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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Roger Helmer: Ukip’s first elected MP?

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  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Socrates said:

    A brutal armed robber, who brutally beat up people during his bank raids received 13 life sentences for his crimes. Twelve years later, he's in an open prison and let out for the weekend:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-27280228

    Seriously, what the #### is wrong with the justice system in this country? There's no liberalism for innocent people's private web and phone behaviour, but plenty to go round for convicted hardened criminals.

    Nowadays the police are so politically correct that it is easier for them to get brownie points for the easy arrest - just saves them the bother involved with going after real criminals - for them they would have to do a risk assessment in triplicate first!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    antifrank said:

    NB I'm writing tomorrow's article now. I've already got a classical allusion that Morris Dancer will, hopefully, appreciate and a pun that even TSE would wince at.

    Oooh I look forward to that piece.

    I have a stint as guest editor of pb beginning in a few weeks time, if it is ok with you, can I do a few threads, based on your pieces? I'll make sure you're probably accredited in the threads.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Doing some 'research' for a blog ranting about historical revisionism and discovered the name of the last King of Yorkshire. Anyone fancy a guess?

    Obediah?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    NB I'm writing tomorrow's article now. I've already got a classical allusion that Morris Dancer will, hopefully, appreciate and a pun that even TSE would wince at.

    Oooh I look forward to that piece.

    I have a stint as guest editor of pb beginning in a few weeks time, if it is ok with you, can I do a few threads, based on your pieces? I'll make sure you're probably accredited in the threads.
    Feel free!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    Doing some 'research' for a blog ranting about historical revisionism and discovered the name of the last King of Yorkshire. Anyone fancy a guess?

    Was the last King of Yorkshire called Julius?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    I think Labour will pinch Newark (until May) with Con and UKIP slugging it out for second.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    NB I'm writing tomorrow's article now. I've already got a classical allusion that Morris Dancer will, hopefully, appreciate and a pun that even TSE would wince at.

    Oooh I look forward to that piece.

    I have a stint as guest editor of pb beginning in a few weeks time, if it is ok with you, can I do a few threads, based on your pieces? I'll make sure you're probably accredited in the threads.
    Feel free!
    Thanks.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    taffys said:



    Is there really the hatred of toryism here that some on the left would have us believe? ten years ago I would have said undoubtedly yes. Now I'm not so sure.

    I reckon the tories could do a bit better in Wales than people think.

    As antifrank's analysis notes, the latest poll shows a 5.5% swing from Tories to Labour in Wales, which is roughly in line with the Britain-wide picture. My guess is that the average voter isn't really following Assembly affairs closely enough to cause vote-switching on that account, in either direction.

    Incidentally, hat-tip to antifrank for succeeding in providing a series of interesting, balanced assessments of party politics in Britain even though he dislikes party politics and (I think) mostly lives in Hungary. As with andrea in Italy, perhaps the detachment lent by 1000 miles helps!

    I blush. But I mostly live in London, within a short walk of Dirty Dicks!

    Hungary is my holiday home, which I visit about once every six weeks. I'll next be going in a couple of weeks.
    Would you recommend any hungarian recipes?
    I'm not a great cook, though my other half is. Generally Hungarian food is best when cooked with pork, poultry or game. They benefit enormously from the Austro-Hungarian coffeehouse tradition as well in their cakes.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Topping

    The other night I made it clear that there are files for investigation on republicans over the abuse of children as well as a near existential threat to the UVF from police investigations and asked the question, do we just drop them then.

    Your answer was yes.

    Maybe you didn't get the context but your answer was a yes.

    What the biggest single slice of people want, when you put Protestant and Catholic together regarding the past is that it isn't swept under the carpet. Even if there is some rig on sentences, some recognition of the crime and the penalty for it will be enough. It'll be a hard thing to swallow for some as it means everything, loyalist killings, republican killings and it means Paras who completely lost the head on Bloody Sunday with it. One in, all in. The problem, particularly for Republicans, is that they promised their supporters that they'd make the Brits pay whilst getting off because it was the Brits fault. At least this government has had the wit to shut that door.

    The people don't want it swept under the carpet, they want it addressed. Some Truth & reconciliation committee doesn't address the issue it doesn't give the much talked about closure. This place is not South Africa and there are precisely no parallels.

    Sweep it under the carpet and you offer immunity and you offer those who did the damage the opportunity to be rewarded and many, probably most, of them haven't quite retired yet. They still use their past and all too often present positions as people with guns to get what they want.

    Everyone knows what went on here was a dodgy as f**k during the Troubles but the Troubles are done so its time to stop creating an inequality because of it. Probably the only true thing to come out of Gerry Adam's mouth lats night was his statement that the IRA is done in that regard. So now it is done, what the majority of people want is normal law and order, normal process, equality in its truest sense going forward.

    We haven't got that because too many people in London were in thrall to the gunmen turned suit wearers. I hardly know a bod ever here who really believes the Republicans can properly turn the tap on.

    Over here we seem less afraid than you guys across the water do.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    Tapestry said:

    Roger Helmer shook Farage's hand with freemasonic grip when he left the Conservatives. See photo. It's all the same thing, UKIP, Conservative and all - one big sell-out to big corporations. http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/nigel-farage-is-fracker-windfarms-kill.html

    Isn't Farage a bit.... Common for the Mason's? ;)

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Welcome back Tap.

    "Methane once fracked seeps into water, and out into air, where it lingers, acting as a neurotoxin, a DNA disruptor and an endocrine disruptor, killing people and animals."

    I blame those pesky cows - they're all in it together.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457

    antifrank said:

    NB I'm writing tomorrow's article now. I've already got a classical allusion that Morris Dancer will, hopefully, appreciate and a pun that even TSE would wince at.

    Oooh I look forward to that piece.

    I have a stint as guest editor of pb beginning in a few weeks time, if it is ok with you, can I do a few threads, based on your pieces? I'll make sure you're probably accredited in the threads.
    "Make sure you're probably accredited ?

    I've had assurances like that in the past ... ;-)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    Tapestry said:

    Newark is also coalfield country I believe. Likely to have methane underground, and be a fracking target of Lord Brown, former chair of BP, who is David Cameron's fracking tsar. Methane once fracked seeps into water, and out into air, where it lingers, acting as a neurotoxin, a DNA disruptor and an endocrine disruptor, killing people and animals. That's why it's banned in France.

    No the coal fields are a dozen or so miles to the west.

    And your comments on methane are the stuff of pure fantasy. Not that I am necessarily in favour of fracking but if you are going to argue against it then at least do from a position of some very basic knowledge rather than tin foil hat speculation.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    Doing some 'research' for a blog ranting about historical revisionism and discovered the name of the last King of Yorkshire. Anyone fancy a guess?

    Obediah?
    King Seth T'third.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited May 2014

    antifrank said:

    NB I'm writing tomorrow's article now. I've already got a classical allusion that Morris Dancer will, hopefully, appreciate and a pun that even TSE would wince at.

    Oooh I look forward to that piece.

    I have a stint as guest editor of pb beginning in a few weeks time, if it is ok with you, can I do a few threads, based on your pieces? I'll make sure you're probably accredited in the threads.
    "Make sure you're probably accredited ?

    I've had assurances like that in the past ... ;-)
    Yeah, I meant, properly.

