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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » No boundary changes and no AV: EdM is proving to be a lucky

SystemSystem Posts: 12,182
edited May 2013 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » No boundary changes and no AV: EdM is proving to be a lucky LAB leader

There is a bit of talk as to whether certain Conservative MP are able to be endorsed by UKIP and stand with two party emblems next to their name on the ballots paper. This is now possible under updated election law. This week Peter Bone MP took to the airwaves arguing for joint Conservative and UKIP candidates to take advantage of this:

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    So Ed is crap but lucky.

    Someone should come up with a maxim about Lucky generals.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    So Ed is crap but lucky.

    Someone should come up with a maxim about Lucky generals.

    "Lucky generals are generally lucky"
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    I think AV is overestimated.

    We keep on getting told that the biggest political element in the county is the anyone but the Conservatives movement.

    AV would have helped that demographic.

    As Chris Huhne said AV would have denied Thatcher majorities in the 80s.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited May 2013
    Lucky leader - the two Eds made speeches about reforming the banking sector in July 2012 at The Co-Op Bank HQ.

    Almost 10 months to the day, the Co-Op bank debt is downgraded to junk status, so far nothing from Balls, Leslie, Creasy and others who have been calling for an end to loan sharks, unethical lending and putting people before profits. Will the Labour Party's own debt be part of the junk?

    Have they something to hide?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    dr_spyn said:


    Have they something to hide?

    No.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Lucky for Cameron they picked rEd.

    He is going to be crucified in the GE.

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @Neil

    Degraded bank, Degraded Party, Degraded Policies on Banking Reform. So what has happened to the ethical stance in their lending division?

    http://www.party.coop/lists/members-of-parliament/

    It might keep some of them out of the media until it all dies down.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    FPT

    That will be fun. Unions running a bank.

    'slow progress on integrating the Britannia building society which it took over three years ago.'

    IT disaster?

    'Hayes said the unions are likely to call for a public inquiry into what went wrong at Co-op Bank'

    It's up to the shareholders to hold the bank and it's directors to account. No need for a publicly funded enquiry.

    Thinking further, that might be the problem. Does the Co Op Bank have shareholders as such, capable of influence over the board and executives?
    What might be the problem you ask?

    Perhaps this extract from the Co-op Banking Group's 2012 Annual Report might help answer part of that question:

    A note on political donations

    During the year, an annual donation of £563,000 (2011: £533,000) was made to The Co-operative Party. In addition, £242,000 (2011: £234,000) was paid in grants to Co-operative Party Councils. The Group Board also authorised a donation of £10,000 as a contribution to The Co-operative Party’s campaigning activities in advance of the May 2012 Greater London Authority and London Mayoral elections. In addition, a number of donations totalling £28,500 (2011: £28,500) (including in-kind contributions) were made to The Co-operative Party to support a range of activity including party conferences. The Co-operative Party reports donations to the Electoral Commission in accordance with its reporting obligations as a registered political party under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

    The Group Board also approved the donation of £50,000 through the Labour Party to support the Shadow Chancellor’s office.

    Furthermore, during the course of 2012, a number of donations were made to support various Labour Party events, including at a national and local level with a value of no more than £11,550. With 2012 designated by the United Nations as the International Year of Co-operatives, the Group has also supported a number of Parliamentarians who have undertaken study tours about the global co-operative sector, and these donations have been recorded in relevant Registers of Financial Interests.


    Time for Osborne to try an EU style bailin by the bank's depositors?

    *titters*
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @TGOHF I was most struck by this comment from the transport committee:

    "The viability of an estuary hub airport would also require the closure of Heathrow – a course of action that would have unacceptable consequences for individuals, businesses in the vicinity of the existing airport and the local economy."

    Not "significant". Not "large". Not "greater than other options". Just "unacceptable". It's worth bearing in mind that replacing Heathrow with an airport elsewhere would recreate all those jobs and businesses somewhere else. This doesn't sound like this has been a cost-benefit analysis, this sounds like they've buckled to scare-mongering from the BAA lobby, and local MPs.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    dr_spyn said:


    It might keep some of them out of the media until it all dies down.

    Good luck with that.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    tim said:

    @Spyn.

    Remember what a fool George Osborne made of himself with his Libor Conspiracy theories, did you learn nothing?

    Seeing that there WAS a conspiracy over the LIBOR, you might want to word your criticism better.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,537
    Well, if the Tories ARE going be crying in mid 2015 about how they've been robbed by UKIP, I, as a supporter of a better electoral system will have a smile so broad ....

    Wrong to gloat; mustn't gloat. But gloat I will!

    Not counting chickens though. Just dreaming!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768

    Well, if the Tories ARE going be crying in mid 2015 about how they've been robbed by UKIP, I, as a supporter of a better electoral system will have a smile so broad ....

    Wrong to gloat; mustn't gloat. But gloat I will!

    Not counting chickens though. Just dreaming!

    Just remember some of us Tories are in favour of electoral reform.

    STV by 2025, and wholly elected Upper House before that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,869
    Socrates said:

    @TGOHF I was most struck by this comment from the transport committee:

    "The viability of an estuary hub airport would also require the closure of Heathrow – a course of action that would have unacceptable consequences for individuals, businesses in the vicinity of the existing airport and the local economy."

    Not "significant". Not "large". Not "greater than other options". Just "unacceptable". It's worth bearing in mind that replacing Heathrow with an airport elsewhere would recreate all those jobs and businesses somewhere else. This doesn't sound like this has been a cost-benefit analysis, this sounds like they've buckled to scare-mongering from the BAA lobby, and local MPs.

    Quite. They really mean 'unacceptable consequences for the Spanish owners of BAA'. Of course BAA has now been renamed 'Heathrow Airport Holdings' just to make this course of action seem even more unacceptable.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.

    It's worth noting the size of the 'hole' at the Co-Op is enormous relative to its size. If the numbers I've seen are correct, it is under-capitalised by about £1bn. And given the unusual structure of the group, it's hard to see anyone - other than the government itself - stepping in to fill the hole.

    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299

    Socrates said:

    @TGOHF I was most struck by this comment from the transport committee:

    "The viability of an estuary hub airport would also require the closure of Heathrow – a course of action that would have unacceptable consequences for individuals, businesses in the vicinity of the existing airport and the local economy."

    Not "significant". Not "large". Not "greater than other options". Just "unacceptable". It's worth bearing in mind that replacing Heathrow with an airport elsewhere would recreate all those jobs and businesses somewhere else. This doesn't sound like this has been a cost-benefit analysis, this sounds like they've buckled to scare-mongering from the BAA lobby, and local MPs.

    Quite. They really mean 'unacceptable consequences for the Spanish owners of BAA'. Of course BAA has now been renamed 'Heathrow Airport Holdings' just to make this course of action seem even more unacceptable.
    @williamglenn - I could be wrong, but I think Ferrovial has been quietly selling down its stake in Heathrow. This is all from memory, but I believe it's share is now only 44%, with the Qatari sovereign wealth fund owning a large chunk.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    rcs1000 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.

    It's worth noting the size of the 'hole' at the Co-Op is enormous relative to its size. If the numbers I've seen are correct, it is under-capitalised by about £1bn. And given the unusual structure of the group, it's hard to see anyone - other than the government itself - stepping in to fill the hole.

    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?
    Depends which party is in government isn't in.... Brown couldn't fall over himself fast enough to support Northern Rock.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited May 2013
    Is there any regret at all among Tories that they opposed AV in the referendum?

    Of course not, because:

    (a) You've explained the principle succinctly in your piece; "Instead David Cameron’s Conservatives are now going to have to try and win back the support of UKIP while not alienating their more moderate supporters.". Precisely: FPTP forces parties to build a broad consensus on a pre-agreed manifesto. An election is not an opportunity to express some half-baked disgruntlement, nor is it an opinion poll: it's about making a choice.

    (b) Anyway, even in crude party-political calculation terms, it's very unlikely that AV would help the Conservatives.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    The Scottish Affairs committee will have a session on the pension implications of Scottish Independence next week. Until the Scottish Government fleshes out how it will mitigate the potential impact of "cross-border" regulations on scheme funding this is probably a good issue for the "no" campaign to try to highlight.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299

    rcs1000 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.

    It's worth noting the size of the 'hole' at the Co-Op is enormous relative to its size. If the numbers I've seen are correct, it is under-capitalised by about £1bn. And given the unusual structure of the group, it's hard to see anyone - other than the government itself - stepping in to fill the hole.

