It is not just the doubt over Miliband's leadership, but, after Newark, the electorate has good cause to wonder whether Labour will turn up at the contest in 2015.
Perhaps Rachel Reeves can turn things around and energise the party? She seems to be trying.
Miss Carola, Hunt as in Tristram? One would've thought education would be natural territory for him.
Yep. Haven't rated him from the start - had a few heated debates about that early on. Now most are resigned to the fact that he doesn't know what he's talking about in some areas, and 'Gove-lite' in others.
His bumbling response to questions was embarrassing.
Yes i saw him interviewed on that. Passionate and articulate. Don't see that when he talks about edu.
I was at the Policy Exchange gig yesterday. It was clear that both speeches were aimed at the msm, not the audience - most of whom would know that a lot of that claims Gove spouted were twaddle.
Hunt was dreadful - claiming 'teachers' were against the DfE policies that they're most in favour of. He really isn't on top of the ed brief. I don't think his heart's in it tbh. He's far more fluent/convincing on other areas.
@Stuart_Dickson - I am all for self government. I am opposed to narrow-minded nationalism. The kind that seeks to suggest that there are fundamental differences between people who have lived together, worked together, laughed together, played together and developed all kinds of other deep bonds over the course of hundreds of years. That's not progressive, it's reactionary. SNP nationalism is the same as UKIP nationalism: if we get rid of that other, that foreign thing, that holds us back then everything will be so much better. The English are Tories, they vote UKIP, they feed the Westminster beast that oppresses us, says the SNP. And that leads to the fibs about things such as EU membership and the obfuscation over the implications of a shared currency. It's not about a better Scotland or UK for nationalists, it's about a separate one. Not my cup of rosie, I'm afraid.
Nostalgic hankering after a 'country' that started to dematerialise 50 years ago? Sounds like you've plenty in common with a certain political party.
Nice to see the PB Tories have opened up a Partido Popular chapter though.
There's nothing nostalgic about stating there is much more that unites the English and Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish) than divides them. Their views on everything from the NHS through the EU to nationalisation of the railways are pretty much the same, for example. Nationalists hate it, I know, but facts is facts.
OT EU The Sun violating Godwin's Law with a thing about Juncker's family's Nazi Links. (His father was conscripted into the Germany army and made to fight in Russia, apparently.)
If he doesn't feel like keeping his head down at this point it might not be a bad jumping-off point for a Big Speech...
I was at the Policy Exchange gig yesterday. It was clear that both speeches were aimed at the msm, not the audience - most of whom would know that a lot of that claims Gove spouted were twaddle.
Hunt was dreadful - claiming 'teachers' were against the DfE policies that they're most in favour of. He really isn't on top of the ed brief. I don't think his heart's in it tbh. He's far more fluent/convincing on other areas.
“BLOODBATH”…! – a tad hyperbolic me thinks, I thought a lowly spad got fired?
Where would the Internet be without hyperbole? I'm surprised they didn't go for 'massacre'. It's a shame as I have a modicum of respect for both Gove and May, loathsome urban politicos as they undoubtedly are.
No, a massacre would be the LibDems' European Election performance - or is that a decimation?
Cameron missed a chance to make sure the Tories got re-elected. He should have showed decisive leadership.
Sack both of them. The party would have supported him because he got rid of two ferrets fighting in a sack.
Immediately, tell the country. He is tough, he is decisive. People like "tough" PM's
Instead he proved himself to be a weakling. Poor Fiona lost her job instead. Until yesterday the public did not even know her !
After Brown's cabinet, you are at least very experienced on such matters...
That's precisely the problem. Resignations are boring. The public will always back you if you sack any known culprit. If one is a friend, it is a bonus.
This infighting is nasty ! Imagine actually putting up the infamous letter from May to Gove on the official Home Office website !
OT EU The Sun violating Godwin's Law with a thing about Juncker's family's Nazi Links. (His father was conscripted into the Germany army and made to fight in Russia, apparently.)
If he doesn't feel like keeping his head down at this point it might not be a bad jumping-off point for a Big Speech...
I'm still waiting for the so-called "Sun" to pinch the Sunil on Sunday's "Stick it up your Juncker!" headline
Nowadays any national poll showing a Labour lead, even a minuscule one, is likely to have been caused by a Labour-leaning sample.
It is not just the doubt over Miliband's leadership, but, after Newark, the electorate has good cause to wonder whether Labour will turn up at the contest in 2015.
Perhaps Rachel Reeves can turn things around and energise the party? She seems to be trying.
YG seems to show no noticeable impact of Newark whatever, which was also my doorstep impression yesterday. A small note of caution, though: the poll shows a sharp dip in Cameron's popularity (-5 net) and rise in Milibands (+5), which could be something genuine or could also show a Labour-leaning sample. Worth waiting for a few more polls before we jump to conclusions.
ALL the polls have Labour leaning samples so far as I can work out. The pollsters then have to adjust because Labour voters are famously lazy and don't get out of bed come vote day. If Labour actually got the votes people said they were going to give them they'd be heading for a landslide. That won't happen
If the recent narrowing – and brief vanishing – of Labour's poll lead was linked to people focusing on an actual voting decision in actual elections, Miliband ought to be very worried. Kinnock welcomed Miliband's election as leader, saying, "We've got our party back." But in Miliband has the party got its Kinnock back?
