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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Should the Lib Dems treat the 2015 election as their Rorke’

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  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    My sons primary (C of E) had links with a primary school in an asian part of Leicester, developed by the heads for just the same reason of promoting understanding. It was a good source of grants too.

    I remember the odd faux pa; notably when our headmaster arranged a sports day between the schools for the Queens golden jubilee. All fine and dandy until the hogroast arrived...
    AndyJS said:

    "Rural school deemed 'too white' by Ofsted visits London to mix with ethnic pupils
    Payhembury Primary in Devon was criticised for not being multicultural
    So visit planned to a school in London where most pupils are from minorities
    Smallberry Green primary in Isleworth, West London, will host 29 pupils
    Parents have called the £35 trip 'patronising' - though others welcome it"


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651108/Rural-school-deemed-white-Ofsted-visits-London-mix-ethnic-pupils.html

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Conservative, Labour and Lib Dems vote went down by 23,997 in Newark

    UKIPs went up by 8,074

    The Conservative vote went down 10,159

    If Labour and Lib Dems voted for them in any significant number, where did all the 2010 Conservatives go?

    For instance, if 20% of 2010 LDs (2,049) and 10% of 2010 Labs (1,143) voted Conservative to stop UKIP, that would mean 13,351 2010 Conservatives, or 48%, didnt vote for them in 2015

    Is that really plausible?

    A YouGov poll for the Sun this week shows that 40% of 2010 Tories are planning to vote for someone else or are don't knows/refused to say.
    Newark Tories from 2010?
    This is all Tories, so if Newark Tories are representative of all Tories, then add in the by-election factor, your 48% figure plausible
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    (Checks betting slips) They should certainly give up on Redcar!

    Which would achieve what though ?

    The nearest LibDem constituencies to Redcar are Leeds NW, Westmoreland and Berwick.

    Are the Redcar LibDems to be told to campaign in the others ? Leeds NW and Westmoreland should be safe, Berwick is likely to be lost in any case.

    At least in Redcar the LibDems can actually show something that they've achieved in government.

    On a wider point writing off seats already LibDem or where the LibDems have been strong previously will make it harder for the LibDems to rebuild.

    Eagles is wrong saying that this would only be for one electoral cycle. If they lose by 10,000+ votes rather than 2-3,000 the LibDems will need several electoral cycles to rebuild, in many places they could disappear forever.

    The worst recent bad result for the Lib Dems/Liberals was in the 1979 GE . Many said then that they would never recover , the reality was that the recovery started almost immediately even prior to the formation of the SDP , see the results of the early by elections of the 1979-83 Parliament .
    The difference now is that there are far more alternatives ready and waiting to fill a vacuum if one of the big parties stumbles badly. Those long-established still have substantial structural advantages over the newcomers but by a good deal less than in the past.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited June 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    MikeL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Hung Parliament, Lab largest party then?

    That's a Labour Majority as it stands.

    Not according to Peter Kellner it isn't.

    He thinks Lab may need a lead of 7% to get a majority.

    http://labourmajority.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Majority-Rules1.pdf

    MikeL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Hung Parliament, Lab largest party then?

    That's a Labour Majority as it stands.

    Not according to Peter Kellner it isn't.

    He thinks Lab may need a lead of 7% to get a majority.

    http://labourmajority.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Majority-Rules1.pdf

    Has he checked the results of the 2005 General Election ?
    Unlike 2005 though, incumbency is favouring Conservative this time, so I don't think Labour would be able to pull off that ridiculous 2005 result/majority in 2015.

    That said, I think they WOULD have a comfortable majority with 7%. I reakon 2-3% lead is about the minimum they need to get to 326 this time. 7% lead would give them a 2005 type majority...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958

    Mr. Eagles, heard it mentioned, never seen it.

    One of my all time favourite shows.

    Wonderfully quirky, with a mad scientist, staring Lord Denethor

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    MikeL said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Rod - is there a problem with the by-election model this time because by-elections have been very heavily skewed, ie

    - Vast majority in first half of the Parliament
    - 6 by-elections in November 2012
    - Very high proportion in Lab seats
    It's possible, but taking the average swing tries to dampen the effect. But still, you may have something...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Conservative, Labour and Lib Dems vote went down by 23,997 in Newark

    UKIPs went up by 8,074

    The Conservative vote went down 10,159

    If Labour and Lib Dems voted for them in any significant number, where did all the 2010 Conservatives go?