    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?
    Depends which party is in government isn't in.... Brown couldn't fall over himself fast enough to support Northern Rock.
    Well: to be fair, he didn't have a whole bunch of choice once all the other bidders had pulled out. The alternative would have been to have let the bank go bust, with a lot of depositors getting a Cypriot style haircut. (Which would have let to depositors in Bradford & Bingley running for the exit, which would have let to that firm going bust, and depositors getting haircuts, etc. etc. etc.)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    @TGOHF I was most struck by this comment from the transport committee:

    "The viability of an estuary hub airport would also require the closure of Heathrow – a course of action that would have unacceptable consequences for individuals, businesses in the vicinity of the existing airport and the local economy."

    Not "significant". Not "large". Not "greater than other options". Just "unacceptable". It's worth bearing in mind that replacing Heathrow with an airport elsewhere would recreate all those jobs and businesses somewhere else. This doesn't sound like this has been a cost-benefit analysis, this sounds like they've buckled to scare-mongering from the BAA lobby, and local MPs.

    Quite. They really mean 'unacceptable consequences for the Spanish owners of BAA'. Of course BAA has now been renamed 'Heathrow Airport Holdings' just to make this course of action seem even more unacceptable.
    @williamglenn - I could be wrong, but I think Ferrovial has been quietly selling down its stake in Heathrow. This is all from memory, but I believe it's share is now only 44%, with the Qatari sovereign wealth fund owning a large chunk.
    @williamglenn (again)

    Having checked the numbers, Ferrovial's stake in Heathrow is now down to 33%. The other shareholders are: Qatar Holding 20%, Britannia Airport Partners 13.29%, GIC 11.88%, Alinda 11.18%, and Stable Investment Corporation 10%. (GIC is the Government of Singapore Sovereign Wealth Fund. I don't know who Stable Investment Corporation is, but I would guess a private equity or hedge fund.)
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    I don't think Ed Miliband will look lucky if (God forbid) he actually becomes PM.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,933
    I will believe Ed Miliband is lucky as leader the day that Ed Balls falls under a bus. Until that point he has, despite his best efforts in fairness, got himself a strategic problem which, together with his own prevarication and general geekiness, is going to cost him the election.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,846
    F1: tried making a couple of notes during P2. The pre-qualifying piece will be up tomorrow, and we'll see whether this change proves useful or just a bit of extra work.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,537
    edited May 2013

    Well, if the Tories ARE going be crying in mid 2015 about how they've been robbed by UKIP, I, as a supporter of a better electoral system will have a smile so broad ....

    Wrong to gloat; mustn't gloat. But gloat I will!

    Not counting chickens though. Just dreaming!

    Just remember some of us Tories are in favour of electoral reform.

    STV by 2025, and wholly elected Upper House before that.
    I'll vote for that Mr Eagles. But 2025; that's twelve years to go. In my mid-70's so could well live to see it.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,931
    FPT, about MP accommodation.

    When the expense scandal first broke, I suggested a different solution on a blog (reproduced here with minor alterations):

    Being an MP is an unusual job; you have twin responsibilities in London and in a constituency. Add in other requirements, like stability for young families, and you get a set of dramatically conflicting requirements. It is not unique for people to be required to work in two far-flung locales, but it is unusual.

    The state buys a nice four-bedroom family home in each constituency outside London. The MP can choose to live there, in which case they pay rent, or in their own house, in which case the state rents out the unused state-owned property.

    The state also buys properties within Central London for out-of-London MPs. If an MP uses this, then they pay full market rent on it. Alternatively, they can rent a Central London flat or house on the open market. Rents will be set by price according to the local rental market on a yearly basis.

    They do not get any help with paying the rent from the state; no rebates or expenses.

    However if they rent both a constituency and a London state-owned home, then they only pay for each when they are in residence. This means that they can decamp to their constituencies for recess or constituency work at no cost; a reasonable compromise. if the family stays in the constituency home whilst the MP lives in London, they pay rent on both.

    MPs will be able to chop-and-change whether they live in the state-owned or private homes, but only if their circumstances change, e.g. marriage, divorce, children attending new school, etc. All such changes should be approved by a committee.
    Simple. ;-)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,933
    edited May 2013
    Anyone who saw this program will have been reminded that the UK response to the LIBOR scandal was an absolute disgrace and the disregard by both Ministers and regulatory authorites in this country was almost certainly wilful:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22382932

    The US repeatedly sought to get the UK authorities to take an interest in criminality of an astonishing level and the UK just did not want to know (probably because we were scared that one more thing might bring the banks toppling down). That is what Osborne was talking about and he was right. What has come out since he made his comments has vindicated his position many times over.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768

    Well, if the Tories ARE going be crying in mid 2015 about how they've been robbed by UKIP, I, as a supporter of a better electoral system will have a smile so broad ....

    Wrong to gloat; mustn't gloat. But gloat I will!

    Not counting chickens though. Just dreaming!

    Just remember some of us Tories are in favour of electoral reform.

    STV by 2025, and wholly elected Upper House before that.
    I'll vote for that Mr Eagles. But 2025; that's twelve years to go. In my mid-70's so could well live to see it.

    I would prefer a directly elected Dictator or Tyrant and a wholly elected Senate replete with Togas.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299

    FPT, about MP accommodation.

    When the expense scandal first broke, I suggested a different solution on a blog (reproduced here with minor alterations):

    Being an MP is an unusual job; you have twin responsibilities in London and in a constituency. Add in other requirements, like stability for young families, and you get a set of dramatically conflicting requirements. It is not unique for people to be required to work in two far-flung locales, but it is unusual.

    The state buys a nice four-bedroom family home in each constituency outside London. The MP can choose to live there, in which case they pay rent, or in their own house, in which case the state rents out the unused state-owned property.

    The state also buys properties within Central London for out-of-London MPs. If an MP uses this, then they pay full market rent on it. Alternatively, they can rent a Central London flat or house on the open market. Rents will be set by price according to the local rental market on a yearly basis.

    They do not get any help with paying the rent from the state; no rebates or expenses.

    However if they rent both a constituency and a London state-owned home, then they only pay for each when they are in residence. This means that they can decamp to their constituencies for recess or constituency work at no cost; a reasonable compromise. if the family stays in the constituency home whilst the MP lives in London, they pay rent on both.

    MPs will be able to chop-and-change whether they live in the state-owned or private homes, but only if their circumstances change, e.g. marriage, divorce, children attending new school, etc. All such changes should be approved by a committee.
    Simple. ;-)

    Josias: that's actually really neat. It also avoids the issue that MPs renting flats in London need to always have expensive short-term lets because of the risk of general election...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,846
    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited May 2013
    rcs1000 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.

    It's worth noting the size of the 'hole' at the Co-Op is enormous relative to its size. If the numbers I've seen are correct, it is under-capitalised by about £1bn. And given the unusual structure of the group, it's hard to see anyone - other than the government itself - stepping in to fill the hole.

    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?
    Under capitalised bank, run by committee, unable to attract talented staff. Expensive IT and integration failure. Executive unaccountable to shareholder. It's a recipe for disaster.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited May 2013
    And the good news just keeps getting better

    This time the ONS announce that the UK trade deficit narrowed in March with signs that manufacturing exports to non EU countries had made a significant contribution to the improvement.

    Another Richard will be disappointed that we haven't recovered 25 years of decline in one month but the less grumpy will note that the longest journeys begin with baby steps in the right direction.

    UK trade moved further towards positive territory in March as the pound wallowed well below its pre-crisis highs.

    The Office for National Statistics (ONS) reported that the British trade deficit contracted to £9.056bn from £9.165bn in the month before and may continue to narrow due to Sterling scraping a 20-month low in March.

    Including the UK trade surplus in services, the overall deficit decreased to £3.130bn.

    The goods trade deficit between Britain and other EU countries worsened, however, rising to £5.6bn in March from £5.0bn in February.

    This latter deterioration came as improved trade positions with Italy and Ireland were offset by increased deficits with Germany and the Netherlands, according to the ONS.

    On the up-side for manufacturers, the balance with the rest of the world – which is dominated by major emerging markets – did improve as the deficit fell from £4.2bn to £3.5bn, partly due to better exports to the US.


    A word of caution though. The trade balance figures do tend to show wide monthly variances with recent figures following a roller-coaster pattern with underlying improvement slow. Still this month remains good news and the chances of it continuing remain higher with the economic recovery now well under way.

