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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The generational splits that are working brilliantly for Ni

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited May 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The generational splits that are working brilliantly for Nigel Farage

This has be said many times before but it is worth emphasising – how UKIP is most popular amongst the older age groups – the segment of the electorate that is much more likely to vote.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • But will PM Redward, with a small majority or in coalition with the yellow peril, be seeking to implement electoral reform and say it is wrong that a 25% GE vote for UKIP yielded no MPs?

    The FPTP / electoral reform debate and referendum was wholly framed within the mindset of the UK beng a two party system with a small balancing player ( of the left) who wasn't getting it's fair share of MPs (and who went on and on endlessly about PR for that reason). Now the balancer is smashed (but still likely to get a few tens of MPs based on local strength) and a bigger vote puller will be utterly disenfranchised. The frame of reference is no longer valid.

    The UK is a 4 party country now. With a clear majority of votes on the right / centre right.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Pray for a cold winter....
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 2,815
    So the turnout in GE2015 will be crucial.
    A low turnout favours UKIP, a high turnout favours the others.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 44,989
    edited May 2013
    The red team should be jittery.

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister. He is the Neil Kinnock of our times, losing the unlosable election...
  • ...and if Farage does indeed make progress with disillusioned WWC voters in the north / Labour heartlands we may be gearing up for a truly outrageous votes vs MPs outcome....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 16,889
    edited May 2013
    MORI looks like an outlier. I agree with MM. The next election looks like being the political equivalent of an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. An unelectable leader facing a certain to lose party
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Dixons Retail, the owner of Currys and PC World, has reported growth in sales in the last 12 months.

    The company said like-for-like sales grew by 4% in the year to April, although trading in southern Europe continued to perform badly.

    It said it expected underlying profits before tax to be at the top end of market expectations of £75-85m.

    Sales fell 8% in Italy, Greece and Turkey, where economic growth has been relatively weak.

    Dixons also said trading at its online electric retail site, PIXmania, "continues to be very challenging".

    Sales at the website were down 24% for the year.

    In contrast, sales at UK and Ireland operations, which consist of Currys, Currys Digital, PC World and Dixons.co.uk, grew 7%.

    Dixons.co.uk closed in October last year, though PC World and Currys continue to trade online, alongside PIXmania.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22550534
  • FPT re Public Sector pay.

    Our brigade had a three year pay freeze, then, last year, a one percent increase, swallowed up by increased pension contributions. So one percent over 4 years. Hardly fatcat territory.

  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,973
    edited May 2013
    I would frame my Dad as a typical Kipper voter. 74, very much of the post war period in terms of values. But consumed with a hatred of all things EU, which is basically driven by his daily reading of the Daily Express. When you ask him about what Europe actually does or doesn't do and/or how it directly impacts on his life he can't give any coherent answer at all. In reality, what I think he's angry about is globalisation, the impact it has had on the Britain he grew up in, and the failure of politicians of all parties to recognise how it has adversely affected ordinary communities. But because the media diverts all its malice at Europe that's where his anger has been directed.

    If and when we do leave Europe, there will be alot of disappointed people, as they come to realise that actually, the EU was not the be all and end all of our woes.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,973

    FPT re Public Sector pay.

    Our brigade had a three year pay freeze, then, last year, a one percent increase, swallowed up by increased pension contributions. So one percent over 4 years. Hardly fatcat territory.

    Ditto. I reckon my pay has fallen in real terms by about 10% in the last 3 years.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Bbc hires a Guardian editor for Newsnight shock.

    Comradeocracy ?
  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    Labour have got to campaign to make sure people under say 40 know how important it is to vote. Otherwise they risk the coalition parties winning seats by bribing older voters who are most likely to vote. When the country is broke, it was pretty odd that the coalition announced a higher state pension amount, which I think comes in before May 2015.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,411
    Farage has charisma and uses nostalgia to peddle his solutions. He would do well on daytime TV.

    Do UKIP policies come with a free Parker pen or a carriage clock?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    TGOHF said:

    Bbc hires a Guardian editor for Newsnight shock.

    Comradeocracy ?

    Given how few journalists the Guardian actually employs - to have 2 just on Newsnight is remarkable. Is he married to Allegra Stratton ;^)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    For Richard Tyndall's benefit (and anyone else who might be interested), I've written up my views on the EU on pb2:

    http://politicalbetting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-eu-and-britain.html

    If I'm not around when Richard Tyndall is next around, could someone let him know - he asked if I could set them down for him.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 44,989
    Patrick said:

    ...and if Farage does indeed make progress with disillusioned WWC voters in the north / Labour heartlands we may be gearing up for a truly outrageous votes vs MPs outcome....

    I do think there is huge scope for UKIP 2.0 to appeal to the vote fodder in the Labour heartlands, who have seen their votes for Labour, generation after generation, fail to deliver. And Farage is someone they will listen to. Especially when what is on offer from Labour is Ed Miliband, with no answers on how they will fix the economy they broke, and a refusal to address the popular concerns about Europe with a referendum.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 44,989
    tim said:

    The Tories had a 13% lead over Labour among over 65's in 2010 ( and couldn't win a majority)
    On this poll it's down to 2% due to the UKIP effect.
    If it stays like that the Tories are in serious trouble.

    Willing to bet £100 that it stays at 2% the election, tim? I say it will be a somewhat wider gap....

    What is important, 2 years out from the election, is that the grumbly crumblies have gone to UKIP, not to Labour.

    Labour has no answers. It has nothing to offer.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,895
    Patrick said:

    But will PM Redward, with a small majority or in coalition with the yellow peril, be seeking to implement electoral reform and say it is wrong that a 25% GE vote for UKIP yielded no MPs?

    The FPTP / electoral reform debate and referendum was wholly framed within the mindset of the UK beng a two party system with a small balancing player ( of the left) who wasn't getting it's fair share of MPs (and who went on and on endlessly about PR for that reason). Now the balancer is smashed (but still likely to get a few tens of MPs based on local strength) and a bigger vote puller will be utterly disenfranchised. The frame of reference is no longer valid.

