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  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Sean_F
    "It generally determines historical outcomes."

    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?

    It shows the importance of maintaining adequate defences.

    I think to Cameron and his modern Conservative party it shows the need for increasing the size of the DfID budget even more and cutting defence back further.

    P.S. Had to laugh the other day when it was suggested that the UK might send 25 tanks to an exercise in Poland this summer. It would help to make a statement to Russia and deter it from taking further action against the Ukraine, apparently. Yeah, right, 25 tanks is going to really put the wind up Russia's sails. Then there was the Russian Navy battlegroup sailing through the Channel the other week - we sent an air defence ship to escort it, our ship had no anti-ship weapons on board, save a single gun. Why bother? The Russians could have blown our ship out of the water, turned left and occupied London without breaking a sweat. Capabilities are not intentions and all that, fair go, but, really, the state of our defences are now so pathetic we might as well not bother.
    You are doing the same mistake as the soviets did in the cold war, defence spending and military exercises don't matter when the primary weapons the other guy has are nukes.
    You can waste billions and trillions on conventional weapons but they won't deter any nuclear power, also the alliances are clear from the NATO side so no state is going to attack NATO due to America, Britain and France having nukes.
    You can happy drive your self to bankruptcy soviet style by defence spending based on useless paranoia that they other side is poised to invade any moment now.

    To give you an idea that the russians know this and laugh (TSE might love this one):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTbL1hH19BE&feature=kp
    You think that nuclear strike should be the first and only response to an attack? I mean really? Do you actually want to take time and maybe think?
    That is the protocol in case the Russians or the Chinese or any other nuclear power attacks NATO.
    It will be the first and only response since most of the world would blow up within an hour, that is why there has been no major war between great powers since 1945, nuclear weapons makes it to costly for war as a policy option (clue, which of these 3 states has america invaded and which one is the only one without WMD's : Iran, N.Korea, Iraq).
    What happens if a non-nuclear power attacks? Do we nuke them?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    @TheWatcher

    Sorry you added this extra bit into your post after I replied:

    "You're also assuming that there was nothing following Ivan, underneath the waves...)"

    Yes I am, because I can count up to seven. Or is it six now, HMS Tireless decommissioned last week and the Astutes are years behind the replacement plan.


    I take great comfort from the knowledge that you'll be fighting them off on the beaches with the rest of Dad's Army.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779

    OT EU, another mention of Hague as potential UK Commissioner:
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/11/david-cameron-europe-jean-claude-juncker?CMP=twt_gu

    To show he is serious about reforming the EU, the prime minister should instead suggest a heavy-hitter for the job. The best may be William Hague. The foreign secretary knows the European scene inside out. And unlike, say, Michael Gove or Theresa May, he probably doesn't hope to be replacing Cameron as prime minister – and so may not mind being sent to Brussels for five years. This is not the last time Cameron will need to negotiate with the EU. But it's not just his future that depends on it; so does ours.
    On the theory that Juncker can't be shifted so Cameron needs a lollipop, the UK have to send a big politician so they can take one of the big jobs.

    Why did we send Baroness Aston then?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Speedy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Sean_F
    "It generally determines historical outcomes."

    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?

    It shows the importance of maintaining adequate defences.

    I think to Cameron and his modern Conservative party it shows the need for increasing the size of the DfID budget even more and cutting defence back further.

    P.S. Had to laugh the other day when it was suggested that the UK might send 25 tanks to an exercise in Poland this summer. It would help to make a statement to Russia and deter it from taking further action against the Ukraine, apparently. Yeah, right, 25 tanks is going to really put the wind up Russia's sails. Then there was the Russian Navy battlegroup sailing through the Channel the other week - we sent an air defence ship to escort it, our ship had no anti-ship weapons on board, save a single gun. Why bother? The Russians could have blown our ship out of the water, turned left and occupied London without breaking a sweat. Capabilities are not intentions and all that, fair go, but, really, the state of our defences are now so pathetic we might as well not bother.
    You are doing the same mistake as the soviets did in the cold war, defence spending and military exercises don't matter when the primary weapons the other guy has are nukes.
    You can waste billions and trillions on conventional weapons but they won't deter any nuclear power, also the alliances are clear from the NATO side so no state is going to attack NATO due to America, Britain and France having nukes.
    You can happy drive your self to bankruptcy soviet style by defence spending based on useless paranoia that they other side is poised to invade any moment now.

    To give you an idea that the russians know this and laugh (TSE might love this one):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTbL1hH19BE&feature=kp
    Using, or threatening to use, nuclear weapons in response to every threat, would not be desirable. That's why one needs adequate conventional forces.

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262



    Assuming the Admiral Kuznetsov hadn't broken down at Tilbury. It's knackered - has to be escorted everywhere by a salvage tug.

    I like the idea of the Russkies declaring war by sinking a British Destroyer - how many NATO aircraft do you think would pick them off in the Channel before they'd even made it into the Thames Estuary?

    Why, if it could not even offer battle, the RN think it necessary to escort an Russian squadron through the Channel is an interesting question.

    Because they normally do. As a courtesy, and an excuse to watch them at close quarters.
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    ToryJim said:

    James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook · 3 hrs
    Alex Salmond says he's ordered his special advisor to apologise for briefing against a mother backing the union. #indyref

    ooops

    Shouldn't the Spad be fired?
    Am I the only person here who can't read the word Spad without thinking of a French biplane?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Sean_F
    "It generally determines historical outcomes."

    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?

    It shows the importance of maintaining adequate defences.

    Ir.
    Y
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTbL1hH19BE&feature=kp
    You think that nuclear strike should be the first and only response to an attack? I mean really? Do you actually want to take time and maybe think?
    That is the protocol in case the Russians or the Chinese or any other nuclear power attacks NATO.
    It will be the first and only response since most of the world would blow up within an hour, that is why there has been no major war between great powers since 1945, nuclear weapons makes it to costly for war as a policy option (clue, which of these 3 states has america invaded and which one is the only one without WMD's : Iran, N.Korea, Iraq).
    What happens if a non-nuclear power attacks? Do we nuke them?
    Absolutely we do.

    Is a tragedy that we have nuclear weapons and never tested them in war.

    It's like buying an expensive pair of shoes and never wearing them.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    @TheWatcher

    Sorry you added this extra bit into your post after I replied:

    "You're also assuming that there was nothing following Ivan, underneath the waves...)"

    Yes I am, because I can count up to seven. Or is it six now, HMS Tireless decommissioned last week and the Astutes are years behind the replacement plan.


    I take great comfort from the knowledge that you'll be fighting them off on the beaches with the rest of Dad's Army.
    P*ss off, I'll be in the saloon bar of the New Inn wondering why apparently sensible people can't actually engage in a debate.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    ToryJim said:

    James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook · 3 hrs
    Alex Salmond says he's ordered his special advisor to apologise for briefing against a mother backing the union. #indyref

    ooops

    Shouldn't the Spad be fired?
    Am I the only person here who can't read the word Spad without thinking of a French biplane?
    No, not at all (with overtones of Skyraiders in the Vietnam War as well). I find it a very irritating condensation for that reason - I keep thinking of Georges Guynemer and the Lafayette Escadrille.

  • JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: New TNS BMRB poll out - No maintains its double-digit lead. Analysis from @WhatScotsThink here http://t.co/2dXrpq11U9

    59/41 No/YES when DK's excluded.

