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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Exactly 9 months tomorrow the 2010-2015 Parliament will be

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited June 2014 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Exactly 9 months tomorrow the 2010-2015 Parliament will be dissolved triggering the formal start of GE2015

One thing a lot of people have missed is that the formal campaign period will be far longer than we’ve seen in the past. The 2013 Electoral Registration & Administration Act 2013 extends the length of the statutory timetable for from 17 to 25 working days. Add on all the public holidays and weekend days and you get to five and a half weeks.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Last time it seemed like it was running from January...

    I suspect everyone will be heinously bored well before Easter...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    edited June 2014
    Hmm, that'll be around the time of next year's Spanish Grand Prix.

    Isn't there a desire for the debates to be more spread out, with the first around February-March? If so, that might be the starting gun for unofficial campaigning.

    Obviously if Yes wins that'll dramatically alter things, if No wins then things will be changed but less dramatically.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Charles, perhaps but Easter should perk people up. Easily the best of the religious holidays.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    It's very quiet.

    When will we learn whether UKIP will be counted as a major party by the BBC and Others? [It's my understanding that although the decision between the BBC and Others is likely to be the same, it could be different].
  • I can see no way UKIP can be given major party status at a General Election with no MPs, and not give tmajor party status to the Green Party with 1 MP. As Cameron stated earlier this year it would be unfair to debate with Farage and not with a spokesperson/leader of the Green Party , hence him suggesting the 2,3,5 formula.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Welcome to pb.com, Mr. Womble.

    I tend to agree. It's a rather odd situation to be in, though, with one governing party on 7% and a party with no MPs on significantly more than that.
  • Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited June 2014
    @JohnLilburne FPT
    "You haven't answered any of my other points about why it is a stupid idea to allow benefits in kind to be tax free."
    Why should I?, I am suggesting it is the sort of thing a principle free party will do to get itself re-elected, not suggesting it as good for the country. As I said earlier in the thread "the [2015] budget which will be the most political ever and followed by a ruthless attack both personal and polices on Labour"
    you are also giving the impression of a party that is prepared to skew the tax system towards the narrow sectional interests of certain groupls of people
    Yep, that is pretty well what I think of them. What do you think, at a time when under 65s have benefits cut left right and centtre, continuing to give the winter fuel allowance and continued free bus passes for all pensioners, even the wealthy ones is? Gone are the days of people like Thatcher who had a coherent political dogma which they would stick to even if unpopular.

    IMHO the only principles this lot have is to stay in power and win and to make sure their elite mates stay elite, which is why I will be voting UKIP, even if it risks Milipede winning. However I suspect a lot of people will be taken in for it, especially with Miliband and Balls as the alternative.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    @Morris_Dancer‌ - Is it you who wants to use the space-cannon? perhaps you could start with this...

    World's Largest Trebuchet - Warwick Castle

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouSTWX240-U
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Hopkins, there's the space cannon, the solar death ray, a reinforced trebuchet on the south coast (capable of using the fattest pie-addict as ammunition) and a North Sea trebuchet as well. Plans for a small fleet of Death Stars were put on hold when the Coalition refused state funding.

    Nice video, think I've seen it before a while ago. Trebuchets are tremendous fun.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Mr. Hopkins, there's the space cannon, the solar death ray, a reinforced trebuchet on the south coast (capable of using the fattest pie-addict as ammunition) and a North Sea trebuchet as well. Plans for a small fleet of Death Stars were put on hold when the Coalition refused state funding.

    Nice video, think I've seen it before a while ago. Trebuchets are tremendous fun.

    "Trebuchets are tremendous fun".

    I suspect that depends on whether you are sending or receiving.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,379
    edited June 2014
    GIN1138 said:

    It should be fairly easy to prove or disprove Hurst's thesis by looking at other countries like Canada (and Australia?) that have fixed term Parliaments.

    If opinion shift's late in those countries then it would be fairly easy to conclude that opinion could shift late here.

    However, if there's no noticeable difference in countries that have "fixed" parliaments with those that do not, then Hurt's theory may no play out.

    Anybody want to spend their Sunday afternoon looking at past elections in Canada (and Australia?) on Wikipedia? ;)

    And as if by magic, a shopkeeper appeared...

    The question is: "Did the party in the lead in the opinion polls six (nine) months before the election go on to gain a plurality at the election?"

    Canadian federal election (fixed-term)
    ======================================
    The election takes place in October. The polls on Wikipedia for the preceding April and January were considered
    * Oct 2014: TBD
    * Oct 2011: Yes, all in Apr11 (Yes, all in Jan11)[1]
    * Oct 2008: Yes, all but 3 in Apr08 (Yes, all but 2 in Jan08)[2]

    Before 2008, it was not fixed-term

    * Jan 2006: No, all in Jul05 (Yes, all in Apr05 but 4)[3]
    * Jun 2004: unknown in Dec03 (unknown in Sep03)[4]

    UK parliamentary election (fixed-term)
    =====================================
    The election takes place in May. The polls on Wikipedia for the preceding Nov and Aug were considered
    * May 2015: TBD

    Before 2015, it was not fixed-term

    * May 2010: Yes, all in Nov10 (Yes, all in Aug09)[5]
    * May 2005: Yes, all in Nov05 (Yes, all in Aug04 but 2)[6]
    * Jun 2001: Yes, all in Dec00 (Yes, all in Sep00 but 5)[7]


    [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2011
    [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2008
    [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2006
    [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2004
    [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2010
    [6] http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-2001-2005
    [7] http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1997-2001
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,379
    Discussion of the below

    * Fixed-term parliaments don't seem to alter swingback against the incumbent
    * Broadly speaking, if you're in the lead six months out, you will in a plurality
    * The exception is Canada Jan06, where the Libs led in all the polls six months before, but the Cons went on to overhaul them and win.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    FPT

    We desperately need a "Dave is crap" thread!
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312

    @JohnLilburne FPT

    "You haven't answered any of my other points about why it is a stupid idea to allow benefits in kind to be tax free."
    Why should I?, I am suggesting it is the sort of thing a principle free party will do to get itself re-elected, not suggesting it as good for the country.