    The UK is a 4 party country now. With a clear majority of votes on the right / centre right.

    That's a bold statement based on very little polling evidence. Lab + LD + SNP + PC + Green is unlikely to score less than 50% of votes cast at the next GE.


  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,411
    Labour has many problems, but failing to secure the mid-term protest vote is definitely not one of the them.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 44,989
    edited May 2013
    Patrick said:

    Lab + LD + SNP + PC + Green is unlikely to score less than 50% of votes cast at the next GE.

    I have always seen PC as a party of the Left. SNP - much less so. Do they see themselves as a party of the Left? Curious to know. I thought that like many things with the SNP, they managed to fudge their political geography quite well...

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 44,989
    Jonathan said:

    Labour has many problems, but failing to secure the mid-term protest vote is definitely not one of the them.

    The latest local elections would suggest otherwise....
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,895

    Patrick said:

    Lab + LD + SNP + PC + Green is unlikely to score less than 50% of votes cast at the next GE.

    I have always seen PC as a party of the Left. SNP - much less so. Do they see themselves as a party of the Left? Curious to know. I thought that like many things with the SNP, they managed to fudge their political geography quite well...

    They are to the left of Labour.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,411
    edited May 2013

    Jonathan said:

    Labour has many problems, but failing to secure the mid-term protest vote is definitely not one of the them.

    The latest local elections would suggest otherwise....
    You've been getting rather excited today MM. Labour could have easily gone after an opposition style protest vote for the locals. It didn't. Whilst that doesn't answer any of the long term strategic problems the party faces, it was a bear trap to avoid.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,895

    Patrick said:

    ...and if Farage does indeed make progress with disillusioned WWC voters in the north / Labour heartlands we may be gearing up for a truly outrageous votes vs MPs outcome....

    I do think there is huge scope for UKIP 2.0 to appeal to the vote fodder in the Labour heartlands, who have seen their votes for Labour, generation after generation, fail to deliver. And Farage is someone they will listen to. Especially when what is on offer from Labour is Ed Miliband, with no answers on how they will fix the economy they broke, and a refusal to address the popular concerns about Europe with a referendum.

    UKIP advocates huge tax cuts for the wealthiest and massive cuts in public spending to fund these. Its policies on immigration may be attractive, but beyond that UKIP is essentially a Tory Party mark 2. To gain major traction in Labour heartlands they'll need to address that.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2013
    @MM

    SO said not Patrick said!

    Alot of centre right voters in Jockland see no point in voting Tory. I voted SNP when I lived in Edinburgh. Anything to keep the ScotLab monster away from the levers of power.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,118
    F1: 2015 to see McLaren use Honda engines:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22551204
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,246
    On what do you base this - or is it just a hope?

    The red team should be jittery.

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister. He is the Neil Kinnock of our times, losing the unlosable election...

  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,431
    Well Wharton is top in the private members ballot, he also voted for the amendment..
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 10,572
    antifrank said:

    For Richard Tyndall's benefit (and anyone else who might be interested), I've written up my views on the EU on pb2:

    http://politicalbetting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-eu-and-britain.html

    If I'm not around when Richard Tyndall is next around, could someone let him know - he asked if I could set them down for him.

    Thanks Antifrank - a good analysis, even if (or perhaps because) it offers no easy solutions.

    The EU and its members simply have to address its many obvious problems. tantrums in London won't help.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,036

    FPT re Public Sector pay.

    Our brigade had a three year pay freeze, then, last year, a one percent increase, swallowed up by increased pension contributions. So one percent over 4 years. Hardly fatcat territory.

    Ditto. I reckon my pay has fallen in real terms by about 10% in the last 3 years.
    What you should be asking then is who exactly is getting the public sector pay rise and the more actual freezes do exist then the greater the increase some people must be getting.

    The alternative explanation could be that proportionally more lower paid (and front line?) public sector workers are losing their jobs while the public sector fatcats and middle managers keep their's secure.

    Either way its the 'bosses' gaining at the expense of the 'workers' ie the same source of increasing inequality which we see happening generally.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    antifrank said:

    For Richard Tyndall's benefit (and anyone else who might be interested), I've written up my views on the EU on pb2:

    http://politicalbetting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-eu-and-britain.html

    If I'm not around when Richard Tyndall is next around, could someone let him know - he asked if I could set them down for him.

    Thank you - have responded.

  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited May 2013
    On topic: Mike says "It has been observed in past elections that the oldest age segment is generally the least likely to change their minds which looks promising for UKIP."

    But they just have changed their minds, haven't they? Or, at least, they have been telling pollsters that they've changed their minds, and voting in local elections in ways which are different to how they voted last time.

    Whether they will have actually changed their minds (compared with 2010) when it comes to the general election in 2015 remains a big question.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,952
    There has to come a point when the UKIP programme comes under serious scrutiny, and its lack of credibility exposed. At the moment they are getting a free ride. This is largely because a large chunk of the Tory party wants to see them continue to do well in the polls, as it enables them to push their own party rightwards; and because under FPTP Labour have an obvious tactical interest in the damage that UKIP could do to the Tories. However, if they continue to sustain poll levels of 15% or more, and as we get closer to 2015, this current lack of enquiry about their programme and its implications (both by the media and by politicians) is very unlikely to continue.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,895
    @Pa
    Patrick said:

    @MM

    SO said not Patrick said!

    Alot of centre right voters in Jockland see no point in voting Tory. I voted SNP when I lived in Edinburgh. Anything to keep the ScotLab monster away from the levers of power.

    And you were voting for a left-wing party. And the fact is that right of centre parties are very unlikely to get 50% of the vote in 2015.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,118
    Mr. Nashe, it'll be interesting to see if this is the case.