    YES remain dead in the water, completely becalmed.

    Tick tock ....

    ***** Betting Post *****

    That 41% 'Yes' figure after excluding Don't Knows makes Ladbrokes' offer of 9/2 for their 35% - 40% 'Yes' vote band appear very attractive indeed imho, especially when one considers this is a whopping great 50% improvement on Victor Chandler's 3/1 odds for his LOWER and NARROWER 35% - 39% 'Yes' vote band.
    I'm on but DYOR!
    Cheers Peter, I'm on.

    Also, I checked Betfair last night. There was still £80 or so of cash available to back turnout at 75%+ on the Indy Ref at 2.1 (or evens in old money, after commission)

    That beats the less generous 5/6 available at Ladbrokes, which is also for a higher level match line at 78%.
    Casino - Yes, that's great value vs Ladbrokes for Betfair's Indy Turnout and to be pedantic, 2.1 is actually 1.045/1 in old money .... every little helps. You can of course also ask for that little bit more with Betfair and often get it if you're prepared to be patient.

    As regards the Yes vote, I suspect that like "shy" Tories, there may be an element of "shy" No voters who won't admit as much to the pollsters - if so, the Yes vote could finish lower still, perhaps not too far distant from Laddies' 30% - 35% band for which they offer odds of 10/1. Not likely admittedly, but possibly worth a couple of quid as a saver.

  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2014

    Speedy said:



    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?




    What happens if a non-nuclear power attacks? Do we nuke them?

    The Falklands war is an example, but how many non nuclear enemies can attack the British Isles? In my estimation none (if you exclude Spain and Germany that are in NATO).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: New TNS BMRB poll out - No maintains its double-digit lead. Analysis from @WhatScotsThink here http://t.co/2dXrpq11U9

    59/41 No/YES when DK's excluded.

    YES remain dead in the water, completely becalmed.

    Tick tock ....

    ***** Betting Post *****

    That 41% 'Yes' figure after excluding Don't Knows makes Ladbrokes' offer of 9/2 for their 35% - 40% 'Yes' vote band appear very attractive indeed imho, especially when one considers this is a whopping great 50% improvement on Victor Chandler's 3/1 odds for his LOWER and NARROWER 35% - 39% 'Yes' vote band.
    I'm on but DYOR!
    Cheers Peter, I'm on.

    Also, I checked Betfair last night. There was still £80 or so of cash available to back turnout at 75%+ on the Indy Ref at 2.1 (or evens in old money, after commission)

    That beats the less generous 5/6 available at Ladbrokes, which is also for a higher level match line at 78%.
    Casino - Yes, that's great value vs Ladbrokes for Betfair's Indy Turnout and to be pedantic, 2.1 is actually 1.045/1 in old money .... every little helps. You can of course also ask for that little bit more with Betfair and often get it if you're prepared to be patient.

    As regards the Yes vote, I suspect that like "shy" Tories, there may be an element of "shy" No voters who won't admit as much to the pollsters - if so, the Yes vote could finish lower still, perhaps not too far distant from Laddies' 30% - 35% band for which they offer odds of 10/1. Not likely admittedly, but possibly worth a couple of quid as a saver.

    There's one risk I foresee, if the polls maintain their current levels of substantial No leads, then some voters might think it is in the bag, and not bother to turnout and vote on the big day.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    ToryJim said:

    James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook · 3 hrs
    Alex Salmond says he's ordered his special advisor to apologise for briefing against a mother backing the union. #indyref

    ooops

    Shouldn't the Spad be fired?
    Am I the only person here who can't read the word Spad without thinking of a French biplane?
    PS It's also the acronym for Signal Passed At Danger, a major railway safety incident for obvious reasons. Perhaps that is how Mr Jessop perceives it.

  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: New TNS BMRB poll out - No maintains its double-digit lead. Analysis from @WhatScotsThink here http://t.co/2dXrpq11U9

    59/41 No/YES when DK's excluded.

    YES remain dead in the water, completely becalmed.

    Tick tock ....

    ***** Betting Post *****

    That 41% 'Yes' figure after excluding Don't Knows makes Ladbrokes' offer of 9/2 for their 35% - 40% 'Yes' vote band appear very attractive indeed imho, especially when one considers this is a whopping great 50% improvement on Victor Chandler's 3/1 odds for his LOWER and NARROWER 35% - 39% 'Yes' vote band.
    I'm on but DYOR!
    Cheers Peter, I'm on.

    Also, I checked Betfair last night. There was still £80 or so of cash available to back turnout at 75%+ on the Indy Ref at 2.1 (or evens in old money, after commission)

    That beats the less generous 5/6 available at Ladbrokes, which is also for a higher level match line at 78%.
    Casino - Yes, that's great value vs Ladbrokes for Betfair's Indy Turnout and to be pedantic, 2.1 is actually 1.045/1 in old money .... every little helps. You can of course also ask for that little bit more with Betfair and often get it if you're prepared to be patient.

    As regards the Yes vote, I suspect that like "shy" Tories, there may be an element of "shy" No voters who won't admit as much to the pollsters - if so, the Yes vote could finish lower still, perhaps not too far distant from Laddies' 30% - 35% band for which they offer odds of 10/1. Not likely admittedly, but possibly worth a couple of quid as a saver.

    There's one risk I foresee, if the polls maintain their current levels of substantial No leads, then some voters might think it is in the bag, and not bother to turnout and vote on the big day.
    Differential turnout won't overturn a 20 point lead.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:



    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?




    What happens if a non-nuclear power attacks? Do we nuke them?
    The Falklands war is an example, but how many non nuclear enemies can attack the British Isles? In my estimation none (if you exclude Spain and Germany that are in NATO).

    Are there not suggestions that The Maggon was considering a strike against the Argentinian mainland?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    ToryJim said:

    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: New TNS BMRB poll out - No maintains its double-digit lead. Analysis from @WhatScotsThink here http://t.co/2dXrpq11U9

    59/41 No/YES when DK's excluded.

    YES remain dead in the water, completely becalmed.

    Tick tock ....

    ***** Betting Post *****

    That 41% 'Yes' figure after excluding Don't Knows makes Ladbrokes' offer of 9/2 for their 35% - 40% 'Yes' vote band appear very attractive indeed imho, especially when one considers this is a whopping great 50% improvement on Victor Chandler's 3/1 odds for his LOWER and NARROWER 35% - 39% 'Yes' vote band.
    I'm on but DYOR!
    Cheers Peter, I'm on.

    Also, I checked Betfair last night. There was still £80 or so of cash available to back turnout at 75%+ on the Indy Ref at 2.1 (or evens in old money, after commission)

    That beats the less generous 5/6 available at Ladbrokes, which is also for a higher level match line at 78%.
    Casino - Yes, that's great value vs Ladbrokes for Betfair's Indy Turnout and to be pedantic, 2.1 is actually 1.045/1 in old money .... every little helps. You can of course also ask for that little bit more with Betfair and often get it if you're prepared to be patient.

    As regards the Yes vote, I suspect that like "shy" Tories, there may be an element of "shy" No voters who won't admit as much to the pollsters - if so, the Yes vote could finish lower still, perhaps not too far distant from Laddies' 30% - 35% band for which they offer odds of 10/1. Not likely admittedly, but possibly worth a couple of quid as a saver.