    For instance, if 20% of 2010 LDs (2,049) and 10% of 2010 Labs (1,143) voted Conservative to stop UKIP, that would mean 13,351 2010 Conservatives, or 48%, didnt vote for them in 2015

    Is that really plausible?

    A YouGov poll for the Sun this week shows that 40% of 2010 Tories are planning to vote for someone else or are don't knows/refused to say.
    Newark Tories from 2010?
    This is all Tories, so if Newark Tories are representative of all Tories, then add in the by-election factor, your 48% figure plausible
    Do you have a link please?

    How many 2010 C said theyd vote UKIP? 22% ish?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited June 2014
    It's going to be a very confusing day come GE2015 for a Thanet South left leaning Lib Dem voter.

    So you've voted Lib Dem in the previous election, and you realise that quite honestly voting Lib Dem again would be more of a wasted vote than the Bus Pass Elvis party.

    Your preferred second choice is Labour, but they look a long way off. You're desperate to get rid of the Conservatives, but you don't want Farage to win either. Quite honestly a vote for Labour may well be wasted too.

    So do you vote Conservative to stop Farage ?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Going to leave the pre-race piece for tomorrow. Although the grid's nicely set up for the race nothing's jumping out at me in betting terms.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Conservative, Labour and Lib Dems vote went down by 23,997 in Newark

    UKIPs went up by 8,074

    The Conservative vote went down 10,159

    If Labour and Lib Dems voted for them in any significant number, where did all the 2010 Conservatives go?

    For instance, if 20% of 2010 LDs (2,049) and 10% of 2010 Labs (1,143) voted Conservative to stop UKIP, that would mean 13,351 2010 Conservatives, or 48%, didnt vote for them in 2015

    Is that really plausible?

    A YouGov poll for the Sun this week shows that 40% of 2010 Tories are planning to vote for someone else or are don't knows/refused to say.
    Newark Tories from 2010?
    This is all Tories, so if Newark Tories are representative of all Tories, then add in the by-election factor, your 48% figure plausible
    Do you have a link please?

    How many 2010 C said theyd vote UKIP? 22% ish?
    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/ind922q389/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-020614.pdf

    For UKIP, it was 20%
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MikeL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Hung Parliament, Lab largest party then?

    That's a Labour Majority as it stands.

    Not according to Peter Kellner it isn't.

    He thinks Lab may need a lead of 7% to get a majority.

    http://labourmajority.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Majority-Rules1.pdf

    MikeL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Hung Parliament, Lab largest party then?

    That's a Labour Majority as it stands.

    Not according to Peter Kellner it isn't.

    He thinks Lab may need a lead of 7% to get a majority.

    http://labourmajority.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Majority-Rules1.pdf

    Has he checked the results of the 2005 General Election ?
    Unlike 2005 though, incumbency is favouring Conservative this time, so I don't think Labour would be able to pull off that ridiculous 2005 result/majority in 2015.
    I think you're likely to be proved correct.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Hung Parliament, Lab largest party then?

    That's a Labour Majority as it stands.

    Hope Ashcroft does a Vote "why" on Newark !
    I think with incumbency favouring Con, Lab would struggle to get 326 with less than a 2% lead?

    Disagree. LAB can win majority if shares are =. Ashcroft showed in latest marginals poll in that the red team doing better than national polling in key seats.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    Pulpstar said:

    MikeL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Hung Parliament, Lab largest party then?

    That's a Labour Majority as it stands.

    Not according to Peter Kellner it isn't.

    He thinks Lab may need a lead of 7% to get a majority.

    http://labourmajority.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Majority-Rules1.pdf

    MikeL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Hung Parliament, Lab largest party then?

    That's a Labour Majority as it stands.

    Not according to Peter Kellner it isn't.

    He thinks Lab may need a lead of 7% to get a majority.

    http://labourmajority.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Majority-Rules1.pdf

    Has he checked the results of the 2005 General Election ?
    One would imagine so given that he is one of the most knowledgeable pollsters / pundits in the country.