    Enough here for Markit's Chief Economist, Chris Williamson to pronounce:

    "Official data and surveys paint an encouraging picture of the UK gaining market share in overseas markets, suggesting the economy is showing signs of rebalancing away from domestic consumption to export-led growth."

    Another Richard to take note.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768

    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.

    I want someone to have all the powers of Dictator, but with a democratic mandate.

    There's just too much fannying around with the day to day business of government.

    Take Tony Blair, won stonking majorities, but was stymied by Gordon Brown.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    DavidL said:

    Anyone who saw this program will have been reminded that the UK response to the LIBOR scandal was an absolute disgrace and the disregard by both Ministers and regulatory authorites in this country was almost certainly wilful:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22382932

    The US repeatedly sought to get the UK authorities to take an interest in criminality of an astonishing level and the UK just did not want to know (probably because we were scared that one more thing might bring the banks toppling down). That is what Osborne was talking about and he was right. What has come out since he made his comments has vindicated his position many times over.

    It's another of the corruptions caused by too big to fail banks - they become above the law.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.

    I want someone to have all the powers of Dictator, but with a democratic mandate.

    There's just too much fannying around with the day to day business of government.

    Take Tony Blair, won stonking majorities, but was stymied by Gordon Brown.

    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.

    I want someone to have all the powers of Dictator, but with a democratic mandate.

    There's just too much fannying around with the day to day business of government.

    Take Tony Blair, won stonking majorities, but was stymied by Gordon Brown.
    This is basically the system they have in France, and that's not exactly a shining example of a well-governed country.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    @Josias,

    I have some very interesting notes on the UK electricity market from Redholm Informatics which I'm happy to share with you if you're interested. Drop me an email at my username at gmail.com

    Cheers, Robert
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,933
    rcs1000 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.

    It's worth noting the size of the 'hole' at the Co-Op is enormous relative to its size. If the numbers I've seen are correct, it is under-capitalised by about £1bn. And given the unusual structure of the group, it's hard to see anyone - other than the government itself - stepping in to fill the hole.

    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?
    I am sure it is just me but was it not only last month that this bank with a £1bn hole on its balance sheet was trying to buy 631 branches from Lloyds?

    Did the banking fraternity, even the lefty bit, really learn nothing from Ambro?
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    rcs1000 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.

    It's worth noting the size of the 'hole' at the Co-Op is enormous relative to its size. If the numbers I've seen are correct, it is under-capitalised by about £1bn. And given the unusual structure of the group, it's hard to see anyone - other than the government itself - stepping in to fill the hole.

    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?
    Under capitalised bank, run by committee, unable to attract talented staff. Expensive IT and integration failure. Executive unaccountable to shareholder. It's a recipe for disaster.
    Founded 1872
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    Socrates said:

    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.

    I want someone to have all the powers of Dictator, but with a democratic mandate.

    There's just too much fannying around with the day to day business of government.

    Take Tony Blair, won stonking majorities, but was stymied by Gordon Brown.

    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.

    I want someone to have all the powers of Dictator, but with a democratic mandate.

    There's just too much fannying around with the day to day business of government.

    Take Tony Blair, won stonking majorities, but was stymied by Gordon Brown.
    This is basically the system they have in France, and that's not exactly a shining example of a well-governed country.
    Err no, they have things like "co-habitation government" re the President and Prime Minister.

    Too much fannying around.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,931
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT, about MP accommodation.

    When the expense scandal first broke, I suggested a different solution on a blog (reproduced here with minor alterations):

    Being an MP is an unusual job; you have twin responsibilities in London and in a constituency. Add in other requirements, like stability for young families, and you get a set of dramatically conflicting requirements. It is not unique for people to be required to work in two far-flung locales, but it is unusual.

    The state buys a nice four-bedroom family home in each constituency outside London. The MP can choose to live there, in which case they pay rent, or in their own house, in which case the state rents out the unused state-owned property.

    The state also buys properties within Central London for out-of-London MPs. If an MP uses this, then they pay full market rent on it. Alternatively, they can rent a Central London flat or house on the open market. Rents will be set by price according to the local rental market on a yearly basis.

    They do not get any help with paying the rent from the state; no rebates or expenses.

    However if they rent both a constituency and a London state-owned home, then they only pay for each when they are in residence. This means that they can decamp to their constituencies for recess or constituency work at no cost; a reasonable compromise. if the family stays in the constituency home whilst the MP lives in London, they pay rent on both.

    MPs will be able to chop-and-change whether they live in the state-owned or private homes, but only if their circumstances change, e.g. marriage, divorce, children attending new school, etc. All such changes should be approved by a committee.
    Simple. ;-)

    Josias: that's actually really neat. It also avoids the issue that MPs renting flats in London need to always have expensive short-term lets because of the risk of general election...
    Thank you. It strikes me as a good (although possibly not the best) solution to a complex, multi-tiered problem.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.

    I want someone to have all the powers of Dictator, but with a democratic mandate.

    There's just too much fannying around with the day to day business of government.

    Take Tony Blair, won stonking majorities, but was stymied by Gordon Brown.

    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.

    I want someone to have all the powers of Dictator, but with a democratic mandate.

    There's just too much fannying around with the day to day business of government.

    Take Tony Blair, won stonking majorities, but was stymied by Gordon Brown.
    This is basically the system they have in France, and that's not exactly a shining example of a well-governed country.
    Err no, they have things like "co-habitation government" re the President and Prime Minister.

    Too much fannying around.
    They changed the system in 2000, so the parliamentary system is shortly after the presidential results are known, so its always elected during the presidential honeymoon period. This was deliberately done to avoid cohabitation and it's been successful so far.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,933
    AveryLP said:

    And the good news just keeps getting better

    This time the ONS announce that the UK trade deficit narrowed in March with significant signs that manufacturing exports to non EU countries had made a significant contribution to the improvement.

    Another Richard will be disappointed that we haven't recovered 25 years of decline in one month but the less grumpy will note that the longest journeys begin with baby steps in the right direction.

    UK trade moved further towards positive territory in March as the pound wallowed well below its pre-crisis highs.

    The Office for National Statistics (ONS) reported that the British trade deficit contracted to £9.056bn from £9.165bn in the month before and may continue to narrow due to Sterling scraping a 20-month low in March.

    Including the UK trade surplus in services, the overall deficit decreased to £3.130bn.

    The goods trade deficit between Britain and other EU countries worsened, however, rising to £5.6bn in March from £5.0bn in February.

    This latter deterioration came as improved trade positions with Italy and Ireland were offset by increased deficits with Germany and the Netherlands, according to the ONS.

    On the up-side for manufacturers, the balance with the rest of the world – which is dominated by major emerging markets – did improve as the deficit fell from £4.2bn to £3.5bn, partly due to better exports to the US.


    A word of caution though. The trade balance figures do tend to show wide monthly variances with recent figures following a roller-coaster pattern with underlying improvement slow. Still this month remains good news and the chances of it continuing remain higher with the economic recovery now well under way.

    Still, enough here for Markit's Chief Economist, Chris Williamson to pronounce:

    "Official data and surveys paint an encouraging picture of the UK gaining market share in overseas markets, suggesting the economy is showing signs of rebalancing away from domestic consumption to export-led growth."

    Another Richard to take note.

    Did you see my post on the previous thread about interest rates? I suspect that by the end of this year base rates will be starting to move up. Whilst that is a good sign for the economy as a whole the main reason that falling real wages over the last 5 years have not caused much greater pain (and reductions in consumption) is the massive boost homeowners got from low mortgage payments.

    If interest rates go up the upward pressure on wages will become severe and the government will have a lot of unhappy voters. There are no unmixed blessings in economics!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.

    I want someone to have all the powers of Dictator, but with a democratic mandate.

    There's just too much fannying around with the day to day business of government.

    Take Tony Blair, won stonking majorities, but was stymied by Gordon Brown.

    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.

    I want someone to have all the powers of Dictator, but with a democratic mandate.

    There's just too much fannying around with the day to day business of government.

    Take Tony Blair, won stonking majorities, but was stymied by Gordon Brown.
    This is basically the system they have in France, and that's not exactly a shining example of a well-governed country.
    Err no, they have things like "co-habitation government" re the President and Prime Minister.

    Too much fannying around.
    They changed the system in 2000, so the parliamentary system is shortly after the presidential results are known, so its always elected during the presidential honeymoon period. This was deliberately done to avoid cohabitation and it's been successful so far.
    It's French, it must be Ipso Facto, crap
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited May 2013
    rcs1000 said:




    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?