    There's one risk I foresee, if the polls maintain their current levels of substantial No leads, then some voters might think it is in the bag, and not bother to turnout and vote on the big day.
    Differential turnout won't overturn a 20 point lead.
    But it will affect overall turnout, which is what the bet is on.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708


    On the money issue, I think you are being over generous. Without serious dosh to spend nobody stands a chance of getting anywhere in the US system and I read that the same, albeit on a much smaller scale, is now the case for a prospective MP in the UK.

    TBF the candidate who just unseated the House Majority Leader spent a grand total of $122,793 on the whole campaign, while his opponent went through $168,637 in his steak house bill alone.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    ToryJim said:

    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: New TNS BMRB poll out - No maintains its double-digit lead. Analysis from @WhatScotsThink here http://t.co/2dXrpq11U9

    59/41 No/YES when DK's excluded.

    YES remain dead in the water, completely becalmed.

    Tick tock ....

    ***** Betting Post *****

    That 41% 'Yes' figure after excluding Don't Knows makes Ladbrokes' offer of 9/2 for their 35% - 40% 'Yes' vote band appear very attractive indeed imho, especially when one considers this is a whopping great 50% improvement on Victor Chandler's 3/1 odds for his LOWER and NARROWER 35% - 39% 'Yes' vote band.
    I'm on but DYOR!
    Cheers Peter, I'm on.

    Also, I checked Betfair last night. There was still £80 or so of cash available to back turnout at 75%+ on the Indy Ref at 2.1 (or evens in old money, after commission)

    That beats the less generous 5/6 available at Ladbrokes, which is also for a higher level match line at 78%.
    Casino - Yes, that's great value vs Ladbrokes for Betfair's Indy Turnout and to be pedantic, 2.1 is actually 1.045/1 in old money .... every little helps. You can of course also ask for that little bit more with Betfair and often get it if you're prepared to be patient.

    As regards the Yes vote, I suspect that like "shy" Tories, there may be an element of "shy" No voters who won't admit as much to the pollsters - if so, the Yes vote could finish lower still, perhaps not too far distant from Laddies' 30% - 35% band for which they offer odds of 10/1. Not likely admittedly, but possibly worth a couple of quid as a saver.

    There's one risk I foresee, if the polls maintain their current levels of substantial No leads, then some voters might think it is in the bag, and not bother to turnout and vote on the big day.
    Differential turnout won't overturn a 20 point lead.
    But it will affect overall turnout, which is what the bet is on.
    True
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    @Obitus

    "UKIPs vote is highest among the over-65s, most of whom will be retired."

    A lot of them will be dead - although as our Northern Ireland posters can testify, that is not necessarily an exclusion from voting.

    I've been wondering whether to hunt out some actuarial tables to adjust my "Four to Forgo Forgetting" constituency predictions for 2015.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Sean_F
    "It generally determines historical outcomes."

    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?

    It shows the importance of maintaining adequate defences.

    Ir.
    Y
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTbL1hH19BE&feature=kp
    You think that nuclear strike should be the first and only response to an attack? I mean really? Do you actually want to take time and maybe think?
    That is the protocol in case the Russians or the Chinese or any other nuclear power attacks NATO.
    It will be the first and only response since most of the world would blow up within an hour, that is why there has been no major war between great powers since 1945, nuclear weapons makes it to costly for war as a policy option (clue, which of these 3 states has america invaded and which one is the only one without WMD's : Iran, N.Korea, Iraq).
    What happens if a non-nuclear power attacks? Do we nuke them?
    Absolutely we do.

    Is a tragedy that we have nuclear weapons and never tested them in war.

    It's like buying an expensive pair of shoes and never wearing them.
    There is a reason why nukes have not being used since 1945, one of them is that nuclear war is too costly (blowing up the planet), the second is political, if everyone used nukes in the little wars since 1945 from Korea to Libya then it would be an acceptable weapon of war increasing the chances of its use in a big war that would lead to literally The End.
    That and CND would look like a picnic compared with the fallout (political and radioactive) on using nukes on third world peasants on a regular basis.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:



    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?




    What happens if a non-nuclear power attacks? Do we nuke them?
    The Falklands war is an example, but how many non nuclear enemies can attack the British Isles? In my estimation none (if you exclude Spain and Germany that are in NATO).
    Are there not suggestions that The Maggon was considering a strike against the Argentinian mainland?

    Again, too costly politically that's why she didn't do it.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098


    On the money issue, I think you are being over generous. Without serious dosh to spend nobody stands a chance of getting anywhere in the US system and I read that the same, albeit on a much smaller scale, is now the case for a prospective MP in the UK.

    TBF the candidate who just unseated the House Majority Leader spent a grand total of $122,793 on the whole campaign, while his opponent went through $168,637 in his steak house bill alone.
    You don't think $122,792 lying around in after-tax income is serious dosh. I salute you Mr Tokyo and wish that perhaps I had gone into educational software.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    @Speedy‌
    Wasn't there some crazy neocon idea to develop theatre specific mini nukes so they could vaporise a platoon or two without destroying all life for 500 miles around for the next 2million years.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Smarmeron said:

    @Sean_F
    "It generally determines historical outcomes."

    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?

    I always remember my history teacher expounding that violence never solved anything. It made me wonder whether she'd ever actually read any history at all.

    As the meme has it: "if violence doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it".
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2014
    ToryJim said:

    @Speedy‌
    Wasn't there some crazy neocon idea to develop theatre specific mini nukes so they could vaporise a platoon or two without destroying all life for 500 miles around for the next 2million years.

    Yes, but neocons have bad relations with science.
    It couldn't be done because of Einstein, even the smallest fraction of mass releases a lot of energy but the lower mass limit for nuclear fission will make it very uncertain that mini nukes could explode.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    Speedy said:

    ToryJim said:

    @Speedy‌
    Wasn't there some crazy neocon idea to develop theatre specific mini nukes so they could vaporise a platoon or two without destroying all life for 500 miles around for the next 2million years.

    Yes, but neocons have bad relations with science.
    Well quite
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:



    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?


    What happens if a non-nuclear power attacks? Do we nuke them?
    The Falklands war is an example, but how many non nuclear enemies can attack the British Isles? In my estimation none (if you exclude Spain and Germany that are in NATO).

    None? Well OK, then lets build successor class and bin the entire armed forces save four submarines. Save a lot of mucking about as well as money.

    Just a thought, what are you going to do when the third LNG ship from Qatar doesn't arrive because some bugger, don't know who but can guess, keeps sinking them all?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708


    On the money issue, I think you are being over generous. Without serious dosh to spend nobody stands a chance of getting anywhere in the US system and I read that the same, albeit on a much smaller scale, is now the case for a prospective MP in the UK.

    TBF the candidate who just unseated the House Majority Leader spent a grand total of $122,793 on the whole campaign, while his opponent went through $168,637 in his steak house bill alone.
    You don't think $122,792 lying around in after-tax income is serious dosh. I salute you Mr Tokyo and wish that perhaps I had gone into educational software.
    IIUC the UK constituency election spending limit is something like $50,000, which I don't think it's unusual to reach? And those constituencies are much teensier than US Congressional districts.

