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  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS ****

    The breaking news is that WIND is reporting to the JNN the contents of the latest ARSE 2015 General Election and "JackW Dozen" Projections. (Change from 10th June Projection) :

    Con 312 (-3) .. Lab 274 (+3) .. LibDem 32 (+1) .. SNP 8 .. PC 2 .. NI 18 .. UKIP 2 (-1) .. Respect 0 .. Green 1 .. Ind 0 .. Speaker 1

    Conservatives 14 seats short of a majority
    ......................................................................................

    "JackW Dozen" - 13 seats that will shape the General Election result :

    Bury North - TCTC
    Pudsey - TCTC
    Broxtowe - Likely Lab Gain
    Warwickshire North - Likely Lab Gain
    Cambridge - Likely LibDem Hold
    Ipswich - TCTC
    Watford - TCTC
    Croydon Central - Likely Con Hold
    Enfield - TCTC (From Likely Con Hold)
    Cornwall North - TCTC
    Great Yarmouth - Likely Con Hold
    Vale of Glamorgan - Likely Con Hold
    Ochill and South Perthshire - TCTC

    Changes From 10th June - Enfield moves from Likely Con Hold to TCTC.

    TCTC - Too Close To Call - Less than 500 votes
    Likely Hold/Gain - 500 - 2500 votes
    Gain/Hold - Over 2500
    .......................................................................................

    WIND - Whimsical Independent News Division
    JNN - Jacobite News Network
    ARSE - Anonymous Random Selection of Electors

    I'd expect Pudsey to go to Labour - how come you have it TCTC ?
    In simple terms it's what the data from my ARSE reflects, in the same fashion and method that have proved so accurate in the past.

    If I might nudge you to recall this is a projection for May 2015 not now as polls and other projections reflect.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,703
    In the event of JackW’s ARSE coming true ....and yes I know it’s an assessment of “now” not a projection ..... there’s no way I can see the LD’s getting tied up with the Tories again.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS ****

    The breaking news is that WIND is reporting to the JNN the contents of the latest ARSE 2015 General Election and "JackW Dozen" Projections. (Change from 10th June Projection) :

    Con 312 (-3) .. Lab 274 (+3) .. LibDem 32 (+1) .. SNP 8 .. PC 2 .. NI 18 .. UKIP 2 (-1) .. Respect 0 .. Green 1 .. Ind 0 .. Speaker 1

    Conservatives 14 seats short of a majority
    ......................................................................................

    "JackW Dozen" - 13 seats that will shape the General Election result :

    Bury North - TCTC
    Pudsey - TCTC
    Broxtowe - Likely Lab Gain
    Warwickshire North - Likely Lab Gain
    Cambridge - Likely LibDem Hold
    Ipswich - TCTC
    Watford - TCTC
    Croydon Central - Likely Con Hold
    Enfield - TCTC (From Likely Con Hold)
    Cornwall North - TCTC
    Great Yarmouth - Likely Con Hold
    Vale of Glamorgan - Likely Con Hold
    Ochill and South Perthshire - TCTC

    Changes From 10th June - Enfield moves from Likely Con Hold to TCTC.

    TCTC - Too Close To Call - Less than 500 votes
    Likely Hold/Gain - 500 - 2500 votes
    Gain/Hold - Over 2500
    .......................................................................................

    WIND - Whimsical Independent News Division
    JNN - Jacobite News Network
    ARSE - Anonymous Random Selection of Electors

    I'd expect Pudsey to go to Labour - how come you have it TCTC ?
    In simple terms it's what the data from my ARSE reflects, in the same fashion and method that have proved so accurate in the past.

    If I might nudge you to recall this is a projection for May 2015 not now as polls and other projections reflect.

    Actually in those Fabian tables it stayed Blue so you could well be right.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    There is no way that LDs will do a S&C deal with LAB particularly if they have most seats on fewer votes.

    Very interesting post, Mike.

    As I've said in the past, there is a significant risk that the next GE may end up with a result where no stable government can be formed. The financial markets haven't yet woken up to this risk - in the past few months there have an increasing number of articles and analysts' research notes pointing to the political danger of GE2015, but almost always only in the context of how much of a danger Ed Miliband poses to our prosperity, not the danger of no effective government at all.
    Back to the polls for us if this occurs ?

    Would the DUP be happy working with Mr Miliband provided they get enough pork in their barrel do you think ?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    In the event of JackW’s ARSE coming true ....and yes I know it’s an assessment of “now” not a projection ..... there’s no way I can see the LD’s getting tied up with the Tories again.

    In the end as we all know it's a numbers game but for the sake of debate let's agree with 10 seats or so of my latest ARSE projection that the Con/LibDem total is 334/354 and a clear working majority.

    Why change horses ?

    What nationally realistically are the LIbDems for if not to be part of government and influencing events. It has been their essential strategy for decades and then suddenly at half time they decide it's all too difficult ?!?

    The strategy for the LibDems needs to be "we put the nation first" - It isn't a bad offering to place before the voters.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS ****

    The breaking news is that WIND is reporting to the JNN the contents of the latest ARSE 2015 General Election and "JackW Dozen" Projections. (Change from 10th June Projection) :

    Con 312 (-3) .. Lab 274 (+3) .. LibDem 32 (+1) .. SNP 8 .. PC 2 .. NI 18 .. UKIP 2 (-1) .. Respect 0 .. Green 1 .. Ind 0 .. Speaker 1

    Conservatives 14 seats short of a majority
    ......................................................................................

    "JackW Dozen" - 13 seats that will shape the General Election result :

    Bury North - TCTC
    Pudsey - TCTC
    Broxtowe - Likely Lab Gain
    Warwickshire North - Likely Lab Gain
    Cambridge - Likely LibDem Hold
    Ipswich - TCTC
    Watford - TCTC
    Croydon Central - Likely Con Hold
    Enfield - TCTC (From Likely Con Hold)
    Cornwall North - TCTC
    Great Yarmouth - Likely Con Hold
    Vale of Glamorgan - Likely Con Hold
    Ochill and South Perthshire - TCTC

    Changes From 10th June - Enfield moves from Likely Con Hold to TCTC.

    TCTC - Too Close To Call - Less than 500 votes
    Likely Hold/Gain - 500 - 2500 votes
    Gain/Hold - Over 2500
    .......................................................................................

    WIND - Whimsical Independent News Division
    JNN - Jacobite News Network
    ARSE - Anonymous Random Selection of Electors

    I'd expect Pudsey to go to Labour - how come you have it TCTC ?
    In simple terms it's what the data from my ARSE reflects, in the same fashion and method that have proved so accurate in the past.