    I blame auto-correct and going to bed at 5.30am.

    And on that note, back to bed.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    No correct guess yet. I'm off for some food now. I shall return with the answer fairly shortly.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Doing some 'research' for a blog ranting about historical revisionism and discovered the name of the last King of Yorkshire. Anyone fancy a guess?

    Nigel?
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    The FT/Populus mega poll is kinda out

    You need to google search "Age and class divide opens up in British electorate" to get the FT piece for free.


    The findings strengthen the conclusion that the surging anti-EU party is not so much the party of “Tories in exile” as the party representing the “left behind” – voters who are poor, poorly educated and feel alienated from the political mainstream.

    Also from that report:"But the broader figures since 2010 show a hardening of class and age divides in Britain. The one social group the Conservatives have improved their position with is professionals and managers, so-called AB voters, with whom they are 10 points ahead of Labour. ....

    Labour has improved most among lower middle-class and skilled manual workers, the group targeted most clearly by Ed Miliband when he warns of a “cost of living crisis”.

    But while Labour is still comfortably ahead of any other party among the working class and the unemployed, it has not benefited from the desertion of such people who voted Conservative and Lib Dem at the last election. Instead, they have switched to the UK Independence party."
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Richard_Tyndall

    King Seth T'last?
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    Y0kel said:

    ...What the biggest single slice of people want, when you put Protestant and Catholic together regarding the past is that it isn't swept under the carpet. Even if there is some rig on sentences, some recognition of the crime and the penalty for it will be enough. It'll be a hard thing to swallow for some as it means everything, loyalist killings, republican killings and it means Paras who completely lost the head on Bloody Sunday with it.One in, all in. The problem, particularly for Republicans, is that they promised their supporters that they'd make the Brits pay whilst getting off because it was the Brits fault. At least this government has had the wit to shut that door.

    Mr Yokel: Is that why the BA got rid off the Belgian 'third' and replaced it with the near-useless 556/point-22..?

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Tapestry said:

    Newark is also coalfield country I believe. Likely to have methane underground, and be a fracking target of Lord Brown, former chair of BP, who is David Cameron's fracking tsar. Methane once fracked seeps into water, and out into air, where it lingers, acting as a neurotoxin, a DNA disruptor and an endocrine disruptor, killing people and animals. That's why it's banned in France.

    Tap, have you ever worried that you are being used by THEM?

    They want fracking banned so that they can keep energy prices high.

    That way they get to maximise their share of the wealth and then, when the oil runs out, they can pivot on fracking... having bought up all the rights on the cheap in the meantime
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    No correct guess yet. I'm off for some food now. I shall return with the answer fairly shortly.

    Erik?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    GIN1138 said:

    Tapestry said:

    Roger Helmer shook Farage's hand with freemasonic grip when he left the Conservatives. See photo. It's all the same thing, UKIP, Conservative and all - one big sell-out to big corporations. http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/nigel-farage-is-fracker-windfarms-kill.html

    Isn't Farage a bit.... Common for the Mason's? ;)

    Nah, they let virtually anyone in. Contrary to popular belief the Freemasonry of England is not, on the whole, a particularly exclusive organisation, in fact its probably one of the few where you can find quite literally a duke and a dustman sitting down to dinner on equal terms.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Tap,

    I'm curious about methane being an endocrine disruptor. Many years ago, I did some research on that using an genetically modified yeast with a reporter gene. A few compounds can act as very weak agonists/antagonists for the oestrogen/androgen receptor but the doses you'd need to see an effect are generally enormous and impossible to achieve.

    Methane ... No, I'll believe the world is run by giant lizards but methane as an endocrine disruptor is a step too far.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    Y0kel said:

    ...What the biggest single slice of people want, when you put Protestant and Catholic together regarding the past is that it isn't swept under the carpet. Even if there is some rig on sentences, some recognition of the crime and the penalty for it will be enough. It'll be a hard thing to swallow for some as it means everything, loyalist killings, republican killings and it means Paras who completely lost the head on Bloody Sunday with it.One in, all in. The problem, particularly for Republicans, is that they promised their supporters that they'd make the Brits pay whilst getting off because it was the Brits fault. At least this government has had the wit to shut that door.

    Mr Yokel: Is that why the BA got rid off the Belgian 'third' and replaced it with the near-useless 556/point-22..?

    I don't think NATO made the decision on the basis of Paras shooting some civvies up in Derry.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376

    GIN1138 said:

    Tapestry said:

    Roger Helmer shook Farage's hand with freemasonic grip when he left the Conservatives. See photo. It's all the same thing, UKIP, Conservative and all - one big sell-out to big corporations. http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/nigel-farage-is-fracker-windfarms-kill.html

    Isn't Farage a bit.... Common for the Mason's? ;)

    Nah, they let virtually anyone in. Contrary to popular belief the Freemasonry of England is not, on the whole, a particularly exclusive organisation, in fact its probably one of the few where you can find quite literally a duke and a dustman sitting down to dinner on equal terms.
    I didn't know that. Amazing what you learn on PB.com.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Tapestry said:

    Newark is also coalfield country I believe. Likely to have methane underground, and be a fracking target of Lord Brown, former chair of BP, who is David Cameron's fracking tsar. Methane once fracked seeps into water, and out into air, where it lingers, acting as a neurotoxin, a DNA disruptor and an endocrine disruptor, killing people and animals. That's why it's banned in France.

    @Tapestry. I am not sure that your description of the methane extraction process is correct (if that is what you mean). From the process P&ID in front of me, great care is taken to extract all methane before recycling the water.

    Are you suggesting that after fracking, residual methane in the earth somehow finds its way to the earth's surface.

    I trust that the French are ignoring the methane given off by livestock and its effect on agricultural workers, and the methane given off by natural anaerobic digestion?

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited May 2014
    CD13

    Be fair, methane has killed lots of people....
    But when Davie invented that lamp it became a bit safer
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Financier said:

    Socrates said:

    A brutal armed robber, who brutally beat up people during his bank raids received 13 life sentences for his crimes. Twelve years later, he's in an open prison and let out for the weekend:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-27280228

    Seriously, what the #### is wrong with the justice system in this country? There's no liberalism for innocent people's private web and phone behaviour, but plenty to go round for convicted hardened criminals.

    Nowadays the police are so politically correct that it is easier for them to get brownie points for the easy arrest - just saves them the bother involved with going after real criminals - for them they would have to do a risk assessment in triplicate first!
    We need much more transparency in sentencing so that victims know what the criminal is actually getting. Prisons should be classified into different groups - e.g. Type A being bread and water and solitary confinement, through to Type F being one of these open prison holiday camps. The judge's sentence should state the minimum time to be spent in which types. Then all the sentences should be put up on a public website, so the media can report of the average toughness of sentences for different crimes.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I had a lovely cold apricot soup in a place looking towards parliament last summer. Very refreshing in the heat. Goose crackling was one of several interesting specialities too.
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    taffys said:



    Is there really the hatred of toryism here that some on the left would have us believe? ten years ago I would have said undoubtedly yes. Now I'm not so sure.

    I reckon the tories could do a bit better in Wales than people think.