There's nothing nostalgic about stating there is much more that unites the English and Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish) than divides them. Their views on everything from the NHS through the EU to nationalisation of the railways are pretty much the same
Euros
Scotland UKIP - 10% London UKIP - 17% rUK UKIP - 32% France FN - 25%
I don't think you need to intellectualise your choice, Dr. Sox!
But it is very typical. The dreary soviet decor of a flat in mutliple occupation; playing with a new Western toy, and, the shameless innocence of the demi-clad.
The problem is that it is all now being spoilt by Western market driven consumerism. Mixed in with the 'homely' and eccentric will be a bunch of professional date seekers whose photos will have been stolen from the new burgeoning local porn industry. All Empire gilt furnishing and faux leopardskin bed coverings.
The East really needs saving. We should march on Moscow immediately in the cause of good taste.
If the recent narrowing – and brief vanishing – of Labour's poll lead was linked to people focusing on an actual voting decision in actual elections, Miliband ought to be very worried. Kinnock welcomed Miliband's election as leader, saying, "We've got our party back." But in Miliband has the party got its Kinnock back?
You haven't been noticing the polls lately. The gap is widening. Newark - a safe Tory seat - made no difference.
There's nothing nostalgic about stating there is much more that unites the English and Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish) than divides them. Their views on everything from the NHS through the EU to nationalisation of the railways are pretty much the same
Euros
Scotland UKIP - 10% London UKIP - 17% rUK UKIP - 32% France FN - 25%
Facts are indeed facts.
So if you add on the SNP total, Scotland has the most nationalist voters.
If the recent narrowing – and brief vanishing – of Labour's poll lead was linked to people focusing on an actual voting decision in actual elections, Miliband ought to be very worried. Kinnock welcomed Miliband's election as leader, saying, "We've got our party back." But in Miliband has the party got its Kinnock back?
You haven't been noticing the polls lately. The gap is widening. Newark - a safe Tory seat - made no difference.
There's nothing nostalgic about stating there is much more that unites the English and Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish) than divides them. Their views on everything from the NHS through the EU to nationalisation of the railways are pretty much the same
Euros
Scotland UKIP - 10% London UKIP - 17% rUK UKIP - 32% France FN - 25%
Facts are indeed facts.
So if you add on the SNP total, Scotland has the most nationalist voters.
You don't understand. The SNP aren't like other nationalist parties, they're superior because they're Scottish.
OT EU The Sun violating Godwin's Law with a thing about Juncker's family's Nazi Links. (His father was conscripted into the Germany army and made to fight in Russia, apparently.)
If he doesn't feel like keeping his head down at this point it might not be a bad jumping-off point for a Big Speech...
I'm still waiting for the so-called "Sun" to pinch the Sunil on Sunday's "Stick it up your Juncker!" headline
If the recent narrowing – and brief vanishing – of Labour's poll lead was linked to people focusing on an actual voting decision in actual elections, Miliband ought to be very worried. Kinnock welcomed Miliband's election as leader, saying, "We've got our party back." But in Miliband has the party got its Kinnock back?
You haven't been noticing the polls lately. The gap is widening. Newark - a safe Tory seat - made no difference.
Real votes bad , polls good ?
Are you referring to the 2% swing from the Tories to Labour in Newark ? Based on Newark swings, Labour becomes the largest party.
Always good to have an alternative view on the economy.
"One obvious flaw with Osborne's narrative is that the government doesn't really have a long term plan. It used to have a long-term plan based around export drives, investment and a new model of growth that did not rely on consumer debt. Now it has a short-term plan to keep the economy going at full throttle until polling day."
There's nothing nostalgic about stating there is much more that unites the English and Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish) than divides them. Their views on everything from the NHS through the EU to nationalisation of the railways are pretty much the same
Euros
Scotland UKIP - 10% London UKIP - 17% rUK UKIP - 32% France FN - 25%
Facts are indeed facts.
Nationalist votes in Scotland - 39%
Nationalist votes in London - 17%
As I said yesterday, there's a lot more nationalism in Scotland. And slightly more than there is in rUK - but not by much. Quite a bit more than in France though.
If the recent narrowing – and brief vanishing – of Labour's poll lead was linked to people focusing on an actual voting decision in actual elections, Miliband ought to be very worried. Kinnock welcomed Miliband's election as leader, saying, "We've got our party back." But in Miliband has the party got its Kinnock back?
You haven't been noticing the polls lately. The gap is widening. Newark - a safe Tory seat - made no difference.
Real votes bad , polls good ?
Are you referring to the 2% swing from the Tories to Labour in Newark ? Based on Newark swings, Labour becomes the largest party.
Labour a distant 3rd on 17%. Worlds smallest comfort blanket ?
OT EU The Sun violating Godwin's Law with a thing about Juncker's family's Nazi Links. (His father was conscripted into the Germany army and made to fight in Russia, apparently.)
If he doesn't feel like keeping his head down at this point it might not be a bad jumping-off point for a Big Speech...
