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  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem the Tories have is the Pepsi Coke dilemma, if you have a candidate who wants to get out of the EU + supports grammar schools, ie basically UKIP policies, why would you not vote for the real thing rather than UKIP lite

    Because the 'real thing' is the one which has a chance of delivering.
    The real things leader will vote to stay in the EU and refuses to open more Grammar schools though.
    The leader may vote to stay in the EU, but so what? There will be many others who will vote differently and at last the kippers will have their EU referendum.

    MacKinlay can deliver, while Farage can only mouth off.

    Personally, I would vote for neither BOO'er.
    MacKinlay can deliver grammar schools?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Citing Bernadette Devlin is not really relevant to Margate as I'm sure you're aware.

    It's perfectly relevant to your point that the Labour candidate's age was a bar in itself to being an effective MP.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    TGOHF said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10950335/SNPs-retribution-threat-to-pro-UK-Scottish-firms.html

    Business leaders have been threatened with “retribution” by the SNP if they speak out against Scottish independence, it will be claimed on Monday.
    Nineteen firms said they were aware of threats of “retribution down the track” for those who support the Union. The intimidation is alleged to have come from the highest levels of the SNP, including from the office of Alex Salmond, the First Minister.


    On Sunday it emerged that a major whisky distiller, William Grant and Sons, had donated a six-figure sum to the Better Together campaign.

    While I'm a unionist, I'm extremely uncomfortable with corporations donating money to either side of this campaign. Or, for that matter, large sums from very rich individuals.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    GeoffM said:

    Why no further statements from him ?

    He died in 1995
    LOL
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem the Tories have is the Pepsi Coke dilemma, if you have a candidate who wants to get out of the EU + supports grammar schools, ie basically UKIP policies, why would you not vote for the real thing rather than UKIP lite

    Because the 'real thing' is the one which has a chance of delivering.
    The real things leader will vote to stay in the EU and refuses to open more Grammar schools though.
    All Farage would do is let in labour - as evidenced by any victory in Thanet S. Labour will not return grammars.
    Indeed no one will because the infrastructure does not exist to create them (where would the teachers come from, never mind the school buildings). In the unlikely event of a UKIP govt - they would not recreate grammars - the locals would not want them anyway (by definition it labels non grammars inferior) and he could not impose them.
    Tories do not force Kent to scrap their Grammars. Thats down to local opinion. Labour will scrap free schools.
    The tories have the offer of a referendum, what the leaders think is not the question - its the opportunity of a vote.

    On grammars - I am not against them particularly but certainly in Kent the selection process seems vague (with headteachers having a say and then an appeals process) and they advertise for pupils who may have narrowly failed the criteria. Where is the excellence there? Like many of the things Farage says when you look at it closely it does not stack up.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem the Tories have is the Pepsi Coke dilemma, if you have a candidate who wants to get out of the EU + supports grammar schools, ie basically UKIP policies, why would you not vote for the real thing rather than UKIP lite

    Because the 'real thing' is the one which has a chance of delivering.
    The real things leader will vote to stay in the EU and refuses to open more Grammar schools though.
    The leader may vote to stay in the EU, but so what? There will be many others who will vote differently and at last the kippers will have their EU referendum.

    MacKinlay can deliver, while Farage can only mouth off.

    Personally, I would vote for neither BOO'er.
    MacKinlay can deliver grammar schools?
    He doesn't need to.

    Thanet is stuffed full of them.

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    MrJones said:

    Mr Jones - so what if this dossier disappeared? It may of course be of great importance - but on the other hand it may not. The existence of the dossier and its delivery were not secret. Presumably Dickens knew what was in it and the likelihood of it being meaningful. Why only now do we start asking questions and questions on the basis that no one knew of the events in question. Why no further statements from him ?
    What we have are two labour MPs, one a known stirrer now forced to move on after failing to 'get' Brookes. I for one see signs of a pattern.