    If I might nudge you to recall this is a projection for May 2015 not now as polls and other projections reflect.

    Actually in those Fabian tables it stayed Blue so you could well be right.
    It has been known ....

    Titter ....

  • Pulpstar said:

    May 2014 local election results.

    Stevenage: Con 30%, Lab 36%, LD 9%, UKIP 21%, Green 2%
    Milton Keynes South: Con 28%, Lab 30%, LD 12%, UKIP 22%, Green 7%
    Crawley: Con 36%, Lab 40%, LD 2%, UKIP 19%, Green 1%
    Reading West: Con 24%, Lab 46%, LD 12%, UKIP 6%, Green 9%

    http://www.fabians.org.uk/election-2014-the-numbers/

    Just put £15 on Labour Reading West @ 11-4 - Had a look back at previous elections and it does seem to be very swingy. In fact in 2001 you could regard it as a safe seat for Labour !

    Those local election results do seem to be very good for Labour too there.
    Pulpstar - just to warn you that those Fabian figures are based only on the Reading wards of Reading West and exclude the West Berkshire wards, which did not vote this year. The West Berks wards are much more friendly to the Tories. Personally I don't see Miliband being able to win over enough "Blair Tories" to take this back.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,703
    See what you mean, Mr W, but I think it would be a very hard deal to negotiate. On both sides!

    However, what I really hope is that neither Lab or Tories feel it appropriate to rely on the DUP!
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @GIN

    No. All Labour are saying is that DOR be allowed to bid for franchises as they come up. They already run ECML successfully. Meanwhile, that well-known lefty Boris is enthusiastically renationalising the West Anglia Line from Liverpool St to Enfield/Chingford.

    Reds under the bed everywhere these days it seems!!!
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Privatisation has meant:

    - A better safety record
    - A better punctuality record
    - Nicer trains
    - More passengers
    - More investment
    - Lower subsidy per passenger mile

    What's not to like? Those arguing for nationalisation are basically arguing for wealthy come county commuters to be subsidised by the taxpayer so they can live more affordably in the suburbs.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited June 2014

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    And that flight is an open, first class ticket, is it?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    There is no way that LDs will do a S&C deal with LAB particularly if they have most seats on fewer votes.

    Very interesting post, Mike.

    As I've said in the past, there is a significant risk that the next GE may end up with a result where no stable government can be formed. The financial markets haven't yet woken up to this risk - in the past few months there have an increasing number of articles and analysts' research notes pointing to the political danger of GE2015, but almost always only in the context of how much of a danger Ed Miliband poses to our prosperity, not the danger of no effective government at all.
    What do you think the likelihood of 2015 having two general elections is ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Socrates said:

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    And that flight is an open, first class ticket, is it?
    Sadly BA don't do first class on that journey.

    An open standard return train ticket is close to £200
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited June 2014
    I'm going to take the 5/1 on Jimmy

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle 3m

    Next Permanent England Test Capt: 7/4 Ian Bell, 3/1 Stuart Broad, 5 James Anderson, Matt Prior, 10 Eoin Morgan, 20 Joe Root, 33 Sam Robson.


    Edit: Jimmy is 8/1 with Paddy Power.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    See what you mean, Mr W, but I think it would be a very hard deal to negotiate. On both sides!

    However, what I really hope is that neither Lab or Tories feel it appropriate to rely on the DUP!

    Post election last time commentators thought the deal would be intractable, lengthy and fraught with difficulties. However as I expected both sides were extremely pragmatic and the personal relationships between the two negotiating teams were cordial.

    I'm not too sure it would be much different next time, after all what's the realistic and viable alternative on those figures ?

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    And that flight is an open, first class ticket, is it?
    Sadly BA don't do first class on that journey.

    An open standard return train ticket is close to £200
    Surely a restricted standard ticket would be the fair comparison?
  • HopiSenHopiSen Posts: 48

    Financier said:
    He's something of a Labour movement icon - a bit like Thatcher for many Tories - as he's seen as having effected a lasting change in society (the NHS) as well as managing an obviously difficult situation with calm and dignity. That said, he did lose the third time round, so Miliband might need to worry about the 2025 election. :-)

    In reality he was vehemently opposed by the left at the time, notably by the Tony Benn of his day, Harold Laski, but these things blur in the rosy mists of hindsight.
    I was tempted to tease Luke by pointing out that Clem's first GE as leader was 1935, which saw Labour make major gains against an increasingly discredited Tory-led coalition, but still lose by a pretty clear margin. But then I thought this would annoy him, rather than make him smile.

    Most of these historical comparisons are a bit silly - I tend to pay attention to the tracking data for LOTO as it's at least comparable, but I couldn't really tell you what it 'means', if anything.

    Popular leaders of popular oppositions are popular, unpopular leaders of unpopular oppositions are unpopular. It's what happens in the other two cases that's a bit messy!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Pulpstar said:

    May 2014 local election results.

    Stevenage: Con 30%, Lab 36%, LD 9%, UKIP 21%, Green 2%
    Milton Keynes South: Con 28%, Lab 30%, LD 12%, UKIP 22%, Green 7%
    Crawley: Con 36%, Lab 40%, LD 2%, UKIP 19%, Green 1%
    Reading West: Con 24%, Lab 46%, LD 12%, UKIP 6%, Green 9%

    http://www.fabians.org.uk/election-2014-the-numbers/

    Just put £15 on Labour Reading West @ 11-4 - Had a look back at previous elections and it does seem to be very swingy. In fact in 2001 you could regard it as a safe seat for Labour !

    Those local election results do seem to be very good for Labour too there.
    Pulpstar - just to warn you that those Fabian figures are based only on the Reading wards of Reading West and exclude the West Berkshire wards, which did not vote this year. The West Berks wards are much more friendly to the Tories. Personally I don't see Miliband being able to win over enough "Blair Tories" to take this back.
    Fair enough - looks like its worth a punt though.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    What do you think the likelihood of 2015 having two general elections is ?

    Very hard to say, there are lots of uncertainties. First of all there would to be a hung parliament (say 50% chance), and then we'd have to guess what the LibDems, or possibly the DUP, would do. I take Jack's point about why the LibDems should want to continue the coalition, but, even if the arithmetic makes this possible, it's not clear to me that the LibDem party would accept even if the top echelons wanted to. Equally Cameron would have an uphill struggle selling another coalition to the Conservative Party. Alternatively, we could end up with a situation where neither of Con+LD or Lab+LD has a majority, or we could end up with Lab+LD arithmetically possible. In the latter case, it's going to be a bit odd for the LibDems to enter a new coalition undoing much of what they just done, so that doesn't look an easy deal either even if Labour wanted it.