    In this case the guy apparently put in $1000 or so himself, and raised the rest in donations.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    OT EU, another mention of Hague as potential UK Commissioner:
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/11/david-cameron-europe-jean-claude-juncker?CMP=twt_gu

    To show he is serious about reforming the EU, the prime minister should instead suggest a heavy-hitter for the job. The best may be William Hague. The foreign secretary knows the European scene inside out. And unlike, say, Michael Gove or Theresa May, he probably doesn't hope to be replacing Cameron as prime minister – and so may not mind being sent to Brussels for five years. This is not the last time Cameron will need to negotiate with the EU. But it's not just his future that depends on it; so does ours.
    On the theory that Juncker can't be shifted so Cameron needs a lollipop, the UK have to send a big politician so they can take one of the big jobs.

    I assumed Juncker would be shifted at this point. It's just a question of who the compromise candidate is. I saw a mention of Reinfeldt the other day, which would be a huge win for Cameron. If it's Juncker on the other hand, it would be devastating for Cameron - he has all his allies behind him, Germany on the fence, plus a couple of other countries too. If he loses in this situation, when will he ever win?
  • John_M said:

    I always remember my history teacher expounding that violence never solved anything. It made me wonder whether she'd ever actually read any history at all.

    As the meme has it: "if violence doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it".

    As Frederick I Barbarossa said in 1155, "I am the legitimate emperor. Let him who can snatch the club from the hand of Hercules!"
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    The GOP labour under three considerable disadvantages in regaining the White House of which only one, the first below, appears recoverable presently.

    1. Choosing a viable candidate who hasn't been badly compromised in the primaries.

    2. Hostility toward and from a fast growing Hispanic population.

    3. Significant Democrat favouring demographic changes in Virginia, Florida, New Mexico, Colorado and Nevada currently and more long term in Arizona, Texas and North Carolina.

    2 and 3 being linked in some states.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited June 2014
    ToryJim said:

    @Speedy‌
    Wasn't there some crazy neocon idea to develop theatre specific mini nukes so they could vaporise a platoon or two without destroying all life for 500 miles around for the next 2million years.

    Neocon? The US had nuclear artillery shells in the 50s and 60s. What fun! They also had nuclear free-flight rockets and depth charges.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2014
    @HurstLlama

    You mean a terrorist group or a country?
    As for the armed forces, Britain is an Island and its overseas territories are mostly Islands or with large coastlines too, so the only thing you need is a strong airforce and a strong navy with a token army and of course your nukes (you can't be a great power without nukes).
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @John_M

    Nuclear landmines? now there is an amazing idea!
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    Just noticed that San Antonio Mayor Julian Castro has been tapped as next HUD Secretary. Wonder if that's to give him national experience as a tee up for a slot on the ticket?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    John_M said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Sean_F
    "It generally determines historical outcomes."

    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?

    I always remember my history teacher expounding that violence never solved anything. It made me wonder whether she'd ever actually read any history at all.

    As the meme has it: "if violence doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it".
    Maybe she was thinking of Gandhiji's supposed saying "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind." Except he never actually said it.

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Gandhi
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    Trident didn't deter 9/11 or 7/7.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited June 2014
    ''Germany on the fence, plus a couple of other countries too. If he loses in this situation, when will he ever win?''

    A serious question - how big do you think dave would have to win to eat into the softest kipper votes??
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    John_M said:

    ToryJim said:

    @Speedy‌
    Wasn't there some crazy neocon idea to develop theatre specific mini nukes so they could vaporise a platoon or two without destroying all life for 500 miles around for the next 2million years.

    Neocon? The US had nuclear artillery shells in the 50s and 60s. What fun! They also had nuclear free-flight rockets and depth charges.
    All in the kiloton and megaton range, those are proper nukes not mini.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    Trident didn't deter 9/11 or 7/7.

    No but there is a suspicion that before GW1 Saddam was told that if he used chemical weapons there would be nuclear retaliation.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Smarmeron said:

    @John_M

    Nuclear landmines? now there is an amazing idea!

    They had nuclear landmines in W.Germany for the duration of the cold war.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Well, I admire the fact he had the balls to say this

    Danny Alexander: Lib Dems could be biggest party by 2025

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-danny-alexander-lib-dems-could-be-biggest-party-2025
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Socrates said:


    I assumed Juncker would be shifted at this point. It's just a question of who the compromise candidate is. I saw a mention of Reinfeldt the other day, which would be a huge win for Cameron. If it's Juncker on the other hand, it would be devastating for Cameron - he has all his allies behind him, Germany on the fence, plus a couple of other countries too. If he loses in this situation, when will he ever win?

    The problem with this one is that there's no way to split the difference between "the candidate of the winning party gets the job" and "the candidate of the winning party doesn't get the job". One side or the other has to lose, and it's most likely to be the side that doesn't have enough votes to make a blocking minority.

    I'm not denying that the "renegotiation" thing is bollocks designed to take advantage of gullible people, but if it's a matter of something like getting his fair share of appointments he's not at any particular disadvantage.
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477



    Assuming the Admiral Kuznetsov hadn't broken down at Tilbury. It's knackered - has to be escorted everywhere by a salvage tug.

    I like the idea of the Russkies declaring war by sinking a British Destroyer - how many NATO aircraft do you think would pick them off in the Channel before they'd even made it into the Thames Estuary?

    Mr. Watcher, my point was that the RN couldn't have done anything worthwhile against a Russian Naval Battlegroup not that I thought the Russians would want to invade. Why, if it could not even offer battle, the RN think it necessary to escort an Russian squadron through the Channel is an interesting question.

    Your question about air power capabilities against serious naval warships is even more interesting. You might want to read it up. I'll give you a starter for 10 the RAF doesn't have any, but that is OK because nor does most of the RN surface fleet.
    First, hello.

    Second- you're right to imply that the RAF's capability has limits, but it has some via Brimstone. As for the Navy, there's a high probability that any given ship would have a fully armed Lynx on board.

    However all of that misses the point. We don't have a particularly defensive posture at the minute and nor should we. It would be a waste of money. We were on an expeditionary footing, we are now recovering. In terms of deliverable capability, we remain one of the more formidable powers on the planet.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Trident didn't deter 9/11 or 7/7.

    That's because terrorists don't have a country to nuke.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Speedy said:

    John_M said:

    ToryJim said:

    @Speedy‌
    Wasn't there some crazy neocon idea to develop theatre specific mini nukes so they could vaporise a platoon or two without destroying all life for 500 miles around for the next 2million years.

    Neocon? The US had nuclear artillery shells in the 50s and 60s. What fun! They also had nuclear free-flight rockets and depth charges.
    All in the kiloton and megaton range, those are proper nukes not mini.
    Mostly, but not completely true. And what would PB be without pedantry? Exhibit A: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W48

    What is good in life? To argue with strangers, discombobulate their arguments and provide dodgy evidence via Wikipedia.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121

    Well, I admire the fact he had the balls to say this

    Danny Alexander: Lib Dems could be biggest party by 2025

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-danny-alexander-lib-dems-could-be-biggest-party-2025

    Sion Simon eat your heart out!
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    Speedy said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @John_M

    Nuclear landmines? now there is an amazing idea!

    They had nuclear landmines in W.Germany for the duration of the cold war.
    Don't forget the suicidal nuclear depth charges the RN used to have.

  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    Well, I admire the fact he had the balls to say this

    Danny Alexander: Lib Dems could be biggest party by 2025

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-danny-alexander-lib-dems-could-be-biggest-party-2025

    Can I have what he's smoking?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    Exactly a hundred years ago, the RN had more than a dozen dreadnoughts already in commission.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    Exactly a hundred years ago, the RN had more than a dozen dreadnoughts already in commission.