    No need to - split off the good bit with depositors covered. Then zombie the bad bank - and set aggressive debt collectors on those with overdrafts over say £3M.

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    MrJones said:

    rcs1000 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.

    It's worth noting the size of the 'hole' at the Co-Op is enormous relative to its size. If the numbers I've seen are correct, it is under-capitalised by about £1bn. And given the unusual structure of the group, it's hard to see anyone - other than the government itself - stepping in to fill the hole.

    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?
    Under capitalised bank, run by committee, unable to attract talented staff. Expensive IT and integration failure. Executive unaccountable to shareholder. It's a recipe for disaster.
    Founded 1872
    The relevance being?

    Barclays 1690, National and Provincial (NatWest) 1833, HSBC 1865 etc

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    tim said:

    @RichardNabavi

    " Precisely: FPTP forces parties to build a broad consensus on a pre-agreed manifesto."

    Remind me where the proposal to reorganise the NHS featured in the Tory manifesto.

    Or putting up VAT. Not only did all the parties doubtless have secret plans to do it, they slagged each other off in the campaign for having secret plans to do it...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,933

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.

    I want someone to have all the powers of Dictator, but with a democratic mandate.

    There's just too much fannying around with the day to day business of government.

    Take Tony Blair, won stonking majorities, but was stymied by Gordon Brown.

    Mr. Eagles, an elected dictator is a contradiction in terms, the kind of silliness that only a man who considers Caesar superior to Hannibal could possibly utter.

    I want someone to have all the powers of Dictator, but with a democratic mandate.

    There's just too much fannying around with the day to day business of government.

    Take Tony Blair, won stonking majorities, but was stymied by Gordon Brown.
    This is basically the system they have in France, and that's not exactly a shining example of a well-governed country.
    Err no, they have things like "co-habitation government" re the President and Prime Minister.

    Too much fannying around.
    They changed the system in 2000, so the parliamentary system is shortly after the presidential results are known, so its always elected during the presidential honeymoon period. This was deliberately done to avoid cohabitation and it's been successful so far.
    It's French, it must be Ipso Facto, crap
    Res ipsa loquitur, as a reasonably competent general might once have said.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100216125/send-for-boris-britains-ronald-reagan/

    "Another day, another deranged report on the future of Heathrow. This time it is the Transport Select Committee suggesting that London's main airport be extended to four (four!) runways, doubling the airport's size and blighting the lives of millions of people who live in West London.

    Forget the various horse racing scandals. We must ask: were the members of the select committee doped? Or is it just that they wrote their report without looking at a map?
    It is – once again from the current political class – the sheer lack of ambition and vision that it is so depressing.

    Extending Heathrow rather than looking for a proper long-term solution is simply corporatist defeatism. As though all the airline industry has to do is launch another of its interminable public affairs campaigns and the country will roll over."
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The base advantages and disadvantages of AV vs FPTP for the Conservatives are still not clearcut.

    The real blunder by the Tories was scuppering their own boundary reforms.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    TGOHF said:

    rcs1000 said:




    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?

    No need to - split off the good bit with depositors covered. Then zombie the bad bank - and set aggressive debt collectors on those with overdrafts over say £3M.

    That's not how banking works.

    A bank has liabilities (the money it owes you, a depositor), and assets (i.e. the money it is owed by its creditors - or to put it another way, people to whom it has lent to).

    So, simplified, the Co-Op would have a balance sheet that looked like this:

    Loans to customers £100

    balanced by

    Deposits (i.e. loans *from* customers) £90
    Shareholders' equity (i.e. buffer) £10

    Now, if 10% of customers fail to repay their loans, then the bank makes a loss of £10, and shareholders are wiped out (their equity or the buffer is wiped out), but the depositors are still safe.

    If, on the other hand, 20% of customers fail to repay their loans, then the bank has assets of £80, and liabilities of £90.

    Splitting a bank into a good bank / bad bank only works if there are enough 'good' loans to cover the liabilties (i.e. customer depositors).
  • Gerry_ManderGerry_Mander Posts: 621
    DavidL said:



    Did you see my post on the previous thread about interest rates? I suspect that by the end of this year base rates will be starting to move up. Whilst that is a good sign for the economy as a whole the main reason that falling real wages over the last 5 years have not caused much greater pain (and reductions in consumption) is the massive boost homeowners got from low mortgage payments.

    If interest rates go up the upward pressure on wages will become severe and the government will have a lot of unhappy voters. There are no unmixed blessings in economics!

    Depends. We has to sell our house during the recession. Things are improving now, and we could buy again, but not at current prices. We will get a boost either from interest on savings, or falling house prices, or both. Bet we're not the only ones, either.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    Ooops, I suspect this one is going to run and run

    A halal lamb burger made by a company supplying Leicester schools contained up to 50% pork, the city council has confirmed.

    The products were made by Doncaster-based Paragon Quality Foods Limited, which said it had never knowingly bought or handled pork.

    The discovery was made on 18 April and the product was withdrawn but details only became public on Thursday.

    A DNA test found the burger contained between 10 and 50% pork.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-22479712
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    rcs1000 said:

    TGOHF said:

    rcs1000 said:




    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?

    No need to - split off the good bit with depositors covered. Then zombie the bad bank - and set aggressive debt collectors on those with overdrafts over say £3M.

    That's not how banking works.

    A bank has liabilities (the money it owes you, a depositor), and assets (i.e. the money it is owed by its creditors - or to put it another way, people to whom it has lent to).

    So, simplified, the Co-Op would have a balance sheet that looked like this:

    Loans to customers £100

    balanced by

    Deposits (i.e. loans *from* customers) £90
    Shareholders' equity (i.e. buffer) £10

    Now, if 10% of customers fail to repay their loans, then the bank makes a loss of £10, and shareholders are wiped out (their equity or the buffer is wiped out), but the depositors are still safe.

    If, on the other hand, 20% of customers fail to repay their loans, then the bank has assets of £80, and liabilities of £90.

    Splitting a bank into a good bank / bad bank only works if there are enough 'good' loans to cover the liabilties (i.e. customer depositors).
    NRK got a lot more back than it expected to. Plus you have to factor in the govt taking all of the assets for 0p and a fee for the good bit when sold to Virgin Money.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    antifrank said:

    The base advantages and disadvantages of AV vs FPTP for the Conservatives are still not clearcut.

    The real blunder by the Tories was scuppering their own boundary reforms. trusting Lib Dems

    Fixed it for you
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    TGOHF said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TGOHF said:

    rcs1000 said:




    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?

    No need to - split off the good bit with depositors covered. Then zombie the bad bank - and set aggressive debt collectors on those with overdrafts over say £3M.

    That's not how banking works.

    A bank has liabilities (the money it owes you, a depositor), and assets (i.e. the money it is owed by its creditors - or to put it another way, people to whom it has lent to).

    So, simplified, the Co-Op would have a balance sheet that looked like this:

    Loans to customers £100

    balanced by

    Deposits (i.e. loans *from* customers) £90
    Shareholders' equity (i.e. buffer) £10

    Now, if 10% of customers fail to repay their loans, then the bank makes a loss of £10, and shareholders are wiped out (their equity or the buffer is wiped out), but the depositors are still safe.

    If, on the other hand, 20% of customers fail to repay their loans, then the bank has assets of £80, and liabilities of £90.

    Splitting a bank into a good bank / bad bank only works if there are enough 'good' loans to cover the liabilties (i.e. customer depositors).
    NRK got a lot more back than it expected to. Plus you have to factor in the govt taking all of the assets for 0p and a fee for the good bit when sold to Virgin Money.

    But your idea is that there is a 'good bank' with all the deposits in it. Where do you propose to find the assets to back these? If there are insufficient assets, then the government will have to make an injection.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited May 2013
    rcs,

    As I understand it, you set "good loans" against deposits (taxpayer guaranteed), and by bringing over the "bad loans" (i.e. risky, not necessarily in default) to a new balance sheet you allow investors to look at that portfolio for what it is, a high-risk/reward one with no taxpayer guarantee.

    Edit: I think leveraging is your answer, that is to say, banks lent out far more than they ever held in deposits. Thus you can achieve the split that way.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    antifrank said:

    The base advantages and disadvantages of AV vs FPTP for the Conservatives are still not clearcut.

    The real blunder by the Tories was scuppering their own boundary reforms.

    Perhaps we need more threads on AV to work out the advantages/disadvantages of AV.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    rcs1000 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.