    Putting all that together, the chance of a minority government must be fairly high - maybe 20% at a guess?

    I don't think a minority government would be at all stable, but that doesn't mean it would collapse in 2015; it might struggle on in increasing chaos until the other parties jointly decided it was in their interests to switch off the life-support machine. When that moment would come is anyone's guess.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,703
    JackW said:

    See what you mean, Mr W, but I think it would be a very hard deal to negotiate. On both sides!

    However, what I really hope is that neither Lab or Tories feel it appropriate to rely on the DUP!

    Post election last time commentators thought the deal would be intractable, lengthy and fraught with difficulties. However as I expected both sides were extremely pragmatic and the personal relationships between the two negotiating teams were cordial.

    I'm not too sure it would be much different next time, after all what's the realistic and viable alternative on those figures ?

    Agree, Mr (or should it be Sir?) W on both counts. However, I suspect that the remaining LD’s would want a harder bargain this time, and a segment of the Tories would be even more intractable!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    HopiSen said:


    Most of these historical comparisons are a bit silly - I tend to pay attention to the tracking data for LOTO as it's at least comparable, but I couldn't really tell you what it 'means', if anything.

    Popular leaders of popular oppositions are popular, unpopular leaders of unpopular oppositions are unpopular. It's what happens in the other two cases that's a bit messy!

    Hi Hopi - yes, there's an apolitical statistical point that we wouldn't dream of drawing any conclusions about something complex for which we only had a dozen or so postwar data points. The current position is actually nothing like anything we've experienced - coalition, strong fourth party, etc. - and history doesn't tell us anything very useful at all.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Hi Hopi - yes, there's an apolitical statistical point that we wouldn't dream of drawing any conclusions about something complex for which we only had a dozen or so postwar data points. The current position is actually nothing like anything we've experienced - coalition, strong fourth party, etc. - and history doesn't tell us anything very useful at all.

    Not quite - it tells us one very, very useful thing, namely that opinions polls this far out are a poor predictor of the final result, a conclusion which is especially robust because you reach the same conclusion looking at other countries.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    The problem about some kind of coalition next time is that Nick Clegg´s decision would not be enough. Any agreement for Lib Dem support would also have to win the support of a Lib Dem Conference before it could go ahead. I feel this would be somewhat unlikely.

    Personally, I would be opposed to any kind of coalition, and also to informal support arrangements. Unless there were considerable inducement, of course, such as the other party agreeing to implement the entire Lib Dem manifesto as government policy!

    Reply to Jack´s comment:

    Post election last time commentators thought the deal would be intractable, lengthy and fraught with difficulties. However as I expected both sides were extremely pragmatic and the personal relationships between the two negotiating teams were cordial.

    I'm not too sure it would be much different next time, after all what's the realistic and viable alternative on those figures ?
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    Socrates said:

    Privatisation has meant:

    - A better safety record
    - A better punctuality record
    - Nicer trains
    - More passengers
    - More investment
    - Lower subsidy per passenger mile

    What's not to like? Those arguing for nationalisation are basically arguing for wealthy come county commuters to be subsidised by the taxpayer so they can live more affordably in the suburbs.

    You don't understand the system at all, that is clear. The public subsidy now is far higher than under BR, franchising is already funded by general taxation. The difference is that we privatise the gains and socialise the losses. As Max points out below.

    @TSE so it should be, given the huge hike in the public subsidy!
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    See what you mean, Mr W, but I think it would be a very hard deal to negotiate. On both sides!

    However, what I really hope is that neither Lab or Tories feel it appropriate to rely on the DUP!

    Post election last time commentators thought the deal would be intractable, lengthy and fraught with difficulties. However as I expected both sides were extremely pragmatic and the personal relationships between the two negotiating teams were cordial.

    I'm not too sure it would be much different next time, after all what's the realistic and viable alternative on those figures ?

    Agree, Mr (or should it be Sir?) W on both counts. However, I suspect that the remaining LD’s would want a harder bargain this time, and a segment of the Tories would be even more intractable!
    I'm not a baronet or knight. Jack is fine.

    I don't doubt the usual suspects will huff, puff and vent beautifully for the media but will the Conservatives in particular want a weak minority administration limping from week to week ? - I doubt it.

    And whisper it quietly but both sides have actually got on rather well in government knowing that pragmatically there wasn't much option and they each got decent chunks of what they wanted.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited June 2014
    Hmm... I wonder if the 2015 GE results may well look like the 2005 ones. Switch around some UKIP/LD but the general Conservative/Labour battle in England.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    PClipp said:

    The problem about some kind of coalition next time is that Nick Clegg´s decision would not be enough. Any agreement for Lib Dem support would also have to win the support of a Lib Dem Conference before it could go ahead. I feel this would be somewhat unlikely.

    Personally, I would be opposed to any kind of coalition, and also to informal support arrangements. Unless there were considerable inducement, of course, such as the other party agreeing to implement the entire Lib Dem manifesto as government policy!

    Reply to Jack´s comment:

    Post election last time commentators thought the deal would be intractable, lengthy and fraught with difficulties. However as I expected both sides were extremely pragmatic and the personal relationships between the two negotiating teams were cordial.

    I'm not too sure it would be much different next time, after all what's the realistic and viable alternative on those figures ?

    You are Michael Meadowcroft and I decline five "Focus" leaflets every week !!

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    How about...

    Renationalise the railways
    Charge the market rate for fares
    Remove Gov't subsidies from the rails.
    Reinvest all profits into the railways
  • I'm going to take the 5/1 on Jimmy

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle 3m

    Next Permanent England Test Capt: 7/4 Ian Bell, 3/1 Stuart Broad, 5 James Anderson, Matt Prior, 10 Eoin Morgan, 20 Joe Root, 33 Sam Robson.


    Edit: Jimmy is 8/1 with Paddy Power.

    The way Jimmy bowled yesterday afternoon, that would be akin to giving Cook the captaincy now. If Cook was old. It is why I think Cook will stay. Sacking him means surely giving it to Bell as he's the only man certain to keep his place until the next Ashes. Nobody else has any form over a decent period.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,686
    edited June 2014
    Socrates said:

    Privatisation has meant:

    - A better safety record
    - A better punctuality record
    - Nicer trains
    - More passengers
    - More investment
    - Lower subsidy per passenger mile

    What's not to like? Those arguing for nationalisation are basically arguing for wealthy come county commuters to be subsidised by the taxpayer so they can live more affordably in the suburbs.