    His view is also noteworthy given that it is contrary to the normal cheerleading posts which are churned out on here ad nauseam, ie:

    - Supporter of Party X predicts Party X will win / do better than expected
    - Supporter of Party Y predicts Party Y will win / do better than expected
    - Supporter of Party Z predicts Party Z will win / do better than expected

    Whereas Kellner is a Lab supporter predicting that Lab will underperform UNS.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    RodCrosby said:

    MikeL said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Rod - is there a problem with the by-election model this time because by-elections have been very heavily skewed, ie

    - Vast majority in first half of the Parliament
    - 6 by-elections in November 2012
    - Very high proportion in Lab seats
    It's possible, but taking the average swing tries to dampen the effect. But still, you may have something...
    But the point is that it's the average of a skewed sample.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2014

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Conservative, Labour and Lib Dems vote went down by 23,997 in Newark

    UKIPs went up by 8,074

    The Conservative vote went down 10,159

    If Labour and Lib Dems voted for them in any significant number, where did all the 2010 Conservatives go?

    For instance, if 20% of 2010 LDs (2,049) and 10% of 2010 Labs (1,143) voted Conservative to stop UKIP, that would mean 13,351 2010 Conservatives, or 48%, didnt vote for them in 2015

    Is that really plausible?

    A YouGov poll for the Sun this week shows that 40% of 2010 Tories are planning to vote for someone else or are don't knows/refused to say.
    Newark Tories from 2010?
    This is all Tories, so if Newark Tories are representative of all Tories, then add in the by-election factor, your 48% figure plausible
    Do you have a link please?

    How many 2010 C said theyd vote UKIP? 22% ish?
    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/ind922q389/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-020614.pdf

    For UKIP, it was 20%
    Am I looking at p1?

    Dont 2010 Cons split 69/6/1/24?

    Do I divide the 69 by 115 (13+2 DK WNV) to get 60%?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited June 2014

    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Hung Parliament, Lab largest party then?

    That's a Labour Majority as it stands.

    Hope Ashcroft does a Vote "why" on Newark !
    I think with incumbency favouring Con, Lab would struggle to get 326 with less than a 2% lead?

    Disagree. LAB can win majority if shares are =. Ashcroft showed in latest marginals poll in that the red team doing better than national polling in key seats.
    Well yes, if the marginals swung more than UNS of course Labour would have a bigger majority. But expecting the marginals to swing more is a fall's game, IMO.

    In the end, the swing in the marginals is usually very similar to the national swing once you average it all out.

    Of course 2015 might be different, but I doubt it...

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Conservative, Labour and Lib Dems vote went down by 23,997 in Newark

    UKIPs went up by 8,074

    The Conservative vote went down 10,159

    If Labour and Lib Dems voted for them in any significant number, where did all the 2010 Conservatives go?

    For instance, if 20% of 2010 LDs (2,049) and 10% of 2010 Labs (1,143) voted Conservative to stop UKIP, that would mean 13,351 2010 Conservatives, or 48%, didnt vote for them in 2015

    Is that really plausible?

    A YouGov poll for the Sun this week shows that 40% of 2010 Tories are planning to vote for someone else or are don't knows/refused to say.
    Newark Tories from 2010?
    This is all Tories, so if Newark Tories are representative of all Tories, then add in the by-election factor, your 48% figure plausible
    Do you have a link please?

    How many 2010 C said theyd vote UKIP? 22% ish?
    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/ind922q389/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-020614.pdf

    For UKIP, it was 20%
    Am I looking at p1?

    Dont 2010 Cons split 69/6/1/24?
    You need to add on the 15% Non voters, slightly down page one.

    So that 69 becomes 69 out of 115 = 60%, which means 40% of 2010 Tories aren't planning to vote Tory.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Hung Parliament, Lab largest party then?

    That's a Labour Majority as it stands.

    Hope Ashcroft does a Vote "why" on Newark !
    I think with incumbency favouring Con, Lab would struggle to get 326 with less than a 2% lead?

    Disagree. LAB can win majority if shares are =. Ashcroft showed in latest marginals poll in that the red team doing better than national polling in key seats.
    Marginals polls, as we know from history, are hardly conclusive evidence of anything...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Who was it who posted ze Suzie Wolff story?