I'm still waiting for the so-called "Sun" to pinch the Sunil on Sunday's "Stick it up your Juncker!" headline
There's nothing nostalgic about stating there is much more that unites the English and Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish) than divides them. Their views on everything from the NHS through the EU to nationalisation of the railways are pretty much the same
Euros
Scotland UKIP - 10% London UKIP - 17% rUK UKIP - 32% France FN - 25%
Facts are indeed facts.
Nationalist votes in Scotland - 39%
Nationalist votes in London - 17%
As I said yesterday, there's a lot more nationalism in Scotland. And slightly more than there is in rUK - but not by much. Quite a bit more than in France though.
How did the Breton and Corsican nationalists do (If at all)?
To me it shows the continuity of Russian life, with the crushing boredom of Chekovs Three Sisters, or the licentious materialism of Grushenka.
I think we Brits are very much like the Russians, we are the bookends of Europe. Each part of Europe yet apart from it. Jealous of European civilisation and manners, yet also repelled by them. We can never be the good European Burghers that Junckers would so like, we are simply too coarse.
I don't think you need to intellectualise your choice, Dr. Sox!
But it is very typical. The dreary soviet decor of a flat in mutliple occupation; playing with a new Western toy, and, the shameless innocence of the demi-clad.
The problem is that it is all now being spoilt by Western market driven consumerism. Mixed in with the 'homely' and eccentric will be a bunch of professional date seekers whose photos will have been stolen from the new burgeoning local porn industry. All Empire gilt furnishing and faux leopardskin bed coverings.
The East really needs saving. We should march on Moscow immediately in the cause of good taste.
Lets hope Gove vs May doesnt overshadow the real story
"Pupils as young as six were taught to treat Western women as 'white prostitutes' by a school at the centre of the 'Trojan Horse' Islamist plot.
The shocking disclosure comes ahead of two bombshell reports into claims Muslim radicals conspired to infiltrate governing bodies of Birmingham schools.
A leaked copy of one report says teachers at Oldknow Academy told school inspectors they were alarmed by the use of terms such as ‘white prostitute’ and ‘hellfire’ in school assemblies, and that non-Muslim teachers were banned from being present."
A dreary and, in the main, inaccurate assessment of the economy by Larry Elliott.
Having a "long term plan" is not incompatible with having a "short term plan". On the contrary, the two tend to be mutually dependent. What is the point of having a long term plan if you don't know what to do tomorrow? And what is the point of acting tomorrow if you don't know where you going?
That said, GO has most definitely shaped the Treasury's management of the economy to align with electoral deadlines. It is why the post of Chancellor is generally given to a politician rather than an economist.
Of course, if you give it to a poor politician with little grasp of economic realities then you end your government in a deep recession after inheriting a stable and growing economy. The reason why, whoever forms a government in 2015, it won't be Gordon Brown.
Always good to have an alternative view on the economy.
"One obvious flaw with Osborne's narrative is that the government doesn't really have a long term plan. It used to have a long-term plan based around export drives, investment and a new model of growth that did not rely on consumer debt. Now it has a short-term plan to keep the economy going at full throttle until polling day."
There's nothing nostalgic about stating there is much more that unites the English and Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish) than divides them. Their views on everything from the NHS through the EU to nationalisation of the railways are pretty much the same
Euros
Scotland UKIP - 10% London UKIP - 17% rUK UKIP - 32% France FN - 25%
Facts are indeed facts.
Nationalist votes in Scotland - 39%
Nationalist votes in London - 17%
As I said yesterday, there's a lot more nationalism in Scotland. And slightly more than there is in rUK - but not by much. Quite a bit more than in France though.
How long will consistent labour leads have to continue before we hear end of this delusional tea-leaf reading 'crossover' nonsense (no, one or two rogue polls out of hundreds don't count)? Conference season? New year? May 1st 2015?
There's nothing nostalgic about stating there is much more that unites the English and Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish) than divides them. Their views on everything from the NHS through the EU to nationalisation of the railways are pretty much the same
Euros
Scotland UKIP - 10% London UKIP - 17% rUK UKIP - 32% France FN - 25%
Facts are indeed facts.
Nationalist votes in Scotland - 39%
Nationalist votes in London - 17%
As I said yesterday, there's a lot more nationalism in Scotland. And slightly more than there is in rUK - but not by much. Quite a bit more than in France though.
To me it shows the continuity of Russian life, with the crushing boredom of Chekovs Three Sisters, or the licentious materialism of Grushenka.
I think we Brits are very much like the Russians, we are the bookends of Europe. Each part of Europe yet apart from it. Jealous of European civilisation and manners, yet also repelled by them. We can never be the good European Burghers that Junckers would so like, we are simply too coarse.
I don't think you need to intellectualise your choice, Dr. Sox!
But it is very typical. The dreary soviet decor of a flat in mutliple occupation; playing with a new Western toy, and, the shameless innocence of the demi-clad.
The problem is that it is all now being spoilt by Western market driven consumerism. Mixed in with the 'homely' and eccentric will be a bunch of professional date seekers whose photos will have been stolen from the new burgeoning local porn industry. All Empire gilt furnishing and faux leopardskin bed coverings.
The East really needs saving. We should march on Moscow immediately in the cause of good taste.