    - Fewer strikes
    - A more frequent service
    - Cleaner, and more comfortable trains
    - Better real-time information
    - More railway jobs
    - Politer staff

    Those arguing for renationalisation tend to fall into three camps:

    The first are the social conservatives who get sentimental about the 'British' in British Rail, and hark back to a patriotic golden age of British Railways that never really existed (Mail/Express/Hitches).

    The second are socialists who have always detested privatisation, recognise that rail is one where there's still a debate and they might get a bite at it, and hope to use it as a Trojan horse to support further renationalisations (Trade Unions, Mirror, Christian Wolmar etc)

    Third is the balance of the public who have convinced themselves (incorrectly) that their local rail service would be better and cheaper if the railways were again under public ownership.
  • Tories must be disappointed that the polling has moved against them in the past month. Hard to see why though the latest EU posturing does look faintly tragic.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    I'm going to take the 5/1 on Jimmy

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle 3m

    Next Permanent England Test Capt: 7/4 Ian Bell, 3/1 Stuart Broad, 5 James Anderson, Matt Prior, 10 Eoin Morgan, 20 Joe Root, 33 Sam Robson.


    Edit: Jimmy is 8/1 with Paddy Power.

    The way Jimmy bowled yesterday afternoon, that would be akin to giving Cook the captaincy now. If Cook was old. It is why I think Cook will stay. Sacking him means surely giving it to Bell as he's the only man certain to keep his place until the next Ashes. Nobody else has any form over a decent period.
    I understand that, I was thinking they may give it to the most experienced player in the team ( I know Bell has more test caps, but Jimmy's been around since 2002)

    Think Bob Willis in the 80s, let Bell concentrate on his batting.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    The Lib Dems must be pretty active in your area, Jack, if they offer you five Focus leaflets a week for you to decline!

    But perhaps you mean they leave one in each letterbox of your Highland mansion?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,686
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    And that flight is an open, first class ticket, is it?
    Sadly BA don't do first class on that journey.

    An open standard return train ticket is close to £200
    Surely a restricted standard ticket would be the fair comparison?
    Only around 2-3% of passengers use such tickets, mainly business travellers. The UK has some of the most expensive tickets for 'turn-up and go' instant, long-distance travel, at peak times. However, it also has some of the cheapest for tickets booked/reserved in advance. The latter are far more heavily used than the former.

    £200 is more than I'd like to pay; however, once you start adding extra journey/waiting time, parking and/or taxis to/from the airport it probably doesn't compare too unfavourably with flying. Plus, you can work through Wi-Fi and make telephone calls.

    It seems to be the market operating as it should be to me.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    PClipp said:

    Personally, I would be opposed to any kind of coalition, and also to informal support arrangements. Unless there were considerable inducement, of course, such as the other party agreeing to implement the entire Lib Dem manifesto as government policy!

    It will never happen, imho - I fear unless the Lib Dems win a general election outright, which is unlikely, you are doomed to disappointment.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited June 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    How about...

    Renationalise the railways
    Charge the market rate for fares
    Remove Gov't subsidies from the rails.
    Reinvest all profits into the railways

    1. Privatize the whole operation under one company - 20 year franchise.
    2. OfRail to oversee.
    3. Sorted ....
    4. Next ....


  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,336
    BobaFett said:

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    Socrates said:

    Privatisation has meant:

    - A better safety record
    - A better punctuality record
    - Nicer trains
    - More passengers
    - More investment
    - Lower subsidy per passenger mile

    What's not to like? Those arguing for nationalisation are basically arguing for wealthy come county commuters to be subsidised by the taxpayer so they can live more affordably in the suburbs.

    You don't understand the system at all, that is clear. The public subsidy now is far higher than under BR, franchising is already funded by general taxation. The difference is that we privatise the gains and socialise the losses. As Max points out below.

    @TSE so it should be, given the huge hike in the public subsidy!
    There's also the issue of safety problems caused by de-nationalisation and fragmentation, and the reduction in service after Hatfield and in bad weather because the commercial companies were more worried about money (and to be fair also legal action) than service.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    PClipp said:

    The Lib Dems must be pretty active in your area, Jack, if they offer you five Focus leaflets a week for you to decline!

    But perhaps you mean they leave one in each letterbox of your Highland mansion?

    Quite the opposite.

    Yellow peril canvassers are an endangered species thereabouts and seem to be put off by the humorous notice by various gates :

    "LibDem Canvassers Will be Eaten" ....



  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Far too much reliance on the bogus empiricism of SMERSH,ARSE and any number of other "systems" on this site.I am reminded of the similar snake-oil salesmen in the horse racing world selling guaranteed riches from their particular system.
    In today's changed political environment it might just pay to remain an eclectic contrarian.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    What do you think the likelihood of 2015 having two general elections is ?

    Very hard to say, there are lots of uncertainties. First of all there would to be a hung parliament (say 50% chance), and then we'd have to guess what the LibDems, or possibly the DUP, would do. I take Jack's point about why the LibDems should want to continue the coalition, but, even if the arithmetic makes this possible, it's not clear to me that the LibDem party would accept even if the top echelons wanted to. Equally Cameron would have an uphill struggle selling another coalition to the Conservative Party. Alternatively, we could end up with a situation where neither of Con+LD or Lab+LD has a majority, or we could end up with Lab+LD arithmetically possible. In the latter case, it's going to be a bit odd for the LibDems to enter a new coalition undoing much of what they just done, so that doesn't look an easy deal either even if Labour wanted it.

    Putting all that together, the chance of a minority government must be fairly high - maybe 20% at a guess?

    I don't think a minority government would be at all stable, but that doesn't mean it would collapse in 2015; it might struggle on in increasing chaos until the other parties jointly decided it was in their interests to switch off the life-support machine. When that moment would come is anyone's guess.
    The problem with the two elections in 2015 theory is the Fixed Term Parliament Act. This effectively takes away the option that Harold Wilson had in 1974 to call a second general election in the year.

    There are provisions in the act to allow a general election but that requires the cooperation of enough parties to produce a two-thirds majority agreeing to the notion. Why should they do that?