    Yes but as Jutland showed they didn't really know what to do with them.

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:



    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?


    What happens if a non-nuclear power attacks? Do we nuke them?
    The Falklands war is an example, but how many non nuclear enemies can attack the British Isles? In my estimation none (if you exclude Spain and Germany that are in NATO).

    Just a thought, what are you going to do when the third LNG ship from Qatar doesn't arrive because some bugger, don't know who but can guess, keeps sinking them all?

    What would you suggest we do, in an ideal world?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2014
    John_M said:

    Speedy said:

    John_M said:

    ToryJim said:

    @Speedy‌
    Wasn't there some crazy neocon idea to develop theatre specific mini nukes so they could vaporise a platoon or two without destroying all life for 500 miles around for the next 2million years.

    Neocon? The US had nuclear artillery shells in the 50s and 60s. What fun! They also had nuclear free-flight rockets and depth charges.
    All in the kiloton and megaton range, those are proper nukes not mini.
    Mostly, but not completely true. And what would PB be without pedantry? Exhibit A: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W48

    What is good in life? To argue with strangers, discombobulate their arguments and provide dodgy evidence via Wikipedia.
    Again not practical, due to the design it cost 5 times more than more conventional nuclear shells (a single shell like W48 would also weigh more than 100 pounds, twice the weight for something half as big as conventional nuclear shells).
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Gridlock on Fleet Street as cabbies strike.

    Impossible to get opinions on how this country's going to hell in hand cart....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    ToryJim said:

    Exactly a hundred years ago, the RN had more than a dozen dreadnoughts already in commission.

    Yes but as Jutland showed they didn't really know what to do with them.

    Jutland was a tactical German victory (more RN tonnage sunk then German), but it was definitely a strategic British victory because after summer 1916, the Kaiser's fleet was effectively bottled up in port (save for a few skirmishes in the Channel and the Baltic).
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Exactly a hundred years ago, the RN had more than a dozen dreadnoughts already in commission.

    Two of them still sail on the government benches ....

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    ab195 said:

    Speedy said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @John_M

    Nuclear landmines? now there is an amazing idea!

    They had nuclear landmines in W.Germany for the duration of the cold war.
    Don't forget the suicidal nuclear depth charges the RN used to have.

    NATO Nasties, dropped out of a helicopter.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    edited June 2014

    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: New TNS BMRB poll out - No maintains its double-digit lead. Analysis from @WhatScotsThink here http://t.co/2dXrpq11U9

    59/41 No/YES when DK's excluded.

    YES remain dead in the water, completely becalmed.

    Tick tock ....

    ***** Betting Post *****

    That 41% 'Yes' figure after excluding Don't Knows makes Ladbrokes' offer of 9/2 for their 35% - 40% 'Yes' vote band appear very attractive indeed imho, especially when one considers this is a whopping great 50% improvement on Victor Chandler's 3/1 odds for his LOWER and NARROWER 35% - 39% 'Yes' vote band.
    I'm on but DYOR!
    Cheers Peter, I'm on.

    Also, I checked Betfair last night. There was still £80 or so of cash available to back turnout at 75%+ on the Indy Ref at 2.1 (or evens in old money, after commission)

    That beats the less generous 5/6 available at Ladbrokes, which is also for a higher level match line at 78%.
    Casino - Yes, that's great value vs Ladbrokes for Betfair's Indy Turnout and to be pedantic, 2.1 is actually 1.045/1 in old money .... every little helps. You can of course also ask for that little bit more with Betfair and often get it if you're prepared to be patient.

    As regards the Yes vote, I suspect that like "shy" Tories, there may be an element of "shy" No voters who won't admit as much to the pollsters - if so, the Yes vote could finish lower still, perhaps not too far distant from Laddies' 30% - 35% band for which they offer odds of 10/1. Not likely admittedly, but possibly worth a couple of quid as a saver.

    Thanks Peter. To be equally pedantic, it is actually 0.995 in old money (or near enough evens) because Betfair take 5% commission off the profit of any bet. I believe you might not have deducted that in your calculation. I might be wrong but 0.95*2.1 has given me that odds figure!

    I'm betting on a YES vote of between 35-45% which is where I think it'll end up. I think it'll be around 39-40% as it happens, but I am tempted to insure myself on the 30-35 band if the odds stay tempting!
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Well, I admire the fact he had the balls to say this

    Danny Alexander: Lib Dems could be biggest party by 2025

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-danny-alexander-lib-dems-could-be-biggest-party-2025

    They should but him on comic relief.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    ToryJim said:

    Exactly a hundred years ago, the RN had more than a dozen dreadnoughts already in commission.

    Yes but as Jutland showed they didn't really know what to do with them.

    Jutland was a tactical German victory (more RN tonnage sunk then German), but it was definitely a strategic British victory because after summer 1916, the Kaiser's fleet was effectively bottled up in port (save for a few skirmishes in the Channel and the Baltic).
    Yes admittedly the High Seas fleet scurried back to port and stayed there but it's impossible not to see the battle as a hairs breadth from catastrophe. The Brits were lucky rather than inspired, it's like being held to a score draw.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    Speedy said:

    Well, I admire the fact he had the balls to say this

    Danny Alexander: Lib Dems could be biggest party by 2025

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/exclusive-danny-alexander-lib-dems-could-be-biggest-party-2025

    They should but him on comic relief.
    Maybe he meant biggest party in Eastleigh? Or Sutton.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    John_M said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Sean_F
    "It generally determines historical outcomes."

    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?

    I always remember my history teacher expounding that violence never solved anything. It made me wonder whether she'd ever actually read any history at all.

    Indeed, The views of the Carthaginians, Samaritans, Argentinian Indians, Tasmanian Aborigines, Hsi Hsia etc. etc. would be worth hearing in relation to "violence never solves anything" - if there were any of them left to comment.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693

    ToryJim said:

    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: New TNS BMRB poll out - No maintains its double-digit lead. Analysis from @WhatScotsThink here http://t.co/2dXrpq11U9

    59/41 No/YES when DK's excluded.

    YES remain dead in the water, completely becalmed.

    Tick tock ....

    ***** Betting Post *****

    That 41% 'Yes' figure after excluding Don't Knows makes Ladbrokes' offer of 9/2 for their 35% - 40% 'Yes' vote band appear very attractive indeed imho, especially when one considers this is a whopping great 50% improvement on Victor Chandler's 3/1 odds for his LOWER and NARROWER 35% - 39% 'Yes' vote band.
    I'm on but DYOR!
    Cheers Peter, I'm on.

    Also, I checked Betfair last night. There was still £80 or so of cash available to back turnout at 75%+ on the Indy Ref at 2.1 (or evens in old money, after commission)

    That beats the less generous 5/6 available at Ladbrokes, which is also for a higher level match line at 78%.
    Casino - Yes, that's great value vs Ladbrokes for Betfair's Indy Turnout and to be pedantic, 2.1 is actually 1.045/1 in old money .... every little helps. You can of course also ask for that little bit more with Betfair and often get it if you're prepared to be patient.

    As regards the Yes vote, I suspect that like "shy" Tories, there may be an element of "shy" No voters who won't admit as much to the pollsters - if so, the Yes vote could finish lower still, perhaps not too far distant from Laddies' 30% - 35% band for which they offer odds of 10/1. Not likely admittedly, but possibly worth a couple of quid as a saver.