    She has a rebuttal video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kyry6lQ0go
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    MikeL said:

    RodCrosby said:

    MikeL said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Rod - is there a problem with the by-election model this time because by-elections have been very heavily skewed, ie

    - Vast majority in first half of the Parliament
    - 6 by-elections in November 2012
    - Very high proportion in Lab seats
    It's possible, but taking the average swing tries to dampen the effect. But still, you may have something...
    But the point is that it's the average of a skewed sample.
    It's not that skewed actually...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Is it me or is the battle to be the next Conservative Leader being played out right now ?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Pulpstar, jein.

    I said all along May was just playing with this to try and bolster her own prospects for the leadership (which diminishes her, in my view). But she and Gove are not the only potential contenders.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited June 2014
    I was watching some of the 1992 election on YouTube a few day's ago and Labour was pinning all their hopes of the marginals swinging more than the national swing that year.

    Even at 2am Labour politicians were still coming on telly claiming the Tories were going to lose their majority once the marginals had all declared.

    It got pretty embarrassing in the end, LOL.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,588
    I take it that is Lord Oakeshott shouting in the video "You're all going to die"?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Mr. Pulpstar, jein.

    I said all along May was just playing with this to try and bolster her own prospects for the leadership (which diminishes her, in my view). But she and Gove are not the only potential contenders.

    Hmm they might be the two big ones though, once Hunt, Hammond and Patel's supporters split off.

    If they are May will slaughter Gove. Absolutely annihilate him.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Speedy said:

    corporeal said:

    Speedy said:

    (Checks betting slips) They should certainly give up on Redcar!

    Which would achieve what though ?

    The nearest LibDem constituencies to Redcar are Leeds NW, Westmoreland and Berwick.

    Are the Redcar LibDems to be told to campaign in the others ? Leeds NW and Westmoreland should be safe, Berwick is likely to be lost in any case.

    At least in Redcar the LibDems can actually show something that they've achieved in government.

    On a wider point writing off seats already LibDem or where the LibDems have been strong previously will make it harder for the LibDems to rebuild.

    Eagles is wrong saying that this would only be for one electoral cycle. If they lose by 10,000+ votes rather than 2-3,000 the LibDems will need several electoral cycles to rebuild, in many places they could disappear forever.

    The worst recent bad result for the Lib Dems/Liberals was in the 1979 GE . Many said then that they would never recover , the reality was that the recovery started almost immediately even prior to the formation of the SDP , see the results of the early by elections of the 1979-83 Parliament .
    Its actually proof that when there is political polarisation the liberal center loses votes, but neither the 1979 nor the 1992 GE was a bad result for the Liberals they only fell 4-5% and lost only 2 MP's.
    We are talking about them losing 2/3 of their vote and half their MP's next year, now that's a bad result, plus the chances that Labour are going to split again in the near future are nil.
    Nonsense, the biggest advances were during polarisation.
    Sure, Liberals did great in the 1950's, they even managed to get elected in seats, though only 6.
    I'm genuinely confused. Politics was severely polarised through the 80s for example, moreso than in 1979.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    @Corporeal

    Any reason the Lib Dems will outperform in St Ives relative to the rest of the South West ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,114
    corporeal said:

    Speedy said:

    corporeal said:

    Speedy said:

    (Checks betting slips) They should certainly give up on Redcar!

    Which would achieve what though ?

    The nearest LibDem constituencies to Redcar are Leeds NW, Westmoreland and Berwick.

    Are the Redcar LibDems to be told to campaign in the others ? Leeds NW and Westmoreland should be safe, Berwick is likely to be lost in any case.

    At least in Redcar the LibDems can actually show something that they've achieved in government.

    On a wider point writing off seats already LibDem or where the LibDems have been strong previously will make it harder for the LibDems to rebuild.

    Eagles is wrong saying that this would only be for one electoral cycle. If they lose by 10,000+ votes rather than 2-3,000 the LibDems will need several electoral cycles to rebuild, in many places they could disappear forever.