    It's worth noting the size of the 'hole' at the Co-Op is enormous relative to its size. If the numbers I've seen are correct, it is under-capitalised by about £1bn. And given the unusual structure of the group, it's hard to see anyone - other than the government itself - stepping in to fill the hole.

    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?
    Hubris again. Why didn't they just leave Britannia building society alone, and concentrate on growing steadily?

    If the ego-driven people could go back to trying to get one over each other by building fantastical machines again, rather than by gee-whizz mergers, we might stop having so many of these problems.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Perhaps we need more threads on AV to work out the advantages/disadvantages of AV.

    Can we have a thread on whether JJ Abrams first Star Wars movie is going to be more of a clunker than the latest Star Trek?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,933

    DavidL said:



    Did you see my post on the previous thread about interest rates? I suspect that by the end of this year base rates will be starting to move up. Whilst that is a good sign for the economy as a whole the main reason that falling real wages over the last 5 years have not caused much greater pain (and reductions in consumption) is the massive boost homeowners got from low mortgage payments.

    If interest rates go up the upward pressure on wages will become severe and the government will have a lot of unhappy voters. There are no unmixed blessings in economics!

    Depends. We has to sell our house during the recession. Things are improving now, and we could buy again, but not at current prices. We will get a boost either from interest on savings, or falling house prices, or both. Bet we're not the only ones, either.
    Gerry, there is no dispute that the policy of all governments in the west since 2008 has been to screw savers to the wall to help protect reckless bankers and their even more reckless clients. Those that have savings will see some increase in income from interest rates and will be able to spend a little more but this will not offset the majority who have mortgages and may see their monthly payments double by the end of next year.

    As I say, the only way this can not cause a reduction in consumption in the UK would be if wages start to increase in real terms again by enough to set off the difference.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    Grandiose said:

    rcs,

    As I understand it, you set "good loans" against deposits (taxpayer guaranteed), and by bringing over the "bad loans" (i.e. risky, not necessarily in default) to a new balance sheet you allow investors to look at that portfolio for what it is, a high-risk/reward one with no taxpayer guarantee.

    The point I'm making is that a good bank / bad bank split still requires sufficient assets to cover deposits. The Co-Op lost £750m or so last year. I don't know the exact numbers, but a £1bn hole cannot simply be papered over by splitting the bank up. Traditionally (Japan, the US), the government still recapitalises the 'good bank' (which contains the deposits and the good loans).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    Scott_P said:

    Perhaps we need more threads on AV to work out the advantages/disadvantages of AV.

    Can we have a thread on whether JJ Abrams first Star Wars movie is going to be more of a clunker than the latest Star Trek?
    Please.

    The latest Star Trek film is awesome, and I've seen it four times already.

    And by this evening, it will be six times.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,438

    antifrank said:

    The base advantages and disadvantages of AV vs FPTP for the Conservatives are still not clearcut.

    The real blunder by the Tories was scuppering their own boundary reforms.

    Perhaps we need more threads on AV to work out the advantages/disadvantages of AV.
    Mr Eagles I said you should have run that Nick Clegg ubersurvivor thread last month

    Now a certain Dan Hodges has beaten you to the post

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100216130/nick-cleggs-coffin-lid-is-creaking-are-we-witnessing-the-resurrection-of-the-lib-dems/

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    TGOHF said:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100216125/send-for-boris-britains-ronald-reagan/

    "Another day, another deranged report on the future of Heathrow. This time it is the Transport Select Committee suggesting that London's main airport be extended to four (four!) runways, doubling the airport's size and blighting the lives of millions of people who live in West London.

    Forget the various horse racing scandals. We must ask: were the members of the select committee doped? Or is it just that they wrote their report without looking at a map?
    It is – once again from the current political class – the sheer lack of ambition and vision that it is so depressing.

    Extending Heathrow rather than looking for a proper long-term solution is simply corporatist defeatism. As though all the airline industry has to do is launch another of its interminable public affairs campaigns and the country will roll over."

    Would be interesting to see how 10! terminals at Heathrow would work, if they doubled the size of it....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The latest Star Trek film is awesome

    In the same way that Ed Miliband is awesome

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    edited May 2013
    Scott_P said:

    The latest Star Trek film is awesome

    In the same way that Ed Miliband is awesome

    Wash your mouth out.

    Ed Miliband is the Star V: The Final Frontier of politics.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    Did you see my post on the previous thread about interest rates? I suspect that by the end of this year base rates will be starting to move up. Whilst that is a good sign for the economy as a whole the main reason that falling real wages over the last 5 years have not caused much greater pain (and reductions in consumption) is the massive boost homeowners got from low mortgage payments.

    If interest rates go up the upward pressure on wages will become severe and the government will have a lot of unhappy voters. There are no unmixed blessings in economics!

    Depends. We has to sell our house during the recession. Things are improving now, and we could buy again, but not at current prices. We will get a boost either from interest on savings, or falling house prices, or both. Bet we're not the only ones, either.
    Gerry, there is no dispute that the policy of all governments in the west since 2008 has been to screw savers to the wall to help protect reckless bankers and their even more reckless clients. Those that have savings will see some increase in income from interest rates and will be able to spend a little more but this will not offset the majority who have mortgages and may see their monthly payments double by the end of next year.

    As I say, the only way this can not cause a reduction in consumption in the UK would be if wages start to increase in real terms again by enough to set off the difference.

    DavidL:

    The way a bank works is this. When you put money in a bank, you become a creditor of the bank. The bank then takes the money you lent it, and lends it again to someone else. The money it is owed (loans) are its assets, and the money it owes (to you) is its liabilities.

    Essentially, you - when you put money in the Royal Bank of Scotland - lent money to the Candy Brothers, who bet on the Middlesex Hospital in Fitzrovia becoming a great success.

    If the Candy Brothers and their ilk cannot repay the money, then the bank is bust. And they cannot repay you. It's not a question of rescuing bankers, it's a question of rescuing depositors. It was you, the person who put money in the bank, who was being rescued, not the bankers.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    edited May 2013

    antifrank said:

    The base advantages and disadvantages of AV vs FPTP for the Conservatives are still not clearcut.

    The real blunder by the Tories was scuppering their own boundary reforms.

    Perhaps we need more threads on AV to work out the advantages/disadvantages of AV.
    Mr Eagles I said you should have run that Nick Clegg ubersurvivor thread last month

    Now a certain Dan Hodges has beaten you to the post

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100216130/nick-cleggs-coffin-lid-is-creaking-are-we-witnessing-the-resurrection-of-the-lib-dems/

    I saw that, I will run my Nick Clegg the cockroach of British Politics piece later on this month.

    Edit: Before Mark Senior gets upset, the term cockroach is meant as a compliment.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.

    It's worth noting the size of the 'hole' at the Co-Op is enormous relative to its size. If the numbers I've seen are correct, it is under-capitalised by about £1bn. And given the unusual structure of the group, it's hard to see anyone - other than the government itself - stepping in to fill the hole.

    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?
    They are not essential to the economy. They should be sold (and I understand Co-op is trying) or, failing that, closed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,933
    edited May 2013
    I appreciate that rcs1000 is seeking to simplify things very considerably but is a better model for banking not that they borrow £100bn for 3% and then lend it at 5% thereby making £20bn a year profit, less operating costs.

    The problem of bad debts is that they are a part of the operating cost so if they are higher than allowed for profitability disappears.

    This is where the shareholders are supposed to provide the buffer. And it appears in the case of the Co op they can't.

    Still don't quite see where buying 621 branches was supposed to help with that lack of a buffer.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @Scott_P The Tories screwed it up all by themselves by not understanding the basics of coalitions. Part of the problem was the coalition within the Conservative party, never mind that with the Lib Dems. They deserve, and will get, zero sympathy from the general public for their incompetence on this front.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    rcs,

    Isn't the bigger problem that recapitalisation seeks to address a loss of confidence in lenders to the bank? Like a bank run (or the big name lender version)? Thus a taxpayer guarantee is part of that.

    I put some question marks in there but I think it fits together.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    @TGOHF I was most struck by this comment from the transport committee:

    "The viability of an estuary hub airport would also require the closure of Heathrow – a course of action that would have unacceptable consequences for individuals, businesses in the vicinity of the existing airport and the local economy."

    Not "significant". Not "large". Not "greater than other options". Just "unacceptable". It's worth bearing in mind that replacing Heathrow with an airport elsewhere would recreate all those jobs and businesses somewhere else. This doesn't sound like this has been a cost-benefit analysis, this sounds like they've buckled to scare-mongering from the BAA lobby, and local MPs.