    After creating the largest and longest recession in British history the media collectively gave Labour sod all scrutiny when it came to the economy, and swallowed the bland, meaningless line that Labour 'had a deficit reduction plan'. They didn't bother to ask what spending it involved cutting and what taxes it involved raising.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,411

    On topic: Mike says "It has been observed in past elections that the oldest age segment is generally the least likely to change their minds which looks promising for UKIP."

    But they just have changed their minds, haven't they? Or, at least, they have been telling pollsters that they've changed their minds, and voting in local elections in ways which are different to how they voted last time.

    Whether they will have actually changed their minds (compared with 2010) when it comes to the general election in 2015 remains a big question.

    Don't forget turnout. Lots of people stayed at home a couple of weeks ago who will come out for the big one. There is no question that Tory and Labour voters aren't particularly motivated at the moment.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    I didn't realise that 30 'men' had been arrested in Bradford over sexual grooming of young girls. I will make absolutely no comment on the likely religion of these people.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10060570/Oxford-grooming-gang-We-will-regret-ignoring-Asian-thugs-who-target-white-girls.html
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    tim said:

    Any ideas why Cameron is so unpopular among the over 65's?

    A bigger question is why they are so keen on Nigel Farage, given his plans to tax them till their old joints creak.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,118
    Mr. K, good article, though profoundly depressing:

    "So, the defence against a rape charge by a young Muslim living in 21st-century Britain was not just ignorance of the law (which should be no defence at all). It was that the law and, indeed, the values of the wider country, were irrelevant in his Islamic school, even though it was a state institution funded by citizens who would go straight to jail if, for instance, they tried to have sex with a child.

    The fact that the judge accepted Rashid’s defence shows what a god-awful mess this country has got itself into over multiculturalism. "

    It's not just the BBC that refused to point out the racial elephant in the room over this. ITV news had sod all mention either. A problem can't be solved if it's not even acknowledged.
  • SchardsSchards Posts: 210
    A good 24 hours for the tories. Labour and Lib Dems both boxed into voting against a referendum and likely to be forced to do so again shortly - in the face of public opinion being in favour.

    A little mid term angst will be a small price to pay for the tories to be able to say, legitimately, at the next election that the only possibility of their being a referendum is under a tory governement so if you want one - vote tory.

    Job Done
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Schards said:

    A good 24 hours for the tories. Labour and Lib Dems both boxed into voting against a referendum and likely to be forced to do so again shortly - in the face of public opinion being in favour.

    A little mid term angst will be a small price to pay for the tories to be able to say, legitimately, at the next election that the only possibility of their being a referendum is under a tory governement so if you want one - vote tory.

    Job Done

    Indeed - boil lancing stuff - turn the headbangers ire from Cameron onto rEd and Clegg.

  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,952
    Schards said:

    A good 24 hours for the tories. Labour and Lib Dems both boxed into voting against a referendum and likely to be forced to do so again shortly - in the face of public opinion being in favour.

    A little mid term angst will be a small price to pay for the tories to be able to say, legitimately, at the next election that the only possibility of their being a referendum is under a tory governement so if you want one - vote tory.

    Job Done

    If that genuinely does become the tories' key message EdM will be delighted, because 90%+ of voters don't give a stuff one way or other.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    antifrank said:

    For Richard Tyndall's benefit (and anyone else who might be interested), I've written up my views on the EU on pb2: ... If I'm not around when Richard Tyndall is next around, could someone let him know - he asked if I could set them down for him.

    As one would expect, a thoughtful and interesting article.

    Somehow I don't think Richard T will be persuaded!
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 16,252
    An excellent article from antifrank on pb2, which could well be re-run on the main pb channel on a quiet day (pb2 is better suited to longer essays of this nature). To me, he sums the current predicament up exactly in the following:
    Britain’s optimal relationship with a successful EU would be a very different proposition from Britain’s optimal relationship with a struggling EU
    There is a genuine problem in EU-UK relations with the direction and extent of travel in The Project, and its lack of democratic legitimacy but the bigger problem is with the current EU itself. Were that a leaner, more effective, more efficient, more accountable and more successful institution, many of the other issues would melt away.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited May 2013
    tim said:

    They don't know the policy and very few people vote UKIP for policy reasons anyway.

    Indeed, and that is the point I've repeatedly been making over the last week. This is a mid-term protest, not a sea-change in voting intentions. People don't care about UKIP's policies because they are not voting for anything; they are 'sending a message' or 'being grumpy about gay marriage' or 'giving the establishment a kick up the backside'.

    Of course, as we have seen in Italy, it's by no means impossible that this nihilistic voting might continue into a major national election. Maybe it will, but I'm very sceptical; there are two years to go, which is plenty of time for people to get bored with UKIP, and the FPTP system is designed to encourage voters to actually make a genuine choice. We shall see.
  • SchardsSchards Posts: 210

    Schards said:

    A good 24 hours for the tories. Labour and Lib Dems both boxed into voting against a referendum and likely to be forced to do so again shortly - in the face of public opinion being in favour.

    A little mid term angst will be a small price to pay for the tories to be able to say, legitimately, at the next election that the only possibility of their being a referendum is under a tory governement so if you want one - vote tory.

    Job Done

    If that genuinely does become the tories' key message EdM will be delighted, because 90%+ of voters don't give a stuff one way or other.
    I won't be the key message, but it will be the message in europe, thereby attracting the voters who ARE motivated by it. The key message will be "we've suffered the austerity, the economy is healing, don't let Labour back to destroy it again" which will also resonate.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    tim said:

    Any ideas why Cameron is so unpopular among the over 65's?

    A bigger question is why they are so keen on Nigel Farage, given his plans to tax them till their old joints creak.
    Simply their memories and plain logic. You have to sit in their chairs and see things from their viewpoint to understand their thinking.

    Most of them will either remember WW2, lost parents or relations in it or recall the post WW2 rationing (so that Germany could be fed) which lasted til the early 1950s.