    The worst recent bad result for the Lib Dems/Liberals was in the 1979 GE . Many said then that they would never recover , the reality was that the recovery started almost immediately even prior to the formation of the SDP , see the results of the early by elections of the 1979-83 Parliament .
    Its actually proof that when there is political polarisation the liberal center loses votes, but neither the 1979 nor the 1992 GE was a bad result for the Liberals they only fell 4-5% and lost only 2 MP's.
    We are talking about them losing 2/3 of their vote and half their MP's next year, now that's a bad result, plus the chances that Labour are going to split again in the near future are nil.
    Nonsense, the biggest advances were during polarisation.
    Sure, Liberals did great in the 1950's, they even managed to get elected in seats, though only 6.
    I'm genuinely confused. Politics was severely polarised through the 80s for example, moreso than in 1979.
    But the LibDems only took off in seats won in 1997 when Blair's Third Way was all the rage.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Conservative, Labour and Lib Dems vote went down by 23,997 in Newark

    UKIPs went up by 8,074

    The Conservative vote went down 10,159

    If Labour and Lib Dems voted for them in any significant number, where did all the 2010 Conservatives go?

    For instance, if 20% of 2010 LDs (2,049) and 10% of 2010 Labs (1,143) voted Conservative to stop UKIP, that would mean 13,351 2010 Conservatives, or 48%, didnt vote for them in 2015

    Is that really plausible?

    A YouGov poll for the Sun this week shows that 40% of 2010 Tories are planning to vote for someone else or are don't knows/refused to say.
    Newark Tories from 2010?
    This is all Tories, so if Newark Tories are representative of all Tories, then add in the by-election factor, your 48% figure plausible
    Do you have a link please?

    How many 2010 C said theyd vote UKIP? 22% ish?
    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/ind922q389/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-020614.pdf

    For UKIP, it was 20%
    Am I looking at p1?

    Dont 2010 Cons split 69/6/1/24?
    You need to add on the 15% Non voters, slightly down page one.

    So that 69 becomes 69 out of 115 = 60%, which means 40% of 2010 Tories aren't planning to vote Tory.

    Got it thanks.

    If that pattern followed in Newark we would get

    Con 44 (49)
    Lab 30 (19)
    LD 7.6 (2.8)
    UKIP 18.4 (28.4)

    The brackets are the actual %s after getting rid of the Indys/Greens and others

    I have just wasted 10 mins working that out when I should be getting ready to go out, and it proves absolutely nothing as far as where 2010 voters went/who stayed at home.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    Not very serious addition to the theme: I have Just noticed this comment by Ian Bell in the Herald

    "The LibDems are playing out one of those zombie movies in which half the cast get their brains eaten."

    Must have been the filming of the zombie movie in Glasgow with Brad Pitt which put him in zombie rather than Zulu mental mode!

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/ukip-are-still-englands-little-problem.24361757
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Fascinating to note that the Lib Dems were closer to Labour in 2010 than Labour were to the Conservatives.

    It's one of those facts that you have to look at a while to realise it's true.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Pulpstar said:

    @Corporeal

    Any reason the Lib Dems will outperform in St Ives relative to the rest of the South West ?

    Hmm.

    Andrew George is a long-time MP, he's local and was the first LD to hold the seat (and local plays in Cornwall as much as anywhere in the country and more than most places). The Conservatives were a little delayed by the whole boundary thing but not much. Iirc the Lib Dems have been holding their seats on Cornwall council well (largest party I believe) but that tends to be more north Cornwall.

    What I would say is I think St Ives is going to see a sizable UKIP jump, but a big split in the vote is really the only way I see the LDs holding the seat.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    edited June 2014

    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Hung Parliament, Lab largest party then?

    That's a Labour Majority as it stands.

    Hope Ashcroft does a Vote "why" on Newark !
    I think with incumbency favouring Con, Lab would struggle to get 326 with less than a 2% lead?

    Disagree. LAB can win majority if shares are =. Ashcroft showed in latest marginals poll in that the red team doing better than national polling in key seats.
    That's not what Ashcroft found. Per Anthony Wells:

    Ashcroft swing in Con marginals = 5.5%
    National swing in polls done at the same time = 5.5%

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/page/2
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2014
    Opinium:

    Lab 35% (+2)
    Con 31% (-1)
    UKIP 19% (nc)
    LD 6% (-1)
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    corporeal said:

    Speedy said:

    corporeal said:

    Speedy said:

    (Checks betting slips) They should certainly give up on Redcar!

    Which would achieve what though ?