    Perhaps it's something to do with the recent revelation that the political class covered up for Cyril Smith for decades, the ongoing investigation into Elm Tree guest house, it coming out in relation to the north wales children's homes that Morrison had been protected by the political class, the unasked questions from Islington, Channel Islands, Dolphin Square etc, the Savile case dragging up old memories leading to lots of people coming forward with allegations they didn't think would ever be honestly investigated etc.

    Or in a nutshell the internet making it harder for the political class to bury this stuff like they have done since Boothby-Driberg.


    Spot on.

    Anyone questioning why this is coming up now must be living in a cave.
    Yup. The downside to the internet angle is the speculating can get a bit wild but the good part is the known facts are much more widely known than they used to be. In particular people who might have known a lot about one thing in one place didn't necessarily know about x, y and z happening in other places whereas now they do.


  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Spoof account, but real front page of the mirror

    I'll say it again, this paedo thing could ruin the Westminster establishment

    Tony Blair (@T0nyBlair)
    06/07/2014 22:49
    #tomorrowspaperstoday WHAT NOW???
    @georgegalloway @tom_watson #PaedoDossier #paedobritain pic.twitter.com/agLzUBELgG
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    another Bercow embarrassment picture in tomorrows papers pf him sleeping in royal box at wimbledon
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    Monday's Independent - "Westminster child abuse dossier: top prosecutor was also given copy"
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    GeoffM said:

    Why no further statements from him ?

    He died in 1995
    I'm going to give you that one on points ;-)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    isam said:

    Spoof account, but real front page of the mirror

    I'll say it again, this paedo thing could ruin the Westminster establishment

    Tony Blair (@T0nyBlair)
    06/07/2014 22:49
    #tomorrowspaperstoday WHAT NOW???
    @georgegalloway @tom_watson #PaedoDossier #paedobritain pic.twitter.com/agLzUBELgG

    What I wont be hearing / reading about tomorrow on the BBC....
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem the Tories have is the Pepsi Coke dilemma, if you have a candidate who wants to get out of the EU + supports grammar schools, ie basically UKIP policies, why would you not vote for the real thing rather than UKIP lite

    Because the 'real thing' is the one which has a chance of delivering.
    The real things leader will vote to stay in the EU and refuses to open more Grammar schools though.
    All Farage would do is let in labour - as evidenced by any victory in Thanet S. Labour will not return grammars.
    Indeed no one will because the infrastructure does not exist to create them (where would the teachers come from, never mind the school buildings). In the unlikely event of a UKIP govt - they would not recreate grammars - the locals would not want them anyway (by definition it labels non grammars inferior) and he could not impose them.
    Tories do not force Kent to scrap their Grammars. Thats down to local opinion. Labour will scrap free schools.
    The tories have the offer of a referendum, what the leaders think is not the question - its the opportunity of a vote.

    On grammars - I am not against them particularly but certainly in Kent the selection process seems vague (with headteachers having a say and then an appeals process) and they advertise for pupils who may have narrowly failed the criteria. Where is the excellence there? Like many of the things Farage says when you look at it closely it does not stack up.

    Sad to see such negativity from a Conservative

    Listen to the man who knew best all along

    http://youtu.be/A0t3BTAF0ns
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    That EU ruling came at a convenient time.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    MODS - You should delete the libellous comment just made by Socrates
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Socrates said:

    TGOHF said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10950335/SNPs-retribution-threat-to-pro-UK-Scottish-firms.html

    Business leaders have been threatened with “retribution” by the SNP if they speak out against Scottish independence, it will be claimed on Monday.
    Nineteen firms said they were aware of threats of “retribution down the track” for those who support the Union. The intimidation is alleged to have come from the highest levels of the SNP, including from the office of Alex Salmond, the First Minister.


    On Sunday it emerged that a major whisky distiller, William Grant and Sons, had donated a six-figure sum to the Better Together campaign.