" Jealous of European civilisation and manners" Really? You speak for yourself.
Of course, the Brits are different from mainland Europe, we have never been conquered by the French for a start. De Gaulle didn't want us in the European club for sound reasons. Having lived here for a few years, he knew we didn't and would never fit in. Our whole outlook from the relationship of the individual to the state, legal system, to our whole world view was just too different. De Gaulle was correct, we really don't belong. Having the UK in the European Club is like me being a member of the Carlton Club (or Whites come to that), I just wouldn't fit and trying to force me to do so only causes unhappiness on both sides.
That is not to say our system of ideas is better or worse, nor that we can't be friends, good neighbours and cooperate when it is in out mutual interest to do so. Let us out of the EU and both sides will be happier and better off.
I have absolutely no problem with patriotism of any kind.
You'd better have a word with those pesky dictionaries.
noun noun: nationalism
patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts. "an early consciousness of nationalism and pride" synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism
Why do supportes of parties that use terms such as "One Nation" think "Nationalist" is an insult?
I don't think nationalist is an insult. It's just a way of seeing the world that I do not share and do not particularly like.
How does it differ from "One nation"?
All parties claim to want to represent the whole country, but it seems to me that UKIP have a more evenly spread support across social class and regions than anyone else, and thats because they make no bones about putting our own nations people first.
Doing that is called xenophobic by others, but we elect politicans to look after our interests, not the rest of the worlds. Thats what their govts are for
How long will consistent labour leads have to continue before we hear end of this delusional tea-leaf reading 'crossover' nonsense (no, one or two rogue polls out of hundreds don't count)? Conference season? New year? May 1st 2015?
I have absolutely no problem with patriotism of any kind.
You'd better have a word with those pesky dictionaries.
noun noun: nationalism
patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts. "an early consciousness of nationalism and pride" synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism
Orwell;
" Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality. "
You may well be right, I merely point out that Ozzie's "short term" plan looks a lot like Gordo's, and I wonder who will feel the "long term" pain.
Dear God, I am agreeing with you again, Comrade. Am I also a, "Pragmatic communist"? Its too much. Thank God its time to walk up to the Pub for noon opening.
There's nothing nostalgic about stating there is much more that unites the English and Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish) than divides them. Their views on everything from the NHS through the EU to nationalisation of the railways are pretty much the same
Euros
Scotland UKIP - 10% London UKIP - 17% rUK UKIP - 32% France FN - 25%
Facts are indeed facts.
Nationalist votes in Scotland - 39%
Nationalist votes in London - 17%
As I said yesterday, there's a lot more nationalism in Scotland. And slightly more than there is in rUK - but not by much. Quite a bit more than in France though.
I don't trust May at all. I would like to, but I don't. I think anyone who stands down the police during the London riots, and then attempts legislation to snoop on people's BBM messages using the riots as justification, has got serious questions to answer. Anyone who claims to be resisting the encroachment of the EU but introduces the European arrest warrant when she doesn't have to has got serious questions to answer.
In my opinion, they want an 'inner circle' person to be lined up if and when Cameron loses the election. Hague, Hammond, Osborne or May would do. Which is why it's imperative in my view that they don't.
I have absolutely no problem with patriotism of any kind.
You'd better have a word with those pesky dictionaries.
noun noun: nationalism
patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts. "an early consciousness of nationalism and pride" synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism
Orwell;
" The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality. "
A perfect description of 'punch above our weight' British nationalism.
I have absolutely no problem with patriotism of any kind.
You'd better have a word with those pesky dictionaries.
noun noun: nationalism
patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts. "an early consciousness of nationalism and pride" synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism
I am with George Orwell on nationalism v patriotism:
Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
Lets hope Gove vs May doesnt overshadow the real story
"Pupils as young as six were taught to treat Western women as 'white prostitutes' by a school at the centre of the 'Trojan Horse' Islamist plot.
The shocking disclosure comes ahead of two bombshell reports into claims Muslim radicals conspired to infiltrate governing bodies of Birmingham schools.
A leaked copy of one report says teachers at Oldknow Academy told school inspectors they were alarmed by the use of terms such as ‘white prostitute’ and ‘hellfire’ in school assemblies, and that non-Muslim teachers were banned from being present."
I'd be very sceptical re some of the stuff you're reading in the msm on this. Ofsted etc have already rolled way back on some of the initial claims, including some re the six schools in the eye of the storm. I suspect that the fallout could create further problems for Gove down the line. All out tomorrow afternoon, so best to see what happens from then.
I have absolutely no problem with patriotism of any kind.
You'd better have a word with those pesky dictionaries.
noun noun: nationalism
patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts. "an early consciousness of nationalism and pride" synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism
Orwell;
" Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality. "
Why do supportes of parties that use terms such as "One Nation" think "Nationalist" is an insult?
I don't think nationalist is an insult. It's just a way of seeing the world that I do not share and do not particularly like.
How does it differ from "One nation"?
All parties claim to want to represent the whole country, but it seems to me that UKIP have a more evenly spread support across social class and regions than anyone else, and thats because they make no bones about putting our own nations people first.
Doing that is called xenophobic by others, but we elect politicans to look after our interests, not the rest of the worlds. Thats what their govts are for.
