straight-faced, give the most explicit lecture on sexual etiquette to a room full of teenage boys that you can possible imagine!
    I take it that's the same tinfoil community that has been alleging a paedophile conspiracy in Westminster (often at great personal cost) for the past 30 years, and been generally ignored.
    It may well be that there was no paedo ring in Westminster 30 years ago. I expect those tinfoil hats to remain on though. What contrary evidence is ever believed by the convinced conspiracy true believer?
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    Unwind from the Juncker stuff, and I'm going to say the paedophile story and headlines aren't helping the government.

    You may be right, and the government may have scored another own goal in choosing Elizabeth Butler-Sloss to head the enquiry, given her brother was Attorney General at the time of some of these events.
    Only in the tin foil community. Butler-Sloss was head (I think) of the Family Bench and simply the best and most experienced judge that the country has in these matters. Michael Havers died 25 years ago (appointing him Lord Chancellor knowing he had terminal cancer was a great kindness that Thatcher did him). There is no conflict, and Butler-Sloss is far too good and experienced a judge to allow it to colour her judgement.

    But I've always had a soft spot for her - ever since when I was at school, I heard her, completely straight-faced, give the most explicit lecture on sexual etiquette to a room full of teenage boys that you can possible imagine!
    I take it that's the same tinfoil community that has been alleging a paedophile conspiracy in Westminster (often at great personal cost) for the past 30 years, and been generally ignored.
    That's saved us a fortune, no need for the inquiry, all claims are true, job, jobbed.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @ScottishFA: Just a quick reminder that our first #EURO2016 qualifier is vs #GER in Dortmund in September. Good. #naeborra
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Tories are Brazil Fawlty tonight
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Scott_P said:

    @toadmeister: Let's play guess @TheSunNewspaper headline. My starter for 10: "Brazilians Waxed"

    Do you ever do your own jokes it just retweet those from other people?
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    isam said:

    @TSE

    Re the Enoch comment, I think he only meant it in the same way that it would seem, at the moment, very strange to think of a white man as Pakistani.. maybe in 50 years time if there is mass immigration to Pakistan from Northern Europe it will seem racist in hindsight, but at the moment, if a Pakistani said it, I wouldn't feel like he was having a go at me

    I'll dig out the full quote, but Enoch was a racist, and wrong on that, and many other things.

    He was talking about the principle, which is what is currently espoused by Nick Griffin "If I were born in a barn, that doesn't make me a horse"
    Jus Sanguinis is the how most advanced countries determine citizenship, where you are born, jus solo, has nothing to do with your nationality. Educate yourself.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    BobaFett said:

    Scott_P said:

    @toadmeister: Let's play guess @TheSunNewspaper headline. My starter for 10: "Brazilians Waxed"

    Do you ever do your own jokes it just retweet those from other people?
    Be a good scout and tell us one of yours.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Scott_P said:

    @ScottishFA: Just a quick reminder that our first #EURO2016 qualifier is vs #GER in Dortmund in September. Good. #naeborra

    That will need to be a night behind the sofa I think although I do recall us beating world champions before in 1967.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    Unwind from the Juncker stuff, and I'm going to say the paedophile story and headlines aren't helping the government.

    You may be right, and the government may have scored another own goal in choosing Elizabeth Butler-Sloss to head the enquiry, given her brother was Attorney General at the time of some of these events.
    Only in the tin foil community. Butler-Sloss was head (I think) of the Family Bench and simply the best and most experienced judge that the country has in these matters. Michael Havers died 25 years ago (appointing him Lord Chancellor knowing he had terminal cancer was a great kindness that Thatcher did him). There is no conflict, and Butler-Sloss is far too good and experienced a judge to allow it to colour her judgement.

    But I've always had a soft spot for her - ever since when I was at school, I heard her, completely straight-faced, give the most explicit lecture on sexual etiquette to a room full of teenage boys that you can possible imagine!
    I take it that's the same tinfoil community that has been alleging a paedophile conspiracy in Westminster (often at great personal cost) for the past 30 years, and been generally ignored.
    It may well be that there was no paedo ring in Westminster 30 years ago. I expect those tinfoil hats to remain on though. What contrary evidence is ever believed by the convinced conspiracy true believer?
    That is why it is so stupid to appoint the one judge whose brother was not just in the Cabinet but was Attorney General. It looks like a cover-up already, even before anyone has been cleared.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    edited July 2014

    Nah, not that difficult to build a box.