    While I'm a unionist, I'm extremely uncomfortable with corporations donating money to either side of this campaign. Or, for that matter, large sums from very rich individuals.
    William Grant and Sons is a family company. Why shouldn't the Gordons, proud Scotsmen and women, put their money where their mouths are?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Plato said:

    GeoffM said:

    Why no further statements from him ?

    He died in 1995
    LOL
    Good to see you back.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2014
    MrJones said:

    MrJones said:

    Mr Jones - so what if this dossier disappeared? It may of course be of great importance - but on the other hand it may not. The existence of the dossier and its delivery were not secret. Presumably Dickens knew what was in it and the likelihood of it being meaningful. Why only now do we start asking questions and questions on the basis that no one knew of the events in question. Why no further statements from him ?
    What we have are two labour MPs, one a known stirrer now forced to move on after failing to 'get' Brookes. I for one see signs of a pattern.

    Perhaps it's something to do with the recent revelation that the political class covered up for Cyril Smith for decades, the ongoing investigation into Elm Tree guest house, it coming out in relation to the north wales children's homes that Morrison had been protected by the political class, the unasked questions from Islington, Channel Islands, Dolphin Square etc, the Savile case dragging up old memories leading to lots of people coming forward with allegations they didn't think would ever be honestly investigated etc.

    Or in a nutshell the internet making it harder for the political class to bury this stuff like they have done since Boothby-Driberg.


    Spot on.

    Anyone questioning why this is coming up now must be living in a cave.
    Yup. The downside to the internet angle is the speculating can get a bit wild but the good part is the known facts are much more widely known than they used to be. In particular people who might have known a lot about one thing in one place didn't necessarily know about x, y and z happening in other places whereas now they do.


    All the allegations against prominent parliamentary individuals have been known for years and were published in full in the early nineties.

    The problem though with the original publication is that its main allegation was that Lord MacAlpine was at the centre of the alleged paedophile ring. This allegation was made on the basis of evidence given and identification made by a single witness.

    In spite of the fact the a judicial inquiry casted doubt on the reliability of the said witness, it was the same 'evidence' which the BBC relied on in their ill-fated Newsnight programme. This led to the witness accepting he had made a mistaken identification and statement, an apology by the BBC and substantial damages being paid to Lord MacAlpine.

    It can be very dangerous and costly to attempt to 'out' suspects in such cases. This matter is very much better left to the police to investigate.

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    AveryLP said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem the Tories have is the Pepsi Coke dilemma, if you have a candidate who wants to get out of the EU + supports grammar schools, ie basically UKIP policies, why would you not vote for the real thing rather than UKIP lite

    Because the 'real thing' is the one which has a chance of delivering.
    The real things leader will vote to stay in the EU and refuses to open more Grammar schools though.
    The leader may vote to stay in the EU, but so what? There will be many others who will vote differently and at last the kippers will have their EU referendum.

    MacKinlay can deliver, while Farage can only mouth off.

    Personally, I would vote for neither BOO'er.
    MacKinlay can deliver grammar schools?
    He doesn't need to.

    Thanet is stuffed full of them.

    Thats a problem - there are too many.
    'In west Kent, grammar schools are over-subscribed whereas in Thanet there are 90 more places than there are selective children. There are not enough selective children to fill those places.'
    http://www.yourcanterbury.co.uk/news/falling_grammar_results_are_the_selectives_slipping_1_3262438

    I'm not against grammars, I went to one, but lets not be fooled that they or the notion are perfect. Personally I think what is needed is plain good education. The tories seem committed to that. Labour I'm convinced will destroy good education. Farage seems to think that to just create a few grammars is what education policy is all about. He is wooly on that like everything.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Richard_Nabavi

    Duck Duck Go, seems to have no trouble with links, and can a link be libelous?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,815


    The man you are in nduiscussion with claims to be a scottish ex conservative UKIP convert. For some reason I doubt it.

    I most certainly don't -I'm English! Came up here to do my marketing post grad. I'm originally from West Sussex.