For me one of the fundamental traits of nationalism is the identification of enemies of the national interest/cause, and the advocacy of their removal. Patriots do not need enemies, nationalists do. For UKIP it's the EU, for the SNP it's Westminster, for Catalan nationalists it's Madrid, for Spanish nationalists it's Catalan and Basque nationalists, and so on.
I have absolutely no problem with patriotism of any kind.
You'd better have a word with those pesky dictionaries.
noun noun: nationalism
patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts. "an early consciousness of nationalism and pride" synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism
I am with George Orwell on nationalism v patriotism:
Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
Well we can all hide behind vague words that mean different things to different people or passive aggressive cowardice.
I am not patriotic in the sense of thinking England is better than anyone else just because its England, in any shape or form. But that doesnt mean that its people shouldnt expect their government to put their opinions and rights first. Thats what the government is elected to do.
There's nothing nostalgic about stating there is much more that unites the English and Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish) than divides them. Their views on everything from the NHS through the EU to nationalisation of the railways are pretty much the same
Euros
Scotland UKIP - 10% London UKIP - 17% rUK UKIP - 32% France FN - 25%
Facts are indeed facts.
Nationalist votes in Scotland - 39%
Nationalist votes in London - 17%
As I said yesterday, there's a lot more nationalism in Scotland. And slightly more than there is in rUK - but not by much. Quite a bit more than in France though.
Indeed. According to SO and other adherents of Cameron's Little Helpers:
British nationalism = good
Scottish nationalism = bad
Nope, I dislike both varieties. I have absolutely no problem with British, English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish patriotism though. Waving a flag does not make you a nationalist.
HurstLlama We are not at the heart of Europe, like the original core of France, the Benelux nations, Italy and West Germany. However what is clear is that those core members are also different from some members of the Eurozone like Spain and Greece, particularly Germany economically. The UK is closer to EU members on the outer fringe and often outside the Eurozone, like the Scandinavian and Eastern European nations (and in the case of Norway joining Switzerland outside the EU altogether). If Juncker withdraws and Dalia Grybauskaitė the president of Lithuania or Helle Thorning-Schmidt the Danish PM becomes the new EU Commission President as seems probable, the EU will be moving in the UK's direction http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10882531/Jean-Claude-Juncker-to-withdraw-bid-to-lead-European-Commission-sources-say.html
Well we can all hide behind vague words that mean different things to different people or passive aggressive cowardice.
I am not patriotic in the sense of thinking England is better than anyone else just because its England, in any shape or form. But that doesnt mean that its people shouldnt expect their government to put their opinions and rights first. Thats what the government is elected to do.
People have every right to expect that. And such expectations are not nationalist.
Why do supportes of parties that use terms such as "One Nation" think "Nationalist" is an insult?
I don't think nationalist is an insult. It's just a way of seeing the world that I do not share and do not particularly like.
How does it differ from "One nation"?
All parties claim to want to represent the whole country, but it seems to me that UKIP have a more evenly spread support across social class and regions than anyone else, and thats because they make no bones about putting our own nations people first.
Doing that is called xenophobic by others, but we elect politicans to look after our interests, not the rest of the worlds. Thats what their govts are for.
For me one of the fundamental traits of nationalism is the identification of enemies of the national interest/cause, and the advocacy of their removal. Patriots do not need enemies, nationalists do. For UKIP it's the EU, for the SNP it's Westminster, for Catalan nationalists it's Madrid, for Spanish nationalists it's Catalan and Basque nationalists, and so on.
Are you saying wanting to be an independent sovereign country is a negative trait? If Canada voted not to become part of America would that be Nationalist and therefore a bad thing?
Is what you really mean that if UKIP got us out of the EU, they would then turn on other parts of society as they need the fuel of an enemy to exist?
I don't trust May at all. I would like to, but I don't. I think anyone who stands down the police during the London riots, and then attempts legislation to snoop on people's BBM messages using the riots as justification, has got serious questions to answer. Anyone who claims to be resisting the encroachment of the EU but introduces the European arrest warrant when she doesn't have to has got serious questions to answer.
In my opinion, they want an 'inner circle' person to be lined up if and when Cameron loses the election. Hague, Hammond, Osborne or May would do. Which is why it's imperative in my view that they don't.
May stood down the police during the riots? Source please.
SO I think Juan Carlos stepped down at just the right time for his far more popular son. Interestingly here it is the reverse, the Queen is far more popular than Prince Charles, but William matches her popularity, so she will go on as long as she can to minimise Charles' reign and maximise William's
Why do supportes of parties that use terms such as "One Nation" think "Nationalist" is an insult?
I don't think nationalist is an insult. It's just a way of seeing the world that I do not share and do not particularly like.
How does it differ from "One nation"?
All parties claim to want to represent the whole country, but it seems to me that UKIP have a more evenly spread support across social class and regions than anyone else, and thats because they make no bones about putting our own nations people first.
Doing that is called xenophobic by others, but we elect politicans to look after our interests, not the rest of the worlds. Thats what their govts are for.