    The nearest LibDem constituencies to Redcar are Leeds NW, Westmoreland and Berwick.

    Are the Redcar LibDems to be told to campaign in the others ? Leeds NW and Westmoreland should be safe, Berwick is likely to be lost in any case.

    At least in Redcar the LibDems can actually show something that they've achieved in government.

    On a wider point writing off seats already LibDem or where the LibDems have been strong previously will make it harder for the LibDems to rebuild.

    Eagles is wrong saying that this would only be for one electoral cycle. If they lose by 10,000+ votes rather than 2-3,000 the LibDems will need several electoral cycles to rebuild, in many places they could disappear forever.

    The worst recent bad result for the Lib Dems/Liberals was in the 1979 GE . Many said then that they would never recover , the reality was that the recovery started almost immediately even prior to the formation of the SDP , see the results of the early by elections of the 1979-83 Parliament .
    Its actually proof that when there is political polarisation the liberal center loses votes, but neither the 1979 nor the 1992 GE was a bad result for the Liberals they only fell 4-5% and lost only 2 MP's.
    We are talking about them losing 2/3 of their vote and half their MP's next year, now that's a bad result, plus the chances that Labour are going to split again in the near future are nil.
    Nonsense, the biggest advances were during polarisation.
    Sure, Liberals did great in the 1950's, they even managed to get elected in seats, though only 6.
    I'm genuinely confused. Politics was severely polarised through the 80s for example, moreso than in 1979.
    But the LibDems only took off in seats won in 1997 when Blair's Third Way was all the rage.
    Due to a strategy change, focus on seats etc coming off.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    corporeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Corporeal

    Any reason the Lib Dems will outperform in St Ives relative to the rest of the South West ?

    Hmm.

    Andrew George is a long-time MP, he's local and was the first LD to hold the seat (and local plays in Cornwall as much as anywhere in the country and more than most places). The Conservatives were a little delayed by the whole boundary thing but not much. Iirc the Lib Dems have been holding their seats on Cornwall council well (largest party I believe) but that tends to be more north Cornwall.

    What I would say is I think St Ives is going to see a sizable UKIP jump, but a big split in the vote is really the only way I see the LDs holding the seat.

    CON 5-4 Paddy Power. Just put the remainder of my current balance (£11.79) on it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Pulpstar said:

    corporeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Corporeal

    Any reason the Lib Dems will outperform in St Ives relative to the rest of the South West ?

    Hmm.

    Andrew George is a long-time MP, he's local and was the first LD to hold the seat (and local plays in Cornwall as much as anywhere in the country and more than most places). The Conservatives were a little delayed by the whole boundary thing but not much. Iirc the Lib Dems have been holding their seats on Cornwall council well (largest party I believe) but that tends to be more north Cornwall.

    What I would say is I think St Ives is going to see a sizable UKIP jump, but a big split in the vote is really the only way I see the LDs holding the seat.

    CON 5-4 Paddy Power. Just put the remainder of my current balance (£11.79) on it.
    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/uk-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=1214564
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    AndyJS said:

    Opinium:

    Lab 35% (+2)
    Con 31% (-1)
    UKIP 19% (nc)
    LD 6% (-1)

    No Newark Bounce there for Team Blue! ;)

  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, jein.


    I said all along May was just playing with this to try and bolster her own prospects for the leadership (which diminishes her, in my view). But she and Gove are not the only potential contenders.

    Hmm they might be the two big ones though, once Hunt, Hammond and Patel's supporters split off.

    If they are May will slaughter Gove. Absolutely annihilate him.
    Gove is a resolute supporter of Osborne (who will be a very strong contender if the Tories win next year), so the premise is dubious).

    In any event, would May slaughter Gove among Tory MPs (who decide which two candidates go forward),still less the members themselves - I don't think so whatever ComHome polls may say.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Pulpstar said:

    corporeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @Corporeal

    Any reason the Lib Dems will outperform in St Ives relative to the rest of the South West ?

    Hmm.

    Andrew George is a long-time MP, he's local and was the first LD to hold the seat (and local plays in Cornwall as much as anywhere in the country and more than most places). The Conservatives were a little delayed by the whole boundary thing but not much. Iirc the Lib Dems have been holding their seats on Cornwall council well (largest party I believe) but that tends to be more north Cornwall.