    Then I suggest you get out more. Edinburgh has some nice pubs. A pint in one of them is better than spreading rubbish about Bilderberg.
    Your defence of your views there is really putting the cart before the horse.
    It's the interweb that spawned and fed its population of tin foil hat, holgraphic rocket blew up the WTC, fantasists who then need to create the secret scandals that they then propagate as truth. They have not 'discovered' anything at all.
    I get out plenty thank you. I have also spread no 'rubbish', I have merely stated that it exists and it meets. Which is a matter of public record. Therein lying the problem with your crass and really rather rude dismissal of other people's views -they are very often correct.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited July 2014
    I have to say I am very uncomfortable about the fact the press now are openly reporting names of people (or giving again the sort of information that was given out with the Lord MacAlpine business) under investigation for such sensitive matters...it is a very very dangerous road to go down.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    AveryLP said:


    All the allegations against prominent parliamentary individuals have been known for years and were published in full in the early nineties.

    The problem though with the original publication is that its main allegation was that Lord MacAlpine was at the centre of the alleged paedophile ring. This allegation was made on the basis of evidence given and identification made by a single witness.

    In spite of the fact the a judicial inquiry casted doubt on the reliability of the said witness, it was the same 'evidence' which the BBC relied on in their ill-fated Newsnight programme. This led to the witness accepting he had made a mistaken identification and statement, an apology by the BBC and substantial damages being paid to Lord MacAlpine.

    It can be very dangerous and costly to attempt to 'out' suspects in such cases. This matter is very much better left to the police to investigate.

    I'd say it's been very much not better left to the police ever since the political class stitched them up over Boothby-Driberg.

    On the other hand it is very important for people to not get too carried away especially in situations where distracting chaff is very likely to be fired off to lead people down the wrong rabbit hole.

    The main thing is for the known stuff to be as widely known as possible.



  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @FrancisUrquhart

    The problem is that forgotten articles in the papers over the years can easily be found, after that, it becomes a matter of careful wording.
    Not pleasant, but the free press is a two edged sword.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    Flightpath Grammars in Kent generally select the top 25% with a few 'super selectives' like Judd and Skinners selecting the top 10%. Personally I think parents should be able to ballot to open new grammars as well as close them, even Finland selects at 16. As for teachers, grammar schools as academic schools with generally motivated and ambitious pupils would attract dozens of applicants, they certainly did not have problems getting teachers in the fifties and sixties when selection was universal
  • PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 665
    edited July 2014
    I will stress again, anyone commenting upon the political paedophile stories, must provide a link from a reputable UK news organisation.

    Anyone not adhering to this, will find their ability to instantly publish revoked.

    PB operates on a safety first basis, any comments we're not sure about, get deleted until we've properly reviewed it, as the Lord McAlpine story showed, we're right to exercise caution, this will lead to a high number of comments being deleted than normal.

    PB is not monitored 24/7, so please do not abuse your privileges, if you're not sure if the comment is problematic, don't post it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,815
    edited July 2014
    Socrates said:



    I have no brief to defend NSNBC or its reporting. I would say I have seen very similar leaps made in the British press, though those would usually use speech marks within the headline. However, my point is and has always been that we must judge things on their content. I read something, and decide if it convinces me or not. I don't decide if I'm convinced or not before reading. That's the difference.

    So what is your source that Ukraine has been shelling civilian area, causing mass casualties?

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/10/us-ukraine-crisis-slaviansk-idUSKBN0EL1OR20140610

    Reuters 'credible' enough for you?

    What do you think this woman is doing -having Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen in to remodel?
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00704/154671755__704446c.jpg

    Here's an RT video -hopefully you don't think those dastardly Russians created a wrecked village and paid people to act devastated:

    http://rt.com/news/170104-ukraine-lugansk-shelling-airstrike/
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564

    I have to say I am very uncomfortable about the fact the press now are openly reporting names of people (or giving again the sort of information that was given out with the Lord MacAlpine business) under investigation for such sensitive matters...it is a very very dangerous road to go down.