    Quite. They really mean 'unacceptable consequences for the Spanish owners of BAA'. Of course BAA has now been renamed 'Heathrow Airport Holdings' just to make this course of action seem even more unacceptable.
    @williamglenn - I could be wrong, but I think Ferrovial has been quietly selling down its stake in Heathrow. This is all from memory, but I believe it's share is now only 44%, with the Qatari sovereign wealth fund owning a large chunk.
    @williamglenn (again)

    Having checked the numbers, Ferrovial's stake in Heathrow is now down to 33%. The other shareholders are: Qatar Holding 20%, Britannia Airport Partners 13.29%, GIC 11.88%, Alinda 11.18%, and Stable Investment Corporation 10%. (GIC is the Government of Singapore Sovereign Wealth Fund. I don't know who Stable Investment Corporation is, but I would guess a private equity or hedge fund.)
    With a name like that ("Stable Investment Corporation") it just has to be the Chinese ;-)

    IIRC, Britannia is the Quebecois government fund
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @SamCoatesTimes: So will the Co-operative use capital currently used for donations to Labour's sister party, the Co-Operative Party, to shore up the bank?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,438
    It seems half the nation has been making up anecdotes about poor treatment in the NHS.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/10048475/Half-of-families-suffer-in-hospital.html

    real life experience versus NHS statistics, who to believe ?
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    rcs1000 said:

    It was you, the person who put money in the bank, who was being rescued, not the bankers.

    Yes, it is absolutely staggering, and very worrying, that the vast majority of the population don't seem to understand this.

    We've even had people here argue, apparently in all seriousness, that Brown should have let RBS and Lloyds go bust. That would have wiped out some enormous proportion - I'd guess up to half - of all the businesses in the UK.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    DavidL said:

    I appreciate that rcs1000 is seeking to simplify things very considerably but is a better model for banking not that the borrow £100bn for 3% and then lend it at 5% thereby making £20bn a year profit, less operating costs.

    The problem of bad debts is that they are a part of the operating cost so if they are higher than allowed for profitability disappears.

    This is where the shareholders are supposed to provide the buffer. And it appears in the case of the Co op they can't.

    Still don't quite see where buying 621 branches was supposed to help with that lack of a buffer.

    DavidL: spot on.

    By the way, the Co-Op's cunning plan was to buy the 621 branches by borrowing money from the government at low interest rates. The hope would be that they would make enough money operating these branches over the next few years that the hole would be filled by cash flow. Unfortunately (or fortunately for us taxpayers), Danny Alexander refused to sign off on it.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    DavidL said:

    AveryLP said:

    And the good news just keeps getting better

    This time the ONS announce that the UK trade deficit narrowed in March with significant signs that manufacturing exports to non EU countries had made a significant contribution to the improvement.

    Another Richard will be disappointed that we haven't recovered 25 years of decline in one month but the less grumpy will note that the longest journeys begin with baby steps in the right direction.

    UK trade moved further towards positive territory in March as the pound wallowed well below its pre-crisis highs.

    The Office for National Statistics (ONS) reported that the British trade deficit contracted to £9.056bn from £9.165bn in the month before and may continue to narrow due to Sterling scraping a 20-month low in March.

    Including the UK trade surplus in services, the overall deficit decreased to £3.130bn.

    The goods trade deficit between Britain and other EU countries worsened, however, rising to £5.6bn in March from £5.0bn in February.

    This latter deterioration came as improved trade positions with Italy and Ireland were offset by increased deficits with Germany and the Netherlands, according to the ONS.

    On the up-side for manufacturers, the balance with the rest of the world – which is dominated by major emerging markets – did improve as the deficit fell from £4.2bn to £3.5bn, partly due to better exports to the US.


    A word of caution though. The trade balance figures do tend to show wide monthly variances with recent figures following a roller-coaster pattern with underlying improvement slow. Still this month remains good news and the chances of it continuing remain higher with the economic recovery now well under way.

    Still, enough here for Markit's Chief Economist, Chris Williamson to pronounce:

    "Official data and surveys paint an encouraging picture of the UK gaining market share in overseas markets, suggesting the economy is showing signs of rebalancing away from domestic consumption to export-led growth."

    Another Richard to take note.

    Did you see my post on the previous thread about interest rates? I suspect that by the end of this year base rates will be starting to move up. Whilst that is a good sign for the economy as a whole the main reason that falling real wages over the last 5 years have not caused much greater pain (and reductions in consumption) is the massive boost homeowners got from low mortgage payments.

    If interest rates go up the upward pressure on wages will become severe and the government will have a lot of unhappy voters. There are no unmixed blessings in economics!
    There can be no danger from inflation when real wages are still declining. If real wages start to grow again, then the effect of an increase in interest rates will not be so harsh.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited May 2013
    DavidL said:

    AveryLP said:

    And the good news just keeps getting better

    This time the ONS announce that the UK trade deficit narrowed in March with significant signs that manufacturing exports to non EU countries had made a significant contribution to the improvement.

    Another Richard will be disappointed that we haven't recovered 25 years of decline in one month but the less grumpy will note that the longest journeys begin with baby steps in the right direction.

    UK trade moved further towards positive territory in March as the pound wallowed well below its pre-crisis highs.

    The Office for National Statistics (ONS) reported that the British trade deficit contracted to £9.056bn from £9.165bn in the month before and may continue to narrow due to Sterling scraping a 20-month low in March.

    Including the UK trade surplus in services, the overall deficit decreased to £3.130bn.

    The goods trade deficit between Britain and other EU countries worsened, however, rising to £5.6bn in March from £5.0bn in February.

    This latter deterioration came as improved trade positions with Italy and Ireland were offset by increased deficits with Germany and the Netherlands, according to the ONS.

    On the up-side for manufacturers, the balance with the rest of the world – which is dominated by major emerging markets – did improve as the deficit fell from £4.2bn to £3.5bn, partly due to better exports to the US.


    A word of caution though. The trade balance figures do tend to show wide monthly variances with recent figures following a roller-coaster pattern with underlying improvement slow. Still this month remains good news and the chances of it continuing remain higher with the economic recovery now well under way.

    Still, enough here for Markit's Chief Economist, Chris Williamson to pronounce:

    "Official data and surveys paint an encouraging picture of the UK gaining market share in overseas markets, suggesting the economy is showing signs of rebalancing away from domestic consumption to export-led growth."

    Another Richard to take note.

    Did you see my post on the previous thread about interest rates? I suspect that by the end of this year base rates will be starting to move up. Whilst that is a good sign for the economy as a whole the main reason that falling real wages over the last 5 years have not caused much greater pain (and reductions in consumption) is the massive boost homeowners got from low mortgage payments.

    If interest rates go up the upward pressure on wages will become severe and the government will have a lot of unhappy voters. There are no unmixed blessings in economics!
    I did see your post, David, and it reminded me of Frau Merkel's comments to a banking conference in Berlin a couple of weeks ago:

    "The ECB is obviously in a difficult position. For Germany it would actually have to raise rates slightly at the moment, but for other countries it would have to do even more for more liquidity to be made available and especially for liquidity to reach corporate financing."

    The same pressures will also apply here in the UK if the current pace of growth persists.

    A lot though depends on inflation.

    Even though headline inflation is higher in the UK than in Germany and the rest of the EU (2.7% vs 1.2%), which would indicate that upward pressure on rates should be higher here, this argument is not clear cut. The UK figure carries the effect of recent fiscal and administrative pricing changes and hides an underlying rate estimated to be around 1.8% [Goldman Sachs]. So with little pressure on inflation from wage settlements, the BoE should be able to hold interest rates low in the short to medium term. Economists are even revising down the BoE forecast that inflation will peak at over 3 percent later this year.

    In addition, Osborne has loosened the BoE MPC mandate to allow it to pursue broader targets of growth and employment rather than just inflation which may allow increases in interest rates to be delayed even longer than would previously have been the case.

    Osborne will no doubt be hoping that the BoE keeps interest rates low at least until standards of living start to both improve and be felt by the public to be improving. My guess is that his ideal time for a significant rate rise might be around June 2015!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    MrJones said:

    rcs1000 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.

    It's worth noting the size of the 'hole' at the Co-Op is enormous relative to its size. If the numbers I've seen are correct, it is under-capitalised by about £1bn. And given the unusual structure of the group, it's hard to see anyone - other than the government itself - stepping in to fill the hole.