For me one of the fundamental traits of nationalism is the identification of enemies of the national interest/cause, and the advocacy of their removal. Patriots do not need enemies, nationalists do. For UKIP it's the EU, for the SNP it's Westminster, for Catalan nationalists it's Madrid, for Spanish nationalists it's Catalan and Basque nationalists, and so on.
Are you saying wanting to be an independent sovereign country is a negative trait? If Canada voted not to become part of America would that be Nationalist and therefore a bad thing?
Is what you really mean that if UKIP got us out of the EU, they would then turn on other parts of society as they need the fuel of an enemy to exist?
I believe that UKIP is a party that defines itself against a foreign enemy - the EU- and its fifth column - the metropolitan elite. So I think that should we withdraw from the EU and UKIP continues as a party beyond that there is every possibility that further enemies will be identified. They will no doubt be labelled as unBritish or anti-British, and accused of hating British culture and wanting to bring it down.
That said, I do not believe that wanting to withdraw from the EU in and of itself makes you a nationalist. It's the case that you make for withdrawal that does that.
Well we can all hide behind vague words that mean different things to different people or passive aggressive cowardice.
I am not patriotic in the sense of thinking England is better than anyone else just because its England, in any shape or form. But that doesnt mean that its people shouldnt expect their government to put their opinions and rights first. Thats what the government is elected to do.
People have every right to expect that. And such expectations are not nationalist.
For 50 years people have wanted a curb on immigration. Almost every opinion poll shows this. Yet anyone that suggests doing something about it is smeared with words like "Nationalist"
Well we can all hide behind vague words that mean different things to different people or passive aggressive cowardice.
I am not patriotic in the sense of thinking England is better than anyone else just because its England, in any shape or form. But that doesnt mean that its people shouldnt expect their government to put their opinions and rights first. Thats what the government is elected to do.
People have every right to expect that. And such expectations are not nationalist.
For 50 years people have wanted a curb on immigration. Almost every opinion poll shows this. Yet anyone that suggests doing something about it is smeared with words like "Nationalist"
Why do supportes of parties that use terms such as "One Nation" think "Nationalist" is an insult?
I don't think nationalist is an insult. It's just a way of seeing the world that I do not share and do not particularly like.
How does it differ from "One nation"?
All parties claim to want to represent the whole country, but it seems to me that UKIP have a more evenly spread support across social class and regions than anyone else, and thats because they make no bones about putting our own nations people first.
Doing that is called xenophobic by others, but we elect politicans to look after our interests, not the rest of the worlds. Thats what their govts are for.
For me one of the fundamental traits of nationalism is the identification of enemies of the national interest/cause, and the advocacy of their removal. Patriots do not need enemies, nationalists do. For UKIP it's the EU, for the SNP it's Westminster, for Catalan nationalists it's Madrid, for Spanish nationalists it's Catalan and Basque nationalists, and so on.
Are you saying wanting to be an independent sovereign country is a negative trait? If Canada voted not to become part of America would that be Nationalist and therefore a bad thing?
Is what you really mean that if UKIP got us out of the EU, they would then turn on other parts of society as they need the fuel of an enemy to exist?
I believe that UKIP is a party that defines itself against a foreign enemy - the EU- and its fifth column - the metropolitan elite. So I think that should we withdraw from the EU and UKIP continues as a party beyond that there is every possibility that further enemies will be identified. They will no doubt be labelled as unBritish or anti-British, and accused of hating British culture and wanting to bring it down.
That said, I do not believe that wanting to withdraw from the EU in and of itself makes you a nationalist. It's the case that you make for withdrawal that does that.
Oh well, I think its best to say what you think, be true to yourself and let others waste time projecting their own definitions on you.
No one has put the English working class first for generations, and its they who are adversely affected by the central tenet of EU membership, free movement of workers. Any party that puts that before its own people can call UKIP all the names they want, but they arent doing their job
Well we can all hide behind vague words that mean different things to different people or passive aggressive cowardice.
I am not patriotic in the sense of thinking England is better than anyone else just because its England, in any shape or form. But that doesnt mean that its people shouldnt expect their government to put their opinions and rights first. Thats what the government is elected to do.
People have every right to expect that. And such expectations are not nationalist.
For 50 years people have wanted a curb on immigration. Almost every opinion poll shows this. Yet anyone that suggests doing something about it is smeared with words like "Nationalist"
No, they're not.
Go on then give an example of someone who wanted a tangible curb on immigration who wasnt attacked as racist/natioonalist/xenophobic
Well we can all hide behind vague words that mean different things to different people or passive aggressive cowardice.
I am not patriotic in the sense of thinking England is better than anyone else just because its England, in any shape or form. But that doesnt mean that its people shouldnt expect their government to put their opinions and rights first. Thats what the government is elected to do.
People have every right to expect that. And such expectations are not nationalist.
For 50 years people have wanted a curb on immigration. Almost every opinion poll shows this. Yet anyone that suggests doing something about it is smeared with words like "Nationalist"
No, they're not.
Go on then give an example of someone who wanted a tangible curb on immigration who wasnt attacked as racist/natioonalist/xenophobic
As far as I can see all the major political parties support and advocate tangible curbs on immigration. And I agree that in the past the "racist" label was thrown around all too often as a tactic to shutdown debate about immigration. That was wrong and entirely counter-productive, which is one of the reasons why it does not happen very much anymore.