    Agreed. I also think that the wild abandon of all restraint with regard to dead people is risky - I'm prepared to believe that there were some scoundrels around who are now dead, but the fact that you can't libel the deceased means that you can dress up any old speculation as fact. The press remains principally about selling papers...

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    ISAM - Mr Powell was a clever conservsative who was led down a sad blind ally by his own cleverness. A shame. He could have offered a lot and his views reflected a valid strata of opinion. On education i think the tories are being quite radical. I am happy with it. Grammars not represent a perfect solution.

    Mr Socrates - I think the UKIP concentration on race was summed up by the candidate who wanted to send Lennie Henry back to Africa. Then there was the candidate who claimed places were being ethnically cleansed and there was the manchester leaflet put out by Woolas' ex agent for UKIP and then... but noh come on Mr Socrates, we know where UKIP have been going.

    Mr Farage himself admitted he was wrong to say that people would not like Romanians living next door, nor did he seem happy to hear foreign languages talked on the tube. UKIP are not tearing up and down the country delving into the niceties of inward investment or the quality and length of cucumbers.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,815

    I have to say I am very uncomfortable about the fact the press now are openly reporting names of people (or giving again the sort of information that was given out with the Lord MacAlpine business) under investigation for such sensitive matters...it is a very very dangerous road to go down.

    Agreed. I also think that the wild abandon of all restraint with regard to dead people is risky - I'm prepared to believe that there were some scoundrels around who are now dead, but the fact that you can't libel the deceased means that you can dress up any old speculation as fact. The press remains principally about selling papers...

    And thank heavens for that. If their job were to make sure the masses behaved themselves and protect the powerful, they would be called a Ministry of Propaganda.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    HYUFD said:

    Flightpath Grammars in Kent generally select the top 25% with a few 'super selectives' like Judd and Skinners selecting the top 10%. Personally I think parents should be able to ballot to open new grammars as well as close them, even Finland selects at 16. As for teachers, grammar schools as academic schools with generally motivated and ambitious pupils would attract dozens of applicants, they certainly did not have problems getting teachers in the fifties and sixties when selection was universal

    Thats right - leaving supposed poor teachers thrown out to go to supposed poor schools... this is meant to be good for general education? As I have posted and linked to some grammars cannot attract people. We have free schools under the tories and this means that good teaching prevails not based on selection.

    In Kent the selection criteria are vague with headmasters picks and appeals. I repeat i am not doctrinally opposed but selection and grammars are not perfect.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Lucky guy - the Reuters link does not demonstrate mass shelling or loss of life. Its clear there is fighting going on, there is no dispute about that. Seperatists are violently with force trying to break up the country.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    HYUFD said:

    ISAM indeed, Cameron is only promising a referendum he has not yet delivered, and Gove has not even allowed a new grammar to open in Sevenoaks to meet demand

    It's my understanding that grammars will be allowed to expand even to the extent of "satellite" campuses but no new ones from scratch.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited July 2014
    Newspaper headlines absolutely full of Westminster Pedo allegations.

    I wonder where this is going...
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564

    I have to say I am very uncomfortable about the fact the press now are openly reporting names of people (or giving again the sort of information that was given out with the Lord MacAlpine business) under investigation for such sensitive matters...it is a very very dangerous road to go down.

    Agreed. I also think that the wild abandon of all restraint with regard to dead people is risky - I'm prepared to believe that there were some scoundrels around who are now dead, but the fact that you can't libel the deceased means that you can dress up any old speculation as fact. The press remains principally about selling papers...