    The act could be repealed but that would require enough MPs to get it though and why should opposition parties give back the power to choose election dates to the PM?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2014
    Its not different than survation's nationwide polls, LD falling 15% nationwide here 15.2% and hitting the zero bound, Tories falling 8.7 survation has them falling 10% nationwide, the only differences are that Labour is up more than the survation national figures and UKIP by less but its London (LAB rising 5.9% survation nationwide rising 2% and UKIP rising 15.4% and nationwide 20%).

    The big problem for the LD is that any lower and they are going to hit the zero bound in so many seats that it will be difficult to keep up with the zulu strategy.

    As for renationalising the railways, the problem is as always you can't have many train companies on the same line, in the 19th century train companies built their own lines many next to each other to compete but today you can't do that so its either a private monopoly or a public monopoly on a regional or national scale.

    Since private monopolies always tend to misuse their position to increase prices beyond a reasonable point, the only solution is a public monopoly.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Far too much reliance on the bogus empiricism of SMERSH,ARSE and any number of other "systems" on this site.I am reminded of the similar snake-oil salesmen in the horse racing world selling guaranteed riches from their particular system.
    In today's changed political environment it might just pay to remain an eclectic contrarian.

    How very dare you madam.

    You have the temerity to compare untried new kids on the block to my own venerated and exquisitely formed, tried and tested ARSE.

    Be gone with you, dastardly wretch and infest ConHome for a week !!

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    I'm going to take the 5/1 on Jimmy

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle 3m

    Next Permanent England Test Capt: 7/4 Ian Bell, 3/1 Stuart Broad, 5 James Anderson, Matt Prior, 10 Eoin Morgan, 20 Joe Root, 33 Sam Robson.


    Edit: Jimmy is 8/1 with Paddy Power.

    Brave. England have had a permanent bowling captain since Bob Willis, or, if we include the summer of 4 captains, John Emburey.
    Jimmy is clinging on to get Sir Ian's record and the 400 and he will hang up his boots. After Ashes 2015 I would imagine. Broad a better bet but he's a moody little Mary. Bell the continuity option, Prior the right choice.
    Morgan isn't an option, he's Irish and shite at test match cricket, Root isn't secure in his slot and Sam Robson is the captain after next.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    That's haven't had....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Far too much reliance on the bogus empiricism of SMERSH,ARSE and any number of other "systems" on this site.I am reminded of the similar snake-oil salesmen in the horse racing world selling guaranteed riches from their particular system.
    In today's changed political environment it might just pay to remain an eclectic contrarian.

    If you want to make money on the horses, follow @Raceclear at advised prices. You have to be quick to get on at the correct prices though.

    I think paying for a tipster is probably likely to end up in a loss, unless you have an appetite for large stakes and the consequential variance - however bookies look out for each way backers where the place price should in reality be under evens but is over. Too many £25 E/W on good 4-1 -> 10-1 shots in 8 horse races and you're barred ! Martin Bishop Racing spams up my facebook alot, I've heard he is pretty awful though.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2014


    The problem with the two elections in 2015 theory is the Fixed Term Parliament Act. This effectively takes away the option that Harold Wilson had in 1974 to call a second general election in the year.

    There are provisions in the act to allow a general election but that requires the cooperation of enough parties to produce a two-thirds majority agreeing to the notion. Why should they do that?

    Not quite, because there are two different ways in which a general election can be held early:

    - If the House of Commons resolves "That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government", an early general election is held, unless the House of Commons subsequently resolves "That this House has confidence in Her Majesty's Government". This second resolution must be made within fourteen days of the first.

    - If the House of Commons, with the support of two-thirds of its total membership (including vacant seats), resolves "That there shall be an early parliamentary general election".


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011

    It is the first of these mechanisms, needing only 50% excluding abstentions, which in practice the opposition parties would be likely to use to kill off a minority government and provoke an election. Alternatively, the minority government could engineer a confidence motion and abstain on it (curious, but it would work).
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    BobaFett said:

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    Socrates said:

    Privatisation has meant:

    - A better safety record
    - A better punctuality record
    - Nicer trains
    - More passengers
    - More investment
    - Lower subsidy per passenger mile

    What's not to like? Those arguing for nationalisation are basically arguing for wealthy come county commuters to be subsidised by the taxpayer so they can live more affordably in the suburbs.

    You don't understand the system at all, that is clear. The public subsidy now is far higher than under BR, franchising is already funded by general taxation. The difference is that we privatise the gains and socialise the losses. As Max points out below.

    @TSE so it should be, given the huge hike in the public subsidy!
    The absolute level of subsidy may have gone up, but the subsidy per unit of output, the only sensible measure, has decreased.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    What do you think the likelihood of 2015 having two general elections is ?

    Very hard to say, there are lots of uncertainties. First of all there would to be a hung parliament (say 50% chance), and then we'd have to guess what the LibDems, or possibly the DUP, would do. I take Jack's point about why the LibDems should want to continue the coalition, but, even if the arithmetic makes this possible, it's not clear to me that the LibDem party would accept even if the top echelons wanted to. Equally Cameron would have an uphill struggle selling another coalition to the Conservative Party. Alternatively, we could end up with a situation where neither of Con+LD or Lab+LD has a majority, or we could end up with Lab+LD arithmetically possible. In the latter case, it's going to be a bit odd for the LibDems to enter a new coalition undoing much of what they just done, so that doesn't look an easy deal either even if Labour wanted it.

    Putting all that together, the chance of a minority government must be fairly high - maybe 20% at a guess?

    I don't think a minority government would be at all stable, but that doesn't mean it would collapse in 2015; it might struggle on in increasing chaos until the other parties jointly decided it was in their interests to switch off the life-support machine. When that moment would come is anyone's guess.
    The problem with the two elections in 2015 theory is the Fixed Term Parliament Act. This effectively takes away the option that Harold Wilson had in 1974 to call a second general election in the year.

    There are provisions in the act to allow a general election but that requires the cooperation of enough parties to produce a two-thirds majority agreeing to the notion. Why should they do that?

    The act could be repealed but that would require enough MPs to get it though and why should opposition parties give back the power to choose election dates to the PM?
    If no party is able to provide stable government, Her Majesty will dissolve parliament. Simples.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited June 2014

    I'm going to take the 5/1 on Jimmy

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle 3m

    Next Permanent England Test Capt: 7/4 Ian Bell, 3/1 Stuart Broad, 5 James Anderson, Matt Prior, 10 Eoin Morgan, 20 Joe Root, 33 Sam Robson.


    Edit: Jimmy is 8/1 with Paddy Power.