    Apologies, I thought you were actually advocating the policies in your comment.

    They are all as bad as each other really. Labour likes to reward public sector workers and benefit claimants. The Tories, better-off pensioners and the married middle class.

    There certainly seems to be little trickle-down in this recovery. The rich are still coining it, while those who remained in employment at the other end of the scale have little to show, apart from maybe their jobs now being safer (which is an intangible).

    However I can't see why you will vote UKIP in a search for a party with a coherent political dogma, as it is a party that claims to be libertarian while embracing palaeo-conservatives.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312
    edited June 2014

    @Morris_Dancer‌ - Is it you who wants to use the space-cannon? perhaps you could start with this...

    World's Largest Trebuchet - Warwick Castle

    Woo hoo!

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312

    I can see no way UKIP can be given major party status at a General Election with no MPs, and not give tmajor party status to the Green Party with 1 MP. As Cameron stated earlier this year it would be unfair to debate with Farage and not with a spokesperson/leader of the Green Party , hence him suggesting the 2,3,5 formula.

    Well, I would argue that "having MPs" is only one element of being a major political party. You might look at performance in other elections and opinion polls, for example, both of which put UKIP well ahead of the Greens at the moment.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,949
    Have just had Populus on the phone. They prompted for UKIP.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Paddy Power are a colossal 175-1 for a 5-0 India whitewash against England right now. I've taken all I can (£4.79) of this.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Maybe Juncker is not so bad, apparently he was the only one of the 5 Spitzenkandidaten to place a commitment to listen to the UK's concerns in his manifesto http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/comment/columns/adamboulton/article1427861.ece
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Lol I post the tip here, take £4.79 of their offer and they slam the odds in to 66-1.

    Betvictor still at 100-1 btw.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited June 2014


    However I can't see why you will vote UKIP in a search for a party with a coherent political dogma, as it is a party that claims to be libertarian while embracing palaeo-conservatives.

    Parties do not have to fit into a pre-defined political philosopher's definition. They can endorse a collection of policies that they find complimentary.

    For UKIP, the Australian Liberal Party might be a model:

    "...building a coalition from the Right, including mortgage-belt families, social conservatives and libertarians who place economics ahead of their liberal social views"

    http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/5624
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    @isam Watching the WI NZ test ?

    I think WI will have to chase 300 and fail.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2014
    How did we political junkies miss that:

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/house-races/210899-have-zombies-invaded-congress

    "The election for U.S. House for Oklahoma’s 3rd District will be contested by the Candidate, Timothy Ray Murray," Murray wrote on his website. "I will be stating that his votes are switched with Rep. Lucas votes, because it is widely known Rep. Frank D. Lucas is no longer alive and has been displayed by a look alike."

    "We know that it is possible to use look alike artificial or manmade replacements," Murray continued.

    http://www.timothyraymurray.com/Home_Page.html

    Here you can read gems like this:
    "Rep. Frank Lucas, and a few other Oklahoma and other States’ Congressional Members were depicted as being executed by The World Court on or about Jan. 11, 2011 in Southern Ukraine. "
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,379
    HYUFD said:

    Maybe Juncker is not so bad, apparently he was the only one of the 5 Spitzenkandidaten to place a commitment to listen to the UK's concerns in his manifesto http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/comment/columns/adamboulton/article1427861.ece

    It's not an unalloyed advantage. It's a competition between two visions.
    * Cameron's vision: include national parliaments in the decision-making loop of the EU (cf the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe), allow powers to be repatriated back and forth as national parliaments change, etc.
    * Juncker's vision: further federalise the EU, allow special status for UK (and any other refuseniks).

    The former has the European nation-states as the primary actors. The latter has the European peoples as the primary actors, bypassing the nation-states. The Eurosceptics point out that the lack of a demos and single language means that the latter view will not work. They have a point. The Eurosceptics conclude that the proper response to the problem is to leave the EU and let it collapse under it's own weight. My point is that such a collapse would be the worse thing since WWII and should be prevented. My concern is that Cameron simply doesn't have the ability to progress his vision and Juncker will win by default, leaving the UK orbiting a new star in the firmament: sometimes illuminated, often burnt, but always overshadowed. And that's if we're lucky...:-(


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited June 2014
    viewcode I actually think Juncker's vision is the only way the UK could stay in the EU. A majority of EU nations clearly want a federal Europe, as Friday showed, the only way the UK will stay in the EU is in an outer tier of non Eurozone nations alongside Sweden, Denmark, and a few Eastern European nations like Hungary (who voted with the UK) and Romania. That relationship would be based on trade rather than political and economic union as we originally voted for
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited June 2014
    viewcode said:

    GIN1138 said:

    It should be fairly easy to prove or disprove Hurst's thesis by looking at other countries like Canada (and Australia?) that have fixed term Parliaments.

    If opinion shift's late in those countries then it would be fairly easy to conclude that opinion could shift late here.

    However, if there's no noticeable difference in countries that have "fixed" parliaments with those that do not, then Hurt's theory may no play out.

    Anybody want to spend their Sunday afternoon looking at past elections in Canada (and Australia?) on Wikipedia? ;)

    And as if by magic, a shopkeeper appeared...