    What I would say is I think St Ives is going to see a sizable UKIP jump, but a big split in the vote is really the only way I see the LDs holding the seat.

    CON 5-4 Paddy Power. Just put the remainder of my current balance (£11.79) on it.
    I like Andrew, and I think everything I mentioned will play, but with things the way they are it's very hard to make a LD 1700 majority a favourite.


  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,114
    corporeal said:

    corporeal said:

    Speedy said:

    corporeal said:

    Speedy said:

    (Checks betting slips) They should certainly give up on Redcar!

    Which would achieve what though ?

    The nearest LibDem constituencies to Redcar are Leeds NW, Westmoreland and Berwick.

    Are the Redcar LibDems to be told to campaign in the others ? Leeds NW and Westmoreland should be safe, Berwick is likely to be lost in any case.

    At least in Redcar the LibDems can actually show something that they've achieved in government.

    On a wider point writing off seats already LibDem or where the LibDems have been strong previously will make it harder for the LibDems to rebuild.

    Eagles is wrong saying that this would only be for one electoral cycle. If they lose by 10,000+ votes rather than 2-3,000 the LibDems will need several electoral cycles to rebuild, in many places they could disappear forever.

    The worst recent bad result for the Lib Dems/Liberals was in the 1979 GE . Many said then that they would never recover , the reality was that the recovery started almost immediately even prior to the formation of the SDP , see the results of the early by elections of the 1979-83 Parliament .
    Its actually proof that when there is political polarisation the liberal center loses votes, but neither the 1979 nor the 1992 GE was a bad result for the Liberals they only fell 4-5% and lost only 2 MP's.
    We are talking about them losing 2/3 of their vote and half their MP's next year, now that's a bad result, plus the chances that Labour are going to split again in the near future are nil.
    Nonsense, the biggest advances were during polarisation.
    Sure, Liberals did great in the 1950's, they even managed to get elected in seats, though only 6.
    I'm genuinely confused. Politics was severely polarised through the 80s for example, moreso than in 1979.
    But the LibDems only took off in seats won in 1997 when Blair's Third Way was all the rage.
    Due to a strategy change, focus on seats etc coming off.
    see here: http://t.co/BpexFKU1lZ
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    GIN1138 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Opinium:

    Lab 35% (+2)
    Con 31% (-1)
    UKIP 19% (nc)
    LD 6% (-1)

    No Newark Bounce there for Team Blue! ;)

    I think I saw it was done before then?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    RodCrosby said:

    MikeL said:

    RodCrosby said:

    MikeL said:

    RodCrosby said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RodCrosby said:

    More Battle of Chilianwala than Rourke's Drift?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chillianwala

    I had a great-great-great uncle who fought at that with the 29th Foot...
    Rod, how's your swingback model looking after Newark?

    1.2% forecast Labour lead, down from 2.0%...
    Rod - is there a problem with the by-election model this time because by-elections have been very heavily skewed, ie

    - Vast majority in first half of the Parliament
    - 6 by-elections in November 2012
    - Very high proportion in Lab seats
    It's possible, but taking the average swing tries to dampen the effect. But still, you may have something...
    But the point is that it's the average of a skewed sample.
    It's not that skewed actually...
    I've played around with a model which takes the average of the yearly average BE swing (as opposed to the average of them all) to try and correct for skewness, and it makes no substantive difference (fractionally less predictive power in fact).

    I'm testing another model which inputs both BEs and LEs. Looks promising. R^2 of 98.5%.

    Predicts Labour losing by 4.3% at the moment...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    New Thread
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    Gove is a total non-starter for Con leader unless Con MPs want to guarantee they lose the next GE.

    But one would have thought that enough Con MPs would realise that he would put their own seats in serious danger that they wouldn't entertain the idea - even if they don't mind the Con party staying in opposition.
  • There's support from the central party that costs money, and there's support that doesn't. Not to give any of the latter - outside some phone canvassing - was counter-productive. If nothing else, Clegg turning up could have got him some people willing to go to nearby Sheffield come the general election.

    If the Cambridge by-election happens, it's going to be interesting to see what happens with the LibDem campaign. They're not going to win, but coming fourth, say, after being so clearly in second place would be bad for morale everywhere.
This discussion has been closed.