    As antifrank's analysis notes, the latest poll shows a 5.5% swing from Tories to Labour in Wales, which is roughly in line with the Britain-wide picture. My guess is that the average voter isn't really following Assembly affairs closely enough to cause vote-switching on that account, in either direction.

    Incidentally, hat-tip to antifrank for succeeding in providing a series of interesting, balanced assessments of party politics in Britain even though he dislikes party politics and (I think) mostly lives in Hungary. As with andrea in Italy, perhaps the detachment lent by 1000 miles helps!

    I blush. But I mostly live in London, within a short walk of Dirty Dicks!

    Hungary is my holiday home, which I visit about once every six weeks. I'll next be going in a couple of weeks.
    Would you recommend any hungarian recipes?
    I'm not a great cook, though my other half is. Generally Hungarian food is best when cooked with pork, poultry or game. They benefit enormously from the Austro-Hungarian coffeehouse tradition as well in their cakes.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The by-election depends on how UKIP do in the Euros IMO. If they win those easily they could have unstoppable momentum in Newark.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Socrates said:

    Financier said:

    Socrates said:

    A brutal armed robber, who brutally beat up people during his bank raids received 13 life sentences for his crimes. Twelve years later, he's in an open prison and let out for the weekend:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-27280228

    Seriously, what the #### is wrong with the justice system in this country? There's no liberalism for innocent people's private web and phone behaviour, but plenty to go round for convicted hardened criminals.

    Nowadays the police are so politically correct that it is easier for them to get brownie points for the easy arrest - just saves them the bother involved with going after real criminals - for them they would have to do a risk assessment in triplicate first!
    We need much more transparency in sentencing so that victims know what the criminal is actually getting. Prisons should be classified into different groups - e.g. Type A being bread and water and solitary confinement, through to Type F being one of these open prison holiday camps. The judge's sentence should state the minimum time to be spent in which types. Then all the sentences should be put up on a public website, so the media can report of the average toughness of sentences for different crimes.
    There speaks someone with zero knowledge of the prison service.

    Prisons are already classified into categories, A to D, A being the most secure, and D being Open prisons, B and C somewhere in between.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    Y0kel said:

    I don't think NATO made the decision on the basis of Paras shooting some civvies up in Derry.

    But, but.... Heavy barrelled 7.62 and .338 Lupua UORs would suggest that "'Uman rights" did influence procurement decisions. [Hence England's AR-50 solution. (Sadly a copy of an 'an ex US-Marines' Taig's murder-weapon, but...).]
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Tapestry said:

    Newark is also coalfield country I believe. Likely to have methane underground, and be a fracking target of Lord Brown, former chair of BP, who is David Cameron's fracking tsar. Methane once fracked seeps into water, and out into air, where it lingers, acting as a neurotoxin, a DNA disruptor and an endocrine disruptor, killing people and animals. That's why it's banned in France.

    And your comments on methane are the stuff of pure fantasy.
    You do have to wonder why we are pumping a 'neurotoxin' into people's homes - maybe its cunningly calling it 'natural gas' that's got them hoodwinked?
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Yokel, despite Adams being released after being questioned. Do you think that this is the end of the matter for him, or is there more to come from the current ongoing investigations which will finally see his past catching up with him?
    Y0kel said:

    Topping

    The other night I made it clear that there are files for investigation on republicans over the abuse of children as well as a near existential threat to the UVF from police investigations and asked the question, do we just drop them then.

    Your answer was yes.

    Maybe you didn't get the context but your answer was a yes.

    What the biggest single slice of people want, when you put Protestant and Catholic together regarding the past is that it isn't swept under the carpet. Even if there is some rig on sentences, some recognition of the crime and the penalty for it will be enough. It'll be a hard thing to swallow for some as it means everything, loyalist killings, republican killings and it means Paras who completely lost the head on Bloody Sunday with it. One in, all in. The problem, particularly for Republicans, is that they promised their supporters that they'd make the Brits pay whilst getting off because it was the Brits fault. At least this government has had the wit to shut that door.

    The people don't want it swept under the carpet, they want it addressed. Some Truth & reconciliation committee doesn't address the issue it doesn't give the much talked about closure. This place is not South Africa and there are precisely no parallels.

    Sweep it under the carpet and you offer immunity and you offer those who did the damage the opportunity to be rewarded and many, probably most, of them haven't quite retired yet. They still use their past and all too often present positions as people with guns to get what they want.

    Everyone knows what went on here was a dodgy as f**k during the Troubles but the Troubles are done so its time to stop creating an inequality because of it. Probably the only true thing to come out of Gerry Adam's mouth lats night was his statement that the IRA is done in that regard. So now it is done, what the majority of people want is normal law and order, normal process, equality in its truest sense going forward.

    We haven't got that because too many people in London were in thrall to the gunmen turned suit wearers. I hardly know a bod ever here who really believes the Republicans can properly turn the tap on.

    Over here we seem less afraid than you guys across the water do.

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Smarmeron,

    Indeed. The old "fire damp" tended to kill because of its flammability. I suspect in the early 19th century, they had less to worry about as regards endocrine disruption though. So Humphry Davy's finest achievement (apart from Michael Faraday).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited May 2014
    As an aside, re the Skull Cracker, back in 2002, the judge said he must serve a minimum of eight years.

    So he's already served more than 150% the Judge's recommendation.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Greece.
    I watched a (not great) speech Mr Farage gave in January yesterday. He included some rather startling Greece info:

    Youth unemployment >60%
    The economy has contracted by >25% since 2008, and is expected to contract 5% this year.
    Golden Dawn _describe themselves_ as neo-Nazis, and they are the third party in Greece.

    youtu.be/XbCgw2nsrOw
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    welshowl said:

    No correct guess yet. I'm off for some food now. I shall return with the answer fairly shortly.

    Erik?
    Technically it was not yorkshire when Eric bloodaxe was king having been renamed the kingdom of Jorvik before that I think it was Edwin of Northumbria

  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    edited May 2014

    As an aside, re the Skull Cracker, back in 2002, the judge said he must serve a minimum of eight years.

    So he's already served more than 150% the Judge's recommendation.

    Worth remembering that the judge didn't recommend he serve 8 years and then be released, he got a life sentence. The judge recommended he serve 8 years and then be allowed to apply for parole if he was no longer a reoffending risk. If he was never able to convince the system he had changed the judge recommended he never leave prison.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    Charles said:

    Doing some 'research' for a blog ranting about historical revisionism and discovered the name of the last King of Yorkshire. Anyone fancy a guess?

    Nigel?

    Surely there never was a proper king of Yorkshire. A "shire" is a division of a larger entity. Thus, it is part of a bigger whole. There were kings of Northumbria, but that encompassed a territory much bigger than Yorkshire and went well into modern day Scotland.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Owl (and Mr. Pagan) is quite right.

    Eric/Erik Bloodaxe.

    Mr. Pagan, you're technically correct, but it's more of a semantic than significant difference between the Kingdom of Jorvik and Yorkshire.

    On the other hand, I'm halfway through writing a blog lambasting those who impose modern maps onto ancient lands, so perhaps I should thrash myself with an enormo-haddock, to teach me a lesson....
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    fitalass said:

    Yokel, despite Adams being released after being questioned. Do you think that this is the end of the matter for him, or is there more to come from the current ongoing investigations which will finally see his past catching up with him?