    And thank heavens for that. If their job were to make sure the masses behaved themselves and protect the powerful, they would be called a Ministry of Propaganda.
    Well, there's surely a middle ground between "claim that any old stuff is true so long as it's about someone dead" and "become a Ministry of Propaganda to protect the powerful"? Essentially, I think, I'm arguing for some watered-down protection for the dead - it should be possible to call newspapers to account if they recklessly or maliciously publish stories about people who've died in the last 20 years or so (I don't really care if they libel Ethelred the Unready), perhaps through whatever variant of the PCC is eventually accepted.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    Flightpath What a load of rubbish, poor teachers should be removed wherever they are and helped to find something else, just because grammars are excellent schools which will attract good teachers does not mean good teachers cannot be found in high schools too. Grammars are oversubscribed almost everywhere the link you posted to was about the number passing the entrance exam, and of course there is selection at 13 and 16 too. Free schools can be good, they can also be bad as recent examples have shown, but they do not undermine the need for more academically selective schools, indeed they only enhance the argument for more choice of school, and grammars remain the only state schools to consistently challenge the top independents.

    You cannot get into a grammar without passing an exam, headmaster picks are only to determine which of those who have passed go to which oversubscribed school
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Mr Socrates - I think the UKIP concentration on race was summed up by the candidate who wanted to send Lennie Henry back to Africa. Then there was the candidate who claimed places were being ethnically cleansed and there was the manchester leaflet put out by Woolas' ex agent for UKIP and then... but noh come on Mr Socrates, we know where UKIP have been going.

    Mr Farage himself admitted he was wrong to say that people would not like Romanians living next door, nor did he seem happy to hear foreign languages talked on the tube. UKIP are not tearing up and down the country delving into the niceties of inward investment or the quality and length of cucumbers.

    On those:

    - Lenny Henry guy quit the party before he got kicked out.
    - Farage was asked directly about Romanians and answered the question. This wasn't him making a campaign.
    - UKIP condemned the Oldham leaflet and began an investigation into the guy that did it.
    - Foreign languages on the Tube has nothing to do with race.

    There has not been any race campaign. It's just there's been a deliberate strategy by the media and establishment to blow up every minor comment that could be construed as that in order to smear UKIP as racist.

    Of their billboard campaign, two were on immigration/unemployment, one was on EU waste, and one was on EU legislation. Their manifestos covered all sorts of issues.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:



    I have no brief to defend NSNBC or its reporting. I would say I have seen very similar leaps made in the British press, though those would usually use speech marks within the headline. However, my point is and has always been that we must judge things on their content. I read something, and decide if it convinces me or not. I don't decide if I'm convinced or not before reading. That's the difference.

    So what is your source that Ukraine has been shelling civilian area, causing mass casualties?
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/10/us-ukraine-crisis-slaviansk-idUSKBN0EL1OR20140610

    Reuters 'credible' enough for you?

    What do you think this woman is doing -having Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen in to remodel?
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00704/154671755__704446c.jpg

    Here's an RT video -hopefully you don't think those dastardly Russians created a wrecked village and paid people to act devastated:

    http://rt.com/news/170104-ukraine-lugansk-shelling-airstrike/

    I'm not denying that there has been collateral damage. That's terrible, but it's part of war. But individual buildings being hit is not the same as a deliberate carpet shelling of civilian areas, as Assad has done.

    In fact, the very article you linked said this: "The organizers of the evacuation convoy said they had reached an agreement with Kiev forces not to shell Slaviansk until they had left the city. As soon as the minibuses pulled away explosions in the distance began again."

    So the Kiev forces did actually pause while the minibuses carrying civilians left.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited July 2014

    ISAM - Mr Powell was a clever conservsative who was led down a sad blind ally by his own cleverness. A shame. He could have offered a lot and his views reflected a valid strata of opinion. On education i think the tories are being quite radical. I am happy with it. Grammars not represent a perfect solution.

    Mr Socrates - I think the UKIP concentration on race was summed up by the candidate who wanted to send Lennie Henry back to Africa. Then there was the candidate who claimed places were being ethnically cleansed and there was the manchester leaflet put out by Woolas' ex agent for UKIP and then... but noh come on Mr Socrates, we know where UKIP have been going.