Well we can all hide behind vague words that mean different things to different people or passive aggressive cowardice.
I am not patriotic in the sense of thinking England is better than anyone else just because its England, in any shape or form. But that doesnt mean that its people shouldnt expect their government to put their opinions and rights first. Thats what the government is elected to do.
People have every right to expect that. And such expectations are not nationalist.
For 50 years people have wanted a curb on immigration. Almost every opinion poll shows this. Yet anyone that suggests doing something about it is smeared with words like "Nationalist"
No, they're not.
Go on then give an example of someone who wanted a tangible curb on immigration who wasnt attacked as racist/natioonalist/xenophobic
As far as I can see all political parties support and advocate tangible curbs on immigration.
SO I think Juan Carlos stepped down at just the right time for his far more popular son. Interestingly here it is the reverse, the Queen is far more popular than Prince Charles, but William matches her popularity, so she will go on as long as she can to minimise Charles' reign and maximise William's
The Queen will carry on as it is her duty. Popularity considerations don't come into it.
Well we can all hide behind vague words that mean different things to different people or passive aggressive cowardice.
I am not patriotic in the sense of thinking England is better than anyone else just because its England, in any shape or form. But that doesnt mean that its people shouldnt expect their government to put their opinions and rights first. Thats what the government is elected to do.
People have every right to expect that. And such expectations are not nationalist.
For 50 years people have wanted a curb on immigration. Almost every opinion poll shows this. Yet anyone that suggests doing something about it is smeared with words like "Nationalist"
No, they're not.
Go on then give an example of someone who wanted a tangible curb on immigration who wasnt attacked as racist/natioonalist/xenophobic
As far as I can see all political parties support and advocate tangible curbs on immigration.
Surbiton Using UKPR and the Newark swing I get a total of Tories 294, Labour 296 and LDs 28, so really the Tories neck and neck for largest party http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/swing-calculator
I did a test in the Telegraph website and found out that, I "side" with:
Greens 87%
SNP 84%
PC 75%
LD 74%
Lab 69%
BNP 34%
Con 31%
UKIP 20%
?????????????????????
Perhaps because you stand for centrist, social democratic policies in the good old British consensus tradition? The SNP are the last bastions of that Britishness. A curious paradox, but not its fault - though its opponents do not like being reminded of both facts.
Comments
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2014/06/camerons-real-target-neither-gove-nor-may-but-ministers-special-advisers.html
Well, she certainly "energises" me!
(did I just press 'send'???)
http://bit.ly/1hHa1yh
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/alternativemedicine/10739658/Has-the-Minister-for-Magic-Jeremy-Hunt-gone-too-far.html
https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/the-rio-report/paddy-power-under-fire-world-cup-publicity-stunt-081653782.html
Main story is Ed is a week behind in the news, shush no one tell him the Newark results...
Please send a hug and kiss to Mick for me.
Sack both of them. The party would have supported him because he got rid of two ferrets fighting in a sack.
Immediately, tell the country. He is tough, he is decisive. People like "tough" PM's
Instead he proved himself to be a weakling. Poor Fiona lost her job instead. Until yesterday the public did not even know her !
If he doesn't feel like keeping his head down at this point it might not be a bad jumping-off point for a Big Speech...
This infighting is nasty ! Imagine actually putting up the infamous letter from May to Gove on the official Home Office website !
Ouch !!
If the recent narrowing – and brief vanishing – of Labour's poll lead was linked to people focusing on an actual voting decision in actual elections, Miliband ought to be very worried. Kinnock welcomed Miliband's election as leader, saying, "We've got our party back." But in Miliband has the party got its Kinnock back?
Scotland UKIP - 10%
London UKIP - 17%
rUK UKIP - 32%
France FN - 25%
Facts are indeed facts.
But it is very typical. The dreary soviet decor of a flat in mutliple occupation; playing with a new Western toy, and, the shameless innocence of the demi-clad.
The problem is that it is all now being spoilt by Western market driven consumerism. Mixed in with the 'homely' and eccentric will be a bunch of professional date seekers whose photos will have been stolen from the new burgeoning local porn industry. All Empire gilt furnishing and faux leopardskin bed coverings.
The East really needs saving. We should march on Moscow immediately in the cause of good taste.
I believe tomorrow's headline, following the manoeuvring of a "Senior Labour Cabinet Minister, will be:
"Un rêve, une reeve"
"One obvious flaw with Osborne's narrative is that the government doesn't really have a long term plan. It used to have a long-term plan based around export drives, investment and a new model of growth that did not rely on consumer debt. Now it has a short-term plan to keep the economy going at full throttle until polling day."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/economics-blog/2014/jun/08/george-osborne-economic-policy
Nationalist votes in London - 17%
As I said yesterday, there's a lot more nationalism in Scotland. And slightly more than there is in rUK - but not by much. Quite a bit more than in France though.
I think we Brits are very much like the Russians, we are the bookends of Europe. Each part of Europe yet apart from it. Jealous of European civilisation and manners, yet also repelled by them. We can never be the good European Burghers that Junckers would so like, we are simply too coarse.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zABxJjGIDkU/SjVB15WaA6I/AAAAAAAAAno/X-yok7lOXPs/s1600-h/DeadSquirrel.jpg
"Pupils as young as six were taught to treat Western women as 'white prostitutes' by a school at the centre of the 'Trojan Horse' Islamist plot.