    These were times when political correctness was unknown and you could says what you thought with no risk of a criminal record.

    They also look at the nigh unrestricted immigration of the 1960s from the Caribbean and Indian subcontinent and its effects on the UK of today. Also they look at the immigration surge under Tony Blair.

    They look at the EU (& the ECHR) and see a seemingly non-elected bureaucracy forcing legislation and practices on the UK.

    These grievances have been held and growing for years and now they see that UKIP is gaining critical mass and have jumped on board - to give the other 3 parties a thorough kicking. Other details can wait for 2015.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    So the turnout in GE2015 will be crucial.
    A low turnout favours UKIP, a high turnout favours the others.

    "Hansard Society’s 10th annual “audit of political engagement”.

    Just one in 10 of 18- to 24-year-olds say they are certain to vote, down from three in 10 two years ago. Only 41 per cent of adults say they are guaranteed to vote in the next general election, compared to 48 per cent last year. And 20 per cent of voters are certain not to vote, twice as many as two years ago."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/10059243/Have-MPs-learnt-a-thing-since-2009-Their-greed-suggests-not.html
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,411

    An excellent article from antifrank on pb2, which could well be re-run on the main pb channel on a quiet day (pb2 is better suited to longer essays of this nature). To me, he sums the current predicament up exactly in the following:

    Britain’s optimal relationship with a successful EU would be a very different proposition from Britain’s optimal relationship with a struggling EU
    There is a genuine problem in EU-UK relations with the direction and extent of travel in The Project, and its lack of democratic legitimacy but the bigger problem is with the current EU itself. Were that a leaner, more effective, more efficient, more accountable and more successful institution, many of the other issues would melt away.

    Sure the EU could be better. Couldn't we all. Most of the issues AF raised are not new and apply not only to the EU. The interesting question is why this is being turned into a specific EU crisis now.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Financier said:

    tim said:

    Any ideas why Cameron is so unpopular among the over 65's?

    A bigger question is why they are so keen on Nigel Farage, given his plans to tax them till their old joints creak.
    Simply their memories and plain logic. You have to sit in their chairs and see things from their viewpoint to understand their thinking.

    Most of them will either remember WW2, lost parents or relations in it or recall the post WW2 rationing (so that Germany could be fed) which lasted til the early 1950s.

    These were times when political correctness was unknown and you could says what you thought with no risk of a criminal record.

    They also look at the nigh unrestricted immigration of the 1960s from the Caribbean and Indian subcontinent and its effects on the UK of today. Also they look at the immigration surge under Tony Blair.

    They look at the EU (& the ECHR) and see a seemingly non-elected bureaucracy forcing legislation and practices on the UK.

    These grievances have been held and growing for years and now they see that UKIP is gaining critical mass and have jumped on board - to give the other 3 parties a thorough kicking. Other details can wait for 2015.
    If true then no chance they will switch back to Labour.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited May 2013
    A good 24 hours for the tories, if by tories you actually mean the kippers.
    UKIP Bedfordshire ‏@UKIP_Bedford 13h

    We will push for early EU referendum, says @UKIP leader @Nigel_Farage http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10054024/Ukip-will-push-for-early-EU-referendum-says-Nigel-Farage.html
    Tory MPs can bang on about Europe from now till 2015 and it won't make a blind bit of difference to UKIP voters who simply don't believe Cammie and never will over his cast iron pledges. Tory MPs will never outkip the kippers yet they still can't grasp that obvious fact.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited May 2013
    Jonathan said:

    The interesting question is why this is being turned into a specific EU crisis now.

    Two reasons:

    1) The obvious one of the Eurozone crisis

    2) The less obvious one that the loss of sovereignty and giving up of vetoes in Lisbon are beginning to bite.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2013
    @ Jonathan

    ...because EU policy is destroying some of its member states. The tragedy unfolding in Spain is not an external / unavoidable thing - it is a deliberate and intended thing from Brussels.

    Good AEP article today in Telegraph on this.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @MikeK

    Yes,all the predictable excuses.

    'We all know what happens next, don’t we? Leaders of the Pakistani Muslim community – essentially a Victorian society that has landed like Doctor Who’s Tardis on a liberal, permissive planet it despises – are at pains to deny that the grooming gang’s behaviour has anything to do with ethnic origin or contemptible attitudes towards women.

    Then Sue Berelowitz, the lamentably foolish deputy children’s commissioner, trots out her lame line that Asian men targeting white girls is “just one of a number of models”, even though such “models” account for an improbably large proportion of all gang sexual abuse.
    Did Berelowitz not hear Nazir Afzal, Chief Crown Prosecutor for North West England, when he blamed “imported cultural baggage” for appalling crimes by members of his own community? “The men think that women are some lesser being,” he said.'
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 16,252
    Schards - bingo.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,411

    Jonathan said:

    The interesting question is why this is being turned into a specific EU crisis now.

    Two reasons:

    1) The obvious one of the Eurozone crisis

    2) The less obvious one that the loss of sovereignty and giving up of vetoes in Lisbon are beginning to bite.

    Don't buy it.

    (1) The coalition have been telling us ( when it suits them) that UK is/was/could be in as great a crisis as the Eurozone. Disasters and downgrades lurk behind every corner.

    (2) biting who, where exactly?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Jonathan said:

    The interesting question is why this is being turned into a specific EU crisis now.

    Two reasons:

    1) The obvious one of the Eurozone crisis

    2) The less obvious one that the loss of sovereignty and giving up of vetoes in Lisbon are beginning to bite.
    Wait until QMV kicks in - EU aint seen nothing yet..
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,143

    Patrick said:

    But will PM Redward, with a small majority or in coalition with the yellow peril, be seeking to implement electoral reform and say it is wrong that a 25% GE vote for UKIP yielded no MPs?