    Mr Farage himself admitted he was wrong to say that people would not like Romanians living next door, nor did he seem happy to hear foreign languages talked on the tube. UKIP are not tearing up and down the country delving into the niceties of inward investment or the quality and length of cucumbers.

    Re: Lenny Henry.
    As I understand it that was a response to Mr Henry advocating racial quotas.

    "A BAME production was defined by Henry as fulfilling two out of the three following criteria: at least half of the production staff being BAME; 30 per cent of the production company being BAME controlled; or at least half of the cast, in terms of cost, being BAME."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/10705270/BBC-should-ring-fence-money-for-ethnic-minority-TV-shows-Lenny-Henry-argues.html
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited July 2014
    Even in the RT clip you show, the old guy speaking says that there is a rebel base down the road and it's quite possible the guy pulled the trigger a few seconds late. You seem like a decent bloke LuckyGuy, but you're allowing your biases to prejudice interpretation of facts. You can look at the very street and see most of it is standing, even as RT says "entire village" in its banner. In Damascus, entire neighbourhoods were flattened. The RT even refers to the pro-Russia militias as "self-defence forces". You're being shown pure propaganda.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,875
    perdix No Gove blocked a satellite grammar being opened in Sevenoaks, which did not have one despite high demand and pupils having to commute elsewhere

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10516594/Plan-for-new-grammar-school-blocked-by-Michael-Gove.html
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    GIN1138 said:

    Newspaper headlines absolutely full of Westminster Pedo allegations.

    I wonder where this is going...

    Without any evidence it's going nowhere.
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    saddened said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    I have been thinking about this 'scandal' and have re-thought some ideas I've had about the BBC.

    The first is why the BBC turned so anti-Catholic, with a truly bizarre emphasis on clerical child abuse, even to the extent to searching around the World for it.

    Now, if you, like the BBC, had covered up massive child abuse scandals, would you have been so virulent in your attacks? Surely you would follow the 'it's a social problem, not a Catholic/Tory problem' line? Especially if the Government had followed this line itself and you were a Public Corporation?

    Up to now, I thought this was just I'm-untouchable BBC arrogance. They thought they would never be held to the same standards they held other organisations.

    The second is the ostrich-like behaviour of the BBC. The Acting Head of the BBC Trust gave a speech at the LSE but somehow failed to mention the child abuse scandals affecting the BBC. Now, this is standard BBC practice, but what struck me is she is going for the job on a permanent basis. Surely you would mention how tough you'd be on child abusers at the BBC and how you would clean things up etc.

    Again, I put it down to BBC arrogance and their sense of invulnerability.

    But, on further reflection, I see a flaw in my argument; how on Earth can those clever people at the BBC think the British people will put up with their antics? They are just too smart to come up with such a dumb strategy.

    This weekend's news events have provided a convincing rationale for these two conundrums.

    The BBC's confidence is from knowledge of child abuse within all three major parties. That's why they felt they could embark on the kamikaze attack on the Catholic Church and why they are so blasé about addressing the problem within their own organisation.

    What's changed is the rise on multi-channel TV and the internet bloggers. The BBC doesn't occupy the near-total dominance it did in 1972. That's why they weren't able to keep the Savile story quiet any more, nor child abuse by MPs.

    But Westminster is so slow to spot social change and the BBC has dominated for so long that I don't think they realise the game is up.

    Here's a thought, if Catholic clergy didn't abuse children on a huge scale, the BBC wouldn't have had anything to report. No abuse, no reporting.
    Not true, of course.

    There was/is oodles of abuse to report.....at the BBC.

    The BBC chose not to report it.