    The question is: "Did the party in the lead in the opinion polls six (nine) months before the election go on to gain a plurality at the election?"

    Canadian federal election (fixed-term)
    ======================================
    The election takes place in October. The polls on Wikipedia for the preceding April and January were considered
    * Oct 2014: TBD
    * Oct 2011: Yes, all in Apr11 (Yes, all in Jan11)[1]
    * Oct 2008: Yes, all but 3 in Apr08 (Yes, all but 2 in Jan08)[2]

    Before 2008, it was not fixed-term

    * Jan 2006: No, all in Jul05 (Yes, all in Apr05 but 4)[3]
    * Jun 2004: unknown in Dec03 (unknown in Sep03)[4]

    UK parliamentary election (fixed-term)
    =====================================
    The election takes place in May. The polls on Wikipedia for the preceding Nov and Aug were considered
    * May 2015: TBD

    Before 2015, it was not fixed-term

    * May 2010: Yes, all in Nov10 (Yes, all in Aug09)[5]
    * May 2005: Yes, all in Nov05 (Yes, all in Aug04 but 2)[6]
    * Jun 2001: Yes, all in Dec00 (Yes, all in Sep00 but 5)[7]


    [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2011
    [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2008
    [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2006
    [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2004
    [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2010
    [6] http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-2001-2005
    [7] http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1997-2001
    Thanks very much.:)

    So fixed term parliaments don't make much difference to when swingback occurs, but the sample range is quite small.

    Seems to back up my feeling that autumn is going to be a critical period. Ideally we'll be looking for Con's to have a consistent lead in polls by November (six months from election)
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode I actually think Juncker's vision is the only way the UK could stay in the EU. A majority of EU nations clearly want a federal Europe, as Friday showed, the only way the UK will stay in the EU is in an outer tier of non Eurozone nations alongside Sweden, Denmark, and a few Eastern European nations like Hungary (who voted with the UK) and Romania. That relationship would be based on trade rather than political and economic union as we originally voted for

    There wont be political union, it doesn't suit Germany.
    Why would Germany give up its power of control over european politics that it has achieved under the present system, by getting rid of its own existence?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    GIN1138 said:

    viewcode said:

    GIN1138 said:

    It should be fairly easy to prove or disprove Hurst's thesis by looking at other countries like Canada (and Australia?) that have fixed term Parliaments.

    If opinion shift's late in those countries then it would be fairly easy to conclude that opinion could shift late here.

    However, if there's no noticeable difference in countries that have "fixed" parliaments with those that do not, then Hurt's theory may no play out.

    Anybody want to spend their Sunday afternoon looking at past elections in Canada (and Australia?) on Wikipedia? ;)

    And as if by magic, a shopkeeper appeared...

    The question is: "Did the party in the lead in the opinion polls six (nine) months before the election go on to gain a plurality at the election?"

    Canadian federal election (fixed-term)
    ======================================
    The election takes place in October. The polls on Wikipedia for the preceding April and January were considered
    * Oct 2014: TBD
    * Oct 2011: Yes, all in Apr11 (Yes, all in Jan11)[1]
    * Oct 2008: Yes, all but 3 in Apr08 (Yes, all but 2 in Jan08)[2]

    Before 2008, it was not fixed-term

    * Jan 2006: No, all in Jul05 (Yes, all in Apr05 but 4)[3]
    * Jun 2004: unknown in Dec03 (unknown in Sep03)[4]

    UK parliamentary election (fixed-term)
    =====================================
    The election takes place in May. The polls on Wikipedia for the preceding Nov and Aug were considered
    * May 2015: TBD

    Before 2015, it was not fixed-term

    * May 2010: Yes, all in Nov10 (Yes, all in Aug09)[5]
    * May 2005: Yes, all in Nov05 (Yes, all in Aug04 but 2)[6]
    * Jun 2001: Yes, all in Dec00 (Yes, all in Sep00 but 5)[7]


    [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2011
    [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2008
    [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2006
    [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2004
    [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2010
    [6] http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-2001-2005
    [7] http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1997-2001
    Thanks very much.:)

    So fixed term parliaments don't make much difference to when swingback occurs, but the sample range is quite small.

    Seems to back up my feeling that autumn is going to be a critical period. Ideally we'll be looking for Con's to have a consistent lead in polls by November (six months from election)
    Time is running out, i've being saying that for a while, it's conferences or bust for the government.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    I tend to agree with you Quincel, Farage would look petty if he did it, and probably lose respect/sympathy
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,379
    edited June 2014
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode I actually think Juncker's vision is the only way the UK could stay in the EU. A majority of EU nations clearly want a federal Europe, as Friday showed, the only way the UK will stay in the EU is in an outer tier of non Eurozone nations alongside Sweden, Denmark, and a few Eastern European nations like Hungary (who voted with the UK) and Romania. That relationship would be based on trade rather than political and economic union as we originally voted for

    Unfortunately I agree with you. I would caution you not to project your earnest desirings onto the shape of this "associate membership": I suspect it will not meet your hopes and would not be an Efta-by-another-name (I don't call it "in the corner with the special kids with the blunt scissors" just because it's a good line)

    However, that is by-the-by. I hope you will in return acknowledge that I quite regret the death of Cameron's ambition: his ideas were good and his logic sound. But that's not enough, he must also project power. And the true tragedy of the Junckerfuck is that he did not project power: they ran over us like we just weren't there. And that's not good for the UK, whichever party one cleaves to.

    I see Jeremy Hunt is calling the EU28exUK cowards. Marvellous. Maybe he'll tell his mum on them, that'll show them...:-(

  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Re: BBC bias

    My toddler daughter regularly buys BBC magazines (for the stickers...).