    More likely is that there were too many pupils in the classes.

    I'd have thought so as well, but I actually chanced to see the old school's figures the other day - at a time when other schools in the area are fit to bursting, my old one is getting 20-25 a year despite a PAN of 45, which seems similar as far as I can recall in terms of numbers. It might just be that we're all weird down in the SW.


    When ever I am abroad I can recognise a fellow British just by looking at him.

    Really? Better than me, I cannot tell a fellow British just by looking at them in Britain, although sheer numbers means it is safe to assume most people are.

    From the Guardian footie blog:

    "It's a measure of how downright German the Germans are that Manuel Neuer and his defenders were absolutely furious with each other for allowing Brazil to score that late goal."

    It says that towards the end the Brazilian fans started applauding the Germans, simply because their play was so remarkable. Nice hostly sporting touch.

    Same thing happened in Rocky IV. Sometimes you just have to hold you hand up and acknowledge things as they are.

    Calm down, chaps (it is mainly chaps, I think). The polls haven't changed for weeks.

    Maybe so, but it still looks crap for the Tories, and being calm about it will become less and less of an option as things continue to look crap for them. I think their slight optimism of the past few months will look a distant dream before too long,as the nature of the fight still before them sinks in.

    Night all.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    When I started at secondary school in the 90s they had tables in every classroom. But within a couple of years it had been changed back to rows of desks, mainly because the pupils were so fed up with getting neck-ache from craning around to see the teacher.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2014

    That is why it is so stupid to appoint the one judge whose brother was not just in the Cabinet but was Attorney General. It looks like a cover-up already, even before anyone has been cleared.

    For heaven's sake - anyone who thinks Dame Butler-Sloss is going to be part of a cover-up is utterly beyond redemption.

    Remarkable that at 80 she is able and willing to take on this huge task. Bravo to her!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    That is why it is so stupid to appoint the one judge whose brother was not just in the Cabinet but was Attorney General. It looks like a cover-up already, even before anyone has been cleared.

    For heaven's sake - anyone who thinks Dame Butler-Sloss is going to be part of a cover-up is utterly beyond redemption.

    Remarkable that at 81 she is able and willing to take on this huge task. Bravo to her!
    Beyond redemption maybe but they've all got the vote.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    At what point do the Cameroons and the modernisers admit defeat? Gay marriage, courting the Guardian, lists for MPs, all it has led to is failure to secure a majority and splitting the right against weaker opponents than William Hague touting a series of bankrupt ideas. Roll on UKIP.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    BobaFett said:

    Dan Hodges effect? DH wrong 100% of the time

    Shush. The nightmare scenario is that Hodges changes his mind and starts calling it a Labour win.
    King Dan will compare Brazil to Miliband in his next article and say Labours seven point lead is a disaster for Ed Miliband.....Nailed on!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Brazilians mullered.

    Conservative majority still available to lay at 3.9 btw...
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    AndyJS said:

    When I started at secondary school in the 90s they had tables in every classroom. But within a couple of years it had been changed back to rows of desks, mainly because the pupils were so fed up with getting neck-ache from craning around to see the teacher.

    FWIW when I went they'd compromised and gone with either tables of two, or rows of tables. All facing the teacher but still conducive to group work.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Beyond redemption maybe but they've all got the vote.

    They've got the vote anyway. If they are so utterly out with the fairies as to think even Dame Elizabeth is part of some conspiracy, and to allow that to influence their vote, then there is nothing that can be done for them. We'll just have to write it off as one of those things.

    However, I very much doubt that this will be the case.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    FalseFlag said:

    At what point do the Cameroons and the modernisers admit defeat? Gay marriage, courting the Guardian, lists for MPs, all it has led to is failure to secure a majority and splitting the right against weaker opponents than William Hague touting a series of bankrupt ideas. Roll on UKIP.