    Y0kel said:

    Topping

    The other night I made it clear that there are files for investigation on republicans over the abuse of children as well as a near existential threat to the UVF from police investigations and asked the question, do we just drop them then.

    Your answer was yes.

    Maybe you didn't get the context but your answer was a yes.

    What the biggest single slice of people want, when you put Protestant and Catholic together regarding the past is that it isn't swept under the carpet. Even if there is some rig on sentences, some recognition of the crime and the penalty for it will be enough. It'll be a hard thing to swallow for some as it means everything, loyalist killings, republican killings and it means Paras who completely lost the head on Bloody Sunday with it. One in, all in. The problem, particularly for Republicans, is that they promised their supporters that they'd make the Brits pay whilst getting off because it was the Brits fault. At least this government has had the wit to shut that door.

    The people don't want it swept under the carpet, they want it addressed. Some Truth & reconciliation committee doesn't address the issue it doesn't give the much talked about closure. This place is not South Africa and there are precisely no parallels.

    Sweep it under the carpet and you offer immunity and you offer those who did the damage the opportunity to be rewarded and many, probably most, of them haven't quite retired yet. They still use their past and all too often present positions as people with guns to get what they want.

    Everyone knows what went on here was a dodgy as f**k during the Troubles but the Troubles are done so its time to stop creating an inequality because of it. Probably the only true thing to come out of Gerry Adam's mouth lats night was his statement that the IRA is done in that regard. So now it is done, what the majority of people want is normal law and order, normal process, equality in its truest sense going forward.

    We haven't got that because too many people in London were in thrall to the gunmen turned suit wearers. I hardly know a bod ever here who really believes the Republicans can properly turn the tap on.

    Over here we seem less afraid than you guys across the water do.

    He will eventually get flushed out in some way or another.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    CD13 said:

    Smarmeron,

    Indeed. The old "fire damp" tended to kill because of its flammability. I suspect in the early 19th century, they had less to worry about as regards endocrine disruption though. So Humphry Davy's finest achievement (apart from Michael Faraday).

    OT My Great Great (a few more greats) Uncle was Faraday's Best Man at his wedding.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Quincel said:

    As an aside, re the Skull Cracker, back in 2002, the judge said he must serve a minimum of eight years.

    So he's already served more than 150% the Judge's recommendation.

    Worth remembering that the judge didn't recommend he serve 8 years and then be released, he got a life sentence. The judge recommended he serve 8 years and then be allowed to apply for parole if he was no longer a reoffending risk. If he was never able to convince the system he had changed the judge recommended he never leave prison.
    Indeed. The fact he was at an open prison means he was assessed to be somewhere closer to release than not.

    It is one of my bugbears that people don't understand what life sentencing really means, that it usually is more nuanced.

    The media reporting leaves a lot to be desired.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    ZenPagan said:

    welshowl said:

    No correct guess yet. I'm off for some food now. I shall return with the answer fairly shortly.

    Erik?
    Technically it was not yorkshire when Eric bloodaxe was king having been renamed the kingdom of Jorvik before that I think it was Edwin of Northumbria

    At one point 'Northumbria' was split into two kingdoms of Deira and Bernicia. I think most of Yorkshire was in the kingdom of Deira.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Y0kel said:

    fitalass said:

    Yokel, despite Adams being released after being questioned. Do you think that this is the end of the matter for him, or is there more to come from the current ongoing investigations which will finally see his past catching up with him?

    Y0kel said:

    Topping

    The other night I made it clear that there are files for investigation on republicans over the abuse of children as well as a near existential threat to the UVF from police investigations and asked the question, do we just drop them then.

    Your answer was yes.

    Maybe you didn't get the context but your answer was a yes.

    What the biggest single slice of people want, when you put Protestant and Catholic together regarding the past is that it isn't swept under the carpet. Even if there is some rig on sentences, some recognition of the crime and the penalty for it will be enough. It'll be a hard thing to swallow for some as it means everything, loyalist killings, republican killings and it means Paras who completely lost the head on Bloody Sunday with it. One in, all in. The problem, particularly for Republicans, is that they promised their supporters that they'd make the Brits pay whilst getting off because it was the Brits fault. At least this government has had the wit to shut that door.

    The people don't want it swept under the carpet, they want it addressed. Some Truth & reconciliation committee doesn't address the issue it doesn't give the much talked about closure. This place is not South Africa and there are precisely no parallels.

    Sweep it under the carpet and you offer immunity and you offer those who did the damage the opportunity to be rewarded and many, probably most, of them haven't quite retired yet. They still use their past and all too often present positions as people with guns to get what they want.

    Everyone knows what went on here was a dodgy as f**k during the Troubles but the Troubles are done so its time to stop creating an inequality because of it. Probably the only true thing to come out of Gerry Adam's mouth lats night was his statement that the IRA is done in that regard. So now it is done, what the majority of people want is normal law and order, normal process, equality in its truest sense going forward.

    We haven't got that because too many people in London were in thrall to the gunmen turned suit wearers. I hardly know a bod ever here who really believes the Republicans can properly turn the tap on.

    Over here we seem less afraid than you guys across the water do.

    He will eventually get flushed out in some way or another.
    Wouldn't it just be easier for all if you paddies could accept being second class citizens ?;-)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Tyndall, I didn't know that. It's quite interesting (and I might steal some Deiran king names for future books).
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    @Morris Dancer - Michael Wood did a BBC documentary back in the late 70s/early 80s entitled "In Search of Eric Bloodaxe". It's on YouTube, I believe.

    As I say down below - there never was a king of Yorkshire because a shire is a sub-division of a larger entity. What you could talk about is the last King to rule over Yorkshire before it became a part of England.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420

    At one point 'Northumbria' was split into two kingdoms of Deira and Bernicia. I think most of Yorkshire was in the kingdom of Deira.

    There are a few - ahem - posters on here that are looking forward to Yorkshire being ruled, once again, from the Anglo-Saxon city of Edinborough. Sadly most (if not all) of them are relatively recent Oirish imports.... :(
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,146
    Blog from Jon Snow after his and C4 News' visit to Scotland.

    'Having just spent a week in first the Western Isles, and second in Glasgow, hatred of Westminster is by far the most dominant factor in people who told me they were voting yes to Scottish independence. The theme was constantly repeated to me. For some, voting Yes is a long deep seated desire for an independent Scotland. But for far more it seems to be a relatively recent desire to have nothing to do with what so many spoke of as “the sleaze, dishonesty, and self-serving London-centric politics of Westminster”.

    I have come away from Scotland deeply impressed by the high quality of debate, and the relatively low quality of many of the arguments put forward by the No campaign. I’m equally impressed by the range and quality of people who constantly surprised me by their commitment – often recently determined, to vote yes. My sense too is that where the vote on Scottish independence is concerned, Westminster politicians just don’t get it.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ns6xuwb
  • JamesMJamesM Posts: 221
    Many thanks @Morris_Dancer. It was a tough 30 minutes workout, made harder by my bizarre decision to leave my hoodie on throughout the time, despite the exercise and rather pleasant May weather. Indeed it became like a new version of Bikram Boxing! The trainer then rather sneakily added sprints, press-ups, planks and the dreaded burpees in to the mix, leaving me exhausted by 11am! But I am now slightly rested up and back out to pile the calories back on with some food whilst enjoying looking around the book stalls at the event. A really good community event it is too!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Divvie, I find it hard to take Snow seriously after he complained of 'Soviet style censorship' when the MoD put a D-notice on Prince Harry's deployment to Afghanistan.