    Brave. England have had a permanent bowling captain since Bob Willis, or, if we include the summer of 4 captains, John Emburey.
    Jimmy is clinging on to get Sir Ian's record and the 400 and he will hang up his boots. After Ashes 2015 I would imagine. Broad a better bet but he's a moody little Mary. Bell the continuity option, Prior the right choice.
    Morgan isn't an option, he's Irish and shite at test match cricket, Root isn't secure in his slot and Sam Robson is the captain after next.
    Prior's keeping has become rubbish, and his batting in the last year has been shite, and in that injury problem he's got, then he's not going to last long as a player, so deffo not captain.

    Anderson's a Burnley lad, and chaps from Burnley are awesome, and good at leading, be it at cricket or running a website.

    Being awesome from Burnley is an impressive achievement, considering Burnley is in Lancashire
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited June 2014
    Edited because I misread Mike's post.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    Phone hacking - Brooks not guilty. Coulson guilty on one charge.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    England successfully negotiate the first hour at Headingley.

    Clouds gathering ....

    A very sparse crowd, indeed the overall attendance has been poor.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    I'm going to take the 5/1 on Jimmy

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle 3m

    Next Permanent England Test Capt: 7/4 Ian Bell, 3/1 Stuart Broad, 5 James Anderson, Matt Prior, 10 Eoin Morgan, 20 Joe Root, 33 Sam Robson.


    Edit: Jimmy is 8/1 with Paddy Power.

    Brave. England have had a permanent bowling captain since Bob Willis, or, if we include the summer of 4 captains, John Emburey.
    Jimmy is clinging on to get Sir Ian's record and the 400 and he will hang up his boots. After Ashes 2015 I would imagine. Broad a better bet but he's a moody little Mary. Bell the continuity option, Prior the right choice.
    Morgan isn't an option, he's Irish and shite at test match cricket, Root isn't secure in his slot and Sam Robson is the captain after next.
    Prior's keeping has become rubbish, and his batting in the last year has been shite, and in that injury problem he's got, then he's not going to last long as a player, so deffo not captain.

    Anderson's a Burnley lad, and chaps from Burnley are awesome, and good at leading, be it at cricket or running a website.

    Being awesome from Burnley is an impressive achievement, considering Burnley is in Lancashire
    Jimmy is a God. but he should have got the job when Strauss went. Now is not the time, he needs to focus on keeping it together for another year and a bit.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Rebekah Brooks found not guilty on all charges

    Coulson found guilty of phone hacking
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779
    Wow, Brookes innocent, Coulson guilty...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    On the trains another factor is who runs the franchise.

    I suspect given a forced choice Virgin would overwhelmingly be ahead of First as a preferred operator.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Socrates said:

    Edited because I misread Mike's post.

    And if no party can command supply and confidence in minority, the QS will be voted down which provokes an election.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Carnyx said:

    BobaFett said:

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    Socrates said:

    Privatisation has meant:

    - A better safety record
    - A better punctuality record
    - Nicer trains
    - More passengers
    - More investment
    - Lower subsidy per passenger mile

    What's not to like? Those arguing for nationalisation are basically arguing for wealthy come county commuters to be subsidised by the taxpayer so they can live more affordably in the suburbs.

    You don't understand the system at all, that is clear. The public subsidy now is far higher than under BR, franchising is already funded by general taxation. The difference is that we privatise the gains and socialise the losses. As Max points out below.

    @TSE so it should be, given the huge hike in the public subsidy!
    There's also the issue of safety problems caused by de-nationalisation and fragmentation, and the reduction in service after Hatfield and in bad weather because the commercial companies were more worried about money (and to be fair also legal action) than service.
    This is ideology rather than empiricism. The number of fatal accidents has continued to fall:

    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42865000/gif/_42865491_fatal_accidents2_416gr.gif
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779
    Coulson guilty only on one count?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    In business class, really?

    But if price is such an important factor, why don't you fly instead of taking the train?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,686
    BobaFett said:

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    Socrates said:

    Privatisation has meant:

    - A better safety record
    - A better punctuality record
    - Nicer trains
    - More passengers
    - More investment
    - Lower subsidy per passenger mile

    What's not to like? Those arguing for nationalisation are basically arguing for wealthy come county commuters to be subsidised by the taxpayer so they can live more affordably in the suburbs.

    You don't understand the system at all, that is clear. The public subsidy now is far higher than under BR, franchising is already funded by general taxation. The difference is that we privatise the gains and socialise the losses. As Max points out below.

    @TSE so it should be, given the huge hike in the public subsidy!
    Yes, that's one of the most commonly quoted facts that is used to support this ridiculous myth.

    (1) Subsidies are determined in relation to the income the network makes and spends on its passengers. Both revenue and passenger use are up massively since privatisation. Passenger use has more than doubled. If you compare current subsidies as a % of total revenue, current levels compare to those in the last few years of British Rail's existence. There is no clear increasing trend:

    https://fullfact.org/factchecks/taxpayer_subsidy_train_network_nationalisation-3391

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/264679/tsgb-2013.pdf

    (2) A lot of the increase is down to big increases in spending to repair and refurbish the rail network following years of underinvestment during nationalisation post Hatfield/Potters Bar. It is worth bearing in mind BR used to get fed scraps from the Treasury table once all the more important government departments had been allocated their funding.

    (3) A sizeable chunk of the increase in investment in loss-making infrastructure, including the opening and upgrading of old railway lines. This was a policy pursued by the previous Labour governmental to encourage a modal shift from road. Examples include reopening and electrifying railway lines in South Wales:

    http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/why-are-rail-subsidies-so-high

    Those making the argument for renationalisation tend to hang their hats on the point that fares would be cheaper, subsidies would be lower *and* overall performance better with a public owned railway.

    There is no absolutely no evidence for this.

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Rebekah Brooks found not guilty on all charges

    Coulson found guilty of phone hacking

    Interesting - and I wonder how much has this trial cost the Tax payer?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    2 elections in a year.

    That would do wonders for this site. Think of the betting opportunities ! A chance for more profits...
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Can we talk about phone hacking now?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Sexy red innocent. Nice
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779

    Rebekah Brooks found not guilty on all charges

    Coulson found guilty of phone hacking

    Interesting - and I wonder how much has this trial cost the Tax payer?
    Add in the entire cost of the Leveson inquiry as well

    Wonder where that leaves that?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    And that flight is an open, first class ticket, is it?
    Sadly BA don't do first class on that journey.