    In a quiet moment I picked up one and read the main story. The plot was thus:

    Ben and Holly were visited by an alien who needed their help. The problem: the factories on their planet had made too much pollution which caused the sun to get very hot, killing all the plants and drying up the water.

    Not really wanted to try into a debate on the rights and wrongs of the subject matter, but that's pretty strong positioning - even propaganda you might argue
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
    Will the cameras also record all the eggs being thrown at him?

    Others might be disruptive if he starts to play that game.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Speedy It would be a Federation, Germany would not cease to exist.

    Viewcode Indeed, it may not be perfect, but it will be better for us than the present arrangement
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
    Will the cameras also record all the eggs being thrown at him?

    Others might be disruptive if he starts to play that game.
    They have already done that, next.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
    Will the cameras also record all the eggs being thrown at him?

    Others might be disruptive if he starts to play that game.
    They have already done that, next.
    Eggsactly.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    edited June 2014
    Good. Tory hopes are based on two possibilities: first that the feeling of economic wellbeing is merely lagging, rather than absent from, the recovery, and secondly what can be encapsulated in the one word "Sheffield". A longer campaign gives more time for a Sheffield moment to occur (and more Mrs Duffy moments while we are at it).
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy It would be a Federation, Germany would not cease to exist.

    Viewcode Indeed, it may not be perfect, but it will be better for us than the present arrangement

    It will not suit Germany, changing the system to dilute Germany's power is against german interests, the only way for it to pass is to make the german chancellor the permanent head of state and government of a federation. (German and Italian unifications as an example)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,379
    HYUFD said:

    Viewcode Indeed, it may not be perfect, but it will be better for us than the present arrangement

    Aye. But there was a time when we told Europe what to do. Now it tells us what to do. We can't even get the Greeks to vote against the Germans...:-(

  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
    If Farage does anything to physically disrupt the debates it will play as "If I'm not invited then I won't let them happen" which will basically boil down to "I didn't get my way and have thrown my toys out of the pram".
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Presidents of the new European Parliamentary groups

    EPP: Manfred Weber (Germany)
    S&D: Martin Schutlz (Germany)
    ECR: Syed Kamall (UK)
    ALDE: Guy Verhofstadt (Belgium)
    GUE/NGL: Gabriele Zimmer (Germany)
    Greens/EFA: Philippe Lamberts (Belgium) e Rebecca Harms (Germany)
    EFD: Nigel Farage (UK)

    Select committee chairmanships are expected to be 7 for EPP, 7 S&D, 2 ECR, 2 ALDE, 1 GUE, 1 Greens, 1 EFD as they are allocated using a PR system.

    Some stats on the new Parliament provided by the EU Parliament website

    Women represent 33.88% of MEPs. Highest share in Malta (66.67%), Sweden (55%), Ireland (54.55), Finland (53.85), Estonia (50%). Lowest share in Lithuania (9.09), Cyprus (16.67) and Hungary (19.05)).

    Oldest MEP: Emmanouil Glezos from Greece, born 9.9.1922
    Youngest: Anders Primdahl Vistisen from Danmark, born 12.11.1987

    49.4% MEPs were present at dissolution. Countries with highest % of re-elected MEPs: Germany (69.79), Luxembourg (66.67%), Croatia (63.64%), Romania (62.50%). Lowest share of incumbents returned in Greece (0!), Czech Republic (28.57%), Italy (31.51%), Cryprus (33.33%),

  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Lets look at the German and Italian unifications while we are talking about an EU federation.
    In the italian example the Kingdom of Sardinia simply conquered the rest of Italy, so the government of Sardinia simply became the government of Italy.
    In the german example Prussia partially conquered Germany and the smaller german states joined Prussia into a federation, but again the Prussian government simply became the German government, the smaller states had limited autonomy under strict prussian imperial control and almost everyone in the german government was prussian.

    So since Germany controls europe it will allow an EU federation to exist only if the german government gets all the posts and effectively the german government becomes the european government.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,379
    GIN1138 said:

    viewcode said:

    GIN1138 said:

    It should be fairly easy to prove or disprove Hurst's thesis by looking at other countries like Canada (and Australia?) that have fixed term Parliaments.

    If opinion shift's late in those countries then it would be fairly easy to conclude that opinion could shift late here.

    However, if there's no noticeable difference in countries that have "fixed" parliaments with those that do not, then Hurt's theory may no play out.

    Anybody want to spend their Sunday afternoon looking at past elections in Canada (and Australia?) on Wikipedia? ;)

    And as if by magic, a shopkeeper appeared...

    The question is: "Did the party in the lead in the opinion polls six (nine) months before the election go on to gain a plurality at the election?"

    Canadian federal election (fixed-term)
    ======================================
    The election takes place in October. The polls on Wikipedia for the preceding April and January were considered
    * Oct 2014: TBD
    * Oct 2011: Yes, all in Apr11 (Yes, all in Jan11)[1]
    * Oct 2008: Yes, all but 3 in Apr08 (Yes, all but 2 in Jan08)[2]

    Before 2008, it was not fixed-term

    * Jan 2006: No, all in Jul05 (Yes, all in Apr05 but 4)[3]
    * Jun 2004: unknown in Dec03 (unknown in Sep03)[4]

    UK parliamentary election (fixed-term)
    =====================================
    The election takes place in May. The polls on Wikipedia for the preceding Nov and Aug were considered
    * May 2015: TBD

    Before 2015, it was not fixed-term

    * May 2010: Yes, all in Nov10 (Yes, all in Aug09)[5]
    * May 2005: Yes, all in Nov05 (Yes, all in Aug04 but 2)[6]
    * Jun 2001: Yes, all in Dec00 (Yes, all in Sep00 but 5)[7]