    Mr. M, congratulations on your survival :p
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited May 2014

    Blog from Jon Snow after his and C4 News' visit to Scotland.

    'Having just spent a week in first the Western Isles, and second in Glasgow, hatred of Westminster is by far the most dominant factor in people who told me they were voting yes to Scottish independence. The theme was constantly repeated to me. For some, voting Yes is a long deep seated desire for an independent Scotland. But for far more it seems to be a relatively recent desire to have nothing to do with what so many spoke of as “the sleaze, dishonesty, and self-serving London-centric politics of Westminster”.

    I have come away from Scotland deeply impressed by the high quality of debate, and the relatively low quality of many of the arguments put forward by the No campaign. I’m equally impressed by the range and quality of people who constantly surprised me by their commitment – often recently determined, to vote yes. My sense too is that where the vote on Scottish independence is concerned, Westminster politicians just don’t get it.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ns6xuwb

    Snow, one in a long line of Potemkin village day trippers and dupes.

  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042

    Quincel said:

    As an aside, re the Skull Cracker, back in 2002, the judge said he must serve a minimum of eight years.

    So he's already served more than 150% the Judge's recommendation.

    Worth remembering that the judge didn't recommend he serve 8 years and then be released, he got a life sentence. The judge recommended he serve 8 years and then be allowed to apply for parole if he was no longer a reoffending risk. If he was never able to convince the system he had changed the judge recommended he never leave prison.
    Indeed. The fact he was at an open prison means he was assessed to be somewhere closer to release than not.

    It is one of my bugbears that people don't understand what life sentencing really means, that it usually is more nuanced.

    The media reporting leaves a lot to be desired.

    Yes, the fact that he was at an open prison leaves an interesting question as to who read the situation wrong. Was he wrongly categorised, or is he much less of a threat than the media coverage would suggest? I wouldn't rule either out, but I know which one I hope is true.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Blog from Jon Snow after his and C4 News' visit to Scotland.

    'Having just spent a week in first the Western Isles, and second in Glasgow, hatred of Westminster is by far the most dominant factor in people who told me they were voting yes to Scottish independence. The theme was constantly repeated to me. For some, voting Yes is a long deep seated desire for an independent Scotland. But for far more it seems to be a relatively recent desire to have nothing to do with what so many spoke of as “the sleaze, dishonesty, and self-serving London-centric politics of Westminster”.

    I have come away from Scotland deeply impressed by the high quality of debate, and the relatively low quality of many of the arguments put forward by the No campaign. I’m equally impressed by the range and quality of people who constantly surprised me by their commitment – often recently determined, to vote yes. My sense too is that where the vote on Scottish independence is concerned, Westminster politicians just don’t get it.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ns6xuwb

    He did do a bit more than a flying visit , the usual unionist , fly in quick talk to closed audience and rushed back to plane does not seem to give them much of a clue that people hate them and their lies.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Blog from Jon Snow after his and C4 News' visit to Scotland.

    'Having just spent a week in first the Western Isles, and second in Glasgow, hatred of Westminster is by far the most dominant factor in people who told me they were voting yes to Scottish independence. The theme was constantly repeated to me. For some, voting Yes is a long deep seated desire for an independent Scotland. But for far more it seems to be a relatively recent desire to have nothing to do with what so many spoke of as “the sleaze, dishonesty, and self-serving London-centric politics of Westminster”.

    I have come away from Scotland deeply impressed by the high quality of debate, and the relatively low quality of many of the arguments put forward by the No campaign. I’m equally impressed by the range and quality of people who constantly surprised me by their commitment – often recently determined, to vote yes. My sense too is that where the vote on Scottish independence is concerned, Westminster politicians just don’t get it.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ns6xuwb

    Snow, one in a long line of Potemkin village day trippers and dupes.

    monica , deluded as ever , you missed the 14 in front of day, turnip. He spent 2 weeks up here.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited May 2014
    Further to Friday night at DDs: I knew I had heard of "Aspalls" (rather non-descript with their Cider)!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspall_Cider

    Point-in-case:
    The company also imports and markets: Spanish Red Wine Vinegar and White Wine Vinegar, and an Italian Organic Balsamic Vinegar.
    :yummy:
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915

    GIN1138 said:

    Tapestry said:

    Roger Helmer shook Farage's hand with freemasonic grip when he left the Conservatives. See photo. It's all the same thing, UKIP, Conservative and all - one big sell-out to big corporations. http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/nigel-farage-is-fracker-windfarms-kill.html

    Isn't Farage a bit.... Common for the Mason's? ;)

    Nah, they let virtually anyone in. Contrary to popular belief the Freemasonry of England is not, on the whole, a particularly exclusive organisation, in fact its probably one of the few where you can find quite literally a duke and a dustman sitting down to dinner on equal terms.
    One of the founding principals of Freemasonry is indeed that social status in the outside world is left behind at the door of the lodge. However speaking as a lapsed Scottish Freemason, the lodge to which one belongs is often an indication of one's perceived social status. The smaller the number of the lodge, the grander its standing in the hierarchy.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited May 2014

    As an aside, re the Skull Cracker, back in 2002, the judge said he must serve a minimum of eight years.

    So he's already served more than 150% the Judge's recommendation.

    8 years is a ridiculously low sentence for what that person did. We need to toughen up our justice system in order to restore public confidence.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    whilst we use their vinegars I much prefer their cider.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    I see The Pallisers has just started a showing on BBC2. I enjoyed it greatly back in the 70s when it was originally shown. It stars one of my all-time favourite actresses, Lady Kulukundis.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    Blog from Jon Snow after his and C4 News' visit to Scotland.

    'Having just spent a week in first the Western Isles, and second in Glasgow, hatred of Westminster is by far the most dominant factor in people who told me they were voting yes to Scottish independence. The theme was constantly repeated to me. For some, voting Yes is a long deep seated desire for an independent Scotland. But for far more it seems to be a relatively recent desire to have nothing to do with what so many spoke of as “the sleaze, dishonesty, and self-serving London-centric politics of Westminster”.

    I have come away from Scotland deeply impressed by the high quality of debate, and the relatively low quality of many of the arguments put forward by the No campaign. I’m equally impressed by the range and quality of people who constantly surprised me by their commitment – often recently determined, to vote yes. My sense too is that where the vote on Scottish independence is concerned, Westminster politicians just don’t get it.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ns6xuwb

    He did do a bit more than a flying visit , the usual unionist , fly in quick talk to closed audience and rushed back to plane does not seem to give them much of a clue that people hate them and their lies.
    And his analysis of the problem:

    One senses on the ground in Scotland that the government has left it to the 41 Labour MPs, Labour MSP’s, party workers, and union members to get the No vote out. But some of them, sniffing the possibility of a Yes victory, don’t want to be associated with the “No campaign” when they view their political futures after the vote.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    He was on parole for a 27 year sentence when he comitted 13 robberies in the space of 10 months in 2001-2. That he should be allowed out of prison at all (Even for visitations) is utterly ludicrous.