    The FPTP / electoral reform debate and referendum was wholly framed within the mindset of the UK beng a two party system with a small balancing player ( of the left) who wasn't getting it's fair share of MPs (and who went on and on endlessly about PR for that reason). Now the balancer is smashed (but still likely to get a few tens of MPs based on local strength) and a bigger vote puller will be utterly disenfranchised. The frame of reference is no longer valid.

    The UK is a 4 party country now. With a clear majority of votes on the right / centre right.

    That's a bold statement based on very little polling evidence. Lab + LD + SNP + PC + Green is unlikely to score less than 50% of votes cast at the next GE.


    England is a centre-right country which due to FPTP will probably end up with a slightly left of centre MP split.
    Wales is a leftish country which will end up with a centre-left MP split
    Scotland hates the tories. The Lib Dems are now considered the 'yellow tories' up there so they'll end up with a Scot nat/Lab split of MPs. Danny Alexander who had a huge majority will lose his seat.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    *chuckles*
    Neil Foster ‏@neilrfoster 13h

    It's really unfair to compare David Cameron to John Major. John Major won a majority.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    I think both Labour and the Tories consider DC to be like Major.

    Labour, Major post-1992, stricken by Europe, sleaze, and on the way out;
    Tories, Major pre-1992, faced with a Labour leader for whom there is little enthusiasm, on his way to an unexpected, if small, victory in the polls.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,702
    How do you post comments on PB2 now?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 30,776
    Boom, boom!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/10059107/MoD-launches-appeal-to-find-two-men-pictured-carrying-unexploded-bombs.html

    My profile picture shows a small shell I found lying on the ground on Margery Hill in the Peak District (actually he highest point in Sheffield), a few years ago.

    Left over from when the area was used as a range in WW2.
  • samonipadsamonipad Posts: 182
    john_zims said:

    @MikeK

    Yes,all the predictable excuses.

    'We all know what happens next, don’t we? Leaders of the Pakistani Muslim community – essentially a Victorian society that has landed like Doctor Who’s Tardis on a liberal, permissive planet it despises – are at pains to deny that the grooming gang’s behaviour has anything to do with ethnic origin or contemptible attitudes towards women.

    Then Sue Berelowitz, the lamentably foolish deputy children’s commissioner, trots out her lame line that Asian men targeting white girls is “just one of a number of models”, even though such “models” account for an improbably large proportion of all gang sexual abuse.
    Did Berelowitz not hear Nazir Afzal, Chief Crown Prosecutor for North West England, when he blamed “imported cultural baggage” for appalling crimes by members of his own community? “The men think that women are some lesser being,” he said.'


    "Now we are seeing the growth of positive forces acting against integration, of vested interests in the preservation and sharpening of racial and religious differences, with a view to the exercise of actual domination, first over fellow-immigrants and then over the rest of the population...

    Here is the means of showing that the immigrant communities can organise to consolidate their members, to agitate and campaign against their fellow citizens, and to overawe and dominate the rest with the legal weapons which the ignorant and the ill-informed have provided...

    Only resolute and urgent action will avert it even now. Whether there will be the public will to demand and obtain that action, I do not know. All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,118
    Mr. Jonatha: 'could be better' is a fantastically understated description.

    Its accounts are unaudited and have been for over a decade, its leaders are unelected, it has no mandate, it spends and increases spending when every single member state is forced to face harsh economic realities, it ignores referendum results when it actually bothers to ask the people what they think, the eurozone is crammed with incompatible economies etc etc etc.

    The EU 'could be better' in the same way Cannae 'could've gone better' for the Romans.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 22,663
    This article by an imam is worth reading - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2325185/The-Oxford-sex-ring-preachers-teach-young-Muslim-men-white-girls-cheap.html

    It must be awful to be a conscientious, law-abiding Muslim, possibly of Pakistani heritage, who would not dream of doing such things and see people like this drag the name of their community into the sewer.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Financier said:

    tim said:

    Any ideas why Cameron is so unpopular among the over 65's?

    A bigger question is why they are so keen on Nigel Farage, given his plans to tax them till their old joints creak.
    Simply their memories and plain logic. You have to sit in their chairs and see things from their viewpoint to understand their thinking.

    Most of them will either remember WW2, lost parents or relations in it or recall the post WW2 rationing (so that Germany could be fed) which lasted til the early 1950s.

    These were times when political correctness was unknown and you could says what you thought with no risk of a criminal record.

    They also look at the nigh unrestricted immigration of the 1960s from the Caribbean and Indian subcontinent and its effects on the UK of today. Also they look at the immigration surge under Tony Blair.

    They look at the EU (& the ECHR) and see a seemingly non-elected bureaucracy forcing legislation and practices on the UK.

    These grievances have been held and growing for years and now they see that UKIP is gaining critical mass and have jumped on board - to give the other 3 parties a thorough kicking. Other details can wait for 2015.
    What you say may well be true, but only in part.
    At my local UKIP branch meeting of activists on Monday night. Only one, me, was old enough to remember WW2, another two remembered the 1950's quite well and those remembering the 1960's, 5 in number. The other 9 present were all younger than that and represented all ages to the late 20's.

    So I think that PBers and others, including tim and OGH, should stop making assumptions based on hurriedly put together polls. UKIP support is a many aged (Splendoured) thing.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,895

    On topic: Mike says "It has been observed in past elections that the oldest age segment is generally the least likely to change their minds which looks promising for UKIP."

    But they just have changed their minds, haven't they? Or, at least, they have been telling pollsters that they've changed their minds, and voting in local elections in ways which are different to how they voted last time.

    Whether they will have actually changed their minds (compared with 2010) when it comes to the general election in 2015 remains a big question.