    An open standard return train ticket is close to £200
    Surely a restricted standard ticket would be the fair comparison?
    Only around 2-3% of passengers use such tickets, mainly business travellers. The UK has some of the most expensive tickets for 'turn-up and go' instant, long-distance travel, at peak times. However, it also has some of the cheapest for tickets booked/reserved in advance. The latter are far more heavily used than the former.

    £200 is more than I'd like to pay; however, once you start adding extra journey/waiting time, parking and/or taxis to/from the airport it probably doesn't compare too unfavourably with flying. Plus, you can work through Wi-Fi and make telephone calls.

    It seems to be the market operating as it should be to me.
    Yes, but we're not trying to work out the typical cost of a ticket. We're comparing it to the cost of flights. Flights are almost always restricted tickets, so you should compare a restricted ticket on the rail. The fact that railways have a widely-used option to pay a slight premium above this price to have flexibility is a further argument for rail over flights.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Freggles said:

    Can we talk about phone hacking now?

    Yes, been on the phone to Mike, the plan was always to lift the restriction once the verdicts were in. Everyone, just be careful what you say, especially about people who have been found not guilty, and those who haven't been charged
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    What do you think the likelihood of 2015 having two general elections is ?

    Very hard to say, there are lots of uncertainties. First of all there would to be a hung parliament (say 50% chance), and then we'd have to guess what the LibDems, or possibly the DUP, would do. I take Jack's point about why the LibDems should want to continue the coalition, but, even if the arithmetic makes this possible, it's not clear to me that the LibDem party would accept even if the top echelons wanted to. Equally Cameron would have an uphill struggle selling another coalition to the Conservative Party. Alternatively, we could end up with a situation where neither of Con+LD or Lab+LD has a majority, or we could end up with Lab+LD arithmetically possible. In the latter case, it's going to be a bit odd for the LibDems to enter a new coalition undoing much of what they just done, so that doesn't look an easy deal either even if Labour wanted it.

    Putting all that together, the chance of a minority government must be fairly high - maybe 20% at a guess?

    I don't think a minority government would be at all stable, but that doesn't mean it would collapse in 2015; it might struggle on in increasing chaos until the other parties jointly decided it was in their interests to switch off the life-support machine. When that moment would come is anyone's guess.
    The problem with the two elections in 2015 theory is the Fixed Term Parliament Act. This effectively takes away the option that Harold Wilson had in 1974 to call a second general election in the year.

    There are provisions in the act to allow a general election but that requires the cooperation of enough parties to produce a two-thirds majority agreeing to the notion. Why should they do that?

    The act could be repealed but that would require enough MPs to get it though and why should opposition parties give back the power to choose election dates to the PM?
    Again the problem with a fixed parliament act is denial of supply and demand, a government that doesn't have a majority in the house can't operate the day to day business effectively or not at all and you can't get rid of them easily with this act.
    The act is impractical and it only exists in order to prevent the LD from blackmailing the Tories with an early election, it keeps coalitions stable but it is a source of instability with a minority government so it will be abolished sooner or later.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Got on the draw yesterday £50 at 8/1 just after lunch

    In my eyes its pissin down what do they mean light drizzle!!!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Charles said:

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    In business class, really?

    But if price is such an important factor, why don't you fly instead of taking the train?
    there is no business class on the plane, just economy.

    I'd rather trap an appendage in the door, than fly economy.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited June 2014
    Oh goody.

    Another Murdochathon on pb.com

    Will Ed go crawling back?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Got on the draw yesterday £50 at 8/1 just after lunch

    In my eyes its pissin down what do they mean light drizzle!!!

    It is trading at 2.6 on Betfair right now fyi.
  • "Anderson's a Burnley lad, and chaps from Burnley are awesome, and good at leading, be it at cricket or running a website."

    Crawler!
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Wow, Brookes innocent, Coulson guilty...

    By pure coincidence something about the size of fish coming in mind.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    I am not at all surprised by the hacking verdicts. The case against Rebekah Brooks always looked feeble to me - it was entirely circumstantial.

    The Coulson 'Do his phone' email, on the other hand, was pretty damning.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    RB not going down!!

    Charlie will be disappointed!!

    ooh err vicar
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    New Thread
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,686
    Speedy said:

    Its not different than survation's nationwide polls, LD falling 15% nationwide here 15.2% and hitting the zero bound, Tories falling 8.7 survation has them falling 10% nationwide, the only differences are that Labour is up more than the survation national figures and UKIP by less but its London (LAB rising 5.9% survation nationwide rising 2% and UKIP rising 15.4% and nationwide 20%).

    The big problem for the LD is that any lower and they are going to hit the zero bound in so many seats that it will be difficult to keep up with the zulu strategy.

    As for renationalising the railways, the problem is as always you can't have many train companies on the same line, in the 19th century train companies built their own lines many next to each other to compete but today you can't do that so its either a private monopoly or a public monopoly on a regional or national scale.

    Since private monopolies always tend to misuse their position to increase prices beyond a reasonable point, the only solution is a public monopoly.

    Nonsense. There is plenty of competition between rail companies on primary intercity routes (London to the North/Scotland - West Coast/East Coast/Midland/Chiltern) as well as between transport modes - road, air, bus, or not travelling at all - as well as the form where rail companies both operate on the same lines. There are lots of ways rail companies can fight to increase both their absolute passenger numbers and market share.

    Even if that was not the case, there are plenty of alternative models for operating successful infrastructure assets. A regulated private sector (such as we have at the moment in gas, electricity, water, aviation and telecommunications) is an eminently workable in rail as well, and much more likely to be responsive to passenger needs and more efficient that a lumbering bureaucratic nationalised monopoly.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @Casino_Royale

    Even in absolute terms - ignoring the huge increase in passengers - the rail subsidy is falling quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if it goes down to below 94/95 levels in the next few years:

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmtran/329/32901.gif
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    NB: the jury, which has been considering verdicts since Wednesday, June 11, is still considering further charges against Coulson and former NotW royal editor Clive Goodman of conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office by paying police officers for two royal directories.

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/24/andy-coulson-found-guilty-of-phone-hacking-live-coverage
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,686
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    As a frequent user of rail in this country, pre and post privatisation, the changes have been undoubtedly for the better.

    I think where a lot of people have issues is the prices of tickets, which compared to Europe and America, mile for mile, is a lot more expensive.

    My second frequent journey is Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an open first class ticket costs close to £400.

    Flying Manchester to London is around £100.

    And that flight is an open, first class ticket, is it?
    Sadly BA don't do first class on that journey.