    There's one risk I foresee, if the polls maintain their current levels of substantial No leads, then some voters might think it is in the bag, and not bother to turnout and vote on the big day.
    Differential turnout won't overturn a 20 point lead.
    But it will affect overall turnout, which is what the bet is on.
    I am covering myself on the 70-75% band as well, so I still come out (very slightly) ahead even if turnout is low.

    Turnout won't be below 70%, so either I get my stake back plus a few pennies, or I bag a (low) 3-figure sum. I expect turnout will be in the 73.5%-78.5% band no matter what happens, but my "big" win could easily be a near miss.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: New TNS BMRB poll out - No maintains its double-digit lead. Analysis from @WhatScotsThink here http://t.co/2dXrpq11U9

    59/41 No/YES when DK's excluded.

    YES remain dead in the water, completely becalmed.

    Tick tock ....

    ***** Betting Post *****

    That 41% 'Yes' figure after excluding Don't Knows makes Ladbrokes' offer of 9/2 for their 35% - 40% 'Yes' vote band appear very attractive indeed imho, especially when one considers this is a whopping great 50% improvement on Victor Chandler's 3/1 odds for his LOWER and NARROWER 35% - 39% 'Yes' vote band.
    I'm on but DYOR!
    Cheers Peter, I'm on.

    Also, I checked Betfair last night. There was still £80 or so of cash available to back turnout at 75%+ on the Indy Ref at 2.1 (or evens in old money, after commission)

    That beats the less generous 5/6 available at Ladbrokes, which is also for a higher level match line at 78%.
    Casino - Yes, that's great value vs Ladbrokes for Betfair's Indy Turnout and to be pedantic, 2.1 is actually 1.045/1 in old money .... every little helps. You can of course also ask for that little bit more with Betfair and often get it if you're prepared to be patient.

    As regards the Yes vote, I suspect that like "shy" Tories, there may be an element of "shy" No voters who won't admit as much to the pollsters - if so, the Yes vote could finish lower still, perhaps not too far distant from Laddies' 30% - 35% band for which they offer odds of 10/1. Not likely admittedly, but possibly worth a couple of quid as a saver.

    Thanks Peter. To be equally pedantic, it is actually 0.995 in old money (or near enough evens) because Betfair take 5% commission off the profit of any bet. I believe you might not have deducted that in your calculation. I might be wrong but 0.95*2.1 has given me that odds figure!

    I'm betting on a YES vote of between 35-45% which is where I think it'll end up. I think it'll be around 39-40% as it happens, but I am tempted to insure myself on the 30-35 band if the odds stay tempting!
    There is still value in the Indy referendum but to my mind and that of McARSE the standout value remains in the turnout markets projected by the later at 81.5%

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    Sean_F said:

    John_M said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Sean_F
    "It generally determines historical outcomes."

    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?

    I always remember my history teacher expounding that violence never solved anything. It made me wonder whether she'd ever actually read any history at all.

    Indeed, The views of the Carthaginians, Samaritans, Argentinian Indians, Tasmanian Aborigines, Hsi Hsia etc. etc. would be worth hearing in relation to "violence never solves anything" - if there were any of them left to comment.

    And the Cathars.
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    Im a bit lost by this passport thing, I sent my renewal application in on the 11th May and my new passport turned up 12 days later. Pretty good really, was this "problem" just dreamt up to give Ed something to talk about at PMQs
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    JackW said:

    3. Significant Democrat favouring demographic changes in Virginia, Florida, New Mexico, Colorado and Nevada currently and more long term in Arizona, Texas and North Carolina.

    Are there any States that are trending Republican?

    Maybe Ohio and other rustbelt states?

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    John_M said:

    ToryJim said:

    @Speedy‌
    Wasn't there some crazy neocon idea to develop theatre specific mini nukes so they could vaporise a platoon or two without destroying all life for 500 miles around for the next 2million years.

    Neocon? The US had nuclear artillery shells in the 50s and 60s. What fun! They also had nuclear free-flight rockets and depth charges.
    This is a particularly spiffy toy. Imagine insurgent forces in Iraq playing with these.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2014
    Anorak said:

    John_M said:

    ToryJim said:

    @Speedy‌
    Wasn't there some crazy neocon idea to develop theatre specific mini nukes so they could vaporise a platoon or two without destroying all life for 500 miles around for the next 2million years.

    Neocon? The US had nuclear artillery shells in the 50s and 60s. What fun! They also had nuclear free-flight rockets and depth charges.
    This is a particularly spiffy toy. Imagine insurgent forces in Iraq playing with these.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)
    And very dirty, effectively spreading 10 kg of plutonium over a small area with only a gram or less going into the explosion. In effect it would be something like a dirty bomb. That is why they were decommissioned after only a few years.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited June 2014
    Yes but as Jutland showed they didn't really know what to do with them.

    Harsh. You have to feel for Jellicoe. He was, as Churchill remarked, 'the only man who could have lost the war in an afternoon'.

    Just as Haig was the only Briton ever, up to that time, to have commanded a mass army - or anything like one.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    taffys said:

    Yes but as Jutland showed they didn't really know what to do with them.

    Harsh. You have to feel for Jellicoe. He was, as Churchill remarked, 'the only man who could have lost the war in an afternoon'.

    Just as Haig was the only Briton ever, up to that time, to have commanded a mass army - or anything like one.

    Maybe but the RN had lapsed into serial complacency which is part of the reason so many ships blew up.
  • currystar said:

    Im a bit lost by this passport thing, I sent my renewal application in on the 11th May and my new passport turned up 12 days later. Pretty good really, was this "problem" just dreamt up to give Ed something to talk about at PMQs

    The Labour government came up with the daft idea that having interviews & enhanced checks for new passports was a good idea.

    Simple renewals where there are no real change except for a newer photo go through quickly, and as always if you need your passport quickly you can pay to have it processed faster. However at times of high demand the system they brought in has always been bloody slow.

    So for Ed to complain would risk some sarky comments from Dave...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:



    Given the latest report on our armed services, we had better keep a low profile then?


    What happens if a non-nuclear power attacks? Do we nuke them?
    The Falklands war is an example, but how many non nuclear enemies can attack the British Isles? In my estimation none (if you exclude Spain and Germany that are in NATO).
    None? Well OK, then lets build successor class and bin the entire armed forces save four submarines. Save a lot of mucking about as well as money.

    Just a thought, what are you going to do when the third LNG ship from Qatar doesn't arrive because some bugger, don't know who but can guess, keeps sinking them all?

    The mistake a lot of people make is to think the UK can defend itself purely at its geographic borders. It can't.

    Being an island is a great defensive advantage, but it also means we depend upon the free-flow of fuel, food and goods imports/exports around the world. Trade is crucial to our livelihood. Therefore, regional stability and freedom of the skies and seas are of particular interest to us. We also generally don't want any one aggressive power that can dominate its neighbours by (generally land-based) force of arms, in Europe, North Africa and the Middle-East, because that has knock-on implications for our strategic freedom.

    We are much more vulnerable to this than the USA.

    Anyone who thinks differently should examine WWII. We couldn't be defeated by a direct land invasion, but we didn't necessarily need to be. If not forced to surrender, we could have been rendered totally impotent and starving by blockade - as Japan was. And they did ultimately surrender.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Where's our afternoon thread?? Andy's just won and I'm not in the mood to read Woolf* (*apologies for previous misspelling) .
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    taffys said:

    Yes but as Jutland showed they didn't really know what to do with them.