    This is precisely the sort of case that makes people think the justice system is full of bed wetting liberals.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,146
    malcolmg said:

    Blog from Jon Snow after his and C4 News' visit to Scotland.

    'Having just spent a week in first the Western Isles, and second in Glasgow, hatred of Westminster is by far the most dominant factor in people who told me they were voting yes to Scottish independence. The theme was constantly repeated to me. For some, voting Yes is a long deep seated desire for an independent Scotland. But for far more it seems to be a relatively recent desire to have nothing to do with what so many spoke of as “the sleaze, dishonesty, and self-serving London-centric politics of Westminster”.

    I have come away from Scotland deeply impressed by the high quality of debate, and the relatively low quality of many of the arguments put forward by the No campaign. I’m equally impressed by the range and quality of people who constantly surprised me by their commitment – often recently determined, to vote yes. My sense too is that where the vote on Scottish independence is concerned, Westminster politicians just don’t get it.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ns6xuwb

    Snow, one in a long line of Potemkin village day trippers and dupes.

    monica , deluded as ever , you missed the 14 in front of day, turnip. He spent 2 weeks up here.

    Monica gets all her 'Scotch' news from the Telegraph and the Daily Mail which undoubtedly gives the true picture of what's going on here. A fetid blast from Cochrane is worth a hundred days in North Britain.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915

    Blog from Jon Snow after his and C4 News' visit to Scotland.

    'Having just spent a week in first the Western Isles, and second in Glasgow, hatred of Westminster is by far the most dominant factor in people who told me they were voting yes to Scottish independence. The theme was constantly repeated to me. For some, voting Yes is a long deep seated desire for an independent Scotland. But for far more it seems to be a relatively recent desire to have nothing to do with what so many spoke of as “the sleaze, dishonesty, and self-serving London-centric politics of Westminster”.

    I have come away from Scotland deeply impressed by the high quality of debate, and the relatively low quality of many of the arguments put forward by the No campaign. I’m equally impressed by the range and quality of people who constantly surprised me by their commitment – often recently determined, to vote yes. My sense too is that where the vote on Scottish independence is concerned, Westminster politicians just don’t get it.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ns6xuwb

    Couldn't put it better myself. It is 1998 all over again. Nothing David Cameron can do to stop it.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    malcolmg said:

    whilst we use their vinegars I much prefer their cider.

    Official:

    Unckie Malc tolerates shy[Moderated]te! :P

    :from-the-horses-mouth:
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    GIN1138 said:

    Tapestry said:

    Roger Helmer shook Farage's hand with freemasonic grip when he left the Conservatives. See photo. It's all the same thing, UKIP, Conservative and all - one big sell-out to big corporations. http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/nigel-farage-is-fracker-windfarms-kill.html

    Isn't Farage a bit.... Common for the Mason's? ;)

    Nah, they let virtually anyone in. Contrary to popular belief the Freemasonry of England is not, on the whole, a particularly exclusive organisation, in fact its probably one of the few where you can find quite literally a duke and a dustman sitting down to dinner on equal terms.
    One of the founding principals of Freemasonry is indeed that social status in the outside world is left behind at the door of the lodge. However speaking as a lapsed Scottish Freemason, the lodge to which one belongs is often an indication of one's perceived social status. The smaller the number of the lodge, the grander its standing in the hierarchy.

    GIN1138 said:

    Tapestry said:

    Roger Helmer shook Farage's hand with freemasonic grip when he left the Conservatives. See photo. It's all the same thing, UKIP, Conservative and all - one big sell-out to big corporations. http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/nigel-farage-is-fracker-windfarms-kill.html

    Isn't Farage a bit.... Common for the Mason's? ;)

    Nah, they let virtually anyone in. Contrary to popular belief the Freemasonry of England is not, on the whole, a particularly exclusive organisation, in fact its probably one of the few where you can find quite literally a duke and a dustman sitting down to dinner on equal terms.
    One of the founding principals of Freemasonry is indeed that social status in the outside world is left behind at the door of the lodge. However speaking as a lapsed Scottish Freemason, the lodge to which one belongs is often an indication of one's perceived social status. The smaller the number of the lodge, the grander its standing in the hierarchy.
    Easterross, in Scotland one must be in Lodge No. 0. the oldest lodge in the world.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    He was locked up for nine years in the eighties for a single post office raid. In 1988 he was released to attend hospital but failed to return.

    It was the start of a robbery spree in which he raided nine targets for which he was jailed for 16 years in 1989, to run consecutively to the nine years.

    The 16 years was later reduced on appeal to 11 years, but still consecutive to the nine-year term.

    In 1992 he went on the run again after he was released to see an optician and never returned.

    This time he committed eight armed robberies for which he was sentenced to seven years in 1993 consecutive to the 20 years he was previously serving.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Lock him up. Throw away the bloody key.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited May 2014

    Blog from Jon Snow after his and C4 News' visit to Scotland.

    'Having just spent a week in first the Western Isles, and second in Glasgow, hatred of Westminster is by far the most dominant factor in people who told me they were voting yes to Scottish independence. The theme was constantly repeated to me. For some, voting Yes is a long deep seated desire for an independent Scotland. But for far more it seems to be a relatively recent desire to have nothing to do with what so many spoke of as “the sleaze, dishonesty, and self-serving London-centric politics of Westminster”.

    I have come away from Scotland deeply impressed by the high quality of debate, and the relatively low quality of many of the arguments put forward by the No campaign. I’m equally impressed by the range and quality of people who constantly surprised me by their commitment – often recently determined, to vote yes. My sense too is that where the vote on Scottish independence is concerned, Westminster politicians just don’t get it.'

    http://tinyurl.com/ns6xuwb

    Couldn't put it better myself. It is 1998 all over again. Nothing David Cameron can do to stop it.
    Do you agree with Snow that the fate of the Union lies in Labour's hands?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Mr Snow's loathing for the Uk and it's history is hardly news.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Yokel - for clarity, are you hinting that what one brother has been done for might apply to the other ?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    Very interesting piece from Jon Snow. If I was up in Scotland I have to say I would find it difficult to resist voting Yes. It is a chance to start again and to create something new. I also agree with Snow that the political repercussions across the current UK in the event of a Yes are unknowable, but likely to be profound. He is also right that the separation is likely to be acrimonious. That will be exacerbated by the reality of a Yes, which will still see Westminster dictating Scotland's economic and fiscal direction, so ensuring that the brave new world the SNP is promising will be undeliverable. What a mess!
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    AndyJS said:

    As an aside, re the Skull Cracker, back in 2002, the judge said he must serve a minimum of eight years.

    So he's already served more than 150% the Judge's recommendation.

    8 years is a ridiculously low sentence for what that person did. We need to toughen up our justice system in order to restore public confidence.
    He got a life sentence, if the parole system does its job properly then he would never be released unless he was safe. And you can't blame the judge if they don't.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "It is 1998 all over again. Nothing David Cameron can do to stop it."

    What happened in 1998? Lost me on that one.