    At a local level in terms of policy I would be surprised if there was much difference at all between a vote for UKIP and the Tories. Thus, for grumpy Tory pensioners and others a vote for UKIP was an even more pain free to express dissatisfaction than is normally available. I am inclined to agree that the UKIP vote will decrease substantially between now and the GE. I also agree that anyone who believes they are gonig to get better than what Cameron has offered in terms of a referndum is living in cloud cukoo land. If the EU is your priority and you want a say on whether the UK should be in or out your only realistic choice in 2015 is the Tories. It looks as if Labour is staking a great deal on most people not seeing the EU as a defining issue. I suspect that Labour is right on this, but that the EU will be a great way to attack Miliband and co during the election campaign. Overall, I'd say that even now we are looking at "as you were" in terms of of outcome next time around - a hung Parliament with Labour the most likely to win most seats.
  • The UK (and others) just lost a vote on the EU budget. We'll get a bill next year 770 million quid higher than planned. We have no veto. Thanks Gordon for ratifying Lisbon with no referendum, despite huge poll lead for wanting referendum, and all because 'ratifying is in the UK's interest'. EUphile cnuts.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,895
    Pulpstar said:

    Patrick said:

    But will PM Redward, with a small majority or in coalition with the yellow peril, be seeking to implement electoral reform and say it is wrong that a 25% GE vote for UKIP yielded no MPs?

    The FPTP / electoral reform debate and referendum was wholly framed within the mindset of the UK beng a two party system with a small balancing player ( of the left) who wasn't getting it's fair share of MPs (and who went on and on endlessly about PR for that reason). Now the balancer is smashed (but still likely to get a few tens of MPs based on local strength) and a bigger vote puller will be utterly disenfranchised. The frame of reference is no longer valid.

    The UK is a 4 party country now. With a clear majority of votes on the right / centre right.

    That's a bold statement based on very little polling evidence. Lab + LD + SNP + PC + Green is unlikely to score less than 50% of votes cast at the next GE.


    England is a centre-right country which due to FPTP will probably end up with a slightly left of centre MP split.
    Wales is a leftish country which will end up with a centre-left MP split
    Scotland hates the tories. The Lib Dems are now considered the 'yellow tories' up there so they'll end up with a Scot nat/Lab split of MPs. Danny Alexander who had a huge majority will lose his seat.

    England is more centre right than Scotland and Wales, for sure. Whether that makes it a centre right country is a different matter. When was the last time that Labour/LD - left of centre and centre - scored less than 50% of the English vote in a GE?

  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Cyclefree

    Good article without the usual excuses.

    'Moreover, reputable studies show that around 26 per cent of those involved in grooming and exploitation rings are Muslims, which is around five times higher than the proportion of Muslims in the adult male population.
    To pretend that this is not an issue for the Islamic community is to fall into a state of ideological denial.
    But then part of the reason this scandal happened at all is precisely because of such politically correct thinking. All the agencies of the state, including the police, the social services and the care system, seemed eager to ignore the sickening exploitation that was happening before their eyes.
    Terrified of accusations of racism, desperate not to undermine the official creed of cultural diversity, they took no action against obvious abuse.'


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,118
    Indeed, Mr. Patrick. If we do get a referendum in 2017 the increased use of QMV in other areas will further add to the strength Out campaign.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Grandiose said:

    I think both Labour and the Tories consider DC to be like Major.

    Labour, Major post-1992, stricken by Europe, sleaze, and on the way out;
    Tories, Major pre-1992, faced with a Labour leader for whom there is little enthusiasm, on his way to an unexpected, if small, victory in the polls.

    If we apply the change in vote shares for Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem that occurred in 1992 to the 2010 results, and enter those into Electoral Calculus the result would be:

    Conservative, 36.67%, 291 seats
    Labour, 33.26%, 292 seats
    Lib Dem, 18.76%, 40 seats

    That would be interesting.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited May 2013
    MikeK said:

    Financier said:

    tim said:

    Any ideas why Cameron is so unpopular among the over 65's?

    A bigger question is why they are so keen on Nigel Farage, given his plans to tax them till their old joints creak.
    Simply their memories and plain logic. You have to sit in their chairs and see things from their viewpoint to understand their thinking.

    Most of them will either remember WW2, lost parents or relations in it or recall the post WW2 rationing (so that Germany could be fed) which lasted til the early 1950s.

    These were times when political correctness was unknown and you could says what you thought with no risk of a criminal record.

    They also look at the nigh unrestricted immigration of the 1960s from the Caribbean and Indian subcontinent and its effects on the UK of today. Also they look at the immigration surge under Tony Blair.

    They look at the EU (& the ECHR) and see a seemingly non-elected bureaucracy forcing legislation and practices on the UK.

    These grievances have been held and growing for years and now they see that UKIP is gaining critical mass and have jumped on board - to give the other 3 parties a thorough kicking. Other details can wait for 2015.
    What you say may well be true, but only in part.
    At my local UKIP branch meeting of activists on Monday night. Only one, me, was old enough to remember WW2, another two remembered the 1950's quite well and those remembering the 1960's, 5 in number. The other 9 present were all younger than that and represented all ages to the late 20's.

    So I think that PBers and others, including tim and OGH, should stop making assumptions based on hurriedly put together polls. UKIP support is a many aged (Splendoured) thing.

    @MikeK

    Initially I was responding to the question as to why the 65+ were supporting UKIP.

    However, it is noticeable that (as well as the polls) many young people, whilst a bit happier regarding multiculturalism, are very independent minded and do not want to be told by Europe in any form what to do. This includes many continental Europeans who currently work in the London area - also many are quite nationalistic and proud of their heritage (even though they see the world as their employment opportunity) and wish to return to their native country later and frequently do not want to see their heritage vastly changed by different cultures.





  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Cyclefree said:

    This article by an imam is worth reading - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2325185/The-Oxford-sex-ring-preachers-teach-young-Muslim-men-white-girls-cheap.html

    It must be awful to be a conscientious, law-abiding Muslim, possibly of Pakistani heritage, who would not dream of doing such things and see people like this drag the name of their community into the sewer.