    [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2011
    [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2008
    [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2006
    [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2004
    [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2010
    [6] http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-2001-2005
    [7] http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1997-2001
    Thanks very much.:)
    You're welcome.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Speedy No way the Greeks will accept a permanent German head of state given recent events, but Germany joined the Eurozone, so that is their problem, not ours
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited June 2014
    viewcode I don't think we ever told Europe what to do, we had an empire which covered 1/4 of the world but most of it was in Asia, Australasia, Africa and the Americas not Europe. We may not have wanted Spanish, French or German domination of Europe, but we did not want to dominate it either
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
    If Farage does anything to physically disrupt the debates it will play as "If I'm not invited then I won't let them happen" which will basically boil down to "I didn't get my way and have thrown my toys out of the pram".
    Essentially it will be the people who will disrupt the debates since he can stage it as a public event not a party one, imagine if he allows ordinary people to speak as well it will be imposible for his enemies to moan that Farage is not playing nice.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2014
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy No way the Greeks will accept a permanent German head of state given recent events, but Germany joined the Eurozone, so that is their problem, not ours

    That's the other way around, Greece joined the Eurozone so it's their problem to accept a german government if they wish to join a federation with Germany.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
    If Farage does anything to physically disrupt the debates it will play as "If I'm not invited then I won't let them happen" which will basically boil down to "I didn't get my way and have thrown my toys out of the pram".
    Essentially it will be the people who will disrupt the debates since he can stage it as a public event not a party one, imagine if he allows ordinary people to speak as well it will be imposible for his enemies to moan that Farage is not playing nice.
    This is ludicrous , the is Farage you are talking about not the Messiah .
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
    If Farage does anything to physically disrupt the debates it will play as "If I'm not invited then I won't let them happen" which will basically boil down to "I didn't get my way and have thrown my toys out of the pram".
    Essentially it will be the people who will disrupt the debates since he can stage it as a public event not a party one, imagine if he allows ordinary people to speak as well it will be imposible for his enemies to moan that Farage is not playing nice.
    This is ludicrous , the is Farage you are talking about not the Messiah .
    What, he wont get a crowd?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    I can see precisely why the Euro teams don't want the world cup to be held in Qatar. Noones going to die, but all the Euro teams are going to get walloped.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Speedy which shows the difficulty of a federation, but as I said that is the problem of the Eurozone, not ours
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
    If Farage does anything to physically disrupt the debates it will play as "If I'm not invited then I won't let them happen" which will basically boil down to "I didn't get my way and have thrown my toys out of the pram".
    Essentially it will be the people who will disrupt the debates since he can stage it as a public event not a party one, imagine if he allows ordinary people to speak as well it will be imposible for his enemies to moan that Farage is not playing nice.
    This is ludicrous , the is Farage you are talking about not the Messiah .
    What, he wont get a crowd?
    Two men , a dog and MikeK
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy which shows the difficulty of a federation, but as I said that is the problem of the Eurozone, not ours

    True, the UK can leave any time it likes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Dolly Parton still feisty as ever at Glastonbury, highlight of the weekend for me!
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Switching to american politics for my last post before tonight's football.
    If you read that Drudgereport over the last few weeks every day it feels like america is being invaded by dangerous bloodthirsty mexicans who hate the american way of life thingy.
    No wonder the republican base is so fired up about immigration.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Speedy Indeed, the Eurozone is less easy to escape from once you share a currency
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,529
    Charles said:

    Re: BBC bias

    My toddler daughter regularly buys BBC magazines (for the stickers...).

    In a quiet moment I picked up one and read the main story. The plot was thus:

    Ben and Holly were visited by an alien who needed their help. The problem: the factories on their planet had made too much pollution which caused the sun to get very hot, killing all the plants and drying up the water.

    Not really wanted to try into a debate on the rights and wrongs of the subject matter, but that's pretty strong positioning - even propaganda you might argue
    I think it's unlikely that a BBC comic would feature a planet being overrun by bats or foxes, which had to be eradicated.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    @MarkSenior
    Two men, a dog and MikeK and MarkSenior on a lead. ^^
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
    If Farage does anything to physically disrupt the debates it will play as "If I'm not invited then I won't let them happen" which will basically boil down to "I didn't get my way and have thrown my toys out of the pram".
    Essentially it will be the people who will disrupt the debates since he can stage it as a public event not a party one, imagine if he allows ordinary people to speak as well it will be imposible for his enemies to moan that Farage is not playing nice.
    This is ludicrous , the is Farage you are talking about not the Messiah .
    He's a very naughty boy.

  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
    If Farage does anything to physically disrupt the debates it will play as "If I'm not invited then I won't let them happen" which will basically boil down to "I didn't get my way and have thrown my toys out of the pram".
    Essentially it will be the people who will disrupt the debates since he can stage it as a public event not a party one, imagine if he allows ordinary people to speak as well it will be imposible for his enemies to moan that Farage is not playing nice.
    This is ludicrous , the is Farage you are talking about not the Messiah .
    What, he wont get a crowd?
    I guess that UAF and Hope not Hate will try and hijack it
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    I can see no way UKIP can be given major party status at a General Election with no MPs, and not give tmajor party status to the Green Party with 1 MP. As Cameron stated earlier this year it would be unfair to debate with Farage and not with a spokesperson/leader of the Green Party , hence him suggesting the 2,3,5 formula.

    I can see plenty of ways. Number of votes cast at the last election, performance in local elections in between, performance in the Euro elections in between, performance in Westminster by-elections in between, performance in the opinion polls in between, number of seats contested. And so on.