    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?
    Under capitalised bank, run by committee, unable to attract talented staff. Expensive IT and integration failure. Executive unaccountable to shareholder. It's a recipe for disaster.
    Founded 1872
    The relevance being?

    Barclays 1690, National and Provincial (NatWest) 1833, HSBC 1865 etc

    Mere babies ;-)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    @TGOHF I was most struck by this comment from the transport committee:

    "The viability of an estuary hub airport would also require the closure of Heathrow – a course of action that would have unacceptable consequences for individuals, businesses in the vicinity of the existing airport and the local economy."

    Not "significant". Not "large". Not "greater than other options". Just "unacceptable". It's worth bearing in mind that replacing Heathrow with an airport elsewhere would recreate all those jobs and businesses somewhere else. This doesn't sound like this has been a cost-benefit analysis, this sounds like they've buckled to scare-mongering from the BAA lobby, and local MPs.

    Quite. They really mean 'unacceptable consequences for the Spanish owners of BAA'. Of course BAA has now been renamed 'Heathrow Airport Holdings' just to make this course of action seem even more unacceptable.
    @williamglenn - I could be wrong, but I think Ferrovial has been quietly selling down its stake in Heathrow. This is all from memory, but I believe it's share is now only 44%, with the Qatari sovereign wealth fund owning a large chunk.
    @williamglenn (again)

    Having checked the numbers, Ferrovial's stake in Heathrow is now down to 33%. The other shareholders are: Qatar Holding 20%, Britannia Airport Partners 13.29%, GIC 11.88%, Alinda 11.18%, and Stable Investment Corporation 10%. (GIC is the Government of Singapore Sovereign Wealth Fund. I don't know who Stable Investment Corporation is, but I would guess a private equity or hedge fund.)
    With a name like that ("Stable Investment Corporation") it just has to be the Chinese ;-)

    IIRC, Britannia is the Quebecois government fund
    Good spot: it is indeed the Chinese sovereign wealth fund. So, it's the Canadians, the Chinese, the Qataris, and the Singaporeans who own Heathrow now...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,933
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    Did you see my post on the previous thread about interest rates? I suspect that by the end of this year base rates will be starting to move up. Whilst that is a good sign for the economy as a whole the main reason that falling real wages over the last 5 years have not caused much greater pain (and reductions in consumption) is the massive boost homeowners got from low mortgage payments.

    If interest rates go up the upward pressure on wages will become severe and the government will have a lot of unhappy voters. There are no unmixed blessings in economics!

    Depends. We has to sell our house during the recession. Things are improving now, and we could buy again, but not at current prices. We will get a boost either from interest on savings, or falling house prices, or both. Bet we're not the only ones, either.
    Gerry, there is no dispute that the policy of all governments in the west since 2008 has been to screw savers to the wall to help protect reckless bankers and their even more reckless clients. Those that have savings will see some increase in income from interest rates and will be able to spend a little more but this will not offset the majority who have mortgages and may see their monthly payments double by the end of next year.

    As I say, the only way this can not cause a reduction in consumption in the UK would be if wages start to increase in real terms again by enough to set off the difference.

    DavidL:

    The way a bank works is this. When you put money in a bank, you become a creditor of the bank. The bank then takes the money you lent it, and lends it again to someone else. The money it is owed (loans) are its assets, and the money it owes (to you) is its liabilities.

    Essentially, you - when you put money in the Royal Bank of Scotland - lent money to the Candy Brothers, who bet on the Middlesex Hospital in Fitzrovia becoming a great success.

    If the Candy Brothers and their ilk cannot repay the money, then the bank is bust. And they cannot repay you. It's not a question of rescuing bankers, it's a question of rescuing depositors. It was you, the person who put money in the bank, who was being rescued, not the bankers.
    Really? So it was just lucky that they kept their jobs, their pensions, even their bonuses in many cases, was it?

    The way our banks were saved protected the vested interests of the staff, the shareholders and the depositers in that order. Had we had legislation in place (AND WE STILL DON'T FOR PITY'S SAKE) that protected the depositers ahead of the other interests they could in theory have gone hang. Like that was ever going to happen.

    Too big to fail, too big to jail, too big for their own boots. The conduct of our bankers makes a rightwinger like me even more angry than the performance of Gordon Brown.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    DavidL said:



    This is where the shareholders are supposed to provide the buffer. And it appears in the case of the Co op they can't.

    One shareholder, the member-owned Co-operative Group. Looking at their accounts, it's a hole they'll never fill.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    I don't expect rates to go up much, but I think there are two distinct options for the Bank.

    One is to raise interests significantly, to suppress inflation (and lower long-term expectations for inflation), which I don't think will happen since the economy seems to fragile, including consumer spending;

    The other is to indicate that the UK is on the mend by raising interest rates slightly, perhaps to 1%. The effect on inflation expectations might be enough to cancel out the pain to borrowers, whilst giving a positive signal about growth. Of course, this plan backfires if the economy turns downward again. If there is any movement on interest rates - and late this year is I think the earliest - then I think it will be more like this.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    I appreciate that rcs1000 is seeking to simplify things very considerably but is a better model for banking not that the borrow £100bn for 3% and then lend it at 5% thereby making £20bn a year profit, less operating costs.

    The problem of bad debts is that they are a part of the operating cost so if they are higher than allowed for profitability disappears.

    This is where the shareholders are supposed to provide the buffer. And it appears in the case of the Co op they can't.

    Still don't quite see where buying 621 branches was supposed to help with that lack of a buffer.

    Because the big 5 have been working hard to increase sector wide regulatary costs as they believe it entrenches their oligopoly by making it hard for new entrants.

    Coop was stuck in the middle ground - the theory was increasing the scale allows them to amortise the regulatory burden over a greater income base
  • AlasdairAlasdair Posts: 72

    TGOHF said:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100216125/send-for-boris-britains-ronald-reagan/

    "Another day, another deranged report on the future of Heathrow. This time it is the Transport Select Committee suggesting that London's main airport be extended to four (four!) runways, doubling the airport's size and blighting the lives of millions of people who live in West London.

    Forget the various horse racing scandals. We must ask: were the members of the select committee doped? Or is it just that they wrote their report without looking at a map?
    It is – once again from the current political class – the sheer lack of ambition and vision that it is so depressing.

    Extending Heathrow rather than looking for a proper long-term solution is simply corporatist defeatism. As though all the airline industry has to do is launch another of its interminable public affairs campaigns and the country will roll over."

    Would be interesting to see how 10! terminals at Heathrow would work, if they doubled the size of it....
    The only large space I can see near to Heathrow for runways 3 and 4 is Windsor Great Park. Is this the Select Committee's preferred location for Heathrow's expansion?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:



    Did you see my post on the previous thread about interest rates? I suspect that by the end of this year base rates will be starting to move up. Whilst that is a good sign for the economy as a whole the main reason that falling real wages over the last 5 years have not caused much greater pain (and reductions in consumption) is the massive boost homeowners got from low mortgage payments.

    If interest rates go up the upward pressure on wages will become severe and the government will have a lot of unhappy voters. There are no unmixed blessings in economics!

    Depends. We has to sell our house during the recession. Things are improving now, and we could buy again, but not at current prices. We will get a boost either from interest on savings, or falling house prices, or both. Bet we're not the only ones, either.
    Gerry, there is no dispute that the policy of all governments in the west since 2008 has been to screw savers to the wall to help protect reckless bankers and their even more reckless clients. Those that have savings will see some increase in income from interest rates and will be able to spend a little more but this will not offset the majority who have mortgages and may see their monthly payments double by the end of next year.

    As I say, the only way this can not cause a reduction in consumption in the UK would be if wages start to increase in real terms again by enough to set off the difference.

    DavidL:

    The way a bank works is this. When you put money in a bank, you become a creditor of the bank. The bank then takes the money you lent it, and lends it again to someone else. The money it is owed (loans) are its assets, and the money it owes (to you) is its liabilities.

    Essentially, you - when you put money in the Royal Bank of Scotland - lent money to the Candy Brothers, who bet on the Middlesex Hospital in Fitzrovia becoming a great success.

    If the Candy Brothers and their ilk cannot repay the money, then the bank is bust. And they cannot repay you. It's not a question of rescuing bankers, it's a question of rescuing depositors. It was you, the person who put money in the bank, who was being rescued, not the bankers.
    Really? So it was just lucky that they kept their jobs, their pensions, even their bonuses in many cases, was it?

    The way our banks were saved protected the vested interests of the staff, the shareholders and the depositers in that order. Had we had legislation in place (AND WE STILL DON'T FOR PITY'S SAKE) that protected the depositers ahead of the other interests they could in theory have gone hang. Like that was ever going to happen.