    SSHHHH....PB Hodges still holding out for a crossover type swingback with added Cameroon surge. King Dan said it's true, so it must be.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Sweet Jesus did Mourinho really sell David Luiz to PSG for £50 million ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    That's the best sale since Liverpool shipped Torres off to errm Chelsea for £50m.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    That is why it is so stupid to appoint the one judge whose brother was not just in the Cabinet but was Attorney General. It looks like a cover-up already, even before anyone has been cleared.

    For heaven's sake - anyone who thinks Dame Butler-Sloss is going to be part of a cover-up is utterly beyond redemption.

    Remarkable that at 80 she is able and willing to take on this huge task. Bravo to her!
    Mr Nabavi you know as well as I that some people want all enquiries run and stacked with marsupials. Even if the government had tracked down the Archangel Gabriel and got him to do the job there'd have been howls of cover up.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Pulpstar said:

    Sweet Jesus did Mourinho really sell David Luiz to PSG for £50 million ?

    Best deal for the seller since Torres.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2014
    Con Maj at 3.85 is much better value than Lab Maj at 3.35, IMO. I can see a path to the former, albeit a difficult one, but the latter looks, though not out of reach, dependent on some major opinion-changing shifts.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    In your face Nate Silver.

    IN YOUR FACE NATE SILVER

    Plus, I also tipped Muller as FGS.

    Kerching.

    Nate Silver's reliance on Brazil's home advantage -- no defeats since 1975 -- always looked odd because of course they were completely different players who didn't lose for four decades.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 5s

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead jumps four points to seven: CON 31%, LAB 38%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

    So may be there is something real going on - that's 3 now in that zone.

    But what?
    Unwind from the Juncker stuff, and I'm going to say the paedophile story and headlines aren't helping the government.

    You may be right, and the government may have scored another own goal in choosing Elizabeth Butler-Sloss to head the enquiry, given her brother was Attorney General at the time of some of these events.
    Only in the tin foil community. Butler-Sloss was head (I think) of the Family Bench and simply the best and most experienced judge that the country has in these matters. Michael Havers died 25 years ago (appointing him Lord Chancellor knowing he had terminal cancer was a great kindness that Thatcher did him). There is no conflict, and Butler-Sloss is far too good and experienced a judge to allow it to colour her judgement.

    But I've always had a soft spot for her - ever since when I was at school, I heard her, completely straight-faced, give the most explicit lecture on sexual etiquette to a room full of teenage boys that you can possible imagine!
    I take it that's the same tinfoil community that has been alleging a paedophile conspiracy in Westminster (often at great personal cost) for the past 30 years, and been generally ignored.
    It may well be that there was no paedo ring in Westminster 30 years ago. I expect those tinfoil hats to remain on though. What contrary evidence is ever believed by the convinced conspiracy true believer?
    That is why it is so stupid to appoint the one judge whose brother was not just in the Cabinet but was Attorney General. It looks like a cover-up already, even before anyone has been cleared.
    Who else would you suggest:

    - Probably needs to be a judge
    - Needs to have Family Division experience, and arguably needs to be the most senior member of that Division
    - James Munby doesn't have time. Nick Wall is sick. Mark Potter is possible, but is now back in private practice, so might not want to spend 2 years at government rates (plus he also gave a major judgement *against* same sex marriage a while ago). Stephen Brown is 90

    Essentially, if you want to go for a former President of the Family Division there isn't any choice.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Nate Silver evaluated Brazil's chances to win this at 65%.

    Like putting Mad Moose up against Frankel in a 1 mile sprint.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    ToryJim said:

    Mr Nabavi you know as well as I that some people want all enquiries run and stacked with marsupials. Even if the government had tracked down the Archangel Gabriel and got him to do the job there'd have been howls of cover up.

    Of course. I mean, haven't you seen the Twitter rumours about the Archangel Gabriel?
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @ScottishFA: Just a quick reminder that our first #EURO2016 qualifier is vs #GER in Dortmund in September. Good. #naeborra

    That will need to be a night behind the sofa I think although I do recall us beating world champions before in 1967.

    Ha! Elegantly done David :)
This discussion has been closed.