    A very interesting article and almost a cry for help! It is worth noting that increasingly local Muslim leaders are saying that it is a Muslim problem and commonly linked to those of Pakistani background. I heard something similar on R4 yesterday.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 22,663
    john_zims said:

    @Cyclefree

    Good article without the usual excuses.

    'Moreover, reputable studies show that around 26 per cent of those involved in grooming and exploitation rings are Muslims, which is around five times higher than the proportion of Muslims in the adult male population.
    To pretend that this is not an issue for the Islamic community is to fall into a state of ideological denial.
    But then part of the reason this scandal happened at all is precisely because of such politically correct thinking. All the agencies of the state, including the police, the social services and the care system, seemed eager to ignore the sickening exploitation that was happening before their eyes.
    Terrified of accusations of racism, desperate not to undermine the official creed of cultural diversity, they took no action against obvious abuse.'


    One point that is worth making is this: the treatment of girls and women in the Pakistani community here is not much better: taking girls out of school and denying them education / forced marriages / abuse / honour killings etc. Indeed, the restrictions on the freedoms of girls may be one reason why some men behave in the horrific way we've seen. There is a deep seated misogyny and illiberal views of and behaviour to women, which needs to be addressed and there are some women's groups that are trying to do just that, for the benefit of all women & girls, whether they're white, of Pakistani heritage or anyone else. We would do well to support such groups and others who realise that this sort of depraved behaviour - and the views which underpin it - must be challenged and defeated.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    john_zims said:

    But then part of the reason this scandal happened at all is precisely because of such politically correct thinking. All the agencies of the state, including the police, the social services and the care system, seemed eager to ignore the sickening exploitation that was happening before their eyes.
    Terrified of accusations of racism, desperate not to undermine the official creed of cultural diversity, they took no action against obvious abuse.'

    From what I have read the main reason that this was not dealt with was because the police and social services did not believe the girls involved, or judged them as chavs, "making a lifestyle choice", etc.

    This is a problem of sexism, rather than political correctness, which we also see in the way that rape is often [not] dealt with.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,118
    Mr. L, just click on the Name/URL option and enter your username (the URL is entirely optional). No login of captcha or suchlike.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 22,663
    @Blue Rog: "It is worth noting that increasingly local Muslim leaders are saying that it is a Muslim problem and commonly linked to those of Pakistani background. "

    Yes - well it's hard to ignore revolting stories such as this, especially when it happens on your doorstep and is carried out by people you know. But I'm not sure it's necessarily a Muslim problem though it may be that the combination of Islam and rural Pakistani culture is the issue. While reluctant to rely on anecdote, at my daughter's school there are some Muslim girls with Iranian heritage and their parents are dead keen on their daughters being educated, having good careers and living freely.

    So I suspect that it's the interaction of religion / culture and particular social background which may be more relevant than one issue alone, especially since Islam has so many variants across the globe. At any event, feminists should be challenging loudly and persistently the misogynist attitudes behind this sort of depravity - a far more worthy cause for the Harriet Harmans of this world than worrying about whether there are some over-50 women presenters on TV.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited May 2013


    Either way its the 'bosses' gaining at the expense of the 'workers' ie the same source of increasing inequality which we see happening generally.

    That's not what's happening.

    Sure there's a large element of the statistics not reflecting the public sector pay freeze because the workforce is changing but that's not all down to job losses. The recategorisation of FE colleges, for example, increased public sector earnings by about 0.6% without anyone losing their job (or getting an actual increase).

    For people in the public sector the best thing that can be said about the pay freeze is that it was handled progressively. The lowest earners were exempted (even if they didnt get whopping increases) and the pay cuts delivered through the pension contribution increases were generally targeted at the higher earners.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645
    tim said:

    So I think that PBers and others, including tim and OGH, should stop making assumptions based on hurriedly put together polls.

    Indeed, chuck all the polling away and listen to the PB Kipper anecdotes.

    "Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin."

    Increasingly tim I'm beginning to wonder if you know how to use polling. Do you understand the difference between qualitative and quantitative data and their uses - I don't think you do ?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    For Richard Tyndall's benefit (and anyone else who might be interested), I've written up my views on the EU on pb2: ... If I'm not around when Richard Tyndall is next around, could someone let him know - he asked if I could set them down for him.

    As one would expect, a thoughtful and interesting article.

    Somehow I don't think Richard T will be persuaded!
    My hopes of persuading anyone out of any pre-existing view are minimal! But given that I have been very rude about a lot of other people's views on the subject, it's only fair that I should walk down to the other end of the coconut shy.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    From LabourList

    Last night Angela Eagle confirmed that:

    “Any Labour candidate who tried to stand on a joint ticket with UKIP would be auto-excluded from the Labour Party – it’s as simple as that.”
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,895
    Another factor that may be worth throwing into the mixer over the recent child sex scandals is the occupations of many of the men involved: taxi drivers, late night workers in restaurants etc. It's not just their backgronds that is important but the opportunity to meet and groom girls in the first place. There are certainly more taxi drivers and late night restaurant/kebab shop workers of Pakistani origin than there are in the general population. And such people tend to see folk when they are worst for wear - something which may help to reinforce views that are being fed to them from elsewhere. It wioukd be interesitng to know whether such occupaitons are over-represented with regards to offenders with other ethnicities.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 22,663

    john_zims said:

    But then part of the reason this scandal happened at all is precisely because of such politically correct thinking. All the agencies of the state, including the police, the social services and the care system, seemed eager to ignore the sickening exploitation that was happening before their eyes.
    Terrified of accusations of racism, desperate not to undermine the official creed of cultural diversity, they took no action against obvious abuse.'

    From what I have read the main reason that this was not dealt with was because the police and social services did not believe the girls involved, or judged them as chavs, "making a lifestyle choice", etc.