The shocking disclosure comes ahead of two bombshell reports into claims Muslim radicals conspired to infiltrate governing bodies of Birmingham schools.
A leaked copy of one report says teachers at Oldknow Academy told school inspectors they were alarmed by the use of terms such as ‘white prostitute’ and ‘hellfire’ in school assemblies, and that non-Muslim teachers were banned from being present."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651700/Hellfire-Muslim-teachers-Trojan-Horse-school-warned-six-year-olds-white-prostitutes.html#ixzz342e9ZJoz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
"
Tory/UKIP 47%
Progressives 44%
or, alternatively:
COA 40%
LAB 37%
Someone should have warned Gove about all this years ago.
A dreary and, in the main, inaccurate assessment of the economy by Larry Elliott.
Having a "long term plan" is not incompatible with having a "short term plan". On the contrary, the two tend to be mutually dependent. What is the point of having a long term plan if you don't know what to do tomorrow? And what is the point of acting tomorrow if you don't know where you going?
That said, GO has most definitely shaped the Treasury's management of the economy to align with electoral deadlines. It is why the post of Chancellor is generally given to a politician rather than an economist.
Of course, if you give it to a poor politician with little grasp of economic realities then you end your government in a deep recession after inheriting a stable and growing economy. The reason why, whoever forms a government in 2015, it won't be Gordon Brown.
You may well be right, I merely point out that Ozzie's "short term" plan looks a lot like Gordo's, and I wonder who will feel the "long term" pain.
http://tinyurl.com/nsep5ro
and this:
http://tinyurl.com/pjgl35p
and this:
http://tinyurl.com/puztdp6
They just hate calling it nationalism.
A good re-entry photo though.
After Newark, it must have taken some courage to return. Even Mark Senior took a week off.
You see nothing wrong with debt fueled consumer "growth"? I thought you had decided it was a bad thing?
Of course, the Brits are different from mainland Europe, we have never been conquered by the French for a start. De Gaulle didn't want us in the European club for sound reasons. Having lived here for a few years, he knew we didn't and would never fit in. Our whole outlook from the relationship of the individual to the state, legal system, to our whole world view was just too different. De Gaulle was correct, we really don't belong. Having the UK in the European Club is like me being a member of the Carlton Club (or Whites come to that), I just wouldn't fit and trying to force me to do so only causes unhappiness on both sides.
That is not to say our system of ideas is better or worse, nor that we can't be friends, good neighbours and cooperate when it is in out mutual interest to do so. Let us out of the EU and both sides will be happier and better off.
noun
noun: nationalism
patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
"an early consciousness of nationalism and pride"
synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism
All parties claim to want to represent the whole country, but it seems to me that UKIP have a more evenly spread support across social class and regions than anyone else, and thats because they make no bones about putting our own nations people first.
Doing that is called xenophobic by others, but we elect politicans to look after our interests, not the rest of the worlds. Thats what their govts are for
And congratulations too in continuing the great PB tradition of adopting an ironic moniker.
" Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality. "
Thanks all for another fine Sunday morning on PB.
British nationalism = good
Scottish nationalism = bad
In my opinion, they want an 'inner circle' person to be lined up if and when Cameron loses the election. Hague, Hammond, Osborne or May would do. Which is why it's imperative in my view that they don't.
http://yougov.co.uk/news/categories/politics/
http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/lwiuydgoju/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-x140606.pdf.pdf
Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat
SO parroting Monica parroting Orwell. Bettertogether!
Lib Dems 5/6 (Ladbrokes)
UKIP 5/4 (Hills)
I agree with Pulpstar: I'd like to know when the Green-LD match bet is coming out.
I am not patriotic in the sense of thinking England is better than anyone else just because its England, in any shape or form. But that doesnt mean that its people shouldnt expect their government to put their opinions and rights first. Thats what the government is elected to do.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10882531/Jean-Claude-Juncker-to-withdraw-bid-to-lead-European-Commission-sources-say.html
Is what you really mean that if UKIP got us out of the EU, they would then turn on other parts of society as they need the fuel of an enemy to exist?
However, I must admit that UKIP in the mid 20's will be different to high teens. I do not know of a swingometer which takes care of that.
http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/lwiuydgoju/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-x140606.pdf.pdf
That said, I do not believe that wanting to withdraw from the EU in and of itself makes you a nationalist. It's the case that you make for withdrawal that does that.
Italy 4/9 (various)
England 4/7 (Betfair, Betdaq)
Uruguay 4/7 (Hills)
Costa Rica 12/1 (Betfair)
No one has put the English working class first for generations, and its they who are adversely affected by the central tenet of EU membership, free movement of workers. Any party that puts that before its own people can call UKIP all the names they want, but they arent doing their job
Costa Rica looks like the value in that group. Italy are pisspoor too.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/swing-calculator
Greens 87%
SNP 84%
PC 75%
LD 74%
Lab 69%
BNP 34%
Con 31%
UKIP 20%
?????????????????????