    Harsh. You have to feel for Jellicoe. He was, as Churchill remarked, 'the only man who could have lost the war in an afternoon'.

    Just as Haig was the only Briton ever, up to that time, to have commanded a mass army - or anything like one.

    Naval warfare was changing at the time, U-Boats were more of a danger.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    3. Significant Democrat favouring demographic changes in Virginia, Florida, New Mexico, Colorado and Nevada currently and more long term in Arizona, Texas and North Carolina.

    Are there any States that are trending Republican?

    Maybe Ohio and other rustbelt states?

    Trending ? .... not really and certainly nothing at the rate of the swing states I noted.

    Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota were a little closer than previously but comfortable for a second term President in trying economic circumstances.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Are there any States that are trending Republican?

    Eric Cantor's defeat in the Virginia primary really makes you wonder. The tea party can't win, it knows it can't win, and yet it soldiers on. It faces an ever more hostile electorate as the demographics move inexorably against it. These people will never vote tea in a million years.

    What are tea trying to achieve?

  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    taffys said:

    Are there any States that are trending Republican?

    Eric Cantor's defeat in the Virginia primary really makes you wonder. The tea party can't win, it knows it can't win, and yet it soldiers on. It faces an ever more hostile electorate as the demographics move inexorably against it. These people will never vote tea in a million years.

    What are tea trying to achieve?

    Nothing they are "raging against the dying of the light"
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    taffys said:

    Are there any States that are trending Republican?

    Eric Cantor's defeat in the Virginia primary really makes you wonder. The tea party can't win, it knows it can't win, and yet it soldiers on. It faces an ever more hostile electorate as the demographics move inexorably against it. These people will never vote tea in a million years.

    What are tea trying to achieve?

    The tea party appears to be doing the political equivalent of "the beatings will continue until morale improves". I truly feel sorry for the GOP.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited June 2014
    taffys said:

    Are there any States that are trending Republican?

    Eric Cantor's defeat in the Virginia primary really makes you wonder. The tea party can't win, it knows it can't win, and yet it soldiers on. It faces an ever more hostile electorate as the demographics move inexorably against it. These people will never vote tea in a million years.

    What are tea trying to achieve?

    They win on policy, no? No Republican will want to go anywhere near immigration reform for a long time to come. The way the US system is set up it's pretty much impossible to get anything meaningful done without at least some cooperation from the other side. Obama only just squeaked ObamaCare through, and that was after a wave election, with an unusual (and temporary) super-majority.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    taffys said:

    Are there any States that are trending Republican?
    ,
    Eric Cantor's defeat in the Virginia primary really makes you wonder. The tea party can't win, it knows it can't win, and yet it soldiers on. It faces an ever more hostile electorate as the demographics move inexorably against it. These people will never vote tea in a million years.

    What are tea trying to achieve?

    They are determined to destroy the opposing tendency, well all the opposing tendencies, in their own supposed party in the belief that they will be the last men standing and thus be able to run on a pure nutjob platform.
    They want to destroy all the rest of the right to leave just their version.
    What they will achieve is at least another 4 - probably 8 - years of Democrat government.
    Personally I think only another of the Bush's can save America from that.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Further ....

    And just to make the GOP's position worse Hillary will appeal to the rustbelt WWC that Obama struggled to reach making Ohio especially more difficult to regain.

    And there's more .... Team Hillary will also cast an avaricious eye over a few other southern states that Bill cast his spell over - Arkansas, West Virginia and Tennessee.

    It could be worse for the GOP if Hillary runs .... but not much !!
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    "
    Labour call to stop UK supermarkets stocking food produced by slaves
    It is up to consumers whether they eat prawns processed in Thailand using slave labour, says Cameron's spokesman"

    http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/jun/11/slavery-prawns-thailand-supermarkets-labour

    The South Shall Rise Again! And I ain't whistin' Dixie
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited June 2014

    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: New TNS BMRB poll out - No maintains its double-digit lead. Analysis from @WhatScotsThink here http://t.co/2dXrpq11U9

    59/41 No/YES when DK's excluded.

    YES remain dead in the water, completely becalmed.

    Tick tock ....

    ***** Betting Post *****

    That 41% 'Yes' figure after excluding Don't Knows makes Ladbrokes' offer of 9/2 for their 35% - 40% 'Yes' vote band appear very attractive indeed imho, especially when one considers this is a whopping great 50% improvement on Victor Chandler's 3/1 odds for his LOWER and NARROWER 35% - 39% 'Yes' vote band.
    I'm on but DYOR!
    Cheers Peter, I'm on.

    Also, I checked Betfair last night. There was still £80 or so of cash available to back turnout at 75%+ on the Indy Ref at 2.1 (or evens in old money, after commission)

    That beats the less generous 5/6 available at Ladbrokes, which is also for a higher level match line at 78%.
    Casino - Yes, that's great value vs Ladbrokes for Betfair's Indy Turnout and to be pedantic, 2.1 is actually 1.045/1 in old money .... every little helps. You can of course also ask for that little bit more with Betfair and often get it if you're prepared to be patient.

    As regards the Yes vote, I suspect that like "shy" Tories, there may be an element of "shy" No voters who won't admit as much to the pollsters - if so, the Yes vote could finish lower still, perhaps not too far distant from Laddies' 30% - 35% band for which they offer odds of 10/1. Not likely admittedly, but possibly worth a couple of quid as a saver.

    Thanks Peter. To be equally pedantic, it is actually 0.995 in old money (or near enough evens) because Betfair take 5% commission off the profit of any bet. I believe you might not have deducted that in your calculation. I might be wrong but 0.95*2.1 has given me that odds figure!

    I'm betting on a YES vote of between 35-45% which is where I think it'll end up. I think it'll be around 39-40% as it happens, but I am tempted to insure myself on the 30-35 band if the odds stay tempting!
    No, Peter's 1.045 is correct. Betfair take their commission off the winnings, not the whole return. So the amended price is 1 + (1.1 * 95%).

    I think it was my 2.2 some of you scooped up the other day; a bit sloppy to have left it there with major firms adjusting their lines but since I was on at 4.1 I can't complain... also there has to be some concern about the state of the register and also the possibility of it looking a foregone conclusion.

  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    taffys said:

    Are there any States that are trending Republican?

    Eric Cantor's defeat in the Virginia primary really makes you wonder. The tea party can't win, it knows it can't win, and yet it soldiers on. It faces an ever more hostile electorate as the demographics move inexorably against it. These people will never vote tea in a million years.

    What are tea trying to achieve?

    Colorado might be one. It's the only Obama state that Hillary has trouble winning.
    Also if you looked at the campaign Cantor was not only defeated for immigration (cue UKIP) but also for corruption, his opponent alleged that you could buy lawmakers like Cantor and even suggested that they demand 150 thousand dollars for a place on a House of Representatives committee.
    Cantor thought that if you are big business friendly you can win just by getting money for re election ads, he forgot that it's a house seat not a senate one, the more local the election the more important is local perception.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited June 2014
    ''What they will achieve is at least another 4 - probably 8 - years of Democrat government.''