    As for the Scottish Independence result, why should Cameron even be involved, let alone want to influence the result? Its got bugger all to do with him, or any Englishman. If you fellows decide you want to go off on your own then that is your decision. Cameron will have a job to do after the vote - to get the best divorce settlement for the English. If he does it well he might go down in history as Cameron, Malleus Scotorum - but I expect he will feck it up the same as he does everything else.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Llama, devolution votes?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    Tapestry said:

    Thanks for welcome back, EdmundIntokyo. Any fracking going on in Newark, or at least any planning applications?
    http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/nigel-farage-is-fracker-windfarms-kill.html
    It's banned in France and should be banned in England too where population is much denser.

    Not fracking but there are some 3000 oil wells within about a 40 mile radius of Newark. Dukes Wood at Eakering in the constituency was the site of the first onshore oil wells in the UK in WW2 when American oilmen broke their own country's embargo on exporting oil technology prior to 1941 and came over to help the British. After the war the area was the centre of UK oil production until the North Sea took off and Whytch Farm in Dorset was discovered.

    But there are still large numbers of oil wells in the area and a big production facility at Welton just north of Lincoln.

    A lot of oil and gas people live in the constituency.
    A couple of years ago I walked past a couple of nodding donkeys on an old airfield at Fiskerton, to the northeast of Lincoln.

    They always seem a strange sight in the UK.

    As an aside, the Wytch farm oilwells seem really well disguised; you'd hardly know they were there in some cases. ?BP? did a really good job setting them up.
    I agree. I always find it remarkable whenever I drive along the high road above the valley heading for Studland Bay to look down into the valley and see nothing but woodland. You would never know there was the largest onshore oil field in Europe right in front of your eyes.

    Edit - and in answer to your question it is now operated by Perenco.
    There's one at Kimmeridge Bay - very much more obvious. But usefully so, given the importance of the area in school and college field trips - see the oil shale and see the donkey across the bay ...

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    "It is 1998 all over again. Nothing David Cameron can do to stop it."

    What happened in 1998? Lost me on that one.

    As for the Scottish Independence result, why should Cameron even be involved, let alone want to influence the result? Its got bugger all to do with him, or any Englishman. If you fellows decide you want to go off on your own then that is your decision. Cameron will have a job to do after the vote - to get the best divorce settlement for the English. If he does it well he might go down in history as Cameron, Malleus Scotorum - but I expect he will feck it up the same as he does everything else.

    Cameron may be English, but he is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. On that basis he has quite a bit to do with it. And when negotiating the divorce - assuming he has not resigned - he must do it in the name not of England, but the reduced UK, including Wales and Northern Ireland.

    If Cameron's nationality means that he should keep out of the independence debate then the Union is already effectively dead and is best put out of its misery.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Observer, Cameron has not kept out of the wider debate, but the vote is by Scots and about Scotland's future, so it would be daft to have Cameron as the unionist voice in a debate against Salmond as that would paint No as English and yes as Scottish, whereas both sides are fronted (rightly) by Scots.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Tapestry, forget methane and tracking - we want your take on Malaysian Airlines flight MH370.....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    So the electoral comission states that being an MP is incompatible with being an MEP. Anyone know what that means, and where the relevant statute is? Part B, 3.8

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/electoral_commission_pdf_file/0015/14154/UKPE-CA-by-election-guidance.pdf
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    I find Jon Snow's opinion that the quality of the debate in the Scottish Indy referendum has been high quite bizarre. It has been truly terrible, and from both sides.

    The SNP campaign has been a fiasco with so many mistakes, fantasies and plain dishonesty that an even vaguely inquiring media would have completely demolished them by now. But so many people are scared of the consequences of being seen to be on one side of the argument or the other that they have largely got away with it.

    The Better Together campaign has become obsessed with demonstrating the latest idiocy by Salmond (the speech in Europe being the latest) that they frequently forget that they have a campaign to fight themselves. They have also shouted "wolf" and "end of the world as we know it" so many times that it is clearly losing effectiveness.

    Scots generally are stuck in the middle of this conversation of the deaf. They really don't like being lectured about all the things they supposedly won't be able to do that so many small countries clearly can. Some of the opinions from south of the border are deeply patronising and irritating. But they are not being offered a credible future either by a pan-glossian campaign that seems increasingly disconnected with reality.

    I personally think that Better Together must accentuate the positive in these last few months. They must emphasise all the things that Scotland gets out of being a part of a larger, successful economy, a political player in the world and the EU and from our integrated institutions. If they continue to simply point out that Salmond is wrong about almost everything they could lose.

    The worst case scenario, which seems increasingly likely to me, is that there is a sullen and reluctant no by the narrowest of margins resolving nothing going forward.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    that would paint No as English and yes as Scottish

    Hence the SNP's enthusiasm for such a debate.....Has Salmond agreed to debate Darling yet?

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    Mr. Observer, Cameron has not kept out of the wider debate, but the vote is by Scots and about Scotland's future, so it would be daft to have Cameron as the unionist voice in a debate against Salmond as that would paint No as English and yes as Scottish, whereas both sides are fronted (rightly) by Scots.

    I agree. My point was that if being English precludes someone from participating in a debate about the break-up of a 300 year old country that England is a part of - especially when that person is the PM of said country (not England) - then it is best to begin the divorce proceedings as soon as possible because the country has no future.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Observer, well, quite.

    Labour were so bloody stupid to go for devolution to try and give themselves a permanent fiefdom. Regional assemblies in England would be even worse.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    Helmer reminds me of Roger Mellie from the telly (Viz)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Cameron should debate a Kipper or other Eng nat who wants Scotland to leave..
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "He is also right that the separation is likely to be acrimonious. That will be exacerbated by the reality of a Yes, which will still see Westminster dictating Scotland's economic and fiscal direction, so ensuring that the brave new world the SNP is promising will be undeliverable. What a mess!"

    Of course, its gong to be a mess. A dreadfully acrimonious split and the Scots are going to have a massive chip on their shoulder for a century or more. That is inevitable because the Yes vote will have been engineered, as you have pointed out many times, by Project Fib.

    In many ways its like the Euro, a project rushed to satisfy the vanity of ageing politicians desperate to achieve a goal before they leave the stage. So many lies have been told, so many expectations raised that the reality is going to be a massive disappointment. However, the job of whoever is in charge at Westminster will be to get the best deal for England. Given that it will be either Cameron or Milliband in the chair I think we can be sure of the worst possible outcome, for both sides.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    Very interesting piece from Jon Snow. If I was up in Scotland I have to say I would find it difficult to resist voting Yes. It is a chance to start again and to create something new.

    The political case for Yes is strong and No are finding it very difficult to counter.

    The economic case for Yes is pitifully weak and consists of sophistry and optimism of a bizarre order. But the political case is all that is being heard.

    The Scottish people are going to be extraordinarily pissed off with politicians of all hues when they discover the reality of independence (which I am now inclined to think may indeed happen, given that getting the No vote out depends on SLAB getting off their arses...).
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    DavidL said:

    I find Jon Snow's opinion that the quality of the debate in the Scottish Indy referendum has been high quite bizarre. It has been truly terrible, and from both sides.....

    The worst case scenario, which seems increasingly likely to me, is that there is a sullen and reluctant no by the narrowest of margins resolving nothing going forward.