    That the Greens (or Respect, or Kidderminster Health, or whoever), might have won a seat is by-the-by. There will always be some places with unusual local factors. Party status should be based on the big picture, not freak small ones.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy Indeed, the Eurozone is less easy to escape from once you share a currency

    Actually there is a legal window for a eurozone member to leave just the eurozone, article 139 of the lisbon treaty, it requires legal interpretation of course (adopt vs usage [if you can't legally adopt it how can you use it]) but if it is done the "member state" will simply become "member state with a derogation", if a member state doesn't fullfill the requirements as stated by the council, but yes it's more fuzzy than simply leaving the EU since there is a clear article to allow that.
    But de-facto it is easy to do so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    speedy And with a rising Hispanic population that explains why the GOP is having such a problem at general elections, and why it may need a candidate of Hispanic heritage to return to the White House. Key fact, Romney won a higher percentage of the white vote than any GOP candidate since Bush Snr in 1988, but he still lost
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    HYUFD said:

    speedy And with a rising Hispanic population that explains why the GOP is having such a problem at general elections, and why it may need a candidate of Hispanic heritage to return to the White House. Key fact, Romney won a higher percentage of the white vote than any GOP candidate since Bush Snr in 1988, but he still lost

    I don't believe the GOP need a Hispanic candidate to win the White House but at least a candidate that isn't seen as Hispanic unfriendly and hostile to immigration reform. As long as this is the case the GOP will struggle badly in many swing states.

    Your point about the white vote is correct but of course it is a higher percentage of a successively diminishing number.

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Dutch equalise.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    speedy And with a rising Hispanic population that explains why the GOP is having such a problem at general elections, and why it may need a candidate of Hispanic heritage to return to the White House. Key fact, Romney won a higher percentage of the white vote than any GOP candidate since Bush Snr in 1988, but he still lost

    They need someone who is popular with hispanics not just a hispanic, see the abysmal performance of Marco Rubio among latinos compared with other non latino GOP candidates.
    Latinos are a less cohesive group than blacks, they tend to vote more on policy issues not skin colour.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    dutch ahead.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    On topic, the Electoral Commission might do well to ditch their major / minor party distinction and go for four categories:

    Major Party: one which stands a strong chance of forming the next government or being the next main party of opposition.

    Secondary Party: one which enjoys substantial support across the country but which is not likely to be in a position to provide either the PM or the Leader of the Opposition, or which is likely to provide a sufficient number of MPs to be a meaningful force in the new parliament.

    Minor Party: one which has a national presence but only limited support, or which is not a national party but which stands a reasonable chance of returning at least a modest number of MPs.

    Peripheral Party: one of very limited support, either in terms of geographic concentration or total votes.

    Coverage to be based on an approximate 5-3-1-0 basis.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    I didn't realize Tom Daley played as a Dutch striker ....
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    Quincel said:

    Speedy said:

    isam said:

    Speedy said:

    I would imagine that UKIP will do a partisan warfare campaign.
    Like doing a peasants rally just outside the leaders debate venue with huge speakers directed towards the studio so that people watching the debate will hear Farage's voice blaring in the backround, the media will simply be forced to cover the disruption as it will be more interesting that the debate itself.

    Farage has already said that he will do an online stream if he isn't included
    Who will watch an online stream?
    Making a mess of the leaders debate with giant booming speakers is much more cool and interesting for TV, they will show clips of it around the world on almost every TV station with a news department, while an online steaming will just get a few views on ustream.
    It also makes you look like a child who is bitter about being excluded. Farage would be nuts to do this.
    Not if its within a rally, if he was alone outside the studio of course he would look stupid but surrounded by thousands of people he can masquerade it as the "people's voice want to be heard and it will be heard" as he makes his stump speech to the crowd which can be blared on those giant booming speakers towards the studio.
    If Farage does anything to physically disrupt the debates it will play as "If I'm not invited then I won't let them happen" which will basically boil down to "I didn't get my way and have thrown my toys out of the pram".
    Essentially it will be the people who will disrupt the debates since he can stage it as a public event not a party one, imagine if he allows ordinary people to speak as well it will be imposible for his enemies to moan that Farage is not playing nice.
    A public event that just happens to be hosted by UKIP, just happens to star Nigel Farage, and just happens to be right outside the debates that UKIP have been excluded from? No-one's going to buy that for a second.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    speedy And with a rising Hispanic population that explains why the GOP is having such a problem at general elections, and why it may need a candidate of Hispanic heritage to return to the White House. Key fact, Romney won a higher percentage of the white vote than any GOP candidate since Bush Snr in 1988, but he still lost

    They need someone who is popular with hispanics not just a hispanic, see the abysmal performance of Marco Rubio among latinos compared with other non latino GOP candidates.
    Latinos are a less cohesive group than blacks, they tend to vote more on policy issues not skin colour.
    Indeed. The GOP don't need their Obama, they need the party generally to warm up to minority issues. If the figurehead is undermined by too many 'supporters' then people won't trust him anyway.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Unlucky for Mexico, but Robben should have had 3 penalties in that game.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    JackW Indeed, but a Hispanic candidate would help, preferably of Mexican origin, maybe George P Bush. The problem is the GOP base is now much whiter and more anti immigration than the nation as a whole, so for the moment a GOP candidate who is immigrant friendly will not get through the primaries. The white vote point shows how the GOP needs to reach out to win at general election level (though given tonight's result candidates of Dutch heritage need not apply)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Speedy Legally it may be possible, economically it would be a disaster
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Brilliant from Netherlands.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    On topic, the Electoral Commission might do well to ditch their major / minor party distinction and go for four categories:

    Major Party: one which stands a strong chance of forming the next government or being the next main party of opposition.