    Too big to fail, too big to jail, too big for their own boots. The conduct of our bankers makes a rightwinger like me even more angry than the performance of Gordon Brown.
    Well, the shareholders of RBS lost 95% of their money; in the case of Lloyds TSB it was about 80%; HBOS dropped 93% before it was 'rescued'.

    Depositors in these institutions, on the other hand, kept all their money.

    And there have been very substantial job losses in the financial services industry. Between the 4th quarter of 2008 and the start of last year, the number of people employed in the sector dropped by more than 100,000, and there will have been more lay-offs in the last year.

    So: depositors kept their money, shareholders lost most of theirs, and lots of bankers lost their jobs.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Alasdair said:

    TGOHF said:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100216125/send-for-boris-britains-ronald-reagan/

    "Another day, another deranged report on the future of Heathrow. This time it is the Transport Select Committee suggesting that London's main airport be extended to four (four!) runways, doubling the airport's size and blighting the lives of millions of people who live in West London.

    Forget the various horse racing scandals. We must ask: were the members of the select committee doped? Or is it just that they wrote their report without looking at a map?
    It is – once again from the current political class – the sheer lack of ambition and vision that it is so depressing.

    Extending Heathrow rather than looking for a proper long-term solution is simply corporatist defeatism. As though all the airline industry has to do is launch another of its interminable public affairs campaigns and the country will roll over."

    Would be interesting to see how 10! terminals at Heathrow would work, if they doubled the size of it....
    The only large space I can see near to Heathrow for runways 3 and 4 is Windsor Great Park. Is this the Select Committee's preferred location for Heathrow's expansion?
    Sipson and Harmondsworth are the preferred sites. They could go north of the M4 and improve West Drayton by building a runway on it.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,931
    @RCS1000 :

    Thanks for that info. It certainly supports your view, but from an initial browse and a little thought I do have some doubts, particularly over economic recovery and other factors.

    I'll peruse and ponder more over the weekend.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,299

    @RCS1000 :

    Thanks for that info. It certainly supports your view, but from an initial browse and a little thought I do have some doubts, particularly over economic recovery and other factors.

    I'll peruse and ponder more over the weekend.

    If you believe the OfGem report you should buy Summer 2015 electricity futures - they are currently at £54/MWh. That's a stunning 40pence more than the current baseload price.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @tim Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair both prospered by acting regularly as if they were in opposition to their own government. David Cameron at least has the excuse that his government is an explicit coalition and his party supports an additional measure that his coalition partners do not.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited May 2013
    rcs1000 said:

    Grandiose said:

    rcs,

    As I understand it, you set "good loans" against deposits (taxpayer guaranteed), and by bringing over the "bad loans" (i.e. risky, not necessarily in default) to a new balance sheet you allow investors to look at that portfolio for what it is, a high-risk/reward one with no taxpayer guarantee.

    The point I'm making is that a good bank / bad bank split still requires sufficient assets to cover deposits. The Co-Op lost £750m or so last year. I don't know the exact numbers, but a £1bn hole cannot simply be papered over by splitting the bank up. Traditionally (Japan, the US), the government still recapitalises the 'good bank' (which contains the deposits and the good loans).
    If the "bad bank" ceases to take deposits (i.e. no longer acts as a "bank") then its capital requirements fall.

    That is how Central Government is holding all the Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley mortgage books through an asset resolution holding company.

    So the Britannia mortgage books could be split out from the Co-op bank and transferred to central government.

    A dummy run for the RBoS and Lloyds group restructuring plans perhaps? Although that may mean Mervyn King in his dying days stealing the wizard's mantle from Mark Carney!

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    rcs1000 said:

    It was you, the person who put money in the bank, who was being rescued, not the bankers.

    Yes, it is absolutely staggering, and very worrying, that the vast majority of the population don't seem to understand this.

    We've even had people here argue, apparently in all seriousness, that Brown should have let RBS and Lloyds go bust. That would have wiped out some enormous proportion - I'd guess up to half - of all the businesses in the UK.
    If you can't let banks go bust then they shouldn't be private companies.

    I wouldn't have thought it would be impossible to find a way of managing their bankruptcy that didn't bring the rest of the economy down with it, but if that is the case then the only alternative is for the state to run banking
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,933
    edited May 2013

    DavidL said:

    AveryLP said:

    And the good news just keeps getting better

    This time the ONS announce that the UK trade deficit narrowed in March with significant signs that manufacturing exports to non EU countries had made a significant contribution to the improvement.

    Another Richard will be disappointed that we haven't recovered 25 years of decline in one month but the less grumpy will note that the longest journeys begin with baby steps in the right direction.

    UK trade moved further towards positive territory in March as the pound wallowed well below its pre-crisis highs.

    The Office for National Statistics (ONS) reported that the British trade deficit contracted to £9.056bn from £9.165bn in the month before and may continue to narrow due to Sterling scraping a 20-month low in March.

    Including the UK trade surplus in services, the overall deficit decreased to £3.130bn.

    The goods trade deficit between Britain and other EU countries worsened, however, rising to £5.6bn in March from £5.0bn in February.

    This latter deterioration came as improved trade positions with Italy and Ireland were offset by increased deficits with Germany and the Netherlands, according to the ONS.

    On the up-side for manufacturers, the balance with the rest of the world – which is dominated by major emerging markets – did improve as the deficit fell from £4.2bn to £3.5bn, partly due to better exports to the US.


    A word of caution though. The trade balance figures do tend to show wide monthly variances with recent figures following a roller-coaster pattern with underlying improvement slow. Still this month remains good news and the chances of it continuing remain higher with the economic recovery now well under way.

    Still, enough here for Markit's Chief Economist, Chris Williamson to pronounce:

    "Official data and surveys paint an encouraging picture of the UK gaining market share in overseas markets, suggesting the economy is showing signs of rebalancing away from domestic consumption to export-led growth."

    Another Richard to take note.

    Did you see my post on the previous thread about interest rates? I suspect that by the end of this year base rates will be starting to move up. Whilst that is a good sign for the economy as a whole the main reason that falling real wages over the last 5 years have not caused much greater pain (and reductions in consumption) is the massive boost homeowners got from low mortgage payments.

    If interest rates go up the upward pressure on wages will become severe and the government will have a lot of unhappy voters. There are no unmixed blessings in economics!
    There can be no danger from inflation when real wages are still declining. If real wages start to grow again, then the effect of an increase in interest rates will not be so harsh.
    I think that is a classic example of ceteris paribus economic reasoning. In our world the government thinks it is ok to print £375bn of new money and the currency has fallen sharply. Add in these features and inflation is more than possible, it is almost inevitable. Only the extremely deflationary effect of the recession and credit crunch has held it in check so far and it has been "surprising" on the upside for years.

    If the credit crunch eases, as it seems to be doing, then the BoE is going to have to move very carefully and skillfully. Hmmm...

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,846
    Mr. Eagles, d'you think V is worse than the first film then?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    edited May 2013

    Mr. Eagles, d'you think V is worse than the first film then?

    Star Trek V is the standard against which all badness is measured.

    By first picture you mean Star Trek: The Motion Picture?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    Star Trek V is the standard against which all badness is measured.

    ...until the release of Into Darkness
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,933
    Charles said:

    MrJones said:

    rcs1000 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim

    Which bank has made big loans to Labour? Is it not odd that Ed M and Ed B are so damn quiet on the failings of the Co-Op bank? Normally if there is a problem in the banking sector they are all over the media like a rash.

    It's worth noting the size of the 'hole' at the Co-Op is enormous relative to its size. If the numbers I've seen are correct, it is under-capitalised by about £1bn. And given the unusual structure of the group, it's hard to see anyone - other than the government itself - stepping in to fill the hole.

    But could the government step in to rescue a group which is so closely connected with a political party?
    Under capitalised bank, run by committee, unable to attract talented staff. Expensive IT and integration failure. Executive unaccountable to shareholder. It's a recipe for disaster.
    Founded 1872
    The relevance being?

    Barclays 1690, National and Provincial (NatWest) 1833, HSBC 1865 etc

    Mere babies ;-)
    I wish we had a like button. Excellent.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,768
    Scott_P said:


    Star Trek V is the standard against which all badness is measured.

    ...until the release of Into Darkness
    As PB's resident (Trek) Geek, I know what I'm talking about.

    Into Darkness is cinematic magic.
This discussion has been closed.