    This is a problem of sexism, rather than political correctness, which we also see in the way that rape is often [not] dealt with.
    Andrew Norfolk, who won a journalism prize for his reports on this, was being interviewed on R4 this morning and specifically said that initially there was a reluctance - certainly on the part of his paper - to look into it too deeply because of the fear of giving succour to groups like the BNP. Keir Starmer, the DPP, also made the point that the reason the prosecutors used not to pursue cases was because their assessment of the witnesses led them to conclude that they were unreliable and unbelievable rather than realising that their youth, drug & drink-taking were part of the evidence of the crimes. There may well also have been some view that they were "slags" but why did no-one say to themselves that at 13 they were a child needing protection?

  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Cyclefree said:

    @Blue Rog: "It is worth noting that increasingly local Muslim leaders are saying that it is a Muslim problem and commonly linked to those of Pakistani background. "

    Yes - well it's hard to ignore revolting stories such as this, especially when it happens on your doorstep and is carried out by people you know. But I'm not sure it's necessarily a Muslim problem though it may be that the combination of Islam and rural Pakistani culture is the issue. While reluctant to rely on anecdote, at my daughter's school there are some Muslim girls with Iranian heritage and their parents are dead keen on their daughters being educated, having good careers and living freely.

    So I suspect that it's the interaction of religion / culture and particular social background which may be more relevant than one issue alone, especially since Islam has so many variants across the globe. At any event, feminists should be challenging loudly and persistently the misogynist attitudes behind this sort of depravity - a far more worthy cause for the Harriet Harmans of this world than worrying about whether there are some over-50 women presenters on TV.

    Rather than the ineffectual hand wringing that goes on after these incidents, we need to act! Forget the PC speak, stop the protection of ethnic communities with internal policing by elders. Bring UK law into these societies and enforce it.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,895
    Financier said:

    From LabourList

    Last night Angela Eagle confirmed that:

    “Any Labour candidate who tried to stand on a joint ticket with UKIP would be auto-excluded from the Labour Party – it’s as simple as that.”

    Anything else would be insane. Running in a joint ticket with a party that believes in massive tax cuts for the wealthiest funded by huge reductions in public expenditure is not really compatible with a Labour view of the world.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    So Labour can run a joint ticket with the banker funded Co-op party but not one that wants to give the voters a say on EU ?

    Nice.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645
    One for tim and sam

    the world's most racially intolerant countries - Bangladesh gets top billing, UK most tolerant.
    How's that East London thing going ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/10061025/Worlds-most-racially-intolerant-countries-mapped.html
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,895
    TGOHF said:

    So Labour can run a joint ticket with the banker funded Co-op party but not one that wants to give the voters a say on EU ?

    Nice.

    And also a party that wants to significantly reduce public spending in order to fund tax cuts for the wealthy. Why on earth would Labour contemplate allowing any candidate to run on a joint ticket with what is essentially a right-wing, small state party just because it has one or two potentially popular policies?

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,895

    One for tim and sam

    the world's most racially intolerant countries - Bangladesh gets top billing, UK most tolerant.
    How's that East London thing going ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/10061025/Worlds-most-racially-intolerant-countries-mapped.html

    Not surprised by HK at all.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    One for tim and sam

    the world's most racially intolerant countries - Bangladesh gets top billing, UK most tolerant.
    How's that East London thing going ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/10061025/Worlds-most-racially-intolerant-countries-mapped.html

    Uk is the most tolerant because Labour allowed free access - its the multicultural aspect and our love of the EU that makes us so tolerant.

    That and the BBC.

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @SO

    I'm sure Harry was just trying to wind up a lefty! He should be ashamed of himself.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645

    TGOHF said:

    So Labour can run a joint ticket with the banker funded Co-op party but not one that wants to give the voters a say on EU ?

    Nice.

    And also a party that wants to significantly reduce public spending in order to fund tax cuts for the wealthy. Why on earth would Labour contemplate allowing any candidate to run on a joint ticket with what is essentially a right-wing, small state party just because it has one or two potentially popular policies?

    because Labour haven't any popular policies ? Indeed Labour haven't any policies at all.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Financier said:

    From LabourList

    Last night Angela Eagle confirmed that:

    “Any Labour candidate who tried to stand on a joint ticket with UKIP would be auto-excluded from the Labour Party – it’s as simple as that.”

    Anything else would be insane. Running in a joint ticket with a party that believes in massive tax cuts for the wealthiest funded by huge reductions in public expenditure is not really compatible with a Labour view of the world.

    I didn't know that Labour had a 'world view'. Peculiar world; peculiar view. ;)

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Re cricket - obviously back England to win - all in.

    Also there is another fixing scandal breaking in India - looks like 3 players banged to rights.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/indian-premier-league-2013/content/story/636169.html

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Indeed Labour haven't any policies at all.

    That's not true - you might remember some hilarious sums on pb when Labour last announced how they were going to spend the proceeds of their one revenue raising measure. I'm already looking forward to the reaction when they announce how they will spend it next year.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    So Labour can run a joint ticket with the banker funded Co-op party but not one that wants to give the voters a say on EU ?

    Nice.

    And also a party that wants to significantly reduce public spending in order to fund tax cuts for the wealthy. Why on earth would Labour contemplate allowing any candidate to run on a joint ticket with what is essentially a right-wing, small state party just because it has one or two potentially popular policies?

    Main point is Labour aren't against joint tickets - they can't be as they run them now.

    However how many Co-op candidates will be funded in 2015...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,895

    TGOHF said:

    So Labour can run a joint ticket with the banker funded Co-op party but not one that wants to give the voters a say on EU ?

    Nice.

    And also a party that wants to significantly reduce public spending in order to fund tax cuts for the wealthy. Why on earth would Labour contemplate allowing any candidate to run on a joint ticket with what is essentially a right-wing, small state party just because it has one or two potentially popular policies?

    because Labour haven't any popular policies ? Indeed Labour haven't any policies at all.

    Labour ius a centre left party. UKIP is a right wing party. Only an imbecile would seriously suggest that they run on a joint ticket. As you well know!

This discussion has been closed.