    Secondary Party: one which enjoys substantial support across the country but which is not likely to be in a position to provide either the PM or the Leader of the Opposition, or which is likely to provide a sufficient number of MPs to be a meaningful force in the new parliament.

    Minor Party: one which has a national presence but only limited support, or which is not a national party but which stands a reasonable chance of returning at least a modest number of MPs.

    Peripheral Party: one of very limited support, either in terms of geographic concentration or total votes.

    Coverage to be based on an approximate 5-3-1-0 basis.

    You'd have Con & Labour in Cat 1
    LD & UKIP in Cat 2 ?
    Greens, SNP, PC Cat 3 ?
    Merbyn Kernow, BNP Cat 4 ?

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Do the GOP have any putative candidates with a Dutch sounding name?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited June 2014
    David Herdson There will be no debate with Farage if the Greens are not also present, Cameron has made that absolutely clear, and he would be an idiot not to under FPTP allow a leftwing candidate to take Labour votes as much as UKIP take Tory. The Greens have an MP, a unitary council (both 1 more than UKIP) and they also overtook the LDs in the euros, there is no question a debate with UKIP has to have Bennett or Lucas too
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    On topic, the Electoral Commission might do well to ditch their major / minor party distinction and go for four categories:

    Major Party: one which stands a strong chance of forming the next government or being the next main party of opposition.

    Secondary Party: one which enjoys substantial support across the country but which is not likely to be in a position to provide either the PM or the Leader of the Opposition, or which is likely to provide a sufficient number of MPs to be a meaningful force in the new parliament.

    Minor Party: one which has a national presence but only limited support, or which is not a national party but which stands a reasonable chance of returning at least a modest number of MPs.

    Peripheral Party: one of very limited support, either in terms of geographic concentration or total votes.

    Coverage to be based on an approximate 5-3-1-0 basis.

    I see no reason to change the present format.

    Correctly UKIP were afforded major party status for the Euro elections and should they achieve a substantial block of MPs next May then it would be perfectly correct for them to enjoy major party status in May 2020.

    I'm unsure why we should substantially change the rules just for UKIP. Let them get plenty of bums on seats and then re-evaluate.

  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    @Speedy@5.47 pm (quotes not working for me).
    Evolution of the Fourth Reich.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    HYUFD said:

    JackW Indeed, but a Hispanic candidate would help, preferably of Mexican origin, maybe George P Bush. The problem is the GOP base is now much whiter and more anti immigration than the nation as a whole, so for the moment a GOP candidate who is immigrant friendly will not get through the primaries. The white vote point shows how the GOP needs to reach out to win at general election level (though given tonight's result candidates of Dutch heritage need not apply)

    Another Bush .... I think not.

    The essential issue is that GOP candidates have to track right in the primaries only to significantly compromise themselves for the months leading to the General Election.

    The question for them is not so much the how but the who and the when. Presently I see no viable GOP candidate that might square their circle.

    We require Great Uncle Smithson to work his magic, rub his head a dozen times, inspect the chicken entrails and come up with a 50/1 shot for a GOP Presidency.

    Might OGH do the double .... you wouldn't rule it out, would you ?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited June 2014
    Speedy Rubio's problem is he is Cuban, not Mexican, he is more in favour of immigration reform than the GOP as a whole
  • Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    edited June 2014



    However I can't see why you will vote UKIP in a search for a party with a coherent political dogma, as it is a party that claims to be libertarian while embracing palaeo-conservatives.

    Because the other three parties are amoral liberal secluarists. As far as I am concerned this is a Christian country and we have a Monarch who is defender of the faith and I don't like the fact that since the dreaded Roy Jenkins became home secretary both Labour and Tories have undermined this as it presented an obstacle to the persuit of self gratification by the elite.

    Yes UKIP had too many golf club tories, but they are broadening towards supporting the lower middle and skilled working class who have been abandoned by the other parties. The fact that Paul Nuttal, a practicing catholic and member of SPUC is their deputy leader speaks volumes.

    And of course UKIP are unambigously in favour of leaving the EU - I wouldn't trust Cameron further than I can throw him on his 2017 referendum promise.

    Oddly, if I had to vote for any of the other three I would actually vote Liberal because they are the only one of those parties that actually pay heed to the democratic wishes of their members. But if UKIP don't stand in my constituency I will probably write none of the above on the ballot paper - or join them and stand myself :-)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited June 2014
    Smarmeron Pieter Tjercks and Geertruyt Philips van Schuylder were very distant relatives of the Bushes apparently according to Google, the Roosevelts, including Theodore, came from the Netherlands
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    JackW Indeed, OGH did get Obama spot on. But George P, Jeb's son, is already running for Texas Land Commissioner this year and could use that as a springboard for governor, he will also have vast financial resources behind him, and when he does run it will probably be after Hillary, at which point the mood may be for a change
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Good evening.

    How the hell have we engineering a situation where the Conservatives are banging on about Europe again?

    Extraordinary.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    JackW said:

    On topic, the Electoral Commission might do well to ditch their major / minor party distinction and go for four categories:

    Major Party: one which stands a strong chance of forming the next government or being the next main party of opposition.

    Secondary Party: one which enjoys substantial support across the country but which is not likely to be in a position to provide either the PM or the Leader of the Opposition, or which is likely to provide a sufficient number of MPs to be a meaningful force in the new parliament.

    Minor Party: one which has a national presence but only limited support, or which is not a national party but which stands a reasonable chance of returning at least a modest number of MPs.

    Peripheral Party: one of very limited support, either in terms of geographic concentration or total votes.

    Coverage to be based on an approximate 5-3-1-0 basis.

    I see no reason to change the present format.