    An open standard return train ticket is close to £200
    Surely a restricted standard ticket would be the fair comparison?
    Only around 2-3% of passengers use such tickets, mainly business travellers. The UK has some of the most expensive tickets for 'turn-up and go' instant, long-distance travel, at peak times. However, it also has some of the cheapest for tickets booked/reserved in advance. The latter are far more heavily used than the former.

    £200 is more than I'd like to pay; however, once you start adding extra journey/waiting time, parking and/or taxis to/from the airport it probably doesn't compare too unfavourably with flying. Plus, you can work through Wi-Fi and make telephone calls.

    It seems to be the market operating as it should be to me.
    Yes, but we're not trying to work out the typical cost of a ticket. We're comparing it to the cost of flights. Flights are almost always restricted tickets, so you should compare a restricted ticket on the rail. The fact that railways have a widely-used option to pay a slight premium above this price to have flexibility is a further argument for rail over flights.
    No need for the "but". I don't disagree with any of that.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    I am not at all surprised by the hacking verdicts. The case against Rebekah Brooks always looked feeble to me - it was entirely circumstantial.

    The Coulson 'Do his phone' email, on the other hand, was pretty damning.

    Well they say that madam Justice maybe blind but she is not deaf.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2014

    Speedy said:

    Its not different than survation's nationwide polls, LD falling 15% nationwide here 15.2% and hitting the zero bound, Tories falling 8.7 survation has them falling 10% nationwide, the only differences are that Labour is up more than the survation national figures and UKIP by less but its London (LAB rising 5.9% survation nationwide rising 2% and UKIP rising 15.4% and nationwide 20%).

    The big problem for the LD is that any lower and they are going to hit the zero bound in so many seats that it will be difficult to keep up with the zulu strategy.

    As for renationalising the railways, the problem is as always you can't have many train companies on the same line, in the 19th century train companies built their own lines many next to each other to compete but today you can't do that so its either a private monopoly or a public monopoly on a regional or national scale.

    Since private monopolies always tend to misuse their position to increase prices beyond a reasonable point, the only solution is a public monopoly.

    Nonsense. There is plenty of competition between rail companies on primary intercity routes (London to the North/Scotland - West Coast/East Coast/Midland/Chiltern) as well as between transport modes - road, air, bus, or not travelling at all - as well as the form where rail companies both operate on the same lines. There are lots of ways rail companies can fight to increase both their absolute passenger numbers and market share.

    Even if that was not the case, there are plenty of alternative models for operating successful infrastructure assets. A regulated private sector (such as we have at the moment in gas, electricity, water, aviation and telecommunications) is an eminently workable in rail as well, and much more likely to be responsive to passenger needs and more efficient that a lumbering bureaucratic nationalised monopoly.
    What about the suburban to city center rail transport, and don't forget rail not buses or planes.
    You can have a great number of buses on the roads and planes in the sky but with trains it is restricted by the number of rail lines.
    Don't you go to other sectors since the others can have as many electricity or gas or water or phone providers as they like, as long as they are not physically limited by the network again (and I can complain about water and gas prices).

    And you just reminded me of a story I read in Private Eye about a bus owner increasing fares to fund his canadian operations, so there is plenty to complain about everything.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    edited June 2014
    TGOHF said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    SeanT said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_P said:

    Carnyx said:


    Actually, they're quite interested in HSR between Edinburgh and Glasgow and working outwards from there.

    Right, but they are going to build it at zero cost?

    No, so your "savings' on high speed rail are mythical, like all the SNP fiscal plans.
    You aren't listening. Dependence, we pay 1.4 billion to help London get to Brum quicker. Independence, we don't. That is absolutely independent (to coin a phrase) of what we do in Scotland.

    Why the F should English taxpayers fork out for an entirely unjustified high speed railway between England and a barely populated, mainly frozen, midge infested, impossibly remote, hideously declining, blatantly hostile, repulsively socialist foreign country - i.e. independent Scotland?

    What's in it for us? Nothing. That's what. As long as you are part of Britain, you get the benefits of generous, sunbathed southerners in a good mood. If you leave, you become the Faroe Islands with a bit of coal in the scuttle and a history of spitting in our faces.

    I doubt Anglo-Scottish transport connections will IMPROVE in that context, unless you pay for everything and give us droit du seigneur. Again.
    Classic Unionist argument, in that it completely forgets to say what happens if we vote no. Which is, we don't get a HS2 line over the border anyway for 1-2 generations, so no difference there, and we end up paying for the London-Brum line. And, with the cuts and waste, a lot less of decent railway within Scotland itself.

    Classic whiner argument forgetting all the investment made in Scotland - what do us Englanders get for that apart from to and from our shooting estates quicker.

    You've lost the ref - move on.
    First the Bangkok bar crawler talks mince and now his cretinous little acolyte tries to justify his pathetic drunken post. You low lifes really need to take a look in the mirror.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    SeanT said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_P said:

    Carnyx said:


    Actually, they're quite interested in HSR between Edinburgh and Glasgow and working outwards from there.

    Right, but they are going to build it at zero cost?

    No, so your "savings' on high speed rail are mythical, like all the SNP fiscal plans.
    You aren't listening. Dependence, we pay 1.4 billion to help London get to Brum quicker. Independence, we don't. That is absolutely independent (to coin a phrase) of what we do in Scotland.

    Why the F should English taxpayers fork out for an entirely unjustified high speed railway between England and a barely populated, mainly frozen, midge infested, impossibly remote, hideously declining, blatantly hostile, repulsively socialist foreign country - i.e. independent Scotland?

    What's in it for us? Nothing. That's what. As long as you are part of Britain, you get the benefits of generous, sunbathed southerners in a good mood. If you leave, you become the Faroe Islands with a bit of coal in the scuttle and a history of spitting in our faces.

    I doubt Anglo-Scottish transport connections will IMPROVE in that context, unless you pay for everything and give us droit du seigneur. Again.
    Classic Unionist argument, in that it completely forgets to say what happens if we vote no. Which is, we don't get a HS2 line over the border anyway for 1-2 generations, so no difference there, and we end up paying for the London-Brum line. And, with the cuts and waste, a lot less of decent railway within Scotland itself.

    Classic whiner argument forgetting all the investment made in Scotland - what do us Englanders get for that apart from to and from our shooting estates quicker.

    You've lost the ref - move on.
    First the Bangkok bar crawler talks mince and now his cretinous little acolyte tries to justify his pathetic drunken post. You low lifes really need to take a look in the mirror.
    Miserable little ingrate. Scotland doesn't need recent third rate implants like you.
This discussion has been closed.