    Quite honestly its very difficult to see when the republicans might form another government, which leads me to wonder whether the break-up of the United States is really impossible.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Smarmeron said:

    "
    Labour call to stop UK supermarkets stocking food produced by slaves
    It is up to consumers whether they eat prawns processed in Thailand using slave labour, says Cameron's spokesman"

    http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/jun/11/slavery-prawns-thailand-supermarkets-labour

    The South Shall Rise Again! And I ain't whistin' Dixie

    Hmm. Looks like another policy that Oxfam would think up.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Dear Speedy Taffys...
    Jellico was ill served by Beatty and his battle cruiser reports. He crossed the T of the German High Seas Fleet twice despite that. The way the battle cruisers stored ammunition led to a number of sinkings.
    The uboat threat was more perceived than real. Despite the fact that there were few sinkings many German ships were very badly smashed so as to be useless for a long time. The Grand Fleet was ready for action again immediately.

    And I wonder... has anybody since ever commanded an army as big as Haig's?
  • The Court of Appeal (Gross LJ, Simon & Burnett JJ) will tomorrow hand down its judgment in Regina v AB & CD. The appellants impugn directions of Mr Justice Nicol, purportedly issued under the inherent jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court, which will exclude the public from the entirety of the trial of AB and CD. It should be noted that tomorrow's decision of the Court of Appeal is final, and no appeal lies therefrom to the Supreme Court.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    taffys said:

    ''What they will achieve is at least another 4 - probably 8 - years of Democrat government.''

    Quite honestly its very difficult to see when the republicans might form another government, which leads me to wonder whether the break-up of the United States is really impossible.

    The US won't break up, there have been long periods of party dominance. Sooner or later the other party will take the hint and make itself competitive again.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    taffys said:

    ''What they will achieve is at least another 4 - probably 8 - years of Democrat government.''

    Quite honestly its very difficult to see when the republicans might form another government, which leads me to wonder whether the break-up of the United States is really impossible.

    2020 or even 2024, the democrats have only novelty candidates to field, first black president first woman president, once you get to first latino president the novelty starts to get thin. Hillary is unbeatable in 2016 however every republican beats any other democrat for the white house. Hillary will be beatable in 2020, just ask Julia Gillard.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Come off it, casino royale
    We are NATO treaty allies with all of Europe plus Canada and the USA. We trade with these countries and any nations (come on, just who?) who interrupt that trade attacks them as well as us. We are protected as well as we can be from strategic blackmail by Trident which the govt is already actively seeking to update and replace.
    We have something like the worlds 4th largest defence budget, the biggest in Europe I think.
    We are connected to Europe by the channel tunnel as well !!
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2014
    ToryJim said:

    taffys said:

    ''What they will achieve is at least another 4 - probably 8 - years of Democrat government.''

    Quite honestly its very difficult to see when the republicans might form another government, which leads me to wonder whether the break-up of the United States is really impossible.

    The US won't break up, there have been long periods of party dominance. Sooner or later the other party will take the hint and make itself competitive again.
    The republicans are already competitive, they would have won in 2012 if they had someone else that a corrupt Wall St weather vane with the charisma of a plank of wood.
    No one with Romney's background would have had a chance to get elected just 3 years after a financial crisis blamed on people like him.
    And as I said before, Hillary is only winning because she is a woman.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    currystar said:

    Im a bit lost by this passport thing, I sent my renewal application in on the 11th May and my new passport turned up 12 days later. Pretty good really, was this "problem" just dreamt up to give Ed something to talk about at PMQs

    Probably, it was produced as if by magic by the trade unions who are of course losing membership because of the cuts.
    Then the press who have a vested interest in attacking whichever govt is in power leap on to the bandwagon. Whatever you do don't expect objectivity.
    I lost or thought I had lost my passport once, just before going on holiday. I got a form and filled it in and drove to Peterborough, where the passport office must be the best signposted govt building in the country, and picked my passport up all in the same day. Of course after the holiday the old passport turned up.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Hillary's novelty will wear thin as time goes by in the White House, she is even with men and winning 60% of women votes because of her gender, but once she gets into office the "elect the first woman president" will no longer apply.
    Julia Gillard's case in Australia is an example.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    Speedy said:

    ToryJim said:

    taffys said:

    ''What they will achieve is at least another 4 - probably 8 - years of Democrat government.''

    Quite honestly its very difficult to see when the republicans might form another government, which leads me to wonder whether the break-up of the United States is really impossible.

    The US won't break up, there have been long periods of party dominance. Sooner or later the other party will take the hint and make itself competitive again.
    The republicans are already competitive, they would have won in 2012 if they had someone else that a corrupt Wall St weather vane with the charisma of a plank of wood.
    No one with Romney's background would have had a chance to get elected just 3 years after a financial crisis blamed on people like him.
    And as I said before, Hillary is only winning because she is a woman.
    I think that is massively simplistic. I agree Romney had issues, but the trouble was he was pushed right by the Tea Loonies which amplified them. I think there are deeper reasons than merely gender in Hillary's strength.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Exactly a hundred years ago, the RN had more than a dozen dreadnoughts already in commission.

    And they were bankrupting us. This was of course, as I am sure you know, the nuclear arms race of its day.
    The huge costs were why we had the post ww1 naval treaties, the strategic arms like limitation talks of their day.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693

    JackW said:

    Scott_P said:

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: New TNS BMRB poll out - No maintains its double-digit lead. Analysis from @WhatScotsThink here http://t.co/2dXrpq11U9

    59/41 No/YES when DK's excluded.

    YES remain dead in the water, completely becalmed.

    Tick tock ....

    ***** Betting Post *****

    That 41% 'Yes' figure after excluding Don't Knows makes Ladbrokes' offer of 9/2 for their 35% - 40% 'Yes' vote band appear very attractive indeed imho, especially when one considers this is a whopping great 50% improvement on Victor Chandler's 3/1 odds for his LOWER and NARROWER 35% - 39% 'Yes' vote band.
    I'm on but DYOR!
    Cheers Peter, I'm on.

    Also, I checked Betfair last night. There was still £80 or so of cash available to back turnout at 75%+ on the Indy Ref at 2.1 (or evens in old money, after commission)

    That beats the less generous 5/6 available at Ladbrokes, which is also for a higher level match line at 78%.
    Thanks Peter. To be equally pedantic, it is actually 0.995 in old money (or near enough evens) because Betfair take 5% commission off the profit of any bet. I believe you might not have deducted that in your calculation. I might be wrong but 0.95*2.1 has given me that odds figure!

    I'm betting on a YES vote of between 35-45% which is where I think it'll end up. I think it'll be around 39-40% as it happens, but I am tempted to insure myself on the 30-35 band if the odds stay tempting!
    No, Peter's 1.045 is correct. Betfair take their commission off the winnings, not the whole return. So the amended price is 1 + (1.1 * 95%).

    I think it was my 2.2 some of you scooped up the other day; a bit sloppy to have left it there with major firms adjusting their lines but since I was on at 4.1 I can't complain... also there has to be some concern about the state of the register and also the possibility of it looking a foregone conclusion.

    Argh. My bad. Still, can't complain too much. That means the odds are even more attractive than I thought.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693

    Come off it, casino royale
    We are NATO treaty allies with all of Europe plus Canada and the USA. We trade with these countries and any nations (come on, just who?) who interrupt that trade attacks them as well as us. We are protected as well as we can be from strategic blackmail by Trident which the govt is already actively seeking to update and replace.
    We have something like the worlds 4th largest defence budget, the biggest in Europe I think.
    We are connected to Europe by the channel tunnel as well !!

    What's your point?
This discussion has been closed.