    Correctly UKIP were afforded major party status for the Euro elections and should they achieve a substantial block of MPs next May then it would be perfectly correct for them to enjoy major party status in May 2020.

    I'm unsure why we should substantially change the rules just for UKIP. Let them get plenty of bums on seats and then re-evaluate.

    It's ridiculous that coverage of parties in one electoral campaign should be based on the result of the last one. It would be like giving the Reform Party's Ross Perot no place at the debates in 1992. The media should cover those who are in the running this time round. Anything else is a deliberate bias against new parties.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789



    However I can't see why you will vote UKIP in a search for a party with a coherent political dogma, as it is a party that claims to be libertarian while embracing palaeo-conservatives.

    Because the other three parties are amoral liberal secluarists. As far as I am concerned this is a Christian country and we have a Monarch who is defender of the faith and I don't like the fact that since the dreaded Roy Jenkins became home secretary both Labour and Tories have undermined this as it presented an obstacle to the persuit of self gratification by the elite.

    Yes UKIP had too many golf club tories, but they are broadening towards supporting the lower middle and skilled working class who have been abandoned by the other parties. The fact that Paul Nuttal, a practicing catholic and member of SPUC is their deputy leader speaks volumes.

    And of course UKIP are unambigously in favour of leaving the EU - I wouldn't trust Cameron further than I can throw him on his 2017 referendum promise.

    Oddly, if I had to vote for any of the other three I would actually vote Liberal because they are the only one of those parties that actually pay heed to the democratic wishes of their members. But if UKIP don't stand in my constituency I will probably write none of the above on the ballot paper - or join them and stand myself :-)
    How can you accept someone who is placed there merely by accident of birth as defender of your faith?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''How the hell have we engineering a situation where the Conservatives are banging on about Europe again?''

    The tories shut up about Europe for a while, and UKIP exploded. Now the tories don't have much choice but to talk about Europe.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053



    However I can't see why you will vote UKIP in a search for a party with a coherent political dogma, as it is a party that claims to be libertarian while embracing palaeo-conservatives.

    Because the other three parties are amoral liberal secluarists. As far as I am concerned this is a Christian country and we have a Monarch who is defender of the faith and I don't like the fact that since the dreaded Roy Jenkins became home secretary both Labour and Tories have undermined this as it presented an obstacle to the persuit of self gratification by the elite.

    Yes UKIP had too many golf club tories, but they are broadening towards supporting the lower middle and skilled working class who have been abandoned by the other parties. The fact that Paul Nuttal, a practicing catholic and member of SPUC is their deputy leader speaks volumes.

    And of course UKIP are unambigously in favour of leaving the EU - I wouldn't trust Cameron further than I can throw him on his 2017 referendum promise.

    Oddly, if I had to vote for any of the other three I would actually vote Liberal because they are the only one of those parties that actually pay heed to the democratic wishes of their members. But if UKIP don't stand in my constituency I will probably write none of the above on the ballot paper - or join them and stand myself :-)
    Oh, well said sir, @Paul_Mid_Beds. You must join the Peoples Party after that fine statement of intent.
    http://join.ukip.org/JoinOnline.aspx?type=1
    We are almost at 40K, come and make up the numbers. ^^
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I'm off now for three months. I hope to see you all in the autumn. Have a good summer, everyone.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Socrates said:

    JackW said:

    On topic, the Electoral Commission might do well to ditch their major / minor party distinction and go for four categories:

    Major Party: one which stands a strong chance of forming the next government or being the next main party of opposition.

    Secondary Party: one which enjoys substantial support across the country but which is not likely to be in a position to provide either the PM or the Leader of the Opposition, or which is likely to provide a sufficient number of MPs to be a meaningful force in the new parliament.

    Minor Party: one which has a national presence but only limited support, or which is not a national party but which stands a reasonable chance of returning at least a modest number of MPs.

    Peripheral Party: one of very limited support, either in terms of geographic concentration or total votes.

    Coverage to be based on an approximate 5-3-1-0 basis.

    I see no reason to change the present format.

    Correctly UKIP were afforded major party status for the Euro elections and should they achieve a substantial block of MPs next May then it would be perfectly correct for them to enjoy major party status in May 2020.

    I'm unsure why we should substantially change the rules just for UKIP. Let them get plenty of bums on seats and then re-evaluate.

    It's ridiculous that coverage of parties in one electoral campaign should be based on the result of the last one. It would be like giving the Reform Party's Ross Perot no place at the debates in 1992. The media should cover those who are in the running this time round. Anything else is a deliberate bias against new parties.
    But thats JackW's idea of democracy; "I'm in the top seat, and you lesser types can just get lost" attitude says it all.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    HYUFD said:

    David Herdson There will be no debate with Farage if the Greens are not also present, Cameron has made that absolutely clear, and he would be an idiot not to under FPTP allow a leftwing candidate to take Labour votes as much as UKIP take Tory. The Greens have an MP, a unitary council (both 1 more than UKIP) and they also overtook the LDs in the euros, there is no question a debate with UKIP has to have Bennett or Lucas too

    Tbh why not. It will help PBers UKIP-LD match bets as the LDs bleed even more to the greens.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    antifrank said:

    I'm off now for three months. I hope to see you all in the autumn. Have a good summer, everyone.

    Where are you going?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    BobaFett said:

    Good evening.

    How the hell have we engineering a situation where the Conservatives are banging on about Europe again?

    Extraordinary.

    Because the European Parliament decided to have a huge power grab from national leaders? Do you think the UK should just not raise British concerns because it might help UKIP? Cameron took a moral and decent position here, while your Miliband was particularly craven, suggesting that he would have stopped Juncker through magic.
This discussion has been closed.