    Abuse, but no reporting.
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    MrJones said:
    Fascinating. In his rogues gallery of Prime Ministerial failures he mentions neither Heath nor Brown. Must be in oversight.....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited July 2014
    Thats odd...it seems the Mirror front page is missing from the BBC newspaper round up. I can't think why and where we have seen this kind of censoring before.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-28188899
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Totally OT, but a cool visualisation of Britain's (and any other country's) exports

    http://atlas.media.mit.edu/explore/tree_map/hs/export/gbr/all/show/2010/
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "BBC Wimbledon pundit Tim Henman: Cliff Richard's singing led to the Centre Court roof being built":

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/bbc-wimbledon-pundit-tim-henman-3731994
  • Given some of the stories in the press, it may well prove to be the case that the passage of the Defamation Act 2013 represents one of the gravest errors of this Parliament. It must be hoped that the 2013 Act is not, as some have argued, a defamer's charter, or manifest injustice will result.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I can't believe Wimbledon's over already. What a fantastic tournament it was this year.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    GeoffM said:

    Why no further statements from him ?

    He died in 1995
    The fact that Geoffrey Dickens barked in 1995 explains why he hasn't made a statement this week about the issue of the missing dossier. It doesn't explain why he didn't continue to make a fuss, and pursue the issue, from 1983 to 1995.

    Unless of course he was content with the explanation which was given to him at the time, which may have been that it had been looked into by the police and insufficient evidence for specific charges had been found.
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312

    And all you see on the news is Cameron looking flustered, Tebbit saying probably some cover-up and then tomorrow May will be saying something...again if you only catch glimpses of the news and aren't really following this closely (which most of the public never do), it will appear current mob something to do with sex abuse cover-up.

    True. Just look at what happened to Lord Patten at the BBC and to Pope Benedict XVI. None were involved in child abuse but were held responsible as heads of their respective organisations.
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    JohnLoony said:

    GeoffM said:

    Why no further statements from him ?

    He died in 1995
    The fact that Geoffrey Dickens barked in 1995 explains why he hasn't made a statement this week about the issue of the missing dossier. It doesn't explain why he didn't continue to make a fuss, and pursue the issue, from 1983 to 1995.

    Unless of course he was content with the explanation which was given to him at the time, which may have been that it had been looked into by the police and insufficient evidence for specific charges had been found.
    He probably wasn't content, but if you've got no evidence that rather puts a stop to things.

    The police probably weren't as good then as they are now at getting convictions for paedophilia, but one only has to look at the Asian Muslim Child Rape Gangs cases to see how political pressure can obstruct police investigations.
  • Ninoinoz said:

    True. Just look at what happened to Lord Patten at the BBC and to Pope Benedict XVI. None were involved in child abuse but were held responsible as heads of their respective organisations.

    The doctrine that the pope may be 'held responsible' for anything is a grave heresy in your popish theology, as you should know. The pope purports to be wholly immune from human censure, whether by a general council of the faithful, or otherwise.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Geoffrey Dickens, House of Commons, 29th November 1985:

    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1985/nov/29/child-abuse-1
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,118
    AndyJS said:

    I can't believe Wimbledon's over already. What a fantastic tournament it was this year.

    One of the best finals ever, 2008 was up there as well.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,118
    @Socrates

    The USA may not have annexed any Syrian territory, but Israel annexed the Golan in 1981, 14 years after capturing it.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Geoffrey Dickens names Sir Peter Hayman in the HoC on 19th March 1981:

    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1981/mar/19/sir-peter-hayman-1
  • @Socrates

    The USA may not have annexed any Syrian territory, but Israel annexed the Golan in 1981, 14 years after capturing it.

    IIRC some rather nice wine comes from the Golan.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    the Yes campaign’s approach reinforces a growing sense that the nation of Alex Salmond’s dreams is not positive and outward-looking, but insular and small-minded; that his campaign is based ultimately not on love of Scotland but hatred of England.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10950228/Speak-up-for-the-Union.html
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Scott_P said:

    the Yes campaign’s approach reinforces a growing sense that the nation of Alex Salmond’s dreams is not positive and outward-looking, but insular and small-minded; that his campaign is based ultimately not on love of Scotland but hatred of England.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10950228/Speak-up-for-the-Union.html

    SNP run Project Fear shock
This discussion has been closed.