    This blog that Carlotta posted the other day was good I thought.

    http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/05/02/two-positive-cases/

    The difficulty is that most of the positives for the Union are near the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs and a bit more difficult to communicate in a snappy slogan.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Utterly off-topic, but as well as a potential sequel, there seems to be a The Last of Us film in the offing. Videogame films tend to be somewhere between comically awful and plain terrible, but if there were a videogame that might just make a decent film, this would be it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    Mr. Observer, Cameron has not kept out of the wider debate, but the vote is by Scots and about Scotland's future, so it would be daft to have Cameron as the unionist voice in a debate against Salmond as that would paint No as English and yes as Scottish, whereas both sides are fronted (rightly) by Scots.

    I agree. My point was that if being English precludes someone from participating in a debate about the break-up of a 300 year old country that England is a part of - especially when that person is the PM of said country (not England) - then it is best to begin the divorce proceedings as soon as possible because the country has no future.
    I agree but I also agree that Labour voters hold the key to the referendum. One of the tragedies of this is that we have a Labour leader who inspires no respect, affection or frankly even interest north of the border (or really anywhere else so far as I can see). I think this means that the PM of the United Kingdom must make the case despite the risks and the nature of the target group.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    DavidL said:

    I find Jon Snow's opinion that the quality of the debate in the Scottish Indy referendum has been high quite bizarre. It has been truly terrible, and from both sides.

    The SNP campaign has been a fiasco with so many mistakes, fantasies and plain dishonesty that an even vaguely inquiring media would have completely demolished them by now. But so many people are scared of the consequences of being seen to be on one side of the argument or the other that they have largely got away with it.

    The Better Together campaign has become obsessed with demonstrating the latest idiocy by Salmond (the speech in Europe being the latest) that they frequently forget that they have a campaign to fight themselves. They have also shouted "wolf" and "end of the world as we know it" so many times that it is clearly losing effectiveness.

    Scots generally are stuck in the middle of this conversation of the deaf. They really don't like being lectured about all the things they supposedly won't be able to do that so many small countries clearly can. Some of the opinions from south of the border are deeply patronising and irritating. But they are not being offered a credible future either by a pan-glossian campaign that seems increasingly disconnected with reality.

    I personally think that Better Together must accentuate the positive in these last few months. They must emphasise all the things that Scotland gets out of being a part of a larger, successful economy, a political player in the world and the EU and from our integrated institutions. If they continue to simply point out that Salmond is wrong about almost everything they could lose.

    The worst case scenario, which seems increasingly likely to me, is that there is a sullen and reluctant no by the narrowest of margins resolving nothing going forward.

    There was a sullen No in Quebec just about 20 years ago. The appetite for separation from Canada there these days seems to be very light, as the recent elections have shown. Differentiation is the thing there - and you do see it immediately when you cross over from Ottawa. If No does squeeze past it should surely not be beyond the wit of our Westminster politicians to come up with something that will put the issue to bed for a good time. None of us want to go through all of this again!

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Y0kel said:

    Topping

    The other night I made it clear that there are files for investigation on republicans over the abuse of children as well as a near existential threat to the UVF from police investigations and asked the question, do we just drop them then.

    Your answer was yes.

    Maybe you didn't get the context but your answer was a yes.

    (snipped for length)

    We haven't got that because too many people in London were in thrall to the gunmen turned suit wearers. I hardly know a bod ever here who really believes the Republicans can properly turn the tap on.

    Over here we seem less afraid than you guys across the water do.

    I don't think they're afraid of that. Think honey traps.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Mr. Observer, Cameron has not kept out of the wider debate, but the vote is by Scots and about Scotland's future, so it would be daft to have Cameron as the unionist voice in a debate against Salmond as that would paint No as English and yes as Scottish, whereas both sides are fronted (rightly) by Scots.

    Difference is MD that YES is fronted by Denis Canavan, so why does Flipper Darling want to debate with Alex Salmond. You guys do not even understand who the players are. Alex Salmond has as much to do with YES as Cameron has with NO.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    DavidL said:

    Mr. Observer, Cameron has not kept out of the wider debate, but the vote is by Scots and about Scotland's future, so it would be daft to have Cameron as the unionist voice in a debate against Salmond as that would paint No as English and yes as Scottish, whereas both sides are fronted (rightly) by Scots.

    I agree. My point was that if being English precludes someone from participating in a debate about the break-up of a 300 year old country that England is a part of - especially when that person is the PM of said country (not England) - then it is best to begin the divorce proceedings as soon as possible because the country has no future.
    I agree but I also agree that Labour voters hold the key to the referendum. One of the tragedies of this is that we have a Labour leader who inspires no respect, affection or frankly even interest north of the border (or really anywhere else so far as I can see). I think this means that the PM of the United Kingdom must make the case despite the risks and the nature of the target group.

    Yup, EdM is completely uninspiring. But I guess from Scotland everything to do with the Westminster system is. It does look like the current model is reaching the end of the road whatever happens in September.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    DavidL said:

    I find Jon Snow's opinion that the quality of the debate in the Scottish Indy referendum has been high quite bizarre. It has been truly terrible, and from both sides.

    The SNP campaign has been a fiasco with so many mistakes, fantasies and plain dishonesty that an even vaguely inquiring media would have completely demolished them by now. But so many people are scared of the consequences of being seen to be on one side of the argument or the other that they have largely got away with it.

    The Better Together campaign has become obsessed with demonstrating the latest idiocy by Salmond (the speech in Europe being the latest) that they frequently forget that they have a campaign to fight themselves. They have also shouted "wolf" and "end of the world as we know it" so many times that it is clearly losing effectiveness.

    Scots generally are stuck in the middle of this conversation of the deaf. They really don't like being lectured about all the things they supposedly won't be able to do that so many small countries clearly can. Some of the opinions from south of the border are deeply patronising and irritating. But they are not being offered a credible future either by a pan-glossian campaign that seems increasingly disconnected with reality.

    I personally think that Better Together must accentuate the positive in these last few months. They must emphasise all the things that Scotland gets out of being a part of a larger, successful economy, a political player in the world and the EU and from our integrated institutions. If they continue to simply point out that Salmond is wrong about almost everything they could lose.

    The worst case scenario, which seems increasingly likely to me, is that there is a sullen and reluctant no by the narrowest of margins resolving nothing going forward.

    david, you have no excuse being local to not understand that the SNP is not the YES campaign. There is plenty of good material to be found if you are interested and many many meetings to attend. You need to want to get the truth though. I would love to hear of these great things we get from the union , over two years and still no benefits can be shown. EU especially , extra payments for Scotland rerouted to England, recent discussions where the minister inadvertently used the wrong notes and stuffed Scotland. There is no positive story for Better Together , hence they are floundering and losing as crying wolf all the times is not a great strategy.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. G, really? Given Salmond led the party that won a majority whose raison d'etre is to have a vote to get independence I must say that your comparison of Salmond and Cameron for Yes and No (respectively) is just not valid.

    As for 'You guys' (the English), I think you're right. The English don't know as much about the debate as the Scots, which makes it all the more transparently silly buggers that Salmond wants to debate an evil Englishman instead of someone who actually has a vote.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    that would paint No as English and yes as Scottish

    Hence the SNP's enthusiasm for such a debate.....Has Salmond agreed to debate Darling yet?

    Why would he debate with Darling, Denis Canavan is Darling's equivalent in YES and Darling is scared to face the ex Labour MP , who unlike Darling did not fiddle expenses.
This discussion has been closed.